The Lost 116 Pages | Ep. 1590 | LDS Discussions Ep. 04
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- Опубліковано 5 лип 2024
- Join us for another fascinating conversation with LDS discussions on the lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon.
LDS Discussions Essay on the Lost 116 Pages: www.ldsdiscussions.com/116pages
LDS Disc Full Playlist: • LDS Discussions - An E...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:05:48 116 Pages - Why the lost 116 pages are so important
00:10:35 The Story of the ‘Lost 116 Pages’ - Lucy Harris
00:12:34 Martin takes the 116 pages
00:17:15 Joseph finds out the manuscript is gone
00:25:00 Joseph Smith, the peep/seer stone, and losing control
00:30:00 Treasure digging and the lost 116 pages
00:31:40 Trying to regain control of the Book of Mormon creation
00:33:20 Issues with the revelation (D&C 10)
00:36:16 God is insecure
00:42:00 Joseph Smith, God, and the Ultimate Win-Win Scenario
00:46:00 Knowing the ending when writing the beginning
00:55:45 Metcalfe is Legend
01:03:16 Knowing about Jesus before literally anyone else
01:07:00 Brent Metcalfe
01:09:00 The dictation order is linear…but the Book of Mormon is Not
01:10:45 Jesus’ visit to the america is another late addition
01:20:34 Inventing the small plates of the book of mormon
01:22:00 The small plates in the book of mormon
01:25:50 More on the small plates evolution
01:30:44 Where the small plates enter the Book of Mormon
01:33:20 Joseph Smith is making it a little too obvious
01:34:38 Joseph continues to define the small plates
01:37:53 Joseph waited until the last second to add the small plates
01:40:30 The Black Hole of the replacement text of the Book of Mormon
01:41:50 Being intentionally vague
01:43:20 The lack of names in the replacement text
01:49:00 Apologists
01:51:30 Metcalf is legend
02:02:00 Why the Tanners and Brent Metcalfe have it right
02:04:00 Roper continues to reinterpret the book of mormon
02:14:00 Conclusion to the lost 116 pages
02:16:30 A golden opportunity missed by Joseph Smith and God
02:21:00 Satan appears to be more powerful than God
02:22:00 Leaving fingerprints all over the scene
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How Joseph Smith Translated and Composed The Book of Mormon: • How Joseph Smith Trans...
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I've been an LDS leader my whole life. Deacons quorum president, teachers quorum president, 1st priest to the Bishop, Eagle Scout, Trainer, District Leader, Zone Leader, Assistant to the President on my mission, Young Men's President, and Elders Quorum Secretary now in my ward. I have never understood the complete picture you, Mike, and others are painting on this series. Mike, I'm very grateful for your deep knowledge. John, I'm grateful for your platform and ability to direct quality discussion. I appreciate the truths, facts, and greater light and knowledge this series has brought.
Brainwashing is difficult to wash out.
Hello Jarrett, I’m asking this in all sincerity. Who are you outside the church?
One might well ask the Grand Dragon, who are you outside the Klan. Being important in a system that lies to and abuses it's members is ultimately not important as all.
Wow Jarrett your a very busy guy. The church gets so much of your time. You are working hard for that Salvation ❤️ how many are depending on you to get that job done? A lot of pressure.
@@the-salamander4truth that’s the whole problem.
Great point that Joseph could look at his seer stone and see that the plates were safe in a log, but couldn't use it to find the 116 pages.
Joseph hadn’t learned Control-S in the 1820’s. 😄
I can see Joshua Thompson’s point. If Good took away the gold plates and the spectacles after 116 pages had lost, God could also take away Joseph Smiths’ power to see things using his seer stone then. Mike, what do you think?
@@rjohnson6959 Or the simple explanation is that he couldn't remember what he had invented before.
Come on!
@@joshuathompson1357 Yes it an argument. He couldn't remember what he previously invented so moved on hoping people who buy his BS. You don't seriously believe the plates actually existed do you with reformed egyptian on them do you? I have a bridge you might like to buy.
@@joshuathompson1357 That's not rudeness. Direct talking not your thing then.
My original comment was 100% relevant.
You were the one who butted in and tried to make out it wasn't.
Joseph Smith was a conman.
The fact that he wouldn't retranslate the 116 pages because he was afraid of being caught out is pertinent to all discussions about Mormon BS.
You can not seriously believe in this day and age that his story about plates is true?
You'll be telling me next the Book of Abraham is genuine.
When I went through seminary as a teen, I remember thinking these same things, but the second I voiced my questions and concerns about these issues, I was immediately shut down and told that it was Satan causing me to question Joseph Smith and that one day God would share his reasoning for letting this happen.
How dare you introduce questions that could interrupt the 10% tithing flow!
BTW that's called "thought stopping". very common in cults, they teach members to interrupt their critical thinking
Better a year late than never! At 67 years old-I wonder where my mind has been. Thank you!
As a never mormon, I find the multiple cohosts extremely valuable. It helps give more context as to how these things were taught to and perceived by members. I also just enjoy everyones opinions and commentary, no matter how long it takes! ❤️
Ditto
Ditto x3!
Do yourself a favor and stop thinking of yourself as an "as a"... Everyone is an "as a"...
As a blah blah, I'm blah blah blah because of blah blah.
Lame.
I don't understand how never being Mormon would make "multiple cohorts" more valuable, but I do agree with you that the numerous and diverse accusatory fingers are all pointing to the same giant lie.
If a subject takes 2 hours, take 2 hours. Plenty of room for both short and longer stories. ❤
Yeah this episode kind of felt rushed. We've got time to listen, slow down and breathe!!! 🥰😂
@@chubbypolarbear23Yes, actually prefer longer versions and often listen to them again to absorb more data.
I'm Christian but know little about Mormonism. I've recently become fascinated with fundamentalist religions and found my way to your channel. I'm watching this series and it is making the Bible sound legitimate 😂
What kind of Christian are you that doesn't think the Bible is legitimate?
Personally I love the longer content !!! the more the better!!!! I left the church almost 6 years ago and still devour these episodes. I think a lot of people who have left the church and people who have never been a part of the church would be interested in more details. It's just so fascinating!
I resonate with devouring these episodes. ❤
I love the longer versions where cohosts give their responses. It’s super interesting & kind of healing to know that we aren’t alone
I think this series is important and could become a staple for the truth seeker wanting to understand church history in detail, in context, and be able to appreciate the forest rather than focusing on the trees.
What makes this series special to me is your willingness to take time with people (and with the content), going in depth. We're surrounded by sound bites, stripped of context and nuance. My vote - go for it!
I like the longer versions of the podcast myself. Thanks!
I personally think that long format, in-depth discussions are where John excels. I think we can get many "lean&short" decent discussions elsewhere, but for the long stuff I come to John.
The way you presented this episode was perfect!
John I love the way you repeat things for clarification; it helps me digest the information better.
Please keep these shows coming thick and fast.
Your number one fan from the Land Down Under.
I like having the additional commentary and co-hosts.
The constant repeating, clarification and reiterating I ultimately find incredibly frustrating and harder to follow. I have no background with the church or church history. I find that I need to pause the pop cast to go to LDS discussions website to read the text of what is trying to be presented. Let mike get through his presentation and then have a discussion.
The history can be dry and a bit hard to follow- Having the cohosts and discussion makes it fun and interesting. I like the insights and discussion.
This series has been eye opening and I almost want to say that it's been life changing. I've been addicted and I would love to see more. These have been my favorite episodes of Mormon Stories. Thank you!
I personally really like the cross talk with the different hosts - it helps flesh out the impact of what is being discussed. Like I think Jenn does a great job of connecting the history to how it impacts TBM's faith experience, Gerardo is good at contextualizing the topic within broader Mormon theology, etc. Basically - the more the merrier on co-hosts in my estimate!
Yay! Mara is in the house! You give great analysis on this front as well!
@@tawnyachristensen7310 Haha I'm honestly so obsessed - making me dig out all my Second Great Awakening materials from when I taught Christian history :D
💯
These episodes with Mike are total bangers! Keep 'em coming!
This series is amazing. I am learning so many new things I never knew that were definitely not talked about growing up mormon. I appreciate the FACTS and TRUTH! It is so refreshing.
As one of your never Mormon listeners, I need all of the explanation I can get! As a person interested in the human condition, I like to hear how what you were taught affects you when you discover that there is a whole lot of beliefs backed up by absolutely nothing!
As an exmo. Born n raised in it. I always harbored secret doubts..
But after I left, and did my own research, the anger is in measurable!
My feedback is the longer version is better. Hearing reactions and different perspectives is great. Love having a few co hosts. I love hearing from Gerardo, Jenn and Nemo, and Carah occasionally.
The fact that the plates were taken away after Smith finished the “translation” and that they could be taken away pretty much whenever makes me wonder why the plates needed to be buried and hidden for Smith to “find them”? why couldn’t they just be given to him hand to hand from the beginning?
Because people were superstitious back then and the connection to treasure digging techniques probably gave the story more gravitas.
False plates. If they were taken away to keep safe, why can we still go and read the dead sea scrolls? Those scrolls still exist. Some are so old they have broken up.
As a member, I find your presentation respectful and therefore, more compelling. Mocking listeners and beliefs they hold so personal would turn a lot of people off. Well done.
Oooh! Oooh! I know what happened to those 116 pages! They were eaten...by the same dog that ate all of my homework when I was in high school. It was an old dog and had a collar that said "born in 1824" on it and a little note contained in a locket that said "this dog belongs to Martin Harris". The dog burped a lot. When it burped, the burps smelled like old books, like the smell of an old-book collection. The last time I saw that dog was just before my last final exam in high school.
😉😜👍
😜😉👍
As a never MO I appreciate these educational history videos as well as long form interviews. But, I miss Gerardo, he gives such interesting and knowledgeable commentary.
Keep it tight with you and Mike.
Mike powers through with his info and You slow it down to retell& explain deeper. It’s a perfect mix.
This is my favorite new series. For newly questioning members it’s important to find a source that carefully and precisely covers all the issues in order. Other videos or podcasts that cover problems with Mormon history and truth claims are too sporadic and hard to find in a comprehensive listen. Like getting the puzzle pieces but never the whole puzzle. Please keep doing these episodes so that one day I can send people to your play list and they can listen, one by one, in order to see the big picture.
John’s “slow” re-telling is also helpful. Although as others have stated, I really like Gerardo’s insight and comments. Overall, love that the episodes stay factual not emotional and are to the point with linear in logic and history. That’s what people need.
No worries,... but they are discussing a subject with a 2022 Christian Man's mindset and Opinions about some data but not all the data available for the whole picture, ... just a picture. There's 50 years of new data that is not hidden but you must seek it not wait it to be packaged for you. God will know who seeks him. Who Wants to know him. 1st they assume from the start and never speak about Joseph Smith in an honest way. They never listen to what Joseph said he did, just what people said about him 100 years after he died and then those Opinions become facts 200 years after he died. The truth is in 1830's.
I too enjoy the longer commentary, analysis and personal reactions
Don't worry about cutting things short
I like to hear all the info. I haven't heard things that were too long, and if I did I would have the option to turn it off...but if you go short and leave stuff out I have no choice.
I love the longer formats combined with commentary. Excellent work, gentlemen!
This is GOLD from LDS discussion
I like the extended versions, but John you don’t need cohosts to interview guests. You are an epic host and in my opinion too many hosts distracts from the content.
John thank you for repeating the complicated sentences and saying it slower. I am a very slow thinker and needed to repeat what Mike is saying a number of times before I get it. Kudos to Mike, it's as if I am listening to a thesis defense
These are my favorite episodes
I love this series! I think it’s helpful to have other co-hosts sometimes and to hear everyone make sense of things and reiterate the points in their own words since some of this stuff gets kind of technical. A combo of episodes with just John and others with multiple co-hosts would be great too.
I’m so grateful I found this podcast. I feel released of all quilt for leaving the church ( something was always wrong In My mind )
I have many many LDS friends and family. I share w them what I learn. Amazingly some know but do not know how to let go. The Fear of OUTER DARKNESS is burned In Their heads. It takes time.
I literally listen every single days. Some episodes over and over again. I WAS RIGHT the whole time.
I honestly love the cohosts. I kinda zone out when one person speaks for too long. I listen to the episodes when I have a lot of time. So I really don't mind if they're longer
Longer versions are fine with me. TBH, I've enjoyed each format. Co-hosts? Good. Only John? Good. 2 hours? Good 4 hours? Good (and I'll just break it into increments on my own if I don't have time to take it all in straight through.
Bottom line: I think whatever works best for you guys in presenting the information will probably be really good as far as I'm concerned.
I enjoy longer podcasts. This channel is great!
I like having the additional commentary and co-hosts.
I can’t imagine the amount of stress JS must’ve been under to try to remember all his lies and keep all those plates in the air
Amber Heard would be so proud of him
Those plates were buried!
The only plates Joe had, were dinner plates.
Good thing God knew he'd lose the first 116 pages several thousand years in advance.
Such a good episode. My only hope for after I die is that I can come back as a fly on the wall to witness this part of mormon history. It's so fascinating and once you have all that surrounding context, it really gives an insight into how this religion was founded. Brilliant brilliant episode.
I love hearing what the guest hosts have to say. I think having more perspectives makes it more well rounded conversation.
Personally, I like just your straightforward interviews.
The length of the show doesn't matter unless you are listening live. I listen after it airs on 1.5 or 1.75. I like when you stop to clarify points, I like when there are other hosts, I like whatever way you decide to interview. This series is really great.
Love this episode and series. I love the long form and should two witnesses aka "The power of 3". I really appreciate this series because it's aggregating all the information I have learned over the past years
I'm a big fan of the longer format.
I love this series so much! It got me interested enough to pick up No Man Knows My History from the library, and I’m loving it!
I like the long ones. I love these that focus on true information!!
I'm just hearing all of these's issues for the first time. I'm a member inactive for almost 5 years now. But when I joined the church in 1989 I did not know any of these things. I questioned a few things before being baptized. But was told Heavenly Father, would work everything out in the end. And so I believed it and was baptized. Although all these years I still had questions. I'm so grateful I stumbled across this site. Now a lot of my questions are beginning to make sense. I'm looking forward to hearing more, and yes I like the long version. Great job guys keep up all the good work.
This is exactly the episode I needed. Thank you.
Can you guys do a video about the Book of Mormon structure?? Basically a cliffs notes of each chapter? I know you probably have, so I guess I'm asking for more detail. I know the basic story, but an episode like this is harder to follow for someone, like me, that hasn't read more than a couple pages. As a "never mormon", who is fascinated by this stuff, can you save me from having to read "chloroform in print" 😀.
I am LOVING these interviews. I wish they would let him be a speaker at General Conference in October. Let him be the first speaker on Saturday morning and then have Bro. John Dehlin be the last speaker before Pres. Nelson on Sun. afternoon, we would get to listen to the response from the LDS leaders. That would be a great 2 day session of conference.
I also want to add… I want to share these with all of my family. I won’t unless they ask why I “fell away”. It’s nice to know I can share this with them because I have a hard time articulating all of it.
listening to these guys will lead you to fall away
LONG version! I binge listen to your podcast at work and I love how they provide me with hours of entertainment.
Thank you so much, John. I was struggling, too!
Some very eye-opening connections! Thank you!
Release both versions. I'd enjoy both. I like getting into the weeds of the content
I have enjoyed all of your programs during the 2 years I have been aware of them. I like BOTH the detail of facts and commentary PLUS a separate but related simple fact presentation. Having both will be helpful for all. Thanks so much for all you do. - Dean from Minnesota
This is brilliant! Wow, what he has control over versus what he doesn't. Makes sense!
Thank you for all the work you’ve done to bring all of this information together and present it piece by piece. Loving this series!
I think two cohosts for this is just right because more cohosts tends to cause things to take too many tangents. I love how John summarized the things mike was saying and then mike would respond and clarify. It was extraordinarily helpful in understanding because I was really trying to wrap my brain around the information and keep track of it all.
I could probably get on board with one more cohost if you wanted to have 3 people, because I think Gerardo has a lot of information to add, but I think keeping it tight and really following the material you have to present is best.
This one was taxing on my brain so it’s hard to say if more time would’ve been better. I will say that I think this amount of time worked for me.
Typically I like the longer deep dives. The beauty of this one is that I think it’s a length that I can sent to some of my family members and they would feel like they have time to listen to this one.
As always, thanks for everything. You are doing important work!
Transcript please. Yes. Of these four parts. Very valuable. Impressive eloquence. Honest and pure clarity.
Thank you
The slideshow is very well put together. I like the amount of energy and research that has gone into the presentations. As you make more, it might help the flow if you add slides where you can pause and discuss. It feels like John tries to discuss, but there's always a slide "coming up next" so the flow is a little difficult to keep up. but maybe if you divided it into sections, Mike can blaze through a couple slides without interruption and then pause and have a discussion slide where John can rephrase it and put it into context and ask questions. John's strength is making sure we listeners can "see" the slides in our minds' eye just like the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I think there can be a way to use the slideshow to support the discussion rather than try to interject a discussion into a slideshow. Love the work you are doing! I have listened to all of them on 2x speed. :)
Thanks!!
Longer stories. I love the commentary and analysis.
I have no problem with the longer episodes. Most podcasts I listen to are about an hour long but I have listened to your 2 plus hour episodes (multiple-back to back) and they are so interesting I don’t even realize that much time has past.
I think this series is extremely beneficial. I enjoy hearing the facts. I also enjoy hearing the perspectives of the cohosts. I like the longer format personally.
I love the historical, technical and scientific approach of this series.
Love the tighter, shorter version in this episode!! What a mind blowing discussion!
Love Jen too!
❤
I really like that I can hear the experiences of others. It’s been the best part for me and my faith journey.
Putting the categories of the episode so I know where to skip to for certain topics is great. Keep that up plz
I loved how much fun these guys had with this. This is a masterful analysis and it enhances the ninconpoopery of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon
I thought this was presented perfectly! I loved the lack of constant interruptions, though I love Gerardo and when he's on!
This is amazing! I follow Mike on tik tok ! So great to see him here. And so much great information!! I like that this one is just the 2 of you, so the ideas are moving at an ideal pace!
Love the long versions.
I love this series and am looking forward to the next one. I prefer the episodes with just John and LDS discussions!
Excellent. For the format, I think thev way you did it today is perfect. It's like John Larsen and Mormon Expression... His best episodes were those near the end of his podcast when it was just him dishing out information. He covered lots of ground and was entertaining too. Keep this format..
Mike and John, thank you for this well thought out presentation! I found it very interesting. I am going back and scanning the Book of Mormon to notice the things you talked about. I’m only up to first Nephi chapter 9, and there are already two whole chapters of Joseph Smith (AKA Nephi) explaining why the account differs from the other one! Never noticed it before!
Yay!!!
I remember reading rough stone rolling and there's a little blurb in there that mentions that Nephi was translated at the end, not the beginning, and then I (still a believer) started to have some cognitive dissonance and I didn't know why. I think, having been really deep into mormon history for a while, I was starting to put together some of these pieces subconsciously. So listening to this episode was like scratching an old itch. And it was soooo good!!
Yay!!!
Mike, this content is absolutely fantastic! For people like myself, I think emotional reactions are great in other types of interviews (the long form stories of people's lives), but I don't know that we need emotional reactions to this series. I'm not sure how people are finding this content dry. If you were to have a co-host I think it would be preferred to have a subject matter expert.
love the discussion, love the analysis, y'all point out stuff I wouldn't have been able to verbalize
I appreciate the detail, makes it better for me to understand. I’m very far removed from being “in”, so my knowledge is rusty. If it’s too long I just break it up & listen the next day. But I can totally see why a shorter version would be better for some listeners.
I enjoy cohosts, they provide perspectives different from mine.
this is incredible stuff! i'm so glad i came across this channel. i've read the first 2 books of nephi and never noticed the lack of detail in them. i often had questions in confusion about some things but didn't know what was really happening.
I like the longer version with the insights from cohosta
I’d like both versions! Sometimes I don’t have time for the long format, but when I do, I really want the extras.
I love your videos! I prefer when you have an additional co-host, more perspectives are nice. Thank you for what you do!
Thanks for this content! I'm just now going through the whole playlist/series. So helpful!
I love all your videos. 2-3 hours is perfect but sometimes these topics take more time to develop conversations. Feel the spirit and go with it lol Keep rockin'
Great job
I follow you from cochabamba Bolivia South america
💚 I enjoy hearing Mike's and your observations, perspective and commentaries, Dr. Dehlin. I even enjoy when you have guests on who offer observations as well. I think it would be pretty stale if Mike just read the slides, therefore making having a host not necessary.
I like the shorter leaner focused versions but honestly, I've been watching them all.
I like with additional hosts because the do provide a different view and greater understanding. Also I would have loved to see Jen reaction to this.
Want all details and facts please, if he has all the info, so grateful for you comprising it, preserve and share all. Love long versions. Love Gerardo, nemo. Such great info! Thanks much! Priceless
The restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the most Glorious thing I know.
I’m a never Mormon (NoMo) who finds this very interesting. Love the other cohost like Nemo. For people like me would you mind explaining things in the beginning? It took me a while to figure out what pages were lost and from where were they lost. Keep up the good work shining the light.
I know this was a year ago but I appreciate more discussion so that I have more time to process before powering on to the next point.
Thanks!
Leaner and direct for these ones. Can still be long, just information dense. 👌
keep the episodes just like this one.
Very interesting to listen to this podcast, when it was mentioned that God lost control because of Joseph Smith, that just blew my mind.
Well, a GOD that could loose control , is certainly not my GOD. What a joke.