Don't Tell Narcissists You WON'T FORGIVE Them
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- Опубліковано 27 жов 2023
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DISCLAIMER: THIS INFORMATION IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLINICAL CARE. PLEASE CONSULT A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER FOR GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO YOUR CASE. THIS VIDEO DISCUSSES NARCISSISM IN GENERAL.
THE VIDEO DOES NOT REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON, AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON, AS HAVING NARCISSISM. PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO LINK TO OR REPOST THIS VIDEO, ESPECIALLY TO SUPPORT AN ALLEGATION THAT THE MAKERS OF THIS VIDEO BELIEVE, OR SUPPORT A CLAIM, THAT A SPECIFIC PERSON IS A NARCISSIST. THAT WOULD BE AN UNAUTHORIZED MISUSE OF THE VIDEO AND THE INFORMATION FEATURED IN IT.
Narcissists: I'm not apologizing and I don't need your forgiveness, because I didn't do anything wrong.
💯🎯
Yep. And if you do… of course you forgive me. I didn’t do anything wrong.
How about him saying “I own my wrongs” however never says sorry or corrects his behavior… where’s the ownership there?!
@@MelissRosa Almost every utterance becomes about manipulating/ massaging your image of them so that you feel ashamed for even bringing it up, or that you’re being unfair to them.
As soon as you tell them you won’t forgive them, it’s all over for you after that. It will cause a narcissistic injury and they will seek to destroy you, potentially for the rest of your life. They expect instant forgiveness or even for you to just overlook whatever they do to you. You’re either their doormat or you’re public enemy number one.
Krucial knowledge
Just NOW
Thanks
🦅🏆😎
As happened with my sociopath narcissistic daughter for sending me illegal substance while I was living and fighting cancer in China. She tried to ruin my entire life by having me go to jail. I haven’t talked to her since.
In Thanksgiving: btw: Doctor Ramani Durvasula: Ph.D. : thank you 🙏: again: thank you 😊
Very true brother
@@brunowainaina5393 I’m sure you mean sister…
You don't "tell" narcissists anything. It's not like they're going to listen anyway. You just turn away, forget they exist and go on with your life leaving them behind.
I walked away from several narcissists in my life without any explanations. I just instinctively kept quiet and slowly removed myself from their orbit. I've never regretted the way I left and I've never felt such relief.
you must not "share" any information about your life with narcs
Way easier said than done.
❤❤❤❤❤
I've done that. When My father died I absolutely decided that since I no longer had to have contact with some people I could write it off and move on.
6 months later I got a call about property that belonged to my brother and I. ( I had not asked for or got one thing of my dad's, or even mine that was in his house, because I didn't want to deal with the family. I know my dad was free of abuse, lies, and antagonistic behavior.....and so was I.
I had the worst, unexpected reaction to that phone call. I couldn't figure it out. I started shaking and crying, just from my brothers voice. There was such a betrayal from him that he had never admitted, or apologized for.
I denied my gut reaction to get through the property dispute. ( my stepmom according to him was trying to sell my father's property) that belonged to my brother and I.
He acted like nothing ever happened and I had made up the stuff in my head. I wondered about miscommunication. I wondered if I was just emotional....or what. I stuffed down the feelings. It seemed like we were rebuilding a relationship. After he got my signature, he ended the relationship. He said he thinks he was autistic and admitted to being Machiavellian by choice. That he believed in the " greater good, ( good being what is good for him)
And that was it. It was definitely easier the second time....but, it is what
It is.
Don't forgive but don't tell them. Remove yourself physically, emotionally and psychologically from them.
I like that. Narcs will say that because you distance yourself from them, you haven't forgiven them.
And that’s how they’ll know.
👍😑
Best advice ever.
💯🎯👌🏾👌🏾... that's what I did...best decision I made within myself after they try to destroy me.
This is some Art of War level stuff. Don't interrupt someone making mistakes, they'll show you who they are.
You already know who they are at this point.
Narcissism is Art of War type of stuff. It's Machiavellianism at it's finest. It's passive aggressiveness.
When it's used on family or a loved one it destroys the family and those in it.
If you win (using narcissistic behaviors) you still lose.
But all of that depends on your priorities.
If you place more value on money than relationships, then you can win using these tactics.
If you want power and you keep someone isolated to keep them under your control... Then feeling powerful is what you value...not the person.
If feeling superior is what you value, then keeping someone down is what you value.
When people start playing chess like this you know it's not you that they want. It's something they want from you. And sometimes it's your life insurance money.
You can meet goals using these manipulative behaviors, no doubt about it. But a healthy loving relationship is not the goal for the person using these behaviors.
@@al8526 I was stalked for 11. I had death threats. My car was damaged. Things were left in my home to let me know he could get in anytime he wanted. Death threats....
I know the misery of it. Was he by chance military or DoD?
This is the comment here! 💯
"When you know internally that you don't forgive, you're usually not waiting for them to behave better." Beautifully said. Thank you!
I always grew up with people saying You need to forgive ... like telling your abuser, Hey, I forgive you, I love you, everything you did is OK, it's all OK! .......... and then the abuse just continues. And it's NOT okay.
Forgiveness for healing is optional, walking away for healing is a necessity.
@@PassionateFlower exactly.
That can be a really toxic mindset, especially when narc parents bring religion into it.
Forgiveness is a consequence of healing, not the other way around. By the time you are ready to forgive them, you probably don't care about the whole topic anymore.
I can forgive people who genuinely ask for it and promise to do better when they have only hurt me. I am not the type that consistently forgives the same people for the same bad behavior. For those people I do the daily practice that crappy childhood fairy recommends. Basically, I write down all of their bad behavior and release it. I get it out without involving them at all. Basically, I accept that they don’t care and that is ok because I release all of the toxicity they threw my way.
I also don’t feel a responsibility to forgive others who hurt several people. For example someone who murders or commits a crime against someone other than myself will never receive my forgiveness. Why should I make them feel better for doing something so horrible to another another individual? It’s also not my place to forgive them for taking the life or anything else from another. Unfortunately for them. If their victim is no longer on this earth to forgive them, then they will just have to live with it. That is how I feel about forgiveness. There is a way to move on without involving these toxic people. We do not need anything from them. I refuse to accept or receive what they try to send me.
I prefer say nothing !!! Anything you say they hear something else !!! Keep uploading !!!!😊😊😊😊
It's almost like a super power. Inhad to quit when my therapist reminded me I used to try talking to my mother for years and she wasn't capable of a normal and genuine response.
It's you say one thing. They hear and respond to something in their head.
Narcs believe what they choose and blame others
“Abandon all sincere communication when communicating with the insincere.”
To forgive, someone needs to apologize and that's something you will never get from a narcissist.
NEVER
You don't need an apology from someone in order to forgive. Forgiving someone is not excusing their behavior. It also doesn't mean you forget what they've done. Forgiveness is to release yourself from a lifetime prison of bitterness and hatred towards that person. It's very freeing if you can manage to get to that place, and anything the Narc does or says, or doesn't do or say is inconsequential.
@solagratia8573 that's some alternative religious version of forgiveness. Forgiveness literally means absolving someone of their responsibility for their bad behavior. Can we please stop telling people they're bitter and angry if they don't accept the excuses of their abusers and let them off the hook?
@@amberinthemist7912 Respectfully, I completely disagree with you. You can forgive someone for your own well-being, has nothing to do with them. I forgave my own Father for incest from ages 4-10. Didn't absolve him, but he and my Mom were both very broken people and did incalculable damage to both me and my Sister. They were both sexually abused themselves as children. They truly did the best they could and they loved us (albeit in their sick, distorted way). I had a good relationship with both of them prior to their passing on. I have forgiven numerous others who have hurt me and/or damaged me. I've also been in therapy most of my adult life and worked really, really hard on these things. I choose not to live in a prison of bitterness and anger eating me up from the inside out.
P.S. it is NOT excusing their behavior or letting them off the hook, not at all.
You don't have to "feel bitter" if you don't forgive. Was Jesus bitter when he forgave one repentant sinner on the cross but not the other who mocked him and was unrepentant? @@solagratia8573
Actions speak louder than words. Walk away walk away, live to fight another day.
Telling them you won't forgive them is just giving them narcissistic supply in the moment, a bargaining chip for the future, and putting a leash around your own neck. NOT saying it out loud is the bravest, smartest move that you could possibly make. Just make your moves with no telegraphing to the narcissist. Be safe. 💜
❤
I agree!
I think it's better that I don't tell anything about my personal feelings to the narcicist. Even if I am able to forgive, it's better to keep my distance!
yes! you are smart. I wish I had done that. I told way too much. now he has ammo.
Yelp, even if you tell them you forgive or won't forgive narcs, it doesn't matter because they will not change anyways
You're very much correct. Keep anything of substance close to the vest!
Hi Dr Ramani. When you forgive a person, including a narcissist, it frees you from them emotionally. You can forgive a friend for hurting you, but you do NOT have to associate with them anymore. I've been hurt many times in my life, but I just stayed away from them. Whatever they did to me, will not be forgotten, but I don't have to associate with them anymore bcse I won't TRUST them again anyway..
And don't tell your feelings to others, unless you absolutely know that you can trust that they won't be a flying monkey.
" indifference" not "forgiveness" is the goal. Abusers will NEVER own up to their actions.
I remember the time I had started equipping myself with techniques to deal with narc mother. One of the first things I started doing after disengaging myself in every way from her, was becoming indifferent. She threw a major fit when she realized she was being ignored. Again, no response from me. Ignoring a narc is how an empath/non-narc regains control of one's life.
My take is if they ask for forgiveness, don't respond. If they don't ask for forgiveness, also don't respond. It's not like they want your forgiveness. They just need another chance to get supply from you. Telling them that you won't forgive them gives them the pleasure that they have that control over you. And if they really squeeze you to forgive them, just say "ok, whatever". The only way you can get that win from a narcissist is by being indifferent to them. Show them that you don't even remember who they are, that they are non existent to you. Trust me, they live for attention and when you give them the taste of their own medicine, by being ignorant, confusing them with yes/no replies, being busy and happy elsewhere, and not falling for their repeated attempt to talk to you, to lure you back in trap, they go really crazy. If you can not do that from your heart, pretend to be happy and living well until you actually do. Trust me , cutting them out is the only true cure and you do get yourself back after that. Happy healing.❤
I'm reminded of that old poem: "And do not forgive, truly it is not in your power." I don't even try to forgive.
It seems like this would be like throwing gas onto a fire. But the irony is that narcissists never forgive. They say they do, but they don't.
I gave the narcissist the words they wanted to hear, only because I knew that they couldn't handle a truly healing conversation. They think we're reconciled, but in actuality nothing has changed as far as I'm concerned. I'm no contact as much as is possible.
Thank you! Absolutely. Forgiving a rattlesnake for biting you doesn't change the FACT that he's 100% going to do it again if you risk giving him the chance. It's about recognizing the nature and character of the person, understanding it, accepting it, opening your eyes, and not hoping or wishing for something different. With narcissists it simply isn't going to happen.
" How the F are you to forgive that?" Great line Dr! You have done so much good for survivors like me. The average intelligent friend can't even begin to understand where we are coming from, and they think we are just wallowing in our sorrows. So who do you turn to for empathy & compassion? Not them but you Dr. You are a blessing & bring us to the point of clear thinking once again. And yes their behavior has dramatically changed the outcome of our lives, not because we didnt try to prevent the struggles, but we had very little control over their behavior. TYVM ❤
OMG, you did it again, thank you. Now I can forgive myself for not forgiving the assholes in my life! Lord knows I tried, and felt so guilty for still having resentments and things that I haven't worked through yet. Be Blessed! P.S. Love the Superpower analogies!
Yesss! I do not forgive the narcissists in my life, instead I accept that it happened and move on. My intention is to forgive myself for ignoring my intuition and putting my needs on the back burner. Very much looking forward to feeling indifference ❤
I have been saying for ages that forgiveness is ridiculous. I believe it is a response to an apology. Yes, if someone sincerely apologizes- I can forgive them but still not want to engage further. As a general forgiveness to everyone in my past who has violated me physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually - no forgiving.
I must remember all of this. Thank you for your wisdom and your side of the story!
Biblical forgiveness involves both a sincere apology (aka acknowledgement of wrongdoing) and actions to correct the wrong done and effort to make future change. Narcissists are “never wrong” in their own eyes and hardly ever even make a token attempt at an apology, much less make any effort at restitution or change.
As with all enemies, don't let them know your game plan !
The narcs in my life have done unforgivable things. Things I would NEVER expect someone else to forgive. These narcs have been cut out of my life, lost all access and this is permanent.
At this point I do not give a rats ass what happens to them. Their karma is in the hands of the Universe. I’m done.
I have been pressured guilted and shamed into forgiving the abusive narcissistic family member despite the repeated bad behaviour on their part with no apology or accountability on their end. It makes me so mad and not want to be around those who tell me to ‘be the bigger person’ and ‘take the high road’ by continually forgiving their abuse. I no longer tell the enablers either that I am not forgiving and do not want the narc in my life. They don’t understand and think they’re being holier then though by telling me to forgive and let them back in my life as it’s godly. Pretty sure God doesn’t want me to tolerate repeated abuse from anyone. Thank you Dr Ramani ❤
Spot on. Heal yourself first, deal with the consequences of the enormous damage they did to you, put them and the memory of the huge harm they inflicted on you out of your mind. They aren't really human with the ability to feel remorse for the evil they do. They don't feel evil while doing evil. What do you do? Leave evil, accept that evil exists, and unfortunately you became a victim of evil. Like many others out there. So don't take it personally, but you don't need to forgive evil. Forgiveness is only deserved by repentant sinners who truly turn away from their narcissism, and develop the ability to no longer treat others as objects, untermensch or animals.
The Miranda Rights! ANYTHING you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Lol
Thank you for Dr. Ramani! Silence is key 🔑 ❤
Forgiveness for me goes hand in hand with forgetting. Forgetting that person has any kind of impact on my life. A stranger, maybe that's indifference.
It is not about forgiveness, it is about knowing what is not good for you and staying the hell away from it.
Dr Jeanne Safer wrote a book called “Forgiving and Not Forgiving-Why Sometimes it’s Better Not to Forgive”. She also said all these same things. Thanks for this video!
Ohhh will check this book out, thank you ❤
It’s REFRESHING that you don’t peddle fluffy tropes, Dr. Ramani! 🎉
In many cases, I feel the ‘forgiveness factor’ is just to help mutual friends or family feel better / less awkward about social discord.
I wrestled with forgiveness and ultimately concluded that in the absence of ANY kind of expressed remorse or apology and the continuance of her narcissistic behavior, I would never be able to forgive Megan. The timing of this video couldn't be better for me because it validates my reality. Thank you.
Definitely there is no point in forgiveness for someone who doesn't regret anything.
I saw the girl in your profile picture and I thought "is she Megan?" Then I thought probably not. But seriously don't forgive them the behavior is going continue.
@@blue-sushikatt3564, correct. M and I made that sweet little girl in my profile and co-parenting has been a rodeo; sure I've been hurt but the real one who is getting the short end of the stick is the child. And there is no turning back the clock the trauma has been experienced, innocence lost, and alienation of affection a work in progress. The battle for me is to stay alive long enough and be well enough to provide unconditional love when called upon. Because Fathers actually do matter even if some assert otherwise.
Those who talk forgiveness with shaming (or tut tut) subtext, use a word that they lack intimacy with; simply quoting from their 'rule' books. Forgiveness is a state of grace that can't be administered or forced - it can't even be defined.Thank you Dr. Ramani for covering this ..
Size yanlış yapan kim olursa olsun affetmeyin ve narsitlden kurtulmanın tek yolu kendimize odaklanmak başka yolu yok bu kuyunun içinden çıkmaknın.
Something I've learned during my years in therapy and working on myself is that forgiveness and reconciliation are two different things, and that you cannot forgive someone who is not willing to change their harmful behaviors as they will only see your forgiveness as a free pass.
Forgiveness doesn't mean (much less imply) reconciliation.
great point ❤
Oftentimes the person we need to forgive is ourselves.
My narcissistic mother never admits or accepts that she has ever done anything wrong. How CAN you forgive someone like that? I’ll never forgive some of the things she has done to me: threatening suicide while implying I was the cause; telling me she was going to admit herself to the psych ward and she just wanted me to know it was all my fault; threatening to sue me and my husband for a perceived (but non-existent) issue. Those are just a few of the most egregious ones. I am now in my 60s and have to make sure my mom is cared for, but I will never forgive her for those things. I would NEVER have done those things to my children- NEVER. I know that she is a sick person and that’s the best she can do. Even though I have years of dealing with her abuse, the fallout from me telling her I don’t forgive her would be horrible for my mental health. I don’t talk about it with anyone, but I have saved the knowledge of my “unforgiveness” as a gift to myself.
Thank you. ❤😌 Forgiveness is overrated.
I left a narcissistic relationship and just left and moved on with the rest of my life and haven't regretted my decision. Forgiveness makes people look dumb and naive. My mindset is to learn from the past and work for a better future. Become better smarter and more resilient. My experience with narcissistic people is don't tell them anything they're going to believe what they want and over time they'll find out that life doesn't always work out well for them.
Happy you are not in this dynamic anymore! ❤
"The oppisite of love is not hate but indifference." On a clock the opposite of the center is the edge, but the opposite of 9 is still 3, not the center.
I think of forgiveness in terms of getting to the place where one can let go of the “grudge “
Forgiveness does not mean staying in relation to toxicity.
I can walk away and forgive you 🙏🏾✨🙌🏽💯
I agree!
very well put ❤
I think of forgiveness as an internal thing, not a relationship thing. By letting go and healing over time we can attain indifference to our past abusers. Forgiveness is the path to indifference.
You are describing indifference not forgiveness. Forgiveness is a pardon. In your described scenario, if you came across this person again, would you have a relationship with them? Trust them? Resume as if nothing happened? Probably not. If there was forgiveness and you met up with them again, the slate would be wiped clean. Forgiveness requires the cooperation of both parties. It cannot be done unilaterally. However with indifference, if you met up with them again you would completely remember what they did, know well enough to guard yourself, and not let any emotional entanglement occur to suck you in.
@@l.5832
@l.5832
Forgiving does not mean forgetting. You can forgive AND not trust them anymore. You can forgive BUT you MUST remember all of what you have forgiven.
You forgive AND you will have no more relationships with the abuser. This is forgiveness (in the Catholic meaning. I am Catholic. Maybe the comment above is by a Catholic too)
@@lishmahlishmah Must be a Catholic thing. Although we are not God, we are instructed to model ourselves and values with his ways. When God forgives (after we repent, truly) the sins are buried.Hebrews 8: 12 "For I will be merciful to their iniquities, and I will remember them no more. " Forgiveness results in a restoration of the relationship just as God's forgiveness restores out relationship with him. It requires a mutual agreement (repentance / forgiveness)
@@l.5832
Exactly. Only God can _forgive and forget_ .
As far as we are concerned, as human beings, He told us to forgive "seventy times seven times"
(Matthew 18:22); in biblical language this means "infinite" .
Moreover He taught us the Lord's Prayer (I mean the part about forgiveness).
The point is: the abuser one day may repent and restore their relationship with God, even if we don't know it... And we can't even judge their future relationship with God.
Anyhow, this is not a theology forum...
But whatever religion (or no-religion) you follow, I truly believe that forgiveness (as explained in the comment up there) is important for radical acceptance and for healing.
I agree with you that if forgiveness were the thing you said (for example forgiving and then maintaining the same relationship pattern with the abuser), then ok, you are right, forgiveness is not possible nor a way for healing.
@@lishmahlishmah the 70x7 thing is if they repent....which would mean different infractions each time if repentance was genuine.
"I've got my sight now
I see everything you hid
So don't you try to right now
All the wrong you did
I might forget you
But not forgive"
Natalie Merchant, 'Seven Years'
❤❤❤
I slipped up big time by admitting to my narcissistic ex-wife that I intended to unveil the truth to our kids when they matured. She barraged me with outrageous lies and false accusations relentlessly, pushing me to the brink of despair. She bombarded me with close to 300 venomous messages daily, ranging from claims that my kids despised me, my daughter was referring to another man as "Dad," to daily death threats and her twisted desire to celebrate my demise. The once wonderful bond I shared with my children crumbled, and over the next 17 years, she meticulously poisoned their minds with her fabricated tales. Fast forward to today, and my children have completely bought into her distorted version of history, painting her as a saint while casting me as some kind of villain. The animosity I now receive from my adult children is indescribable and a far cry from what I had anticipated. I thought they would see through her manipulations and distance themselves from her as soon as they hit their teenage years, or were old enough to discern her true nature and her malicious actions. In hindsight, I've learned a hard lesson: never reveal your plans to a narcissist.
Every word spoken in this video had me nodding my head in agreement. I feel so relieved. I've been so alone in my thinking about the absurdity of pretending to forgive people who are not remorseful for any of the harm they have caused, and are life-long abusers
Thank you. And one of the things narcissists like to throw at their victims is, "You always hold a grudge." So if you tell them that you won't forgive them, then you play right into their narrative.
Wasting LIFETIMES waiting for narcissistic people to change 😮💯🤦🏽♀️
This is such a great video. Not forgiving a narcissist/toxic is the clearest demonstration of self-respect/ high self regard.
My narc mother will never change! It took me 3 years to heal when I found out she is a narc I couldn’t put a word to it all my life.. now I healed after 3 years and gone no contact and I don’t care anymore. I’m living my life for once at 36 🙏
I feel like forgiveness is being conflated with reconciliation here. I’ve actively worked to forgive people who hurt me but they no longer have the privilege of being in my life. But then again I think I have a different definition and understanding of forgiveness than what is commonly meant.
Forgiveness is a very personal thing. It’s not required to move on with your life and have peace
Right on! Forgiveness is part of radical acceptance - they will likely never acknowledge that they injured us nor make restitution BUT that also means reconciliation is not possible. As a Christian my example is Christ - although his death offered forgiveness to EVERYONE, only those who admit their sinfulness are reconciled to him.
You make a very interesting point. I think that we’re expected, especially as women, to have continued physical and emotional contact with a person we’ve ‘forgiven’., because it’s agreeable. We are pressured to reconcile with the person, to come together, work things out and restore the relationship. I am of the opinion, like you, that I don’t have to keep in contact with a person that has abused or taken advantage of me even if I’ve let go of the pain or damage they’ve caused me, and now look on them with equanimity. I think, now that I’m older, that my physical and emotional wellbeing is too important to be eroded by bad relationships.
Funny thing, a big “trigger” moment for a narcissist I had a nontrivial spat with a year ago was when instead of immediately forgiving him, I said water would eventually be under the bridge. Apparently his expectation was that I would immediately forgive him as he had stolen and was actively taking credit for something I had made for our mutual camp at a festival. My thinking was he’d previously promised to return the thing in its original condition and all I needed was for him to see that promise through. I would have held nothing against him had he meant it. It hadn’t occurred to me at the time this was going to set him off in that matter, but it makes sense now because he couldn’t handle the notion of being held responsible or be accountable to promises he’d made. But damn, the sense of entitlement.
Anyway, yeah don’t “forgive” those types of people. You just acknowledge what they are and interact with them in very tightly constrained manners that don’t give them any path to influence your own emotional, physical, social, or financial health.
Thank you once again for a helpful reminder
There is no such thing as “forgiving” other than letting go of a grudge that is hurting us.
We cannot and should not forget the lessons of life.
We have a duty to protect ourselves and our loved ones by choosing the right distance from hurtful people and remembering how to protect ourselves without ruminating on pas events and further inflicting pain and suffering upon ourselves.
The true meaning of “forgiving” them and ourselves as in the Lord’s Prayer is about the precious gift of a learning experience and letting go of the reminiscence of emotional abuse.
Before saying anything to anyone we should consider if that information is going to be helpful to any one, or is it simply going to release our own emotions. If it is the second case, we are going to pay too high a price for the momentary relief we are going to get.
I forgive them, that's between God and me. This is why I don't waste my breath talking to the narcissist(s):
Proverbs 9:7-8
7 If you try to correct an arrogant cynic, expect an angry insult in return. And if you try to confront an evil man, don’t be surprised if all you get is a slap in the face!
8 So don’t even bother to correct a mocker, for he’ll only hate you for it. But go ahead and correct the wise; they’ll love you even more.
(The Passion Translation)
His Word is my anchor⚓
Brilliant. It's like so many of our current beliefs about Forgiveness were dictated by self-serving Narcissists. Universal Forgiveness in every situation is NOT healthy. And of course, as you so skillfully outlined, keep not forgiving to yourself. Thank you!
Forgiving people without changed behavior separates the person from the harm they cause. It’s my understanding that narcissists know the harm they cause, they just think that it’s justified and/or that your pain can assuaged by whatever they provide in your dynamic. From what I’ve seen a lot of “supply” believe this too. I had to start asking myself, “How much is my pain and suffering worth?”.
It was in my pursuit of a career that I was future faked into that I learned the difference between working hard and out right suffering. I like working hard, it actually feels good and I can take proper care of myself while working hard not while suffering. Ill work hard for myself and for people I love and that are/would reciprocate. I won’t suffer for anyone/anything as a lifestyle.
The narcissist on my life told me, "You HAVE to forgive me!"
Entitled much?
I responded, "I may have to forgive you, but I don't have to take you back."
His reply: "Yes you do!"
It was then that I realized that there are different interpretations of forgiveness.
My interpretation is that I will no longer seek revenge for your sins, but that doesn't mean that you have access to me as a person. I will forgive a snake for being a snake, but I will not willingly offer it my ankle.
That's 💯🎯🎯 True! Lesson learned. Never say anything. Please keep your distance and just walk away... Forgive yourself, don't self blame, even if you forgive them, it's better not to say anything, observe from a distance and wish them well... Thanks again 🌷🩷Dr.Ramani. Your vlogs have been a saving tool.❤️❤️
You can forgive them and stay away from them. And the hardest part we can forgive ourselves 🙏
❤
Thank you for clarifying when forgiveness is more harmful than not. Sincere forgiveness is genuine and healing. Forced forgiveness (to me) is like being narcissistic to myself.
I forgave myself! I do not have to see him,I believe he blocked me😆 not sure have not checked. Forgiving me helped me see the child inside me sooner.
I accept everything he was not. This was profound for me. This was great Dr R. He’s on to new supply girls,guys whatever.
My moral compass is in tack. Grateful everyday for the knowledge I have gained here. Power to peace.👍🏻
Intact
There is a context for forgiveness. It’s not saying that what they did was “okay.” It’s definitely not going back to a toxic situation. It’s in the recognition that these people are lost, mindless automatons perpetuating the generational, family curse. Nothing they did was ever directed as us personally because they never even knew who we were. They can’t, because they’re automatons. “Father, forgive them, because they don’t know what they’re doing.”
@@after-arts4708 *Ha!* They know exactly what they're doing and they delight in it...
Today I walked out of the narcissistic abuser. I didn't or won't say anything to her anymore, ever. From now on I have two brothers as my siblings. 'She' is history.
Forgiveness only works with empathetic people and non-traumatic experiences. The principles of forgiveness can be destructive when you apply them to a narcissistic relationships. What does work is "INDIFFERENCE". No longer engaging with the narcissistic. Not chasing revenge or remorse, you simply just don't care. INDIFFERENCE is the place where very little emotional ties exists between you and the narcissistic.
I’ve been through a months long ordeal with my narc spouse about forgiveness. They wanted a schedule of meetings multiple times a week to go through how they harmed me and then a follow-up to see if I had forgiven them yet. What the heck? I refused and said I’d get back to them when I was ready. Realizing that any conversation like that was supply for them was a huge step and very helpful. Yellow rock, grey rock, and not going DEEP has made all the difference!
I think forgiveness has many meanings. It's a grieving process. To me, radical acceptance is true forgiveness. You are no longer allowing someone to steal your joy. It doesn't require you to tell anyone. You may not even realize it is happening. But, when you realize that person no longer has a stronghold on a part of your soul, you are there.
So glad you spoke about not forgiving & still healing. I live in a place inhabited by extremely toxic & unconscious folks. I went to A Course In Miracles group & said I thought pushing people to forgive in order to heal was unhealthy & dismissive. I was patronized & judged to the point of not returning. Tired of these phony so- and-sos always trying to shut down authentic expressions of a person’s process. I once told a flying monkey brother( in an incestuous & narcissistic family dynamic)… after being asked by a toxic disbelieving mother that the best Christmas present we could give her would be to ‘let bygones be bygones’- when the abuse was never even acknowledged, I was ostracized & scapegoated & my brother- a sexual predator & malignant narcissist- possibly sociopath- is the golden child & loved by everyone but me…. I’m excluded from everything, don’t even know my nieces & nephews & their kids- because I’m the crazy liar. How can I forgive this betrayal that has negatively impacted almost every relationship & especially my feelings toward sexuality & romance? Why should I forgive them? It would be self abuse.
Forgive yourself for what you didn't know. If you forgive them they believe they can do it again.
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Dr. Ramani, Thank you!!!! I needed to hear this! Some people I just can't forgive.
Thank you So Much. Neally 54years of Suffering in So Many Ways, its just Geat to hear you, its as if , you have a window into my life. Thank you for your Help.
You are right again Dr. Ramani!🙏🏻💜 This helps me so much against my ruminating. Every time that I could forgive him, he hurt me again and betrayed me. He never cared. And now I understand why. He could not regret it like a decent person can! And after I left him I decided NOT to forgive him anymore and that helped me not to stay stuck any longer. You give me support once again🌬⚘❤
I am happy you are free of this now. Sending you loots of love ❤
Remain silent! They don't know what to do with your silence. They may step it up just watch the manipulations. They are simpliest creatures. Don't react to any smear campign!
i had a work smear campaign, and not replying to/ refuting the false claims would have had legal implications for me.. Annoying, but as i kept all the original papers & communications, easy to refute.
Please always take into account the particulars of the situation you are in ... Sometimes you simply have to respond to be in the clear
It's been months since the narc I dated "dumped me". Haven't spoken since and have no desire to. I do forgive myself for dating that loser.
I think of forgiveness as not seeking revenge and giving up on the person.
It's always a survival thing when it comes to dealing with a narcissist. And not telling them that you won't forgive them is no exception to the survival element. That it could all be about strategy and how that is OK is something new to me. I can readily see it as strategy for women (the vulnerability thing) but I guess I never saw it as a strategy for men till now.
You and these comments have won me the battle & the war ❤
Watching your videos has given me so much help with dealing with my mom. She's currently trying shady shenanigans that have resulted in me finally going no contact. It's so bad that my brother, the Golden child, is appalled by her behaviour and he started watching your videos too. I've been staying clear, while she keeps digging her hole, and finally others are seeing. I've been able to set and stick to boundaries, thanks to you Dr. Ramani 💙
Thank goodness I get to listen to you Dr Ramani 💕I have to be careful not to get harmed again I just have to protect myself and not give myself years of more abuse! 🙏❤️❤️❤️
What a beautiful, wonderful,pp precious message. The world is not quite fully aware of narracism. Thank you for getting us to the next step after being tramatize beyond belief. Thanks for being honest and helpful. May our Creator bless you beyond measure
This….this….this…also applies to work and general people….narc PERS TYPE :”you can’t hold me to the standard that you dont apply to other”… but other don’t cross the line and you do… they do t see it!!!
It depends on how codependent you were it is a process of letting go of injuries
The thing is: the meaning of the word "forgiveness" depends entirely on the culture in which you grew up.
To me, when you Dr Ramani talk about "radical acceptance", you are already presuming forgiveness 100%.
Why? Because radical acceptance means at least 3 things:
1) I accept what happened to me (and I don't want it to happen anymore)
2) I accept that the narcissist will not change (and I absolutely will not try to change them)
3) I accept not to take revenge on the narcissist (but I still may want justice in court. In any case, even without any justice, I will continue to rebuild my life).
You see Dr Ramani, in my culture ( _christian catholic culture_ ) the so-called radical acceptance... truly is forgiving the abuser.
Moreover, in most cases , I'll have to go Gray Rock or Yellow Rock...
Well, in my culture, treating a person Gray or Yellow is already forgiveness.
I mean: Radical Acceptance, Grey Rock and Yellow Rock, all this "actions" and "attitudes", they simple mean _forgiving_ both in my culture and in my religion.
Kissing, hugging and allowing the abuser to do again their devastating things is NOT forgiveness.
For people from Catholic culture, only God can "forgive and forget" in that way (also because only God knows people in the depths of their soul...).
Sometimes, in certain cases, it is possible (for human beings) to forgive people (with hugs, kisses and keeping going on with a genuine, sincere and healthy relationship) with a real improvement in the relationship.
In other cases - such as narcissistic relationships - it's just not possible.
But even if I go no contact, even if I'm angry with them (but I don't take revenge on them):
this is already forgiveness in my culture. The minimum level of forgiveness, ok, but it is true forgiveness.
That's why, when I listen to you (and many other American people)... I have to translate twice: the language and the culture. Btw, I can't wait to read your book (in English)... and I hope the Italian translation will be done too. Thank you 💚💚💚💚💚💚💚💚💚💚💚💚💚💚💚
I don't know who needs to hear this, but... it may take a lifetime to heal from the trauma, BUT the moment they leave your life, you will have peace in life again and love and respect for yourself.
Thank you very much Dr. Ramani and you are looking more glorious and gorgeous than ever. 😍
Slay queen. 💅
Unfortunately Unforgivable
Underestimated
my Boundaries of
Not Harming the Children
Radical Acceptance
is a T'ing, but
Protect
your Pikknee
🦅🏆😎
It's more important to forgive ourselves, and not blame ourselves for falling into the narcissistic trap! Forgive and forget...?- let's update to ' I forgive myself and I forget you too!
Oh Yes!
Hello!!!!!!! I am very thankful for all of your teaching. You helped me out of a very toxic marriage and i am now stable and doing well (with ongoing therapy). I do want to chime in here, however, and offer a little different angle on forgiveness. I think our western culture (at least) misinterprets the purpose of forgiveness. It starts when we mistakingly and misguidedly (IMO) start teaching preschool kids to say "sorry" when they hurt a little friend and then forcing the victim to say back "I forgive you." And then....OK, you two give each other a hug and go play. UM. NO. That is just not what forgiveness is about. It is not about reconciliation or minimizing the pain or negative impact of the offense. In fact, it is only between the victim and their God or soul or universe or whatever belief set you might ascribe to. It does not and often should not be shared with the offender. And further, for forgiveness to have any healing value for the victim, the full weight and gravity and destruction from the offense must be felt fully and recognized as the horrific bad thing it was. No role for minimization or excuses or whatever. NO. Not at all. But the weight of the offense must be put back completely on the offender. And not carried anymore by the victim. I say "It is necessary FOR me/you/they to GIVE it back to God/higher power." FOR. GIVE. It has nothing to do with reconciliation or minimization or validation or even the recognition BY THE OTHER PERSON that they hurt us (they usually never will and that's fine). It has to do with not keeping the role of carrying the offense for a lifetime. As you have so often taught, their behavior has nothing to do with us and everything to do with them. So why carry their ugly package they threw at me? I'm going to set it down and walk away from it. Anyway......I hope that gives a little helpful angle. Thank you for sharing your gifts and talents on this public platform. It is a huge blessing and resource. Warmly, Elizabeth
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Love it.
The best angle you have given that I was unable to give words to describe it well. As a victim I was feeling guilty for not forgive the person who hurt me so badly many times.
Yes sorry should be between the victim and the God.
Your words really helped me that offender deserves to carry the burden of their actions not the victim for not forgive them.
Thanks so much.
Have privately forgiven them & myself but never, ever, ever forget.
Life has so moved along in the right direction 🌻
I've forgiven many ppl, but I don't want them in my life. I may see them every once in a while, but I don't consider them fam or friends. They're just someone I'll do the right thing for. Some of these ppl I can still feel the hate from. They've changed their approach, but I refuse to believe they've changed overnight.
Discernable forgiveness. Reserving genuine forgiveness for those who are genuinely sorry is an act of self-love. I've genuinely forgiven people who weren't genuinely sorry; needless to say it proved detrimental. It was as though I'd given them permission to treat me however they please without change. I feel like society at large frowns upon the unforgiver, so this message finds me a bit lighter. No contact has been freeing and the vital first step on the forever-path that healing is. I no longer forgive behavior that isn't okay. And there will be no more of it. Walking away without another word is a sigh of relief+breath of fresh air.
I have learned that forgiving does not change their behavior or excuse it. Their repetitive behavior (in my opinion) show intent-not change. I extend forgiveness to myself for allowing myself to tolerate their behavior and love myself through it. Their behavior will not change and they will simply move to the next with the same behavior. Forgive yourself and love yourself through the process.
Actions speak louder than words. When the narcissist gives you a fake apology simply say "if you are truly (truly being a key word here) sorry then I forgive you" or give them a conditional forgiveness. When I was growing up my evil step monster would make all of my birthday or Christmas gift conditional. So I like the conditional forgiveness myself. If you are truly sorry then your actions will show the truth and I will forgive you when I see that you are truly sorry.
Dr. Ramani, I am dealing with my narc ex unleashing narc rage onto me constantly. He's been stalking my social media and seeing how I'm trying to move on and be happy and get healthier, and he's trying his best to tear it all down by any means necessary. I told him I never want to speak to him again, but he is trying everything to gouge me into being upset and breaking down and responding. I have no idea how to keep being strong but I know i have to. Your videos have helped so much, thank you. Your strength, advice, and honestly almost nurturing demeanor has given me the ability to look ahead and not break down. So, thank you.
I forgave and he apologized and it became a never ending pattern but while my forgiveness had to be customized to the ever evolving bad behavior, his apology remained superficial from beginning to end. My forgiveness became about as genuine as his apologies and bred contempt and resentment without resolution. Reconciliation felt more like quicksand. I didn’t move so I wouldn’t sink and got stuck before I realized the importance of quality vs quantity in terms of the narcissists apologies. Unfortunately, I was still expecting for him to pull me out even after the discard which is the scariest part of the trauma bond.
I'm having a similar issue. They apologize so much it just feels empty and shallow every time they do . They throw apologies out like candy at a parade. Do something to upset me, (sometimes something I already stated upsets me), and they give me a cheap apology that didn't even sound sincere, as if they were almost annoyed they had to say it. And then I get annoyed hearing it for the 100th time, sometimes about the same thing they've apologized for in the past. And when you said that your forgiveness felt about as genuine as their apologies, I felt that on a deep level. It does breed soo much resentment. It's all about quantity over quality with them about apologies just like you said. I'm tired of hearing it and I'm turning about as fake as they are. Hiding my emotions only makes them build and then when I finally blow up, they use that as a weapon against me to call me unreasonable, or treat me like I'm the bad guy. I'm trying to learn to talk things out in a way that doesn't come off as an attack to them and communicate effectively, but also so I don't hold it in and blow up either. Stating my wants and needs firmly and assertively without playing the blame game. I think he has narcissistic tendencies but he's not a true narcissist. It's just he doesn't learn as quickly from his mistakes or does as much introspection work as me. So it takes him longer to learn something isn't okay and to change his behavior. I noticed he likes to apologies properly when I apologize about something that I did first.
I'm still waiting for an apology from these evil people for their filthy behavior. I'm insulted by their presence around me, even when they're pretending to be good.
I grew up on your channel to help me realize the abuse that went on in my own family. I eventually didn’t need to rely on this channel anymore because I went No Contact and mastered everything. I was free. Now, my fiancé’s mom is a narcissist and I’m having to gray rock again as a highly sensitive person. I feel small. I already got my big belt buckle from this rodeo and am upset at having to do it again. My fiancé is worth it, though.
Thank you for being here for us, Dr. Ramani!😢 Bless your soul
My book was ordered weeks ago! Cant wait!!!
Your book: Should you stay or should you go, is saving my life!!!
Unforgiveness can cause cancer they say, maybe forgive but don’t tell them and be wise or best is just to leave and forget them not letting them live rent free in your mind
My narc ex would ask to be forgiven while promising change. and at first I would say yes, I forgive you. The first time I asked him WHY I should forgive yet again, after all the times before, he went ballistic! I realized then that for him, forgiveness was a free pass to keep hurting.
It’s rather difficult when the narcissist in your life is your son. I am sad for him… as his mother I know what he was before meth. After meth he changed slowly towards myself and my husband. He’s 42, and no longer in our lives. It was very hard.. but we had no choice. I DO forgive but haven’t said it to anyone.. I just know that there will never be a relationship with him. That’s sad. But I am not hanging out there emotionally. We moved away, he doesn’t know where we are we’re healing. You have helped sooo much. Thank you Dr Ramani! Listening to you and beginning to realize what we were dealing with a couple of years ago.. we began our separation process with our son.
I had to deal with narcissit people, but the real and best thing that you can do for youself is to heal. If you do that, if you take the step and love yourself, respect yourself, etc....the narcissit and what he/ she is doing....will not matter. You will have a different perspective. More, you wilk cut the cnnection with all toxic things that other people can say or do to you, because you know your worth. Have trust in yourselves and heal, it is a hard road, covered with pain, frustration, tears, anger, but at the end.....is worth it! It is not about them, it is about you!
Thanks for the hard truths Dr. Ramani. It's tough to hear, but makes sense. There is no fix where both parties can be truly happy. There is only radical acceptance, suffering more, or getting out.
You are the best. You have helped me so much.