I've been praying for about six months: "Lord, by Thy Grace, bring me closer unto Your Love" and when listening to this conversation I've been overcome with: Here it is...my Cross. God bless you both! Sincerely, An Orthodox homeschooling mother of 4
Thanks Austin, I love Dr. Constantinou. Strong woman with a deep love for her podcast listeners and book readers. She reminds me of my Aunt, who was a college professor. She was a tough, smart women who would set you straight in a heartbeat, but always with deep motherly love. That's Dr. Jeanie, for sure!
I am lucky enough to have one of Dr Genie's students right here in my diocese. She is absolutely amazing and I highly recommend her Search the Scriptures Bible study podcast.
“He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, by his wounds we are healed. We all like sheep have gone astray, and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:5&6. Jesus laid down his life, no one took it from him. His love for us compelled him. Praise His holy name!
Wow! I have been a part of the Christian church all my long life. I was brought up by nuns, educated by them and by priests, studied Divinity for three years and went on to teach and read many, many books. I was raised a Catholic and became an Evangelical and read the Bible every day and attend Bible Study groups. I have listened to numerous sermons but now I can say, I have been waiting for this. Thank you Lord for bringing this to my attention. My search for truth has been continuous and I feel a wonderful peace, at last, at the opening of this new door, leading to further exploration of the most important topic in all of life, so beautifully explained by Eugenia Constantinou. Amen.
Welcome to Orthodoxy and what an excellent introduction you've had by Dr Eugenia Constantinou. There are many more theologians and people of God since the first years of Christianity until this day that speak about the old and new testament and do so with the help of the Holy Spirit and that is what any soul stops and listens to. Not human logic and countless of fruitless analyses of 'Bible Study groups'. You need God to understand God and that is what Orthodoxy is about. The original, authentic and unblemished faith in the Holy Trinity. The more you delve into this the more wonders you will uncover. God bless you sister.
Thinking Orthodox is my favorite Christian book, not just Orthodox Faith book, ever.And, her podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio have been extremely educational. She's not just for Orthodox Christians.
Austin, I have to say this is one of the most fascinating discussions you've ever had on your channel, which is saying a whole lot considering how interesting the discussions on your channel are!! Thank you SO much for doing these discussions and bringing us along on the journey of continuing to explore/examine the Christian faith.
Thank you for this video, being a Christian Orthodoxy I very rarely hear Orthodox priest talking about Crucifixion of Christ as payment for our sins! In orthodox Christianity we hear often about the love of God and Christ for us, so thank Dr Constantinou for mentioning the Catholic /Protestant concept that diminishes the high values of Christ message , that all He did was Out of Love ❤️ for Us.
Thank you for hosting Teacher Eugenia. She has been such an instrumental vessel in my growth and understanding. May God bless you both for this illuminating discussion.
All Glory to God for Dr. Constantinou truly she’s a wonderful treasure in the Orthodox Christian community. Not only is she worldly valued because of her knowledge but most importantly spiritually value as a presbytera ( Priest wife) something that was not mention as her credentials. She has so many talks and lecture that are greatly edifying to ones spiritual walk and understanding of the Orthodox Christian Faith and mindset. ☦️💕
Dr Eugenia - your such an inspiration to me! Your passion and knowledge is amazing. I love studying 2nd temple Judaism but never thought to study the Roman thought during That time also. Thank you!
So glad that Dr Constantinou passionately spoke on the Love of God as the explanation of the cross and not what we hear spread today that its simply to pay our sin debt. Even Christians who believe they have a sin debt from each mistake oscillate between righteous and sinner constantly. What a watery gospel it is now. Thank God for the Grace revolution 🔥
Thank you, UA-cam algorithm, for suggesting Gospel Simplicity to me. Every video I watch I’m more and more and more fascinated, I learn so much, and intellectually as well as spiritually invigorated. Keep doing what you do, Austin! This channel is a gift!
I can't thank you enough Austin for this awesome interview. I enjoyed it so much and was left was more so ordered the book right away. It arrived today so I'll be starting to read it after posting this comment! Thanks again and God bless you. As a Catholic I love the dialouges you have and your quest for Christian unity. I wish you and your wife a healthy and blessed marriage. God bless and please get Dr. Constantinou on again.
Thank you so much for this incredible presentation and for the great book recommendation. I think it is very important to respond in charity to the Protestant claim of penal substitution because it does stem from the Catholic Church's great mind, St. Anselm who said ""Jesus paid a debt he didn't owe because we owed a debt we couldn't pay" In fact, growing up Catholic, this is a quote I heard in catechism and from other Catholic sources often. It is only in recent years that I have heard this being corrected, and Dr. Constantinou's explanations are helping me grapple with the amazing reality of God's love as a gift, not a transaction. Pax Christi and Happy Easter to all.
i will be buying this book, it a refreshing look at Jesus' passion... i think the Doctor is spot on. i have read so many 'jesus seminar' book authors whose interpretations i don't agree with
Dr Conatantinou is one of the Greek-iest women I've ever seen, the number of bushes that have been beaten around is equal to the number of scriptural examples of the Cross being a payment to quench God's Wrath. Absolute joy to listen to. (I am told Italians would relate, but as a Serb, I've mostly been exposed to Greeks)
The stupidity of the theology of Penal Substitution makes it so that anyone who was ever crucified is guaranteed salvation and paid the "debt" for their own sins
At 1:11:00, Dr. Constantinou addresses the question of Penal Substitutionary Atonement and answers saying “We don’t really see that kind of transactional idea [that sin is a debt] anywhere in the New Testament.” In light of that comment, I wonder what to make of this verse… “And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.” - Colossians 2:13-15
9:20 Lazarus Saturday was on April 9th in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church(East Syriac calendar). The reading was about Christ having dinner at his home/Martha's story. And the Friday prior to it - April 8th- the reading was about Lazarus being brought back to life. So this is in the liturgical calendar just before Holy Week. Infact on Lazarus Saturday we make special kind of rice dumpling (that's sweet) in reference to Christ's dinner with Lazarus's family.
Lazarus Saturday is this week, April 16, on Orthodox and most Oriental and Byzantine Catholic calendar’s. You know this I’m sure. We make small shaped bread that looks like Lazarus bound up. Don’t know when that custom began. After the Liturgy on Saturday, we have a pancake breakfast and everyone makes the palm crosses for Palm Sunday. Also, The Children’s choir practices for next week Holy Saturday morning when they sing, and the little girls that accompany Christ’s Tomb in procession (myrrhbearers) practice for Holy Friday evening! It’s a busy day! Have a glorious celebration of Christ’s Resurrection! Christo’s Anesti!☦️
Thank you Austin for conducting such a great interview with Dr. Jeannie to give a taste of her book. It is a cornucopia of well-documented information from historical, medical and legal as well as biblical sources that walks from the significance of the Raising of Lazarus who was expected to be already decomposing and, more importantly, whose soul was no longer around to be able to reoccupy his body according to the thinking of the times, through the Tearing of the Temple Veil and its importance. You were both respectful of other people's beliefs, while gently showing that some may be superficial, current culturally biased, based on later tradition or defensive. I was very pleased that Dr. Jeannie explained that the Greek word is not "justified" but "righteous." God's grace and incomprehensible love for His creation can only be known through loving and following Him. Only a theologian who is both well trained and spiritually growing can articulate all of the elements of the event as well as Dr. Jeannie has in The Crucifixion of the King of Glory.
Im so glad to have found this episode. She addresses so many questions I've had of which I could not find a sensible answer. I never understood the significance of Pilate, nor his intial rejection to find fault with Jesus. ❤🙏
The beard really suits you Austin. You are such a gentle soul, and the beard gives you a more masculine edge that helps to balance out that impression and give you a more rounded demeanour.
I love Dr. Jeannie’s work! So glad you had her on. She has a great podcast (also on UA-cam via Ancient Faith Radio channel) called Search the Scriptures that is absolutely amazing.
Austin, I thank you for this outstanding interview, that brings out so very many wonderful insights and relevancies from Dr Constantinou! What a well-spent hour! (Not to mention the times I am sure to reflect back on it as well.)
Great talk. Note her point about the tragedy of Bible scholars saying that it has non historical details where as historians seem to give the Bible more credit for being historically accurate. One more reason to trust the scriptures and the early church fathers more than modern scholarship, even if they do sometimes bring helpful teaching in some areas. It seems todays scholars, even the professing Christian ones are often more concerned with bringing forth a new idea in order to get people to read their books or papers, rather than following the tried and true understanding of texts from the historic church’s perspective.
By Jesus raising Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, the widow's son at Nain, and others, I'm sure that the Sadducees not only felt threatened, buy it probably insulted and embarrassed them; since they didn't even believe in a resurrection.
Loved this. I have found penal substitution / atonement instinctively off... I think I've also tended to over spiritualise the crucifixion - To hear the historic context is great. Something that has struck me strongly in prayer around the crucifixion is how Jesus in my understanding, lived through this in faith. I mean that he had faith in who he was, faith in his father and through this period of time, he wasn't consoled with nice feelings or supernatural visions etc and he knew his divinity in the same way as we know we are loved by God - we don't know it in the same way that we know we are sat on the chair beneath us. When I brought this up with the Dominicans, even referring to this as a possibility, Ie that is that Jesus was like us in this way, it caused some consternation/ shock. I keep getting the words 'man of faith, God of salvation' come to mind as a thesis. Are you aware of work in this field. Could you offer this in a programme? I ve ordered the book. Thanks to you both for your work and sharing it.
Luisa Piccarreta's Book of Heaven has Jesus explaining that He has no need of faith because He is God and is thus the Object of faith. It is only creatures who have to exercise faith as action in this world that brings the Divine Will of heaven into existence on earth,
Having come to understand the sense of faith as "pistis" is more like faithfulness, or being true to something/someone, one could certainly say that Jesus is a man of perfect faith, as his human will is perfectly aligned with the (his) divine will. Since sin occurs when we allow our will to deviate from God's will, what it means that Jesus never sinned is that those two wills were never out of alignment.
I can’t see how that would cause consternation to Dominicans. There’s nothing wrong with what you said. Jesus was faith-ful to God and what he went through so frightened him that he asked 3x to be delivered from it while sweating blood at the prospect. As God he would have not experienced fear or the need for faith, but his human nature was like ours in all things but sin.
"Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:17.
Austin, i just found your channel, because i saw you on The Council of Trent. I wish i could learn more about what Dr. Constantinao means when she mentions things that the Catholic Church has added from outside of apostolic tradition. I love your channel and have subscribed. Thank you for all you are doing!
This discussion really built momentum and ended on a strong note. I do know that certain Catholic Theologians agree with her Atonement conclusions...a particular book was republished and promoted by Scott Hahn. Though I'm sure medieval theology, especially as coming to a head with Martin Luther and John Calvin was the impetus for the current Protestant Debt Atonement paradigm.
So what specifically does the cross do for us? Why the need for the sacrifice of Jesus? Aren’t unbeliever’s condemned for their sin? How do we understand John 3:36 “…the wrath of God abideth on him.”?
I listened to one of Dr Jeannie's podcasts on this subject about the buying and selling of animals for temple sacrifice it was really good. I learnt more about how it set the chief priests up in a very high place with a lot of money, power and control that they did not want to forfeit at any cost.
Omg i like this woman , in all i have reseached what this lady talks about takes us further back to or before romans and the cheif priests the jews wow. Just the knowledge i need . Now the jigsaw puzzle is coming together. I have read about the jews but dnt want to be dissing them if it aint true .this woman tells the truth and this guy too very good points he makes both of them together working has a team i like you i appreciate you thankyou for sharing. Taking me back to Lasuruz havnt heard this name since i was a child . Please keep this up we all need this you both reduced me to tears it rings so true from what i read has a child and not knowing everything has slowly changed has i grew. Thankyou from the bottom of my heart. I have been begging for the truth. I wished i found you so much earlier you could of saved me so much heartache . The spiritual battle i was in thanks to you two has become lighter. Thankyou so much and in this time we need you please dont stop. Im sharing this all over 😍❤😇
On the penal substitution/atonement piece - I have some questions after using our trusty Catena Bible on Colossians 2:14: Chrysostom, 407 AD: "See to it that we do not again become debtors to the old contract. Christ came once; he found the certificate of our ancestral indebtedness which Adam wrote and signed. Adam contracted the debt; by our subsequent sins we increased the amount owed. In this contract are written a curse, and sin, and death and the condemnation of the law. Christ took all these away and pardoned them." Irenaeus, 202 AD: "Pointing out thus that remission of sins which follows upon His advent, by which "He has destroyed the handwriting "of our debt, and "fastened it to the cross; "" Ephrem the Syrian, 373 AD "At the birth of the Son the King was enrolling all men for the tribute money, that they might be debtors to him: the King came forth to us who blotted out our bills and wrote another bill in his own name that he might be our debtor." Ambrose AD 397 "And so he made a contract at a price for our debt, not for money for himself; he took away the debtor’s bond, set aside the moneylender, freed the debtor. He alone paid what was owed by all. We ourselves were not permitted to escape from bondage. " By early maybe she's meaning 1st century - but given how few apostolic writings we have compared to patristics, Irenaeus is pretty early so how could it be completely foreign that Christ paid our debt? I agree we do tend to minimize it as a transaction and should also look at it as the ULTIMATE act of love
Ι Have yet to get to the point of the video you refer to, but these excerpts that you quote do not refer to penal substiturtion. The reason being that Christ doesn't so much pay for the bill as destroying the contract thereby liberating the debtors. Now given that Christ is man as Adam was, and thus has in Himself the whole of Humanity, in a sense His death atones for our own, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Father demanded justice because He was offended, but rather that the fall caused by the lack of obedience of a man containing the whole, could only be undone by the obedience of a man containing the whole. Now here is the trick, the reason baptism and communion are instituded is exactly that. Adam's fall passed unto us because we share in his body and blood through biological inheritance. For Christ's work to work, we need to share in his body and blood the same way, and this happens through baptism and communion. These make us His brothers/sons (ultimately its the same), therefore making us participate to the body that worked for itself a way out of the cycle of death. This is also why the ressurection of Christ needs to take place, for we need to participate, not to the body that died, but to the body that by its unjust death destroyed the contract of death, so that we may feast on immortality.
@@kostpap3554 yeah by no means am i an expert on penal substitution - when you watch that part she was just dismissing entirely the legalistic notion that sin is a debt incurred against God, and that sin is purely to your point an illness due to our fallen nature. Personally i think it's both - by our nature we need a redeemer because we are fallen and cannot live up to God's standards, and because in our transgressions we have broken God's laws in our choices and actions that we make. I just expected to go to Catena bible and not see any "transaction" type language the way she made it seem, and it appears to me that in the Early church there was that notion
@@briand4622 If you noticed, sin is a debt in a sense, and it is also a breaking of the law. But there is a disctinction. First, sin is a debt to the devil, not to God. To quote from Wisdom of Solomon (st Paul loved quoting from there) "For God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, but by the devil's envy death entered the world, and those under his dominion are ruled by it." (2:23-24). Second, technically sin is a breaking of God's laws, but that's not why the fall happens. The fall happens because man was created with God as a prototype, so when man goes against God he goes against His own nature, and the breaking of the law only serves to show that. The very fall shows that, for the tree of knowledge was not a bad tree (according to the aforementioned fathers God would eventually give them to taste the fruit). Its not the act of eating the tree that causes the problem, but that they abuse their nature, which results in sin and death. Also, keep in mind, the fathers speak of debt, but not of transaction. In fact half of the quotes are almost identical to the theme of Christ tearing apart the contract. That's very serious a matter. Christ doen't accept the legality of the transaction, that's why He surrenders Himself to death. Being a son of Adam, the devil presents him the contract that claims His death for the sin of Adam as being a partaker of Adam's flesh. But Christ is sinless, obedient to God till death, so death cannot claim as separate from God the one who never was separated from God. So justice demands that Christ must rise from the dead, not because He is God, but because He is precisely a man that death cannot claim. Christ tears apart the contract of death by surrendering Himself to it, thereby undressing its unjustness. But because Christ is the new Adam, he contains in Himself the whole of humanity, therefore anyone participating in his flesh has likewise their contract torn apart. That's also why the devil cannot bear to see the cross, for by the very object he sought to remove a thorn from his side, he had his dominion robbed and his contracts rendered invalid. This is recounted in a prayer of Basil the great recited during the sixth hour "...and by His precious cross having torn the certificate of our sins apart and by [the very same precious cross] triumphing against the rulers and principalities and dominions of darkness..." The debt is not payed for, but annuled. That's hardly a transaction. I watched that part, she is more probably adressing what I was also reffering too. Not the concept of violating the commandments, but of this specific rendering.
Let’s not leave out this quote from St. Gregory the Theologian in his Second Paschal Oration: “Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To Whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and Highpriest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause? If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone altogether. But if to the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed; and next, On what principle did the Blood of His Only begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being offered by his Father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in the place of the human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things? So much we have said of Christ; the greater part of what we might say shall be reverenced with silence.” So, the early Church ultimately rejected the Ransom theory which said our debt was owed to the devil as well.
Shout out to the Lord of Spirits podcast… Aside from Daniel, “Son of Man” is also a very prominent title of the Messiah in the Book of Enoch, which the Apostles Sts Peter and Jude quote in the NT. The Enochian tradition was very well known in the Second Temple Judaism of that time.
The one that sticks out to me also is how it's used in Ezekiel, which is a haunting book for many reasons, but ultimately shows how much God is willing to do for us.
“These things the Saviour endured, and made peace through the Blood of His Cross, for things in heaven, and things in earth. For we were enemies of God through sin, and God had appointed the sinner to die. There must needs therefore have happened one of two things; either that God, in His truth, should destroy all men, or that in His loving-kindness He should cancel the sentence. But behold the wisdom of God; He preserved both the truth of His sentence, and the exercise of His loving-kindness. Christ took our sins in His body on the tree” - St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catachetical Lecture XIII “Listen to the reason for his coming and glorify the power of the one who became flesh. The human race was deep in debt and incapable of paying what it owed. By the hand of Adam we all signed a bond to sin. The devil held us all in slavery. He kept producing our bills, using our suffering body as his paper. There he stood, the wicked forger, threatening us with our debts and demanding satisfaction. One of two things had to happen: either the penalty of death had to be imposed on all, because ‘all had sinned,’ or else a substitute had to be provided who was fully entitled to plead on our behalf. No man could save us; the debt would have been his liability too. No angel could buy us out, for such a ransom was beyond his powers. One who was sinless had to die for those who had sinned; that was the only way left by which to break the bonds of evil.” (1st Homily on the God-bearer; citation from Proclus of Constantinople and the Cult of the Virgin in Late Antiquity (Leiden: Brill, 2003), p. 141) See more: erickybarra.wordpress.com/2019/02/14/penal-substitution-in-the-church-fathers/
Except she’s not just an academic. She is married to a priest, chants in church and has a weekly podcast called Search the Scriptures where she goes line by line explaining the Bible. I’ve read her book and there are things in there that I guarantee would blow your mind, like the fact that the lambs for Passover were placed into an oven upright pierced with two wooden skewers horizontally and vertically, just like Christ was crucified. Plus much more.
40:00 Dr. Constantinou says the early church never calls Christ “Son of Man.” I get her larger point, but iirc: the Council of Ephesus (following St Cyril) calls Christ something like “Son of God who for our sake became Son of Man.” Am I misremembering?
My priest told us to imagine death is like machine that the souls would fall into before Christ came. Every death ended with the souls separated from God, some in the place of the righteous, some in torment. When Christ came, the machine of death took His soul, but it did not encounter a body like usual, it encountered God Himself, so it was like throwing a diamond in the machine. He broke the machine of death! That's why the icons show the gates of hades broken open with the padlocks scattered on the ground, death is defeated, and Christ is pulling Adam and Eve out and bringing them to paradise. As I understand it, it's the work of Holy Saturday that defeated death, and the grave could not contain God and He rose on Sunday, proving from that point onward Christians are not truly dead, but just temporarily separated from their bodies. On another topic, my kids and I read some of the lives of Plutarch and a repeated refrain was that it was better to die than be shamed. One story was about a defeated king being marched through the streets in a parade of the spoils of war, and the consensus was that the defeated king was worthy of scorn because he didn't take his own life, but surrendered. It kind of reminds me of Christ being paraded through the streets carrying His Cross. He truly changed how the Christian world (and even secular world) thinks to such a degree, that we can't comprehend what it was like before. Why do we think of self-sacrifice as the supreme good? It's because of Christ.
Yep! Most folks miss 1 Peter 3:17- 4:6. as they only see Jesus as a sacrifice to die in place of us... "For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [p]for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ... but they will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been [e]preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as people, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. " What so many people miss when they say "He descended into Hades..." on Good Friday, is that Jesus wasn't merely there to be punished in place of us, but was also on a rescue mission, so that even those long buried would have a chance to hear the Holy Gospel, to be evangelized, so that the New Adam may reach the Old Adam! WHo is this King of Glory?!
Colossians 2:13-15 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him. This verse speaks of debt paid right?
Back in the 1970s when I was working on my B.S., in religion I was rebuked for saying that the phrase, "Son of Man" that Jesus used was a mention of the book of Daniel's prophecy. The professor said no it refers to the humanity of Christ. This professor was a conservative, yet lacked knowledge of his O.T. I was in my late 20s back then, but spent hours studying the O.T. before even going to college. Unlike many Christians I read much in the O.T. Now I am 73 and felt out of place like I don't fit in the evangelical movement because I see so many things that are lacking. I didn't know that there were people in other communions that believe like I do.
The 'Son of Man' title is also the title God often uses with the prophets. So, it could also be said up until the trial, they were seeing him refer to himself as a prophet.
The Cross, then, that Christ bore, was not for His own deserts, but was the cross that awaited us, and was our due, through our condemnation by the Law…He took upon Himself the Cross that was our due, passing on Himself the condemnation of the Law, that the mouth of all lawlessness might henceforth be stopped, according to the saying of the Psalmist; the Sinless having suffered condemnation for the sin of all (John 19:16-18). Cyril of Alexandria, 'Book XII Commentary on John' For that which we owed to us according to our crimes bear it, so He suffered for us, having made peace [with God] through the blood of His cross… St Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah' “A sacrifice was needed to reconcile the Father on High with us and to sanctify us, since we had been soiled by fellowship with the evil one. There had to be a sacrifice which both cleansed and was clean, and a purified, sinless priest… It was clearly necessary for Christ to descend to Hades, but all these things were done with justice, without which God does not act.” Homily 16, 1, 2, 21 St Gregory Palamas ‘The Lord had to taste death for each, and having become a propitiatory sacrifice for the world, justify all by His blood’ St Basil, ' Letter to Bishop Optimus' God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. Romans 3.25 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53.5-6 There are many contemporary Orthodox writers who wish to deny or downplay a number of concepts that relate to our redemption. They will argue we don't believe Christ had to die in our place, or that His blood needed to be shed to pay the penalty for our sins. They will deny the legitimacy of legal terms, in favor of the idea that the Church is a spiritual hospital. The problem is not that the Church is not a spiritual hospital, but rather that in emphasizing one set of images used to explain our salvation, they deny a whole set of equally valid images that are clearly Biblical. It is true that in the west there was an over emphasis on legal imagery, but the solution to such an imbalance is not a new imbalance in the opposite direction. We can and should speak of sin as an illness, but when we die, we do not go before the final medical exam -- we face the final judgment, which is a legal image if ever there was one. And so we can also speak of sin as a transgression of the Law of God, and of our need to be justified by God, even as we speak of sin in terms of an illness that we need to be healed of. Fr John Whiteford, 'Do Orthodox Christians Believe in the Atonement?'
Dr. Eugenia Constantinou is simply wrong on the issue of penal substitution. It's not surprising taking into account her background, but one just cannot empty the cross of the penal aspect. That's why so many early Eastern authors wrote about Christ taking the penalty for the broken Law, taking Father's wrath that should be directed on us. Just one example. Athanasius of Alexandria commenting on Psalm 22 writes: "Thou has made Thy wrath to rest upon me, says the one; and the other adds, I paid them things I never took. For He did not die as being Himself liable to death: He suffered for us, and bore in Himself the wrath that was the penalty of our transgression, even as Isaiah says, Himself bore our weaknesses." (Ἐπʼ ἐμὲ ἐπεστηρίχθη ὁ θυμός σου· ἐν δὲ τῷ ἑξηκοστῷ ὀγδόῳ· Ἃ οὐχ ἥρπασα, τότε ἀπετίννυον. Οὐ γὰρ ὑπεύθυνος ὢν ἀπέθνησκεν, ἀλλʼ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἔπασχε, καὶ τὸν καθʼ ἡμῶν θυμὸν διὰ τὴν παράβασιν ἐφʼ ἑαυτὸν ἐβάσταζε, λέγοντα διὰ τοῦ Ἡσαΐου· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβε. "Epistola ad Marcellinum de interpretatione Psalmorum" 7, Migne PG 27:16-17).
Gods wrath in this context is death, specifically death on a tree as a sign of cursedness. Jesus didn’t suffer the worlds worst, most painful, most horrifying death although it was painful and horrifying. The wrath He experienced was the experience of death, not on His own account but paying humanities debt to death (not paying off the Father, or Satan God forbid). The issue with PSA is that it takes Jesus experiencing Gods wrath in this sense, and then describes the cross primarily as Jesus getting tortured by his Father. The cross is more scripturally defined as the Father giving us His Son and the Son willingly offering himself to God on our behalf.
@@damiandziedzic23 Unfortunately in many cases it’s not. Most Reformed people, especially Reformed Baptists more influenced by the American Protestantism, reduce the cross to God killing Jesus as a stand in for the elect.
The Brooklyn rabbi whose followers believed he was the Messiah was Menachem Schneerson..I remember that period. His followers hung around his burial site for days afterward as I recall.
I’m always so confused why the Orthodox do the “either or” thing and not both/and. It’s not Christus Victor instead of penal substitution, or recapitulation over legal satisfaction. Scripture definitely uses both kinds of language
I don’t think there is an either or. It’s when the context is “God killed Jesus” or God required Jesus to die in order to change his mind about you, where things get dicey. God doesn’t change this includes His mind. Also Jesus is God and God doesn’t kill God. There is a penal substitution even in orthodoxy from what I can see. The the substitution is Christ who underwent the punishment as our substitute. That punishment was death which we brought into the world through sin. God is the only life, He alone is the only source of it. When Adam and Eve left the life death entered. Christ warned them in the garden. Death passed to all men and God in his love for mankind took that punishment, death, in our place to defeat it so we don’t have to fear death our Creator has made a way for us. Christ died that he might bring us to the Father according to the scripture. He emptied the tombs and all men will now be resurrected, some to eternal life and some to torments.
I agree with you, Anglican Aesthetics! I am Catholic, and this kind of talk that Christ did not “pay” for our sins is very foreign to me. Scripture is FULL of references to Our Lord Jesus paying the price for us. Our Lord Himself said at the Last Supper that His blood was going to be poured out for the forgiveness of sin. It is not “God killing Jesus.” It is God sacrificing Himself.
There’s no dispute Scripture uses the language of ransom, sacrifice, substitution, and punishment. The question is what is meant by this? By the time Calvin was formulating his PSA theory of the Atonement, he was already centuries and several philosophical movements removed from the context of the biblical images and language and their interpretation in the early Church Fathers. Calvin was a lawyer, not a theologian, Saint or even a patristic scholar. It matters.
@@lornadoone8887 Calvin wasn’t at all removed from the Fathers. The language of Christ paying the debt of punishment himself through his death is in Athanasius’ On the Incarnation. Anselm and Aquinas’ satisfaction theory is very, very close to PSA as well. And also, while Calvin’s training was in law, it was more precisely in the humanities. He knew Greek and Hebrew like the back of his hand; it’s a huge stretch to say he wasn’t a theologian when all the Westminster divines considered him one of the best of the Reformed
My friend, she is right about the problems with substitutional atonement. It is from the medieval text, Cur Deus Homo, by St Anselm. However, it was never the primary understanding of the cross in Catholicism. It was favored among descents of the English Reformation because Anselm was from Canterbury. The motivation to favor Anselm was nationalist not theological. Please interview a theologian from Franciscan University like John Bergsma to learn about Catholic approaches to scripture and Covenantal theology of the Eucharist and the cross. It will be mindblowing and absolutely transformative. And only Catholics are deep in the scriptures in this way.
Isaac, was thought to be about 30 and willingly carried the wood on which he was to be sacrificed. The Rabbis were on to something, but did not follow all the Way.
I’ve never heard of this woman before, but I think I’ve just found a new favourite christian scholar.
Dr Jeannie is brilliant. I’ve learned so much by listening to her podcasts Search the Scriptures.
She's really good
She's written a great book on the Orthodox mindset
I've just been introduced to her this year myself. She is a pre-eminent scholar
@@mary-jodukas7627 Phronima 🙂
I've been praying for about six months: "Lord, by Thy Grace, bring me closer unto Your Love" and when listening to this conversation I've been overcome with: Here it is...my Cross.
God bless you both!
Sincerely,
An Orthodox homeschooling mother of 4
Thanks Austin, I love Dr. Constantinou. Strong woman with a deep love for her podcast listeners and book readers. She reminds me of my Aunt, who was a college professor. She was a tough, smart women who would set you straight in a heartbeat, but always with deep motherly love. That's Dr. Jeanie, for sure!
Dr. Constantinou is brilliant.
I am lucky enough to have one of Dr Genie's students right here in my diocese. She is absolutely amazing and I highly recommend her Search the Scriptures Bible study podcast.
I just started listening to her podcast. I'm 4 episodes in. I plan on listening to the entire podcast.
Yeah search the scriptures live and the original search the scriptures.
“He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, by his wounds we are healed. We all like sheep have gone astray, and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:5&6. Jesus laid down his life, no one took it from him. His love for us compelled him. Praise His holy name!
Wow! I have been a part of the Christian church all my long life. I was brought up by nuns, educated by them and by priests, studied Divinity for three years and went on to teach and read many, many books. I was raised a Catholic and became an Evangelical and read the Bible every day and attend Bible Study groups. I have listened to numerous sermons but now I can say, I have been waiting for this. Thank you Lord for bringing this to my attention. My search for truth has been continuous and I feel a wonderful peace, at last, at the opening of this new door, leading to further exploration of the most important topic in all of life, so beautifully explained by Eugenia Constantinou. Amen.
Welcome to Orthodoxy and what an excellent introduction you've had by Dr Eugenia Constantinou. There are many more theologians and people of God since the first years of Christianity until this day that speak about the old and new testament and do so with the help of the Holy Spirit and that is what any soul stops and listens to. Not human logic and countless of fruitless analyses of 'Bible Study groups'. You need God to understand God and that is what Orthodoxy is about. The original, authentic and unblemished faith in the Holy Trinity. The more you delve into this the more wonders you will uncover. God bless you sister.
Thinking Orthodox is my favorite Christian book, not just Orthodox Faith book, ever.And, her podcasts on Ancient Faith Radio have been extremely educational. She's not just for Orthodox Christians.
Greek - Orthodox Christian here. Christianity is not only for the "faithful" Christians is for all of humanity.
Austin, I have to say this is one of the most fascinating discussions you've ever had on your channel, which is saying a whole lot considering how interesting the discussions on your channel are!! Thank you SO much for doing these discussions and bringing us along on the journey of continuing to explore/examine the Christian faith.
Dr. Eugenia is an absolute treasure who deserves far more respect in the realm of theological discourse in this country (and beyond).
ST. (Fill in name) would be more profitable. There are only 3 theologians in the Orthodox Church and she ain't one.
@@WishingForRain what a strange comment. Welcome to the internet.
Thank you for this video, being a Christian Orthodoxy I very rarely hear Orthodox priest talking about Crucifixion of Christ as payment for our sins! In orthodox Christianity we hear often about the love of God and Christ for us, so thank Dr Constantinou for mentioning the Catholic /Protestant concept that diminishes the high values of Christ message , that all He did was Out of Love ❤️ for Us.
Thank you for hosting Teacher Eugenia. She has been such an instrumental vessel in my growth and understanding. May God bless you both for this illuminating discussion.
Dr. Eugenia, just outstanding! And Austin, as usual another outstanding interview/discussion conducted by you!
All Glory to God for Dr. Constantinou truly she’s a wonderful treasure in the Orthodox Christian community. Not only is she worldly valued because of her knowledge but most importantly spiritually value as a presbytera ( Priest wife) something that was not mention as her credentials. She has so many talks and lecture that are greatly edifying to ones spiritual walk and understanding of the Orthodox Christian Faith and mindset. ☦️💕
Not one minute was waisted ! Thank you for this encouraging video!
Dr Eugenia - your such an inspiration to me! Your passion and knowledge is amazing. I love studying 2nd temple Judaism but never thought to study the Roman thought during That time also. Thank you!
So glad that Dr Constantinou passionately spoke on the Love of God as the explanation of the cross and not what we hear spread today that its simply to pay our sin debt.
Even Christians who believe they have a sin debt from each mistake oscillate between righteous and sinner constantly. What a watery gospel it is now.
Thank God for the Grace revolution 🔥
This woman is brilliant, powerful speaker and well informed
Thank you, UA-cam algorithm, for suggesting Gospel Simplicity to me. Every video I watch I’m more and more and more fascinated, I learn so much, and intellectually as well as spiritually invigorated. Keep doing what you do, Austin! This channel is a gift!
Started listening to her book 'Thinking Orthodox' last week, it's excellent, highly recommend.
I can't thank you enough Austin for this awesome interview. I enjoyed it so much and was left was more so ordered the book right away. It arrived today so I'll be starting to read it after posting this comment! Thanks again and God bless you. As a Catholic I love the dialouges you have and your quest for Christian unity. I wish you and your wife a healthy and blessed marriage. God bless and please get Dr. Constantinou on again.
this is a great meditation for Holy week
I loved listening to this entire video, thank you for sharing. Blessings to my former professor! IC XC NIKA ☦️
Thank you so much for this incredible presentation and for the great book recommendation. I think it is very important to respond in charity to the Protestant claim of penal substitution because it does stem from the Catholic Church's great mind, St. Anselm who said ""Jesus paid a debt he didn't owe because we owed a debt we couldn't pay" In fact, growing up Catholic, this is a quote I heard in catechism and from other Catholic sources often. It is only in recent years that I have heard this being corrected, and Dr. Constantinou's explanations are helping me grapple with the amazing reality of God's love as a gift, not a transaction. Pax Christi and Happy Easter to all.
She is a brilliant writer. Amazing interview.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great podcast. I came across this by accident and I'm impressed.
i will be buying this book, it a refreshing look at Jesus' passion... i think the Doctor is spot on. i have read so many 'jesus seminar' book authors whose interpretations i don't agree with
Dr Conatantinou is one of the Greek-iest women I've ever seen, the number of bushes that have been beaten around is equal to the number of scriptural examples of the Cross being a payment to quench God's Wrath.
Absolute joy to listen to.
(I am told Italians would relate, but as a Serb, I've mostly been exposed to Greeks)
The stupidity of the theology of Penal Substitution makes it so that anyone who was ever crucified is guaranteed salvation and paid the "debt" for their own sins
@@liquidoxygen819 Well except that Jesus being sinless is supposed to give His sacrifice infinite weight to pay for our sins.
@@colmwhateveryoulike3240 More like Him being God. ;)
@@LadyMaria Yes more so I suppose, thanks. :)
At 1:11:00, Dr. Constantinou addresses the question of Penal Substitutionary Atonement and answers saying “We don’t really see that kind of transactional idea [that sin is a debt] anywhere in the New Testament.”
In light of that comment, I wonder what to make of this verse…
“And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.” - Colossians 2:13-15
That's the exact verse that came to mind for me.
This was wonderful, and I want to listen to it again.
Another incredible interview. Thanks Austin.
Amazing ❤❤❤ Glory to God!!❤❤❤
Fascinating stuff. Thank you so much, both of you, for this discussion. God bless you and thank you.
I like this study very much. Not Orthodox Christian but like a lot of what I hear.
9:20 Lazarus Saturday was on April 9th in the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church(East Syriac calendar). The reading was about Christ having dinner at his home/Martha's story. And the Friday prior to it - April 8th- the reading was about Lazarus being brought back to life. So this is in the liturgical calendar just before Holy Week. Infact on Lazarus Saturday we make special kind of rice dumpling (that's sweet) in reference to Christ's dinner with Lazarus's family.
Lazarus Saturday is this week, April 16, on Orthodox and most Oriental and Byzantine Catholic calendar’s. You know this I’m sure.
We make small shaped bread that looks like Lazarus bound up. Don’t know when that custom began.
After the Liturgy on Saturday, we have a pancake breakfast and everyone makes the palm crosses for Palm Sunday. Also, The Children’s choir practices for next week Holy Saturday morning when they sing, and the little girls that accompany Christ’s Tomb in procession (myrrhbearers) practice for Holy Friday evening! It’s a busy day!
Have a glorious celebration of Christ’s Resurrection! Christo’s Anesti!☦️
Well done! I love the last segment about the “true meaning of the cross”
Great discussion. Helped me understand so much more of the Cross. Thank you.
Interesting and edifying discussion. Love from Ethiopian orthodox church.
I just adore listening to this woman speak her knowledge.
Thank you Austin for conducting such a great interview with Dr. Jeannie to give a taste of her book. It is a cornucopia of well-documented information from historical, medical and legal as well as biblical sources that walks from the significance of the Raising of Lazarus who was expected to be already decomposing and, more importantly, whose soul was no longer around to be able to reoccupy his body according to the thinking of the times, through the Tearing of the Temple Veil and its importance.
You were both respectful of other people's beliefs, while gently showing that some may be superficial, current culturally biased, based on later tradition or defensive. I was very pleased that Dr. Jeannie explained that the Greek word is not "justified" but "righteous." God's grace and incomprehensible love for His creation can only be known through loving and following Him. Only a theologian who is both well trained and spiritually growing can articulate all of the elements of the event as well as Dr. Jeannie has in The Crucifixion of the King of Glory.
Im so glad to have found this episode. She addresses so many questions I've had of which I could not find a sensible answer. I never understood the significance of Pilate, nor his intial rejection to find fault with Jesus. ❤🙏
I love Dr Genie's audio-books and podcast, thanks Austin for another great interview.
Christ is Risen! ☦️☦️☦️
The beard really suits you Austin. You are such a gentle soul, and the beard gives you a more masculine edge that helps to balance out that impression and give you a more rounded demeanour.
It's on AUDIBOOK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't thank you enough. I am up to my eyeballs in book I'll never get finished.
I love Dr. Jeannie’s work! So glad you had her on. She has a great podcast (also on UA-cam via Ancient Faith Radio channel) called Search the Scriptures that is absolutely amazing.
I love hearing fresh perspectives. Great content!
Great interview!
Thanks!
Thank you for this wonderful conversation!!
Austin, I thank you for this outstanding interview, that brings out so very many wonderful insights and relevancies from Dr Constantinou! What a well-spent hour! (Not to mention the times I am sure to reflect back on it as well.)
I enjoyed and love this episode!! God bless you! ❤️
I personally think that the cross has not just one meaning but there are many aspects that culminate there.
Thank you for this interview beautiful painful during holy week
Great talk. Note her point about the tragedy of Bible scholars saying that it has non historical details where as historians seem to give the Bible more credit for being historically accurate. One more reason to trust the scriptures and the early church fathers more than modern scholarship, even if they do sometimes bring helpful teaching in some areas. It seems todays scholars, even the professing Christian ones are often more concerned with bringing forth a new idea in order to get people to read their books or papers, rather than following the tried and true understanding of texts from the historic church’s perspective.
Looking forward to this
Ordered the book while listening.
absolutely beautiful final quote from her last chapter. 1:09:30 - ordered her book just for that.
By Jesus raising Lazarus, Jairus' daughter, the widow's son at Nain, and others, I'm sure that the Sadducees not only felt threatened, buy it probably insulted and embarrassed them; since they didn't even believe in a resurrection.
Loved this. I have found penal substitution / atonement instinctively off... I think I've also tended to over spiritualise the crucifixion - To hear the historic context is great. Something that has struck me strongly in prayer around the crucifixion is how Jesus in my understanding, lived through this in faith. I mean that he had faith in who he was, faith in his father and through this period of time, he wasn't consoled with nice feelings or supernatural visions etc and he knew his divinity in the same way as we know we are loved by God - we don't know it in the same way that we know we are sat on the chair beneath us. When I brought this up with the Dominicans, even referring to this as a possibility, Ie that is that Jesus was like us in this way, it caused some consternation/ shock. I keep getting the words 'man of faith, God of salvation' come to mind as a thesis. Are you aware of work in this field. Could you offer this in a programme? I ve ordered the book. Thanks to you both for your work and sharing it.
Super interesting idea. Thanks for sharing.
Luisa Piccarreta's Book of Heaven has Jesus explaining that He has no need of faith because He is God and is thus the Object of faith. It is only creatures who have to exercise faith as action in this world that brings the Divine Will of heaven into existence on earth,
Having come to understand the sense of faith as "pistis" is more like faithfulness, or being true to something/someone, one could certainly say that Jesus is a man of perfect faith, as his human will is perfectly aligned with the (his) divine will. Since sin occurs when we allow our will to deviate from God's will, what it means that Jesus never sinned is that those two wills were never out of alignment.
I can’t see how that would cause consternation to Dominicans. There’s nothing wrong with what you said. Jesus was faith-ful to God and what he went through so frightened him that he asked 3x to be delivered from it while sweating blood at the prospect. As God he would have not experienced fear or the need for faith, but his human nature was like ours in all things but sin.
@@brianamend6983 Read Luisa's Book Of Heaven. It is fascinating and totally Catholic.
Magnífica y nueva información para mí como converso ortodoxo
Tienes razón!
Reading her book for Great Lent…. I’ll have to watch this interview
"Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:17.
He was the priest and the sacrifice in one body.
A great interview!
Austin, i just found your channel, because i saw you on The Council of Trent. I wish i could learn more about what Dr. Constantinao means when she mentions things that the Catholic Church has added from outside of apostolic tradition. I love your channel and have subscribed. Thank you for all you are doing!
It's my pleasure! Thanks for subscribing!
This discussion really built momentum and ended on a strong note. I do know that certain Catholic Theologians agree with her Atonement conclusions...a particular book was republished and promoted by Scott Hahn.
Though I'm sure medieval theology, especially as coming to a head with Martin Luther and John Calvin was the impetus for the current Protestant Debt Atonement paradigm.
Interesting ,while watching your teaching about Jesus rebuking the chief priests and thinking about the parallels in the Modern Church.
So what specifically does the cross do for us? Why the need for the sacrifice of Jesus? Aren’t unbeliever’s condemned for their sin? How do we understand John 3:36 “…the wrath of God abideth on him.”?
Doc EC is back?! Wheeeee!!!!
I have always wondered what Issac was thinking and what God was doing there with his instructions to Abraham.
Stoked!
I listened to one of Dr Jeannie's podcasts on this subject about the buying and selling of animals for temple sacrifice it was really good. I learnt more about how it set the chief priests up in a very high place with a lot of money, power and control that they did not want to forfeit at any cost.
Omg i like this woman , in all i have reseached what this lady talks about takes us further back to or before romans and the cheif priests the jews wow. Just the knowledge i need . Now the jigsaw puzzle is coming together. I have read about the jews but dnt want to be dissing them if it aint true .this woman tells the truth and this guy too very good points he makes both of them together working has a team i like you i appreciate you thankyou for sharing. Taking me back to Lasuruz havnt heard this name since i was a child . Please keep this up we all need this you both reduced me to tears it rings so true from what i read has a child and not knowing everything has slowly changed has i grew. Thankyou from the bottom of my heart. I have been begging for the truth. I wished i found you so much earlier you could of saved me so much heartache . The spiritual battle i was in thanks to you two has become lighter. Thankyou so much and in this time we need you please dont stop. Im sharing this all over 😍❤😇
Thank you both.
Wonderful! I thought I understood the crucifixion. Hardly.
Fantastic video really gets to the point
Brilliant interview!!! I cannot wait to read Dr. C’s book after this lovely peek into what she has covered in it. God bless you both!!
On the penal substitution/atonement piece - I have some questions after using our trusty Catena Bible on Colossians 2:14:
Chrysostom, 407 AD: "See to it that we do not again become debtors to the old contract. Christ came once; he found the certificate of our ancestral indebtedness which Adam wrote and signed. Adam contracted the debt; by our subsequent sins we increased the amount owed. In this contract are written a curse, and sin, and death and the condemnation of the law. Christ took all these away and pardoned them."
Irenaeus, 202 AD: "Pointing out thus that remission of sins which follows upon His advent, by which "He has destroyed the handwriting "of our debt, and "fastened it to the cross; ""
Ephrem the Syrian, 373 AD "At the birth of the Son the King was enrolling all men for the tribute money, that they might be debtors to him: the King came forth to us who blotted out our bills and wrote another bill in his own name that he might be our debtor."
Ambrose AD 397 "And so he made a contract at a price for our debt, not for money for himself; he took away the debtor’s bond, set aside the moneylender, freed the debtor. He alone paid what was owed by all. We ourselves were not permitted to escape from bondage. "
By early maybe she's meaning 1st century - but given how few apostolic writings we have compared to patristics, Irenaeus is pretty early so how could it be completely foreign that Christ paid our debt? I agree we do tend to minimize it as a transaction and should also look at it as the ULTIMATE act of love
Gotta love Catena Bible
Ι Have yet to get to the point of the video you refer to, but these excerpts that you quote do not refer to penal substiturtion. The reason being that Christ doesn't so much pay for the bill as destroying the contract thereby liberating the debtors. Now given that Christ is man as Adam was, and thus has in Himself the whole of Humanity, in a sense His death atones for our own, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Father demanded justice because He was offended, but rather that the fall caused by the lack of obedience of a man containing the whole, could only be undone by the obedience of a man containing the whole. Now here is the trick, the reason baptism and communion are instituded is exactly that. Adam's fall passed unto us because we share in his body and blood through biological inheritance. For Christ's work to work, we need to share in his body and blood the same way, and this happens through baptism and communion. These make us His brothers/sons (ultimately its the same), therefore making us participate to the body that worked for itself a way out of the cycle of death. This is also why the ressurection of Christ needs to take place, for we need to participate, not to the body that died, but to the body that by its unjust death destroyed the contract of death, so that we may feast on immortality.
@@kostpap3554 yeah by no means am i an expert on penal substitution - when you watch that part she was just dismissing entirely the legalistic notion that sin is a debt incurred against God, and that sin is purely to your point an illness due to our fallen nature. Personally i think it's both - by our nature we need a redeemer because we are fallen and cannot live up to God's standards, and because in our transgressions we have broken God's laws in our choices and actions that we make. I just expected to go to Catena bible and not see any "transaction" type language the way she made it seem, and it appears to me that in the Early church there was that notion
@@briand4622 If you noticed, sin is a debt in a sense, and it is also a breaking of the law. But there is a disctinction. First, sin is a debt to the devil, not to God. To quote from Wisdom of Solomon (st Paul loved quoting from there) "For God created man for incorruption, and made him in the image of his own eternity, but by the devil's envy death entered the world, and those under his dominion are ruled by it." (2:23-24). Second, technically sin is a breaking of God's laws, but that's not why the fall happens. The fall happens because man was created with God as a prototype, so when man goes against God he goes against His own nature, and the breaking of the law only serves to show that. The very fall shows that, for the tree of knowledge was not a bad tree (according to the aforementioned fathers God would eventually give them to taste the fruit). Its not the act of eating the tree that causes the problem, but that they abuse their nature, which results in sin and death. Also, keep in mind, the fathers speak of debt, but not of transaction. In fact half of the quotes are almost identical to the theme of Christ tearing apart the contract. That's very serious a matter. Christ doen't accept the legality of the transaction, that's why He surrenders Himself to death. Being a son of Adam, the devil presents him the contract that claims His death for the sin of Adam as being a partaker of Adam's flesh. But Christ is sinless, obedient to God till death, so death cannot claim as separate from God the one who never was separated from God. So justice demands that Christ must rise from the dead, not because He is God, but because He is precisely a man that death cannot claim. Christ tears apart the contract of death by surrendering Himself to it, thereby undressing its unjustness. But because Christ is the new Adam, he contains in Himself the whole of humanity, therefore anyone participating in his flesh has likewise their contract torn apart. That's also why the devil cannot bear to see the cross, for by the very object he sought to remove a thorn from his side, he had his dominion robbed and his contracts rendered invalid. This is recounted in a prayer of Basil the great recited during the sixth hour "...and by His precious cross having torn the certificate of our sins apart and by [the very same precious cross] triumphing against the rulers and principalities and dominions of darkness..." The debt is not payed for, but annuled. That's hardly a transaction. I watched that part, she is more probably adressing what I was also reffering too. Not the concept of violating the commandments, but of this specific rendering.
Let’s not leave out this quote from St. Gregory the Theologian in his Second Paschal Oration:
“Now we are to examine another fact and dogma, neglected by most people, but in my judgment well worth enquiring into. To Whom was that Blood offered that was shed for us, and why was it shed? I mean the precious and famous Blood of our God and Highpriest and Sacrifice. We were detained in bondage by the Evil One, sold under sin, and receiving pleasure in exchange for wickedness. Now, since a ransom belongs only to him who holds in bondage, I ask to whom was this offered, and for what cause? If to the Evil One, fie upon the outrage! If the robber receives ransom, not only from God, but a ransom which consists of God Himself, and has such an illustrious payment for his tyranny, a payment for whose sake it would have been right for him to have left us alone altogether. But if to the Father, I ask first, how? For it was not by Him that we were being oppressed; and next, On what principle did the Blood of His Only begotten Son delight the Father, Who would not receive even Isaac, when he was being offered by his Father, but changed the sacrifice, putting a ram in the place of the human victim? Is it not evident that the Father accepts Him, but neither asked for Him nor demanded Him; but on account of the Incarnation, and because Humanity must be sanctified by the Humanity of God, that He might deliver us Himself, and overcome the tyrant, and draw us to Himself by the mediation of His Son, Who also arranged this to the honour of the Father, Whom it is manifest that He obeys in all things? So much we have said of Christ; the greater part of what we might say shall be reverenced with silence.”
So, the early Church ultimately rejected the Ransom theory which said our debt was owed to the devil as well.
Shout out to the Lord of Spirits podcast…
Aside from Daniel, “Son of Man” is also a very prominent title of the Messiah in the Book of Enoch, which the Apostles Sts Peter and Jude quote in the NT. The Enochian tradition was very well known in the Second Temple Judaism of that time.
The one that sticks out to me also is how it's used in Ezekiel, which is a haunting book for many reasons, but ultimately shows how much God is willing to do for us.
Dr. Eugenia is amazing!
“These things the Saviour endured, and made peace through the Blood of His Cross, for things in heaven, and things in earth. For we were enemies of God through sin, and God had appointed the sinner to die. There must needs therefore have happened one of two things; either that God, in His truth, should destroy all men, or that in His loving-kindness He should cancel the sentence. But behold the wisdom of God; He preserved both the truth of His sentence, and the exercise of His loving-kindness. Christ took our sins in His body on the tree” - St Cyril of Jerusalem, Catachetical Lecture XIII
“Listen to the reason for his coming and glorify the power of the one who became flesh. The human race was deep in debt and incapable of paying what it owed. By the hand of Adam we all signed a bond to sin. The devil held us all in slavery. He kept producing our bills, using our suffering body as his paper. There he stood, the wicked forger, threatening us with our debts and demanding satisfaction. One of two things had to happen: either the penalty of death had to be imposed on all, because ‘all had sinned,’ or else a substitute had to be provided who was fully entitled to plead on our behalf. No man could save us; the debt would have been his liability too. No angel could buy us out, for such a ransom was beyond his powers. One who was sinless had to die for those who had sinned; that was the only way left by which to break the bonds of evil.”
(1st Homily on the God-bearer; citation from Proclus of Constantinople and the Cult of the Virgin in Late Antiquity (Leiden: Brill, 2003), p. 141)
See more: erickybarra.wordpress.com/2019/02/14/penal-substitution-in-the-church-fathers/
Thank you. The debt angle never made sense to me.
Defo will be watching more of your videos thankyou so much 😍😇😂
She seems full of herself. The reason i wrote my book is because i know ALL these things that no one else does. This is the problem with academics
Her thesis confronts the academy
@Anomie thats nit-picking or demanding perfection either way it negates goodness which works 🙂👍
Except she’s not just an academic. She is married to a priest, chants in church and has a weekly podcast called Search the Scriptures where she goes line by line explaining the Bible. I’ve read her book and there are things in there that I guarantee would blow your mind, like the fact that the lambs for Passover were placed into an oven upright pierced with two wooden skewers horizontally and vertically, just like Christ was crucified. Plus much more.
40:00 Dr. Constantinou says the early church never calls Christ “Son of Man.” I get her larger point, but iirc: the Council of Ephesus (following St Cyril) calls Christ something like “Son of God who for our sake became Son of Man.” Am I misremembering?
Please pray for me everyone that reads this I need the intercession of Gods Children thank you for considering
What is your name?
My priest told us to imagine death is like machine that the souls would fall into before Christ came. Every death ended with the souls separated from God, some in the place of the righteous, some in torment. When Christ came, the machine of death took His soul, but it did not encounter a body like usual, it encountered God Himself, so it was like throwing a diamond in the machine. He broke the machine of death! That's why the icons show the gates of hades broken open with the padlocks scattered on the ground, death is defeated, and Christ is pulling Adam and Eve out and bringing them to paradise. As I understand it, it's the work of Holy Saturday that defeated death, and the grave could not contain God and He rose on Sunday, proving from that point onward Christians are not truly dead, but just temporarily separated from their bodies. On another topic, my kids and I read some of the lives of Plutarch and a repeated refrain was that it was better to die than be shamed. One story was about a defeated king being marched through the streets in a parade of the spoils of war, and the consensus was that the defeated king was worthy of scorn because he didn't take his own life, but surrendered. It kind of reminds me of Christ being paraded through the streets carrying His Cross. He truly changed how the Christian world (and even secular world) thinks to such a degree, that we can't comprehend what it was like before. Why do we think of self-sacrifice as the supreme good? It's because of Christ.
Yep!
Most folks miss 1 Peter 3:17- 4:6. as they only see Jesus as a sacrifice to die in place of us... "For Christ also suffered for sins once for all time, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison, who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [p]for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ... but they will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been [e]preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as people, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God. " What so many people miss when they say "He descended into Hades..." on Good Friday, is that Jesus wasn't merely there to be punished in place of us, but was also on a rescue mission, so that even those long buried would have a chance to hear the Holy Gospel, to be evangelized, so that the New Adam may reach the Old Adam! WHo is this King of Glory?!
Colossians 2:13-15
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
This verse speaks of debt paid right?
Austin, you are an excellent interviewer!
Can you add Turkish to subtitles please. Kirie eleison.
I love this
Back in the 1970s when I was working on my B.S., in religion I was rebuked for saying that the phrase, "Son of Man" that Jesus used was a mention of the book of Daniel's prophecy. The professor said no it refers to the humanity of Christ. This professor was a conservative, yet lacked knowledge of his O.T. I was in my late 20s back then, but spent hours studying the O.T. before even going to college. Unlike many Christians I read much in the O.T. Now I am 73 and felt out of place like I don't fit in the evangelical movement because I see so many things that are lacking. I didn't know that there were people in other communions that believe like I do.
The 'Son of Man' title is also the title God often uses with the prophets. So, it could also be said up until the trial, they were seeing him refer to himself as a prophet.
The Cross, then, that Christ bore, was not for His own deserts, but was the cross that awaited us, and was our due, through our condemnation by the Law…He took upon Himself the Cross that was our due, passing on Himself the condemnation of the Law, that the mouth of all lawlessness might henceforth be stopped, according to the saying of the Psalmist; the Sinless having suffered condemnation for the sin of all (John 19:16-18). Cyril of Alexandria, 'Book XII Commentary on John'
For that which we owed to us according to our crimes bear it, so He suffered for us, having made peace [with God] through the blood of His cross… St Jerome, Commentary on Isaiah'
“A sacrifice was needed to reconcile the Father on High with us and to sanctify us, since we had been soiled by fellowship with the evil one. There had to be a sacrifice which both cleansed and was clean, and a purified, sinless priest… It was clearly necessary for Christ to descend to Hades, but all these things were done with justice, without which God does not act.” Homily 16, 1, 2, 21 St Gregory Palamas
‘The Lord had to taste death for each, and having become a propitiatory sacrifice for the world, justify all by His blood’ St Basil, ' Letter to Bishop Optimus'
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. Romans 3.25
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
Isaiah 53.5-6
There are many contemporary Orthodox writers who wish to deny or downplay a number of concepts that relate to our redemption. They will argue we don't believe Christ had to die in our place, or that His blood needed to be shed to pay the penalty for our sins. They will deny the legitimacy of legal terms, in favor of the idea that the Church is a spiritual hospital. The problem is not that the Church is not a spiritual hospital, but rather that in emphasizing one set of images used to explain our salvation, they deny a whole set of equally valid images that are clearly Biblical. It is true that in the west there was an over emphasis on legal imagery, but the solution to such an imbalance is not a new imbalance in the opposite direction. We can and should speak of sin as an illness, but when we die, we do not go before the final medical exam -- we face the final judgment, which is a legal image if ever there was one. And so we can also speak of sin as a transgression of the Law of God, and of our need to be justified by God, even as we speak of sin in terms of an illness that we need to be healed of.
Fr John Whiteford, 'Do Orthodox Christians Believe in the Atonement?'
Dr. Eugenia Constantinou is simply wrong on the issue of penal substitution. It's not surprising taking into account her background, but one just cannot empty the cross of the penal aspect. That's why so many early Eastern authors wrote about Christ taking the penalty for the broken Law, taking Father's wrath that should be directed on us. Just one example. Athanasius of Alexandria commenting on Psalm 22 writes:
"Thou has made Thy wrath to rest upon me, says the one; and the other adds, I paid them things I never took. For He did not die as being Himself liable to death: He suffered for us, and bore in Himself the wrath that was the penalty of our transgression, even as Isaiah says, Himself bore our weaknesses." (Ἐπʼ ἐμὲ ἐπεστηρίχθη ὁ θυμός σου· ἐν δὲ τῷ ἑξηκοστῷ ὀγδόῳ· Ἃ οὐχ ἥρπασα, τότε ἀπετίννυον. Οὐ γὰρ ὑπεύθυνος ὢν ἀπέθνησκεν, ἀλλʼ ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἔπασχε, καὶ τὸν καθʼ ἡμῶν θυμὸν διὰ τὴν παράβασιν ἐφʼ ἑαυτὸν ἐβάσταζε, λέγοντα διὰ τοῦ Ἡσαΐου· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβε. "Epistola ad Marcellinum de interpretatione Psalmorum" 7, Migne PG 27:16-17).
completely agree, use the Catena bible Colossians 2:14 for more eastern quotes
Gods wrath in this context is death, specifically death on a tree as a sign of cursedness.
Jesus didn’t suffer the worlds worst, most painful, most horrifying death although it was painful and horrifying. The wrath He experienced was the experience of death, not on His own account but paying humanities debt to death (not paying off the Father, or Satan God forbid). The issue with PSA is that it takes Jesus experiencing Gods wrath in this sense, and then describes the cross primarily as Jesus getting tortured by his Father. The cross is more scripturally defined as the Father giving us His Son and the Son willingly offering himself to God on our behalf.
@@joshf2218 When someone tries to describe penal substations as "Jesus getting tortured by his Father" it is already known that it's a strawman :)
@@damiandziedzic23 Unfortunately in many cases it’s not. Most Reformed people, especially Reformed Baptists more influenced by the American Protestantism, reduce the cross to God killing Jesus as a stand in for the elect.
@@damiandziedzic23 but even Calvin says Christ suffers some invisible spiritual damnation on the cross.
The Brooklyn rabbi whose followers believed he was the Messiah was Menachem Schneerson..I remember that period. His followers hung around his burial site for days afterward as I recall.
I’m always so confused why the Orthodox do the “either or” thing and not both/and. It’s not Christus Victor instead of penal substitution, or recapitulation over legal satisfaction. Scripture definitely uses both kinds of language
I don’t think there is an either or. It’s when the context is “God killed Jesus” or God required Jesus to die in order to change his mind about you, where things get dicey. God doesn’t change this includes His mind. Also Jesus is God and God doesn’t kill God. There is a penal substitution even in orthodoxy from what I can see. The the substitution is Christ who underwent the punishment as our substitute. That punishment was death which we brought into the world through sin. God is the only life, He alone is the only source of it. When Adam and Eve left the life death entered. Christ warned them in the garden. Death passed to all men and God in his love for mankind took that punishment, death, in our place to defeat it so we don’t have to fear death our Creator has made a way for us. Christ died that he might bring us to the Father according to the scripture. He emptied the tombs and all men will now be resurrected, some to eternal life and some to torments.
I agree with you, Anglican Aesthetics! I am Catholic, and this kind of talk that Christ did not “pay” for our sins is very foreign to me. Scripture is FULL of references to Our Lord Jesus paying the price for us. Our Lord Himself said at the Last Supper that His blood was going to be poured out for the forgiveness of sin.
It is not “God killing Jesus.” It is God sacrificing Himself.
There’s no dispute Scripture uses the language of ransom, sacrifice, substitution, and punishment. The question is what is meant by this? By the time Calvin was formulating his PSA theory of the Atonement, he was already centuries and several philosophical movements removed from the context of the biblical images and language and their interpretation in the early Church Fathers. Calvin was a lawyer, not a theologian, Saint or even a patristic scholar. It matters.
@@lornadoone8887 Calvin wasn’t at all removed from the Fathers. The language of Christ paying the debt of punishment himself through his death is in Athanasius’ On the Incarnation. Anselm and Aquinas’ satisfaction theory is very, very close to PSA as well.
And also, while Calvin’s training was in law, it was more precisely in the humanities. He knew Greek and Hebrew like the back of his hand; it’s a huge stretch to say he wasn’t a theologian when all the Westminster divines considered him one of the best of the Reformed
@@anglicanaesthetics Facts 🔥
My friend, she is right about the problems with substitutional atonement. It is from the medieval text, Cur Deus Homo, by St Anselm. However, it was never the primary understanding of the cross in Catholicism. It was favored among descents of the English Reformation because Anselm was from Canterbury. The motivation to favor Anselm was nationalist not theological.
Please interview a theologian from Franciscan University like John Bergsma to learn about Catholic approaches to scripture and Covenantal theology of the Eucharist and the cross. It will be mindblowing and absolutely transformative. And only Catholics are deep in the scriptures in this way.
Excellent expose
the wages of sin is death....
Wages are owed
therefore a debt is paid when death occurs.
Thoughts?
Isaac, was thought to be about 30 and willingly carried the wood on which he was to be sacrificed. The Rabbis were on to something, but did not follow all the Way.
Thank you