Ordinary People (Movie Analysis) | Was Dr. Berger a Good Therapist?
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- Опубліковано 31 лип 2024
- This video answers the question: Can I analyze mental health and personality factors in the 1980 film “Ordinary People?”
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American Psychiatric Association. (2013). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed.). Arlington, VA: Author.
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Not many movies age this well. Still a great watch after 40 years!
@Ozymandias Nullifidian Ja, ja, but it's Danish. Next watch The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, from about that same era.
Yessss. I just watched this movie for the first time weeks ago. Great movie
@Ozymandias Nullifidian wow that is truly interesting. I graduated with my master's degree in clinical mental health counseling back in May and this movie was one of the options to do a paper on for a family therapy class. But my group did ours on the movie soul food which has great family themes for a rich discussion as well ; )
yes
I've never forgotten this movie - Timothy Hutton is amazing. The scene where his mother won't stand next to him during a family photo is heartbreaking. Something I can relate to.
It's so hard to grieve as a family when we each grieve in our own ways.
I was thinking that the other day. Like, I’m
At the point that I love talking about my mom but when I do, my siblings say nothing back. So it’s like I’m reminiscing alone. Took me until this year (6 years since my mom died) to figure this out. It’s tough but yeah.
@@teresahowick5197 How horrible. I'm sorry you're going through that. That's the type of scenario I was thinking about.
Ozymandias Nullifidian I’m talking about families....in the same society....grieving differently from each other. Say a mom and dad lose their child, and one wants to talk about memories, but the other can’t bare to. 2 different grieving styles, neither of which is “wrong” but can cause issues. The mom may, for example, think her husband is being cold, when in reality it simply hurts him too much to talk about it, then causing marital issues. Another....I was traumatized at 11 for being forced to go to a viewing of a young girl in my church. There are some I can handle enough, and some that I cannot even go to. Then my family thinks I’m an asshole, when, sorry, but a viewing is YOUR way of grieving, but can be detrimental to my mental health. So, again, it can be hard to grieve as a family when we each grieve in our own ways.
Ozymandias Nullifidian Seeing the ways different cultures handle death is pretty fascinating, isn’t it? In the US, one thing that is common is to have a memorial service with a “viewing” of a deceased individual in a casket sometimes in a church or a funeral home before the actual funeral where in which the person is buried. When I was 11, a 16 yr old girl I had just spent a lot of time with on a church youth retreat passed away. My parents made me go to the viewing (at the church) when I begged them not to. It was an image thing. “Oh, no, what will people say about us if our 11 yr old doesn’t go to the viewing of a young girl.” The horror...sarcasm. A couple years ago, as an adult now, I couldn’t bring myself to go to another Aunt’s viewing. My family thought I was uncaring for not conforming to this societal expectation.
Yeah the death of a child not infrequently results in divorce because men and women tend to have different grieving styles.
Calvin's backstory, which you only know if you have read the book, is HUGE. He was orphaned and never had a family as a child - hence his Herculean, and futile, efforts to keep his family together as an adult. This film was so important to me as a child. For the first time, I realized that my belief that my mother was incapable of loving me was not my imagination. MTM WAS my mother. I still watch this movie regularly because it's so cathartic. I just wish I had had a Dr. Berger (or a Dr. Grande) in my life.
Me too!
I just re-watched. MTM-as Beth-the embodiment of the cold bitch mother-THAT was when, at 21, I first recognized my own mother..and maybe it WASNT me.. huge turning point that led me to therapy.
“ I love you Beth..But you’re COLD”..
F U Marilyn
Touche ! MTM was the embodiment of my mother. In this movie
The Beth character is also very similar to my own mother and was the impetus for my anorexia (that I suffered from for over a decade). I was fortunate to have a Dr. Berger/Dr. Grande as my long-term psychoanalyst and he helped me realize that she could never love me the way I needed and asked for. It's such a painful journey, and not receiving the love and acceptance from your own mother is a wound that cuts incredibly deep.
@@SummaGirl1347 it was kind of strange for me seeing MTM in this role, since I grew up seeing her in the role of Mary Richards, who was a very kind and nurturing type of character.
What stood out to me was that Beth was such a cold mother that she didn’t see the suffering of her youngest son - in the trauma he had endured from going through the accident itself, from seeing his older brother, whom he also greatly loved and admired, die, and from the survivors guilt he felt and the effect that had on him. She could only see her own suffering. She couldn’t even see her husband’s suffering. As Conrad finally came to understand with Dr Berger’s help, what he had done wrong was that he’d hung on, i.e., survived.
That was the most intense -"I hung on," 😭
I couldn't watch but I gave a thumbs up. When I was 3, I saw my brother,5, run over/dragged by a streetcleaner. That was the day I became invisible. My father said it should've been me, how much he wanted to kill me and tried often (said til I ran from home) My mom hid in a bottle and never once protected me. We made peace a couple years ago and are good friends now. With your style, I'm positive you did an excellent exploration of facts with OCEAN thrown in for good measure. I've had decades of therapy but wish I could find one with your style. I broke the cycle in my family so it has a happy ending. I'll be a work in progress forever. Almost succeeded in suicide. Life support, coma. I'm so grateful I lived. Now I do peer to peer support. Thank you for all you do Dr. Grande.
Good for you. You're very, very brave.
@@JohnPaul-le4pf Thank you for your kind words. I don't think I was brave. More like primal survival. I saved mom's life (literally) many times. I was the adult with her. I was sure my father would kill me. He hated me with a fury. I'm not sure if others who do what it takes to break the cycle are scarred and complicated decades later. It feels like the throw away generation. I made huge waves and now I'm paying for that. At least mom and I made peace. She realized a lot of things, like never being my mom. She even said "You were all alone." Not many get the chance to make peace. We're best friends now. I haven't seen my father since mom's case against him. I was the star witness. His lawyer said I had to be lying as I wasn't emotional. When I came out of the bathroom I saw him and his lawyer. I lost it. It took 3 large people to hold me back. For once, I saw terror in his eyes.
@@Meowziez
Wow. You have an amazing story.
And you are brave.
Children shouldn't have to be brave.
@@CC-xn5xi Excellent statement! Children shouldn't have to be brave... They should be loved.
Ordinary People is both a very good book and movie, and I found the doctor's role very interesting. His best line was, in my opinion, "If you can't feel pain, you can't feel anything else, either."
Ordinary People; narcissistic mother: cold, distant, disapproving. She resents her not favorite son for being the one who survived instead of the gold child that made her proud. Superficial woman and perfectionist, her surviving son putting a wrinkle in her life by having mental health issues. Not a warm, affectionate and consoling/comforting mother. The enabling father finally realizes that this woman is incapable of loving and leaves her especially for the sake of his son. One of the best movies on maternal narcissism.
+
" Catch me of you can " mother ( that destroyed life and busines of her husband , by putting her fantasy demands on him - and triggering in him a feeling of Inadequacies ...so he destroyed himself before realising that.)znd $h€ already had plan B ( as narcissists always do)....
" A prozzac nation "
( controlling, selfabsorbed and intrusive mother with poor feeling for daughter's boundaries or life
and aditionaly - caused )?) BPD daughter
that almost destroyed a life of her young dating student ).
"2 1/2 men"
Evelyn Harper and
Charlie Harper
and ...pos. Judith.
Bunch of modern positive well off ...
people.
...
Lol...
My take on Beth was that Buck was her favorite and this was why she was so cold and distant toward Conrad.
I think that many families can resort to blaming when an accidental death occurs (or even a suicide). It's good to seek the help of a professional counselor to help a family through something like this.
Beth was a narcissistic mom
Diana Marie I have not seen the movie since it came out, but I agree with you. Sometimes parents have a favorite, and I thought Beth favored the son that died. Mary Tyler Moore did a great job in that role. She was excellent.
yup she hated Conrad because it wasn't he who died...if he had, as the scapegoat, her shame would have died with him, at least in her illusory world. Also, as Conrad is the scapegoat, she puts the blame on him for his brother's death, even though it wasn't his fault, it WAS his fault because she thinks it should have been him. because that's just how narcs minds' work.
Yes, I feel Beth not only blamed Conrad for attempting to take his own life, thereby upsetting what she thought was a perfect life, but she also blamed Conrad for Buck's death as well. She would've preferred Conrad had died instead of Buck, if she had to make the choice.
Ugh this movie resonates with me. I lost two brothers at a young age. We weren't allowed to talk about it back then. My adult life, it turns out was plagued with PTSD. I ended up in long term counseling and antidepressants. I'm now older but better mentally. There is hope for those that have experienced great loss.
Everyone loved affable, handsome, athletic, Buck. The golden boy. Even Conrad. He wasn’t envious or jealous. The accident was the sailboat tipped over, and Buck couldn’t hold on as long as Conrad could. So, Buck, in essence, failed, and Conrad proved “better” than his older brother.
It’s a very sad movie. MTM gave a terrifying performance. She’s not a monster, and not really manipulative. But she’s cold, and angry, and hurting, and she misses Buck, and she doesn’t really love Conrad unconditionally as she does Buck.
The cork is in very tight on her bottle.
Years ago I took a Death and Dying class when I was getting my BS Degree at University of Maryland. The professor had us watch this movie, and we had some very enlightening conversations afterwards.
Beth viewed Buck as the Golden Child. Conrad was viewed as the Scapegoat. Overall this is very common in families. Ordinary People is one of my favorite movies.
True! I think Beth's narcissism is the real cause of many problems that were there before the accident and resurfaced more visibly in a different form after the accident. Her insistence on projecting the image of a picture-perfect family to the outside world indicates that she is incapable to deal in depth with her son's problems, and the possibility that she had made a wide range of mistakes in child-raising as a stay-at-home parent. This is the case of how misfortune can change the family relationships/dynamic, in this case, it was first, for the worse (suicide attempt), and thereafter, for the better. Healthy relationships survive, and become healthier and deeper: Conrad deepens the relationship with his father. The narcissistic mother gets isolated and gets out of the way.
In the real world, narcissistic mothers usually poison the whole family, it takes decades for the family members to realize the damage, at that time it is too late; the intergenerational progress is impeded
or impossible.
@@TheSahand68 Spot on. You nailed the summary perfectly 👍🏽💯
@@AirForceFalcons_9922 I'm just watching those videos about NPD ...
Lifechangig!
Marina Udovcic Also, in the one flashback we see of Buck where Beth is also present, how does she act towards Buck? Not like a mother, much more like an adoring schoolgirl. When you raise the possibility of Beth making mistakes in raising her children, my mind goes right to this scene as Exhibit A in support of your theory.
@@MightyJackServo I saw the movie many years ago ... but, if she is acting as a schoolgirl towards her own male child, that might indicate her problems in her relationship with her husband ... I remember feeling sorry for the father, played by Sutherland, he was a hardworking men, deeply committed to the wellbeing of his family and truly trying to do his best ... turned out that this all those decades of commitment, hard work, doing the right thing did not pay full dividends ... he chose Beth who was a wrong partner to build life with ... he was building the house on quick sand ... life with a narc is total input zero output ... luckily he was able to cut the crap, take out the chaff and grow the weed ... I saw it happening in real life also, but very often, when irrevrsable damage already occured ... a good therapist who understands parental narcissism can spot the problem fast which can help ... teacher aacc in schools should also get more training in mental health disorders ..
"Ordinary People" is not a movie. It's a Transformative Experience. Forty years later, and my opinion has not changed. (I was 20 when I saw it; I turn 60 this year.) "Schindler's List" is also a Transformative Experience.
"Schindler's List" totally transformed my life. I have shown it dozens and dozens of times to my high school students over the years.....I am 65.
It took me like 11 years to see Schindler's List. I didn't want to put myself through that after having seen a concentration camp documentary, Night and Fog, by Alain Resnais I think it was. I was pretty messed up by that movie and wanted no more of that.
I completely agree with you. I watched this masterpiece during my B.A in social work 22 y ago. I still remember the emotional storm I felt inside. This movie touches the heart. Unforgettable
@@kkheflin3 Typical of a teacher to not know truth from fiction. Did you not research the true story of Mr Schindler, because his very wife and family told a much different story. So you sold fiction as fact to generations of kids. Can we have our money back?
Mary Tyler Moore's performance in this movie is chilling. I too watched this film in an English class while in High School. I remember being shocked at Mary Tyler Moore's character. It was unnerving, even for a teen aged me.
I went to the theater in the 80's when it came out when I was 14 maybe......
I'm 53'and it still is one of my favorite films.
I disliked "Ordinary People" for the same reason. Beth was way to much like my own mom.
@@longwhitemaneBack when this movie came out I was in a lot of 12 step programs in NYC. Everyone in "the rooms" was talking about this movie.
@@longwhitemane Oh geez! So sorry to hear that.
I disliked her character because it reminded me of a family member.
I started to watch your analysis, but I didn't want the spoilers, so I watched the film for the first time tonight. I loved it! It is well-written, well-directed, and well-acted. Calvin is my favorite character, too. I find it refreshing that the father is so caring.
Likewise, I find the character Beth interesting. She is cold and emotionally unavailable. It's like she won't allow herself to feel what she's feeling. Then, when Conrad hugs her and she won't hug him back....it left me breathless.
I think this was one of Donald Sutherland’s best roles. It was nuanced and sensitive. Interesting to analyze a therapeutic movie role. Good analysis as usual Dr. Grande.
Donald Sutherland is such an under-rated actor. :)
Sutherland can so easily and effectively play an unlikeable, strange character it was wonderful to see him play a character like this.
@@theresazubia I think Donald Sutherland has only ever been underrated by the general public. However, i would say that other actors have always seen him as an actor's actor, that is, he is indeed a great actor. A superlative one in the craft.
I totally agree! DS is so under rated, especially in this movie. He was the only one out of the four main characters who wasn't nominated for the Oscar that year. To me, his part was the hardest to play, and as always, he did so with such understated brilliance.
He was fantastic in this role.
I disagree with you about Beth. It was clear from many of the flashbacks, that Buck was her favorite. Conrad was her child. What she couldn’t forgive Conrad for, was not that he made a mess of her carpet, but that he had survived, and Buck died. She left because Calvin saw who she really was. She knew that Calvin loved his son,. and was unwilling to abandon him. Conrad did try to reach out to her, but she had no love for him. Conrad met the friend that killed herself in the mental institution.
^ This!
If I were to summarize this movie in diagnostic terms, I'd say that Conrad already knows and Calvin eventually learns see Beth for who she really is -- a covert (fragile/vulnerable) narcissist; and, each of them separately unmask Beth as such, which prompts her to leave because facing the truth about herself is just too painful. If I were to write a sequel, I'd show Beth in Houston using her beauty, talents and charm in a predatory way to seduce her next victim aka boyfriend/husband and surround herself with people who reflect back to her the "as if" personality she wants them to see/experience. As Calvin observed during his one and only session w/ Dr. Berger, ironically, Beth's struggles w/ Conrad were because he was a lot like his mother. Conrad's suicide attempt started his differentiation from his mother and his journey to grow beyond that. When Conrad starts therapy, he still can't tolerate feeling his feelings, having been conditioned to avoid them by his mother's angry, shame-based reactions and by her example and his father's peace-making efforts. Through therapy, however, Conrad achieves significant personal growth, including being able to tolerate what he inherently wants and needs -- to be able to tolerate experiencing and expressing his emotions. His girlfriend also helps him do this. His mother, however, stays stuck in her inability to do so as well as her inability to tolerate her husband and son doing so. In the 2nd to last scene, when Beth discovers Calvin crying in the dining room, Calvin completes unmasking her covert (fragile/vulnerable) narcissistic personality disorder to her. Rather than moving towards him, as she did when he confronted her in the garage in a previous scene, she turns away, returns to their bedroom and packs her bags to leave. Having been seen by now both Conrad and Calvin for who she really is, she decides she must flee. In the last scene, both Calvin and Conrad demonstrate their mutual capacities to feel and express a full range of human emotions -- e.g., anger, love, understanding, compassion, forgiveness, acceptance of each other and tears (grief) -- thereby, connecting with each other in a deeper and far more authentic way than Beth could or will ever be able to do due to her narcissistic personality disorder. That last scene also shows that Conrad was able to grow throughout the movie beyond the emotionally and developmentally stunted place he and his mother had each been in to become a "healthy" and more fully functional person, which is realistic since he was still an adolescent.
Oh yes, when Conrad hugs Beth, her expression is stunning because it burst her illusion that she "really loved him" when she didn't; and...that he hated her. She HAD to feel like he had been trying to ruin HER life in order to justify her resentment of him. Buck was the "golden child."
@@ronricherson6685 I didn't see that Conrad hated his mother. He was the first to see her for who she really is and challenged his father, Calvin, to also see that painful and scary truth. That's why Beth devalued and gaslit Conrad and refused to see Dr. Berger. And, once she heard that her husband, Calvin, could see the truth about her, she had to leave, to escape that her son and husband had unmasked her. They both had stopped seeing her "as if" personality -- her mask. She was too fragile -- as Calvin said in the 2nd to last scene, not strong -- to cope with the truth, i.e., real feelings about Buck's death, her own, Calvin's or Conrad's and the same regarding the realization of her narcissistic personality disorder.
Thanks for that, I think you misread what i was saying. Beth had to have the sense that Conrad was ruining HER life instead of owning her feelings It was her ILLUSION that all of his behavior was intentional and directed at her-- "Conrad is doing this because he hates me." That's a general implication, but I'm basically saying, as you did, that Beth is a narcissist. As Calvin told her at one point in the movie (the golf course, and I'm paraphrasing), "Why do always have to see things as they affect you?" And masks indeed. They are designed to protect the weak, who work so hard to appear strong. I can relate to Conrad; I'm a lot like him and had a mother somewhat like Beth. I saw this movie in the theatre in 1981. It truly affected me! Thank goodness it was re-released after it won Best Picture otherwise I may never have seen it.
Donald Sutherland's character is my hero in this movie. It's on Pluto TV. It's one of my comfort movies.
Friendship: the best form of therapy!
It’s a highly relevant film that I feel is ageless.
My parents TO-A-TEE. I was in HS when this came out and I remember my parents quarreling over it. I think it was my father's comment that MTMs hairstyle looked like my mom's that didn't go well at all, and it spiraled from there. Great job as usual Dr. Grande
This is one of my all-time favorite movies, ever since I was in high school. My family has dealt with a lot of tragic loss (both accidents and suicide) and mental illness. I identified so much with Conrad as a teenager, and I identify with him now in my 30s. I'm very lucky in the sense that both my parents were like Calvin, although I know many Beths in my family and friend group. This movie is not one I can watch a lot because it gets to be a bit triggering if I am not in a great place mentally. It's been almost 3 years since my last suicide attempt and it's been almost 5 since I last self-harmed. I very much keep Conrad in my heart, and I like to think I live my life and persevere the way he might've after the movie. Thanks again for your videos!
I’m so happy you’re still here. So sorry for all your losses.
I get suicidal too and made attempts. its really important to focus on how emotions DO change with time and the agony you are in when suicidal is the wrong time to make ANY decision. i hope and pray that you will be okay. You touched me today
I hear you on the triggering. I lost my husband in 2003 to suicide with three teenagers to finish raising. I suffer from bipolar disorder which fortunately has been well maintained for ten or so years. Still....when you have first hand experience with "real life" it is tough. This movie is just too depressing for me. I can see the value in it for many however.
I identified with him a great deal too. I can't watch it again, though I watched it like five times the week it came out. It's too close for comfort, and I don't want to relive those awful days.
Great point...I think that's why Conrad wanted to back to the hospital--he was probably able to express his feelings there.
Thank you for helping me understand this movie better than I ever have. 😊 I don't remember when I saw "Ordinary People," but the character of Beth was maddening for me. It seemed like the writers gave Beth all of my mother's worst traits: keeping everything private, a simmering rage just below the surface, & her inability to express that rage. My mom would give me the silent treatment and withhold affection for months at a time. I want movies to be entertaining, not remind me of what I have to deal with in real life.
She reminded me very strongly of my mom too, but that is the reason I am drawn to this movie - helped see it from a relative distance in the whole picture.
I remember how shocked we were to see MTM as a stone cold narcissist ...
Funny, I was 12 when that movie came out. I can remember Mama saying something like "Mary Tyler Moore would never act that."
God she was such an amazing actress. I was stunned she was so icy cold and almost evil.
I don’t see Beth as a full-on narcissist. She was capable of caring, just more concerned about protecting herself no matter what.
This is one of my favorite movies. The acting by Donald Sutherland, Mary Tyler Moore, and Timothy Hutton is superb.
And Judd Hirsch as well. Really Elizabeth McGovern (Jeanine Pratt) and Emmet Walsh (swimming coach) were fabulous too.
Great review of the characters! Oh how I wish we had more movies about how 'ordinary people' deal with life! Actual life has enough drama, angst, pain and joy to outweigh all the car chases and gun fights!
A whole video could be devoted to analysis of "Beth". In the movie, the more sympathetic male characters go on a journey. They have each other at the end. But, her dysfunctio is relevant, today. She wished to control others perceptions by controlling what was known. Today, social media is used to control/create perceptions. Why did Beth lacked introspection? Why did she show such favoritism to one son? What kind of abusive childhood resulted in the her stoicism? She showed anger but not hurt or fear. Wouldn't her coping/survival methods, (or lack thereof), have been established in her early life?
You should have described Beth and Calvin's fight on Golf Course in Texas..it was a PIVOTAL POINT
Yes that was a turning point for Calvin especially
Best. Movie. Ever.
I knew I had found a best friend when we discovered we had the same favorite movie. Cynthia, if you’re reading this...❤️
Thx Dr. Grande!
I’m so glad you chose this movie. It is by far my most favorite. It resonated deeply with me at a time in my life when I was going through many of the same issues. As you alluded to, every time I watched it (and there have been many), I related in some way to a different character. Excellent analysis and excellent film. It couldn’t have been cast any better either.
Back then people smoked everywhere. In the 70's I had a therapist who chain smoked.
I had a psychiatrist in the 80s that smoked cigars the entire visit.
@@mandymonroe6295 Fortunately, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
An outstanding movie!
One of my top 5 movies of all time. I especially love the movie's title because like beauty, the word "ordinary" is in the eye of the beholder. What may appear as an ordinary family from the outside, is a whole new dynamic on the inside. The mother wanted her family to appear as an "ordinary" upper middle class family to the outside, yet ironically, because of her own dysfunctional behavior, they could never be perfect - or ordinary. I feel this film should be seen at least once by everyone. They deserved every single Oscar they won ...and more. A brilliant piece of film from first-time director Robert Redford. Thank you so much, Dr. Grande! Very well done.
Clicked on this so damn fast. My therapist said that one thing this film did was help counter stereotypes of bad therapists. The book is great too.
“One flies east, one flies west, and one flies over the cuckoo’s nest” -- what a great movie LOL
My favorite film of all-time! Powerhouse performances. Excellent directing by Robert Redford. Beautiful, emotive writing. Great analysis, Dr. Grande! You never disappoint. :)
One of my all time favorite movies. I attended Lake Forest College back in the 80’s. I am very haunted by this time capsule which captures Lake Forest and its inhabitants perfectly.
I wonder if it's still like that.
YES!!!! I have been waiting and hoping for this. One of the best movies I have ever seen on family dynamics. So well done! Thanks Dr Grande 😄👍👍👍
I think Dr Berger did exactly the right thing by saying he was Conrad's friend. They had previously discussed being honest.. Conrad was feeling such despair after hearing about Karen and re living the accident with Buck.. he felt so incredibly alone. it was perfect that Dr Berger was honest and told Conrad that he was his friend. In fact it was one of my favourite scenes.
Of particular interest in this video is how grief and loss are handled. When my oldest and best friend suffered a massive stroke that left him alive but without "higher functions," and with no hope of recovery, I had several dreams in which my friend said goodbye to me. Another aspect of the video is how people in this kind of situation deal with each other. My friend's wife was absolutely consumed by anger and grief. She said she never wanted to see or hear from me again, essentially cutting me off from all contact. I don't know why this happened, as I was on the other side of the planet when the situation developed, and I have no idea how any of the family have coped or moved on. The behavior of the mother in the story, therefore, seems quite realistic to me, as does the up in the air ending.
Quite a lot to process here.
She probably never wanted to see or hear from you again because you didn't instantly jump on a plane and fly back to this side of the planet to be with your friend the day after he had the stroke. If that's what it was, it's completely unreasonable. When the stresses hit, that's when you see what people are made of (sort of, anyway).
@@mlovmo It was a lot more complicated than that. He was in Hong Kong on business when he had the stroke. She called me to tell me that from HK where she had to go to get him back. The investigation turned up something unsavory. I have no idea what, as I was cut out of the loop. I had lived and worked in Asia [not HK or SEA] and my friend and I often talked about it. I hadn't been to Asia or the Middle East for decades and was working in Boston at the time.
Whatever was uncovered she must have assumed that I was somehow involved or responsible. Plus there was all the stress and her life being ruined. I don't blame her for being upset. I've thought about sending her a letter sympathizing with her and couldn't think of a way to do so or to assure her that I was uninvolved that wouldn't just add to her distress.
@Ozymandias Nullifidian I can't think of any reason for jealousy, but anger and misplaced blame for sure.
@Jay McJakome - life is messy. I was going out with a guy when his father was killed by a shark in Mexico, the worst part wasn’t that Jaws had just come out too (and EVERYONE was talking about it), the worst part was that he was registered at the hotel as Mr & Mrs...
and Mrs was at home.
@@sherunswithscissors Yes, that's the kind of thing that happens more frequently than even Hollywood and TV dramas would have us believe. A lot of couples stay together "for the kids' sake" and put on a "perfect family" appearance for the outside world to see.
Since "business trips" are frequent and are notorious, I've been trying to think back to signs that I must have missed. The danger there is that if you look you will find and what you find could be either real or imaginary. Neither of them ever let on that anything was amiss on my rare visits.
I’d love to see your analysis of Harold and Maude!
There’s a law that s-t happens. And none of us are exempt from this law. If s-t happens to you- you may survive but you may no longer be whole. In that case, it’s patch, patch, patch...
My whole life, since seeing this film when it came out, I wished (and looked) for a psychologist like Judd Hirsch’s Dr. Berger. Still looking...
Just don’t look for friends.
I get your point about therapist/patient boundaries, but Conrad was a young man who was starved for affection and in his darkest moment, he truly needed a human hug.
Good point. I thought this as well.
I don’t think a hug is something that a therapist should be giving.
Skippy W: you're right in that hugs are not part of therapy, but sometimes you have to step outside the box in order to help someone.
@@sherunswithscissors You're probably right, but there are so many people that need just that...and won't get it anywhere else. I know that it's dangerous to cross that line but man, I wish it was something that therapists felt comfortable doing when absolutely necessary.
Enjoyed your video. Ordinary People is one of my all-time favorite films, and I certainly agree that it ages well, and it's messages are timeless. Sutherland's performance was my favorite, too.
Brilliant movie, and fascinating analysis of it. I saw it first when I was about 12. I grew up on the Mary Tyler Moore show and re=runs of the Dick Van Dyke show, so to see MTM in such a different light really blew me away. I believe she received an Oscar nomination for her performance...and she deserved it. Thank you so much for dissecting the therapist in the film. So often therapists in film or TV are portrayed so inaccurately, giving the general public a very incorrect view of what therapy is really like. I think, as you said, this film came very close to portraying therapy accurately...with some issues, as you noted. I love this movie, it’s hard to watch, but it is a beautiful film, and I think, overall, demonstrates how psychotherapy can be beneficial to people. Thank you, Dr. Grande.
"Why couldn't it have been YOU?" , was just under the surface of everything Beth said & every look she gave to Conrad. An emotionally brutal, but high quality movie There was more going on with Beth...She was trying...But loss had devastated her 'world that made sense', & she could not move from that moment. Her life ended too. TgT
This topic took me by surprise, but it was a really pleasant surprise. I saw this movie about 2 years ago. Sutherland and Moore did such a fantastic job acting in this movie, especially Moore in a fairly unflattering role that is well beyond her typical part. I enjoyed your analysis, Doc. Thank you.
I wonder how Dr Grande feelings, thoughts, ideas about the movie might have changed, since the time he first watched it as a high school student, then as a college student, then as practicing clinical psychologist.
One of my favorite movies. That one line "I'm your friend" was the thorn in my side and I'm glad to hear your professional viewpoint confirm my suspicions about it. A therapist is a *paid* professional. A relationship that depends on hire and pay can't be a real friendship. In _The Road Less Traveled_ Dr. Peck sets forth how a therapist can and should love patients, but just because it's an act of love to help someone heal doesn't mean it's not a transaction dependent on money.
Dr G, I so agree with your comment that therapists are not friends to their clients. Good analysis again!!👍
This was a fascinating film when it came out. I studied psychodrama back then and found the therapy scenes very dynamic. Different roles for the actors. Unique movie.
Love Dr Grande 💕🙏
I thought this was one of the top 5 best films I’ve seen in my 66 years. All of the performances were nuanced and believable. The dialog was really well crafted right down to the scene where MTM drops a plate while talking to her mom about Conrad and says to her mother “I think this (plate) can be repaired, it’s a nice clean break.”
The way that broken plate was used to reference the relationship while also being a deflection of the subject was complex and brilliant. Elizabeth McGovern was great at showing how difficult it is to navigate this kind of tragedy with friends - especially as a teenager.
And Timothy Hutton was so brilliant as Conrad that he left his daddy, actor Jim Hutton, in the dust where talent is concerned.
There was so much to like about this movie that the creators, actors, crew, and director deserved Oscars. These days, there is not much that is this well done or focused on a subject that makes the audience give a lot of thought to it during and well after the film’s end. Ice Storm was the closest thing I’ve seen to this kind of relationship analysis or development.
Just one more thing Dr. Grande, please cover Peter Falk's character Columbo.
I live this movie! Thanks Dr. Grande for adding your layer of knowledge. Can I recommend Mommie Dearest. Id really like to know your thoughts on John Crawford's mental health.
We need to start a petition for an ocean to be called Dr Grande I feel like that would be fitting
But there is already a river...
@@sallind1 ain't no ocean though 😂
Dr Grande, you have become my dishwashing buddy lol It seems like everytime you post, I have to do the dishes. 😂
Hmmm 🤔 something Freudian there? 🙍🏼♀️
@@Mountlougallops Ive turned into Pavlov's dog. A Dr Grande video = start washing dishes lol. Jk
Giovanna Vignoni 😂
Mine too. And my entertainment when for example today I am still too tired now to do anything else. Like after yesterday too after only walking 2 miles yesterday while running an errand with a shopping cart and then having to sleep for 12 hours starting yesterday because of it. I like living alone while recovering and now only maybe having to become a student again soon.
It’s always while I’m making dinner!
The book gave a more nuanced look at Beth. She’s shown to be a perfectionist almost to the point of OCD. Left out of the movie, but shown explicitly in the book, Conrad loved to make her feel guilty and was just as nasty with her as she was with him. The two have always had a distant relationship, mostly due to the fact that they could be twins. I wouldn’t say Conrad had low conscientiousness though, before his suicide attempt and the accident with his brother, he was a model kid. Straight A’s in school, swim team, and a variety of outside activities. He was every bit the perfectionist his mother is. The movie good due to the acting, but Alvin Sargent’s screenplay is choppy and included a bizarre scene involving Conrad barking at his mother that wasn’t in the book. Over all, I’d say the book was better.
The book contains some other material that might be a little eyebrow-raising to some, including a quite different scene in place of the flashback where Buck and Conrad are arguing over a sweater. But the "barking" scene never seemed difficult to interpret for me. It seems that in that moment, Conrad becomes so frustrated at his inability to communicate with Beth that he resorts to barking. I've often wondered, though, if the barking was an improvisation on Timothy Hutton's part.
Love your content, Doctor! Thank you for providing a well-reasoned and balanced voice during these turbulent and chaotic times, King. You keep me sane.
What a great movie to analyze. I remember watching it in my 20's and thinking how sad that not all the characters found acceptance. I'm especially appreciative for your analysis of film and TV therapists, calling out specific things that shouldn't happen during the therapy process. It's easy to blur the line between Hollywood and reality. I'd like to see more movies and shows analyzed this way.
Great analysis, as usual! In the midst of a pandemic, your valuable insight and words of wisdom to us all about coping with pain and uncertainty were gold. Many thanks for all you do!
Here's my thoughts on Beth. By avoiding going to therapy her grief became more destructive to herself and her family. She may have saved her family, marriage and her relationship with Conrad who needed her so much. She had too much pride, and she was the one who needed therapy the most. Good example of scapegoating and why the whole family needs family therapy together. Tragic.
I can honestly say watching your channel has helped me develop more objective observational and analysis skills, another great video from my favorite doc! 💖
4 months in a mental hospital? Wow. Unreal. Doctors/hospitals sure made a killing back in the 80s. In any event, as horrible a tragedy as this is for a family to endure, it really offers an opportunity for a family to bond. Hard times can really cement a family together; HOWEVER, only when they struggle *together* and not off in their own corners dealing with it on their own.Exotic vacations ae not what will make you stronger as a family (contrary to popular belief). It's when you struggle together and lean on each other in an interdependent way that can really form strong bonds. But many families need the help of a professional in order to learn how to do this. I think I saw that this movie was offered on Tubi. I will need to take a look at it. Thanks for sharing♥
I can’t wait to see the movie* “*The Good Therapist*” *featuring Dr. Todd Grande, coming *in *2021*--*Spoiler Alert -- no false empathy included. Thankyou Dr. Grande 🤓😄🤓
i havent seen this movie for a long time but i remember how she the mum was not able to express her feelings, was cold.
Dr. Grande, Thank you for reviewing one of my favorite films from the 1980's.
Your analysis was excellent and very accurate!
I really appreciate and love your channel Doctor Grande.
Would love to see a video on: Chris Benoit, Tony Soprano, Budd Dwyer L.R Hubbard.
Dr. Grande, I don't know how you are able to analyze the personalities in this situation. I can tell you this, there are our public lives, our personal lives and our secret lives. No one really knows what goes on closed doors.
In movies, we get to see what goes on behind the doors.
Always love your speculations. ⚘
Remember Beth trying to convince Calvin to spend Christmas in London.? "It would be like something out of Dickens." (Is that supposed to be a good thing?) And then she says, "We always go away for Christmas." I found that strange, as Christmas is supposed to be such a cozy, homey time. Who spends each Christmas away from friends and family in foreign hotel rooms?
Awesomely interesting analysis Dr. Grande! Thank you!
What can I say Dr. Grande? Thanks for humanizing Beth. The movie characters hit me close to home. A rare movie where the therapist isn’t a caricature, not a Buffon neither a villain.
Yeah, the lack of closure in the movie is what bothered me when I watched it as a teenager. Now that I'm older, I get it. It's so true to life.
I agree. I always felt kind of cheated out of an ending. Either a happy or sad ending, whatever. But, you're right. Now that I'm older, I get it. Events in life don't have climactic endings. The next day is always kind of mundane...
I like to listen to you while I'm at work painting, or at home chilling. I enjoy learning the range of considerations that you reveal about your worldview as you tell all these stories about people and their personalities.
Another wonderful video Dr. Grande 👍🏻
Dr Grande thank you for the discussion of professional boundaries at approx 12 minutes. The whole review was good, but that was particularly well done by you.
Great analysis of the film. I saw it when it came out. As with many who saw the film, Beth was my least favorite, but after all, Mary Tyler Moore did a wonderful job. As I went through my journey in therapy, and saw the film again a number of times over the years, I realized in my view that Beth was a narcissist. At the end when Donald Sutherland’s character tells her that she was never capable of love, she as a narcissist had to leave at the end. It was like death to her. I always related to Conrad. I was 25 in 1980 not too much older in age. I would have felt that pain with self blame, but not attempt suicide. I would have found relief in other outlets, much healthier. It’s an excellent film. I agree with your statements about Dr. Berger. Typical movie goofs for the sake of moving the plot. As always, I so enjoy your perspective and programming.
Yep! I hated Beth and believed she hated Conrad for not being the one who died instead of her favourite son, Buck. I also liked Calvin the best, and I think Conrad mentions how everyone loves him to Dr Berger. Dr Berger was my favourite, though because there just aren't psychiatrists like him today. Today they're prescription thugs who push pills instead of taking time. Calvin would be my second favourite, though. 😊
I think this was about Conrad's survivor's guilt, and his mom's need to control things.
Thank you Dr Grande. 🌹 Great movie to analyze!
I love these movie analyses. It’s a nice contrast from your heavier content. I know you’ve talked about Dead Poet’s Society before but I would love to see a video just for that film - I watched it freshman year (as kind of a forced companion to Catcher in the Rye) and it’s my favorite Robin Williams movie. Thanks for another great video!
Melancholia 2011, The Virgin Suicides, both good movies to watch and analyze
I've often wondered if Dr. Melfi from the Sopranos was a good therapist.
She was a good therapist with Tony especially considering the way he constantly pushed boundaries with her. She did a good job of grappling with the ethical issues involved. The show did a good job of showing the way a therapist deals with countertransference issues. Dr. Melfi demonstrated a few transgressions and also some inappropriate boundary crossings (especially considering discussions with her family), but this happens for all clinicians over the course of a career. I’m a licensed mental health provider and this is my take on it. I have watched all seasons of The Sopranos at least 5 times, and seasons 1-3 more than 10 times. I love the show.
I don’t think it would be a good idea for Dr. Grande to analyze anything from The Sopranos. He would need to spend so much time describing all the guns in use that he’d go past his 20 minute video length rule!
@@truecrimecurator9874 It was a brilliant show.
Well, Tony liked her.
This movie was just heartbreaking. The situation was terrible, but made much worse by Beth‘s refusal to except help. I remember being struck by Mary Tyler Moore playing such an unpleasant character in comparison to what we always saw her as. At least in the final scene of the movie there was a sense of hope.
Dr. Grande, good channel you have.
Loved your review of this movie. I saw it in the early 90s maybe and then watched it again after my husband died. I found it a compelling narrative of how tragedy effects people differently without coddling the nature of what loss does to any of us. I found it honest and true to my own deep experiences with loss. Appreciated your reflections on the therapist, which is always an interesting element when given from someone with the same profession. Thanks for sharing!
Thank-you Dr. Grande for such an insightful analysis. I remember the movie when it came out and it was quite a different look for Mary Tyler Moore. It was quite a drama and she played the role well as did the other actors. Your analysis is quite on point. "Ordinary" people living ordinary lives. Yet, beneath the surface how much more different. Thank-you again.
Telling Conrad he was his friend was the much better option than being distant and too cold like his mom.
Saying that is wrong in most instances but in this setting the benefit was greater than any possible damage.
Boy, Dr Grande, you are full of surprises. One of my favourite movies. Mary Tyler Moore gave a great performance.
(My psychiatrist’s partner still sneaks cigarettes - on the 11th floor!)
My best friend’s sister committed suicide when we were in high school. 40 years later I only know that life is complicated.
I think this is not only a quality film but an effective one in showing family dynamics surrounding the loss of a child. Thanks so much... very meaningful
When I was a high school freshman (1966 San Francisco, CA.) we read "The grapes of wrath" by John Steinbeck.....Later in the year, as our final, we had to write a paper on the book ...someone had stolen my copy of the book so, to refresh my memory of the story, I rented the film which was made in 1940...one of the best books ever written in my opinion.
What's the connection to Ordinary People?
@@eldgay3056 At around the 5:00 minute mark in the analysis Dr. Grande comments on how he saw Ordinary People in his English class and they were also reading the book at the same time...It sparked my memory of English class and reading the Grapes of Wrath...that's what my comment was about so piss off
As s a cinephile I'd love to see you review more films . 😎🧐
Excellent as always.
Another great video. Absolutely love this film.
I love this movie.
Amazing it has held well after 40 years! Now I have to go watch it again.
Ordinary People is a great movie with a stellar cast. I watched this movie for the first time in years, in tribute to Donald Sutherland who died a couple of days ago (June 20, 2024). We lost another legend. I enjoyed Donald's performance, but the star of this movie is Mary Tyler Moore. I spent the majority of the film being angry at her, because she plays a cold, unyielding woman who is hurting her surviving son. When a performance makes you mad, you're watching a masterful actor! I also enjoyed Judd Hirsch as Dr. Berger. I don't agree that a therapist should never call himself a "friend." I think there are situations where it's natural and even helpful for a doctor to be a friend, especially when the patient is a lonely, suicidal teenager. It's not crossing a forbidden line if the doctor is also a caring person. Sometimes being a friend is what is needed to save the patient's life.
I just learned that Ordinary People was a novel by Judith Guest before it was a movie. I wish it was available as an audiobook. I would definitely listen to it immediately!
I'm surprised to see Dr. Grande characterize Conrad as having mid-range to low conscientiousness. I read the novel it was based on, and in his head Conrad was constantly berating himself for not staying on top of things and keeping up appearances, and seemed to feel uncomfortable at offers of help. So apparently he was an achievement-oriented individual, which is part of conscientiousness. He'd clearly inherited some of his mother's characteristics. The book and the movie both mention that Conrad and his mother were the only two people that didn't cry at Buck's funeral, though of course Conrad cried at the climax after getting the news that his friend Karen had died.
It was a little surprising to me how Conrad and Beth couldn't seem to connect, considering that they seemed to have some stuff in common--maybe more in common than Beth had with her husband. Honestly I didn't feel that the marriage between Calvin and Beth was the wisest one that had ever occurred, due to how different they were from each other. It seemed like the marriage had been based mostly on the sexual and romantic attraction that Calvin experienced towards Beth based on what he experienced as her "mysteriousness" and unpredictability, or at least his own inability to predict what she would do or say next. We don't really know what it was about Calvin that had attracted Beth to him because we never get the story from her point of view. But there was no real friendship between Calvin and Beth underneath this romantic attraction, and therefore there was nothing to carry them through a tragedy like this.
It should be mentioned, perhaps, that it's quite common for marriages to break up after the death of a child.
Thank you. I’m considering recommending this movie to one of my clients. I think I will after your analysis.