Leveling init for dodge is never worth it -- best case scenario, with max roll of 6, you're getting 1 MDEF -- BUT(!!) it's conditional on being full fatigue. So then you're forced to take relentless to post-hoc justify the init, which commits a precious perk to justify an already-meh strategy. Dodge on its own is a good idea, especially for a nimble brother. It's one of the strongest perks in the game. But then just level a mix of MDEF and RDEF. The actual build is switch out Relentless/Overwhelm for Quick Hands/Fearsome. Much, much better build with way higher utility--you can carry a billhook for single-target dmg, a warscythe for AOE, and a whip for disarms, hot-swapping as needed. This build as presented, is a late-game luxury build when your team is already stacked with levels and famed gear, and can therefore afford to absorb the ineffectiveness of a poor backline build. In the early or midgame, before you're on cruise control, relentless is an absolute waste of a perk; you'd much, much rather have quickhands or gifted.
@@CarveaHole Right on brother. I realize in retrospect, I parachuted into an old video and made what could be construed as a very critical comment. I appreciate the willingness to forgive and update one's game knowledge over time.
I enjoy having 2 or more scythers as backliners with overwhelm + fearsome perks. In this case, I pump matk, innitiative AND resolve instead of mdef. Sometimes fatigue/resolve - if I want to spam aoe with warscythe. That's a lot of morale checks and overwhelm debuffs. Of course we need to be more careful with keeping the distance...
5 initiative is 0.75 mdef when at 0 fatigue, so usually I'd only take ini over mdef on dodge builds only when I rolled 1 for mdef but not otherwise if I plan on levelling mdef at all
I think the difference is small enough to where it doesn't matter too much, mostly because the added bonus of having high init means more. You're not wrong, so I should've articulated better in the video.
That's how i have been building them, though I wonder about anticipation, +10 minimum range defense is nothing to scoff at in combination with dodge you don't even need a shield. Also i wonder about BF because i feel sometimes you don't even need FAT and keeping it low isn't all that bad cause it kinda works with dodge and maybe don't need relentless... kinda maybe?
A 5 ini roll doesn't even give you 1 additional mdef with dodge, so it's not really the same. Don't get me wrong, I like taking about two to three 5 ini rolls with my polearms so I get to go before enemies with overwhelm by having slightly over 130 raw ini. I'm really confused that you're not using the hyena fur attachment though, it's usually what puts me over the top to reach that 126 ini I need to go before mercenaries and frenzied hyenas.
No it's not, but I think it's close enough and the actual initiative bonus makes me favor it over raw mdef. Really these guys don't get hit in melee so having 15 from dodge or 20 from mdef doesn't make a huge difference in my eyes. As to why I'm not using hyena attachments - I'm stingy and waiting for better armor. I also think I didn't find many hyenas this playthrough. I would use it if I was swimming in pelts and not lazy.
@@CarveaHole ah ok, makes sense though I'm not entirely on board with the mdef. But that's probably due to me building polearms to be able to fill in the gaps and tank for a few turns if thing get dire in huge fights. Anyways, thanks for the reply!
@@CarveaHole I also no longer give them rotate, but my frontliners usually have it. Often times it's also more about jumping into the frenzy to divert enemies rather than just rotate them in.I actually skip recover on the backliners because between their 80-90 and pathfinder they rarely run out of stam when the fight isn't already won. For huge fights and library/ monolith there's potions if really necessary. Colossus - Pathfinder - Dodge - Relentless - Polearm - overwhelm - berserk - nimble - fearsome - killing frenzy is how I currently build promising polearm candidates.
I'm not sure why you would take Recover on a billhook bro. They can only ever hit twice with Berserk, and won't need FAT for anything else. It doesn't make sense to me, especially on a nimble bro.
You shouldn't. I got that guy early within the first 10 days and was probably considering making him into a frontliner at the time. I think recover is a very bad choice for that build, hence why I don't mention it as part of the build when I discuss perks.
I personally don't put dodge on my backliners anymore, since i would rather have rotate. I've also been experementing with a polearm, whip build where i don't use PF and rotate/dodge.
Polearm whip seems really weak to me because you can't disarm and strike in the same turn. Your experiment build sounds like a bannerman but using a billhook instead of the banner. What do you use rotate for? Getting people out of trouble?
Please guys if you are trying to optimize your build don't listen to this guy - contrary to what he says initiative does not give anywhere near as much mdef as investing directly in mdef - in fact a max roll in ini gives only 0.75 mdef while a max roll in mdef gives 3mdef - literally 4x the mdef... (and ini will drop as your guy gets fatigued as it is tied to dodge... So actually you probably get about 8x as much mdef investing in mdef directly vs investing in ini). With 10 level ups the difference is 3-7.5mdef with ini lvls vs 30mdef with mdef lvls, and people often talk about how good gifted is for only giving 3 mdef, so this should give you all you need to know re how bad his advice is.
I think this video is great about optimizing the backliner but the backliner is a mid tier build lol. Yeah my math was based on feel more than stats. Thank you for clarifying it for viewers :)
@@CarveaHole well now after reading my comment back I feel like like an a-hole lol, my bad. I do think an overwhelm backliner is good, but with less investment in ini ie 105-110 ini at start of battle (after drop from gear) as this gets ahead of almost all enemies you care about.
What about like Battle Forged backliners that can be good for rotating if needed when your frontlines took a bad hit or cant reach a important target and tanking hits in the process i think yours is better but i definitely have some bf backliners
He mentioned it, but I agree that fearsome and overwhelm both excel with aoe attacks. Especially with the swordlance that doesn't always do massive hp dmg with its aoe against chosen or orc warriors, but can still trigger morale checks while applying the overwhelm debuff. Not the biggest fan of overwhelm on a single target billhook, too I admit, outside of very few, very tough enemies it's pretty mediocre in my experience. It's the main reason why I run swordlances and use overwhelm as well as fearsome on all of them. I also find fat very important to level, it's why wildmen are also super good with swordlances imo. So matt>fat>mdef>ini imo. Basically taking all the high rolls (matt and ideally fat should have stars anyways). I don't claim that it's objectively the best way to build, but personally I have lots of good experiences with this.
If I made this guy more recently than I did (a few months ago) I would've had fearsome on him. Fortunately his weapon does enough to often proc morale hits anyway. I'd pass on overwhelm on billhooks, so fearsome is better of the two as it's more general. But they each have their own place and I talk about it in the video.
Leveling init for dodge is never worth it -- best case scenario, with max roll of 6, you're getting 1 MDEF -- BUT(!!) it's conditional on being full fatigue. So then you're forced to take relentless to post-hoc justify the init, which commits a precious perk to justify an already-meh strategy.
Dodge on its own is a good idea, especially for a nimble brother. It's one of the strongest perks in the game. But then just level a mix of MDEF and RDEF.
The actual build is switch out Relentless/Overwhelm for Quick Hands/Fearsome. Much, much better build with way higher utility--you can carry a billhook for single-target dmg, a warscythe for AOE, and a whip for disarms, hot-swapping as needed.
This build as presented, is a late-game luxury build when your team is already stacked with levels and famed gear, and can therefore afford to absorb the ineffectiveness of a poor backline build. In the early or midgame, before you're on cruise control, relentless is an absolute waste of a perk; you'd much, much rather have quickhands or gifted.
Yeah if I had to redo the video I'd make your points for the most part.
@@CarveaHole Right on brother. I realize in retrospect, I parachuted into an old video and made what could be construed as a very critical comment. I appreciate the willingness to forgive and update one's game knowledge over time.
@@wkatz0 Cheers bro. Thanks for that :)
Dope idea
How much Rdef are you going on archer and backliner
Love this game been playing it for like 1 or 2 hour a day for a couple of years. My last team is about a year old.
I enjoy having 2 or more scythers as backliners with overwhelm + fearsome perks. In this case, I pump matk, innitiative AND resolve instead of mdef. Sometimes fatigue/resolve - if I want to spam aoe with warscythe. That's a lot of morale checks and overwhelm debuffs. Of course we need to be more careful with keeping the distance...
5 initiative is 0.75 mdef when at 0 fatigue, so usually I'd only take ini over mdef on dodge builds only when I rolled 1 for mdef but not otherwise if I plan on levelling mdef at all
I think the difference is small enough to where it doesn't matter too much, mostly because the added bonus of having high init means more. You're not wrong, so I should've articulated better in the video.
i want to tank you soo much, my polearms/crosbows are soo good and flexible. Tank you so much.
That's how i have been building them, though I wonder about anticipation, +10 minimum range defense is nothing to scoff at in combination with dodge you don't even need a shield. Also i wonder about BF because i feel sometimes you don't even need FAT and keeping it low isn't all that bad cause it kinda works with dodge and maybe don't need relentless... kinda maybe?
BF is bad because you won't have enough BF armor in a normal run to give to backliners. Anticipation is probably a good choice
A 5 ini roll doesn't even give you 1 additional mdef with dodge, so it's not really the same.
Don't get me wrong, I like taking about two to three 5 ini rolls with my polearms so I get to go before enemies with overwhelm by having slightly over 130 raw ini. I'm really confused that you're not using the hyena fur attachment though, it's usually what puts me over the top to reach that 126 ini I need to go before mercenaries and frenzied hyenas.
No it's not, but I think it's close enough and the actual initiative bonus makes me favor it over raw mdef. Really these guys don't get hit in melee so having 15 from dodge or 20 from mdef doesn't make a huge difference in my eyes. As to why I'm not using hyena attachments - I'm stingy and waiting for better armor. I also think I didn't find many hyenas this playthrough. I would use it if I was swimming in pelts and not lazy.
@@CarveaHole ah ok, makes sense though I'm not entirely on board with the mdef. But that's probably due to me building polearms to be able to fill in the gaps and tank for a few turns if thing get dire in huge fights. Anyways, thanks for the reply!
@@couchpotatoe91 yeah I don't give these guys rotate so they'd can tank for like 1-2 turns but I don't rely on having to do it.
@@CarveaHole I also no longer give them rotate, but my frontliners usually have it. Often times it's also more about jumping into the frenzy to divert enemies rather than just rotate them in.I actually skip recover on the backliners because between their 80-90 and pathfinder they rarely run out of stam when the fight isn't already won. For huge fights and library/ monolith there's potions if really necessary.
Colossus - Pathfinder - Dodge - Relentless - Polearm - overwhelm - berserk - nimble - fearsome - killing frenzy
is how I currently build promising polearm candidates.
@@couchpotatoe91 I mean that's literally the build I described in the video lol. I guess I said "you could go gifted".
I'm not sure why you would take Recover on a billhook bro. They can only ever hit twice with Berserk, and won't need FAT for anything else.
It doesn't make sense to me, especially on a nimble bro.
You shouldn't. I got that guy early within the first 10 days and was probably considering making him into a frontliner at the time. I think recover is a very bad choice for that build, hence why I don't mention it as part of the build when I discuss perks.
6:28 I mean, this is kind of false. In a long, stretched out battle Dodge will lose value, whereas melee defense is constant.
Dodge won't lose that much value (maybe 3-5 def?), albeit losing any value is worse than mdef's static value.
I personally don't put dodge on my backliners anymore, since i would rather have rotate. I've also been experementing with a polearm, whip build where i don't use PF and rotate/dodge.
Polearm whip seems really weak to me because you can't disarm and strike in the same turn. Your experiment build sounds like a bannerman but using a billhook instead of the banner.
What do you use rotate for? Getting people out of trouble?
@@CarveaHole for positioning. For example if i want to hit someone but i can't reach them, nor walk over there because there is someone in the way.
Please guys if you are trying to optimize your build don't listen to this guy - contrary to what he says initiative does not give anywhere near as much mdef as investing directly in mdef - in fact a max roll in ini gives only 0.75 mdef while a max roll in mdef gives 3mdef - literally 4x the mdef... (and ini will drop as your guy gets fatigued as it is tied to dodge... So actually you probably get about 8x as much mdef investing in mdef directly vs investing in ini). With 10 level ups the difference is 3-7.5mdef with ini lvls vs 30mdef with mdef lvls, and people often talk about how good gifted is for only giving 3 mdef, so this should give you all you need to know re how bad his advice is.
I think this video is great about optimizing the backliner but the backliner is a mid tier build lol. Yeah my math was based on feel more than stats. Thank you for clarifying it for viewers :)
@@CarveaHole well now after reading my comment back I feel like like an a-hole lol, my bad. I do think an overwhelm backliner is good, but with less investment in ini ie 105-110 ini at start of battle (after drop from gear) as this gets ahead of almost all enemies you care about.
What about like Battle Forged backliners that can be good for rotating if needed when your frontlines took a bad hit or cant reach a important target and tanking hits in the process i think yours is better but i definitely have some bf backliners
Nimble armor can tank for a turn, and it allows for init and more stam. I think BF is unnecessary for the moves you're describing.
Does this backliner initiarive is better than hybrid backliner?
I like my hybrids more but when you don't find bros with the stats needed this is the next best thing.
First!!!
Thanks for the tip sir.
No fearsome on swordlance :[
He mentioned it, but I agree that fearsome and overwhelm both excel with aoe attacks. Especially with the swordlance that doesn't always do massive hp dmg with its aoe against chosen or orc warriors, but can still trigger morale checks while applying the overwhelm debuff.
Not the biggest fan of overwhelm on a single target billhook, too I admit, outside of very few, very tough enemies it's pretty mediocre in my experience. It's the main reason why I run swordlances and use overwhelm as well as fearsome on all of them. I also find fat very important to level, it's why wildmen are also super good with swordlances imo. So matt>fat>mdef>ini imo. Basically taking all the high rolls (matt and ideally fat should have stars anyways).
I don't claim that it's objectively the best way to build, but personally I have lots of good experiences with this.
If I made this guy more recently than I did (a few months ago) I would've had fearsome on him. Fortunately his weapon does enough to often proc morale hits anyway.
I'd pass on overwhelm on billhooks, so fearsome is better of the two as it's more general. But they each have their own place and I talk about it in the video.