100%. If this was any other company with no explanation, I would never consider buying another product from them, however, with this transparent explanation, showing the cause and the corrective measures, I've been retained as a customer. A++++, I agree, this should be the norm.
But still, not properly testing final product before shipping it to customers, that's kind of lame. Btw. I'd prefer using rubber for a pressure ring around CPU. I'd not be surprised if using radius instead of chamfer is going to only delay when CPU's get damaged by this direct die cooler.
@@mr.number9279 You're missing the point. Everybody makes mistakes, but only some can deal with them in a way, which makes most of customers satisfied.
@@mr.number9279what a garbage response. As a company they did everything right, took the product of the market, reimbursed effected customers and never blamed anybody but themselves. They made a mistake resulting in bringing a bad product to the market, but did everything right after that and learned a lesson. That alone is rare these days, let alone being open about it.
An honest man/company admits its mistake and improves it, but above all communicates it to users. This creates a reliable and good relationship between the customer and the manufacturer. I appreciate this kind of thinking, which unfortunately is used in few companies.
@@AnCapGamer especially Intel with their RMA policy regarding readability of markings on 13rd and 14th gen IHS. My 13900ks is impacted by the voltage gate due to their first microcodes that slowly killed burning the chips, and my RMA was refused because of that.... 😢 I was hopefull because once I received back the cpu, and after a thoroughly cleaning process of the remaining LM residue taints, the batch number was readable again. So I sent them photos of the cleaned IHS were markings were now back to live, confident that Intel will review their decision, but they said : "Following the response received from the higher level team, we regret to inform you that we cannot pursue your warranty claim for your processor. Your processor warranty is voided because the markings on the processor are not readable. The decision being final, this file will soon be closed. If you have further questions regarding other Intel products, please do not hesitate to contact us. We wish you a pleasant day!" I'm sick guys 🤕🤮🤯
Yeah really great i wished more company would be so honest, sadly i know from experience that other companies like to keep faulty stuff secret form the customer or even just keep selling known faulty stuff.
@@Dan-Simms When one arm of the business does custom or industrial type stuff and you are also ever expanding in breadth towards low volume products in consumer market, you've got to have some capacity in house, it just makes sense. Plus i can't even imagine running a dynamic manufacturing business where you need to react to things being released on a day by day basis without having a reasonably equipped in-house prototyping workshop, like that's mad.
thanks. The previous 1-2 years were crazy in this regard. A lot of mistakes but we learned from them and for the next blocks for 1851 it should be much better right from the start :)
Well done for taking on Joe Robey - I hope he serves you well as an employee, and that he finds value and fulfilment in his new position at Thermal Grizzly. Thank you for your continued honesty and transparency in this video - keep up the good work!
@@tavi7 If there is a mix of copper and aluminum in the cooling loop that can cause galvanic corrosion, so manufacturers will typically plate blocks with nickel to avoid this issue.
@@cristianvasiliu9025except it doesn't. There's nothing that will prevent aluminum from causing galvanic corrosion in a loop, some things that will help: 1. Properly formulated coolant. (Film forming + buffering) 2. Electrically isolate all parts so there's no conductor to form a full galvanic cell.
@@JohnDoe-c2f isnt the point of the coating to isolate it from the loop though, meaning it effectively isnt in the loop? am i missing something, it seems like fully isolating it will prevent it from causing galvanic corrosion
I love that you preferred the higher performance over the visuals for the nickel plating. I cant speak for everyone, but if you're buying thermal grizzly, I think you have the same priorities
@@kurok1tenshi aesthetics are a secondary reason. Corrosion/oxidisation protection is the main reason since copper will slowly form a green patina even when exposed to air
People generally don’t have too many issues with faulty products…. It’s how the business / manufacturer deals with the situation which garners respect and support from customers 🥰💪😇👍
I don't know how you don't have issue with that. It's supposed to be premium product considering price compared to other products but they didn't even bother to test it before selling it...
I disagree, people have issues with faulty products. I would be pretty pissed if I did a lot of work replacing the spark plugs of my car only to find it defective, it’s a similar case with a really expensive CPU block that requires a lot of work to assemble. If the company behind it responds well, it lessens the anger for sure, but if I’m paying a lot of money for quality, I would be pretty angry if I didn’t receive quality
Yeah this is just not true. The average user absolutely has a problem with faulty products, and they should. The companies response just determines how severe their reaction is.
4:55 "stretch it a little bit, and then we can definitely see a difference" Whoa, that looked so sweet and makes it super clear what's going on! Great footage.
This behavior right here is precisely why I never hesitate to choose Thermal Grizzly over other brands. This was a very informative video. Keep up the great work!
Honestly this exactly. Be it thermal compound or my next block, even if it's overkill for my use case at a time, I will still gladly support TG over many others.
There's an expression "It’s not rocket science". This story shows two things. Firstly, a lot of things ARE rocket science. Secondly, there's a difference between science and engineering. Engineering is finding out how all the science interacts in practise, and fixing it. Something Boeing has been finding out recently.
The funny thing is, rocketry *science* is arguably remarkably simple. Does this fuel do ΔV pretty good? Cool. Also, rocket science isn't like really a thing, I don't think? It's a bunch of different sciences that don't really have much to do with each other in terms of the science. Rocketry *engineering* is a nightmare field filled with the most brilliant and stressed out minds on the planet, because messing that up leads to huge amounts of wasted work, material, and sometimes life.
Boeing made a childish mistake in working with composite materials, from an engineering point of view. Any engineer who worked with composites would have been able to see these obvious stress points where the composite could begin to delaminate. It is doubtful that they did not know about this flaw at the design stage, most likely they did it to reduce the cost of production, considering this flaw insignificant. There is no crime that business will not make for the sake of super profits.
Development is so expensive. I am amazed you are able to handle the difficulties and expense with a calm demeanor. Bravo. I am buying after this new revision is available. So many companies short-cut their way to profit. You have built one more loyal customer.
Actually really cool the common understanding of “the nickel is so thin it should have negligible impact” still holds true, but when you’re at the bleeding edge these things start to matter significantly
With things like PBO/2 & auto overclocking even 2C can give more performance these days. I'm all for a rear fan behind the motherboard behind the socket because of it
Bleeding edge LOL. Your lack of education does not change the complexity of the world around you. What they are attempting is far from new, and not difficult... Until you violate the rule of perception vs complexity.
Coatings are notorious for causing issues like this. Been a recurring issue for possibly over 100 years. If you look on any high tech coating manufacturers website they go into great detail about how it affects tolerances.
This being amorphous is also bad for conductivity, see the recent @nilered video about him making amorphous metal glass in his ATOMIC TRAMPOLINE video (if you have the hour to spare). He talks about how bad the amorphous metal is at conducting heat. He's trying to arc-blast it and it won't melt LOL I think the nickel plating being amorphous is bad for conductivity.
I really appreciate the honesty, hard work in identifying the issue and the transparent video explaining everything…….. That being said, I am a purchaser of an am5 heatspreader in mid-July and am slightly disappointed after I contacted TG in hopes of an exchange or discount and wasn’t told I could do so as it was from a different vendor that did the coating. However, it now says on the website that the new coating gives up to 5C temp difference. I do like the product but it was interesting to learn the testing is done before the coating which leaves me doubt in the gains in lower temps I receive from my heatspreader. Again, I like the product and will probably purchase the new version but am a little disappointed that this came to light right after my purchase.
Yeah performance is much more important than appearance. I worked for VW, Porsche/Audi for thirteen years as a tech (diagnostician) and all the German engineers were just like this guy, smart, thorough, but in their case very hard headed. You had to prove every suggestion/idea completely and I learned a lot working with them. They were some of the smartest people on the planet and it was both energetic and aggravating interacting with them. I'm 73 now and it was a long time ago but my time spent here reminds me of that era. I never made it to Wolfsburg...
I wonder if that still holds true. I mean sure engineers are going to be as sharp as ever, but the deciding entities on everything is upper and middle managment which majorly does not come from engineering background. This is how we got the emissions scandal and a lot of other things.
When applying chrome to steel, you must first copper plate, then nickel plate, then chrome plate. I understand the boundary layers, but I did not think about the impact on thermals till now. I am just a Mechanic and tech enthusiast. Excellent work, Roman. Your transparency is greatly appreciated, and it is something lacking in this day and age. Maybe GN will do a video on Thermal Grizzly. A positive one, of course! Have a great day, Sir! o7
One of my engineering mentors pointed out that whether it's construction or manufacturing, issues and irregularities are almost always found at interfaces
It must have been frustrating for both you and the customers to hear that the water block was not doing its job. But your reaction to quickly remove the product from purchase shows that you are an honest bunch and are willing to do the right thing
Besides the technical stuff about water cooling that was taught in this video, there's another very important teaching point that other companies really need to hear: Customers EXPECT companies to make mistakes. It's how they recover from them that matters from a customer's viewpoint. THIS is the proper way to recover. Fully transparent, nothing but the truth, and a full explanation that regains/retains customer faith in the company. EVERY company out there should watch this video.
I see everybody is saying what I am about to, so add me to the list. You have a level of transparency that others should look up to. Not only did you talk about your mistake, but you actually explained, IN DETAIL, why it happened and how to avoid it. I'm calling this educational transparency. If every company did this our technology would develope so friggin fast. The greed is crippling advancement. I applaud you, sir! You have taught me a few things. And at least one of those things has nothing to do with computers, metal, or technology. Thank you!
And this is where other companies keep going wrong. If there is an issue, find the "why" and tell people what was going on. Thank you for being open and honest about what you found, this is how you build a firm base of trust!
highest level of integrity. your instruction and explanation was very well done allowing those of us without a chemical engineering degree to grasp the concept of what went wrong. thank you, roman. great job!
Really cool of you guys to share the journey like this. For everyone to learn and understand. I'll never go direct-die myself, but it's great to know the care and transparency I can expect from Thermal Grizzly.
This is not just about honesty. This is also about engineering. Understanding heat transfer and metallurgy, machining and contact pressure, and crafting all of that knowledge into a working product. I particularly like the approach of "performance first" - it isn't that appearance does not matter, but given I have no RGB (don't want to be distracted when gaming) and nobody can even SEE any of those shiny surfaces once the block is installed, I have absolutely no problem with how it looks. "Satin" is also a trendy finish, sometimes preferred over "mirror" anyway. I'm quite sure no other "tech" PC youtube channel could even attempt to discuss any of this detail, never mind do it in a second language. Great job. I do have one reservation though: replacing the chamfer with a radius does indeed remove a sharp edge with a gradual fade out of contact. BUT that contact pressure ring still looks too narrow, and particularly ceasing while still much too far from the edge of the PCB. All of the pressure from pins outboard of the last contact area is pressing upwards, and concentrating that contact force at that edge, whether sharp or radiused. I would be seeking to absolutely maximise the width of that contact ring, pushing it as close to the plastic as possible. Ideally, touching ALL of the PCB wherever possible. That way, the pin pressure will press the PCB up against the block everywhere, and flatness (or rather, bending) will cease to be an issue. Note too that the chamfer and radius both reduce the area of contact, which exacerbates the local contact pressure at the edge of the raised surface, regardless of the finishing machining there.
the troubles I see are: with bringing it further to the edge is that it'll come into contact with the SMDs and probe points - it's already pretty close on the chips shown, and those aren't the *900ks which will have more SMDs; making the rim too wide would cause it to want to bow underneath the relatively large & fragile chip as well, which is already under pressure, and could cause the chip's underneath contacts/protective side-coating/the chip itself to be compromised from the inherant unevenness of the mounting process
respectfully to derbauer, there shouldnt be any contact with pcb at all - the block should only contact the exposed core. any tensioning/torsioning issues should be mitigated by a bolted-thru metal backplate with metal thumbscrews atop industrial grade springs alone, not physical pressure on a soft pcb. warpage bad enough to sever traces may be delayed by rounding the 'pressure ring' edge, but not prevented. in the beginning of the vid its stated that it was designed to *counteract* pcb deformation; imo this is clear evidence that the mounting solution itself needs to be more carefully redesigned (in terms of mathematical calculation of pressure and the angles of its distribution)
Well here's to hoping that someday you figure out what specifications mean. Do you also cut in lines too? I'm just trying to establish a pattern of behavior with you.
Love the transparency and breaking down everything that happened and what went wrong. There's basically no company with the courage to do this, and I gotta respect it when I see it.
the transparency about what works what goes wrong and where possible fault lies lead to confidence. Right now my system is running fine and I do not need a new water block but with this report you have gained a future customer.
@viperpit-lr2rp absolutely. Also as a brit living in china i have been using thermal grizzly thermal paste for my last 4 builds and even the paste coms with a scan code that links to an online data base to confirm authenticity. Such lengths made by the company to ensure that customers get what they pay for is above and beyond what the majority of other companies do. I also subscribed to the channel a long time ago and even saw how he handled issues in the past. My reference to a water block is simply that it is a product i have yet to purchase from them. so both a returning but also new product customer.
Absolutely love how you shared your experience, as a manufacturer, with us. It was a very informative and interesting watch! You certainly have garnered my respect. Best regards
Unexpected engineering problems and process of finding their solutions are some of my favorite types of videos. Thank you and keep up the excellent work der8auer team.
Derbauer has come to save the day! EKWB is going under due to their poor management to say the least and Thermal Grizzly is taking their spot. Lets hope they start making Radiators and pumps too, too many other companies that are out to screw people over to make better margins, Corsir.
I wouldn’t exactly say that TG ”is taking their spot”, the company is still pretty small and specializes in certain products. Watercool in other hand is a german manufacturer that has been in the watercooling market for a really long time. I still wouldn’t say that they’re taking any spots either though. Most of the known pumps like D5 and DDC are made by Xylem and simply rebranded for Watercool, EK, Corsair etc. I personally think that Corsair pricing is actually decent for their radiators which are made by HWL and I like their hard tubing.
This right here is why I buy TG products. They may be a bit more expensive than their competitors but you know there's _integrity_, and transparency in the company. They stand behind their products, which is a rare thing to come by these days. Thanks for not simply chasing the almighty Euro/Dollar Roman!
I like how much thought you put in the design of those blocks, it really shows that you and your company care about your customers. I just wish you had those blocks in clear acrylic top version.
Great job, finding the problem and fixing it while keeping customers in the loop and happy. A few other companies should be taking notes, but I doubt they will. I had no idea who you were when I bought my Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL, which I still love BTW. Now it's kind of funny watching your videos with a little plaque visible inside my case with your name on it. I hope you create a version of your direct die block for AM5. That's my next build and I want to go nuts with it.
Public statements and transparency like this and my experiences with your support are why I use your blocks. The old mycro blocks were good, just ordered a new AMD pro block. Looking forwards to it.
It seems that the microscopic level of detail was absolutely key to both understanding and improving the process/performance issues. Glad you know what to do with future projects.😊😊
WOw. If all companies could be as honest and transparent as yours, the retail space would be unbelievably changed. I always love how much I learn watching your videos, and this one was no exception. Great job solving your issue, great job letting the community know what happened, and your process of troubleshooting and fixing it.
Honestly didn't expect you to look into the my suggestion on the plastic part of the socket and the variance of the injection moulding process. Happy to see that you did find the issue in the end.
There are so many companies out there that need to watch videos like this. Not just for the particular product, but for the lesson to be learned in how to handle a product with a problem.
Thank you for being honest and transparent about the issue. Probably the best lesson i learned in the early days of being a business owner was that mistakes will happen at some point, but what sets a great business apart from the rest is how you handle the aftermath. Im looking at building my 3rd PC here in a couple months, so direct die is probably still a little too advanced for me, but if i do go that way, your waterblock would be at the top of my list.
It's refreshing to see all this transparency and openness about the development process which is both entertaining and highly educational. Thank you very much for these videos
I have immense respect and admiration for the example you've just set for honesty and transparency in this industry - and all industries for that matter. Admitting to mistakes and explaining how they’ve improved is truly a game-changer and I cannot praise this act enough! In the realm of PC enthusiasts, this level of transparency can set you apart from all others, as it’s virtually nonexistent even among the top companies whom we've paid premium prices to for decades. The fact that this is a young company makes their commitment to openness even more commendable. Using UA-cam as a platform to share this honesty and communicate your dedication to doing things right and improving along the way is absolutely golden. Just knowing that our money is being spent on a company with class, makes me filled with joy, it's like all anyone has ever wanted. Exceptional work and a shining example for others to follow. Truly inspiring! Well done!
Love the transparency. I lament that your integrity isnt the norm, despite good positive examples. Example: 1982, Tylenol cynide scare. How the company handled that extreme crisis is how we got Tamper Evident seals on food and such. Crazy tonthink about that, before 1983 bottles any almost anything was just open for the public to mess with and put back on the shelf. Much like before 1976, how car seat belts were very much optional... These are lessons that had to be learned the hard way, and they became public bare minimums because of someone somewhere being appropriately Transpart...
An amazing video. You are one of the few who could turn a calamity into an interesting video which explains a manufacturing process so most can understand. Your determination for product perfection shows as well. I might not be able to justify the purchase of your products BUT they are up there with, if not the best, products on the planet in their field. Thank you for the video. Terry from Australia.
Good to hear you've resolved the issue with the water block. Sounds like a lot of hair pulling and head scratching was involved but, with good results in the end.
I understand that this situation can be expensive for any manufacturer... but Der8auer here makes it look too easy for a company to say, "Yeah we fekt up. Here's what happened, here's what we're doing about it." Many applauds. P.S. Im still going to shop Thermal Grizzly. Those graphene thermal pads are priceless. As long as i know the cpu and cooler are installed properly, I don't have to go back and trouble shoot thermal issues. (Then again I've only helped people not comfortable messing with the components.)
Excellent example of how to deal with problems, openly and honestly. A lot of larger companies could learn a thing or two from this. Great work as always dude 👍🏻
I was hoping to hear an update on how your investigations into the reported issue turned out - and here it is! Thanks kindly :) Really enjoyed you going into the grisly detail - I learned a lot from that and it was quite interesting, much appreciated! 👍
This is how every company should treat customer complaints, amazing job being transparent and letting the people know what's going on, Thermal Grizzly 4 Life !
The mirror finish doesn't last though. It scratches easily when mounting and gets worse and worse after each installation so the more diffuse plating is an advantage imo. I prefer that texture anyways on coolers.
Keep up with the material info please, I love it. I was only researching how to nickle plate the other week, was interested and then this..... Thanks for the comprehensive description.
Considering I am never going to delid my CPU, I actually watched the video and learnt something. A breath of fresh air to see a company reacting and communicating to the consumer. Just hope not too many lost a processor testing for you :)
Love the way you run your business man! My block is coming tomorrow and very much looking forward to installing it. It will be replacing an IceMan DD but I'm more than happy supporting a company like TG when they come out with products like this
More companies like you guys. Actually, all companies like you guys! Congratz for the transparency and honesty and pretty happy to see that now is solved and running again. If I could i would buy this no doubt about it! But maybe in the future. Wish you guys all the best! 💯
I'll be interested in your water block for the new arrow lake especially after evolving past your growing pains, and your transparency with your company is unheard of in todays corporate environment. Thanks for the update
A company that will exhibit this level of honesty and transparency to its customer base without being coerced is rarer than jewels these days, and more valuable as well.
I was already considering Thermal Grizzly for my next build but after this I'm 100% choosing them. Just incredible integrity, and transparency into their process.
If literally any other company had this kind of miscalculation, the response would have been radically different and the customer would be left holding the bag. Great job!
@der8auer-en with all r&d costs on the way to the market (not even talking about pullback after and 2nd release) does your company even makes anything on those blocks (alone, without other thermalG lineup) or are they more like a showcase of a fun project?
Talking about liquid metal on copper, it all comes down to discoloration. In Sept 2014 i bought some grams of certified pure gallium from a german lab on ebay. It came solid, i then liquified it with an hair dryer (!) and, with an insulin syringe, i collected it. I then applied the pure gallium on an old LAPPED Intel E6750 using its stock intel cooler. It's still perfectly working on the current date, same temps, as the beginning. Gallium eats aluminium, that's for sure, but it basically has no effects on copper. Discoloration is just a pure visual effect and it doesn't affect functionality. I know that, being on your side, visual differences can affect the RMA rate (mostly because most buyers don't know what they're dealing with), but from a technical standpoint keeping the pure copper finish is the best option.
Yup, I've had LM applied to an IHS and EK block for about 5 years now, both of which had the nickel coating sanded off. Haven't had to change the LM, and performance is still great. I'm not currently running the overclock I did at the time so I can't directly compare to initial temps, but at stock settings I have max core temps of 31 °C idle and 50 °C with Prime95.
THIS is how you run a company, and the extra steps to show us, the public, what’s what when you didn’t have to, is why when it comes to certain products I will only buy Thermal Grizzly 🖖🏼
Excellence all around - of course, I read it all as it was going down on the forums, so I was spoiled, but the story behind all that is interesting indeed.
Not only are you big enough to admit your mistakes but you learn improve and make a better product, I can think of a lot of big companies that can learn a lot from your example
Maybe it's a stupid idea, but you can easily test that... if the nickel reduces the performance so much (because of the small surface with direct die) would it be better to have a copper cooler and use regular thermal paste? I would love to see that tested...
Came for the honesty. Left with an eduction.
Here's some more....*education. 😂
Study English.
Why nickel plate the inside??
@@tavi7I don't think you can nickel plate only one side or one part of the structure
True... True.
this level of transparancy should be the norm
100%. If this was any other company with no explanation, I would never consider buying another product from them, however, with this transparent explanation, showing the cause and the corrective measures, I've been retained as a customer. A++++, I agree, this should be the norm.
Another great example of transparency is the Wooting group that makes keyboards. Everything is crystally transparent with them.
Being transparent about any issues is always a plus. Well done.
But still, not properly testing final product before shipping it to customers, that's kind of lame.
Btw. I'd prefer using rubber for a pressure ring around CPU. I'd not be surprised if using radius instead of chamfer is going to only delay when CPU's get damaged by this direct die cooler.
Companies will always have an issue with a faulty product at one point. He did not want to ship a faulty product.
@@joestock732 But he did. That's literally what this garbage vlog video is about.
@@mr.number9279 You're missing the point. Everybody makes mistakes, but only some can deal with them in a way, which makes most of customers satisfied.
@@mr.number9279what a garbage response. As a company they did everything right, took the product of the market, reimbursed effected customers and never blamed anybody but themselves. They made a mistake resulting in bringing a bad product to the market, but did everything right after that and learned a lesson. That alone is rare these days, let alone being open about it.
An honest man/company admits its mistake and improves it, but above all communicates it to users. This creates a reliable and good relationship between the customer and the manufacturer. I appreciate this kind of thinking, which unfortunately is used in few companies.
THIS!!! I wish MORE companies were THIS transparent!
@@AnCapGamer especially Intel with their RMA policy regarding readability of markings on 13rd and 14th gen IHS. My 13900ks is impacted by the voltage gate due to their first microcodes that slowly killed burning the chips, and my RMA was refused because of that.... 😢
I was hopefull because once I received back the cpu, and after a thoroughly cleaning process of the remaining LM residue taints, the batch number was readable again. So I sent them photos of the cleaned IHS were markings were now back to live, confident that Intel will review their decision, but they said :
"Following the response received from the higher level team, we regret to inform you that we cannot pursue your warranty claim for your processor. Your processor warranty is voided because the markings on the processor are not readable.
The decision being final, this file will soon be closed. If you have further questions regarding other Intel products, please do not hesitate to contact us.
We wish you a pleasant day!"
I'm sick guys 🤕🤮🤯
Yeah really great i wished more company would be so honest, sadly i know from experience that other companies like to keep faulty stuff secret form the customer or even just keep selling known faulty stuff.
TG: We have our own CNC machines, that’s the smart thing to do.
EK:…………..Oh dam!🤦♂️
Well, they USED to be profitable, now they can't pay their employees so...yeah.
Hahaha!!!!!
laughing so hard to this one
😂
@@Dan-Simms When one arm of the business does custom or industrial type stuff and you are also ever expanding in breadth towards low volume products in consumer market, you've got to have some capacity in house, it just makes sense. Plus i can't even imagine running a dynamic manufacturing business where you need to react to things being released on a day by day basis without having a reasonably equipped in-house prototyping workshop, like that's mad.
OK you are smart fellow. Start making a full line of CPU blocks under your brand. I am not buying EK junk !
we're working on it :)
@@der8auer-en looking forward to an AM5 cpu block :)
This might be a tall order but gpu blocks? is that on the cards?
They very recently hired someone who knows a thing or two about these, so I imagine they are working on things. 😁😎
@@der8auer-en noice!!
And some of us want RGB
One massive learning curve right there. Skillfully & excellently handled by all involved. Great outcome though. Thanks!
thanks. The previous 1-2 years were crazy in this regard. A lot of mistakes but we learned from them and for the next blocks for 1851 it should be much better right from the start :)
Well done for taking on Joe Robey - I hope he serves you well as an employee, and that he finds value and fulfilment in his new position at Thermal Grizzly.
Thank you for your continued honesty and transparency in this video - keep up the good work!
thanks a lot :)
@@der8auer-enwhy do you have to nickel plate the inside as well? Is the liquid bad for the copper?
@@tavi7 If there is a mix of copper and aluminum in the cooling loop that can cause galvanic corrosion, so manufacturers will typically plate blocks with nickel to avoid this issue.
@@cristianvasiliu9025except it doesn't. There's nothing that will prevent aluminum from causing galvanic corrosion in a loop, some things that will help:
1. Properly formulated coolant. (Film forming + buffering)
2. Electrically isolate all parts so there's no conductor to form a full galvanic cell.
@@JohnDoe-c2f isnt the point of the coating to isolate it from the loop though, meaning it effectively isnt in the loop? am i missing something, it seems like fully isolating it will prevent it from causing galvanic corrosion
I love that you preferred the higher performance over the visuals for the nickel plating. I cant speak for everyone, but if you're buying thermal grizzly, I think you have the same priorities
Not to mention that once it's installed, you won't ever see the bottom of the cold plate where the nickel plating is anyway.
sure, have it being naked copper.... then what about liquid metal?
@@wimpyhugz_TGK There is a reason why the coolers get plated, it´s for the looks.
@@kurok1tenshi Nah the reason they get plated is for corrosion resistance towards the liquid metal lol
@@kurok1tenshi aesthetics are a secondary reason. Corrosion/oxidisation protection is the main reason since copper will slowly form a green patina even when exposed to air
People generally don’t have too many issues with faulty products…. It’s how the business / manufacturer deals with the situation which garners respect and support from customers 🥰💪😇👍
I don't know how you don't have issue with that. It's supposed to be premium product considering price compared to other products but they didn't even bother to test it before selling it...
I disagree, people have issues with faulty products. I would be pretty pissed if I did a lot of work replacing the spark plugs of my car only to find it defective, it’s a similar case with a really expensive CPU block that requires a lot of work to assemble. If the company behind it responds well, it lessens the anger for sure, but if I’m paying a lot of money for quality, I would be pretty angry if I didn’t receive quality
Yeah this is just not true. The average user absolutely has a problem with faulty products, and they should. The companies response just determines how severe their reaction is.
@@Ali-sf7kc Its a bot so don't try to make sense of that.YTB is full of them for "engagement" or some nefarious social engineering BS like that.
4:55 "stretch it a little bit, and then we can definitely see a difference"
Whoa, that looked so sweet and makes it super clear what's going on! Great footage.
That's what she said.
This behavior right here is precisely why I never hesitate to choose Thermal Grizzly over other brands. This was a very informative video. Keep up the great work!
Honestly this exactly. Be it thermal compound or my next block, even if it's overkill for my use case at a time, I will still gladly support TG over many others.
@@LauriHuu Same here 😂
At minimum Kryonaut for everything.
@@travisholt92 Definitely
There's an expression "It’s not rocket science".
This story shows two things.
Firstly, a lot of things ARE rocket science.
Secondly, there's a difference between science and engineering.
Engineering is finding out how all the science interacts in practise, and fixing it.
Something Boeing has been finding out recently.
This comment is underrated and poignant.
The funny thing is, rocketry *science* is arguably remarkably simple. Does this fuel do ΔV pretty good? Cool. Also, rocket science isn't like really a thing, I don't think? It's a bunch of different sciences that don't really have much to do with each other in terms of the science.
Rocketry *engineering* is a nightmare field filled with the most brilliant and stressed out minds on the planet, because messing that up leads to huge amounts of wasted work, material, and sometimes life.
Boeing already knows this. Boeings' corruption just finally turned inward. You can't out engineer corrupt management.
Boeing made a childish mistake in working with composite materials, from an engineering point of view. Any engineer who worked with composites would have been able to see these obvious stress points where the composite could begin to delaminate. It is doubtful that they did not know about this flaw at the design stage, most likely they did it to reduce the cost of production, considering this flaw insignificant. There is no crime that business will not make for the sake of super profits.
Absolute masterclass in PR and damage control. Something many companies across the globe could learn from. Keep doing what you're doing Roman!
Development is so expensive. I am amazed you are able to handle the difficulties and expense with a calm demeanor. Bravo. I am buying after this new revision is available. So many companies short-cut their way to profit. You have built one more loyal customer.
Actually really cool the common understanding of “the nickel is so thin it should have negligible impact” still holds true, but when you’re at the bleeding edge these things start to matter significantly
With things like PBO/2 & auto overclocking even 2C can give more performance these days. I'm all for a rear fan behind the motherboard behind the socket because of it
Bleeding edge LOL. Your lack of education does not change the complexity of the world around you. What they are attempting is far from new, and not difficult... Until you violate the rule of perception vs complexity.
Coatings are notorious for causing issues like this. Been a recurring issue for possibly over 100 years.
If you look on any high tech coating manufacturers website they go into great detail about how it affects tolerances.
This being amorphous is also bad for conductivity, see the recent @nilered video about him making amorphous metal glass in his ATOMIC TRAMPOLINE video (if you have the hour to spare). He talks about how bad the amorphous metal is at conducting heat. He's trying to arc-blast it and it won't melt LOL I think the nickel plating being amorphous is bad for conductivity.
@@nikonmikon8915yeah they found out the hard way the electroplating was superior
Your education makes me want to purchase your products even more, even though previous product had issues. Want to support businesses that deserve it.
I really appreciate the honesty, hard work in identifying the issue and the transparent video explaining everything…….. That being said, I am a purchaser of an am5 heatspreader in mid-July and am slightly disappointed after I contacted TG in hopes of an exchange or discount and wasn’t told I could do so as it was from a different vendor that did the coating. However, it now says on the website that the new coating gives up to 5C temp difference. I do like the product but it was interesting to learn the testing is done before the coating which leaves me doubt in the gains in lower temps I receive from my heatspreader. Again, I like the product and will probably purchase the new version but am a little disappointed that this came to light right after my purchase.
Bravo. Seriously, you followed up, you improved the end result, you resolved the issue, AND you were transparent about it.
Yeah performance is much more important than appearance.
I worked for VW, Porsche/Audi for thirteen years as a tech (diagnostician) and all the German engineers were just like this guy, smart, thorough, but in their case very hard headed. You had to prove every suggestion/idea completely and I learned a lot working with them. They were some of the smartest people on the planet and it was both energetic and aggravating interacting with them. I'm 73 now and it was a long time ago but my time spent here reminds me of that era.
I never made it to Wolfsburg...
especially when the appearance part is hidden beneath the black top block. It will never be seen again.
I wonder if that still holds true. I mean sure engineers are going to be as sharp as ever, but the deciding entities on everything is upper and middle managment which majorly does not come from engineering background. This is how we got the emissions scandal and a lot of other things.
When applying chrome to steel, you must first copper plate, then nickel plate, then chrome plate.
I understand the boundary layers, but I did not think about the impact on thermals till now. I am just a Mechanic and tech enthusiast.
Excellent work, Roman. Your transparency is greatly appreciated, and it is something lacking in this day and age. Maybe GN will do a video on Thermal Grizzly. A positive one, of course! Have a great day, Sir! o7
One of my engineering mentors pointed out that whether it's construction or manufacturing, issues and irregularities are almost always found at interfaces
You should find out what hard chrome plating is then revise your statement about must.
It must have been frustrating for both you and the customers to hear that the water block was not doing its job. But your reaction to quickly remove the product from purchase shows that you are an honest bunch and are willing to do the right thing
Besides the technical stuff about water cooling that was taught in this video, there's another very important teaching point that other companies really need to hear: Customers EXPECT companies to make mistakes. It's how they recover from them that matters from a customer's viewpoint. THIS is the proper way to recover. Fully transparent, nothing but the truth, and a full explanation that regains/retains customer faith in the company.
EVERY company out there should watch this video.
Best way to handle issues. Gives me every confidence moving forward to keep using TG products. Thanks for sharing Roman.
Most companies is not this open, honest and direct *internally*.
I see everybody is saying what I am about to, so add me to the list.
You have a level of transparency that others should look up to. Not only did you talk about your mistake, but you actually explained, IN DETAIL, why it happened and how to avoid it.
I'm calling this educational transparency. If every company did this our technology would develope so friggin fast. The greed is crippling advancement.
I applaud you, sir! You have taught me a few things. And at least one of those things has nothing to do with computers, metal, or technology. Thank you!
This is how every company should address situations like these. Well done.
The way these issues have been dealt with should be an industry standard! Great job and well dealt with. ❤
And this is where other companies keep going wrong. If there is an issue, find the "why" and tell people what was going on. Thank you for being open and honest about what you found, this is how you build a firm base of trust!
highest level of integrity. your instruction and explanation was very well done allowing those of us without a chemical engineering degree to grasp the concept of what went wrong. thank you, roman. great job!
Really cool of you guys to share the journey like this. For everyone to learn and understand. I'll never go direct-die myself, but it's great to know the care and transparency I can expect from Thermal Grizzly.
This is not just about honesty. This is also about engineering. Understanding heat transfer and metallurgy, machining and contact pressure, and crafting all of that knowledge into a working product. I particularly like the approach of "performance first" - it isn't that appearance does not matter, but given I have no RGB (don't want to be distracted when gaming) and nobody can even SEE any of those shiny surfaces once the block is installed, I have absolutely no problem with how it looks. "Satin" is also a trendy finish, sometimes preferred over "mirror" anyway.
I'm quite sure no other "tech" PC youtube channel could even attempt to discuss any of this detail, never mind do it in a second language. Great job.
I do have one reservation though: replacing the chamfer with a radius does indeed remove a sharp edge with a gradual fade out of contact. BUT that contact pressure ring still looks too narrow, and particularly ceasing while still much too far from the edge of the PCB. All of the pressure from pins outboard of the last contact area is pressing upwards, and concentrating that contact force at that edge, whether sharp or radiused.
I would be seeking to absolutely maximise the width of that contact ring, pushing it as close to the plastic as possible. Ideally, touching ALL of the PCB wherever possible. That way, the pin pressure will press the PCB up against the block everywhere, and flatness (or rather, bending) will cease to be an issue.
Note too that the chamfer and radius both reduce the area of contact, which exacerbates the local contact pressure at the edge of the raised surface, regardless of the finishing machining there.
the troubles I see are: with bringing it further to the edge is that it'll come into contact with the SMDs and probe points - it's already pretty close on the chips shown, and those aren't the *900ks which will have more SMDs; making the rim too wide would cause it to want to bow underneath the relatively large & fragile chip as well, which is already under pressure, and could cause the chip's underneath contacts/protective side-coating/the chip itself to be compromised from the inherant unevenness of the mounting process
respectfully to derbauer, there shouldnt be any contact with pcb at all - the block should only contact the exposed core. any tensioning/torsioning issues should be mitigated by a bolted-thru metal backplate with metal thumbscrews atop industrial grade springs alone, not physical pressure on a soft pcb.
warpage bad enough to sever traces may be delayed by rounding the 'pressure ring' edge, but not prevented. in the beginning of the vid its stated that it was designed to *counteract* pcb deformation; imo this is clear evidence that the mounting solution itself needs to be more carefully redesigned (in terms of mathematical calculation of pressure and the angles of its distribution)
I'm an NDT L2 tech and I got to say I love how you dissect problems.
Ive been overclocking since I was a child with 486 dx4 changing those pins and man its nice to have aaallll this info in here. Thank you.
Well here's to hoping that someday you figure out what specifications mean. Do you also cut in lines too? I'm just trying to establish a pattern of behavior with you.
Love the transparency and breaking down everything that happened and what went wrong. There's basically no company with the courage to do this, and I gotta respect it when I see it.
if every component maker would be that honest and precise. hats off 🙂👍
the transparency about what works what goes wrong and where possible fault lies lead to confidence. Right now my system is running fine and I do not need a new water block but with this report you have gained a future customer.
@viperpit-lr2rp absolutely. Also as a brit living in china i have been using thermal grizzly thermal paste for my last 4 builds and even the paste coms with a scan code that links to an online data base to confirm authenticity. Such lengths made by the company to ensure that customers get what they pay for is above and beyond what the majority of other companies do. I also subscribed to the channel a long time ago and even saw how he handled issues in the past. My reference to a water block is simply that it is a product i have yet to purchase from them. so both a returning but also new product customer.
This was an academic study. You are perfect.
Perfect? Parasocial much?
Absolutely love how you shared your experience, as a manufacturer, with us. It was a very informative and interesting watch! You certainly have garnered my respect. Best regards
Unexpected engineering problems and process of finding their solutions are some of my favorite types of videos. Thank you and keep up the excellent work der8auer team.
now this is how you run a company. i will defo be buying one of your AM5 coolers
Derbauer has come to save the day! EKWB is going under due to their poor management to say the least and Thermal Grizzly is taking their spot. Lets hope they start making Radiators and pumps too, too many other companies that are out to screw people over to make better margins, Corsir.
I wouldn’t exactly say that TG ”is taking their spot”, the company is still pretty small and specializes in certain products. Watercool in other hand is a german manufacturer that has been in the watercooling market for a really long time. I still wouldn’t say that they’re taking any spots either though. Most of the known pumps like D5 and DDC are made by Xylem and simply rebranded for Watercool, EK, Corsair etc. I personally think that Corsair pricing is actually decent for their radiators which are made by HWL and I like their hard tubing.
This right here is why I buy TG products. They may be a bit more expensive than their competitors but you know there's _integrity_, and transparency in the company. They stand behind their products, which is a rare thing to come by these days.
Thanks for not simply chasing the almighty Euro/Dollar Roman!
I like how much thought you put in the design of those blocks, it really shows that you and your company care about your customers. I just wish you had those blocks in clear acrylic top version.
Great job, finding the problem and fixing it while keeping customers in the loop and happy.
A few other companies should be taking notes, but I doubt they will.
I had no idea who you were when I bought my Lian Li O11 Dynamic XL, which I still love BTW. Now it's kind of funny watching your videos with a little plaque visible inside my case with your name on it. I hope you create a version of your direct die block for AM5. That's my next build and I want to go nuts with it.
Public statements and transparency like this and my experiences with your support are why I use your blocks. The old mycro blocks were good, just ordered a new AMD pro block. Looking forwards to it.
It seems that the microscopic level of detail was absolutely key to both understanding and improving the process/performance issues. Glad you know what to do with future projects.😊😊
WOw. If all companies could be as honest and transparent as yours, the retail space would be unbelievably changed. I always love how much I learn watching your videos, and this one was no exception. Great job solving your issue, great job letting the community know what happened, and your process of troubleshooting and fixing it.
Honestly didn't expect you to look into the my suggestion on the plastic part of the socket and the variance of the injection moulding process. Happy to see that you did find the issue in the end.
Respect for bringing it on your channel. That's quality, that's confidence at a CEO level. There are others in PC land. Thanks Roman.
There are so many companies out there that need to watch videos like this. Not just for the particular product, but for the lesson to be learned in how to handle a product with a problem.
Roman you are amazing. No other company would have given this information to the end users.
Thank you for being honest and transparent about the issue. Probably the best lesson i learned in the early days of being a business owner was that mistakes will happen at some point, but what sets a great business apart from the rest is how you handle the aftermath. Im looking at building my 3rd PC here in a couple months, so direct die is probably still a little too advanced for me, but if i do go that way, your waterblock would be at the top of my list.
It's refreshing to see all this transparency and openness about the development process which is both entertaining and highly educational. Thank you very much for these videos
I have immense respect and admiration for the example you've just set for honesty and transparency in this industry - and all industries for that matter. Admitting to mistakes and explaining how they’ve improved is truly a game-changer and I cannot praise this act enough! In the realm of PC enthusiasts, this level of transparency can set you apart from all others, as it’s virtually nonexistent even among the top companies whom we've paid premium prices to for decades.
The fact that this is a young company makes their commitment to openness even more commendable. Using UA-cam as a platform to share this honesty and communicate your dedication to doing things right and improving along the way is absolutely golden. Just knowing that our money is being spent on a company with class, makes me filled with joy, it's like all anyone has ever wanted. Exceptional work and a shining example for others to follow. Truly inspiring! Well done!
Such transparency is remarkable, particularly because it involves educating competitors on how to improve simultaneously.
we are so lucky to have you in this industry ! thank you
It's fascinating to hear the defect investigation process and SO refreshing to have 100% transparency from a supplier!
Transparency and integrity, and results above beauty, we need more engineers and company with this above and beyond anything
Eagerly waiting for a full copper / copper brass block from you ❤
I love the attitude you are running your company with. This should be the standard.
Love the transparency.
I lament that your integrity isnt the norm, despite good positive examples.
Example: 1982, Tylenol cynide scare. How the company handled that extreme crisis is how we got Tamper Evident seals on food and such. Crazy tonthink about that, before 1983 bottles any almost anything was just open for the public to mess with and put back on the shelf. Much like before 1976, how car seat belts were very much optional... These are lessons that had to be learned the hard way, and they became public bare minimums because of someone somewhere being appropriately Transpart...
An amazing video. You are one of the few who could turn a calamity into an interesting video which explains a manufacturing process so most can understand. Your determination for product perfection shows as well. I might not be able to justify the purchase of your products BUT they are up there with, if not the best, products on the planet in their field.
Thank you for the video.
Terry from Australia.
It's so refreshing to see transparency from a company! Keep up the honesty and accountability, and you'll have me as a customer! ❤
Good to hear you've resolved the issue with the water block. Sounds like a lot of hair pulling and head scratching was involved but, with good results in the end.
I understand that this situation can be expensive for any manufacturer... but Der8auer here makes it look too easy for a company to say, "Yeah we fekt up. Here's what happened, here's what we're doing about it."
Many applauds. P.S. Im still going to shop Thermal Grizzly. Those graphene thermal pads are priceless. As long as i know the cpu and cooler are installed properly, I don't have to go back and trouble shoot thermal issues. (Then again I've only helped people not comfortable messing with the components.)
Excellent example of how to deal with problems, openly and honestly. A lot of larger companies could learn a thing or two from this.
Great work as always dude 👍🏻
I was hoping to hear an update on how your investigations into the reported issue turned out - and here it is! Thanks kindly :)
Really enjoyed you going into the grisly detail - I learned a lot from that and it was quite interesting, much appreciated! 👍
Finally , i got 2 of those and tested with 13-900K, temps were awesome. Next week i will test on 14-900KS. Thank you for making awesome products. !
This is how every company should treat customer complaints, amazing job being transparent and letting the people know what's going on, Thermal Grizzly 4 Life !
The mirror finish doesn't last though. It scratches easily when mounting and gets worse and worse after each installation so the more diffuse plating is an advantage imo. I prefer that texture anyways on coolers.
I really love when a company acknowledge its mistakes, improves on it and goes for peer review of the product.
Thats the scientific way
I hope you never go out of business man. Haven't seen any other with this kind of content. Thank you for your honesty and commendable ethics.
Thanks again for your honesty and commitment to excellence. There are a lot of tech companies that need to learn from you.
Always learn something new when he has something to talk about.
Also appreciate the transparency
You´re an example to the industry to follow ! Thanks.
Keep up with the material info please, I love it. I was only researching how to nickle plate the other week, was interested and then this..... Thanks for the comprehensive description.
This is why people trust you Roman, good honest and admit your errors. Well done sir. Thermal Grizzly is a top company
Considering I am never going to delid my CPU, I actually watched the video and learnt something. A breath of fresh air to see a company reacting and communicating to the consumer. Just hope not too many lost a processor testing for you :)
I'm no longer into building PCs but I actually enjoy listening to problem solving. This is professionalism at its very finest. 🎩
Love the way you run your business man! My block is coming tomorrow and very much looking forward to installing it. It will be replacing an IceMan DD but I'm more than happy supporting a company like TG when they come out with products like this
Great video, good to see such technical topics get discussed.
More companies like you guys. Actually, all companies like you guys! Congratz for the transparency and honesty and pretty happy to see that now is solved and running again. If I could i would buy this no doubt about it! But maybe in the future. Wish you guys all the best! 💯
I've been a customer in the past, and will definitely be buying from your company again based on this level of transparency.
Transparency builds confidence with consumers.
I'll be interested in your water block for the new arrow lake especially after evolving past your growing pains, and your transparency with your company is unheard of in todays corporate environment. Thanks for the update
"it's never too late to learn" 🤝
A company that will exhibit this level of honesty and transparency to its customer base without being coerced is rarer than jewels these days, and more valuable as well.
I was already considering Thermal Grizzly for my next build but after this I'm 100% choosing them. Just incredible integrity, and transparency into their process.
If literally any other company had this kind of miscalculation, the response would have been radically different and the customer would be left holding the bag. Great job!
Other companies need to take notes. Instead of convincing me not to buy your products, this response makes me want to support your company more.
EKWB and co should take note, that's what accountability looks like, thank you for your honesty.
Love the in-depth explanation and the solutions, it's fascinating!
@der8auer-en with all r&d costs on the way to the market (not even talking about pullback after and 2nd release) does your company even makes anything on those blocks (alone, without other thermalG lineup) or are they more like a showcase of a fun project?
Talking about liquid metal on copper, it all comes down to discoloration.
In Sept 2014 i bought some grams of certified pure gallium from a german lab on ebay. It came solid, i then liquified it with an hair dryer (!) and, with an insulin syringe, i collected it.
I then applied the pure gallium on an old LAPPED Intel E6750 using its stock intel cooler.
It's still perfectly working on the current date, same temps, as the beginning.
Gallium eats aluminium, that's for sure, but it basically has no effects on copper. Discoloration is just a pure visual effect and it doesn't affect functionality.
I know that, being on your side, visual differences can affect the RMA rate (mostly because most buyers don't know what they're dealing with), but from a technical standpoint keeping the pure copper finish is the best option.
Yup, I've had LM applied to an IHS and EK block for about 5 years now, both of which had the nickel coating sanded off. Haven't had to change the LM, and performance is still great. I'm not currently running the overclock I did at the time so I can't directly compare to initial temps, but at stock settings I have max core temps of 31 °C idle and 50 °C with Prime95.
THIS is how you run a company, and the extra steps to show us, the public, what’s what when you didn’t have to, is why when it comes to certain products I will only buy Thermal Grizzly 🖖🏼
Honest and educationial video, beautiful, such a rare thing these days !
Love your honesty and transparancy,
just wish so many more take that as the norm so we all be able to enjoy more tech in the world
Excellence all around - of course, I read it all as it was going down on the forums, so I was spoiled, but the story behind all that is interesting indeed.
Not only are you big enough to admit your mistakes but you learn improve and make a better product, I can think of a lot of big companies that can learn a lot from your example
Maybe it's a stupid idea, but you can easily test that... if the nickel reduces the performance so much (because of the small surface with direct die) would it be better to have a copper cooler and use regular thermal paste? I would love to see that tested...