I'm pretty sure that if this was the first red dead game... then in the original red dead (which would make it the second) that he probably would've sided with Arthur and John IMO idk
@tylerjamar8443 don't worry about getting attacked for having a different opinion... It's either bullying or a big misunderstanding on their part either way- now you know you are one like me bro a pariah 💞
just like dictator cult of personality. Nobody doubt the leader. Only difference is that Dutch is not forcing anybody to stay. Most of them are just manipulated.
Dutch only survived that long with his “leadership” because Arthur made him strong and kept being loyal to Dutch. If Arthur and HOSEA had just left, everyone would’ve realised Dutch is a fool much sooner. Micah was a rat but Dutch is something much worse
True, Arthur was the muscle when a job needed to be done, Hosea was the brain who worked his best so everyone would survive. Dutch's best and only weapon is his charisma, that's all. While Arthur remains loyal no one would see them as weak and Hosea would make sure everyone is safe and the morale would be high.
This dialogue made me sad when I first heard it. Dutch is a master manipulator. Except from Javier's perspective, Dutch saved him in Guarma. It would be hard to turn against someone who just saved your life, even if you did have doubts.
It’s another great example of how Dutch didn’t just magically “go crazy” with a head injury, he was always a manipulator with his own best interests in mind. Maybe the head injury made him more irritable but it didn’t start his downfall, Blackwater was the beginning of the end when he killed a girl in cold blood
@@mithvibes4727 true, and there's many people thinking that way Just to say, even in chap1 and 2 dutch tries to make arthur feels bad for doubting him when arthur takes hosea's side, and in a camp event dutch just straight up tell arthur "i'm sure in the end you will betray me. "... I had this line in my playthrough, i was a bit shocked and angry against dutch lol
The head injury affecting him at all is such nonsense, he just got injured because of a heist that bronte set up, it gives dutch more reasons to hate bronte, its not supposed to connect to his insanity. He was able to function normally when he hit his head, he just got really hurt but didnt go insane.
Dutch’s methods of manipulation are actually crazy. The way he’s able to guilt the gang after they question his methods and turn the table’s around on them is truly insane but I can’t help but also admire this detail about Dutch, it’s subtle but also obvious.
Makes me understand exactly how Micah managed to manipulate him so quickly. He told Dutch exactly what he wanted to hear all the time, enforcing what he already thought, that everyone else, including 2 men hes known since they were children and has basically raised, were against him. Dutch might have been the one of the best fighters in the group, but mentally, I think weakest .
Javier was so awesome in rdr2, in another world wish he helped John and Arthur. And that rdr1 was different. Arthur, John, and Javier could handle anything
Agreed, Javier seemed like one of the "good guys" in the gang, good in quotes because they're obviously still outlaws and killers. So It felt a bit weird and out of character for him to side with Dutch in the end, cause his overall attitude before Chapter 6 was more in line with Arthur and John. In the sense that he was using his brain and had some kind of moral code instead of blindly following Dutch. Then he very quickly pivoted towards blind loyalty to Dutch in Ch.6. But I guess it all had to lead up to the events of RDR1, so that part makes sense at least.
@@BL00DYME55 U pretty much said it, Javier lived by that code (loyalty)-It was everything to him. No surprise he sided w/Dutch. As much as it stung, they did it right. I would have been shocked had he sided w/Arthur & John.
@@Alienoiable Charles helped John, Javier could have been helping build the house with them all. And then go to Blackwater for the roast prarie chicken, with green peas and mashed potatoes and gravy.
I think people are mad that the development is hidden behind blink once and you'll miss it hidden interactions at specific points in the storyline. A few more missions fleshing out Bill and Jav would have been awesome but it feels like the women get more character than 2 of the 3 main antagonists of the first game
Damn Javier was so close to being an awesome comrade...that sucks 😢 its like seeing a friend with so much potential go down a bad road you cant save them. That's real
Not acknowledging anything of what Javier said, not addressing the running and killing, but instead choosing absolutes, you're either with me and strong or you're against me and weak. Nobody wants to be weak of course. Huge red flag even before shit really went down. A true leader would take criticism and would work out a proper solution, a dictator would silence and force his will on everybody. It is only mentioned very few times, but if you would leave the gang or choose another path than Dutch, you'd be treated like a traitor and the rules say that traitors have to die, see what they did to Molly. That's why at the beginning of the game Arthur has a hard time dealing with John, not because he left his son behind, but because he disappeared for a whole year without any notice and suddenly chose to return, which was clearly against the rules, yet Dutch made an exception for him. I believe it was not because he saw John as a son, but because he needed every gun to reach his own goals.
I don't think it was about every gun needed. I've looked at it more like morale thing. Punishing John would really stir the pot in the camp after recently losing some men. It would certainly antagonize a lot of members (especially Abigail, and the only child in the camp, Jack) which would make the atmosphere really dense and paired with hard times ahead people would start questioning & fracturing from under his command.
Untrue. Charles also left and returned to help the gang with the blakcwater robbery. Arthur is upset that his lifelong brother just ran away without a goodbye for so long and then has the guts to come back like nothing happened. Charles probably left with a goodbye leaving arthur with the knowledge he's coming back at some point. Molly was shot because she confessed to being the spy, not leaving the gang. A reason for which even today people are being executed for by the state.
@@nightmarepegasus4141its done to generate tention between arthur abd john, and give young john more characterization regarding how he felt about his family, which he left the gang because of, to avoid raising jack.
@@thephoenix4093 he also left because he wanted to leave this outlaw life, overall there's different reasons From rdr1, john just was meant to actually be loyal to the gang, then doubts and left for dead for it. He wasn't meant to be a deloyal type of character nor a bad/none existent father to jack. It's just that it's out of character and it's there mostly to make john seem to be an ass About him leaving, i'm pretty sure we know it was with dutch's accordance that he left. Both hosea and javier also say to arthur that john would not leave just like that, with no talk and all Sure it brings tension, but it seems mid, and mostly makes john less likable. It feels less tragic that john was left for dead after him leaving the gang that way, compared to a rdr1 john who took hard to be left for dead because he passed most of his life in the gang being loyal, even was less present for jack during the past for the gang( of course it permits character development though)
Watch dutch said after prpgressvely wenting insane dosent actualy reflect what the character is meant to have fully been to its whole life, its his worst traits enhanced by strong mental desease but not who he actualy is
Javier is the most tragic character of the group. He could turn out like John having a life, but he took the wrong road and ended up broken and miserable in the end.
Its crazy because Rockstar already made a game with someone like Dutch in it, except he is more chaotic. His name is Billy, and he is the leader of The Lost MC.
As far back as Colter I recognized Dutch's gaslighting and manipulation, even with no prior experience in rdr1. The main givaway was the line "stay with me" in the opening cutscene followed by his refusal to answer about Heidi McCourt. I was still aboard the Dutch train, though. Any cult leader who's already starving and exhausted who's willing to brave a storm to look for a missing man has at least Some redeeming qualities
You can also say that since Dutch is a cult leader he’s not worried about John he’s worried about losing another member of his cult which has already lost 3 members in Blackwater.
@@Louis13XIII Dutch didn’t send Javier and Arthur to go search for John. It was Hosea who asked them to go look for John. Obviously Dutch was happy at that time that Arthur and Javier found John but he wasn’t the one who sent them.
This dosent come from simple weak mind, dutch gave an oportunity to those people that made them overly loyal to him it wasnt just talk and manipulation that gave dutch his power
Micah doesn't get off that easy... He still murdered half a town for a pair of guns, betrayed his only allies, killed a dog that belonged to his ally's son, harrased the women in the gang, and tried to endorse dutch's behavior to help his goal of destroying the gang from inside.
Nah, Micah's a sadist and (heavily) implied to be a Pedo. For all of Dutch's faults, I only recall him enjoying killing Heidi McCourt and taunting John in RDR.
@@Uteria_888 Like I said, Is different context. What Dutch says here is not wrong per se. In father-child relation it will be a good advice. But is because Dutch says it that this turns into a different meaning
@@ridler_ns6558 sorry for your kids present or future with this type of mentality then. I swear so many people can't be parrents and they don't even try to improve.
I wish they developed Javier’s brainwashing more. They did a pretty good job with Bill and Micah but Javier always felt like they forgot to make him evil enough to follow Dutch blindly.
it's not brainwashing, its manipulation. That's the goddamn difference, and when you figure that out, you'll know how to properly title this video lol ;)
To be fair, what he did to arthur and john was closer to brainwashing than simply manupulation. Raising them to kill and rob based on his twisted morals...
From the strt of chapter 3 dutch started planning by him self and not telling anyone one and wanted his group to not questioning him eveen arthur and hosea
It's sad because Javier really looked up to Dutch like a father. Even if he was smart enough to know Dutch was wrong, he would still follow his manipulations
Outlaw - wants to be left alone and not be beholden to the law, will kill in defense of that right Criminal - actively seeks to harm people for his own benefit and break laws
Realistically what was durch supposed to to do beside keep running and thinking of a way out.. there’s was no way out for him beside death so idk what they wanted him to do his “plans” kept them all alive
I don't know, gather all that money and try to finally disappear somewhere? And even if they did that, what was the guarantee they wouldn't start trouble where they would go again
I think dutch could just have sent trelawny to get the money from blackwater, then leave to a nice place and enjoy their lives. Even without this money it was possible. But dutch can't stand how works the politics, authorities... and wants to have control on people and on things. He just can't fight his own nature, wo it would end this way anyways, even if there was more solutions than problems tbh
In all my Javier interactions, I really thought he would side with Arthur in the end. And then later I got the chance to see RDR1 and then it all made sense. 😂
Dutch was such a good manipulator that I had forgotten what he was like in RDR1 He gaslight me into thinking he was fighting for freedom. But by chapter 3 I began to remember the Dutch for RDR1 and started watching him real close. Only people who calls him out openly is John and Hosea, both from the start knew Dutch was only gonna cause trouble
It's crazy to play a high honour run, and see Arthur going in one direction, while simultaneously watching Javier go in the other direction. I don't think any other character changes as radically as Javier does over the course of the game. To the point that seeing him in the other game feels like he's a completely different person.
I wish we will see the golden age of the gang at some point. I don't remember since when javier was in the gang in rdr2 though. But it would be great to see a more respectable dutch, to see john more active and badass....
0:20 This scene pulls at my heartstrings for some reason. They all trusted Dutch so much to lead them, keep them same, and all they got in return was suffering and their mindless accusations.
That guy can run and escape without beeing shot, but that poor black lady in her kitchen just had hot pot and said "jesus" in a weird context had no chance .... what a funny world.
Yes this is true. However there really is a difference between being an outlaw and being a criminal. An outlaw is someone who ignites rebelion against a set of laws because one thinks these set of legal rules are not justifiable. While a criminal is someone who does immoral acts that direct or indirectly hurt and affect other people’s lives negatively. Edit: But even so, just like a venn diagram, an outlaw and a criminal do have a lot of similarities more, than their differences.
Outlaw - will do mostly moral or questionable things at worst, that are mostly illegal or gray in legal nature. Criminal - definitely breaks the law, doesn't care about morality. In other words, morality does not come from legality, in a perfect world legality 100% comes from morality, and all laws are morally sound. In that perfect world, all outlaws are criminals. But in our world, many laws are immoral, and thus we have morally sound outlaws. So yeah, in that regard Dutch is 100% right.
@@is9875 yes, I really do agree. this one was nice of you to put "In that perfect world, all outlaws are criminals. But in our world, many laws are immoral, and thus we have morally sound outlaws." Thank you.
A... *LOT* of people believe that Dutch was a manipulator ever since beginning. But i think that it's more like they want to believe that, rather than actually thinking about it.
I just recently played rdr2 for the first time and tbh I found Dutch to be pretty suspect from the jump. Especially when you're walking around camp and he'll sometimes be making preacher esque speeches that just came off as cult leader vibes.
@@TheMastermind7259 yeah just the way he spoke, and honestly the revelation that half of all the money made on scores was going to him for safe keeping just made me suspicious. I liked his character at the beginning and all but about midway through the game I was like "Alright yeah, dude's definitely up to something".
@@PlaceHolderHandleOrWhaver man, you need a *LOOOOT* more proof than just that. Whatever you ever mentioned for now was just "Uhm I think that this is suspicious." while it actually does make a lot of sense, and there's other explanations than just "Oh this guy is evil.", like "This man is responsible leader, a great one." or "Well, the money is needed for food and ammo and health care plus other bonuses, because that's literally what we spend it on.". Like really. If we were an empire, and I didn't want to make taxes, but we need to have a share of our money to afford stuff like public transportation, army, etcetera, i would make every other dollar made go to the empire to afford this all. It's similar to taxes, and it goes to good use. Just maybe a bit too much of a big share... However, I guess it's important. This empire is an enemy if a lot of people. Find something more! The time I find Dutch evil is after Hosea died and Micah, that rat, got close enough to his ear, enough to speak and turn him into this.
ill brainwash you little more, outlaw means actually OUT-LOVE meaning that these people wasn't tamed by love and people who is obedient and follows laws are tamed by love.
That ain't helping it. Everyone wants to feel love or be loved. Hell, their loyalty isn't out of spite or money. Root of it is in love towards their group, they value it above all else. Love isn't some "feeling" that you get in the guts, that's affection, infatuation. Love is more than that.
@@kresovk5 No, wrong! You've been programmed to be desperate for love... If you learn some quantum physics you will realise that all u need is self love. Love can make u weak if u are addicted to it externaly.
Javier was SO DAMN CLOSE.
I'm pretty sure that if this was the first red dead game... then in the original red dead (which would make it the second) that he probably would've sided with Arthur and John IMO idk
@@Uteria_888 But they made it in retrospect so maybe not
@tylerjamar8443Rockstar: my bad for making the first game before the second game
Kinda ironic that he's the one who gives robberies side quests
@tylerjamar8443 don't worry about getting attacked for having a different opinion... It's either bullying or a big misunderstanding on their part either way- now you know you are one like me bro a pariah 💞
Damn, this is a really important scene I haven't seen before. By "strong" Dutch clearly means "unquestioning"
Exactly
@@amirhomayoonfarmusic lumbago
just like dictator cult of personality. Nobody doubt the leader. Only difference is that Dutch is not forcing anybody to stay. Most of them are just manipulated.
More like obedient
I think Dutch is just trying to keep them all together. When they weren’t like in the cave, everything fell apart
>complains about others doubting him and not having unwavering faith
>immediately doubts everyone else for remotely questioning him
But he doesn’t he just says u doubting me
@@DeadX2 watch at 1:30
@@plaguepandemic5651 he still doesn’t say r u doubting me
@@DeadX2 there's a thing called subtext
@@plaguepandemic5651 yeah Ik but he wasn’t doubting anyone lol he was still good here it’s just random dialogue
*ORTHUR*
Oh Orthur
R TUR
VAMOS, vamos
Ar turd
@@curiousmind_ How does someone even come up wit dem words
Dutch only survived that long with his “leadership” because Arthur made him strong and kept being loyal to Dutch. If Arthur and HOSEA had just left, everyone would’ve realised Dutch is a fool much sooner. Micah was a rat but Dutch is something much worse
True, Arthur was the muscle when a job needed to be done, Hosea was the brain who worked his best so everyone would survive. Dutch's best and only weapon is his charisma, that's all.
While Arthur remains loyal no one would see them as weak and Hosea would make sure everyone is safe and the morale would be high.
Dutch was the crow pretending to be the dove.
@@plasmafonkthat some gay ass comment
@@siraustinimo Damn bro what did Dutch tell you to believe that
And John saw right through Dutch. That's why Dutch hated him.
This dialogue made me sad when I first heard it. Dutch is a master manipulator. Except from Javier's perspective, Dutch saved him in Guarma. It would be hard to turn against someone who just saved your life, even if you did have doubts.
Saved him and left both arthur and john to die. I wonder if he cared more for them if they would never doubt him
Isn't this in the Act 2 camp? Guarma happens later.
@@kacperperzynski7488he didnt know dutch will do that
@@kacperperzynski7488he cared for everyone even though he was manipulating them he still cares for them inside
@@DeadX2 Yep, it's just that he was incapable of loving someone else as much as he loved himself
It’s another great example of how Dutch didn’t just magically “go crazy” with a head injury, he was always a manipulator with his own best interests in mind. Maybe the head injury made him more irritable but it didn’t start his downfall, Blackwater was the beginning of the end when he killed a girl in cold blood
Yes it’s just when things starting closing in his hidden true self started to show
anyone who thinks the head injury "made" dutch bad did not understand the story at all
@@mithvibes4727 true, and there's many people thinking that way
Just to say, even in chap1 and 2 dutch tries to make arthur feels bad for doubting him when arthur takes hosea's side, and in a camp event dutch just straight up tell arthur "i'm sure in the end you will betray me. "... I had this line in my playthrough, i was a bit shocked and angry against dutch lol
@@nightmarepegasus4141 I was angry as well. I wanted to antagonize him but the option wasn't there
The head injury affecting him at all is such nonsense, he just got injured because of a heist that bronte set up, it gives dutch more reasons to hate bronte, its not supposed to connect to his insanity. He was able to function normally when he hit his head, he just got really hurt but didnt go insane.
why is this game so smoooth... dutch just turning towards arthur and greeting him, javier checks him out and they keep talking
I know man
Exactly, that was absolutely incredible, I can't even imagine how GTA 6 is going to be.
The animations and voice acting are impeccable. It blows me away every time.
Dutch’s methods of manipulation are actually crazy. The way he’s able to guilt the gang after they question his methods and turn the table’s around on them is truly insane but I can’t help but also admire this detail about Dutch, it’s subtle but also obvious.
Makes me understand exactly how Micah managed to manipulate him so quickly. He told Dutch exactly what he wanted to hear all the time, enforcing what he already thought, that everyone else, including 2 men hes known since they were children and has basically raised, were against him.
Dutch might have been the one of the best fighters in the group, but mentally, I think weakest .
Javier was so awesome in rdr2, in another world wish he helped John and Arthur. And that rdr1 was different. Arthur, John, and Javier could handle anything
Agreed, Javier seemed like one of the "good guys" in the gang, good in quotes because they're obviously still outlaws and killers. So It felt a bit weird and out of character for him to side with Dutch in the end, cause his overall attitude before Chapter 6 was more in line with Arthur and John. In the sense that he was using his brain and had some kind of moral code instead of blindly following Dutch. Then he very quickly pivoted towards blind loyalty to Dutch in Ch.6.
But I guess it all had to lead up to the events of RDR1, so that part makes sense at least.
@@BL00DYME55 U pretty much said it, Javier lived by that code (loyalty)-It was everything to him. No surprise he sided w/Dutch. As much as it stung, they did it right. I would have been shocked had he sided w/Arthur & John.
And Charles. Charles was the best out of the whole gang.
@@Alienoiable Charles helped John, Javier could have been helping build the house with them all. And then go to Blackwater for the roast prarie chicken, with green peas and mashed potatoes and gravy.
He was retconned
Dutch has been so well written in every way
No
@@lionsnakehunteryou may not like the character but the way he was written was done in a believable consistent manner, Therefore well written.
and well acted, his voice actor is amazing
And people say characters get no development besides arthur. There are Interactions to see, you just have to seek them out.
I think people are mad that the development is hidden behind blink once and you'll miss it hidden interactions at specific points in the storyline. A few more missions fleshing out Bill and Jav would have been awesome but it feels like the women get more character than 2 of the 3 main antagonists of the first game
Damn Javier was so close to being an awesome comrade...that sucks 😢 its like seeing a friend with so much potential go down a bad road you cant save them. That's real
This sounds like my boss is dutch
Well your boss ain't the leader of an outlaw gang ok the run from the government. Now get to work
@@NateS917wtf u gay?
@@Kkkaa.111yes I think he’s gay
@@Kkkaa.111 so you saying he likes to fuck other mens just because he said to the commenter his boss isnt the leader of an outlaw gang??????
@@NateS917his boss still might be a manipulative POS
1:33 imagine if Arthur responded with the "Have some goddamn faith" card
"YOU USE MY OWN SPELLS AGAINST ME ORTHUR??"
The "We are not criminals. We are outlaws" quote from Dutch is so iconic that low honor Arthur remembers it at the end during his last ride
Not acknowledging anything of what Javier said, not addressing the running and killing, but instead choosing absolutes, you're either with me and strong or you're against me and weak. Nobody wants to be weak of course.
Huge red flag even before shit really went down. A true leader would take criticism and would work out a proper solution, a dictator would silence and force his will on everybody.
It is only mentioned very few times, but if you would leave the gang or choose another path than Dutch, you'd be treated like a traitor and the rules say that traitors have to die, see what they did to Molly. That's why at the beginning of the game Arthur has a hard time dealing with John, not because he left his son behind, but because he disappeared for a whole year without any notice and suddenly chose to return, which was clearly against the rules, yet Dutch made an exception for him. I believe it was not because he saw John as a son, but because he needed every gun to reach his own goals.
I don't think it was about every gun needed. I've looked at it more like morale thing. Punishing John would really stir the pot in the camp after recently losing some men. It would certainly antagonize a lot of members (especially Abigail, and the only child in the camp, Jack) which would make the atmosphere really dense and paired with hard times ahead people would start questioning & fracturing from under his command.
A bit out of subject from me, but it still seems weird from rockstar to have made john leave the gang one year imo
Untrue. Charles also left and returned to help the gang with the blakcwater robbery. Arthur is upset that his lifelong brother just ran away without a goodbye for so long and then has the guts to come back like nothing happened. Charles probably left with a goodbye leaving arthur with the knowledge he's coming back at some point.
Molly was shot because she confessed to being the spy, not leaving the gang. A reason for which even today people are being executed for by the state.
@@nightmarepegasus4141its done to generate tention between arthur abd john, and give young john more characterization regarding how he felt about his family, which he left the gang because of, to avoid raising jack.
@@thephoenix4093 he also left because he wanted to leave this outlaw life, overall there's different reasons
From rdr1, john just was meant to actually be loyal to the gang, then doubts and left for dead for it. He wasn't meant to be a deloyal type of character nor a bad/none existent father to jack. It's just that it's out of character and it's there mostly to make john seem to be an ass
About him leaving, i'm pretty sure we know it was with dutch's accordance that he left. Both hosea and javier also say to arthur that john would not leave just like that, with no talk and all
Sure it brings tension, but it seems mid, and mostly makes john less likable. It feels less tragic that john was left for dead after him leaving the gang that way, compared to a rdr1 john who took hard to be left for dead because he passed most of his life in the gang being loyal, even was less present for jack during the past for the gang( of course it permits character development though)
that last dialogue with arthur. proves dutch never cared for any of them. as long as they were with him.
I wouldn't say he never cared about Arthur. He did, but always chose his own hide first.
Watch dutch said after prpgressvely wenting insane dosent actualy reflect what the character is meant to have fully been to its whole life, its his worst traits enhanced by strong mental desease but not who he actualy is
Dutch has level 100 Gaslighting skill
Before gaslighting is a thing.
Dutch in 1899:
Dutch the father of gaslighting
lol
Javier is the most tragic character of the group. He could turn out like John having a life, but he took the wrong road and ended up broken and miserable in the end.
Javier really wanted to be by Arthur’s side when the whole conflict went down. He really had doubts but couldn’t over come them by the end of the
Its crazy because Rockstar already made a game with someone like Dutch in it, except he is more chaotic. His name is Billy, and he is the leader of The Lost MC.
I thought the same thing while Billy was basically Micah but more annoying
Also Gary from Bully, the perfect manipulative sociopath. The way he talks to and manipulates Jimmy before his betrayal is very Dutch-like.
And Ron Jakowski who is literally Brian.
A bootliker.
@@SeriousDragonify WAIT YOURE RIGHT
Dutch is more intelligent and charismatic but Dutch is by far worse than Billy Grey ever was
As far back as Colter I recognized Dutch's gaslighting and manipulation, even with no prior experience in rdr1.
The main givaway was the line "stay with me" in the opening cutscene followed by his refusal to answer about Heidi McCourt.
I was still aboard the Dutch train, though. Any cult leader who's already starving and exhausted who's willing to brave a storm to look for a missing man has at least Some redeeming qualities
You can also say that since Dutch is a cult leader he’s not worried about John he’s worried about losing another member of his cult which has already lost 3 members in Blackwater.
"Trust me"
@@Garuda_31 if that was the logic, why risk the life of 2 more people to save 1?
@@Louis13XIII Dutch didn’t send Javier and Arthur to go search for John. It was Hosea who asked them to go look for John. Obviously Dutch was happy at that time that Arthur and Javier found John but he wasn’t the one who sent them.
@@Garuda_31 yeah that's why I wasn't sure what you meant by saying Dutch was worried about losing a member of the cult
This is Dutch's version of "Skylar, I’m not a drug dealer, I’m a drug manufacturer"
Dutch was just an O'Driscoll at the end
STRONG...
Hated how weak minded half of the gang were
This dosent come from simple weak mind, dutch gave an oportunity to those people that made them overly loyal to him it wasnt just talk and manipulation that gave dutch his power
Finally people get it..
Dutch was the villain and Micah was just a yes man
I'm right there with you, frfr
I've said for a while that Dutch was nothing more than a criminal cult leader
Micah doesn't get off that easy...
He still murdered half a town for a pair of guns, betrayed his only allies, killed a dog that belonged to his ally's son, harrased the women in the gang, and tried to endorse dutch's behavior to help his goal of destroying the gang from inside.
Micah is cleary show as manipulative to ducth aft3r his head injury, his a "yes man" that actualy betrays and tries to get people killed
Nah, Micah's a sadist and (heavily) implied to be a Pedo. For all of Dutch's faults, I only recall him enjoying killing Heidi McCourt and taunting John in RDR.
Everyone in the camp is a villain in someone's life story. They are all murdering criminals after all.
Miss O’Shea at the beginning sounds like an adolescent boy using a mic while playing online and I can’t stop giggling about that.
Dutch is like my dad IRL and Javier is me not knowing WTF is life and not really caring
Your dad isnt a gang leader, right? Context is different
@@ridler_ns6558 no my dad isn't a gang leader 💀 just in a sense of this here video, like the conversation here... not like Dutch overall lol
@@Uteria_888 Like I said, Is different context. What Dutch says here is not wrong per se. In father-child relation it will be a good advice. But is because Dutch says it that this turns into a different meaning
@@ridler_ns6558 riiight... I am kind of dumb in trying to understand what you just told me, but hey- at least I saw your text and read it :)
@@ridler_ns6558 sorry for your kids present or future with this type of mentality then. I swear so many people can't be parrents and they don't even try to improve.
"You better not be doubting me as well, Arthur!"
Arthur: * BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG!!! *
I wish they developed Javier’s brainwashing more. They did a pretty good job with Bill and Micah but Javier always felt like they forgot to make him evil enough to follow Dutch blindly.
it's not brainwashing, its manipulation. That's the goddamn difference, and when you figure that out, you'll know how to properly title this video lol ;)
😂😂😂😂 ...
Er, without manipulation brainwashing can't be accomplished. Is that funny? 😶🌫️
U is dumm
The plan
To be fair, what he did to arthur and john was closer to brainwashing than simply manupulation. Raising them to kill and rob based on his twisted morals...
This manipulation worked like a charm later on
One of these days I'm going to write an essay on all the ways in which Dutch is a cult leader.
From the strt of chapter 3 dutch started planning by him self and not telling anyone one and wanted his group to not questioning him eveen arthur and hosea
Javiers situation reminds me of a kid sticking with their narcissistic parent for the sole purpose of not feeling alone.
Amazing how a game from more than a century ago is popular till this day.
Dutch has so much carisma and so good in manipulating that he can manipulate me to like him, even knowing everything
It's sad because Javier really looked up to Dutch like a father. Even if he was smart enough to know Dutch was wrong, he would still follow his manipulations
Javier, my man, run before it's too late! 😭
Oh it's too late.
Ah come on Dutch!
Sounds like Rick in walking dead
Not at all
Outlaw - wants to be left alone and not be beholden to the law, will kill in defense of that right
Criminal - actively seeks to harm people for his own benefit and break laws
Wants to be left alone, to do non criminal things like rob trains and banks and trolleys
The only game with realistic npcs
He did NOT answer the question 😂 evasion at its finest and poor Javier is so confused! Talking in circles!
POV: Hunt Showdown with friends
If Dutch didn’t save Javier in Guarma…. Man 😭
Javier needs some GOD DAMN FAITH
Escuella was always a torn man. A cynic who desperately wanted to be a romantic.-John Martson
Realistically what was durch supposed to to do beside keep running and thinking of a way out.. there’s was no way out for him beside death so idk what they wanted him to do his “plans” kept them all alive
His plans ended up killing most of them lol
I don't know, gather all that money and try to finally disappear somewhere? And even if they did that, what was the guarantee they wouldn't start trouble where they would go again
I think dutch could just have sent trelawny to get the money from blackwater, then leave to a nice place and enjoy their lives. Even without this money it was possible. But dutch can't stand how works the politics, authorities... and wants to have control on people and on things. He just can't fight his own nature, wo it would end this way anyways, even if there was more solutions than problems tbh
In all my Javier interactions, I really thought he would side with Arthur in the end. And then later I got the chance to see RDR1 and then it all made sense. 😂
Dutch was such a good manipulator that I had forgotten what he was like in RDR1
He gaslight me into thinking he was fighting for freedom. But by chapter 3 I began to remember the Dutch for RDR1 and started watching him real close.
Only people who calls him out openly is John and Hosea, both from the start knew Dutch was only gonna cause trouble
It's crazy to play a high honour run, and see Arthur going in one direction, while simultaneously watching Javier go in the other direction. I don't think any other character changes as radically as Javier does over the course of the game. To the point that seeing him in the other game feels like he's a completely different person.
And here we see javier turning into the mf he was in rdr1, the biggest glowdown in the history of mankind
Javier needs to have a little goddamn faith
yk youre fucked when your most loyal soldier (Javier) starts doubting you
A magnificent scene and scenery
Ocaurs
That's how the people's temple started lol
Gaslighter extraordinaire Dutch lol 😂
Great example. Thank you so much.
the true antagonist
"Ms O'Shea."
Little has changed.
The thing is, we only see when things are going south in the gang. I think we would see another side of Dutch when they were not on the run like that.
I wish we will see the golden age of the gang at some point. I don't remember since when javier was in the gang in rdr2 though. But it would be great to see a more respectable dutch, to see john more active and badass....
@@nightmarepegasus4141dutch was never respectable, he was just better at appearing that way before blackwater.
@@thephoenix4093 yes that's true, but you get what i mean. Less obvious that he manipulates...
@@nightmarepegasus4141 in one dialogue between Javier and Arthur (when Arthur is drunk) it's said that Javier is there for about 4-5 years i think
@@septarria thanks 👍
I like your pfp by the way, really cute
have some goddamn faith
Dutch just infuriates me. I think if one or two things had been different Javier would have been standing with John and Arthur in the end
Not really would of been the exact same except Javier is there
Those two things are if Javier were smarter and had more courage.
Am I the only one that actually liked Javier
Nah, most people i've seen like javier, and i like him particularly
I’m glad to see there are less Dutch apologizers these days lol
0:20
This scene pulls at my heartstrings for some reason.
They all trusted Dutch so much to lead them, keep them same, and all they got in return was suffering and their mindless accusations.
Do or do not. There is no try.
we're not criminals, we're outlaws
there's a difference?
it's like criminals, but with style
That guy can run and escape without beeing shot, but that poor black lady in her kitchen just had hot pot and said "jesus" in a weird context had no chance .... what a funny world.
A bit like Anonimous Alcoholics
It would’ve been so cool if Javier helped John and Arthur and in RDR1 John had to help capture or kill someone who saved his life
im watchong in vr
My father and me.
2024.
Charles Manson ancestor
if you really think about it, dutch mightve been worse than micah lol. he basically betrayed Hosea, arthur, Javier, John, etc. first
Dutch is a master manipulator
i will always defend javier though. he really had nothing and no one else.
Yes this is true. However there really is a difference between being an outlaw and being a criminal.
An outlaw is someone who ignites rebelion against a set of laws because one thinks these set of legal rules are not justifiable.
While a criminal is someone who does immoral acts that direct or indirectly hurt and affect other people’s lives negatively.
Edit:
But even so, just like a venn diagram, an outlaw and a criminal do have a lot of similarities more, than their differences.
Outlaw - will do mostly moral or questionable things at worst, that are mostly illegal or gray in legal nature.
Criminal - definitely breaks the law, doesn't care about morality.
In other words, morality does not come from legality, in a perfect world legality 100% comes from morality, and all laws are morally sound. In that perfect world, all outlaws are criminals. But in our world, many laws are immoral, and thus we have morally sound outlaws. So yeah, in that regard Dutch is 100% right.
@@is9875 yes, I really do agree. this one was nice of you to put "In that perfect world, all outlaws are criminals. But in our world, many laws are immoral, and thus we have morally sound outlaws." Thank you.
Of course there is a difference
Dutch was Grifith
A... *LOT* of people believe that Dutch was a manipulator ever since beginning. But i think that it's more like they want to believe that, rather than actually thinking about it.
I just recently played rdr2 for the first time and tbh I found Dutch to be pretty suspect from the jump. Especially when you're walking around camp and he'll sometimes be making preacher esque speeches that just came off as cult leader vibes.
@@PlaceHolderHandleOrWhaver yeah? It always felt like a responsible person that knows his responsibilities well doing his responsibilities.
@@PlaceHolderHandleOrWhaver The OG knew all along. ua-cam.com/video/5JckHCKzaNs/v-deo.html
@@TheMastermind7259 yeah just the way he spoke, and honestly the revelation that half of all the money made on scores was going to him for safe keeping just made me suspicious. I liked his character at the beginning and all but about midway through the game I was like "Alright yeah, dude's definitely up to something".
@@PlaceHolderHandleOrWhaver man, you need a *LOOOOT* more proof than just that. Whatever you ever mentioned for now was just "Uhm I think that this is suspicious." while it actually does make a lot of sense, and there's other explanations than just "Oh this guy is evil.", like "This man is responsible leader, a great one." or "Well, the money is needed for food and ammo and health care plus other bonuses, because that's literally what we spend it on.".
Like really.
If we were an empire, and I didn't want to make taxes, but we need to have a share of our money to afford stuff like public transportation, army, etcetera, i would make every other dollar made go to the empire to afford this all. It's similar to taxes, and it goes to good use. Just maybe a bit too much of a big share... However, I guess it's important. This empire is an enemy if a lot of people.
Find something more! The time I find Dutch evil is after Hosea died and Micah, that rat, got close enough to his ear, enough to speak and turn him into this.
man i loved javier up until this
*place smart profound personal reflection on video i just watched here* *place smart profound personal reflection on video i just watched here*
smth didn't work 😆
Poor Javier
There’s a difference…?
ill brainwash you little more, outlaw means actually OUT-LOVE meaning that these people wasn't tamed by love and people who is obedient and follows laws are tamed by love.
That ain't helping it. Everyone wants to feel love or be loved.
Hell, their loyalty isn't out of spite or money. Root of it is in love towards their group, they value it above all else.
Love isn't some "feeling" that you get in the guts, that's affection, infatuation.
Love is more than that.
@@kresovk5 No, wrong! You've been programmed to be desperate for love... If you learn some quantum physics you will realise that all u need is self love. Love can make u weak if u are addicted to it externaly.
@@ShadowEntxty quantum physics 😂😂💀💀
@@Louis13XIII You'll laugh till u realize it's actually real. Or you'll realize it in another life time if u stay dumb in this one.
@@ShadowEntxty bro actully open a physics book instead of trusting random new age gurus online 😂😂💀💀
Be strong, take the 6-th booster-vaccine
Be strong, don't insult politicians
Be strong, respect LGBTQ+
Be strong...
where's the brainwashing part?
The entire thing.
Dutch is like 80 percent of my family. Manipulative and narcissistic
Miss o sheaaaa
😎😎😎😎
Is this at the start/middle/end game? Sorry I’m at the start of the game 😊
@@ad-renaline2136 it's in chapter 3.
@@Garuda_31 thank you!
00:22