@messenger ministries what about Timothy 3? Is it pagan as well? All books written by men. All Major prophets were men. Jesus choose 12 men and Paul after. Was it fake as well? If you don’t like the lord word get out of my religion.
@@Bible33AD God choose Jewish people as his prophets and disciples? Why bother picking someone who dont even pray to the same God of Abraham? Jesus dont have time to teach them what a Messiah even is
@Pk Amponn "Teach one another" is not the same as teaching a congregation. You say Paul tells men and woman to teach again but in the context of teaching a congregation Paul says with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit that he does not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man because of how original sin entered. I know you mean well, I hope the Holy Spirit gives you eyes to see and ears to hear.
@Pk Amponn Respectfully, I'd ask a few questions: What does Isaiah 3:12 mean to you? Does Judges 4:4 mention any appointment, as God does for Othniel, Ehud, Gideon, Jephthah and Samson? Who was General Barak? Did Deborah speak publically? What do Judges 17, 18, 19 and 21 have in common?
@Pk Amponn Isaiah 3:12 You said "sinful woman and children are not to rule over them." Are there any non-sinful people? See Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8-10. David and Gideon lived in completely different times. Even from Deborah, we see Gideon wasn't even born yet. Deborah never commanded an army. Barak did. Deborah never directed an army. Barak did. However, Deborah advised Barak. Judges 4:4 Deborah's husband was Lappidoth Judges 4:6 Barak was a commander Judges 4:8 Barak was a coward Exodus 23:33 They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against me; for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you." Joshua 6:12 The Lord said, "Judah shall go up; behold, I have given the land into his hand." Judges 1:2 Failure to drive out the inhabitants. Judges 1:27-36, 2:1-5 A generation who did not know the Lord Judges 2:10-15 After this, Judges were appointed to save them out of the hand of those who plundered them. Judges 2 16-23 Othniel Judges 3:9-10 Ehud Judges 3:15 Shamgar Deborah The people of Israel went to her. She did not go to them. Judges 4:5 No mention of her speaking publically. She spoke to Barak only. Gideon called by the Lord Judges 6:14 Tola and Jair arose Judges 10:1-3 These go one. The context is Israel's disobedience. Pausing at Deborah, we are to understand that Barak was not only a coward, he was greedy for glory. Were Judges a good thing for Israel? Sure. Where they also a judgement? Most definitely. The entire book is judgement on Israel. They were taught war. The Lord hates war. No war is started without breaking the 7th commandment. Only then, is war justified and pleasing to the Lord. It is then the only remedy for cruel oppression as seen throughout the book of Judges.
@Pk Amponn No offense, but you are inserting an unbiblical principle into the scriptures to validate something that is not there. Isaiah 3:12 is a scathing condemnation for the sins of a nation if children oppress and women rule over them. They would be sinful if they did so, but the general context is the sinfulness of the nation would bring that type of rule, which is wrong. And to equate that to Deborah in Judges 5 is wrong. First, the judges weren't rulers (kings), they were deliverers. That is the reason Judges 21:25 repeats Judges 17:6, there were no kings during that time. This is also why the last judge, Samuel, was told by God to appoint a king and even then the people wanted the wrong type of king, so they got Saul (1 Samuel 8). Second, in Judges 4:6-8, we see Deborah exhorting Barak to deliver the people like God commanded him, but Barak didn't feel comfortable doing so and needed Deborah's companionship. In other words, Barak was originally told by God to be the judge, but his disobedience led to Deborah (a prophetess) to assist him. She wasn't originally supposed to rule anything; God sent Barak and the fact that Deborah was raised up shows Barak's disobedience and shame in that area. Also Deborah was the wife of Lapidoth (Judges 4:4) As for Colossians 3:16 and 1 Timothy 4:11, these are general commands for Christians to teach one another. The way God has teaching and preaching in the church in an orderly fashion are laid out in other scriptures. It is bad interpretation to take a general command and insert that it means women can do so in the church (by implication or inference) when the context of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 is a clear didactic set of verses that tell us women shouldn't teach or usurp authority over a man in the church. And as Tom Ascol pointed out, Paul's explanation is the creative order, not cultural. We don't negate culture, but the inspired text says nothing about the culture, but goes back to Genesis 1:27. Again, to insert a cultural reason when the text already gives you a Biblical one is bad interpretation. And finally, God has roles for men and women that don't negate their worth. Women can certainly proclaim the gospel and teach outside of the preaching of a church congregation (after all, Timothy was brought up by women in the Lord in 2 Timothy 1:5), but this thinking that we can insert feminism (and this is exactly what it is) into the roles and duties in the church is unbiblical. We don't pull out interpretations to make women able to do something in the church because it does damage to God's plain teaching on the subject. (And as you have pointed out in some posts here and others, you deny original sin from Genesis 3:6-15 and Romans 5:12, therefore it is no surprise that if you get that basic doctrine wrong, your understanding of other doctrines will also be skewed.)
@Pk Amponn The Spirit through Paul wrote he does not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. Our ways are not God's ways. Was it misogynistic of God to make a helper for Adam and assign a role for the genders? Both are equal in God's eyes but roles are taught throughout Scripture. God the Father sent God the Son who Obeyed the Father, both being equal yet having separate roles. I believe the Word of God to be just that. I pray you do too.
There is no biblical evidence of women pastors in the church period. Women however played a roll most definitely but if we are sticking to the scriptures no evidence anywhere.
@@atestring1379 Please use Scripture, am I missing somewhere in Scripture that clearly states women are to be Pastor's? Ascol said that in 1 Corinthians 14:34, the Apostle Paul says that women should be silent in church. “Paul identifies two activities, teaching and exercising authority over men in the church,” Ascol said. 1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. Ascol said. “Christian women are spiritually gifted like men are. We must reject any attempt to use a gift in a way contrary to God’s word.” He mentioned: 1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth ... To prayeth or prophesieth is expected, however Preaching at the Pulpit is different and not Biblically accepted, nor is it oppressive. 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, McKissic said "...It oppressive and sinful to deny women that opportunity.” Against God's Inspired Word. 1Co 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; *_God Bless_*
*Long post warning* I appreciate the debate, though I did grow frustrated with it from time to time. What I appreciated: 1. Mckissic brought arguments that I had not heard before. Usually, when this position is being debated, the side that affirms female preaching is usually held by someone who does not believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures. Mckissic clearly holds a high view of the Bible and does not want to compromise the importance of its authority. 2. They were cordial and kind toward each other 3. They mostly stuck to the issue at hand What I did not like: 1. Mckissic repeatedly violated the basic rules of debate. He did this by A. Speaking over the top of his opponent B. Asking questions of his opponent, during his opponent's cross-examination time. (This is where Dr. White's "You can ask me that when it is your turn" line comes in handy) C. Using his own cross-examination time to preach, rather than to cross-examine (this is where Dr. White's "Is that a question" line comes in handy) These are important rules. They help ensure that the material is properly covered and that the best possible cases are made. Those were very frustrating violations 2. I don't think it would be unfair of me to claim that Mckissic either held a double standard or simply caught himself in a contradiction (you can decide which one) repeatedly. He did this by: A. Quoting scholars who hold to his position, but then dismissing Ascol's position because some Christians disagree with the position of the scholars that Ascol quoted. So Mckissic can quote scholars who disagree with Ascol's position, but it is invalid for Ascol to quote scholars who disagree with Mckissic's position....because some people disagree with those scholars. B. When Ascol would make the argument for the historical precedents of his positons, Mckissic would say something along the lines of "Yes, but the church has been so wrong on race and gender issues in the past", he would then turn around and try to make an argument for the historical precedents of his own position...by quoting people.....from the same denomination....that he just dismissed.....for being wrong about things in the past. 3. Mckissic equated complementarianism with abuse. This is either slander, or a slip of the tongue. Either way, I am glad that Ascol shut that down. 4. While Mckissic did attempt to make a biblical case for his position, he relied almost completely on anecdotal evidence, experience, and (I believe it is fair to say) emotional pleas. 5. Honestly, I think that the lowest point in the entire debate took place during Mckissic's closing remarks. When he took this issue and turned it into a race issue....I think it reached a new level of low (that is...granting that point #3 was simply a slip of the tongue). This is a horrible way to think about our brothers and sisters. To accuse us of being fine with women preaching, as long as it is not over a white man is....well...it's disgusting. I am not simply trying to take it easy on Ascol. I honestly did not find a logical contradiction, a double standard, or even a violation of basic debate etiquette in his presentation. If there was one thing I would want to change about Ascol's presentation, I would simply want him to be more protective of his time, and not allow Mckissic to eat up so much of it with long stories and mini-sermons. But really, that is the Moderator's job most of the time. However, I do understand that this debate was supposed to be more on the friendly side. I am very thankful for this debate. And I am very thankful that these two brothers both hold to the inerrancy and infallibility of the scripture.
Hey man realize this has been posted like a year ago but I like your views and would love, if you desire so to relate with you more on this topic. thnk you
You just summed up my observations as well. I think Mckinssic (Is that how it is spelt?) came to the table thinking having separate roles for the different genders means “abusing” and “oppressing” them. The difference cannot be more stark, Mckinnsic thinks that Ascol is in sin and is preaching over him. Ascol is expecting a debate but what he got was a sermon.
Hey, this two Dudes just took sides to help us look/cross examine our ignorance on the issue in different angles, it was not meant for competition sir! Just examine yourself and give us your opinion on the matter!
You put aside God's command and obey human teachings. And Jesus continued, "you have a clever way of rejecting God's law in order to uphold your own teaching. Mark 7:8-9
Thanks to Dr.Ascol,he has been full of grace in his remarks,well seasoned and tackles the opponent with kindness,he is really a Christian to emulate search a scenario.Congratulions Ascol
One man is guided by what's written in the Bible. The other man is guided by the feelings and emotions of men. One will do anything to secure his paycheck. The other will only say what the Bible says. One believes the Bible as it is written. The other man doesn't believe the Bible. In the end, it comes down to this one thing. It sounds like one man was called, but the other man chooses preaching as his career according to his personal feelings. That's the problem here. This debate shouldn't happen if the Bible was accepted and believed.
It seems that one side says: "This is what God said and continues to say" (Ascol) and the other saying " Did He really?" (Mckissic). McKissic argument and hermeneutical approach is feeling and emotion based. Its the same approach currently being used by the Gay "christian" movement.; infiltrate the church, undermine the word of God and eventually try to destroy the church.
Thank God our Father and the LORD Jesus that He helped you see that and come to that conclusion. The very principle revealed in the Garden of Eden by satan is revealed in this debate and you observation. Well said.
A 1 hour and 36 min debate that I can sum up in one second....NAH! I had the opportunity to meet Pastor McKissic a few months ago for breakfast while he was here in Houston. Very gracious and warm conversation we had concerning this very subject. A funny story occurred that day that I must share here. I remember before ending our conversation he informed me about his upcoming debate with Tom Ascol and asked if I had any resources that would help better buttress his position. I asked him which position did he support? He said he supports women preaching and teaching in the church. I said, "I got nothing for ya, Doc!" 😉😂
"Let's be honest. The question on women preachers is not something that God's word is unclear about. What God says is not unclear, its just unpopular." - Tom Ascol Don't really know what to say to that!
In the bible, YAHWEH chose a woman to be His prophet..the bible says prophets are the best teachers..if YAHWEH CHOSE WOMAN TO BE A TEACHER OF GOD'S WORD..WHO IS MAN TO OPPOSE IT.. PAUL WILL NOT CONTRADICT GOD..o It is only man who contradicts the bible word..contradiction is misnterpretation ..misinterpretation is false teaching
@@janettemuana8614 I would appreciate any scriptural references you have to back up your 2 claims. Claim #1: Yahweh chose a woman to be His prophet. Claim #2: The Bible says prophets are the best teachers.... Also, from the sounds of it, you reject Paul's writings as scripture inspired by God (2Tim 3:16-17). Where and how do you draw the line on what is and what isn't scripture, if you don't accept the Canon as it is? Thanks
“And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.” Matthew 28:9-10 KJV www.bible.com/1/mat.28.9-10.kjv
@@savedmanmuathime2642 Romans 1:22-32 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, OUT OF ALL HE SAID, YOU STILL CAN'T DENY THIS SCRIPTURE 1 Timothy 2:12 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. THE WORD SAYS PROPHESY, NOT PREACH OR TEACH
What happens where the males are not saved and there is a woman who fears and loves the Lord? Will there not be the spirit of Deborah? I understand where there is the presence of the male men who loves and fears the Lord, then there should be order!
Read Judges chapter 4 8 Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.” 9 “Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah. “But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh.(V) 10 There Barak summoned(W) Zebulun and Naphtali, and ten thousand men went up under his command. Deborah also went up with him. Where the male men is spiritually asleep, God will a-times use women for leadership!
I love me some Tom Ascol! He is a very gracious man even on a topic he disagrees on. Tries to be clear as he speaks and most of all stands on the word of God
Maybe both of you are wrong. We are assuming that church practice of the the 21st century is the same as what was happening in the 1st century. It is doubtful that people met in huge buildings in which they sat in rows listening to Bible exposition. Churches were home based and more relational and interactive than our current religious culture. Both of you are starting with wrong assumptions about how churches operated therefore the conclusions are erroneous.
A lot of conflation and experience-driven approaches on Pastor McKissic's part. Women not being allowed to vote, Jim Crow and segregation has NOTHING to do with women being prohibited from teaching and preaching in the LORD'S CHURCH!
NT Wright? Scott McKnight ? In response to an expert reference analyzing the contextual history of first century Ephesus ? Jim Crow - Segregation ? For the love of Pete … McKissic Speaks out of both sides of his mouth and then becomes highly defensive… Does he even know what a hermeneutic is? “As long as the man is the pastor, I’m ok…” lol He’s all over the place….
Years ago before his departure, I asked One of my deceased mentors ( whose name I won’t mention), known as undeniably the greatest theological scholar of his time, what Biblical support did he have for women preachers? He responded, “ well I don’t support it from a Biblical posture…” I then kinda tuned out. The Bible does not support women in this position of church authority. It has become culturally acceptable based on the successful rise of feminism, but the church must not be echoes of the world.
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I ***suffer not a woman to teach***, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to ***be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Tim 2:11-14 (KJV) That is God's declared Will on the subject, and so is irrevocable! Only the "Devil and his angels" will contend differently, fooling and deceiving the weak and feeble-minded!
This scripture can be interpreted in reference to a man and woman in a marriage relationship. In other words the husband is the head of the wife. A man outside of that marriage covenant cannot be the head of another mans wife. So in relation to the church, one can argue that women are not restricted from teaching and leading men in general, if they are in submission and under the headship of her husband
@messenger ministries do you mean, Emma stark is more than the Bible? Canonical 66 books are accepted as God's inspiration. Even the early version is the same. Kindly don't misguide the people . You yourself try to find the various versions and read that and even look into the older version.
@@earnestlycontendingforthef5332 real question for you. Does your Church services look anything remotely like what the Apostle Paul wrote? Tell me how many gifts of the Spirit are being exercised where you attend. I'm very curious to know.
@Pk Amponn You must read the text in context. If you continued to 1 Corinthians 14:34 you would see "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says." Also listen to the response at 1:27:39
@@samrhodes3510 Why did they say that, the women would yell to there husbands (wanting to know what was said or understand what he meant) while in church plus they had to sit away from there husbands, those were the rules. Please read more of the Bible and you will see the truth and do some fasting while praying and God will answer you.
Thank you! We need more debates like this. Performed graciously for the one goal of glorifying God. I will say that Mckissic used a method of arguing that is in error. History, and what some have done in the past does not validate what God says on a matter. Also, equating white/black to man/woman is also illogical. God did not assign roles to black/white but He did to man/woman. Thank you again for this video. All glory to God!
what roles? The church supports women who go to the mission field to preach the gospel or even stand on the sidewalk handing out tracts and telling others of the good news. But when a woman steps inside the church to preach the exact same message she is labeled a heretic, rebellious, disobedient. If the church building were to blow away in a tornado leaving an empty lot, could she then stand where the church once stood and preach the gospel? P.S. The early church did not have pulpits or what we call church buildings. They met in private homes. Pulpits and church buildings came in centuries later. Women were there from the beginning.
@susanbarackman-artist7670 Preaching, as in the Great Commission, is different from shepharding a flock. Being a spiritual leader. Scripture is clear on roles.
@@PhoenixPestControlTN saying the bible is clear is a way of shutting down discussion....actually the bible says we see through a glass darkly how do you explain the underground church in iran led by women? why didn't God call a man? or Soujourner Truth, black ex=slave and 2 quaker women in the civil war south, told by God to preach against slavery?
Thank God for men like Tom Ascol....FYI though, Voddie Baucham only has credibility amongst White Unregenerate American Evangelicals. However, he is smart enough to get your vote, qualifying himself for a piece of the American Patriotic Pie!
@@Testifydesignfactorywhat is it your trying to say with this comment? Your saying voddies following is unregenerate white people? I would surely surely hope that’s not what your saying
I so appreciated the Christian friendship that was apparent even though you both have very different views on the subject. Tom Ascol was especially level and kind.
McKissic's last comment in his closing statement is very telling as to why he ultimately doesn't want to adhere to clear scripture. Just because evil people take advantage of the submission of faithful Christians, doesn't mean submission isn't what God called us to do.
I agree with Tom and I am a black woman. The other speaker is all over the place. The scriptures can not be changed. They are what they are. He turned the rules of the Bible into a issue of race. Wow. A mess
Numbers 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, 27:17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd.
Do more research besides that one scripture. A woman needed to learn before they speak in that scripture. Things needed to be order. It’s like If you didn’t understand a topic but added your input, you might as well keep silent until you know what you are talking about.
@@ericac.4316 I noticed you didn’t back any of that up with any scripture, you just gave me your own Opinion. Explain what God means by he does not permit a woman to have authority over a man or to speak in church they are to keep quiet explain what God means
@@fireandgrace9456 right and as a woman I agree with God he said keep silent in the church so she isn't preaching at all and women teach other women is what he said
As much as I don't want this to be the case, there seems to be a sweeping Romans 1 issue in the modern Church setting. People are intentionally suppressing the Truth in unrighteousness. Elevating Creation (in this case women) over Gods clear instruction.
"Let [your] women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection, as the law also says." "I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness...". What is debatable?
I suggest my short essay on Deborah. God ruled Israel through the Judges. A Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period, according to scripture.
I'm watching this in October 2021. If Dr. M is missing it on race in the Kingdom, I must conclude he's missing it on women preachers. We need more biblical truths and zero cultural and emotional driven conclusions. I have questions about tithing and Hell. For now, I must go with the biblical interpretations of the Reformist preachers until I learn better.
I don't think so , its a valid point. The bible has been used as a weapon during that time, but it was not the subject. Wish he had used more scripture for his point.
He lost NOTHING, why are you focused on the COMPETION, contrary, he is an OUTCRY that represents something you may never know! Don't focus on the PERFORMANCE, otherwise you will miss the BIG PICTURE!
God is so good that he actually made the scripture very simple & clear..Therefore it should be easy to detect who's misinterpreting the text; the bigger the lie the bigger the explanation
I'm an African American minister here in Virginia. Thanks to men like Dwight and other unlearned church goers it's almost impossible to find a fellowship that will bring in a man who oppose women preachers. I left the national baptist convention church I was raised in, licensed and ordained in. Now they have a woman leading them. When he and his ilk is done with the SBC, you will be just like the NBC. All anyone has to do in this discussion is Read, Listen and obey the word of God.
Dennis Dabney amen, my own pastor, who happens to be a white man, was ordained in the National Baptist Convention, has said that the Black Church is dominated by women. God bless you, Rev. Praying for you.
@@paulheadley1737 Brother Headley, Thank you sir for your comment and more importantly your prayers. To some this shift in the ministry of word from what it was in the 60's and 70's has the so-called blessing of the civil rights moment. This was a grave error on the part of my kinsmen according to the flesh to give women the opportunity to teach the word of God and preach the gospel when the assembly has come together in the name of equality. This decision has and will further weaken the local New Testament church according to the Holy Scriptures. The Spirit of God was clear as to why women can't teach and usurp authority over the man. He gave four conditions which made what is transpiring currently in the local assemblies forbidden. 1. Adam was created first. 2. Eve was created after him, and not before he had received the Word of God and subsequently joined the Lord God as he worked in the Garden of Eden. 3. He was not decieved. 4. The woman was decieved as she discussed the Word of God with the serpent and as she taught her husband as he listened to her words. Genesis 3:17.
@@dennisdabney4039 Awesome, bro! I agree with you! Let's be friends on Facebook: Joshua Zeegers is my name. We really should unite about this subject. I laugh and the Lord laughs at all the people who teach that women should even speak in church. Hate me all you want. You can have your one world religion. I will follow The Word of God. Your prayers are not heard unless you repent. Please stop pretending to obey God. in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. I Timothy 2:9-15 NKJV bible.com/bible/114/1ti.2.9-15.NKJV For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order. 1 Corinthians 14:33-40 ESV bible.com/bible/59/1co.14.33-40.ESV
@@StrangeDays25 Thanks Bro Joshua. I appreciate your response to my comment on the subject. At this point I am not on Facebook but may consider joining this year if for no other reason to address this matter. I look forward to speaking with you soon my friend. May the Lord richly bless you and yours.
@@dennisdabney4039 Thanks, please pray for me, as I am an American living in the Philippines. Please remember that God promised that you would do greater things than he did.
Sometimes the problem with us is we try to interpret God’s Word based on our feeling and thinking. If part of the word doesn’t make sense to us then it can’t be what it says. If we don’t feel right about the Word, then it isn’t what it says. These are the similar arguments used to say how can a loving God send people to hell? If there’s God and He is good how come He allows evil? How can God hate? We can’t decide which scripture to obey and which to disobey based on our senses. Dependence on senses was why Isaac was deceived by Jacob. We must obey the Word regardless of how we feel about it.
It is written in the New Testament that women are cited to not have the right to become PASTORS or PRIESTS. One of these is found in 1 TIMOTHY 2:12...Also noted in 1 CORINTHIANS 11:3-12; 14:34,35:1 TIMOTHY 2:11-15 and TITUS1,2. These passages are for the foundation for the conclusion that WOMEN CANNOT BE LEAD PASTORS IN CHURCHES 😇🙏🙏🙏
God was the same then ,now and forever is understood by some but not by all Pastors , and some Christians. It is very important to teach God’s Word correctly. His Word is easy to understand. Women need to be obedient unto God.
Have you ever noticed that a person who is wrong can never answer a simple question . They always have to go off topic. Do not be deceived the truth can be answered directly.....always be ready to give account for what you believe. The Bible doesn't give permission for woman to be pastors or to teach the Bible from the pulpit to mixed congregations.....stick with the word.
Dr. Mckissic got me confused. Wish he would had expounded on the Scriptures rather than relying so much on scholars and experience. It is hard to debate Mckissic. I wouldn't have wasted my time debating Mckissic especially since he made a near race issue.
Tom Aschol is very well-spoken in this debate. I agree with him..as I think he brings Biblical clarity to the subject. We recently left a church where women just treated the church service like a free for all. The piano player would speak out of her own accord whenever she felt like it...alot of gibberish. Male leadership should not compromise in this.
Pastor Mckissic is a very smart man and very very knowledgeable in the scriptures. I give him so much props for that. But at the end when they are going back and forth discussing the issue, its alot of personal opinion and alot "I feel." Very smart man and very well knowledgeable in the bible. But the bible makes it very clear that women should not usurp authority over man.
@Angel you doing what Paul says but Jesus give woman an opportunity , I say no no rape or sexual abuse ,among pastor men to do what they like ?? woman will not silence , going to bible college then what , God is equal with men and woman , God pour out his spirit upon son and daughter , Jesus give woman more opportunity to speak, should the woman at the well keep her mouth shut ? should Mary the adultery should be stone because of what she done ?? should Mary madalence who found the body of Jesus as 1st One person or should be the other way round as Peter or Thomas should be the 1st One ??? Tell me why was Mary the entire experience with Jesus was taken out of the Bible ???????????????????????????
We are dealing with Biblical outlines, not what we think or want. I do not find anything in the Bible that says anything about a woman preaching or teaching. In Corinthians Paul admonishes the women to be silent. It most likely had something to do with the church in Corinth more than women in general although in Judaism, women were not even allowed to participate in the service with the men, nor were they acceptable witnesses. But the real question is whether women can or should be pastors. That is a far greater role than teacher or preacher. I guess I am oldfashioned. Teach and preach, but do not pastor.
Great debate..personally I’m in a journey to hear female pastors and their biblical interpretation as a general experience for the foreseeable future. My prayer is that more women become pastors and I will celebrate them when they do. We are fully educated and capable in 2023 of being experts and ministers of Biblical word and men would gain much by listening.
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
@@anthonyhuggins1789 Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars? -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV (In case the reader in unaware, the word pastor and the word shepherd are the same word. I prefer shepherd, because it has obvious meaning to the average person.) Major modern English translations like the NASB use the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people... In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ -excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation Some believe that pastor (or shepherd), is a position that was created in the New Covenant. This is not true. In the Old Testament shepherds are mentioned multiple times. Often in a negative way. “My people have become lost sheep; Their shepherds have led them astray. -excerpt Jeremiah 50 For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may check out Ezekiel 34.
I recently have been considering leaving my church for reasons applying to this. We have 30 women’s groups and. Zero men’s groups outside of a one hr once a month bible study! Pastor tiptoes around this topic obviously not to offend the feminists and the lesbian spirit that has run rampant in our culture lately! This is unacceptable to me for reasons being clearly stated in scripture that the man is the head... how can our church teach men to be the head and to express biblical, natural leadership in our households if they only teach women and don’t even offer anything to teach biblical manhood and biblical directions to being the head Of household and main leader and disciple of our own families! This is a HUGE problem in our modern day churches and mine is losing a contributing and dedicated member bcuz of the adaptation to the spirit of the age which is evil, and satanic and against the word of God in sooo many ways
The Bible does however tell older women to instruct younger women. The idea of a women's group isn't necessarily anti-scriptural, but it is unfortunate that your church seems to be lacking men who are willing to lead like the women are. Have you perhaps thought about stepping up and putting something together?
Sir.. we are individualized church of God in SPIRIT..GOD deals with us individually.. just like God will judge us individually... it is our responsiblity to cry out unto GOD to have an encounter to GOD..THE LORD WILL DO THAT TO YOU...CRY AND ASK MERCY TO GOD TO OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE TRUTH...GOD ANSWERS PRAYERS OF THOSE WHO SEEK HIM...GOD WILL SHOW YOU THE MYSTERY OF THE BIBLE.
Drenathor yes my “old” church preaches biblical manhood and leadership but doesn’t offer the gatherings or classes or groups to teach us men how to do that! But have at least 30 women’s groups! Which to me tells me they have adopted to this feminist culture and aren’t interested in teaching or encouraging men to be biblicala nd to lead and disciple their families. But they are teaching their women to do that. The churches adapting and encouraging the culture is a huge red flag for me! It should be for everyone!! It is the main reason why people are turning from God and believe Christianity to be hypocritical! “Practice what you preach” even Barry White knew that one lol. I left that church. Another thing is my pastor told me he wanted to start a mans group which I was excited about and offered to run it however he wanted but then he told me it would have to be secret😳😳 wtheck is that about?? Why would it need to be secret! That was the final straw for me!
@@Lambdamale. If that church has that many feminists and then you say lesbians??? !!!!!! Or they are pro lesbian? If that's truly the case, run, don't walk out of that church, get out of there. One of the reasons of women wanting to lead and women wanting to teach and women wanting to be pastors is because of the weak men are not strong in scriptures they are weak and spiritual wimps, all over the nation and that's why we have feminists so much in the Church, weak men and weak pastors.
Preach and teach are 2 different things. We should follow God’s words, not experiences nor feelings. Miracles take place in bad churches too. Not because they are teaching the right things but because God is merciful and have compassionate for those suffering.
More than once to make it clear like hell?and being born again he used 2 metaphors because our flesh is dull in understanding and our spiritual ears are carnally numb
A biblical debate is supposed to only involve biblical evidence. Let the scripture speak for it's self. If you have to go outside of the scripture to try and convince people it's the truth. Then it means you are hiding what you believe behind lies... The scripture is plain. It says exactly what it was meant to say.
Let me preface by saying that I am a staunch conservative Christian, raising my children in The Faith under my God fearing husband. With that said, I am very disappointed as I read these comments. How do you reconcile the women leading the Iranian church today? That’s right. We know because of relief teams there that the Lord is rapidly moving through the Iranian underground church which is predominantly women. Have any of you considered the fact that God uses available and willing vessels? Those who worship me must do so in spirit and truth. What I mean by that is that these women have experienced Christ’s love and are sharing it at the expense of their lives and freedoms. Where are the men? Why is this? Who exactly can God use to preach when the men won’t answer? Why is it that there are little to no men? Only two possible reasons. God hasn’t called many men OR the men are not ANSWERING. God uses faithful and willing vessels. See, this is just one inconvenient truth that must be taken into account. These women are filling a role where there are no males to lead. This isn’t limited to Iran. This is going on worldwide as I follow the Voice of the Martyrs. I want to leave you with this. Of course we know that God’s Word is crystal clear on women Lording over, ruling over, or having authority over men. It is not His perfect order but when there are no men to lead, HE WILL use a willing vessel to accomplish His purposes. Also, I truly believe that a woman must submit to male leadership whenever and wherever possible. This includes her being allowed to preach or teach by her male authority. No woman should Pastor or council a man. I think it’s quite a luxury to even be able to pontificate on this topic. What a privilege we have here in the USA! We have an abundance of male leadership. No one is saying women should take over as head of church. Women are absolutely “qualified” to teach and preach under the authority of a male. Dr. McKissic prevailed here. Hands down. Blessings to all!
THIS!!! THIS 10,000% Those scriptures are being taken to literally! Those scriptures meant for the woman that thought they knew stuff when they didn't. They were being a false prophet just like in this debate from the comments I read, I did not watch it. The man they were defending was being a false prophet from what I understood just by the comments themselves.
I would go a step further and say that these women were definitely called. Who knows why there are no men accepting the call. Perhaps they don’t have tender hearts towards God right now. I dislike the idea that God only calls women when men won’t step up. I’ve heard men use this definition of why God appointed Deborah as judge. I’m just glad women are listening and obeying. They could use these scriptures to not spread the gospel if they took them at face value and did not study why Paul was saying them. Can you imagine if they just shut up and were quiet in their churches, which are probably wherever they can secretly meet, and refused to teach the truth of the gospel? Everyone forgets that the true church is the body of Christ and our bodies are the temple of God.
Error #1 You are interpreting scripture and the Word and will of God by your experience or outward appearance rather than the otherway around; thus performing the very error that the Scriptures taught to thwart. Error #2 You have a poor comprehension of the facts both from a biblical and sociological and cultural stand point. If you had an accurate understanding of the facts, you would understand the reasons for lack of men being saved and therefore in leadership, which creates the void or vacum that God (allows) to be filled by women who are saved (maybe) but does not ordain in the normal order. It is a muslim society and culture not Christian.
You either believe the pastoral epistles or you don't. God's Word is the final authority. People change but God doesn't. Emotionalism, Traditionalism and Demoninalism are going to get people sent to hell.
I enjoyed watching this debate but I was disappointed with Pastor McKissick’s emotional stance on the issue.It was clear that once Pastor Ascol refuted the notion that Phoebe was to be received as someone giving the word authoritatively and that the gift of prophecy and prophecy is defined by God in scripture so that the office of pastor and the gift of prophecy are different,Mckissick still clung to the notion out of emotion,taking a stance of personal experiences,and pride in himself and those who don’t adhere to 1 Tim 2:12 and verses like these. As someone who has been so heavily influenced by women,growing up in a house with all sisters,and matriarchy within my particular home(not entire family) men like this have the tendency to have emotional demeanors when confronted with contradictions and sin,more so than men raised or influenced by men of God who truly believe in inerrancy of scripture. I submit this verse to you all, “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12 KJV Ascol’s questions regarding why Mckissick thinks the way he does was meant to be,and I believe stated, that his defense of women in the church was based in personal experience and not the Word of God.Friends that is a slippery slope into hellfire for many souls. Whenever we hold our personal experiences over the Word of God,we say to God “you were wrong.” This does not keep us penitent and is rooted in pride. This debate,in my estimation,to Mckissick,was to show the SBC that they need to repent,and at this point may have been true,but that wasn’t the point of this debate;he came with an ulterior motive to,in my words “show the oppressed that we can rise up and battle this oppressive hegemony and make sense like they do.” But that’s the thing,at a few different points he didn’t make sense and “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.” 1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV He says on one hand,”SBC has been wrong before and they’re probably wrong now.” And on the other he quotes different members of the SBC...so they’re only right when he quotes them? So if the SBC can’t be trusted all the time,who should you trust all the time?The Lord Himself. “but we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:” 2 Corinthians 1:9 KJV It makes total sense that Paul appeals to creation itself in the function of men and women in the church and his indication that the fall itself tells you that women are not equipped the same way men are to resist temptation reconciling certain matters of emotion and logic,thus The Holy Spirit indicating through Paul that women are not to teach,have authority over a man,and are to keep silent in places of worship,in order to preserve the sanctity of the Body of Christ,and not give foothold to the enemy to cause the church to stumble! Pastor Ascol was right,anyone in true alignment and acceptance of God’s order and sovereignty,won’t feel oppressed by His laws:it’s those who seek their own will that rebel in whatever fashion. I believe the SBC has historically,and currently had major problems but to quote different members to preserve your own argument(indeed it is not the Lord’s) dismiss Ascol for quoting the same and say “they’ve been wrong before.” Is disingenuous and heavily implies that his discernment is superior and it’s clearly not! We are to use the Bible to interpret the world and our experiences,not in reverse. Pastor Mckissick may have repented by now but this line of thinking is ubiquitous in Christendom and needs to be exposed.
The black pastor is not going on scripture he’s going in his feelings. Although I can appreciate his wanting equality in the pulpit, the Bible speaks plainly as to the role of women in the church. At the end of the day we have to adhere to what scripture says. We can not pick and choose which parts of the doctrine we should obey. Yes the times have changed but the Bible in its context has not.
Matthew 6:5-15 The Model Prayer 5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the [b]hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you [c]openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. [d]For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Great debate on this very sensitive issue in the Churches with women accepted and needed in ministry . I learnt from this sensitive debate on Pastoring Preaching and ministering that God has a creative Order as the scriptures were quoted to support spiritual matters in respect to Egalitarianism and Complimentalism in our changing culture of secular humanism invading the churches. Great debate very Educational as Gods word on this issue takes preeminence.
Amen, prophesying is not teaching, atleast by ones own interpretation butvis a direct message, supposedly, test the spirits but a message none the less, from the mouth of God!
@ Matthew , yeah obey Paul or Jesus ?? no rape or sexual abuse ,among pastor men to do what they like ?? woman will not silence , going to bible college then what , God is equal with men and woman , God pour out his spirit upon son and daughter , Jesus give woman more opportunity to speak, should the woman at the well keep her mouth shut ? should Mary the adultery should be stone because of what she done ?? should Mary madalence who found the body of Jesus as 1st One person or should be the other way round as Peter or Thomas should be the 1st One ??? Tell me why was Mary the entire experience with Jesus was taken out of the Bible ???????????????????????????
The issue is bassed on a misunderstanding. Carefuly study the word preach ( euangelidzo, keyruso) in its context an discover that it is not a ministry for the church rather for lost people. The passage in first tim. 2. That forbids women to preach is not the greak word for preaching rather (didascos) this shows that the ministry of making disciples is an intimate relationship with authority witch would not be appropriate for a woman to have over a man for. obvious reasons. The traditional paradigm makes the entire subject confusing. Take off your traditional sun glasses and put yourself in the context of the primitive church and the confusion goes away.
This was a great debate. I 've watched it several times and it seems that brother McKissic contradicted his standards of Biblical interpretation several times.
@end time message no rape or sexual abuse ,among pastor men to do what they like ?? woman will not silence , going to bible college then what , God is equal with men and woman , God pour out his spirit upon son and daughter , Jesus give woman more opportunity to speak, should the woman at the well keep her mouth shut ? should Mary the adultery should be stone because of what she done ?? should Mary madalence who found the body of Jesus as 1st One person or should be the other way round as Peter or Thomas should be the 1st One ??? Tell me why was Mary the entire experience with Jesus was taken out of the Bible ???????????????????????????
1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, “Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Pastor Mckissic gave a good, albeit not biblically founded, lecture for his position. His skills as an orator were incredibly impressive. But in his closing statement when he equated not allowing women to preach from the pulpit on the Lord's Day with racism ("When we allow it overseas...but don't allow it here, practically what we are saying is it's alright for a woman to preach to people of color all over the world they just can't preach to white men over here.") he lost all credibility he had earned in the debate. I was hoping that Pastor Ascol would not let that one slip by but it went without recognition. Overall, good debate but it in no way benefited Pastor Mckissic's position.
The man is wrong. He has a wrong agenda. He has caved to the culture of death and caos. Press him a little bit further and you will have a marxist pro reparations pro democratic liberal preacher.
I think that Pastor Ascol was in fact right not to engage with the closing statement remarks of Pastor Mckissic. According to basic debating rules, The closing statement is not a rebuttal time. You're not supposed to offer new arguments for your position during this time, but rather to summarize your position and your refutation of the opponents arguments for the audience. Bringing up fresh arguments at the last moment is unfair for the other side, since there is no opportunity to rebuttal.
May be Mckissic saw a demonic correlation, and may be Ascol understood it! How come you saw it differently. People also get confused by the term Black lives matter!
Timothy 4:3-4 King James Version (KJV) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Repent .
Given the turbulent times in which we find ourselves globally Christian Bible believers and non. I am trying to process why debates like these need to take place. Surely there are more hard pressing issues that need to be addressed relating to the human condition. If ever the world needs to hear the story of the good news it's now. Whether through the mouths of male or female. Let's return to our first love, get the job done and when Jesus returns all academic arguments and denominational differences will be brought to naught. It's no wonder non believers are confused. As Christians we come across as divided holding differing opinions perspectives on eschatology calvinism relativism existentialism let's get back to basics. Jesus Christ only begotten son of God born of a virgin was crucified for the redemption of humankind so that we might be reconciled to God, spend our lives in Him working out our salvation with gratitude and deeply appreciative for this gift bestowed upon humankind by God.
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I ***suffer not a woman to teach***, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to ***be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Tim 2:11-14 (KJV) That is God's declared Will on the subject, and so is irrevocable! Only the "Devil and his angels" will contend differently, fooling and deceiving the weak and feeble-minded!
Ma'am u are right: this are men of God no doubt; but I think the devil is happy seeing them holding back the gospel with unnecessary debates. If they were Even talking about what women are doing wrong against God, that will be reasonable: but they are instead talking against the good work that women are trying to do in the kingdom. This is actually insane and out of the context of why Paul wrote what he wrote. If they were saying women are usurping authority over men as in the context of Paul, it'll be understood. Paul said they shouldn't teach because they'll try to be violent or aggressive in their art of teaching against not Everyman, but against their own men. If the women in that church could conduct themselves well, Paul won't have band them: so why don't we focus today on why Paul issued that statement and watch if women are doing Same rather than chasing the winds and creating division and confusion in times when much work needs to be done. Paul's bases was on the conduct of a woman, not on her gender. All of this anti women preachers will never be heard castigating a woman of God because of her going astray in doctrinal practices but on mere gender inequalities with make the topic none contextually fitting. Today there's a compiled document of the word that wasn't in those days which was the reason why women couldn't be effective. Today learning in silence of the woman had gain maturity; there's a manual for everyone to use for teaching as it wasn't in those days. This letters of paull and other apostles which made up scriptures today weren't there back then: they weren't compiled as a complete Bible.
@@earnestlycontendingforthef53328:21 Joel 2:28-29 [28]“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. [29]Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
The thing to realize is man only is to speak the truth so the woman can never be blamed for anything which to me is a blessing to the woman and he chose the woman to be the vessel in which people are to be brought into this world which I believe is also a blessing any true woman shall be thankful for these decisions made by the creator,God bless and keep the true woman amen 🙏!
Hallelujah! Thank you GOD provide me with Your WORDS That Are Written in the Bible. The Goals of the Bible is to let me understand GOD better. By using GOD’s WORDS in the Bible, over Time I Myself will be able to Communicate to Holy Spirit. Over time, I Myself will be able to communicate with Lord Jesus. Over time, I Myself will be able to meet My GOD in Lord Jesus Name. I Myself will not worship YOUR WORDS in the Bible Above The LORD, My GOD. I Myself will not dare to “Put the Lord, My GOD to the Test”. FOR YOU “The LORD, MY GOD not only The Lord of those Valleys and Hills, BUT ALL.” FOR YOU “The LORD, My GOD. GOD ALMIGHTY.” Hallelujah.
Women are not to teach, preach, or usurp authority over a man period. It matters not what program or place they're in! Prophesying is totally different than teaching and preaching. So many claim that Jesus had women teachers, and all but they're taking the Word of God out of context and will have to pay for the misleading of people and perversion of His Word.
TRUTH! Proverbs 23:23. They can teach other women and of course children. The Bible is very plain. God is a God of order and His Word shows that. God has a place for everyone. We all have gifts. Praise the LORD!
@@susannahwhite7561 the bible doesn't say...Women can teach other women...Where does it say that ...What scripture??....Paul say let the women keep silent and learn at home...He NEVER said as long as it's other women and children...So if your gonna use that scripture to say women can't preach and teach men...That same scripture said let them keep silent IN THE CHURCH...... periodt.... he basically told them to shut up...
@@StrangeDays25 They key words in your post are troubling. Saying "Probably" and "I doubt it" means you have no idea what they were doing in their worship service. The Bible is not clear on exactly what they did and how they did it. And how do you know they didn't pray in front of people? Did they sing in their worship services? The Bible doesn't give us a clear explanation of exactly what they did in worship services in the first century. We don't have a clear answer on the question and to say you know what they were doing in the church two thousand years ago is disingenuous. You can't possibly know. Neither can I or anyone else in the 21st century.
The First Gentleman just stopped making sense about 3 minutes into his opening remarks. He lost me after the 20th “I think.” This topic is pretty clear in the Bible, which should exclude at least 95% of those “I thinks.”
1787 Black men where only 3/5 human what did the church say at that time. There could have so many different issues solved if the church would have stood up. 1787 would have been an awesome start.
They were deemed 3/5 human BECAUSE the BIBLE said ALL men were created equal and men had to rationalise their treatment of them. Let's not judge the WORD of God by man's manipulation of it for their own reasons....much like their abdication of their leadership roles in the home AND the church.
Why did Pastor Dwight have to bring race into this arguement? He also wasn't quoting the bible. He was just bringing up non-biblical teachings and stories. I would've taken him more seriously and cheered for him if he left race out and pointed to biblical verses that affirmed his position. Good for Pastor Tom for following the bible and not current culture. We don't need political correctness. We need the biblical truth. ✝️
In reference to 1 Timothy look at the whole context. Paul was addressing an issue Timothy was having with an all-female cult who were spreading false teachings. You have to look at the entire setting and understand why that verse was placed there to understand what was going on. If you look at Romans 16 Paul commends plenty of women who were leaders in the church.
1 Timothy epistle = The Whole Context is a Pastoral Letter Paul wrote this epistle with the pastoral ministry in view. The entire letter makes that clear. Roman 16 says nothing about leadership, nothing concerning teaching the Local New Testament and certainly not preaching to assembly. That is being imposed upon 1 Timothy and Romans. You have failed to provide one verse, only opinions.
THANK YOU!!! A woman us NOT to have authority over a man AT ALL!! POINT BLANK! All that means is she is not to have power over him as in question his teachings in church but to wait until they are HOME! That means so that the congregation will NOT think more of her than what she really intents and make assumptions. A woman not teaching on the pulpet just means pretty much the same thing, she is not to correct his teaching, change his teaching or over through. That would be being ignorant! That scripture also means that the woman Paul was writing to where FALSE PROPHETS! They did NOT know what they were talking about so they should keep quite
@@alyssabeale1095 .......Bravo!!! "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Timothy 2:11-14 (KJV)
The fact is Paul was addressing a problem the church,about silent ( making noise) and teaching men ( their husbands) in the sense of disrespecting men ,who are supposed to be head of the house ,it wasn't about teaching .if the church is the bride ( female) of Jesus and he gave the gospel, gifts to his bride for the edification of the his body ,how can one say , women can't , shouldn't teach ,then the church the bride (woman in a marriage) can't or shouldn't teach the gospel ?
Women please bear in mind, on your coming Judgment Day you will be judged on your willingness and obedience to the Divinely endorsed Scripture teachings and instructions that follow. Now, regarding the false teaching for the emancipation of women in the Christian fraternity. Such 21st-century contrived beliefs are in contravention and defiance of the Lord's command for women to remain silent in the church assemblies. "As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God's people), 34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place, just as the Law also says. 35 But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in church [ for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the church]. 36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you? 37 If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge) ***What what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord***. 38 But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [ that it is a command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one whom God knows not]. 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (AMPLIFIED ,BIBLE) Thus if any insist on disregarding the Lord's command for a woman's silence they have become "One whom God knows not" Which is a most undignified and ungodly position any man or woman could possibly find themselves. For even St. Paul's instruction makes it quite plain that women are forbidden to teach men and must not usurp their God given authority. "11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" 1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV)
We have a speaking serpent in the Bible, a talking donkey in the Holy Scriptures, a virgin that conceived in the Word of God, and two men ( Enoch and Elijah) who did not see physical death in the "canon". All of these events happen only once! Hermeneutically, these are all "Exceptions" in the Holy Scriptures, not the "rule". Now suggesting such when approaching the remainder of the Holy Scriptures corrupts the revelation of God. Deborah who was a prophetess and judge cannot be used as precedent for future ministry in the Old Testament temple service or synagogue gatherings and certainly not the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you, Mr. McKissick, for finding the one verse in Scripture that is not inspired, inerrant and infallible. I'm going to cut it out of my Bible right now. I hope Timothy isn't turning in his grave that his book loses a verse. That would be remarkably chauvinistic of him. -- "But did God really say...?" The serpent strikes again.
McKissec is wrong, I'm a woman, I don't need an apology and don't feel oppressed for the something that happened to ears ago. I follow God's word. Not mans. He is trying to teach and preach his feelings.
What does God say in the beginning? The man rules over the woman or household. That is one criteria of being a bishop or pastor in 1 Timothy 3:2-4. (Genesis 3:16) "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and HE shall rule over thee (i.e. the woman Eve). (1 Timothy 3:2-4) "A bishop then must be blameless... {4} one that ruleth HIS own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;"
There is no question with what the Bible says. Why are we even having this conversation? People need to know the Word of God!
You already answered yourself!
@messenger ministries what about Timothy 3? Is it pagan as well? All books written by men. All Major prophets were men. Jesus choose 12 men and Paul after. Was it fake as well? If you don’t like the lord word get out of my religion.
prophecy is not preaching the word this is already out of order.
@@amaledward2147 What a Christian response. Why did Jesus pick only Jewish disciples?
@@Bible33AD God choose Jewish people as his prophets and disciples? Why bother picking someone who dont even pray to the same God of Abraham? Jesus dont have time to teach them what a Messiah even is
It seems that Pastor McKissic's positions are based in his feelings and emotional responses as opposed to God's Word.
@Pk Amponn "Teach one another" is not the same as teaching a congregation. You say Paul tells men and woman to teach again but in the context of teaching a congregation Paul says with the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit that he does not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man because of how original sin entered. I know you mean well, I hope the Holy Spirit gives you eyes to see and ears to hear.
@Pk Amponn Respectfully, I'd ask a few questions:
What does Isaiah 3:12 mean to you?
Does Judges 4:4 mention any appointment, as God does for Othniel, Ehud, Gideon, Jephthah and Samson?
Who was General Barak?
Did Deborah speak publically?
What do Judges 17, 18, 19 and 21 have in common?
@Pk Amponn
Isaiah 3:12
You said "sinful woman and children are not to rule over them."
Are there any non-sinful people? See Proverbs 20:9, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8-10.
David and Gideon lived in completely different times. Even from Deborah, we see Gideon wasn't even born yet. Deborah never commanded an army. Barak did. Deborah never directed an army. Barak did. However, Deborah advised Barak.
Judges 4:4
Deborah's husband was Lappidoth
Judges 4:6
Barak was a commander
Judges 4:8
Barak was a coward
Exodus 23:33
They shall not dwell in your land, lest they make you sin against me; for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you."
Joshua 6:12
The Lord said, "Judah shall go up; behold, I have given the land into his hand."
Judges 1:2
Failure to drive out the inhabitants.
Judges 1:27-36, 2:1-5
A generation who did not know the Lord
Judges 2:10-15
After this, Judges were appointed to save them out of the hand of those who plundered them.
Judges 2 16-23
Othniel
Judges 3:9-10
Ehud
Judges 3:15
Shamgar
Deborah
The people of Israel went to her. She did not go to them.
Judges 4:5
No mention of her speaking publically. She spoke to Barak only.
Gideon called by the Lord
Judges 6:14
Tola and Jair arose
Judges 10:1-3
These go one.
The context is Israel's disobedience. Pausing at Deborah, we are to understand that Barak was not only a coward, he was greedy for glory. Were Judges a good thing for Israel? Sure. Where they also a judgement? Most definitely. The entire book is judgement on Israel. They were taught war. The Lord hates war. No war is started without breaking the 7th commandment. Only then, is war justified and pleasing to the Lord. It is then the only remedy for cruel oppression as seen throughout the book of Judges.
@Pk Amponn No offense, but you are inserting an unbiblical principle into the scriptures to validate something that is not there. Isaiah 3:12 is a scathing condemnation for the sins of a nation if children oppress and women rule over them. They would be sinful if they did so, but the general context is the sinfulness of the nation would bring that type of rule, which is wrong. And to equate that to Deborah in Judges 5 is wrong. First, the judges weren't rulers (kings), they were deliverers. That is the reason Judges 21:25 repeats Judges 17:6, there were no kings during that time. This is also why the last judge, Samuel, was told by God to appoint a king and even then the people wanted the wrong type of king, so they got Saul (1 Samuel 8). Second, in Judges 4:6-8, we see Deborah exhorting Barak to deliver the people like God commanded him, but Barak didn't feel comfortable doing so and needed Deborah's companionship. In other words, Barak was originally told by God to be the judge, but his disobedience led to Deborah (a prophetess) to assist him. She wasn't originally supposed to rule anything; God sent Barak and the fact that Deborah was raised up shows Barak's disobedience and shame in that area. Also Deborah was the wife of Lapidoth (Judges 4:4)
As for Colossians 3:16 and 1 Timothy 4:11, these are general commands for Christians to teach one another. The way God has teaching and preaching in the church in an orderly fashion are laid out in other scriptures. It is bad interpretation to take a general command and insert that it means women can do so in the church (by implication or inference) when the context of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 is a clear didactic set of verses that tell us women shouldn't teach or usurp authority over a man in the church. And as Tom Ascol pointed out, Paul's explanation is the creative order, not cultural. We don't negate culture, but the inspired text says nothing about the culture, but goes back to Genesis 1:27. Again, to insert a cultural reason when the text already gives you a Biblical one is bad interpretation.
And finally, God has roles for men and women that don't negate their worth. Women can certainly proclaim the gospel and teach outside of the preaching of a church congregation (after all, Timothy was brought up by women in the Lord in 2 Timothy 1:5), but this thinking that we can insert feminism (and this is exactly what it is) into the roles and duties in the church is unbiblical. We don't pull out interpretations to make women able to do something in the church because it does damage to God's plain teaching on the subject. (And as you have pointed out in some posts here and others, you deny original sin from Genesis 3:6-15 and Romans 5:12, therefore it is no surprise that if you get that basic doctrine wrong, your understanding of other doctrines will also be skewed.)
@Pk Amponn The Spirit through Paul wrote he does not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. Our ways are not God's ways. Was it misogynistic of God to make a helper for Adam and assign a role for the genders? Both are equal in God's eyes but roles are taught throughout Scripture. God the Father sent God the Son who Obeyed the Father, both being equal yet having separate roles. I believe the Word of God to be just that. I pray you do too.
Tom Ascol stands solely on scripture, God's Word is Law.
Absolutely I agree
There is no biblical evidence of women pastors in the church period. Women however played a roll most definitely but if we are sticking to the scriptures no evidence anywhere.
Dwight McKissic stands solely on scripture
God's word is law!
@@atestring1379 Please use Scripture, am I missing somewhere in Scripture that clearly states women are to be Pastor's?
Ascol said that in 1 Corinthians 14:34, the Apostle Paul says that women should be silent in church. “Paul identifies two activities, teaching and exercising authority over men in the church,” Ascol said.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Ascol said. “Christian women are spiritually gifted like men are. We must reject any attempt to use a gift in a way contrary to God’s word.”
He mentioned:
1Co 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth ...
To prayeth or prophesieth is expected, however Preaching at the Pulpit is different and not Biblically accepted, nor is it oppressive.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man,
McKissic said "...It oppressive and sinful to deny women that opportunity.” Against God's Inspired Word.
1Co 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Heb 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace;
*_God Bless_*
Amien
*Long post warning* I appreciate the debate, though I did grow frustrated with it from time to time.
What I appreciated:
1. Mckissic brought arguments that I had not heard before. Usually, when this position is being debated, the side that affirms female preaching is usually held by someone who does not believe in the inerrancy of the scriptures. Mckissic clearly holds a high view of the Bible and does not want to compromise the importance of its authority.
2. They were cordial and kind toward each other
3. They mostly stuck to the issue at hand
What I did not like:
1. Mckissic repeatedly violated the basic rules of debate. He did this by
A. Speaking over the top of his opponent
B. Asking questions of his opponent, during his opponent's cross-examination time. (This is where Dr. White's "You can ask me that when it is your turn" line comes in handy)
C. Using his own cross-examination time to preach, rather than to cross-examine (this is where Dr. White's "Is that a question" line comes in handy)
These are important rules. They help ensure that the material is properly covered and that the best possible cases are made. Those were very frustrating violations
2. I don't think it would be unfair of me to claim that Mckissic either held a double standard or simply caught himself in a contradiction (you can decide which one) repeatedly. He did this by:
A. Quoting scholars who hold to his position, but then dismissing Ascol's position because some Christians disagree with the position of the scholars that Ascol quoted. So Mckissic can quote scholars who disagree with Ascol's position, but it is invalid for Ascol to quote scholars who disagree with Mckissic's position....because some people disagree with those scholars.
B. When Ascol would make the argument for the historical precedents of his positons, Mckissic would say something along the lines of "Yes, but the church has been so wrong on race and gender issues in the past", he would then turn around and try to make an argument for the historical precedents of his own position...by quoting people.....from the same denomination....that he just dismissed.....for being wrong about things in the past.
3. Mckissic equated complementarianism with abuse. This is either slander, or a slip of the tongue. Either way, I am glad that Ascol shut that down.
4. While Mckissic did attempt to make a biblical case for his position, he relied almost completely on anecdotal evidence, experience, and (I believe it is fair to say) emotional pleas.
5. Honestly, I think that the lowest point in the entire debate took place during Mckissic's closing remarks. When he took this issue and turned it into a race issue....I think it reached a new level of low (that is...granting that point #3 was simply a slip of the tongue). This is a horrible way to think about our brothers and sisters. To accuse us of being fine with women preaching, as long as it is not over a white man is....well...it's disgusting.
I am not simply trying to take it easy on Ascol. I honestly did not find a logical contradiction, a double standard, or even a violation of basic debate etiquette in his presentation. If there was one thing I would want to change about Ascol's presentation, I would simply want him to be more protective of his time, and not allow Mckissic to eat up so much of it with long stories and mini-sermons. But really, that is the Moderator's job most of the time. However, I do understand that this debate was supposed to be more on the friendly side.
I am very thankful for this debate. And I am very thankful that these two brothers both hold to the inerrancy and infallibility of the scripture.
00
If Christians are debating this as an issue it simply means that one part does not love God. Full stop.
Hey man realize this has been posted like a year ago but I like your views and would love, if you desire so to relate with you more on this topic. thnk you
You just summed up my observations as well. I think Mckinssic (Is that how it is spelt?) came to the table thinking having separate roles for the different genders means “abusing” and “oppressing” them.
The difference cannot be more stark, Mckinnsic thinks that Ascol is in sin and is preaching over him. Ascol is expecting a debate but what he got was a sermon.
Hey, this two Dudes just took sides to help us look/cross examine our ignorance on the issue in different angles, it was not meant for competition sir! Just examine yourself and give us your opinion on the matter!
Simple: accept the authority of Scripture and follow it. Simple!
Simple! Amen!
It really is.
They can't. They want to cave to the culture! LBGT is proof! Total EVIL!!
You put aside God's command and obey human teachings. And Jesus continued, "you have a clever way of rejecting God's law in order to uphold your own teaching. Mark 7:8-9
I believe the word of God is powerful and above us
We should not bring personal experiences and try to compare to the word
I agree with pastor Tom
Thanks to Dr.Ascol,he has been full of grace in his remarks,well seasoned and tackles the opponent with kindness,he is really a Christian to emulate search a scenario.Congratulions Ascol
Wow! Great example of graciousness by pastor Tom. Much to learn from how he handled this.
I agree 👍 with Pastor Tom Ascol🙏
One man is guided by what's written in the Bible. The other man is guided by the feelings and emotions of men. One will do anything to secure his paycheck. The other will only say what the Bible says. One believes the Bible as it is written. The other man doesn't believe the Bible. In the end, it comes down to this one thing. It sounds like one man was called, but the other man chooses preaching as his career according to his personal feelings. That's the problem here. This debate shouldn't happen if the Bible was accepted and believed.
💯
I feel the same thing....l totaly agree 🙏
agreed.
💯
WE HAVE TO BE TOLERANT!!
It seems that one side says: "This is what God said and continues to say" (Ascol) and the other saying " Did He really?" (Mckissic). McKissic argument and hermeneutical approach is feeling and emotion based. Its the same approach currently being used by the Gay "christian" movement.; infiltrate the church, undermine the word of God and eventually try to destroy the church.
Genesis 3:1 ... "Did God really says"..
God is in charge
Well said. Spiritual warfare.
Good Lord, so true.
Thank God our Father and the LORD Jesus that He helped you see that and come to that conclusion. The very principle revealed in the Garden of Eden by satan is revealed in this debate and you observation. Well said.
A 1 hour and 36 min debate that I can sum up in one second....NAH!
I had the opportunity to meet Pastor McKissic a few months ago for breakfast while he was here in Houston. Very gracious and warm conversation we had concerning this very subject.
A funny story occurred that day that I must share here. I remember before ending our conversation he informed me about his upcoming debate with Tom Ascol and asked if I had any resources that would help better buttress his position. I asked him which position did he support? He said he supports women preaching and teaching in the church.
I said, "I got nothing for ya, Doc!" 😉😂
Let's be friends on Facebook :Joshua Zeegers
That ending seems rather curt for being directed to a 'gracious and warm' conversationalist, I must say.
neither dose the bible
Who wins the race, in the the NASCAR competition, the car Driver or the Team? Yes it is not a trick question, but be careful it can be tricky to some!
😂
"Let's be honest. The question on women preachers is not something that God's word is unclear about. What God says is not unclear, its just unpopular." - Tom Ascol
Don't really know what to say to that!
I know what to say..."Amen!!"
In the bible, YAHWEH chose a woman to be His prophet..the bible says prophets are the best teachers..if YAHWEH CHOSE WOMAN TO BE A TEACHER OF GOD'S WORD..WHO IS MAN TO OPPOSE IT..
PAUL WILL NOT CONTRADICT GOD..o
It is only man who contradicts the bible word..contradiction is misnterpretation ..misinterpretation is false teaching
@@janettemuana8614 I would appreciate any scriptural references you have to back up your 2 claims. Claim #1: Yahweh chose a woman to be His prophet. Claim #2: The Bible says prophets are the best teachers.... Also, from the sounds of it, you reject Paul's writings as scripture inspired by God (2Tim 3:16-17). Where and how do you draw the line on what is and what isn't scripture, if you don't accept the Canon as it is?
Thanks
@@janettemuana8614 you Jezabel, support your claim with scriptures whenever you say "the bible says".
“And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.”
Matthew 28:9-10 KJV
www.bible.com/1/mat.28.9-10.kjv
I'm sorry but the black dude is basing his argument on issues that have nothing to do with scripture .
Very true.. and leave him troubling
@@thisgeneration2894 No he does, he is just too deep! He is speaking of the tree by describing very well of the "FRUIT"!
@@savedmanmuathime2642 Romans 1:22-32
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
OUT OF ALL HE SAID, YOU STILL CAN'T DENY THIS SCRIPTURE
1 Timothy 2:12
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
THE WORD SAYS PROPHESY, NOT PREACH OR TEACH
What happens where the males are not saved and there is a woman who fears and loves the Lord? Will there not be the spirit of Deborah?
I understand where there is the presence of the male men who loves and fears the Lord, then there should be order!
Read Judges chapter 4
8 Barak said to her, “If you go with me, I will go; but if you don’t go with me, I won’t go.”
9 “Certainly I will go with you,” said Deborah. “But because of the course you are taking, the honor will not be yours, for the Lord will deliver Sisera into the hands of a woman.” So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh.(V) 10 There Barak summoned(W) Zebulun and Naphtali, and ten thousand men went up under his command. Deborah also went up with him.
Where the male men is spiritually asleep, God will a-times use women for leadership!
I love me some Tom Ascol! He is a very gracious man even on a topic he disagrees on. Tries to be clear as he speaks and most of all stands on the word of God
Thank you, brother. You are too kind!
You were busy listening to the PERFORMANCE, try again and listen to the issues!
Dwight won,cause he used Bible
Maybe both of you are wrong. We are assuming that church practice of the the 21st century is the same as what was happening in the 1st century. It is doubtful that people met in huge buildings in which they sat in rows listening to Bible exposition. Churches were home based and more relational and interactive than our current religious culture. Both of you are starting with wrong assumptions about how churches operated therefore the conclusions are erroneous.
@@savedmanmuathime2642 😊
A lot of conflation and experience-driven approaches on Pastor McKissic's part. Women not being allowed to vote, Jim Crow and segregation has NOTHING to do with women being prohibited from teaching and preaching in the LORD'S CHURCH!
Bro McKissic's argument was very weak!!
Another example of using American culture to interpret the Word of God.
@@hamcom5477 exactly what went on in this debate.... exactly what is happening in the church by large.
Ahem! *Corinthians 14:34-35*
NT Wright? Scott McKnight ? In response to an expert reference analyzing the contextual history of first century Ephesus ?
Jim Crow - Segregation ? For the love of Pete …
McKissic Speaks out of both sides of his mouth and then becomes highly defensive… Does he even know what a hermeneutic is?
“As long as the man is the pastor, I’m ok…” lol He’s all over the place….
Years ago before his departure, I asked One of my deceased mentors ( whose name I won’t mention), known as undeniably the greatest theological scholar of his time, what Biblical support did he have for women preachers? He responded, “ well I don’t support it from a Biblical posture…” I then kinda tuned out.
The Bible does not support women in this position of church authority. It has become culturally acceptable based on the successful rise of feminism, but the church must not be echoes of the world.
LOL!
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I ***suffer not a woman to teach***, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to ***be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression"
1 Tim 2:11-14 (KJV)
That is God's declared Will on the subject, and so is irrevocable!
Only the "Devil and his angels" will contend differently, fooling and deceiving the weak and feeble-minded!
This scripture can be interpreted in reference to a man and woman in a marriage relationship. In other words the husband is the head of the wife. A man outside of that marriage covenant cannot be the head of another mans wife. So in relation to the church, one can argue that women are not restricted from teaching and leading men in general, if they are in submission and under the headship of her husband
@messenger ministries do you mean, Emma stark is more than the Bible? Canonical 66 books are accepted as God's inspiration. Even the early version is the same. Kindly don't misguide the people . You yourself try to find the various versions and read that and even look into the older version.
@@earnestlycontendingforthef5332 real question for you. Does your Church services look anything remotely like what the Apostle Paul wrote? Tell me how many gifts of the Spirit are being exercised where you attend. I'm very curious to know.
Oh this is an easy one. No debate needed. No.
@Pk Amponn You must read the text in context. If you continued to 1 Corinthians 14:34 you would see "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says." Also listen to the response at 1:27:39
Affirmative
I agree no need of debate on this issue the Bible is clear
@@samrhodes3510 Why did they say that, the women would yell to there husbands (wanting to know what was said or understand what he meant) while in church plus they had to sit away from there husbands, those were the rules. Please read more of the Bible and you will see the truth and do some fasting while praying and God will answer you.
Praise God for men like Dr Ascol!
Silence is not talking about singing it's talking about teaching
Thank you! We need more debates like this. Performed graciously for the one goal of glorifying God. I will say that Mckissic used a method of arguing that is in error. History, and what some have done in the past does not validate what God says on a matter. Also, equating white/black to man/woman is also illogical. God did not assign roles to black/white but He did to man/woman. Thank you again for this video. All glory to God!
Amen
what roles?
The church supports women who go to the mission field to preach the gospel or even stand on the sidewalk handing out tracts and telling others of the good news.
But when a woman steps inside the church to preach the exact same message she is labeled a heretic, rebellious, disobedient.
If the church building were to blow away in a tornado leaving an empty lot, could she then stand where the church once stood and preach the gospel?
P.S. The early church did not have pulpits or what we call church buildings. They met in private homes.
Pulpits and church buildings came in centuries later. Women were there from the beginning.
@susanbarackman-artist7670 Preaching, as in the Great Commission, is different from shepharding a flock. Being a spiritual leader. Scripture is clear on roles.
@@PhoenixPestControlTN saying the bible is clear is a way of shutting down discussion....actually the bible says we see through a glass darkly
how do you explain the underground church in iran led by women? why didn't God call a man?
or Soujourner Truth, black ex=slave and 2 quaker women in the civil war south, told by God to preach against slavery?
Amen❤
Paul set the standards that we should follow.When we change something then we can change it all.
THE WORKS of the HOLY SPIRIT, receive Him, He's got it all!
@manofgod9843-Paul had no authority! Jesus was the authority and he did not give anyone not even the disciples authority!
Voddie Baucham would say...
“if you can’t say Amen, just say OUCH!”
Yep, try silence too, even a silent fool can be deemed wise!
Thank God for men like Tom Ascol....FYI though, Voddie Baucham only has credibility amongst White Unregenerate American Evangelicals. However, he is smart enough to get your vote, qualifying himself for a piece of the American Patriotic Pie!
Ouch I love the word of God but this one hurts .
@@Testifydesignfactorywhat is it your trying to say with this comment? Your saying voddies following is unregenerate white people? I would surely surely hope that’s not what your saying
😂
I so appreciated the Christian friendship that was apparent even though you both have very different views on the subject. Tom Ascol was especially level and kind.
TOPIC?
McKissic's last comment in his closing statement is very telling as to why he ultimately doesn't want to adhere to clear scripture. Just because evil people take advantage of the submission of faithful Christians, doesn't mean submission isn't what God called us to do.
GREAT ANGLE!
Brilliantly debated Pastor Tom! Bravo!
The problem with playing loose with the text on something like this, is chances are they’re playing loose with other parts of the text
I agree with Tom and I am a black woman. The other speaker is all over the place. The scriptures can not be changed. They are what they are.
He turned the rules of the Bible into a issue of race. Wow. A mess
I agree with you my sister it have nothing to do with race the word is the word God word he is bringing his own believes and ideology.
Numbers 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation, 27:17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the LORD be not as sheep which have no shepherd.
No comments
1 Timothy
“I do not permit a woman to teach nor to have authority over a man.”
Do more research besides that one scripture. A woman needed to learn before they speak in that scripture. Things needed to be order. It’s like If you didn’t understand a topic but added your input, you might as well keep silent until you know what you are talking about.
@@ericac.4316 I noticed you didn’t back any of that up with any scripture, you just gave me your own Opinion.
Explain what God means by he does not permit a woman to have authority over a man or to speak in church they are to keep quiet explain what God means
@@ericac.4316 don’t do research about GOD’s WORDS, ask GOD directly. He will Bless you His WORDS in Jesus name.
@@fireandgrace9456 right and as a woman I agree with God he said keep silent in the church so she isn't preaching at all and women teach other women is what he said
@@LuvDet6564 God over Christ, Christ over man, man over woman, and women over children..
Mckissic is sadly inconsistent and arbitrary in his approach.
And the word of God doesn't change according to times...
"KONSTANT"!
I agree with Tom.. period!!!
As a blk woman I agree with the white guy cos I ❤️ God and Gods Word!!
As much as I don't want this to be the case, there seems to be a sweeping Romans 1 issue in the modern Church setting. People are intentionally suppressing the Truth in unrighteousness. Elevating Creation (in this case women) over Gods clear instruction.
Thank you Tom Ascol!
"Let [your] women be silent in the assemblies, for it is not permitted to them to speak; but to be in subjection, as the law also says."
"I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness...".
What is debatable?
I suggest my short essay on Deborah. God ruled Israel through the Judges. A Judge was the most important spiritual leader of this time period, according to scripture.
I'm watching this in October 2021. If Dr. M is missing it on race in the Kingdom, I must conclude he's missing it on women preachers. We need more biblical truths and zero cultural and emotional driven conclusions. I have questions about tithing and Hell. For now, I must go with the biblical interpretations of the Reformist preachers until I learn better.
We must follow the truth in God's Word
Which question about tithing and hell ?
He lost the debate when he played the race/slavery card.
I don't think so , its a valid point. The bible has been used as a weapon during that time, but it was not the subject. Wish he had used more scripture for his point.
@@godlovesrivera9343 scripture doesn't back his point at all. Race card is pathetic. The bible never condones racism
@@andrewk8636 I agree. God created all of us. Sin cause us to hate each other. I personally don’t HATE no race but don’t like their ways.
He lost NOTHING, why are you focused on the COMPETION, contrary, he is an OUTCRY that represents something you may never know! Don't focus on the PERFORMANCE, otherwise you will miss the BIG PICTURE!
This was the Greatest spirit filled Debate I have Ever watched!👏👏👏👏👏👏👏Great Job♥
Finally, You seem to be the only one who was LISTENING!
Looks for a church of Christ near you,
God is so good that he actually made the scripture very simple & clear..Therefore it should be easy to detect who's misinterpreting the text; the bigger the lie the bigger the explanation
I'm an African American minister here in Virginia. Thanks to men like Dwight and other unlearned church goers it's almost impossible to find a fellowship that will bring in a man who oppose women preachers. I left the national baptist convention church I was raised in, licensed and ordained in. Now they have a woman leading them.
When he and his ilk is done with the SBC, you will be just like the NBC.
All anyone has to do in this discussion is Read, Listen and obey the word of God.
Dennis Dabney amen, my own pastor, who happens to be a white man, was ordained in the National Baptist Convention, has said that the Black Church is dominated by women. God bless you, Rev. Praying for you.
@@paulheadley1737 Brother Headley,
Thank you sir for your comment and more importantly your prayers. To some this shift in the ministry of word from what it was in the 60's and 70's has the so-called blessing of the civil rights moment. This was a grave error on the part of my kinsmen according to the flesh to give women the opportunity to teach the word of God and preach the gospel when the assembly has come together in the name of equality.
This decision has and will further weaken the local New Testament church according to the Holy Scriptures.
The Spirit of God was clear as to why women can't teach and usurp authority over the man. He gave four conditions which made what is transpiring currently in the local assemblies forbidden.
1. Adam was created first.
2. Eve was created after him, and not before he had received the Word of God and subsequently joined the Lord God as he worked in the Garden of Eden.
3. He was not decieved.
4. The woman was decieved as she discussed the Word of God with the serpent and as she taught her husband as he listened to her words. Genesis 3:17.
@@dennisdabney4039 Awesome, bro! I agree with you! Let's be friends on Facebook: Joshua Zeegers is my name. We really should unite about this subject.
I laugh and the Lord laughs at all the people who teach that women should even speak in church. Hate me all you want. You can have your one world religion. I will follow The Word of God. Your prayers are not heard unless you repent. Please stop pretending to obey God.
in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing, but, which is proper for women professing godliness, with good works. Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
I Timothy 2:9-15 NKJV
bible.com/bible/114/1ti.2.9-15.NKJV
For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 14:33-40 ESV
bible.com/bible/59/1co.14.33-40.ESV
@@StrangeDays25 Thanks Bro Joshua. I appreciate your response to my comment on the subject. At this point I am not on Facebook but may consider joining this year if for no other reason to address this matter.
I look forward to speaking with you soon my friend.
May the Lord richly bless you and yours.
@@dennisdabney4039 Thanks, please pray for me, as I am an American living in the Philippines. Please remember that God promised that you would do greater things than he did.
Sometimes the problem with us is we try to interpret God’s Word based on our feeling and thinking. If part of the word doesn’t make sense to us then it can’t be what it says. If we don’t feel right about the Word, then it isn’t what it says. These are the similar arguments used to say how can a loving God send people to hell? If there’s God and He is good how come He allows evil? How can God hate? We can’t decide which scripture to obey and which to disobey based on our senses. Dependence on senses was why Isaac was deceived by Jacob. We must obey the Word regardless of how we feel about it.
Dwight's arguments can be used to justify homosexuality and any other deviation from scripture.
It is written in the New Testament that women are cited to not have the right to become PASTORS or PRIESTS. One of these is found in 1 TIMOTHY 2:12...Also noted in 1 CORINTHIANS 11:3-12; 14:34,35:1 TIMOTHY 2:11-15 and TITUS1,2. These passages are for the foundation for the conclusion that WOMEN CANNOT BE LEAD PASTORS IN CHURCHES 😇🙏🙏🙏
Thank you Mr. Tom Ascol
God was the same then ,now and forever is understood by some but not by all Pastors , and some Christians. It is very important to teach God’s Word correctly. His Word is easy to understand. Women need to be obedient unto God.
Have you ever noticed that a person who is wrong can never answer a simple question . They always have to go off topic. Do not be deceived the truth can be answered directly.....always be ready to give account for what you believe. The Bible doesn't give permission for woman to be pastors or to teach the Bible from the pulpit to mixed congregations.....stick with the word.
I agree! A person who permits women.. doesn’t agree of what the scriptures said. It is not hard to understand, but simple it is hard to swallow.
What Women preachers got to do with racism?! 🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️🤦🏾♀️
Dr. Mckissic got me confused. Wish he would had expounded on the Scriptures rather than relying so much on scholars and experience. It is hard to debate Mckissic. I wouldn't have wasted my time debating Mckissic especially since he made a near race issue.
God's Words Never Outdates. It's Eternal. Amen
Tom Aschol is very well-spoken in this debate. I agree with him..as I think he brings Biblical clarity to the subject. We recently left a church where women just treated the church service like a free for all. The piano player would speak out of her own accord whenever she felt like it...alot of gibberish. Male leadership should not compromise in this.
Pastor Mckissic is a very smart man and very very knowledgeable in the scriptures. I give him so much props for that. But at the end when they are going back and forth discussing the issue, its alot of personal opinion and alot "I feel." Very smart man and very well knowledgeable in the bible. But the bible makes it very clear that women should not usurp authority over man.
He was trying to use alot of words to his the fact that everything he said he feels, is his opinion.
Truly,
Yep, the Devil used the serpent, he is never upfront, he is now using DEVICES, he is a master of deception!
@Angel you doing what Paul says but Jesus give woman an opportunity , I say no no rape or sexual abuse ,among pastor men to do what they like ?? woman will not silence , going to bible college then what , God is equal with men and woman , God pour out his spirit upon son and daughter , Jesus give woman more opportunity to speak, should the woman at the well keep her mouth shut ? should Mary the adultery should be stone because of what she done ?? should Mary madalence who found the body of Jesus as 1st One person or should be the other way round as Peter or Thomas should be the 1st One ??? Tell me why was Mary the entire experience with Jesus was taken out of the Bible ???????????????????????????
1:35:48 This sums up the debate: "Exegetically, I'm not there." Then he refers to emotions.
Scripture clearly states. A seeking the office of a bishop (he) is to be a (husband)of one wife. He is male.
We are dealing with Biblical outlines, not what we think or want. I do not find anything in the Bible that says anything about a woman preaching or teaching. In Corinthians Paul admonishes the women to be silent. It most likely had something to do with the church in Corinth more than women in general although in Judaism, women were not even allowed to participate in the service with the men, nor were they acceptable witnesses. But the real question is whether women can or should be pastors. That is a far greater role than teacher or preacher. I guess I am oldfashioned. Teach and preach, but do not pastor.
Great debate..personally I’m in a journey to hear female pastors and their biblical interpretation as a general experience for the foreseeable future. My prayer is that more women become pastors and I will celebrate them when they do. We are fully educated and capable in 2023 of being experts and ministers of Biblical word and men would gain much by listening.
Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman
can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God.
A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin.
A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting.
Scripture says in the latter days men would have eching ears, Scripture says there's nothing new under the sun.
No the elders who sat at the gate were men, spiritual leaders and a judge is different.
@@anthonyhuggins1789
Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV
(In case the reader in unaware, the word pastor and the word
shepherd are the same word. I prefer shepherd, because it has
obvious meaning to the average person.)
Major modern English translations like the NASB use
the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
Some believe that pastor (or shepherd), is a position that
was created in the New Covenant. This is not true. In the Old Testament
shepherds are mentioned multiple times. Often in a negative way.
“My people have become lost sheep;
Their shepherds have led them astray.
-excerpt Jeremiah 50
For an entire chapter on worthless shepherds, the reader may
check out Ezekiel 34.
I recently have been considering leaving my church for reasons applying to this. We have 30 women’s groups and. Zero men’s groups outside of a one hr once a month bible study! Pastor tiptoes around this topic obviously not to offend the feminists and the lesbian spirit that has run rampant in our culture lately! This is unacceptable to me for reasons being clearly stated in scripture that the man is the head... how can our church teach men to be the head and to express biblical, natural leadership in our households if they only teach women and don’t even offer anything to teach biblical manhood and biblical directions to being the head Of household and main leader and disciple of our own families! This is a HUGE problem in our modern day churches and mine is losing a contributing and dedicated member bcuz of the adaptation to the spirit of the age which is evil, and satanic and against the word of God in sooo many ways
The Bible does however tell older women to instruct younger women. The idea of a women's group isn't necessarily anti-scriptural, but it is unfortunate that your church seems to be lacking men who are willing to lead like the women are. Have you perhaps thought about stepping up and putting something together?
Sir.. we are individualized church of God in SPIRIT..GOD deals with us individually.. just like God will judge us individually...
it is our responsiblity to cry out unto GOD to have an encounter to GOD..THE LORD WILL DO THAT TO YOU...CRY AND ASK MERCY TO GOD TO OPEN YOUR EYES TO THE TRUTH...GOD ANSWERS PRAYERS OF THOSE WHO SEEK HIM...GOD WILL SHOW YOU THE MYSTERY OF THE BIBLE.
Drenathor yes my “old” church preaches biblical manhood and leadership but doesn’t offer the gatherings or classes or groups to teach us men how to do that! But have at least 30 women’s groups! Which to me tells me they have adopted to this feminist culture and aren’t interested in teaching or encouraging men to be biblicala nd to lead and disciple their families. But they are teaching their women to do that. The churches adapting and encouraging the culture is a huge red flag for me! It should be for everyone!! It is the main reason why people are turning from God and believe Christianity to be hypocritical! “Practice what you preach” even Barry White knew that one lol.
I left that church. Another thing is my pastor told me he wanted to start a mans group which I was excited about and offered to run it however he wanted but then he told me it would have to be secret😳😳 wtheck is that about?? Why would it need to be secret! That was the final straw for me!
Leave now
@@Lambdamale.
If that church has that many feminists and then you say lesbians??? !!!!!! Or they are pro lesbian? If that's truly the case, run, don't walk out of that church, get out of there. One of the reasons of women wanting to lead and women wanting to teach and women wanting to be pastors is because of the weak men are not strong in scriptures they are weak and spiritual wimps, all over the nation and that's why we have feminists so much in the Church, weak men and weak pastors.
Preach and teach are 2 different things. We should follow God’s words, not experiences nor feelings. Miracles take place in bad churches too. Not because they are teaching the right things but because God is merciful and have compassionate for those suffering.
D M said this is the only time we build a doctrine on one verse. How many times does God have to say something to make it true?
More than once to make it clear like hell?and being born again he used 2 metaphors because our flesh is dull in understanding and our spiritual ears are carnally numb
I’m new. I read the KJV Bible and I understand, from reading it, women are not to preach in the Church
Clarification: scripture is very clear with role and function distinctions
You have EYES THAT CAN SEE!
A biblical debate is supposed to only involve biblical evidence. Let the scripture speak for it's self. If you have to go outside of the scripture to try and convince people it's the truth. Then it means you are hiding what you believe behind lies... The scripture is plain. It says exactly what it was meant to say.
Let me preface by saying that I am a staunch conservative Christian, raising my children in The Faith under my God fearing husband. With that said, I am very disappointed as I read these comments. How do you reconcile the women leading the Iranian church today? That’s right. We know because of relief teams there that the Lord is rapidly moving through the Iranian underground church which is predominantly women. Have any of you considered the fact that God uses available and willing vessels? Those who worship me must do so in spirit and truth. What I mean by that is that these women have experienced Christ’s love and are sharing it at the expense of their lives and freedoms. Where are the men? Why is this? Who exactly can God use to preach when the men won’t answer? Why is it that there are little to no men? Only two possible reasons. God hasn’t called many men OR the men are not ANSWERING. God uses faithful and willing vessels. See, this is just one inconvenient truth that must be taken into account. These women are filling a role where there are no males to lead. This isn’t limited to Iran. This is going on worldwide as I follow the Voice of the Martyrs. I want to leave you with this. Of course we know that God’s Word is crystal clear on women Lording over, ruling over, or having authority over men. It is not His perfect order but when there are no men to lead, HE WILL use a willing vessel to accomplish His purposes. Also, I truly believe that a woman must submit to male leadership whenever and wherever possible. This includes her being allowed to preach or teach by her male authority. No woman should Pastor or council a man. I think it’s quite a luxury to even be able to pontificate on this topic. What a privilege we have here in the USA! We have an abundance of male leadership. No one is saying women should take over as head of church. Women are absolutely “qualified” to teach and preach under the authority of a male. Dr. McKissic prevailed here. Hands down. Blessings to all!
THIS!!! THIS 10,000% Those scriptures are being taken to literally! Those scriptures meant for the woman that thought they knew stuff when they didn't. They were being a false prophet just like in this debate from the comments I read, I did not watch it. The man they were defending was being a false prophet from what I understood just by the comments themselves.
I would go a step further and say that these women were definitely called. Who knows why there are no men accepting the call. Perhaps they don’t have tender hearts towards God right now. I dislike the idea that God only calls women when men won’t step up. I’ve heard men use this definition of why God appointed Deborah as judge. I’m just glad women are listening and obeying. They could use these scriptures to not spread the gospel if they took them at face value and did not study why Paul was saying them. Can you imagine if they just shut up and were quiet in their churches, which are probably wherever they can secretly meet, and refused to teach the truth of the gospel? Everyone forgets that the true church is the body of Christ and our bodies are the temple of God.
Error #1 You are interpreting scripture and the Word and will of God by your experience or outward appearance rather than the otherway around; thus performing the very error that the Scriptures taught to thwart.
Error #2 You have a poor comprehension of the facts both from a biblical and sociological and cultural stand point. If you had an accurate understanding of the facts, you would understand the reasons for lack of men being saved and therefore in leadership, which creates the void or vacum that God (allows) to be filled by women who are saved (maybe) but does not ordain in the normal order. It is a muslim society and culture not Christian.
You either believe the pastoral epistles or you don't. God's Word is the final authority. People change but God doesn't. Emotionalism, Traditionalism and Demoninalism are going to get people sent to hell.
Obedience is better than sacrifice.
I enjoyed watching this debate but I was disappointed with Pastor McKissick’s emotional stance on the issue.It was clear that once Pastor Ascol refuted the notion that Phoebe was to be received as someone giving the word authoritatively and that the gift of prophecy and prophecy is defined by God in scripture so that the office of pastor and the gift of prophecy are different,Mckissick still clung to the notion out of emotion,taking a stance of personal experiences,and pride in himself and those who don’t adhere to 1 Tim 2:12 and verses like these.
As someone who has been so heavily influenced by women,growing up in a house with all sisters,and matriarchy within my particular home(not entire family) men like this have the tendency to have emotional demeanors when confronted with contradictions and sin,more so than men raised or influenced by men of God who truly believe in inerrancy of scripture.
I submit this verse to you all,
“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.”
Hebrews 4:12 KJV
Ascol’s questions regarding why Mckissick thinks the way he does was meant to be,and I believe stated, that his defense of women in the church was based in personal experience and not the Word of God.Friends that is a slippery slope into hellfire for many souls.
Whenever we hold our personal experiences over the Word of God,we say to God “you were wrong.” This does not keep us penitent and is rooted in pride.
This debate,in my estimation,to Mckissick,was to show the SBC that they need to repent,and at this point may have been true,but that wasn’t the point of this debate;he came with an ulterior motive to,in my words “show the oppressed that we can rise up and battle this oppressive hegemony and make sense like they do.”
But that’s the thing,at a few different points he didn’t make sense and
“For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.”
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJV
He says on one hand,”SBC has been wrong before and they’re probably wrong now.” And on the other he quotes different members of the SBC...so they’re only right when he quotes them?
So if the SBC can’t be trusted all the time,who should you trust all the time?The Lord Himself.
“but we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:”
2 Corinthians 1:9 KJV
It makes total sense that Paul appeals to creation itself in the function of men and women in the church and his indication that the fall itself tells you that women are not equipped the same way men are to resist temptation reconciling certain matters of emotion and logic,thus The Holy Spirit indicating through Paul that women are not to teach,have authority over a man,and are to keep silent in places of worship,in order to preserve the sanctity of the Body of Christ,and not give foothold to the enemy to cause the church to stumble!
Pastor Ascol was right,anyone in true alignment and acceptance of God’s order and sovereignty,won’t feel oppressed by His laws:it’s those who seek their own will that rebel in whatever fashion.
I believe the SBC has historically,and currently had major problems but to quote different members to preserve your own argument(indeed it is not the Lord’s) dismiss Ascol for quoting the same and say “they’ve been wrong before.” Is disingenuous and heavily implies that his discernment is superior and it’s clearly not!
We are to use the Bible to interpret the world and our experiences,not in reverse.
Pastor Mckissick may have repented by now but this line of thinking is ubiquitous in Christendom and needs to be exposed.
Women shouldn’t preach, according to Scripture. People just keep wanting to tickle those ears and do what they want, instead of what God says. 🤷🏼♀️
The black pastor is not going on scripture he’s going in his feelings. Although I can appreciate his wanting equality in the pulpit, the Bible speaks plainly as to the role of women in the church. At the end of the day we have to adhere to what scripture says.
We can not pick and choose which parts of the doctrine we should obey. Yes the times have changed but the Bible in its context has not.
Matthew 6:5-15
The Model Prayer
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the [b]hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you [c]openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9 In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11
Give us this day our daily bread.
12
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
[d]For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Great debate on this very sensitive issue in the Churches with women accepted and needed in ministry . I learnt from this sensitive debate on Pastoring Preaching and ministering that God has a creative Order as the scriptures were quoted to support spiritual matters in respect to Egalitarianism and Complimentalism in our changing culture of secular humanism invading the churches. Great debate very Educational as Gods word on this issue takes preeminence.
Amen, prophesying is not teaching, atleast by ones own interpretation butvis a direct message, supposedly, test the spirits but a message none the less, from the mouth of God!
No women apostles,no women priests in the old testaments. That should settle debate.
....but sparks alot of good and great questions if you have the humility to swallow the Biblical answers!
@ Matthew , yeah obey Paul or Jesus ?? no rape or sexual abuse ,among pastor men to do what they like ?? woman will not silence , going to bible college then what , God is equal with men and woman , God pour out his spirit upon son and daughter , Jesus give woman more opportunity to speak, should the woman at the well keep her mouth shut ? should Mary the adultery should be stone because of what she done ?? should Mary madalence who found the body of Jesus as 1st One person or should be the other way round as Peter or Thomas should be the 1st One ??? Tell me why was Mary the entire experience with Jesus was taken out of the Bible ???????????????????????????
I do agree with Tom. He is using the word of God correctly. 😊
The issue is bassed on a misunderstanding. Carefuly study the word preach ( euangelidzo, keyruso) in its context an discover that it is not a ministry for the church rather for lost people. The passage in first tim. 2. That forbids women to preach is not the greak word for preaching rather (didascos) this shows that the ministry of making disciples is an intimate relationship with authority witch would not be appropriate for a woman to have over a man for. obvious reasons. The traditional paradigm makes the entire subject confusing. Take off your traditional sun glasses and put yourself in the context of the primitive church and the confusion goes away.
Yes!
This was a great debate. I 've watched it several times and it seems that brother McKissic contradicted his standards of Biblical interpretation several times.
Direct answer is she should not preach or be a pastor but she can testify .
@end time message no rape or sexual abuse ,among pastor men to do what they like ?? woman will not silence , going to bible college then what , God is equal with men and woman , God pour out his spirit upon son and daughter , Jesus give woman more opportunity to speak, should the woman at the well keep her mouth shut ? should Mary the adultery should be stone because of what she done ?? should Mary madalence who found the body of Jesus as 1st One person or should be the other way round as Peter or Thomas should be the 1st One ??? Tell me why was Mary the entire experience with Jesus was taken out of the Bible ???????????????????????????
1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, “Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
Pastor Mckissic gave a good, albeit not biblically founded, lecture for his position. His skills as an orator were incredibly impressive. But in his closing statement when he equated not allowing women to preach from the pulpit on the Lord's Day with racism ("When we allow it overseas...but don't allow it here, practically what we are saying is it's alright for a woman to preach to people of color all over the world they just can't preach to white men over here.") he lost all credibility he had earned in the debate. I was hoping that Pastor Ascol would not let that one slip by but it went without recognition.
Overall, good debate but it in no way benefited Pastor Mckissic's position.
The man is wrong. He has a wrong agenda. He has caved to the culture of death and caos. Press him a little bit further and you will have a marxist pro reparations pro democratic liberal preacher.
I actually mentioned that same thing in my comment. It was shocking, honestly.
I think that Pastor Ascol was in fact right not to engage with the closing statement remarks of Pastor Mckissic.
According to basic debating rules, The closing statement is not a rebuttal time. You're not supposed to offer new arguments for your position during this time, but rather to summarize your position and your refutation of the opponents arguments for the audience.
Bringing up fresh arguments at the last moment is unfair for the other side, since there is no opportunity to rebuttal.
@Missy B That's not the specific issue addressed here. Did you watch the video?
May be Mckissic saw a demonic correlation, and may be Ascol understood it! How come you saw it differently. People also get confused by the term Black lives matter!
Timothy 4:3-4 King James Version (KJV)
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Repent .
Given the turbulent times in which we find ourselves globally Christian Bible believers and non. I am trying to process why debates like these need to take place. Surely there are more hard pressing issues that need to be addressed relating to the human condition. If ever the world needs to hear the story of the good news it's now. Whether through the mouths of male or female. Let's return to our first love, get the job done and when Jesus returns all academic arguments and denominational differences will be brought to naught. It's no wonder non believers are confused. As Christians we come across as divided holding differing opinions perspectives on eschatology calvinism relativism existentialism let's get back to basics. Jesus Christ only begotten son of God born of a virgin was crucified for the redemption of humankind so that we might be reconciled to God, spend our lives in Him working out our salvation with gratitude and deeply appreciative for this gift bestowed upon humankind by God.
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I ***suffer not a woman to teach***, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to ***be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression"
1 Tim 2:11-14 (KJV)
That is God's declared Will on the subject, and so is irrevocable!
Only the "Devil and his angels" will contend differently, fooling and deceiving the weak and feeble-minded!
Ma'am u are right: this are men of God no doubt; but I think the devil is happy seeing them holding back the gospel with unnecessary debates. If they were Even talking about what women are doing wrong against God, that will be reasonable: but they are instead talking against the good work that women are trying to do in the kingdom. This is actually insane and out of the context of why Paul wrote what he wrote. If they were saying women are usurping authority over men as in the context of Paul, it'll be understood. Paul said they shouldn't teach because they'll try to be violent or aggressive in their art of teaching against not Everyman, but against their own men. If the women in that church could conduct themselves well, Paul won't have band them: so why don't we focus today on why Paul issued that statement and watch if women are doing Same rather than chasing the winds and creating division and confusion in times when much work needs to be done. Paul's bases was on the conduct of a woman, not on her gender. All of this anti women preachers will never be heard castigating a woman of God because of her going astray in doctrinal practices but on mere gender inequalities with make the topic none contextually fitting. Today there's a compiled document of the word that wasn't in those days which was the reason why women couldn't be effective. Today learning in silence of the woman had gain maturity; there's a manual for everyone to use for teaching as it wasn't in those days. This letters of paull and other apostles which made up scriptures today weren't there back then: they weren't compiled as a complete Bible.
@@earnestlycontendingforthef53328:21 Joel 2:28-29
[28]“And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
[29]Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
Pastor Dwight is way off. No matter what your opinion on this is, you can't use extra biblical sources for this debate.
The thing to realize is man only is to speak the truth so the woman can never be blamed for anything which to me is a blessing to the woman and he chose the woman to be the vessel in which people are to be brought into this world which I believe is also a blessing any true woman shall be thankful for these decisions made by the creator,God bless and keep the true woman amen 🙏!
We'll said.👌
Two men discussing the roles of women, no women’s voices allowed! How original!!!
Hallelujah!
Thank you GOD provide me with Your WORDS That Are Written in the Bible.
The Goals of the Bible is to let me understand GOD better.
By using GOD’s WORDS in the Bible, over Time I Myself will be able to Communicate to Holy Spirit.
Over time, I Myself will be able to communicate with Lord Jesus.
Over time, I Myself will be able to meet My GOD in Lord Jesus Name.
I Myself will not worship YOUR WORDS in the Bible Above The LORD, My GOD.
I Myself will not dare to “Put the Lord, My GOD to the Test”.
FOR YOU “The LORD, MY GOD not only The Lord of those Valleys and Hills, BUT ALL.”
FOR YOU “The LORD, My GOD. GOD ALMIGHTY.”
Hallelujah.
INIQUITY is the twisting or bending of the Word of God
Women are not to teach, preach, or usurp authority over a man period. It matters not what program or place they're in! Prophesying is totally different than teaching and preaching. So many claim that Jesus had women teachers, and all but they're taking the Word of God out of context and will have to pay for the misleading of people and perversion of His Word.
TRUTH! Proverbs 23:23. They can teach other women and of course children. The Bible is very plain. God is a God of order and His Word shows that. God has a place for everyone. We all have gifts. Praise the LORD!
LOL!
@@susannahwhite7561 the bible doesn't say...Women can teach other women...Where does it say that ...What scripture??....Paul say let the women keep silent and learn at home...He NEVER said as long as it's other women and children...So if your gonna use that scripture to say women can't preach and teach men...That same scripture said let them keep silent IN THE CHURCH...... periodt.... he basically told them to shut up...
this was great , do you guys have more debates like it on the channel ?
The question to be asked is, 'Did 1st-century church services even have sermons as we do now?'
Greg B exactly. Simple answer: NOPE!
I doubt it. They certainly didn't pray in front of people. Probably just read the scripture and confessed their sins.
@@StrangeDays25 Acts 13:3 Acts 22:17 Acts 12:12 Acts 14:23 Acts 20:36 Acts 4:31
I believe church probably looked different than it does now. However for preaching sermons maybe reference: Acts 8:12 Acts 9:27 Acts 6:2 Galatians 1:8
@@StrangeDays25 They key words in your post are troubling. Saying "Probably" and "I doubt it" means you have no idea what they were doing in their worship service. The Bible is not clear on exactly what they did and how they did it. And how do you know they didn't pray in front of people? Did they sing in their worship services? The Bible doesn't give us a clear explanation of exactly what they did in worship services in the first century. We don't have a clear answer on the question and to say you know what they were doing in the church two thousand years ago is disingenuous. You can't possibly know. Neither can I or anyone else in the 21st century.
The First Gentleman just stopped making sense about 3 minutes into his opening remarks. He lost me after the 20th “I think.” This topic is pretty clear in the Bible, which should exclude at least 95% of those “I thinks.”
1787 Black men where only 3/5 human what did the church say at that time. There could have so many different issues solved if the church would have stood up. 1787 would have been an awesome start.
They were deemed 3/5 human BECAUSE the BIBLE said ALL men were created equal and men had to rationalise their treatment of them. Let's not judge the WORD of God by man's manipulation of it for their own reasons....much like their abdication of their leadership roles in the home AND the church.
God will judge all of them that is a fact.
Why did Pastor Dwight have to bring race into this arguement? He also wasn't quoting the bible. He was just bringing up non-biblical teachings and stories. I would've taken him more seriously and cheered for him if he left race out and pointed to biblical verses that affirmed his position. Good for Pastor Tom for following the bible and not current culture. We don't need political correctness. We need the biblical truth. ✝️
In reference to 1 Timothy look at the whole context. Paul was addressing an issue Timothy was having with an all-female cult who were spreading false teachings. You have to look at the entire setting and understand why that verse was placed there to understand what was going on. If you look at Romans 16 Paul commends plenty of women who were leaders in the church.
1 Timothy epistle = The Whole Context is a Pastoral Letter
Paul wrote this epistle with the pastoral ministry in view. The entire letter makes that clear.
Roman 16 says nothing about leadership, nothing concerning teaching the Local New Testament and certainly not preaching to assembly. That is being imposed upon 1 Timothy and Romans. You have failed to provide one verse, only opinions.
THANK YOU!!! A woman us NOT to have authority over a man AT ALL!! POINT BLANK! All that means is she is not to have power over him as in question his teachings in church but to wait until they are HOME! That means so that the congregation will NOT think more of her than what she really intents and make assumptions. A woman not teaching on the pulpet just means pretty much the same thing, she is not to correct his teaching, change his teaching or over through. That would be being ignorant! That scripture also means that the woman Paul was writing to where FALSE PROPHETS! They did NOT know what they were talking about so they should keep quite
@@alyssabeale1095 .......Bravo!!!
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."
1 Timothy 2:11-14 (KJV)
The fact is Paul was addressing a problem the church,about silent ( making noise) and teaching men ( their husbands) in the sense of disrespecting men ,who are supposed to be head of the house ,it wasn't about teaching .if the church is the bride ( female) of Jesus and he gave the gospel, gifts to his bride for the edification of the his body ,how can one say , women can't , shouldn't teach ,then the church the bride (woman in a marriage) can't or shouldn't teach the gospel ?
Women please bear in mind, on your coming Judgment Day you will be
judged on your willingness and obedience to the Divinely endorsed
Scripture teachings and instructions that follow.
Now, regarding the false teaching for the emancipation of women in the Christian fraternity.
Such 21st-century contrived beliefs are in contravention and
defiance of the Lord's command for women to remain silent in the church
assemblies.
"As [is the practice] in all the churches of the saints (God's people),
34 The women should keep quiet in the churches, for they are not
authorized to speak, but should take a secondary and subordinate place,
just as the Law also says.
35 But if there is anything they want to learn, they should ask
their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to talk in
church [ for her to usurp and exercise authority over men in the
church].
36 What! Did the word of the Lord originate with you [Corinthians], or has it reached only you?
37 If anyone thinks and claims that he is a prophet [filled with and
governed by the Holy Spirit of God and inspired to interpret the divine
will and purpose in preaching or teaching] or has any other spiritual
endowment, let him understand (recognize and acknowledge)
***What what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord***.
38 But if anyone disregards or does not recognize [ that it is a
command of the Lord], he is disregarded and not recognized [he is one
whom God knows not].
1 Corinthians 14:33-38 (AMPLIFIED ,BIBLE)
Thus if any insist on disregarding the Lord's command for a woman's silence they have become "One whom God knows not"
Which is a most undignified and ungodly position any man or woman could possibly find themselves.
For even St. Paul's instruction makes it quite plain that women
are forbidden to teach men and must not usurp their God given authority.
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression"
1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV)
We have a speaking serpent in the Bible, a talking donkey in the Holy Scriptures, a virgin that conceived in the Word of God, and two men ( Enoch and Elijah) who did not see physical death in the "canon". All of these events happen only once!
Hermeneutically, these are all "Exceptions" in the Holy Scriptures, not the "rule". Now suggesting such when approaching the remainder of the Holy Scriptures corrupts the revelation of God.
Deborah who was a prophetess and judge cannot be used as precedent for future ministry in the Old Testament temple service or synagogue gatherings and certainly not the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Exceptions" in the Holy Scriptures, not the "rule" ... and today, HELPERS/Women needed where there are "NO MEN"/ Heads! lol
Controversy??God is not the author of confusion you can’t change what is already written Lord help him😇
Thank you, Mr. McKissick, for finding the one verse in Scripture that is not inspired, inerrant and infallible. I'm going to cut it out of my Bible right now. I hope Timothy isn't turning in his grave that his book loses a verse. That would be remarkably chauvinistic of him.
--
"But did God really say...?"
The serpent strikes again.
:D funny. cracked me up!
Paul wrote Timothy my brother
Got to keep his job instead of the soul Matthew 7:21-24
STOP LOOKING AT THE GUYS, just listen and come with your view, lets see how you much up!
This was great.
YES!
McKissec is wrong, I'm a woman, I don't need an apology and don't feel oppressed for the something that happened to ears ago. I follow God's word. Not mans. He is trying to teach and preach his feelings.
Thought that was td jakes at first
darrenjohnson 519 me too
@@Patriarchyforever Me three😂
Me too lol that's why I even tuned in to this one :)
A year later... I thought so too
Me too 🤫
What does God say in the beginning? The man rules over the woman or household. That is one criteria of being a bishop or pastor in 1 Timothy 3:2-4.
(Genesis 3:16) "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and HE shall rule over thee (i.e. the woman Eve).
(1 Timothy 3:2-4) "A bishop then must be blameless... {4} one that ruleth HIS own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;"