LDS Temple Endowment and Masonry | Ep. 1669 | LDS Discussions Ep. 23
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- Join Mike and John as they discuss Mormonism’s early connection with Masonry through Joseph Smith and the unique problems it creates for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to grapple with today.
Covered topics include the timeline of Joseph becoming a Master Mason before introducing the similarly-themed rituals of the Temple Endowment Ceremony, why many members and apologists claim Masonry to be of ancient origin despite evidence to the contrary, the many parallels between the secret rituals of both organizations, and whether or not the Temple Endowment involved false doctrines.
LDS Discussion Essay on the Temple & Masonry: ldsdiscussions.com/temple
LDS Discussions Playlist: • Joseph Smith and Treas...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:02:50 What we will and won’t cover in this episode
00:04:35 Timeline of Joseph Smith becoming a Mason and the endowment
00:07:30 The church’s “Now you know” video on Masonry and the Temple
00:10:20 Trying to normalize Masonry in 19th century America
00:12:45 The church implies that Masonry had a divine origin
00:16:04 Early members believed it was divine because Joseph said it was
00:21:19 More quotes about Masonry being the original endowment
00:22:15 Two more quotes on the endowment and masonry
00:24:15 Joseph taught masonry was the endowment - He was wrong
00:28:57 Even the church admit the lines of history and myth were blurred
00:36:00 The church seeks to explain why Joseph used surrounding ideas
00:36:30 The church can no longer deny Joseph used surrounding ideas
00:38:15 A quick recap of ideas Joseph took from his milieu
00:43:10 Similarities and difference between masonry and the endowment
00:47:35 Trying to have it both ways on the Masonic connections
00:51:00 The Masonic text before receiving the tokens/grips
00:57:40 These are not just “parallels” as the church declares
01:02:45 More parallels to the Masonic ceremony
01:06:30 The Five Points of Fellowship (now removed)
01:09:00 Penalties for revealing the signs and tokens (mostly removed)
01:10:05 Penalty #1 - Having my throat cut across
01:11:50 Penalty #2 - Having your heart plucked out
01:12:45 Penalty #3 - Having your bowels burned to ashes
01:15:40 The church today wants to claim these penalties did not exist
01:20:45 Clothing used in the endowment vs. Masonic ceremony
01:21:35 Masonic symbols that were brought to the Mormon temple
01:23:20 The subjective use of parallels
01:25:00 Taking the Occam’s Razor Look at the LDS Endowment and Masonry
01:29:00 The final section of the Now You Know video
01:30:50 The temple and the oath of vengeance
01:32:30 Cursing the leaders of the USA in the temple
01:36:00 Takeaways of the LDS Church using the temple to curse enemies
01:37:10 Adam-God doctrine in the Mormon temple
01:39:40 God allowed Adam-God into the temple ceremony
01:41:15 Seeing the forest through the trees
01:44:50 Joseph Smith is the one who declares these ideas are from God
01:51:30 Conclusions and takeaways
LDS Discussions Playlist: • Joseph Smith and Treas...
Episode Show Notes: mormonstories.org/podcast/tem...
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Plagiarism is not the real temple problem for me. I will be 81 this year. I was 20 when married in the Logan, Utah temple in November 1963. It was the most traumatic and terrifying day of my life. I was not prepared for the horrible blood oaths. Being threatened to have your throat cut and be disemboweled if you reveal any secrets of the covenants and ceremony of the temple ...is not what a 20 year old virgin wants to hear on her wedding day, or at any time. What did this have to do with Jesus? I was crying and terrified through the hours long ceremony. I am so angry about the abusive terror...still at 80 years I was born and raised in the church. And it just about destroyed my life.
Sorry you went through that 😢 reading your comment makes me think how all of that masonic stuff is demonic and it just solidifies what God has been revealing to me in the past 4 years. Im not a mormon but i met one and we clashed so much when we talked about God that it made me research about mormonism. It all makes sense now that i know how masonry is connected to mormonism and how God revealed to me years ago that masonry is satanic. What you experienced was definitely satanic and im so sorry you went through that. God says that his people die because of the lack of knowledge and it really makes sense.
I also found the ceremony deeply troubling in 1975 when I first experienced it. Frightening even. We were not allowed to inquire about it before hand and I did. I was just told, wait and see. My first inclination of trouble came when the initial sentences of the ceremony said if anyone doesn’t wanna participate they should withdraw now. Well, how should I would know if I wanna withdraw if I have no idea what’s coming? I also am deeply Disturbed by those memories from almost 50 years ago
40 years a convert to the church. I have been in a Faith crisis for about a year, hesitant to leave because of my strong testimony! I think this episode is the final straw. I don’t know what it means for my marriage or friendships but, i just can’t live a lie!
That's definitely a very tough place to be in. I'm not going to try to sway you either way, there are a lot of strange things about the way the temple ceremony is put on and I'm figuring that out for myself too. I do know though that in my experience people who work in the temple and attend often and regularly are changed. They become more loving and kind and thoughtful of others. My father growing up wasn't very loving and in fact was very critical and often mean. I would say he was a very active member but didn't have Jesus in his heart. When he was called to be a temple worker in his 50's he completely changed into this beautiful kind man who sought to make his children feel welcomed. I can't give any other source to the change other than he was transformed by his work in the temple.
@sachamoqpp I am at the same point. I have raised 5 of the most amazing children in this faith. These children all have beautiful families and are raising amazing children. Do not ruin a marriage or family over this. Be Still and turn to Heavenly Father in pray... Let Him be your guide. Do not let someone's lies past and future be the the thing that divides your family. I hate the thought that I have been deceived for 61 years!! Just REMEMBER they don't own your relationship with God, the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.... That's yours to keep! Keep saying your prayers and reading your Bible to find peace. Keep your wife and family close to you. God loves families and wants harmony in them... Don't get so mad at the church you ruin what you have built... This is what Satan would want. Families are still the core value of Christian faith! I will keep you in my prayers... be wise as you move forward... I understand the anger you feel, but don't take it out on the family...
This is So well said by you!
It seems true that we can retain our indignation at having been deceived while forging on with what We know as Good and True.
That Claim of exclusive truth can be left behind and have more influence on us.
@jonwilcox4432 Thank you! This was so nice of you to say! I feel strongly about this message. We are still Sons and Daughters of God. This is not going to change. The Holy Ghost is still our companion to help us decern truth from error! Because we are His Children and He loves us and He will guide us safely home not faliable men.
Trust God he is leading you into truth to set you free !! Prayers for you choose the true and only God , Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Read the Bible all the way through. Just let it say what it actually says the holy spirit will teach you what is real. You may have had an experience but God tells us to test the spirits. We can have a spiritual experience but it doesn't mean it's from God. God will show you if you genuinely seek him and want him to guide you.
This episode was really hard for me. Really let my tears flow because I feel so betrayed by the church. I never realized that the activities in the temple were copied so much by the Freemasons
technically the church is copying them. I think that's what you mean though😅
It’s a hard pill to swallow. I’ve been inactive for several years. Started to “fall away” due to the culture. Then, through study I found contradictions, half-truths, and lies. Combine that with apologists excusing very bad things like how Joseph practiced polygamy by marrying other men’s wives and I just couldn’t take it. I don’t hate the church. In fact I do believe it does a lot of good. But i do feel utterly betrayed.
@@ryant6134 ohhhh that makes my family tree make so much more sense.. I was wondering if the women were marrying multiple husband's at first, too. That makes the double husbands make sense. Thanks 😂
Your concluding remarks about there not being much to be learned outside of memorizing rituals triggered a memory of multiple members of the church telling me that they learned something new every time they attended the temple (the endowment ceremony). These statements literally drove me nuts. I would search for some new tid-bit or nuanced wording in the ceremony each time I attended the temple over the dozens and dozens and dozens (and dozens more) while I was a member of the church. To this day I don’t know what they were talking about as I practically had the whole ceremony memorized by then. I tried to approach the temple ceremony in various ways, trying to get something new out of it, but in the end, it just became another obligation.
I spent years trying to figure out when the epiphany might come during one of those sessions. There was never a feeling of peace and enlightenment, so I tried to faithfully believe that if I only kept going (this is the mantra amoung the temple going members) perhaps someday it would hold some meaning for me. It never did, and not being able to really discuss the things happening there was the worst kind of suppression. The blanket of suffocation has been removed and looking at this from the outside makes me wonder how I ever was able to go along with it for so many years. God bless you in your new journey.
There is much lore circulated in the Church. Over time I have found much of it to be overstated or simply without base
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
I feel so betrayed and lied to by the church. I left about 6 years ago at 35. At that time I was tired of the culture and holier-than-thou attitudes.
Then as I started digging in and deconstructing I became more bitter and resentful. Now I’m at a point where I am no longer angry or trying to expose them. I simply share what I’ve learned when others like my family ask.
The one thing that actually pisses me off is the gaslighting and abuse that many active members engage in by calling “us” apostates, anti-Mormons, faithless, and victims. They can’t fathom that there are numerous legitimate reasons why people would leave the church and be angry.
“God has swallowed prophets in fish for less” don’t worry Nemo I appreciated that one 😂😂
A fitting comment from Nemo
Legendary quotes
Well said Nemo!
That one made me choke on my beverage 😂
This quote was my favorite of the whole episode
The researcher, Mike, is stunning in his ability to put his emotions to the side and take the high road, without showing any anger, as he systematically dismantles this church. It's pretty remarkable. He's very poised.
focusing on the facts - no ego involved
You three gentlement are awesome! This was SOOOO informative! I've heard much of this before but never arranged so perfectly with such a "smack on" discussion. And it's almost as if you were inside my mind as you discussed the reactions you had to your first time through the temple for your own endowments. I too nearly died when I had to participate in the washing and annointing. I'd been told all my life to keep my body sacred and covered. Then the first thing I had to do in the temple is strip naked, cover with a sheer poncho (open on the sides!) and let a stranger touch me!!! Oh, dear God, save me! But I wasn't saved! And then shortly thereafter, with my mother sitting right beside me and my father and fiancé across the aisle, I was told that if I didn't want to continue with the coming information, learning of signs and penalties, etc., I was encouraged to leave. I can't even tell you how loudly the voice in my head was screaming "RUN!" In panic I looked over at my mother who refused to look back. The whole experience was demeaning and disturbing. I got the full mean deal of enacting the now erased penalties of slashing my throat, ripping out my heart and disembowling myself. My 18 year old self was sure I had stepped into hell! Yup, I was getting married at 18. Another contemptible LDS tradition. Marry them off young and get them popping out children to tie them tighter to the machinery. Plus get them young before their brains mature and they start to cast about for the real truth.
I sincerely hope the internet savy youth of today's MORMON church (take that, President Nelson!) will do a bit of searching and save themselves a lifetime of misdirection and enslavement to lies.
What an awful, manipulative, wicked thing that was done to you. I hope you never feel ashamed for not being able to run at the time, but also that you have since found the courage to do so. Anything you may have agreed or pledged to do in that temple-under the duress of your abusers-is a sham and a mockery of love, and is in no way binding on you. The scene of you and your poor mother is the hallmark of cult control. Two people who know they’ve been lied to and that what they’re being subjected to is wrong, but tragically only being allowed, through careful manipulation, to realize this fact when the stakes are not only incredibly high, but they’ve also been coerced into a state of extreme vulnerability.
Makes my blood boil to even think of it.
You shouldn't call it the Mormon church. Call it what it is...the Church of Joseph Smith
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
I was born Mormon LDS, went through the temple to receive my endowments, my maiden last name is Mason, I’m related to Brigham Young. I was very active in the church back then. I’ve always had a problem with many doctrines of the church… polygamy being the biggest problem. I’ve learned a great deal about Freemasons now.
I grew up LDS. My patriarchal blessing said the temple was going to be a wonderful beautiful experience. I entered in 2019, so nothing as crazy as from before 2005. But I still felt very uncomfortable the whole time. My parents were smiling and so happy to help but I felt weird.. I served a short mission before Covid and now my best friend from the mission is learning with me all the craziness. I mean we both experienced the weird dynamic with leaders together and justifying Joseph for abc reasonings. This video made me so uncomfortable with what was said to be doctrine. I left because I had gotten to a point in life where I was tired of being told what to do. And the cultural pressures were weird. But now seeing all these things that controlled my life is just opening my eyes.
I think we should make this entire series of videos required viewing before any potential converts are baptized...
If the Church believed in informed consent, they would be.
Either the church is true, or it's not. Can't be 50/50, I've received my answer through the Spirit, time and time again, that I cannot deny, all these historical detail's may not make sense, may have masonic connections etc,
Either God and Jesus Christ really did appear to the boy prophet Joseph Smith or God didn't, pretty simple. How can you know? Read the BOOK of Mormon, pray and ask God if the book is true. I know that the book of Mormon is true because I have received my own answer, you can too. My 8 year old son done the same, Im a convert of 20 years, I didn't want my son to be baptized unless he received his own answer through prayer, guess what? We read the book as a family, we prayed together every night, and guess what happened? Both my son and daughter received their own personal witnesses that the book is true, I knew that if God could give me an answer, He could also give an innocent 8 year old kid their own answer. Excercise your faith my friends, the church is true. When you look for holes, you'll find plenty, look with an eye faith, you'll see more miracles. Peace ✌️
@@jmatua407 I agree that Mormonism can't be 50/50. That's why the fact that the endowment is reworked Masonry is so damaging to Mormon truth claims.
@@jmatua407 it takes a special kind of gullibility to believe this crap.
@@BryanFinster Agree
I went through the temple in 1980. Repeated the gross penalties many times. I felt at the time that it was bizarre and creepy, but most of the women I respected were there with me, and did this regularly, and spoke of the beauty and reverence of the temple, etc. I never was taught it was from Masonry, never taught exactly what the penalties meant, other than they represented different ways life may be taken. I decided it was figurative, and just to scare us into keeping all the secrets. But very relieved to see them taken out in ‘90. I’m furious I ever allowed myself to do this stuff
It always felt strange. I remember looking over at my mother as if to ask, "Really? We're doing this?" Her look conveyed that this was special and good. There's so much pressure and so little info, how would you ever know to avoid the endowment or to walk out of your own free will and choice?
I've never asked my Mom how she felt about it as a teenager going for her first time in the 1950s. If it felt creepy and weird and culty to our mothers, it's heartbreaking that they brought us into it rather than helping us either avoid it or at least have enough info to choose for ourselves.
The penalties are one of the most Masonic things about the Endowment. They are lifted almost word-for-word from the 3 degrees of Freemasonry.
Between 1845 and early 1930s, Endowment participants vowed to pray that God would avenge the blood of Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Endowment participants vowed to teach the same to their children and to their children's children to the third and fourth generation beyond the participant. This "Law of Vengeance" was added by Brigham Young.
Yeah, it's super freaky, especially when family and friends congratulate you when its over and ask you if it freaked you out!!!
42 years later I still remember taking out my endowments. It felt quite cult like and no I didn't find God there. I'm convinced that the Q15 keeps this masonic rite to exert more control over its members. They value its members taking oaths to support the leaders and keeping temple recommends current to attend their children's weddings.
Fast forward to today, it's clear that the LDS Church only prospers when the women are fully committed. The sisters are starting to realize they have ultimate power and the brethren are desperate.
Thank you so much for your dedication in putting all of this information together. It has been a great relief and has allowed the cognitive dissonance keeping me in a kind of choke hold to unravel in so many important ways. I have my own unique faith journey which has to do with white knuckling my way through a divorce and coming to terms with narcissistic personality disorder first in my ex husband - then church leaders and finally in Joseph Smith. There's really no other explanation for the confabulation and grandiosity in Joseph. It's sad but - like I said - a relief. Thanks again.
I feel awkward in a temple the minute I walk in. Every thing that's done feels creepy and not spiritual. Even the clothes seem hoakie and fake. They didn't tell me anything about the temple before I went there the first time. I feel they lied to me. I converted to LDS in 2013. It feels like it could be a cult .And have been questioning things for a while. Thank you for your podcasts.
My husband was a Mason, and I hated going to the lodge, it was just creepy and I had a very unsettled feeling every time I went. We have since denounced Masonry in the name of Jesus. We want nothing to do with this insidious organization.
Wow, a lot of Christians thinks Masonry is demonic
Freemasonry is not a creepy cult
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
@@ravenrockstudios the sermons were written down inaccurate
I wish Nemo was a part of every one of these episodes
Me too.
JAT, 4strong personalities on at the same time is 3 too many.
does Nemo have a UA-cam channel?
@@karolinebeckett9561 yes he surely does. A very interesting one. It’s called “Nemo the Mormon “. You’ll enjoy it
@@karolinebeckett9561 yes, Nemo the Mormon. It’s always helpful and interesting. Enjoy 😉
As a freemason, and not a LDS member, riddle me this. IF the penalty for revealing the secrets of Freemasonry are the enactment of the penal signs as agreed upon in the obligations, and Joseph was both a Mason and a member, how did he justify not suffering the consequences of revealing the secrets of Freemasonry to the members of his church who were not masons? For that matter, how do LDS Masons square that thinking today? Unless every person in LDS who goes through the temple ceremony is made a mason first, those LDS Masons are not maintaining their masonic obligations to not share the secrets of Freemasonry. I think some folks have some explaining to do.
Those penalties are all symbolic.
Mike's comment that the things which have been removed were not of God is gold for me!
As a TBM, the 1990 and especially 2019 changes really bothered me. If the penalties were real for me in the 80's, why would we handicap later endowed members by not letting them know the gravity of violating Covenants? I continued to rehearse them in my mind for years.
The same goes with the more misogynistic/patriarchal things that have been removed. Why did I have a responsibility to covenant to obey my husband, but my daughter doesn't? I'll admit, I did appreciate the teeny-tiny escape clause requiring him to be righteous. Now, I don't even need to receive the tokens physically, I can just watch it from a distance, and I'm good.
If these things were ever real, why weren't they ALWAYS real? As early as 1990, it had me wondering, if they were removing penalties, ministers, and powers and priesthoods now, what had been removed before I got there? Was I held to the standard at the time I went through for myself, or did the new standard apply to all? Were we more righteous, so we got more than modern members who have to have it simplified as the law of Moses was when he returned from the mount to find the people in sin? Or did I get the law of Moses version because I wasn't ready for a higher law?
The simple suggestion that those things were not of God allows me to let all of that go.
It also leaves me wondering, what have they left in that is not of God, and when will it be removed? Any commitment to the ceremony can be tenuous at best, knowing that it could be removed at any time.
@@randyjordan5521 yes, this has bothered me as well. They are so specific in the temple, yet things are always changing... so what part of it can they say specifically matters in Heaven?
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
Where in the Bible does it say that Moses gave a watered down version of the law to the people at the bottom of the mountain Sinai... Why would he have to do that when the purpose of giving Moses the law in the first place was so that he could tell the people what Jehovah God expected of them.
This just breaks my heart. I already knew some of this but this video really brings everything into focus. Thank you for your research and sharing in such a sensitive and respectful way!
A hilarious quote from Martha Beck's book "Leaving the Saints" refers to her wedding day and to the pre-2005 washing and anointing ceremony. She said the following, "When I'd dreamed of my wedding day, my girlish fantasies never included having old ladies daub my naked body with oil. If they had, I seriously doubt that I would have been granted a temple recommend."
I chuckle every time I read this. I too was weirded out by the washing and anointing when I went thru the Mormon temple for the 1st time in 1998.
Wait a minute...you mean the female is fully naked and get oil rubbed all over the body?
So you have to get naked in front of how many people? I have never heard of this. Sorry I’m just curious, cause I have never been Mormon. Is this something for both women, and men?
It would be helpful if all of these discussions could be summarized in a very brief, concise document (kind of like the CES letter) with references to the applicable videos for greater detail. Basically preparing a rapid, informed-consent search tool for anyone who desires to understand more.
Mike is considering that!!!
@@mormonstories go Mike!!!
Excellent episode! When I was a convert, and 1st got my temple recommend, I asked what the question meant about whether I was affiliated with any groups not in harmony with the church. The bishop told me that masonry was one example. So, I knew from that masonry was somehow bad. Turns out, they just wanted to keep it hidden because the temple and masonry are practically the same. Mormonism Live #96 has a guest writer who has additional information about how deeply Masonry is infused into lds teachings.
@@randyjordan5521 Yeah, polygamy wouldn't have registered with anyone in the Pacific NW, either.
😳 Damn, the subterfuge runs deep
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
MAKE LDS DISCUSSIONS A DOCUSERIES!!
A chronological account of Joseph Smith, as told with as much historical accuracy as represented in Mikes essays. Man that would be amazing. Contact the producers of Under the Banner of Heaven….😊
You would reach MASS people who need the truth and have Informed Consent!
John, I’m addictied to your podcasts right now. I went through all of this in 1997 with my dad before I was to go on a mission. We found all this info that you are talking about. We read fawn brodies book, a book on Mormon/mason parallels, where the word mor/mon came from, the treasure hunting, the age of his wife’s, etc etc. I tried to tell me friends and they all ignored me, still going on missions. It’s crazy how the Mormon culture and shame is the same throughout the church all over the world. I know you are doing some really great work here and am extremely grateful for your work.
Member for 20 years. I’m learning things that I never knew before, but thought I knew everything haha.
Btw, I know John won’t call it a cult, but I will. The LDS Church is a cult. 🤷♂️
The sad part is that there are still millions of people who believe it to be divine and pay a lot of money to get in the temple, they refuse to research and know the truth.
I attend the temple and research voluminously. I knew about the Masonic overtones decades ago and never felt like anyone was keeping anything from me.
@@CMZIEBARTHBut did you believe that Masonry was authentic and dates back to Solomon's temple?
Very informative. There are some striking similarities in the way Islam came to be by the mouth of one man claiming to be the big prophet.
Big, big topic. In fact this topic was the first item on my shelf back in 1980. As I learned more over the years, Mormon Masonry became the heaviest item. Anticipating this Mormon Story and regret that work will prevent me from attending live
I've really enjoyed this series. So much information to soak in! My shelf broke on April 3, 2022 when I found out about the temple penalties. I stumbled across Elder Hollands interview with BBC. It's been a roller coaster but I'm glad I now know the facts.
@@randyjordan5521do you know, what "Lucifer paid a Protestant minister actual money to teach false doctrines to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden" means? Is there a belief that the serpent in the garden of Eden was a Protestant minister teaching New Testament doctrines that are different from those the LDS church teaches? I am exploring the LDS faith, so no idea. Thank you!
Funny temple story. I am now an ex-Mormon and divorced. However, when I was a Mormon I was married in the temple in 2001. I shared my new name with my wife in the temple, because I didn't know about all the relevant silly teachings and "rules". To me, it would have been inappropriate to not share that with my wife. When I was a young naive Mormon man I was blissfully unaware of all the misogyny within Mormonism.
I was an active, endowed Mormon and was also a Freemason. I stayed a Mason after leaving the church. The connection is very difficult to deny.
Have you enjoyed masonry and found it has helped your life? I’ve entertained the idea of looking into it as I like the rituals and symbolism and expression of some faith in a supreme being, but without religious dogma.
@@jordanhintze1881 I for sure do!
@@jordanhintze1881 Absolutely!
not being either LDS or Masonic would you be able and willing to explain the eternal claims / effects within Masonry?
Thanks.
So... Be a Mason but don't be a Latter-day Saint?
I lived in a small town. Had to travel about 45 min. to church in the next town. There was nothing for kids to do in this small town so I joined the Rainbow Girls in this town with a few friends. They teach the hand shake and secrets were not allowed outside of the lodge. So when I went to the temple and saw the same things I already knew, I was shocked.
@@randyjordan5521 WHOA.. I am going to have to watch that movie. Thank you for sharing
My nieces are Rainbows!!!!
As the daughter of a Mason and an Eastern Star I became a Rainbow girl and had the same experience as you in the temple. After my first visit to the temple I had an interview with our stake president who asked how I felt about the temple ceremony, my response, "it reminded me of my Rainbow Girl ceremonies", where I went on to tell him both of my parents wrre members of lodges. The stake president looked a bit confused before going on to say some people were uncomfortable with their first experience in the temple, I just smiled and said I found it interesting how similar the temple ceremony was to a Masonic/Eastern Star/Rainbpw Girl ceremony was. The interview ended quickly after that and I was never asked these types of questions again, guess we know why. I left the church some years later after realizing how very little real teachings of JC were actually taught compred to Joseph Smith, my christian family were relieved when I departed the Mormons.
@@grannyvroomvroom2523 Freemasonry is not a creepy cult there are a lot of lies about Freemasons
@@Scott23882 GEORGE WASHINTON WAS A MOSON AS WELL AS ALL MEXICAN PRESINDENTS.THE OBELISK IS OSIRUS PENUS?WHY IN VATICAN ?DC ?CYTY IN LONDON?CALLED CLEPATRAS NEEDLE!REMEMBER THE EGYPTIANS WHERE SLAVE DRIVERS..AND GEORGE WASHINGTON HAS TWO OBELISKS IN HIS TOMB.!😱 LINKING THE MASONS TO THE MWO!YOUR WELCOME!
This episode is fascinating! Loving the LDS discussions series. I learn loads every single time. Thank you Mike, John and Nemo!
Also, if there is an afterlife, I think Joseph Smith is shaking his head and thinking "wow, people are even more gullible than I thought."
Excellent information. Interesting point about the "curse" church leaders used to destroy their enemies sounds like "spell casting." The creator of my soul is not the god of the LDS church. He/she does not need his creations to use blood sacrifices. The creator knows us, supports us in our time on this planet. Nothing surprises them, they are not angry, spiteful or cruel. What if the "god of this world" is Lucifer? It would make more sense, the way the world has operated for eons. After being a member for 71 years (attending the temple almost weekly for 31 yrs.), I started to question everything in 1995. I quite attending church in 2002. While I love the members, I can not partake in the lies and deception. The biggest regret of this lifetime was persuading my new husband to join the church and raising our children in the :gospel." The attitudes and teachings almost destroyed our family. We are still on the roles but do not need permission to leave the church. We left with all of the brainwashing to overcome. I am pleased to state that we have thrived mentally and emotionally without it. Shows like yours give me a voice and I am eternally grateful. Thank you all.
As if God would ask you to do a handshake and ask you questions. He knows we are all his children 🙄 doh!.
💯
I don't want to be a person who talks bad about a religion, but I can't remain quiet any longer.
I was what was called someone who was seeking a a different way to worship my Lord. I was approached by the missionary's of the Mormon church and started investing the religion.
I had several interesting discussions with them about my baptism and why it wasn't 'athurized'. I believe it was, they told me it wasn't. We would go around and around about it every time we met. I'm baptized! In a river! I was 12 and my 14 yr old brother was baptized the same day!
I finally attended the church services and got the surprise of my life!
All the time spent by the missionarys to save my soul by converting me to the true religion, not one mention of the Lord at the church services! What was talked about? Young girls camp and what was done there. ( No mention of God) and how we should keep shelves stocked up for up to a year or more.
All songs were directed to the profit and when they offered up prayers, they to were directed to the profit and not to God through Jesus.
At the Sunday School class, again no mention of God, Jesus or The Holy Spirit. We were taught to avoid caffeine in any form. Again no prayers.
I left feeling empty and hollow.
About 3 nights later, I was woken from a sound sleep by a voice I heard in my room. No one was there but I distinctly heard I should not have anymore dealings with the missionarys or the religion they promote. It will only get me into trouble.
The next day, when they came, I wouldn't let them in. When they asked me why, I told them what happened. They were both incredulous. Wouldn't believe me. I told them if they could believe it could happen to Smith, why couldn't they believe it could happen to me.
They left, but seen my 11 yr old son and waylaid him on his way home. Tried to get him to change my mind.
Mormons do not like it when an investigator has a revelation about their religion that puts them in a bad light.
I will not go back to a church that doesn't mention God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. They are the core of my Spiritual journey.
Have been a member for 53 years and never once heard a prayer directed to the profit. A couple hymns mention the prophet, but far more mention God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. Perhaps you could listen to the talks from the most recent General Conference and see if you feel differently afterwards. Of course, many other resources could also be helpful.
This is the fascinating thing about revelation. Why would God tell millions of people that the Book of Mormon is true, but He would tell you to stay away from the Mormons?
I don't believe God is telling those people that Mormonism is true. I believe they are being lead astray by false prophets and teachings.
I keep all the followers in my prayers. Anyone who believes they will be rulers of their own planet are definitely being lead in the wrong direction.
Do you know of any other religion that teaches this doctrine? No! They all teach One God, One ruler!
At 27:54. Thank you all for
showing how the
mormon temple
RITUALS WERE NEVER part
of anything at all in Solomon's
temple.
And thank you, John, for the particularly PITHY observa- tion concerning the Jews' unswerving adherence to-
and, therefore, the diligent,
and RIGHTLY JEALOUS
preservation of- specific
and definitional Jewish
observances, customs,
practices, rituals.
Thus, the ABSENCE of these,
including "garments", anywhere else in the world or in history flattens the
mormons' claim to be the "restoration" (let alone, the
"continuation"!)
of what could only
be accurately termed
JUDIANITY.
The best part of all these
expositions is that, whether js knew he was stealing or not, and whether he was even well-intentioned or at some
willful mischief, the FACT
remains that these
anomalies BRING the PROOF that this organization came
forward- and was sustained-
as a complete fabrication whose ultimate purpose was
the gaining of personal $$$,
territorial land-mass, and every form of power.
OVER ALL OTHER
PEOPLE.
Nothing more; nothing less.
My grandfather was a Mason his entire adult life. In the late 1990s-early 2000s, we were discussing Masonry, and he told me, in all seriousness, that the Masonic rituals originated with the stone masons who worked on King Solomon's Temple. I pushed back with historical facts along the lines of what was discussed in this podcast, but I got the distinct impression he did not believe me. If my grandfather believed that masonic rituals originated with the Biblical Hebrews as late as the turn of the 20th-21st centuries, then it is certainly possible that in the early 19th century, Joseph Smith et al truly believed they were perpetuating the actual rituals of the original Hebraic Priesthood -- it is exactly what the Masons of the time would have told them when they joined.
Hebrews are black though . According to the bible thats a fact .
Fascinating conversation. But again religion is man-made, but faith is faith in God alone. No men needed.
John that is such a crucial and amazingly logical point that you made at 27:20!!!! That thought alone blows the whole realization of the legitimacy of the Mormon temple, Freemasonry, Solomon's temple, Judaism out of the water!!
I like that instead of directly telling everything what happens during the endowment and criticize it to prove to everyone how culty it looks you guys respect the fact some people still believe, you approach this in a sensible way, I wish every lds saw this
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
Thanks for the map! I'm going to follow that path! @@ravenrockstudios
About the normalization of this ritual, I saw a short here on youtube from an lds channel of a girl saying that handshakes and pass codes are not really necessary to enter heaven, that it was a misconception, "in reality" those handshakes are an external reminder of the covenants with god, it made me face palm so hard. Same explanation they use for the garments
"When we try to compare to something we know is false, like 'The Book of Mormon', oh sorry, like 'Lord of the Rings'..." This had me chuckling. Great video everyone. I'm not Mormon (I was raised Protestant (UCC)) but I have always been interested in secret societies, esotericism, cult studies, religion, etc. I have an Associate's in Psychology, a Bachelor's in Forensic Psychology, and am more than halfway through my Master's in Forensic Psychology. I've taken the Psychology of Cults at the Master's level (PSY 719) and my research on restrictive, secretive religions led me to this podcast. Thank you for everything you do. It is so incredibly important to discuss harmful practices, corruption, and deceit, and to discuss pervasive questions regarding religion, science, history, etc. You all are helping so many people by delving so deeply into your own personal experiences, highlighting relevant and powerful experiences of others, and exposing incongruity in historical accounts from within Mormonism as well as overlap with other historical contexts and the LDS church (e.g., Masonry, Native American history, colonialism). Your videos are always so thorough, respectful, humorous, and incredibly informative. I'm fighting alongside you all against corruption and misinformation that leaves so much pain, shame, guilt, confusion, and harm in its wake. Thank you for everything you do.
Thank you for sharing. As a 65 year old who was raised in Mormonism outside of Utah and who suspected something was wrong in Mormonism from 12 years old because of it’s racist dogma I wish that I had had the internet to find help and assistance to leaving. I did leave twice. The brainwashing is deep and the fears installed in the brain are damaging to allowing people to believe they can be happy and safe outside of the belief.
I was told the Masons had the temple ceremony handed down through centuries and that it had been originally inspired and therefore it was of God.
@@abeautifulworldnow thank you for sharing your experience as well. I'm glad you were able to leave if it was harming you and your psyche. I hope you've been able to rebuild your life and I hope you find you've found fulfilment and empowerment despite the circumstances you were placed in. Wishing you all the best.
@Andromeda Rose Wow, impressive. Wish I were young enough to pursue a path like that. Best wishes! Love your enthusiasm.
@@LittleOrla thank you! It's never too late to learn more about what interests you! Best wishes as well
I asked my mother-in-law about the penalties because I knew she was a regular at the temple at the time. She told me she had never heard of it. Evidence of how secret it is being kept or how scared one is of the consequences for speaking out.
If she got her endowment after 1990, she would not have known about those penalties. The church had removed them from the ceremony.
Her mother-in-law is 65+ years old. She definitely did sessions in her life with the penalties.
@mgeuleinstsear well if one did take such an oath why would they violate their honor to God to tell you about it?
I felt the spirit of confirmation during this episode. It was called reason.
I’m a new follower of your podcast. I was recommended your podcast here on my UA-cam feed. My interest in Mormonism lies in the fact that my mother was raised in the LDS Church. She left when she was 17, so I was not raised in the church, although it’s not been for a lack of trying from some of my mother’s family members who are still in the church. My children were even put on the Temple prayer list after they were diagnosed with certain medical conditions. Your podcast has helped answer so many questions I’ve had that seem to make my mother or her family members uncomfortable when I ask them. This video in particular is of great interest as my mother’s father (my Grandfather) was a member in the LDS Church but was also a Mason, but left the Masonry because elders at the Church urged him to. Thank you so much for this podcast and what you do.
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
I’ve been wondering if the great and spacious building is
“the church”
I had this same thought a while ago. It certainly seems like the church is man mingled with scripture
The Great and Spacious Building is the pride of the world that mocks believers who are trying to hold on to their religious beliefs. So no, it wouldn't be the church. The church is what Believers are trying to hold on to.
If you don't believe the Vision of the Tree of Life is real then the question is moot.
Thank you. It’s the same as saying the church teachings for thousands of years were incorrect yet many of the traditions and ideologies of the LDS were taken from the Catholic Church and then added some twist to it with a new interpretation. So many examples I couple provide from what I’ve recently learned about the LDS church. In fact ending the Judaism practice of only some allowed into temples and their ritual and sacrifice placed above faith was core to what was Jesus considered corrupt. The destruction of the temple when Jesus was crucified is believed to be a sign of the covenant fulfilled.
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the Gospel. If you've met some LDS member who doesn't understand that then the solution is for them to correct their individual understanding.
Basically, "too sacred to talk about" = "too embarrassing to talk about" .
An obvious question: Are the rituals and words used in the temple more sacred than baptism and the sacrament? Baptism and the sacrament are done in public, in full view of members and non-members alike. They purportedly are essential to salvation and relate directly to the atonement, which is ostensibly the most profoundly important event in the entire theology and plan of salvation believed in by Mormons. Why is it fine for literally anyone to see these ordinances and rituals and talk about them, but it's not okay for anyone but tithepaying "worthy" Mormons to see what goes on in the temple and not okay even for them to talk about what goes on in the temple when they are outside of the temple? "Sacred but not secret" makes no sense at all, when the way Mormons act and talk about the temple literally turns "sacred" into a synonym of "secret".
Another question: If baptism for the living can be viewed by anyone and talked about freely, why is baptism for the dead treated as something that can only be done behind the closed doors of the temples? Isn't it supposed to be the same ordinance? Are the priesthood "keys" for performing baptisms for the dead only functional inside a temple building?
Similarly, why would a temple wedding need to be performed only behind the closed doors of a temple, with non-tithepaying "unworthy" people rigorously denied entry? The secrecy (i.e. "sacredness" in Mormon parlance) probably made sense when polygamous unions (i.e. licenses to commit adultery and fornication) were secretly being dispensed by Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, while the practice was being publicly denied. In modern times, the secrecy makes no sense at all. "Oh, Brother Snotgrosser, it's really sad that you can't go see your only daughter's wedding ceremony in the temple. But, as your bishop, I warned you that if you failed to pay a full tithing this year, you could not be found worthy of receiving a "temple recommend" and you just had to make things worse by insisting that you felt that God told you it was okay to drink coffee. So, things are what they are and there's nothing I can do for you. Please enjoy sitting on the nicely upholstered sofa in the outer lobby, while all of your worthy family members are inside seeing your daughter get married."
The "new names," signs, tokens and penalties literally make no sense in the Mormon temple context. I have yet to meet a true-believing Mormon who can find any logical meaning in any of it. The best you get are ad hoc attempts to create symbolic meanings that are not confirmed officially by the church leaders. Justifications like "test of faith" and "test of obedience" are very often thrown into the mix, as they are with regard to every facet of Mormonism that makes no sense.
This episode now two days old sports 11K views which is statistically significant as to the interest in Mormon false “truth claims.”
Thanks Elder Holland for letting the BBC’s John Sweeney catch you with your garments down. 😂
Please have Nemo as a guest in this series more often! Well done again, all of you.
My step-grandfather was a Mason and while I an inactive teen I was in Job’s Daughters. When I went to the temple for endowment and sealing - the familiarity in theme and verbiage made it seem “normal” and not strange.
I didn't realize the temple had a naughty list where they wish the worst on people. Lol
I didn't either!
Your comments about Mormons loving Jews rings true for me but it's by no means unique to them. Post-Restorationist Christians - Evangelicals, for example - are the ones most obsessed with us (Jews). That desire to get back to "The True Religion of Jesus" is a fallacy, since for 1500 years all trace of Judaizing Christians - and of Judaism itself - was subject to violent repression by the dominant Christian factions (most notably, Roman Catholics). As a result, Jewish traditions have been evolving and growing very much separate from 2nd Temple Judaism (the Judaism of Jesus' day). But Protestant denominations spent so much time blotting out any ritual that might smell of "Popery" or "Papism" that eventually, they had nothing left. That's why they're taking our ceremonies like the Passover seder, or blowing the shofar, or wearing a prayer shawl. They wrongly assume "if it's Jewish, it must also be Christian history" when that ritual was developed apart, hundreds of years post-Jesus, often under the threat of Christian violence.
Brilliant @Rff Chick. Please come on my podcast.
- John
@@mormonstories John, I'm honored, but I don't feel confident to be able to come onto the pod, not by myself for sure. But I'd be willing to come on with a Rabbi or other Jewish scholar, maybe... We (Jews) haven't had much interaction with Mormons - much more with Evangelicals who try to trick us into converting by setting up "Messianic Jewish Synagogues" and saying "Yeshua" instead of "Jesus." Evangelicals are uniquely, creepily eager to convert us. Mormons just want to baptize EVERYone! And you know, I respect that a lot more. But talking to a Jewish scholar about Jewish history - what Jews actually did, how thoroughly absent of ancient Jewish culture the Book of Mormon really is, that would be a fascinating show and I'd definitely watch.
I second you should go on this podcast! (I am her friend :) ) Emily's deep spirituality and unique journey is worth talking about in both on its own and in a larger context.
*I may be biased.
All the Masonic influence/theft was the biggest break for me- I had already left the church for mental health reasons, but learning about the Masonic connections was the biggest reason I could say with confidence that JS wasn't a prophet and that I'd never go back to the church. I had been Mormon my whole life and knew NOTHING about JS being a Mason, any Masonic connections, or really anything about Masonry. It's hard to see the quantity of similarities and exact copies from Masonry and not feel deceived by the church about the origins of the temple endowment ceremony at the very least! But Masonry is woven throughout Mormonism, not just in the temple, as Mormonism Live covered very well with Cheryl Bruno and her book Method Infinite.
His father and brother were masons as well as was Brigham Young.
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
I always thought Joseph Smith was killed more for breaking Masonic Secrecy rules. If I remember correctly, Joseph cried during the fight at the jail “Will no one help the widow’s son?” That is a Masonic distress signal.
He wasn't killed for breaking Masonic secrecy rules, but those who killed him broke their Masonic vows when they did not extend help to him when he gave the Masonic sign of distress and cried out, "O Lord, my God. Is there no mercy for the widow's son?" It's late right now. I might not have typed that verbatim. I knew the guy who did a big article on that.
As a mason and Mormon, I can't help but agree with all of the connections. When I went through the royal arch degree, there was a part of the ceremony that was almost identical to the veil ceremony in the temple
Which did you go through first?
@@mwillis7791 masonry. I did the royal arch/York Rite in September 2016. I joined the church in July 2016. Got my endowment in 2021 and was shocked by the changes
@@steveambrose2349 I agree 100% :) I’m slowly making my way out of the church
@@ksg-357 I'm curious, is the Free Mason organization religious? I was under the impression they were political or something. Or like a club of wealthy people who like to have secret meetings. Help me understand this better, please.
Freemasonry is a-political and non-sectarian. It encourages members to practice their individual faiths as they see fit. It also encourages members to engage in civil society and to defend the freedoms they hold dear through lawful, non-violent means.
Those things have not always been true in the past.
To be a Freemason, you must profess a belief in a Supreme Being. That is the only time the member’s faith practices are scrutinized.
Modern Freemasonry is primarily a charitable organization.
Watching and still learning one year after this episode hit UA-cam. Great work Mormon Stories staff👏
Fun fact: tons of Masonic symbols around Salt Lake. If you go to the basement of the Salt Lake library, past the bathrooms, there’s a teeny tiny plaque in the floor stating the masons built it. Given how divorced the church is now from the masons, it’s pretty interesting. You also can tour the Masonic Temple in Salt lake which I highly recommend.
It’s unlikely that Masons “built” the SLC library. One of the major public ceremonies that Masons do is the laying of the cornerstone of a building (always in the northeast corner BTW).
It’s quite an involved ceremony and impressive to witness. You might be surprised at whom of the attendees is wearing an apron (Mayor, City Council, legislators, etc)!
Read Brigham Young's blood atonement sermons. Then look into the mountain meadows massacre. Then look into what old Brigham liked to refer as his band of "destroying angels" aka dannites in the 1850s and onward.
@@ravenrockstudioswhere can you find this? Is it in the Discourses of Brigham Young?
@@stevewitten Could it mean that they raised and donated a substantial amount of money to have the library built? The Mason's are known for many philanthropic endeavors in these current times.
i hated the endowment, but the pressure was too much to leave for years
My Father was a Mason and my Mother was Eastern Star. My Ex Mormon friend explained all this to me after he left the church. I was shocked.
My Grandad was a Mason. The only thing we knew about it was the "Lodge" Christmas party for kids each year. I'm a New Zealander and most young New Zealanders go and live in the UK for a couple of years. When I was living in London in 1991/2 one of the big Lodges in London actually opened its doors to the public to have a look around. When my Grandad died in 1986 when I was 17 the Masons had a part in his funeral where they walked around the coffin and each one laid a bit of cedar on his coffin. I have to say it was a bit creepy because I didn't understand it.
As I understand the Masonic Lodge as it is now, it is a sort of a benevolent society that is a non-Christian sort of non profit and it gives money to causes or people or communities who need it at that time. I think the Masons believe in charity, the law and some kind of supreme (non-religious) being. I could be wrong but from conversations I have had in recent years with people with connections to the Masonic Lodge (in New Zealand) this is my understanding.
Not only “non-Christian” but fiercely non-sectarian... Although prayers are offered and blessings invoked, these actions are done in the name of the “Great Architect of the Universe” and not any sectarian appellation of the Supreme Being. Even the Holy Bible that is open during Masonic meetings is not the literal "Holy Bible" -- it is a symbol of Ultimate Truth -- and referred to as the "Volume of the Sacred Law."
I’ve been a Mason for 40 years and witnessed thousands of degrees in many different (US) States and countries. It’s always the same… The ritual does not preclude the presence of other holy books on a Masonic altar (there is one lodge I visit often that features a BoM, the Vedas and the Tao Te Ching on the altar), only the Holy Bible (KJV) is open.
There are only two topics that are forbidden to discuss in a Masonic lodge meeting- politics.and religion.
Most lodge buildings are open to the public. There's no mysterious secrets inside them. Visit one if you really want to see what's inside. Masons are proud of their meeting places and will explain to you (in excruciating detail) what all of it means.
@@stevewitten before the one in London opened its doors to the public for an open day in 1992, I don't think many Lodges in Britain or New Zealand were open to the public. I think it would have been great to be able to understand what went on in there, especially because they played a part in my Grandad's funeral. He was the first person close to me that I had lost and, although he was nearly 80, he had never been sick. He was literally on his way to work when he had a heart attack and died on the spot. My Grandma went to church every Sunday (Presbyterian) and was quite involved with it but Grandad not so much.
I think it's very wise to forbid those two topics. I might incorporate that rule into my home. Every time my Dad comes around for dinner, he wants to talk about politics and my children and I don't necessarily agree with his ideas. I think he thinks that if he says it louder, he will get us to agree. .A complete ban would be a great idea, maybe in neon lights so he doesn't miss it.🤣🤣🤣
Freemason’s Hall in Great Queen Street, London, headquarters of the United Grand Lodge of England, is open to the public. They give tours and the museum there is just as fascinating. My wife & I toured there in the middle of the day. Had it been closed to non-members, my wife would never have been allowed in. I think the only time it's closed during the (week-) day is when the building is in use.
The place where my lodge meets is Scottish Rite Center that is, not only open to the public, but available for public rental. The Blue Lodge room is seldom rented but I wouldn't say that it's sealed tight to prevent non-member access. I know that all of our wives, kids, grandkids, etc have been in there at one time or another.
Any member of any lodge that meets there or any member of the Scottish Rite Center staff would be happy to show it to you and explain what everything in there means. The only courtesy we ask is that you make an appointment.
Nah they evil
Something not mentioned (even though as a TBM I tried to convince myself otherwise) - the endowment ceremony is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo boring.
The BOM is chloroform in print? Mark Twain should'a gone for his endowment.
President Packer said it would be boring to those without the Spirit with them.
Finally have some time to watch this! This is just the best series ever.
I remember my TBM friend in 9th or 10th grade explaining to me that lots of religions throughout the world have pieces of the truth, but the LDS church had all of it. So by her logic, it was ok that part of the temple ceremony “overlapped” with certain aspects of masonry, which shows how much members will justify their beliefs even though clearly it was a copy. But because of that I feel like I was less concerned when people talked about masonry and the temple, because I’d already been introduced to the idea slowly and didn’t do any in depth research into it. Lots of crazy ways TBM’s will justify some whack beliefs and rituals in the church
What is TBM?
@@lawpenner True believing mormon
Awesome job guys! Another great episode. Great insight from Nemo. Well done.
Love seeing Nemo on Mormon stories. Great episode!
Mormons are the only other people I have heard talk about "gentiles" other than Jewish people. I grew up around a lot of Jewish families and our family was one of the few gentile families in that kind of extended family friend group. We were one of the first gentile families to go to a Bar Mitzvah in our city. The family having the Bar Mitzvah had to get special permission for us to attend. I'm used to it now bit hearing you guys talking about gentiles kind of jarred in the beginning. Now I understand the Mormon "obsession" with being close to the Jewish and Judaism, I also understand the Mormon use of the word.
As I learn about the LDS religion, I have realized how the church has to make explanations to justify disturbing aspects of Mormonism, so to hold their members. Before the internet, members were left not knowing the truth, while the church leaders would withhold the truth. Read "The Allegory of the Cave" by Plato and it will open your eyes.
Before the Internet I learned tons of stuff on my own, so much that I didn't get bothered if some other member didn't know everything. I was fine with lots of learning and inquiring and still am.
Perhaps a useful note: the geometric compass was invented by Galileo in the late 16th century. It did not exist before that, and it certainly did not exist in the time of Solomon. So, if Joseph Smith sought to restore the Masonic ritual to its initial glory, why would he incorporate a symbol which was invented a thousand years later?
Fan fiction keeps getting brought up and i thought it was a valid comparison at first, but as a lifelong fan fiction reader I think it's actually a maligning fan fiction to say that's what Joseph was doing: fan fiction is the use of beloved established characters and worlds to create new works by and for fans who just can't get enough of whatever the intellectual property is... That's NOT what Joseph is doing. If he was a lover and believer in JC, he wouldn't present himself as a false prophet. He doesn't love or even respect the original material, so he cannot by definition be a "fan"
Fan fiction never seeks to defraud or deceive it's readers, or masquerade as content created or authorized by the IP's original author. Fan fiction is free and no strings are attached to reading and enjoying it. Fan fiction has more reverence for it's source material than Joseph Smith has for the Bible
Wow. What a great point. Calling the Book of Mormon Bible fan fiction is actually an insult to fan fiction.
I tend to disagree. The more I study Mormonism, the more I feel that Joseph believed his own narrative himself, and that he created a religion which is consistent in itself. The trouble of Mormonism in modernity is that it is incompatible with outside facts (historical criticism, DNA, evolution, timeline of the Bible composition, etc.) But these were unknown to Joseph. Similarly, Joseph probably believed that Freemasonry did date back to Solomon's temple but was somehow corrupted, and his restoration was based on some kind of creative visionary process.
The best analogy I could come up with is this: imagine you buy one of these expensive Lego packs, e.g. of the Taj Mahal, and then your son takes the pieces and builds something completely different, e.g. a Sphinx. So Christianity and Mormonism use the same pieces, but end up in a totally different composition. The debate whether Mormonism is Christian is exactly this: "We used the same pieces." "Yes, but you put them together into something vastly different." 🤷♂️
Fascinating presentation on many levels. As someone with limited exposure to Mormonism, I am impressed by the sociology of the spread of Joseph Smith's "vision." If you get a whole bunch of people believing X is from God, a huge movement with good and bad elements evolves. Religion is the metaphor through which we transcend and feel connected to something bigger than ourselves. Most of us get stuck in the metaphor and miss the transcendence.
Another great learning episode. Thank you!
So I’m 40 and was brought into the church at 3 years old. We became inactive when my mom divorced when I was 12 so I was baptized. I went back to church in my 30’s and I have had questions and truly wanted to learn and get a temple recommendation but after listening to this , I truly think I have been told I’m “ not quite ready yet“ because I am very inquisitive. It would hurt my heart so much when they would bring in a convert and they would get baptized immediately and got to temple like a couple of months later and here I was 8years in “ not quite ready yet“
I was born and raised in the church. I left at age 19 but put my faith journey on pause until the pandemic happened 6 years later. Since then, I've brought up my questions about the plan of salvation and the nature of God to current members. I've been told, "well you just don't understand it correctly..." HOW? Missionaries give 6 lessons to an investigator and think they're ready for baptism. How was I a member for so long and attended every meeting for 19 years and I don't understand the basic plan of salvation? All I'm doing is pointing out how it's not a fair system. Not everyone fits into this celestial kingdom box and God is going to punish them for it? It doesn't make sense. I'm asking them to make it make sense for me and when they can't, they tell me I just don't understand it correctly. You'll only be ready for the kingdom of heaven when you stop asking questions and eat the BS you're being spoon fed with a big smile.
@@unicorntamer2207 The time of telling people to not ask questions is in the past. I'm a member. What questions do you have that I can help you with?
@@CMZIEBARTH It's a little late for me. After two years of really looking and considering what to do, I officially resigned. My bishop couldn't answer my questions in a way that made sense. But here's a question for you: if the LDS church is the restored gospel/the church is true, why was there ever such a period of time of dismissing questions?
@@unicorntamer2207 That was never fully the case, but that mindset did proliferate a little too much. President Ballard a few years back put an end to it when he said that the time for telling people to not ask questions is over. Before that there were still people who knew that asking questions could actually lead to an individual learning further light and knowledge. This is about individual enlightenment, not about making people slaves to a church. When it is done right such an individual will know how to be guided by the light of the Holy Spirit on their own while also seeing and helping with the Church's divine mission but without being stuck in some blind obedience mode. It's a new era now. Some were there before, but even more are getting there now. It enables you to see the light of the tree of life while you hold fast to the iron rod even when you are traversing through philosophical mists of darkness. This can be done. Trying to help in my own small way. I know it's successfully done when someone else no longer needs such help but becomes like Jesus Christ who needed not that any man should teach him, when they advance from leaning on someone else's testimony to gaining their own solid testimony. We are approaching the day when the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea, and no man need say to his neighbor, "Know ye the Lord," for all shall know him. Discussing more of this with a friend via text right now, but am wondering if I should start a small group somewhere to really dig into some of this.
@@CMZIEBARTH What exactly are you trying to "digg"? Are you wondering why people leave the LDS church? Are you wondering what questions they have and are struggling with? I you wondering why they lose trust in the general authorities? Or are you wondering how to get people back? I've got plenty to share if you actually want to know. And I didn't even have a bad experience in the LDS church. I just had some big realizations, and then I stumbled upon more truth than I intended to find in the first place. It's a long story that would be easier to email. If you give me your email, I'll happily tell you my experience.
Freemasonry is a society of men concerned with moral and spiritual values. Its members are taught its principles (moral lessons and self-knowledge) by a series of ritual dramas (called "degrees") - a progression of allegorical two-part plays which are learned by heart and each performed within a lodge - which follow ancient forms, and use stonemasons’ customs and tools as allegorical guides.
The only things that are truly secret in Freemasonry are:
- the precise details of the degree rituals (there are 3 degrees -- Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft and Master Mason); and
- the "modes of recognition" (handshakes, grips, words, etc).
Most Masons are proud of the fact that they are. They are also tremendously proud of the amount of good works done by Masons world-wide...often anonymously...for no other reason that good works are the right thing to do.
The degrees of Freemasonry have nothing to do with any ancient Hebrew rituals that may have taken place in the King Solomon's Temple. The building of King Solomon's Temple is only the historical backdrop for the presentation of the clearly Enlightenment notions of free thinking and inquiry unfettered from the dogma of the Church and the monarchy. The Masonic degrees are very English/Scottish and very 18th century in language and ideas. Nothing about the degrees can even remotely be considered "divine". Any good Mason will tell you quite honestly that Freemasonry is a creation of Man...not of God.
I’ve found references to Free Masonry as far as 1145 BCE. Fascinating group.
PS. I just finished a book with some interesting facts on Free Masonry. Title: “Myths, Mushrooms and Mithras”.
You’re right…those references do exist. However the Free Masonry (note spelling) of the 12th century was very much an operative trade guild and not the speculative philosophical society that exists today. While the modern Masonic degrees contain many ideas (and even words and phrases) from these rituals, there are also many modern things that are NOT present. The most noticeable of these is the use of the building of King Solomon's Temple as the historical backdrop.
In a 12th century guild of stonemasons, where nearly all members were illiterate, these rituals were an oral tradition used to teach a boy (an apprentice) how to grow to be an honorable man as well as a competent workman. In a society of illiterate members engaged in the practice the technical disciplines of architecture and construction engineering, instruction had to be mouth-to-ear and the stonemasons' tools evolved into allegorical guides to moral conduct (e.g. "the compass teaches us to circumscribe our desires and keep our passions within due bounds toward all mankind"...a monitorial piece of the lecture of the Entered Apprentice degree). Rituals are impressive to humans...facilitating the retention of transmitted knowledge.
Modern Freemasonry is very much a creation of the (English) Enlightenment.
On secrecy... Secrecy is more of a traditional thing...part of the "mystique" if you will... For a supposed "secret society", Freemasonry has the worst kept secrets in the world. You can search on the internet or go to the public library and find many scholarly descriptions and interpretations of the signs, grips and words.
The truth is that the "secrets of Freemasonry" are symbolic and the meaning of this powerful symbol can only be learned by becoming a Mason and taking the degrees.
Interesting review of the literature and history. I can't believe how little I was taught about the temple.
I love in the scriptures, both Book of Mormon & Bible, where Jesus or a prophet is asked a tricky question, but through discernment and power of God, they're able to see through the trick and confound the critic. But when Holland goes up against a BBC reporter, Holland looks like a fool and a liar.
When I went to the temple the only thing I ever learned was that I found it ridiculous that I had to go through a man to talk to and need a secret handshake to get to God. I never got anything out of it but a headache. It made no sense. The temple workers were snarky when I couldn't remember the things you had to say, the creation movie was obvious, and i didn't like an old lady touching me in intimate places. It was all just silly to me.
Thank you for sharing, I never went back to the temple for a long long time, when I noticed on the temple of a symbol of that "All Seeing Eye" it made me questionable. I still go to church and have been a member all my life--but never really gained a testimony of the church. Some how it didn't make sense to me in many ways as I observe quietly during my years in the membership of this church. Every time when an event happens unexpectedly like 9/11. the plandemic, and the recent fake man-made unnatural wildfires in Maui-----each time these events AWAKENS me more & more to find out as a researcher of more exposed hidden truths and lies--this is good when we become MORE awaken to find out about the truth of all things. Thanks for doing what you folks are doing.
Pres. Kimball said that he hoped that "all members will be cautioned against this [Adam-God "theory"] and all other kinds of false doctrine." Wait a damn minute! So members were supposed to be able to discern as false what was uttered from the mouths of 11 previous prophets before him -- generation after generation -- [including the priesthood ban] and therefore preemptively NOT participate in false theories/practices in the temple for generations because the members should have been aware? Were the members, therefore, indeed led astray for having been taught false doctrine? So BY was a false prophet? As all of you (John, Nemo and Mike) asserted, how could something so "false" have been ritualized in the "holiest" of holy places on earth? Why were members duped for 150 or so years (and others will continue to be "through all generations of time and throughout all eternity")?
Now you begin to understand what happens when members feel free to actually think things through.
Brigham Young and Heber C Kimball had a hand in Joseph Smith’s death and they hijacked the church and introduced temple endowments (freemasonry mixed with their own stuff) and polygamy. So, I think it’s wise to question every practice, quote, source, and “doctrine” since Brigham Young bc that’s when everything cultish came into play. Joseph translated the Book of Mormon which went hand in hand with the Bible. Saved by grace! Controlling Brigham Young brought the “saved by works” idea bc he was a tyrant and ruled through threats and gaslighting.
You can watch Rob Fotheringham’s videos on UA-cam, read “The Exoneration of Emma, Joseph, & Hyrum” or Whitney Horning’s book that Joseph didn’t start polygamy, as a start.
@@mbw127 Okay, but I sure as hell don't give a damn who started polygamy (there's too much evidence to support that JS did, so those that think otherwise are fooling themselves, imho). The fact that it existed in the "restored" church is enough for me to say that leaders acted on libidinous propensities, displayed wanton disregard for women, and were void of any divine inspiration.
@@proffernot5485 I won't argue otherwise. I do think it's unjust to attribute such horrors to someone who fought against them, though, and merely became the true perpetrators' scapegoats. Their racism and sexism have been deeply deplorable. Thank goodness God disapproves of that abuse and is no respecter of persons!
So because they consider it sacred doesn’t mean it is. Lies are lies
I absolutely love your content. Thank you so much for this video at one hour and 17 minutes the clip with the interview of Holland and the reporter is absent. May I ask why?
Copyright claims.
how was i missing this great channel and awesome host and podcasters! thank you for sharing your education and for makinkg your knowledge and opinion known to wide audience!
@Mormon Stories Podcast
How do I go about being excommunicated? I don’t want to resign or have my membership removed. I would like a trial. Any suggestions how I could achieve that?
Dave, go tell your bishop you no longer believe the church and request a High Council court with the Stake Presidency. That should do it.
In Freemasonry, the fastest way to get booted out is to engage in any kind of hazing that compromises a (new) member’s personal dignity or safety. Hazing is simply not tolerated.
Start posting about Mormonism on social media.
When practicing Metaphysical teachings, you can not understand them or gain from them without Empowerments. You can't be Empowered by someone who does not truly understand them or lacks the metaphysical training to pass on the teachings. Similar practices can be found in many Metaphysical or Mystic traditions. Having a Mystic Temple does not make a church a cult. Bringing people to a temple without training and understanding on the other hand does imply a cult, since such a practice removes the aspect of free will we all deserve to have respected.
Joseph Smith became a Mason in March of 1842 and the temple endowments were introduced in May of 1842. Obviously March comes before May so he was a Mason BEFORE the endowments came into existence.
Correct. Not only was JSmithJr a Master Mason but he HAD to be a member of the Chapter of the Holy Royal Arch too. The Chapter is considered a "concordant body" (it's the first of 3 bodies of the York Rite). However, in the 19th century, the degrees of the Royal Arch were considered such an indispensible adjunct to the degrees of the "Blue Lodge" (EA, FC & MM), that most Master Masons (especially Past Masters) went right into the Royal Arch (degrees 4-7...these designations are little more than convenient notation -- not any significance of "increased importance").
In the 19th century, the Royal Arch was so important that it was considered a necessary extension to the degrees of the Blue Lodge. You simply weren't truly a Mason until you had taken the degrees of the Royal Arch.
The entire lecture at the veil (and indeed the symbol of the veil itself) is lifted directly from the Royal Arch (the 7th degree). There are no mentions of "the veil" in the Blue Lodge degrees. Furthermore, the inscription "Holiness to the Lord" appears above the front entrance of every temple (at least for the dozen or so that I've seen). This same inscription appears above the station of the High Priest in a Chapter of Royal Arch lodge room.
Today, the Royal Arch is not quite so important...and very much optional to being considered a "real Mason."
See: royalarchcolorado.org/index.php/the-degrees/
This was awesome! Mike, John, and Nemo- I’m still perplexed by the garments. Where did that idea come from?
Exodus 28:2-3 and 29:4-9, 21, 29 are a couple examples.
Have you done a discussion already on Joseph Smith's 40 wives and, in particular, the 12 to 14 women he married who were still married to their own husbands? The church made press release on this in October 2014 but I'm guessing this is not being discussed at all in church classes and meetings.
They Are attempting to build a temple in Cody Wyoming, everybody who cares about the skyline or what our community represents to all the people going in and out of YNP need to watch this and thank you all for your selfless work
Building one in Springfield Missouri. It’s insane
The idea that God would require ANY outward ordinances to get to "heaven" is just ridiculous in my mind, especially something as trivial as a handshake. So does that mean not doing one of these sacred ordinances right undoes any actual good things you did on this Earth like raising a family and loving your kids and sacrificing for them? I would think that would count for a whole lot more than wording in a ceremony or ordinance. Is it just me or am I missing something? Let's face it, this church is an elitist club, not run by God.
Anybody have a timestamp for the BBC clip they referenced at ~1:17:00?
Remember Joseph told Brigham that the endowment wasn’t quite as it should be and was told he Brigham was to improve on it!
Is there a good source for direct quotes from Joseph Smith regarding the temple ceremonies rather than hearsay quotes from later leaders of the church?
Exactly. Every single thing said is hearsay of Joseph. Heber C Kimball was the one involved heavily and deeply in Freemasonry and Brigham Young was the one who got involved with spiritual wifery with the Cochranites in Saco, Maine where he served his mission (and traveled to multiple times, sleeping with multiple women and eventually marrying them.. women who were actually still married) were the ones who introduced Freemasonry, temples, and endowments AND polygamy. They re-wrote history and claimed that everything they did was taught by Joseph Smith but there’s literally no proof or remotely helpful source of that being true. It is ONLY hearsay about Joseph. So, yes, freemasonry was infused by Mormon leaders into Mormonism but it wasn’t done by Joseph Smith!!!!
@@mbw127 Thank you for this clarity!! So vital! HOW can an argument be taken seriously and literally when the supporting documents lack substantiation? Contemporary testimonies cannot have the same merit as recollections decades later... Claims from an enemy, while possibly true, must be considered in light of their source. This video discussion is truly eye opening but it attributes the works of BY, HCK, and others incorrectly to JS. That blind of an assumption, unfortunately, casts doubt on other important points presented in this video.
@@rebecca4770 Well said!
Wow. This episode cuts deep. It’s so necessary. It’s painful to learn the truth of all this, but so important. The lies and negative harm the church perpetuates doesn’t negate the good they do, but the lies and harm is still there and needs to be recognized. If someone has informed consent and knows the truth and chooses to stay okay. The fact that the lies and gaslighting of the church tears apart families and relationships just to protect the prophetic narrative of Joseph smith and continue to benefit from the members makes me so so sad.
Interesting how Heber C Kimball talks about the priesthood apostasy of Solomon and David’s time but still held that polygamy was true priesthood doctrine of exaltation from David and Solomon. The double standard is so blatant! 🙄
Quote please.
I grew up Mormon but drifted away from the church as a youth so I never went through all the temple stuff because I was never "worthy" enough to go, so I literally laughed out loud for a good 30 seconds when you said God supposedly requires us to perform secret handshakes with an angel through a veil in order to get into heaven. That may well be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard 🤦♂️😂
The church does not have a gospel topics essay on masonry but it does have a church history topics page on it
Have you ever addressed the heavy alterations yo JS journals by BY?
Amazing how God is constantly changing his mind!
Do you have links to the historical documents that show it was JS that introduced this and not BY?
Does anyone know about temple names used in other countries with other languages?? Is everyone given the same names regardless of language?? That seems a bit off to me if that’s the case!