The Book of the Long Sun and the Book of the Short Sun are two interconnected stories set in the same universe. They are connected via themes but not storywise. The Urth of the New Sun alone is the continuation and conclusion of the New Sun story.
This is a series that might be best tackled with encouragement. Also, I think it’s helpful to know that just about everyone feels lost when first reading it. All the best, Angela!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy That's very true. Encouragement, a good Latin-English dictionary, and more time to read would increase my chances with this enormously. 😁
I first read Book of the New Sun when I was maybe 14 and it’s impossible to understate how massively it affected me, not just in its mind-expanding strangeness, but also it was the first time I’d properly engaged with literary constructs like the unreliable narrator. It blew my mind how I seemed to be reading such a different book when I read it the second time. The whole course of my media consumption, the kinds of things I like to read and watch and think about (and so, consequently, the things that are in my head and the ideas that I have and the way I think those ideas, even) was shifted quite dramatically by - kind of randomly - encountering this book. I haven’t reread it for probably 25 years or more, despite it being such a favourite. I think this video has prompted one in the very near future, though. I’d love to hear this same group’s thoughts on Wolfe’s Soldier books which I always found somewhat complementary to BotNS in the theme of memory’s contribution to the self. Instead of a Funes the Memorious type eidet* like Severian, the narrator - a soldier in 5th century BC Greece - has no long term memory at all after an injury and so must keep a diary, which of course becomes the book we read, as a sort of external memory. *I don’t think eidet is a word, it sounded good though.
Just saw this. So damn excited to hear this conversation. Just starting to read Shadow of the Torturer. Nice to see BookTube collabs from learned fantasy readers like this. This should give me extra motivation to read the whole series.
Glad we finally reached the end. Great duscussion and I know I learned a lot from talking with you and Jared, since you each caught things that slipped past me. “[Philip], you will walk no more with me. It is time we both take up our lives.” ;)
Watching again, and to throw in another bit on religion: as a Buddhist, I was struck by the paragraph in chapter XXXI, the sand garden, that starts with “What struck me on the beach…” It is such an excellent description of what I at least imagine enlightenment to be. I’m not silly enough to claim Buddhism owns that kind of realisation - I guess it’s the universal ultimate mystic experience: that everything is holy, which simultaneously means that holiness is “normal”, so everything is equally holy and nothing is more special than anything else. What a writer. 😍
I will have to come back to this once I’ve read more. I recently finished the first book and felt a bit discouraged to continue. I enjoyed it, but felt like not much happened and the prose felt like solving a math equation at times. I’m sure a TON just went right over my head. I’m hoping the second book draws me in a bit more.
A ton went over my head too, I have no doubt. There were enough glimpses to keep me interested. The thing that I feel is important to convey is that it's a story that is fascinating for its thematic explorations and ideas, but it's different from most genre fiction in that it's not a character-driven or plot-driven story, which can throw a lot of people, I think. I hope book two will prove more engaging for you!
One of the greatest things I owe Wolfe is discovering your channel, as well as Jared's and Matt's! After starting the Book of The New Sun, I looked up discussions about his works, and boom, my mind was blown! Thank you for the fun discussions and deep insights! Side irrelevant idea: I wonder if you could someday start a fun chain writing club/project for fans and friends interested in fantasy fiction. I think it might be a lot of fun!
Thank you for the kind words, and I’m glad you found some discussions to supplement your experience with BOTNS. What a great idea for the chain writing project! All the best!
Excellent discussion guys. One of the story moments that has stuck with me is a section where Wolfe explores a somewhat mainstream spiritual idea that "all roads lead to the same place", and I think for those of us who feel quite drawn to that viewpoint are, in fact, challenged. He essentially says, why would all spiritual roads lead to the same place when in the physical realm, all roads clearly don't lead to the same place. I don't recall which section of the book this came from, but it's stuck with me and I believe Wolfe's own spiritual convictions probably led to inserting that piece of the story. Also, everyone who watches this video gets +3 Intelligence in real life Dungeons & Dragons :)
Ha ha! +3 intelligence points would have been handy for me while reading BOTNS! As one of those who does believe that various spiritual traditions are groping for similar truths with different languages, I’m intrigued by Wolfe’s dedication to his faith. Cheers, Brian!
I am pretty sure I will try out Urth of the New Sun someday, Jeroen. Whether it clarifies things or confuses them for me remains to be seen, but I'm sure it will be interesting. Cheers!
Insightful, excellent discussion, as expected. 🙂 Sooooo sorry to have missed this guys. So when are we doing Urth of the New Sun? 😉 Behind our efforts you will find our efforts!
I recently finished BotNS for the first time, I was blown away, it’s astonishing. Like Moby Dick or Joyce, it rewards a close reading and perseverance.
I really loved the Book of the New Sun (I have much more ambivalent feelings about Urth though). Would anyone recommend R Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy?
Bakker is a brilliant writer, so I would highly recommend Prince of Nothing with the warning that it’s incredibly bleak and, at times, disturbing (deliberately so).
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Cool, thanks. How does it compare with BotNS thematically, stylistically, conceptually? I've seen the Prince of Nothing described as philosophical and dense, and it also looks like it deals with religious themes, although maybe from a different angle than BotNS.
@@foodchewer It’s centered on a holy war that resembles the First Crusade, but in a fantasy setting. It is definitely rich with themes, including the question of free will (with the narrative strongly suggesting we don’t have as much as we think, if any), violence in a patriarchal world, and the perils of certainty. That said, while rich and complex, it’s easier to follow than BOTNS.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Ooooo it certainly does sound interesting, but I'm going through kind of a rough patch in my life right now so this series definitely might be too heavy, especially regarding the question of free will or lack thereof, a question which can keep me up at night on my best days. And to be honest, BotNS explores the question of free will quite a bit itself (there is a plan for Severian that has been in motion since the beginning...). Anyway, I think I'm just gonna work through the rest of the Solar Cycle for now, starting with the Book of the Long Sun. I have seen the light of Wolfe.
Keep in mind that BotN isn't simply a story told from a first-person pov. It's an autobiography written at a specific point in the author's life for a specific audience, which is not us .
Wolfe’s secret is his deep Catholic faith - the Christian mystery and transcendence is woven into his books in veiled ways. Like Scripture, Gene employs typology, layers and allusions within his stories; and there is always something happening between the words. New Sun and Moby Dick are probably the two greatest novels ever written. (Short Sun is Wolfe at his best though)
How do you recommend the series? The whole thing is 800 pages total. One other aspect is Wolfe as Korean war veteran. I can see Severian as a soldier now out of the service entering the world to find meaning. It is a series that demands to be reread. I found myself getting lost in the writing and missing the story, and vice versa. Wolfe tightly holds to first person so there is little overt exposition. Severian knows what he is talking about so why explain it? You don't have the 'default' medieval European based setting. Can you spoil the series? He tells you how it ends about page 50. But like certain other books, the ending reframes the beginning.
Excellent points, Eric. The beginning of Citadel of the Autarch is one of the most compelling statements I’ve ever read about war. I hope to reread this series someday. All the best!
Paul mentions Borges influenced Wolfe, Borges was also a fan of Olaf Stapledons last and first men. 1930. Which I’ve just started reading, which contrasts mans failure due to war to achieve spiritual and technological greatness. However I’m only about 50 pages in. And we’re still on earth
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy also, I have no proof of this, but mabey the lost world by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle might have been an influence here’s a quote “Fawcett wrote in his posthumously published memoirs: "Monsters from the dawn of Man's existence might still roam these heights unchallenged, imprisoned and protected by unscalable cliffs. So thought Conan Doyle when later in London I spoke of these hills and showed photographs of them. He mentioned an idea for a novel on Central South America and asked for information, which I told him I should be glad to supply. The fruit of it was his Lost World in 1912, appearing as a serial in the Strand Magazine, and subsequently in the form of a book that achieved widespread popularity."
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy also, I have no proof of this, but mabey the lost world by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle might also have been an influence, here’s a quote “Fawcett wrote in his posthumously published memoirs: "Monsters from the dawn of Man's existence might still roam these heights unchallenged, imprisoned and protected by unscalable cliffs. So thought Conan Doyle when later in London I spoke of these hills and showed photographs of them. He mentioned an idea for a novel on Central South America and asked for information, which I told him I should be glad to supply. The fruit of it was his Lost World in 1912, appearing as a serial in the Strand Magazine, and subsequently in the form of a book that achieved widespread popularity."
I agree with Jeroen and Rogue, Heidi. It seems like a lot (but not all) of the same people enjoy Malazan and BOTNS, and the two series share a penchant for ambiguity at times. Beyond that, they are very different experiences, I think. Malazan is much bigger and, for me, is a much more emotional experience. While it's sprawling, Malazan does have a plot that you can more or less figure out. While much shorter, BOTNS is very much, for me, an intellectual exercise where what little plot there is serves the thematic explorations.
But where's the drama, tensions, conflicts, thrills, mystery, morality, comedy, justice, personality, character, crime, scenery, fear, hypocrisy, betrayal, desire, etcetera? What is the plot? Ostensibly or actually? Am I supposed to suss it out because it exists independent of me? Does Wolfe hide his plot? Is that plot interesting? Alternatively is there no real plot, is it all pastiche. Like scenes of a hanging? I found these books boring. Not interesting enough to hold my attention. Full of content but no correlation. That is to say no sense of narrative coherence. The narrator is not "unreliable", he cannot correlate the contents of his experience. There is no strong sense of self, point of view from the sense of sentience. No personality with emotional investments in the things he's doing or experiencing. Description without explanation, justification.
While I didn’t find the books boring, I can’t say I disagree with you about the incoherence of the plot, at least on my first read. You’re also right about Severian’s emotional detachment as he narrates. Yet I still find myself wanting to return to this story someday to see if I can make more sense of it. There’s something about its stunning prose, the themes it explores, its unconventional nature, and, above all, the sense of mystery and wonder that pervades it, that I find compelling.
Man love hearing from all of you talk. Collaborations and sharing of knowledge and thoughts are what make booktube what it is
I feel exactly the same way. Cheers!
The Book of the Long Sun and the Book of the Short Sun are two interconnected stories set in the same universe. They are connected via themes but not storywise. The Urth of the New Sun alone is the continuation and conclusion of the New Sun story.
Thank you for the clarification!
Fascinating discussion, gents. Thank you for this.
I am so glad you enjoyed it, Herr Fireballs! I hope those migraines will give you a break soon!
I'm reading this in March, just wanted to drop a thank you and say I'm looking forward to watching this video then
My best wishes to you for the read, Andre!
I must go back to this series. But thank you for these discussions, Philip! I most likely would not have picked this up without them.
This is a series that might be best tackled with encouragement. Also, I think it’s helpful to know that just about everyone feels lost when first reading it. All the best, Angela!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy That's very true. Encouragement, a good Latin-English dictionary, and more time to read would increase my chances with this enormously. 😁
I first read Book of the New Sun when I was maybe 14 and it’s impossible to understate how massively it affected me, not just in its mind-expanding strangeness, but also it was the first time I’d properly engaged with literary constructs like the unreliable narrator. It blew my mind how I seemed to be reading such a different book when I read it the second time. The whole course of my media consumption, the kinds of things I like to read and watch and think about (and so, consequently, the things that are in my head and the ideas that I have and the way I think those ideas, even) was shifted quite dramatically by - kind of randomly - encountering this book. I haven’t reread it for probably 25 years or more, despite it being such a favourite. I think this video has prompted one in the very near future, though.
I’d love to hear this same group’s thoughts on Wolfe’s Soldier books which I always found somewhat complementary to BotNS in the theme of memory’s contribution to the self. Instead of a Funes the Memorious type eidet* like Severian, the narrator - a soldier in 5th century BC Greece - has no long term memory at all after an injury and so must keep a diary, which of course becomes the book we read, as a sort of external memory.
*I don’t think eidet is a word, it sounded good though.
The premise of the Soldier books sounds very cool. Thanks for telling me about them. Also, best wishes for that reread of BOTNS!
Just saw this. So damn excited to hear this conversation. Just starting to read Shadow of the Torturer. Nice to see BookTube collabs from learned fantasy readers like this. This should give me extra motivation to read the whole series.
I hope you’ll get a lot from the series!
Glad we finally reached the end. Great duscussion and I know I learned a lot from talking with you and Jared, since you each caught things that slipped past me.
“[Philip], you will walk no more with me. It is time we both take up our lives.” ;)
Thank you, Paul, for enriching my experience of this story so much! I appreciate your insights and your friendship!
Between that last video and this, I started and completed TBOTNS & Urth OTNS....so howw I have waited for this!
It sounds like you've really enjoyed the series -- fantastic!
I've been eagerly anticipating this video!
Thank you for watching!
Watching again, and to throw in another bit on religion: as a Buddhist, I was struck by the paragraph in chapter XXXI, the sand garden, that starts with “What struck me on the beach…” It is such an excellent description of what I at least imagine enlightenment to be. I’m not silly enough to claim Buddhism owns that kind of realisation - I guess it’s the universal ultimate mystic experience: that everything is holy, which simultaneously means that holiness is “normal”, so everything is equally holy and nothing is more special than anything else.
What a writer. 😍
“Holiness is normal” - I love that! Cheers, Matt!
I will have to come back to this once I’ve read more. I recently finished the first book and felt a bit discouraged to continue. I enjoyed it, but felt like not much happened and the prose felt like solving a math equation at times. I’m sure a TON just went right over my head. I’m hoping the second book draws me in a bit more.
A ton went over my head too, I have no doubt. There were enough glimpses to keep me interested. The thing that I feel is important to convey is that it's a story that is fascinating for its thematic explorations and ideas, but it's different from most genre fiction in that it's not a character-driven or plot-driven story, which can throw a lot of people, I think. I hope book two will prove more engaging for you!
One of the greatest things I owe Wolfe is discovering your channel, as well as Jared's and Matt's! After starting the Book of The New Sun, I looked up discussions about his works, and boom, my mind was blown! Thank you for the fun discussions and deep insights!
Side irrelevant idea: I wonder if you could someday start a fun chain writing club/project for fans and friends interested in fantasy fiction. I think it might be a lot of fun!
Thank you for the kind words, and I’m glad you found some discussions to supplement your experience with BOTNS. What a great idea for the chain writing project! All the best!
Excellent discussion guys. One of the story moments that has stuck with me is a section where Wolfe explores a somewhat mainstream spiritual idea that "all roads lead to the same place", and I think for those of us who feel quite drawn to that viewpoint are, in fact, challenged. He essentially says, why would all spiritual roads lead to the same place when in the physical realm, all roads clearly don't lead to the same place. I don't recall which section of the book this came from, but it's stuck with me and I believe Wolfe's own spiritual convictions probably led to inserting that piece of the story. Also, everyone who watches this video gets +3 Intelligence in real life Dungeons & Dragons :)
Ha ha! +3 intelligence points would have been handy for me while reading BOTNS! As one of those who does believe that various spiritual traditions are groping for similar truths with different languages, I’m intrigued by Wolfe’s dedication to his faith. Cheers, Brian!
Great discussion! Makes me want to read this again. I hope you will pick up Urth one day, Philip.
I am pretty sure I will try out Urth of the New Sun someday, Jeroen. Whether it clarifies things or confuses them for me remains to be seen, but I'm sure it will be interesting. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I am sure it will do both, haha!
hokay, I'll add Wolfe to my Authorial Apprenticeships list, sounds like the kind of book I need to look at
I hope you'll enjoy BOTNS, Jack!
Insightful, excellent discussion, as expected. 🙂 Sooooo sorry to have missed this guys.
So when are we doing Urth of the New Sun? 😉
Behind our efforts you will find our efforts!
We missed your company, my friend! Urth of the New Sun at some point in 2024? Cheers, Matt!
I mean, I’ll be reading Urth in 2024, regardless whether or not you guys do :)
I recently finished BotNS for the first time, I was blown away, it’s astonishing. Like Moby Dick or Joyce, it rewards a close reading and perseverance.
I think it will also reward rereads!
Would love to hear your thoughts on Urth to complete TBOTNS series.
@@talus9663 I’m planning to reread BOTNS next year and then tackle Urth. Cheers!
I loved going along this journey with you guys but I am curious where is Mattonbooks?
Matt was supposed to join us for this one but ultimately couldn’t make it. We missed him but are glad he’s back on BookTube!
New botns content on UA-cam? 🥰😍🥰😍🥰😍 definitely love hearing new thoughts about the series! Y’all have some good ones!
Thanks so much - I appreciate you watching!
What a journey! I recommend the Shelved by Genre podcast.
Thank you for the recommendation!
Great discussion but i think it bears mentioning that the mountain statue is unambiguously a depiction of Typhon.
I really loved the Book of the New Sun (I have much more ambivalent feelings about Urth though). Would anyone recommend R Scott Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy?
Bakker is a brilliant writer, so I would highly recommend Prince of Nothing with the warning that it’s incredibly bleak and, at times, disturbing (deliberately so).
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Cool, thanks. How does it compare with BotNS thematically, stylistically, conceptually? I've seen the Prince of Nothing described as philosophical and dense, and it also looks like it deals with religious themes, although maybe from a different angle than BotNS.
@@foodchewer It’s centered on a holy war that resembles the First Crusade, but in a fantasy setting. It is definitely rich with themes, including the question of free will (with the narrative strongly suggesting we don’t have as much as we think, if any), violence in a patriarchal world, and the perils of certainty. That said, while rich and complex, it’s easier to follow than BOTNS.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Ooooo it certainly does sound interesting, but I'm going through kind of a rough patch in my life right now so this series definitely might be too heavy, especially regarding the question of free will or lack thereof, a question which can keep me up at night on my best days. And to be honest, BotNS explores the question of free will quite a bit itself (there is a plan for Severian that has been in motion since the beginning...). Anyway, I think I'm just gonna work through the rest of the Solar Cycle for now, starting with the Book of the Long Sun. I have seen the light of Wolfe.
@@foodchewer Yes, Bakker’s series is brilliant but bleak. Best wishes for reading further in Wolfe’s series!
Keep in mind that BotN isn't simply a story told from a first-person pov. It's an autobiography written at a specific point in the author's life for a specific audience, which is not us .
Wolfe’s secret is his deep Catholic faith - the Christian mystery and transcendence is woven into his books in veiled ways. Like Scripture, Gene employs typology, layers and allusions within his stories; and there is always something happening between the words. New Sun and Moby Dick are probably the two greatest novels ever written. (Short Sun is Wolfe at his best though)
As a medievalist, I immediately felt that The Book of the New Sun had an allegorical and typological feel to it. Cheers!
How do you recommend the series? The whole thing is 800 pages total.
One other aspect is Wolfe as Korean war veteran. I can see Severian as a soldier now out of the service entering the world to find meaning.
It is a series that demands to be reread. I found myself getting lost in the writing and missing the story, and vice versa.
Wolfe tightly holds to first person so there is little overt exposition. Severian knows what he is talking about so why explain it? You don't have the 'default' medieval European based setting.
Can you spoil the series? He tells you how it ends about page 50. But like certain other books, the ending reframes the beginning.
Excellent points, Eric. The beginning of Citadel of the Autarch is one of the most compelling statements I’ve ever read about war. I hope to reread this series someday. All the best!
Paul mentions Borges influenced Wolfe, Borges was also a fan of Olaf Stapledons last and first men. 1930. Which I’ve just started reading, which contrasts mans failure due to war to achieve spiritual and technological greatness. However I’m only about 50 pages in. And we’re still on earth
Cool!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy also, I have no proof of this, but mabey the lost world by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle might have been an influence here’s a quote
“Fawcett wrote in his posthumously published memoirs: "Monsters from the dawn of Man's existence might still roam these heights unchallenged, imprisoned and protected by unscalable cliffs. So thought Conan Doyle when later in London I spoke of these hills and showed photographs of them. He mentioned an idea for a novel on Central South America and asked for information, which I told him I should be glad to supply. The fruit of it was his Lost World in 1912, appearing as a serial in the Strand Magazine, and subsequently in the form of a book that achieved widespread popularity."
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy also, I have no proof of this, but mabey the lost world by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle might also have been an influence, here’s a quote
“Fawcett wrote in his posthumously published memoirs: "Monsters from the dawn of Man's existence might still roam these heights unchallenged, imprisoned and protected by unscalable cliffs. So thought Conan Doyle when later in London I spoke of these hills and showed photographs of them. He mentioned an idea for a novel on Central South America and asked for information, which I told him I should be glad to supply. The fruit of it was his Lost World in 1912, appearing as a serial in the Strand Magazine, and subsequently in the form of a book that achieved widespread popularity."
Is this a good primer for Malazan or vice versa?
I would say no. Malazan has complexity, but in a different way.
I would also say no. I don't think Malazan and BotNS are that comparable.
I agree with Jeroen and Rogue, Heidi. It seems like a lot (but not all) of the same people enjoy Malazan and BOTNS, and the two series share a penchant for ambiguity at times. Beyond that, they are very different experiences, I think. Malazan is much bigger and, for me, is a much more emotional experience. While it's sprawling, Malazan does have a plot that you can more or less figure out. While much shorter, BOTNS is very much, for me, an intellectual exercise where what little plot there is serves the thematic explorations.
Ok I will tackle Malazan first!! Thank you Phillip.
@@heidi6281 My pleasure, Heidi! My best to you for the series!
I thought the Ascians were there precisely for Wolfe to criticize Sapir-Wharf
@@gabrielarias4515 Perhaps!
everytime I see Jared, I think he's british for some reason
He could pull off British, I think - just needs to adjust that Ohio accent a bit. 😁
But where's the drama, tensions, conflicts, thrills, mystery, morality, comedy, justice, personality, character, crime, scenery, fear, hypocrisy, betrayal, desire, etcetera? What is the plot? Ostensibly or actually?
Am I supposed to suss it out because it exists independent of me? Does Wolfe hide his plot? Is that plot interesting? Alternatively is there no real plot, is it all pastiche. Like scenes of a hanging?
I found these books boring. Not interesting enough to hold my attention. Full of content but no correlation. That is to say no sense of narrative coherence.
The narrator is not "unreliable", he cannot correlate the contents of his experience. There is no strong sense of self, point of view from the sense of sentience. No personality with emotional investments in the things he's doing or experiencing. Description without explanation, justification.
While I didn’t find the books boring, I can’t say I disagree with you about the incoherence of the plot, at least on my first read. You’re also right about Severian’s emotional detachment as he narrates. Yet I still find myself wanting to return to this story someday to see if I can make more sense of it. There’s something about its stunning prose, the themes it explores, its unconventional nature, and, above all, the sense of mystery and wonder that pervades it, that I find compelling.