Discussion of Gene Wolfe's Shadow of the Torturer (Book of the New Sun #1) with Matt and Paul
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Matt from @MattonBooks and Paul Williams, who is a PhD candidate studying fantasy, sit down with me to unravel The Shadow of the Torturer, the first part of Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun.
This was a ton of fun and quite the honor to join you guys for this. Looking forward to Claw of the Conciliator!
Thank you, Paul, for being such a wonderful guest and for adding so much to my appreciation of Book of the New Sun!
Trust me: Wolfe is just getting started with you :)
Claw! Claw! Claw!
Was a great chat guys! Really enjoyed it, and looking forward to the next one! 😀
It was a joy to chat with you and Paul, Matt, and I appreciate you helping me to understand and appreciate this classic even more!
You have some wonderful insights, Matt. Glad to hear you will be continuing these discussions for the whole series!
@@t3cchan Thanks Terry. Im so looking forward to reading and discussing more BotNS! 🤘🏻😀🤘🏻
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Achievement unlocked! I helped Herr Professor Doktor Fantasie understand something! 😜
Really loving my journey through this series, and this discussion is simply adding to the enjoyment, along with Moid’s chats with Alzabo Soup and my discussions with Christopher Ruocchio.
Started Sword of the Lictor this morning, and having a great time so far.
It's awesome to hear that you're getting a lot from the series too, Scot! All the best!
Was looking forward to this. I first read book of the new sun last year and I feel like it changed my life. Such an interesting deep world and character. The unreliable narrator is the best and it's a book that requires constant attention and will always stick with you.
Thank you for covering this, I'm so glad there is finally more BotNS and gene Wolfe content
Thank you, Bryson! It's a lot of fun to cover this series, and I'm glad it's content that some people are looking for.
I'm too late to the party, but guys, that was a great discussion with many wonderful insights. It's is so good and important that Paul mentioned Borges. Not just because he is one of my all time favorites, but also because it is so helpful to keep Borges in mind while reading BotnS. By the way I encourage every lover of fantastic literature to get familiar with his work. So @Matt: Read Fictions! And @Paul: Read Eco's Name of the Rose (and Borges' poems)! Some of the similarities with Wolfe are really astounding and I'm sure it will shine a new light an Wolfe for you. Thanks everyone! I'm really looking forward to the next discussion.
It's never too late for joining the party, Mirko! Cheers!
Severian never lies. Or does he? There are so many ways to talk about his reliability but Citadel gives a clue. It is possible that he never lies but I cannot spoil it until you get there, Dr. Chase. Also I think the part with the Mirrors was Father Inire's bit, not Severian's. There are strong hints of Dr. Talos's nature in Shadow but you have no context for it so you'll gloss over it. This is one of the reasons why I love the book so much. A lot is given to you but you don't know it yet from a first read, and the book evolves the more you understand it. Thank you for this discussion and I look forward to the discussions on the other books.
It’s definitely a strong candidate for a book that opens up even more on a reread! I’m looking forward to some answers and, no doubt, a lot more questions. Cheers!
Severian: is quite possibly a liar; has a fallible memory; does not understand the world he inhabits; has admitted to being an inexperienced storyteller; and his story is being told through a translation, which, naturally, can never accurately convey the original text.
Calling this book next level is such an understatement. So many layers of uncertainty. I've fallen in love with this book, and I'm looking forward to each of these discussions.
Thank you, Jarl!
Vey much enjoyed listening to y'all's discussion of one of my favorite book series and authors of all time. Andre Driussi's chapter book and dictionary are awesome resources. I have read the series 4 times in the last 15-16 years and found something new every time. Looking forward to your next discussions.
I am confident that every read of this series will include new insights, which is one reason why, no doubt, it's so beloved. All the best, Stephen!
What an amazing chat. Looking forward to watching the rest as I read along in the series. Wolfe really is playing a different game.
I could not agree more with your last sentence. Best wishes for your read of the rest of the series!
This was helpful, thank you! I’m reading along with you and I had almost NO idea what I had read when I hit the end of The Shadow of the Torturer. After thinking about it for several days I decided to sacrifice a few days of reading so I could listen to all the many, many hours of the Alzabo Soup podcast covering this. It was fascinating. One of the hosts has a theology degree so his take on all of the religious references was excellent. I do really recommend the podcast.
Philip, I’m wondering, given Wolfe’s war experience, how different do you think he thinks soldiers are from torturers? It strikes me that they have different skill sets but the way they are trained, are desensitized, and are bound by ritual is actually quite similar. Also, the result of their efforts, death and suffering, not at all dissimilar. Still, society views them very differently both IRW, as readers of this book, and in the world of the book. Maybe?
I’ve never read a book quite this difficult to grasp on first read but I’m absolutely loving this whole experience. I’m glad you are too!
That’s an excellent insight in regard to the similarities and differences between torturers and soldiers, and I feel like you’re on to something important there. Also, I’ll have to check out that podcast, though I don’t think I can afford to sacrifice hours of reading time. I’m glad you’re along for the read!
Very interesting discussion.
Thank you, Paromita!
Just finished Shadow of the Torturer yesterday and I'm so glad I found this discussion. It was very enlightening!
I’m glad you found the discussion helpful!
Great discussion, big fan of this series which remains critically underrated. To me, the writing is top notch.
I'm in the middle of Sword of the Lictor right now!
I can relate so much to has been said in this video. Love Gene Wolfe with all my heart!
I'm looking forward to finishing Book of the New Sun!
Great convo, guys! Can't wait for you to hit the next three. One thing that's nice is I feel like books 2-4 are much more "fun" on a pulp adventure novel level...part of this being split from being one book is that Shadow of the Torturer is all introduction until the last stretch of the book.
I could use some pulp adventure, so that’s excellent news, Andrew! I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion!
Great Philip. I am excited for what you will discover in the next books
Thanks, Mike! I’m excited too - seems like this is a read that will pose more questions than usual, and I love that.
You mentioned something i thought about while reading: i did pick up on the fact that he was writing the memoir as the Autarch. I definitely thought "man, he's a rebellious teenager who ends up becoming the Autarch?" And it almost reminded me of someone like Hitler. I imagine that saverian the autarch as a Stalinist figure ( or some kind of evil dictator. Well, evil according to our modern interpretations of morality anyway. but i compare Saverian writing these memoirs to Hitler writing Mein Kampf. That's just me personally. I didn't consider a lot of this, this video is helping me contextualize a lot of what i read
@@jevinday Severian the narrator’s position as Autarch is an important aspect of understanding the story, but the full implications of it don’t emerge until the end of the series, and even then I was still puzzled by some things. Best wishes!
Wow the more I watch these discussions the more I realize how many things completely went over my head 😂
There's a lot going on in The Book of the New Sun, but the one thing that I can say for sure is that I'm missing a lot of what's happening too!
Love this series, excited to hear your opinions!
Cheers, Simon!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Great discussion - so many little nuggets that reminded me of things I'd forgotten, and I'm definitely headed for a reread. It's a series ive jumped an and out of over the years, each read interesting in it's own way. I would also recommend Wolfe's shorter fiction, his short stories and novellas. This chat certainly opened my eyes to new possibilities in the text, many thanks guys.
@@SimonHolcroft I’m glad you took something from the discussion, Simon! I suspect a reread will reveal a lot!
Thanks for the interesting discussion guys!
Some random thoughts
The name of the dog: a triskele is also one of the oldest spiritual symbols consisting of three intertwined spirals that can be found carved in Newgrange. There a many pagan and Christian interpretations but a common one is that it symbolises the interplay of body, mind and spirit.
Torture of course interupts that interplay of body, mind and maybe spirit. Something that Elaine Scarry looks at in her book The Body in Pain: The Making and Unmaking of the Spirit.
Umberto Eco was a great Borges fan and had indeed his library in mind for the one in Il Nome della Rosa.
And a question: Some things that were discussed somehow reminded me of Angela Carter. Does any of you know if Wolfe has read her?
Thanks again! And thank you, Philip for hosting this interesting panel!
I'm not sure about Wolfe reading Angela Carter, but it wouldn't surprise me. Very cool about the triskele as a spiritual symbol, and well said about torture interrupting the interplay of body, mind and spirit. Thanks as well for the confirmation of Eco being a Borges fan. All the best, Angela!
Can't watch this quite yet since I haven't read the book, it definitely has been staring at me on my shelf! Looking forward to coming back and watching once I've read it. For now I'll leave a like and play the discussion on mute! Cheers.
Thank you, Calvin! I hope you’ll get a lot from the experience when you read it!
Finally read the shadow of the torturer and able to watch this discussion!! Really great and thought-provoking talk. It’s such an interesting book, I feel like I am hedging my bets on sooo many different things. At this point I just need to go with the flow, and rely on a re-read sometime in the future to put more pieces together! Otherwise my brain will explode. Looking forward to the following discussions. I will say Severian’s misogyny and the insta-love frustrated me quite a bit, but within the context of the story and the narration perspective, as well as Severian’s simplification of all of these relationships and events, I can kinda live with it.
Starting my work day right now, but very excited to listen to this discussion later today! I started reading Shadow of the Torturer because of your coverage, and I'm just about done with it
I hope you will enjoy the discussion when you get to it, Terry! Cheers!
I read the book first when I was nineteen. It was the first English language book i seriously tackled with. I loved it. Possibly even got some of the scenes, some of the narrative. Had been reading scifi for ten years at the time. Translations mostly, being a native Finnish speaker. For some reason "Pelagic argosy sights land" became my favourite sentence ever. And I still am unable to translate it to my own language. (I have read the the Book of the Long Sun and the following three Short Sun books, too. Dunno, if I liked them that much. But I'm sure that Wolfe is a big, sophisticated
beast.)
That’s a fantastic sentence, indeed! You picked quite a challenging book to be your first in English, but it’s clear that it made a great impact. Cheers, Aki!
This was like music to my ears, beautiful! So interesting discussion and what a team!
I love that we know he is the Atark by the start. That he is the lucky one, choosen one or something else. It makes for a so interesting story. And that he keeps saying he has a perfect memory.
I don't like the idea that his is a liar. Maybe more that he like to keep some details out. And later on when he comes back to a memory he accidentally slips out a bit more by mistake and to proud to change it back. Or he don't have time to revisit and correct the thing he don't want to say.
I think even if you have a perfect memory you can get lost and stuff like that. Humans can't be perfect with everything even if you are smart in one thing, you might lack in some other.
I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion!
Great discussion! Really enhanced the book for me
Thank you, Andrew! I’m happy it was helpful for you.
I haven’t tuned in for a year or more and I find you’re reading Gene Wolfe. He’s the finest sff writer of the 20th century.
8:19 I wonder if that guy has had a chance to read Long Sun yet. It gets a lot better than New Sun.
It’s been an interesting read so far, Harrison! My approach this time has been to stay in the story and not worry about all the things I’m missing as I read. The three of us have covered all the way through Sword of the Lictor so far, and I’m looking forward to Citadel of the Autarch in August. Cheers!
Right at the end there Matt mentions the various levels of uncertainty, down from Wolfe the author into Wolfe the translator then to Severian the chronicler (plus whatever else may not even be clear as yet). Gene was also a prolific and masterful short story writer and one of his best shorter works (I guess more of a novella length) that gives a similar delightfully confounding sensation is Seven American Nights
I have a feeling that “confounding” is a word that comes up in association with Gene Wolfe more often than it does with most other authors. I’m enjoying all the questions right now!
Great discussion! I think you guys were spot on with a lot of your theories and speculation. Theres so much to unpack with these books
Lmao at non-GMO humans
Thank you, Ethan! I’m looking forward to discovering more as I continue in the series!
So great to watch this discussion because I have no idea what I just read.
We are glad to be helpful, though I confess I'm not entirely sure what happened in the book either. 😄
As for severian having a "perfect memory", I believe him. There are always ways to explain away his "mistakes" and I can only accept the book of I accept severian has a perfect or "remembers everything" memory
That's an interesting take! I'll keep that idea in mind as I continue in the series.
Good stuff! I just got into Gene Wolfe!
Cool! I hope you enjoy his writing!
I draw the line at the James Joyce slander at the end. (Ulysses might be my favorite book of all time)
Ha ha! I love Joyce’s short stories, but I’ve not attempted Ulysses yet. Someday!
Thanks for the video! I’m sure there are lots of your viewers that have just finished the Malazan books over the past year (like myself) that are curious and/or eager to try their hand at Wolfe, so this is a nice primer for that!
Awesome! I would venture to guess that you're absolutely correct about all those hungry Malazan readers, Leroy!
Great conversation. These books really are a mine of questions and answers. One thing that I believe is that you can do a feminist reading of BotNS, as the Tortures can be very analogous to a patriarchal system, for example
I think you’re absolutely right, Pedro, and that would be a valuable reading.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Hopefully in the future. Also, and I don't think it was mentioned, but did you catch that Baldanders and Dr.Talos DON'T have Saint names? (And not Latin, German and Greek respectively)
@@Zetamen7 Good point!
Excellent discussion. This is my favourite fantasy/ sci fi series and I love listening to intelligent cpnversations about it.
Female Characters in Wolfe
I think Mr. Paul Williams makes an excellent point when he says that we are viewing these women through the distorted lens of Severian - it becomes easy to conflate his misogyny and attribute it to Wolfe but I think we must take a deeper look at these women and see what Severian lets slip about them.
Dorcas - Is one of my favourite characters in the Book of the New Sun. Severian is oblivious but if we play close attention we can see signs of an extremely intelligent woman, well read who is an excellent judge of character. She is the first to warn Severian about Agia - telling him not to trust him. Unlike Severian's long winded philosophising which actually never makes sense when you subject it to critique, Dorcas makes intelligent points about evil and good on the boat. SHe is able to figure out the riddle of the note that Severian receives at the Inn of Lost Loves. She takes a stand on the Sanguinary Field - pointing out that while Severian is practically naked, the Septentrion facing him is in full armour. Severian would never have the intelligence to questions such a thing. After Severian "dies" to the avern, Dorcas cares for him and manages to get him to safety. She is an amnesiac woman of little physical prowess wandering a dangerous and bleak world . She cares for Severian but her decision to sleep with him might also come across as a practicality when you take a birds eye view of just how bleak the world is.
Also, as far as her identity is concerned, it is not a spoiler to point out that just before Dorcas appears, a boatman is looking for his deceased wife and he calls her " Cas".
Thecla - I think it is worth asking the question - what was the nature of the relationship that Severian and Thecla shared? And who had more power in it ? When Severian is elevated to a journeyman and Thecla calls him "only a boy" what psychological effect would that have had on a person as emotionally stunted as Severian? And who is the real Thecla? Thecla is someone we will find out more about in future books but she is again a very three dimensional character with real worth.
Agia - Agia comes across as the primary antagonist of The Shadow of the Torturer. Will we see her again? Maybe. But based on this book alone I think we get a clearer picture of her if we look at a few instances. As the book progresses, Agia, who has ostensibly lured Severian into a con to procure his sword realises that she is in over her head. Severian is a torturer, not an actor posing as one. HE seems to attract coincidences and strange events. HE attempts to isolate him are frustrated by Dorcas and her erratic behaviour in the Inn, trying to distract him with sex are purely fuelled by fear of discovery. And yet - when Severian is about to enter the Sanguinary field she tries to call the whole thing off. Is this genuine concern for Severian or concern for Agilus? It makes one wonder.
I am reading this book for the third time and these nuances just leap off the page for me at this point but on a first read, it is easy to assume that these women are poorly depicted and flat - which is where a lot of the charges of misogyny against Wolfe really come from. The richness and subtlety of the characterisation only comes through on a second read.
Dorcas and Agia in New Sun and all the female characters in The Long Sun - so well written.
Thecla? Lets come back to her after Claw.
Thank you for your excellent insights and observations about the female characters, Pranav! I enjoyed reading your comments very much, and you gave me a lot to think about. Cheers!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thank you for your kind words Dr. Chase. I recommend the Alzabo Soup Podcast where these themes are explored in greater detail. Gene Wolfe is a wonderful erudite author whose books are a gift that keep giving. I look forward to your discussion of the Claw of the Conciliator.
I am absolutely loving this discussion, but unfortunately I think what I really need to do is bow out and re-experience (or at least re try to experience) the series again before I go too much further... Matt and Paul's insights are too powerful!!
I have a feeling that this series rewards rereads more than any other I’ve read. I’m pretty sure a lot of things will fall into place as I read the next three books, though. Cheers, Zan!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy for sure, I'd expect you'll have an easier time than I did, I'm just coming from a place where I don't remember much at all, so it might as well be a first read. I'll finish this vid but keep the next ones for later (maybe this year still tbh)
The way I read it (and at this point I've only read the first book), as the end of the world nears time is getting extended, as if they're approaching a black hole's event horizon. Simply, the days felt too long to me, too much happened but also in this slow way as if there was all the time in the world. (Not to mention all the times Severian looks into the past, and I think the future too!) I think Wolfe is pointing to the "big crunch", the idea that the Universe compresses on itself only to expand anew. So the idea that things are circling back ("resurrection and death") makes perfect sense to me!
As to how Severian treats women, the only thing I'd add is that they ALL live in a totalitarian, patriarchal, doomsday society. We see on all levels that women are nuns or get labeled as "witches", they're given to the Autarch as comcubines/political hostages, and when they're not "wives" and "daughters" and barmaids they engage in sex work and crime, implying (to me at least) that those are the things they can do to support themselves. But even so we can see that they all have their inner worlds: Thecla and her hopes and dreams, Ajia and her determination and cleverness, Dorcas and her intelligence and people skills.
Great comments! You’ll get further glimpses of the inner worlds of the women as you progress, though through Severian’s lens. He does really get into the head of one of them, though. My best to you for the rest of the series!
I read Shadow but didn't find it incredibly amazing like you guys. Should I just keep reading? It seems like it makes sense the longer you read
@@jevinday It makes more sense as you read more, but I can’t say that I figured out everything after one read of the series. Good luck deciding!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasyI just might after watching this video. I just got done finishing the Dune books so I guess I was expecting Shadow to be a good book on its own like Dune, but it seems like you have to read the whole thing for it to make sense, I should have figured that when they sold the first half as one book
Hahah yeah the ship volant I imagined a ship at first because the book really reads like it's fantasy but it's fantasy set in a post ultra advanced sci fi age. What he sees is a space ship
I read the first book in my early 20's and like Ursula Le Guin I thought it was a masterpiece. It was so well written and the disgraced trainee torturer/executioner exiled to a provincial city I thought was a masterful set up for what would be a brilliant series. Great characters, a mysterious object with supernatural powers..... then I just thought it lost its way, became too confusing and esoteric and never reached its potential. The prose however, particularly in that first book was sublime.
The prose really is sublime. Thanks for checking out the discussion!
Generic New Sun review - Not sure what I read, I can kind of tell you what happened but am intrigued and looking forward to a rereadmat some point
One comment I did find interesting is that how their military experience, Tolkein Wolfe and will add Cook, greatly affected their world view and influenced their writing creating something new.
Another commenter pointed out how Wolfe’s experience in the Korean War might have influenced his portrayal of torturers, who live by similar rules to those that govern soldiers but, unlike soldiers, are not celebrated. Your comment would be an interesting starting point for a PhD dissertation!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy What struck me was how Severian was in this small sequestered world and then thrown into the chaos of the normal world like a soldier returning home.
@@EricMcLuen And those two worlds have different rules.
One question I have is: did anybody consider the name Baldanders beeing a German word? Bald means soon and anders means other or different. So Baldanders would mean soon different. Does this make any sense? 😮 I‘m in book no3 (about half way through) and it is my first read. And at minute 23 of this video 😂. So that‘ s my state of knowledge.😅
It makes a lot of sense, and you will soon find out why! Cheers!
I had no idea there was a chapter guide. I got the lexicon only after I read the first book, and I wish I got it earlier. I would literally reread parts if I didn't understand them. Look up gene-words and stuff (the lexicon would have really helped with that). I wanted to get it all and I feel like I did. Even obscure references, like in that jungle section in the garden of whatever, the man and woman they meet. I thought it was strange I saw them like dressed in clothes from the 19th century in my head. And they had regular English names. Except the one thin old guy that Gene seemingly intentionally doesn't mention the skin color off (insongoma or something). The name of the old man means medicineman in Zulu or something and the guy (Robert?) And his wife (Mary?) Are two famous missionaries that went to Africa.
Severian in that scene is transported to our time, like a ghost or light. Robert and his wife can't really see them but Robert and the medicine man feel them. The garden (as is hinted at multiple times) is basically a bunch of interconnected rooms going to different times and places. The room / location where the avern is was connected to the garden so the aitarch could visit the soothseer that lives there.
Ps also never saw anyone talk about this. But the mirrors of father Inire are based on an experiment by a Russian scientist. He was a genius (forgot the name) locked up for years in isolation by the ussr, he went mad inside and claimed he had invented a machine to travel time and space etc when he was let out.. It was a chamber of mirrors created with a spiraling plate of metal that was polished to a mirror finish.
Apparently the machine created vivid visions, hallucinations of *creatures made out of light* and made peopel communicate with other worldly beings etc. Some youtuber recently did a video about it and I saw it coincidentally not long after reading the chapter with the mirrors. I'm 99% sure gene wolfe read about that and got the inspiration for the chamber of mirrors from that. The experiments are still going on even though the guy is long gone and a crackpot
There is so much to this series! I feel like I read it a dozen times and still find new references.
Why didn't anyone tell me there are cheat books?! Ha! Really, though, this helped. I may give the series another try. Thanks, gents. 👍
I know! It’s like using Sparknotes, but in this case an entire book was required. All the best!
Thecla not Thecna. I thought that the Garden was like records or memories from the past, not a two way live connection to the past times. Severians is naive, he was sheltered by his masters in the Matachin tower. He falls in love with every skirt he meets. He betrays his oath to the Autarch by joining Vodalus because of Thea and Thecla in a way. He has a very flexible morality, not a hero but he is difficult to judge because he is a product of his times and education/training. I think he died in the river at the start of the story but he didn't have the Claw. He definatively trying to portray himself in a good light.
Definitely an interesting character!
Wander if the cathedral tent of the pelerines, destined to conflagrate and ascend was made of silk. Silk being the name of the priestly protagonist of the Book of Long Sun, the tale of the generation ship launched by the tyrant Typhon depicted in the Sword of the Lictor.
I didn't catch that he was the autarch until much later
The question is not: is Severian a reliable narrator, but - are there any reliable narrators out of the thousands of narrators that could be telling the story at any given time.
The Book of the New Sun is written after Severian assimilated not only Thecla's essence, but the Autarch's (and the many Autarchs).
This may explain why Severian sometimes knows things he shouldn't, or sometimes doesn't know things he should. Or he's interpreting events not from his perspective, but from the perspective of those who know more than he does.
He may tell lies because one of those other personalities might be a liar. He may be kind one moment and cruel the next depending on who is viewing and/or telling events.
It's astounding what Gene Wolfe did here.
During the discussion about Severian's reliability you skipped over another aspect of his unreliabilty or the contradiction in his memory: at the end of Chapter 3 he states matter of factly, "... I realized for the first time that I am in some degree insane." It may not be that his memory is unreliable because Severian is lying per se, but that his memories may be colored by this mild insanity; what seems real to him in his memories does not always square with the reality of the situations he describes.
Great point, Steven!
Just a little thing that I think is symbolic too but you guys didn't mention: Severian is wearing his sword on his back, like Jesus did with the cross... :)
Nice! Wolfe’s Catholicism pervades his writing, it seems.
For Matt, both Frankenstein and Wuthering Heights have unreliable narrators who are relying the story of an unreliable narrator.
Great discussion.
Thank you, Duffypratt!
It's strange that a book from the perspective of such a damaged, unreliable narrator can be so fascinating. This book was great.
I’m glad you enjoyed it!
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy I'm glad you did as well! This was a great discussion!
How Severian behaves towards women should be seen through the lens of the fact that he was raised as a torturerer learning how to peel off the skin of a living person while exultant kids were learning how to read. And this in what seems to be a hyper patriarchical society. His only interaction with women is of their "clients".
The only thing weird is that Both Agia and Dorcas (very obviously wife of the old guy at the lake btw, he calls her Cas and describes her as blond with blue eyes I believe) throw themselves on him. And it's kinda sad AF that the old guy has been fishing for Dorcas ever since she's gone dedicating every minute he has to her. And she just wakes up, saves Severian then gets obsessed with him.
Agia meanwhile seems to almost needs to force herself on Severian. And then we find out she's jn an incestious relationship with her tein brother (she's naked with him in the cell when she visits, crawled over him with her hair in his face crying (now that I think about it ... Was she crying or was that Severian's inexperience with women/sex.) Although her crying doesn't change what they were doing or planning to do, or just done doing. Later, when Severian kicks out Agia, Agilus says, before you even ask, the answer is yes.
Yes, the poor old guy searching for his wife . . . That is indeed a sad fate.
@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy So I finished the second book. Even though I absolutely love the books so far. Wow is it sexist at times. I thought you were overreacting but wow.
Severian seems to hold women in really really low regard. And the whole bit with Jolanta ...even though it appears that she's taking him for that purpose and is pretending to sleep to "tempt him" and he gives in when moments before he said he didn't want to give her the satisfaction of knowing he desired her (Which is made worse considering that Jonas who's become a relatively close friend of Severian's loves her and plans to return for her, not to mention Dorcas. Severian as if the boat scene isn't enough then leaves her with Talos who threatens to cancel her when out of sight, then beats her with his cane (he hits her before that scene too). And even while running back for her he remarks that he's only running so he doesn't look like a heartless monster to Dorcas lol
Ah and poor Dorcas crying in her tent and coming out with a "brave smile" (gene uses a word for a brave smile of a woman trying to hide her great pain or something, forgot the word) after Jolanta and
Just the general way Severian talks about women kinda almost reminds me of the red pill type dudes on UA-cam. He seems to get upset at Jolanta bragging about how everyone desires her and esp the bit where she says even women turn gay for her. Then we get this whole bit about him wanting to demean her, use and abuse her etc or whatever.
It's so insanely well written that those parts are kinda jarring. Still I can't stop thinking about the books. The themes. Can't stop discovering little details and almost don't want to read the next two books because I don't want it to end lol
@@godofchaoskhorne5043 There’s definitely some painful stuff in there, and it’s hard to tell how naive Severian is about women, but it’s not a world I’d want to live in if I were a woman. I’m interested to see where it goes in Sword of the Lictor!
Severian seems to have an uncanny ability to find himself in the company of beautiful women who desire him of their own free will. Severian is most certainly a gentleman and never tries to make his audience think he's more popular with the fairer sex than he actually is. And even more certainly he is never violent or forceful with women. You can trust Severian in all of this. Has he ever lied to you?
Or maybe I'm just cynical. But about names! The river Gyoll seems to be named after Gjöll from norse myths. I don't know what to make of that. But the city of Nessus is named after the centaur who poisoned Hercules. And the city keeps moving as the waters of the river run foul and cleaner water is needed. But then the water turns foul, and they have to move again. Nessus, poisoning the river? I think that's neat.
Nice call on Nessus, Kalle! Finding myself in the company of beautiful women who desired me of their own free will is an uncanny ability that somehow eluded me. Ah, well, we can’t have everything, can we?
You think Wolfe made Severian a misogynist because he's conservative?
I don’t think so. Inclusion is not endorsement. I also don’t know how “conservative” Wolfe was. All I know is that he was deeply religious, which is not necessarily the same as being conservative.
@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy riiiiight.