Me too. Trap bar deadlifts are much safer, in my experience. Never felt any of that sagittal plane instability. Never heard of it until this video (had to google it). He's dogmatic and old school in his approach; probably still uses a rotary dial phone.
James DeSantis he already said if you're so worried about your back you can squat which has its own advantages over the trap bar. the trap bar is literally a half squat. there's no benefit. also if you want to avoid training your back at all. you'll forever have a weak back
I love rip. He's not always right, but he is always loud when being wrong. He probably would have hated the invention of the barbell because it was not the rock with which he was taught to lift.
Way back in time, when the first barbell came out, one of Rip's ancestor stood in front of his students and said, "This useless piece of junk is called a barbell. I know that's a rather harsh statement, but I see no point in it...this is now being called a deadlift. This is a barbell. It is not a rock. And to perform a deadlift, you need a rock..."
I was thinking the same thing. "Only sissies squat barbells off of racks, real men stand up giant bars loaded with shot vertically, and then tilt them over onto their back!"
Rip is missing the point of why this is added to military fitness tests. A soldier is much more likely to do weighted carries in the field than static lifts. Trap bar deadlift training carries over (pun intended) to operational fitness more than a conventional competition deadlift.
Plus the trap bar deadlift allows for a more upright body posture and even distribution of weight throughout joints during the lift. Also a plus for long-term health fitness and medical readiness of soldiers.
That makes sense, although in that case I would ask why not use the farmer's carry instead as a military test? Surely that is the movement that most directpy simulates what they would be doing in the field?
Dead lift has more potential to make you stronger because the back angle is the same all the time. That specific back angle allows the posterior chain to be trained fully each session. Therefore, it makes you a stronger human being, which in turn makes the same weighted carries easier.
the wheelbarrow is loaded and anchored on the front wheel. This movement ( I don't think it is an exercise due to it's unrestrictive movement) allows you to ride the swing. That is not something that can be reproduced and thus not effective as I can see. It probably closest resembles a squat - so squat ! unless you want to hop on the swing after each rep. Good breakdown of this movement as it is easy to see it as an easy lift.. ... too easy
I just started using the trap bar because I have lower back and knee problems. So far it hasn't irritated any of these past injuries. I can't say the same about squats or deadlifts. I still plan on incorporating both of those but I feel like the trap bar is a good supplement to my routine that will add some relief to my back and knees. While still adding strength to core muscles with one exercise.
I hear you. Do what's best for your body, but sometimes pain in a properly formed movement will indicate an imbalance that you might need to rehab. This was the case for me. I rehabed my issues to strengthen the injured area enough to perform the lift at lower weights and basically start over. Now, I'm regaining my strength and mobility with the barbell deadlift and other compound movements. I appreciate his insight
You speak as if ignorance is a virtue. Ripp is one of the best strength coaches in the world. Read his book and actually do hard things the correct way.
@@mackenziebenedict8403 well I can tell you that the army doesn’t teach that and if they did, they’d screw it up. The trap bar is a dummy solution for a bunch of soldiers who won’t do their homework.
In his defence, he said it's bad when loading the trap bar with a lot of weight, which can result in you falling backwards and hurting yourself. That's NOT going to happen on a machine, so your point is simply WRONG.
Weight needs to be close to body or else dumb-asses get injured. The problem with the Trap bar is that it ''only'' contacts thé body at thé hands, making it more instable than a conventional barbell! Free don't mean free, baby! ;)
@@alejandroperez5368 1. That's why you start with 135 and don't fall over, then go to 140 and still don't fall over, then go to 145 and don't fall over and so forth. 2. Rip says himself that you can fall down on a heavy conventional deadlift, too. That's why they have spotters for deadlifts nowadays
I have the solutions to all the problems created in this video. 1. Don't let someone push your trap bar during the lift to avoid movement in the sagital plane. 2. Don't rock your hips forwards and backwards with your body while peforming the lift to avoid movement in the sagital plane. 3. Don't supinate and pronate your wrists or move your arms while performing the lift to avoid movement in the sagital plane. 4. Avoid Mark Rippetoe while doing Trap Bar deadlifts to avoid movement in the sagital plane. This made me think. If a movement has so many ways of being "unsafe" doesn't it indirectly prove that it requires proper technique to perform?
1. the movement is bound to happen with heavier lifts, even experienced lifters dont perform every lift correctly 2. isn't it the basis of the movement pattern though? rocking/moving your hips back and forwards? 3. just an extra precaution but my no.1 proves it wont matter with heavier weights 4. Sure this should work I disagree rippletoe on this being unsafe, but I do agree about the repeatability of the exercise and its very little use in any training format. Does this mean I dont like trap bar? NO, does this mean it does not help you ? no? But the point of any equipment in the gym in my opinion is that you should be able to train with it with high repeatibility. You can get better at lots of stuffs with trap bar deadlift, but I have only found literally two uses for it and it being a plyometric jump with weight, and a farmers walk, any other stuffs with it requires a lot of expertise and lots of "feel dependent" movement to perform it to an equal ability. There's ways you feel like you are doing it like you did last time, but no, due to the equipment allowing me to freely move my hands, hips anywhere I want, at any angle I want and less clue, it can affect the way I execute the deadlift with same repeatibility. Farmers walk , it does not matter where I put my hands and during jumps, I am focusing on jumping with the weight without worrying my back angle and hand positions, So I find it very useful in those But perhaps I have heard people telling me how useful it is for those who have back pains and stuffs,
@@ankitpradhan4183 If your argument was correct for the trap bar deadlift then it would also apply to squats which are also open to motion in the sagittal plane. As with squats, motion in the sagittal plane does not mean that form is unrepeatable - it simply means that form needs to be learned until it becomes repeatable.
@@gsquared2394 bad comparison, your feet are on solid ground when using a trap bar. Literally no science supports the trap bar as being inferior to the barbell conventional deadlift
I feel that a farmer walk with a heavy loaded trap bar builds grip strength, shoulder stability, back, leg and hip strength; all useful for building strength in deadlift and squat. Is this really so useless?
Terrence Taylor I do farmers walk because I heard they work traps better than shrugs. I still work in shrugs every now and then but farmers walk is good for a change.
Bro I’m giving up on squats and deadlift I had an injury in both knees at least I can use the leg curl machines and press but you are right the hex is easy
@@mmartinisgreat I KICK ASS ON THOSE TWO non stop And slow :) well synchronized I like those two machines they are fun it really sucks I injury my two knees I was rope skipping single legged with a ten pound vest and that’s how I got injured really bad
@@ixcoatl0013 Good luck with your injuries, if you can tolerate without pain also try backwards pulling a sled or heavy object even at my worst it didn’t give me pain & helped strengthen the legs
Why is instability noted as a positive when comparing free-weights to machines (recruiting stabilizing muscles), but not when comparing trap bar to barbell?
I think it has to do with instability that we can physically control ie : barbell and dumbbell. And then what the trap bar asks of us in terms of stability ie: trying to control 200kgs from a squat position with the arms, but not allowing the lats or shoulder to apply their strength and stability as you would in the deadlift.
Because machines have a set range of motion which does not apply to everyone, where as free weights can be adapted to your anthropometry and mobility. I don't know about instability being seen as positive tho, especially by rip
This dude is the most dogmatic person I have ever seen. I love the Hex bar at my gym (no high handles, so you are at the same depth, and its a 70lb bar) It is so much more comfortable, and natural feeling. Pull 500 off the ground is pulling 500 off the ground. Do it anyway you want that will keep you healthy, and happy.
It probably feels easier because your shoulder, and hands are in a far more comfortable position. I only pull about 5 percent more with a trap bar than I do a conventional.
why are you so mad on behalf of rip when i dont doubt that rip would agree that he is dogmatic, and his reasoning would be something along the lines of "im dogmatic because i've figured out what actually works." he wasnt even insulting him
This video has convinced me, the trap bar is single best tool in the entire gym. I’ve learned from long experience whatever Rip says to do I should do the opposite.
Man i watched that part like 5 times in a row and i can't stop laughing...i mean with the way he says and stands with zero fucks given.... totally chill badass
Dislocated my shoulder. Ever sonce, no more deadlift. The rotation of my hands on the bar put too much strain on the rotator cuff of my shoulder. Trap bad allows me to keep the shoulder in the neutral position and still perform a modified dead lift.
Why does this guy keep popping up on my feed? Studies have shown the trap bar produces more force, can be used more for greater force. Also may be better for those with lower back problems.
Exactly. You can build power through the legs, and hips as you would during a deadlift without the worry about smoking your back. Plus the hand position and bar path helps you train more lats and traps. So if power and speed from the ground is the goal then this is GREAT. His whole argument is shit form and inconsistencies in movement makes it dangerous 😂
I've been wondering the same thing. Anyone with questions regarding the trap bar should look at the article Greg nuckols has. Actual science and not "it looks different than a conveniental deadlift so it's bad!!!!"
@@tylerweibel8049 "put him against some boxer or athlete same age and weight", um, what strength coach wouldn't that argument apply to lol? yeah ofc boxers will beat up ppl who lift barbells up for a living, what does that prove
I'm in my late 50s and built size and strength from regular barbell deadlifts/ shrugs however since I started using the trap bar years ago I feel I have made more progress.
@@jonathanmejia5878 keep it simple dude it’s just probably so much better for his spine , the weight isn’t in front of him but at his side , he’s pretty so that could make change
As a man who grew up lifting things off each side, and lugging about huge blocks of wood in work, and even pulling a cultivator in the garden when the tractor broke down, I will say this: this guy wouldn't last a day on a farm without having an aneurism.
@@GoalOrientedLifting high bar, low bar, narrow stance, wide stance, high bar wide stance, low bar narrow stance, barefoot, elevated heel, ridiculously elevated heel, elevated toe, front squats...
This argument is based on an imaginary problem - that while the trap bar is lifted it will suddenly start to oscillate front to back and even side to side. If you lift it correctly - straight up - this will not happen. If some small amount of oscillation does manage to creep its way into the lift, your muscles will be forced to stabilize this movement. This is why loaded carries are useful - they train the body to stabilize a load while moving. This type of strength is extremely useful in real life. Last August I helped my mother move. I didn't pick up a box and then immediately set it down. I picked up a box, walked with it, sometimes up a set of stairs, then put it down. I am not necessarily saying that the trap bar should be a complete substitute for the barbell deadlift, but to say that is is useless is just Rip being his typical dogmatic self which many of us have learned to ignore.
Agreed. Just like any heavy deadlift the weight is not going to come off the ground unless it is over the mid foot, so you shouldn't see any pendulum effect. So what is going to introduce the oscillation? There may be some room to argue that locking out with the bar against you could help minimize the likelihood of over-extending the lower back, but even that shouldn't really be a problem. I just don't see this as much more than a Chicken Little, "The sky is falling!" issue. I think he stated his real problem with it when he got the question about trap bars at the opening of one of the SS gyms. It doesn't require any real coaching like it does to safely perform a heavy barbell DL.
The whole point of the bar is to lift straight up anyway, as it was designed for greater stability (your center is better). So anyone lifting a trap bar any other way, honestly deserves to get injured. You are supposed to lift STRAIGHT UP AND FEET PLANTED CORRECTLY UNDERNEATH YOU!
@@TrustNJesusChrist Exactly. What makes the trap bar user friendly is that the weight is perfectly balanced through your center of gravity because with your arms at your sides they are perfectly centered through your body. This is not possible with a bar. A lifter would have to do something very strange to get the trap bar oscillating.
A trap bar with the plates facing outward while wearing giant loud headphones, a pair of Vibram Five Fingers, some booty shorts and complaining that the gym isn't clean.
that doesn't really mean much does it, the only thing that says is they under overloaded or their technique is wrong. That's not the issue with the barbell deadlift. It exactly enforces the fact that the trap bar is less effective in training the area's it is supposed to
Completely disagree. You’re still picking up a weight from the floor. Yes it changes the position of the back and the location of your grip, but to call it useless and “so dissimilar” from the deadlift is wrong. We trained novice athletes on this and when they transitioned to a barbell, their conventional deadlift increased.
Iron Adversity wouldn’t novice athletes increase performance rather quickly with proper training due to being a novice? Don’t novice lifters progress initially faster than advanced lifters? May be a factor.
Richard Mann trap bar deadlifts are far less technical and allow newer lifters to pick up weight off the floor without so much gamble on their form killing their lumbars. My point is that the trap bar is not useless.
Freddy Ruiz he would potentially have bulging disc and back issues just for some arbitrary attainment of back strength? Sorry but the detriments just appear to outweigh the benefits for me at large.
Well, it does sterilize everything. If it was cooked you don't have to worry about e coli and you are not going to develop botulism overnight - or at all since you have salt and acidity in chili.
@@markus64s By his own definition, strength is how much weight you pull. Trap bar allows you to pull more weight. It's also considered better for power production and athletic performance in general.
@@kurtisbaxter6422 Stronger where? Not your lower back, abs or forearms. I could leg press more than I can squat, but strengthening muscles in isolation is not efficient. A barbell is more consistent with his philosophy.
I maxed my barbell deadlift, then easily matched it with a trap bar. As an older lifter, I also find the trap bar to be more comfortable lift. I understand the movement in the sagittal plane, however, having to pull on the bar in order to demonstrate the instability lessens the effectiveness of the argument. Just show the sway under normal circumstances. “Let me show you the instability by applying a force not included in the movement” is a silly experiment.
@@PlaciSantos Next to nothing. If you max at weight X on incline bench then you're likely to max at more than X on flat bench no matter how strong or weak you are. The same can be applied for barbell and trap bar deadlift.
“In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few” The trap bar is the only way I can still deadlift and reap the benefits. I’ve had four structural knee surgeries for a fractured kneecap I suffered years ago. I simply can’t barbell deadlift due to that. It’s not form based, it’s structural. The bar unloaded just lightly rolling up my knee by rep 3 or 4 has the ability to cause intense swelling and pain. This keeps me out of the gym and makes it impossible for me to ever properly load the exercise for any benefit. Nothing I can do about that. Trap bar allows me to keep doing a variation of my favourite exercise. Would I prefer to do barbell? Obviously. But life isn’t that simple or cut and dry. This is a super disappointing video to see from someone I have much respect for. If someone was in a wheelchair would you say “seated shoulder press is trash. Standing overhead press is the ONLY way.” Come on Mark....
Agreed. You can still get good strength gains from trap bar lifts, and if you need to focus on a particular body part that is being neglected, you can always target them seperately. There is more than one way to skin a cat and become strong. The main concern will always be safety and well being. The old meatheads can get off it. Besides, a person who truly is into fitness/bodybuilding/powerlifting etc.. would not shun a popular exercise equipment to begin with. Variety is the spice of life as well.
I think an SSC would do you well. I have never touched my knee with a deadlift. The bar is to be placed 1 inch off the shins and then slides of the thighs. It does not slide up the shins, kneecaps and thighs
I would suggest you do seated deadlifts/hacksquats. They are a good move for anyone to use but very obvious for your situation. The trap bar is mainly there if you have to have neutral shoulders for some reason not for leg issues. I think rip also has some guys in wheelchairs who do exactly this.
the trap bar IS the smith machine of deadlifts. Requires little or no thought and technique when compared to an Olympic bar. Do you think the industry's best deadlifters spend all of their time practising on trap bars?
Oh man, I respect Mark, but this video is silly. I've strictly trapbar deadlifted for 2 years now and went from 475lbs to 675lbs in that time. It's much safer than conventional/sumo, allows more overload of the upperback/traps/quads/everything. It will make you strong. If anyone wants to read an informative article about the TB Deadlift and why it is great, see greg knuckols in depth article: www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/. Not everyone is confined to powerlifting.
If you train deadlifts to strengthen your upperback/traps/quads you are missing the point. The trap bar deadlift is not a good substitution of the conventional, exactly because the conventional deadlift stresses the back and torso muscles (which is the fucking point of the exercise) more while TBD DOESNT. You may get stronger in that exercise, as with all other exercises, but that doens't say much about your back and your hamstrings. If you stop conventional deadlifting, you stop effectively strengthening these muscle groups. In a strength-based program that's extremely problematic. Seriously, its funny how so many people simply don't listen to the point Mark makes and simply spew their dogshit all over the place.
@@harris2898 no offense, but what you said makes zero sense. I know it makes all of those areas stronger. I literally just pulled 5 plates conventional after strictly trapbar deadlifting for a long time. My squat is 450. I hipthrust 600lbs for reps. I weigh 195lbs.Read the article. Greg knuckols knows his shit. Saying you can't strengthen those areas by doing alternative exercises is dogmatic thinking. If you did good mornings, hipthrusts, and squats you would pull big numbers without even deadlifting.
@@coopaloop727272 I never said TBDs dont work your back. What I said is TBDs dont work your back as much as a conventional deadlift would. That's the argument Rip is using and that is the one that makes sense to me. You might be a very strong dude. Your personal experience is not evidence for or against the argument Mark is presenting. The reason why im being a spastic, replying to internet comments, is because you criticize something without any proper argumentation against it. You lifting heavy weights says NOTHING about the effectiveness of your training. You need to introduce a lot more parameters (such as time spend in the gym daily, years spent training, dieting habits and so on) in order to make a point here, and you clearly do none o fthat. After 10 years of lifting, I might as well lift '5 plates' conventional, with dogshit form and dogshit training method.
Zha roon Studies show that sumo deadlifts are closer to a squatting movement than a trap bar... basic anatomy being a safer position for the back, neutral grip to place biceps in a safer position etc. Anatomically if you want to hinge you do good mornings, stiff legged or romanian deadlifts, even damn kettlebell swings. Hurr durr straight bar is the best is dogmatic and stupid.
A conventional deadlift becomes too difficult to do with a double overhand grip before too long and you will have to start using an over/under grip. For me, this feels unbalanced, where my externally rotated arm in the underhand grip has my bicep tearing in no time. Personally, I feel I get better results from alternating Romanian Deadlifts and Pendlay Rows for volume every other workout, and Rack Pulls and Trap Bar Deads on alternating heavy days. There's less overuse because the back is getting slightly different stimulus. The trap bar is fine. It's a useful tool for when conventional gets stale, or when your anthropomatry doesn't favor conventional deads.
I got put on to him by a mate and couldnt believe what a nasty boorish bore he was. Taking thousands of dollars off people while making them look stupid for asking a question. His way or no way??
I switched to an open trap bar earlier this year, pulled heavier with it than I could with a barbell, due to a better starting position (it negated my belly and bad proportions for deadlifting)
Greg Nuckols article about the hinge squat continuum destroys the whole “it’s not a deadlift, it’s a squat” argument, so I’ll just move on from that. The most reasonable point Rip brings up is the vertical arm grip, which I can definitely agree is optimal for pulling maximal weight. In fact, I know some trap bar manufacturers (like Kabuki Strength) have adjustable handle widths, which I think goes a long way towards remedying that issue. Otherwise though, I don’t really consider the TBDL all that worrisome. Use it as an accessory if you do powerlifting or strongman (like Alan Thrall), or even as a primary lift if you’re not interested in competition. I fail to see the harm done in that approach.
ATimelessParadox thanks for the post I hadn’t come across the Nuckles article. Based on the article you’re right that the TBDL is closer to a hinge than a squat. But the barbell deadlift is still more of a hinge than the TBDL. So Rippetoe is correct that the TBDL doesn’t train the back as much as the barbell DL. Although he did overstate it when he said the TBDL was more of a squat. From the article, “For the conventional deadlift... The ratio of peak hip moment to peak knee moment was 3.68:1.” And “For the trap bar deadlift... The ratio of peak hip moment to peak knee moment was 1.78:1.” That’s a big difference. In my view, since you should also be squatting, the traditional DL will give you a more well-rounded training routine. But if I had the time and needed more volume I might add the TBDL. Nuckels does have some things to say about back injuries, etc, but I think his arguments are very weak here. For any weightlifting routine you should be progressively loading more stress. Maybe more weight, maybe more volume, depending on your goals. Injuries can happen when you try too much. But this is true of knee injuries too, not just the back. And I don’t think rounding the back has the magical property of causing injuries. It’s part of the back’s normal range of motion. Rounding the back during a traditional DL is bad because you’re not strengthening the erector spinae muscles - not because it’ll cause injury. Here’s the link to the Nuckols article www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/
@@CaptainTechnical The bigger point is that trap bar simply gives you more degrees of freedom. You can make your trap bar DL relatively quad-dominant, or you can make it as hip-dominant as an RDL (or anything in between). It's not inherently more quad-dominant. Also, for training purposes, I'd say that absolute hip moments (which are very similar) matter considerably more than the ratio of knee to hip moments.
@@CaptainTechnical Another important take away is not just the hip:knee torque ratio, but also how the actual forces compare in absolute terms. The hip torque is actually very similar between the two, the reason for the different ratio is that the trap bar deadlift has much higher knee torque (though still not anywhere near as high as in a squat). So trap bar deadlifts don't train the hips any less, they just train the knees more. And something else that's interesting is how the hip:knee torque ratio is lower on the sumo deadlift than the trap bar deadlift, and when you compare the squat/deadlift variations in a hip:knee torque ratio continuum you see that the trap bar deadlift is by far the closest to the barbell deadlift, with the sumo being the "least deadlift like" (and most "squat like") of the deadlift variations. And for a given % of maximum load, the sumo does in fact produce lower hip torque and lower posterior chain activation, unlike the trap bar. So all the negative things people usually have to say about the trap bar deadlift aren't just wrong (or at the very least grossly exagerated), but they apply far, far more so to the sumo deadlift. Which most of these people would indeed consider a valid and "real" deadlift. Proving that the issue people have with the trap bar deadlift has really nothing to do with it's effectiveness as a strength exercise, or the muscles it recruits, but simply because it's not a straight barbell, which they seem to think has some magical proprieties that make every conceivable movement that the human body is capable of better by using it. It's just bar racism.
This persuaded me to buy a trap bar: it felt like I was listening to someone forcefully explaining why, say, guns would never hold a candle to bows and arrows.
Your analogy is defective. The trap bar is like a bee bee gun or air gun. The Olympic bar is like a proper magnum. You don't see professional powerlifters or weight lifters turn up at an official competition to lift a trap bar, do you?
@@spursblood1 buddy like 95% of people who lift are not competing in powerlifting/weightlifting competitions and could not give 2 fucks if their lift gets them 3 white lights or what their raw wilks is or how much they can squat jerk. Most people are lifting for fun and health, not for numbers. Get off your high horse.
I actually understand exactly what he's talking about. He makes perfect sense, but only for a certain set of individuals, training for certain goals. I dint recommend a trap bar for new lifters , powerlifters , or other small groups of people who need to be locked into a specific position while training, but for the rest of people, its absolutely fine. I always recommend a rotating routine, switching between bars on a week to week basis. There is no reason not to use both. These bars are tools, use them, and have a greater range of increasing strength and movement. Only when training for a specific goal should be cutting things out and concentrate on a lift like the deadlift. The deadlift is very important, training it is a staple of my training, but how i train it isnt locked in, unless im competing soon. Train however your most comfortable. Its always uo to the individual doing the work, im sorry the trap bar is far from trash, i love it personally. Im getting older, and it makes training a bit easier on my joints and adds more longevity to my training. If i had a show, id train with sololy and Olympic bar, but that would be the only reason, and im done with that for the most part. Lift as you will, brother. If the hex bar adds years to your training and movements , do it.
@@datguy4104 If anyone was ever injured from the trap bar, they deserve the injury. AGAIN, the trap bar's selling point IS its stability. Your center of gravity is not pulled like the deadlifts with bars. You are supposed to lift straight up with your feet nice and planted underneath you. How could you fuck this up?! Its not that hard to control.
It's dogmatic because the trap bar is a viable option for some people, in some situations. For example, to reiterate Alan Thralls point in a recent video of his, the trap bar is a great tool if you want a less taxing deadlift variation using the "high handles" whilst still getting decent work in. Implementing this every month or so, for me at least, has worked wonders for my overall ability to recover.
Yeah.. there is. DOD isn’t going to spend time how to properly deadlift, and the trap bar is more natural for people. We’re talking about training marines and grunts, not oly and powerlifters. Rip’s opinions on military fitness are always redundant.
I used a trap bar with the raised grips, because I have an L4-L5-S1 full fusion, and I can't do squats with heavy weight. I'm incredibly sore in the correct places a day later, so it's clearly hitting the right areas. It seems a lot safer than having the weight way out in front of your legs, putting your lumbar spine in an awkward position.
So it's a physical therapy tool. Not saying it doesn't have it's place, but the whole "awkward position" of your lumbar that you elude to is precisely the point of the deadlift.
@@adammeade2300 if you have perfect form, and you've always had perfect form, it's fine to deadlift. No one can maintain perfect form when lifting for a PR. I used to be an Olympic lifter and powerlifter, so I've seen this first hand hundreds of times, if not more. If you have a spinal injury, or if your family has a history of lumbar spinal injuries, they're not a good idea. For me, they're out of the question, as are heavy squats. I suppose it depends if you're doing them to build strength with good form, or you're doing them for a competition. Competitive weightlifters are typically pretty busted up in their 50s, if not sooner. This kind of reminds me of the CrossFit debate. I'm old enough to remember when it first became a craze. Everyone was begging me to start doing it with them, almost like a cult. I'm sure they have fun, and there's a sense of camaraderie. I imagine they make a lot of friends. But, I don't know a single CrossFit practitioner who hasn't been injured at least once. I was an ex collegiate wrestler. I came out of undergrad with a bunch of overuse injuries already. I didn't need any more.
@@DDDYLN You’ve certainly got more experience with the lift than I do. I’m 42 and have done a lot of training over my lifetime, but I come from a martial arts/boxing background. It’s only recently that I began to squat, bench, ohp, deadlift. I’ve grown to love the deadlift but, to your point, I’m just training to get stronger. PR’s seem like a young man’s game and a great way to injure yourself. I can’t say I have “perfect” form, but my background in martial arts certainly instilled in me the importance of proper and efficient mechanics, so I always warm up well and would rather lift less weight with correct form than go for a record and achieve nothing but accolades. I’m a small guy, like very close to Bruce Lee’s size and build, so I’ve no illusions of becoming some hulking mass of man. Also, I remember well that it was Bruce Lee’s simple neglect of a regular warm up routine on “good mornings” that resulted in his chronic and horrible back pain. I’m also an MRI technician and I scan janky backs everyday, so I do appreciate the potential dangers. Just seems like an earnest focus on sound physiology and the avoidance of ego lifting can make this a profitable and sustainable movement.
@@adammeade2300 100%. I was 23 when I was training for a powerlifting meet. I never even got to compete, because I injured my lumbar spine. I'm 47. Even if I could go back and tell my 23 year old self not to do it, I know he wouldn't listen! I was built like a hulk at that point in my life. I didn't think I could be hurt. I was very wrong. I had been captain and MVP of my collegiate wrestling team. I came out of undergraduate, and went to graduate school, with a lot of unaddressed injuries from wrestling. I tried to ignore them. However, they didn't ignore me. And those overuse injuries, combined with my ego, were what led to injuring my lumbar spine.
I saw the UA-cam video of Rip answering an older lifter's question about the trap bar. Two weeks later, this video feels like Rip doubling down on silliness. 1. Talking about the sagittal plane and grabbing another person's trap bar at its high point in order to make it swing reminds me of watching a fast talking infomercial huckster do their thing. Nobody grabs another person's bar at its high point. And small movements of a bar at its high point (e.g. the press) requires the body to work on stabilization which doesn't strike me as being a bad thing. But I'd also add, I started using the trap bar 6 months ago and have been lifting over the 405 lbs Rip mentioned in this video, and I have never noticed any swing of the bar in any of my lifts and certainly never felt at risk or any after effects from lifting heavy with a trap bar. 2. I've always assumed that the spotters behind deadlifters at events are because people have passed out after deadlifting to the maximum of their capacity - and having felt briefly light headed after some heavy deadlift pulls, I still think that's the reason. 3. I've never met a person who has injured themselves using a trap bar for heavy lifts. I've met plenty of people who have injured themselves deadlifting with a conventional bar. 4. Greg Nuckols has a really interesting article "Trap Bar Deadlifts are Underrated" comparing the conventional and trap bar deadlifts. He beings with: "I’m a bit ashamed to admit that I used to be a barbell purist. I’m not sure how the idea got lodged in my head, but I spent quite a few years working with the assumption that barbell exercises were always (or almost always) superior to their biomechanically similar, non-barbell counterparts. It took me way too long to realize and accept that trap bar deadlifts are a superior option for most people in most contexts than the straight bar deadlift. Both research and my own self-experimentation helped me see the light." Clearly Rip's not there yet.
"Talking about the sagittal plane and grabbing another person's trap bar at its high point in order to make it swing reminds me of watching a fast talking infomercial huckster do their thing." This is great line - and accurate.
My best deadlift is 630. I tried to deadlift about 350 on a trap bar and had to drop it because it started to swing just a little bit. You probably wouldn't have been able to see that swinging motion, so Rip exaggerated it to make his point.
@@sleepingtube sorry, but that sounds weird. I trap bar for variations and out pull conventional all the time with zero swings. This sounds like bollocks to me...
Gareth, I saw that video too and if RIP replied to my reasonable question the way he did that guy he would have had issues. Utterly rude and disrespectful to a paying customer asking a teacher a fair question. Money back moment.
I'm getting a trap bar because I want to increase my verticle jump. The motion of lifting with a trap bar is more accurate to actually jumping than the motion of lifting a deadlift. You're inertia is being pulled forward with deadlifting, but with trap bars, it mimics a free-weight jump. I don't see how you think it isn't good for strength training though?
You can just be stronger and increase your vertical jump, i.e squat/deadlift. The implication that you have to do some sort of weighted jump exercise to increase your vertical jump that way is retarded (aka functional training).
@@wreagfe you have to practice explosive training to increase your vertical. You also have to practice explosive training with weights using proper form.
I know plenty of ppl including myself who pulled something on deadlifts with a bar. How many ppl do I know hurt themselves with a trap bar? Zero. Not saying it never happens. But this is retarded to say the trap bar deadlift is dangerous
Just wait. The Army is implementing the new test now. Although you wouldn't know it since it still hasn't figured out how to issue enough equipment to actually run a test...
I don't know, I changed from deadlifts to trap bar deadlifts and improved my lower back, rehabbed injuries etc... , I got more results with less injuries etc..
Starting strength dudes are so dogmatic with their “lord and savior” Mark rippetoe, it think Rip sometimes is very black and white on certain things, sometimes you use the equipment thats necessary to accomplish a task. I’ve found using trap bar as an excellent training tool and variation to the conventional.
I did the same thing, except I just dropped the weight back down to 135 and slowly built back up while focusing on getting the form down good. Now if I hurt my back at work I can legit just go deadlift and be good after.
It's very unstable when heavy when using he low handles. The high handles make it very stable but limit the range of motion. A good way to gain all benefits is to use the high handles while standing on plates to lengthen the range of motion back. It makes the ROM almost identical to using the low handles but gives much more stability.
For most people the limited ROM isn't even a concern. That's only if you're intent on competing, so only about 1 in 10,000 need to care about depth of the movement. Trap Bars should be one of the first things the average person buys for a home gym.
@@AcceleratingUniverse So Rip, who's had a career in strength training for decades, only tried a trap bar deadllift in 2020? Or maybe it's more likely that he's had it for a very long time? Also, plot twist: he didn't really throw it away, he took it back inside after filming.
The fact that hips can be in any position and you can still load extremely heavy is exactly why this is useful Various leverages with unlimited load potential creates a great environment for injury rehabilitation with some serious ass progressive overload That is a incredible opportunity for rehabilitation or poor mobility clients a hell of a tool.
@@nathanridgeway1826 lol You must be American. The American Dream doesn't apply in sport. Some people are born better, and no matter how how hard you train, or how little they train, will not change that.
My lower back is trashed and the hex bar helps me deadlift and squat without exacerbating the problem. Is it for everyone? Probably not. Does it help me? Definitely yes
If you were to pick up 2 heavy suit cases, would you pick them up in front of you like a dead lift.. or naturally side by side... Trap bar aint for strength of back, most people know that, its a safe way to lift and strengthen legs.
You lift them side by side because they are TWO, so you cannot lift them otherwise. Thats like creating a problem and then selling a solution for it. If its one heavy suitcase, like 300lbs, i dont think many people would try to lift it sideways, or try to split it in half in order to lift half the weight in each side... Try it.
@@Aris19Q Except you're more likely to have to lift two things that are 150 lbs. each than one "suitcase" that weighs 300 lbs. Rip just makes this stuff up as he goes.
I agree. It’s easier to teach 100 recruits the trap bar lift than a back squat and deadlift. Also with a squat you need a cage or rack. It more closely mimics carrying a couple of heavy ammo cases or bags of gear.
The conventional deadlift and trap bar deadlift are non-specific to military tasks. Why does it matter? They are soldiers, not powerlifters. I think both are perfectly fine for non-specific resistance training. I personally prefer the conventional deadlift, but it does not matter for their purposes.
@Southside Kettlebell Why? In the military you carry things at your side just like with a trap bar. It really doesn't matter which deadlift you use. As Eli said, soldiers are not powerlifters. Unless you're a powerlifter there is not need to pick the conventional deadlift over a trap bar.
We don't deadlift because it's in powerlifting. Deadlift is in powerlifting *because* we do it. If trab bar was the best exercise, powerlifting would've adopted it instead.
I was taught how to deadlift with a conventional barbell in the Army and I can tell you with absolute certainty that I don’t think the standard Soldier has any business in pretending how to teach a conventional barbell deadlift.
The overhead press is also unstable at the top of the movement. Farmers walks and shrugs with the trap bar are hugely better than with a barbell. Also, farmers walks are very unstable.
@@resellworld nonsense. I will take Nuckoll's thoughtful and evidence based reasoning on the matter over RIP's dogma and continue to do BOTH for variation.
I also want to add that the swing is not a thing. I dead lift my sets with 425 on the trap bar. I do the same on the barbell. Neither one moves or swings during the movement. If you’re swinging around 400 pounds then you probably don’t need to worry about the sagittal plane. Swinging only happens if you’re using really lightweight.
It’s really a shame many young lifters listen to this fella like it’s gospel. What about the crazy idea of trap bar deadlifting AND straight bar deadlifting?!? Crazy idea, I know.
I can only imagine how many prospective kids would get hurt doing straight bar deadlifts on a PT test. I'm willing to bet the majority of these kids have never deadlifted and you really don't want to jump straight to maxing (since you're going for a high score) on a somewhat technical lift. So many people new to deadlifting put their feet in the wrong spot, let their hips sink like it's a squat and round their back to accommodate the sunken hips and having to lean forward at the start so they can balance.
It's an excellent bar for a hybrid exercise of a squat and deadlift. It's amazing for supplemental exercise Adding these allowed me to add more volume while easing the load on my lower back I pull over 600
@Southside Kettlebell, it depends. If you have shoulder issues (for whatever reason), low bar squats are impractical. So you either have to high bar squat or use a trapbar deadlift in addition with a barbell deadlift. The versatility of the trapbar (ability to switch back angles) is not a bad thing and it's easier to learn. And my FTR, my best lift of all the big barbell lifts is the barbell deadlif, so I'm not someone who hates the barbell.
100%. Whats wrong with using it on other days when you dont squat or deadlift in your program. Better yet, experimenting with it to see how your body reacts? Silly barbell dogma
@@phamawa nothing is wrong with it I use both. The trap bar is more unstable for sure. He's probably just seen a bunch of idiots in his gym getting nearly pretzeled so many times he just had to make a video lol. I have a respectable deadlift for an average guy and feel they can both be used properly and provide results. Research trap bar for running. It has its uses.
I'm a collegiate strength and conditioning coach with quite a few years of experience, and my default deadlift is the trap bar deadlift, precisely because it keeps the athlete in a more verticle torso position, which is very similar to a basic athletic position, which is almost univerally common to most sports. You see this position across a mutitude of different sports, from a DB in football, to tennis, to baseball, to wrestling. If I were to just write deadlift on my athlete's chart, they would automatically reach for the trap bar. I'd have to specify conventional deadlift in order for them to use a barbell.
Rip is just about in tears over this LOL. The trap bar is an awesome peice of gear, if you have to get an entire army training then of course trap bar will be easier to teach them.
And you don't need your soldiers constantly out due to back injuries or rolled shoulders. Rip can't think three dimensional... he only sees competitive lifting avenues. When you've got to grab to cans or boxes of extremely heavy ammo to one point or another in battle. You are NOT going to pick them up from the front and run with them. There is such a thing as specific type training.
Plus it's much easier to properly execute a trap bar deadlift than a barbell one when someone is exhausted. When would that person be exhausted? Maybe in the middle of a PT test where the soldier has just run 2 miles, done sled drags, pushups, sprints, etc. As mentioned above, he's approaching this from the perspective of a powerlifting coach and not from someone familiar with the needs of the military.
@@whenhen no, he's approaching it from a follow-me-cultishly-and-buy-my-books standpoint. You don't have to read far to find out he has no credibility among actual powerlifters.
Stay tuned for Mark's upcoming video: "Why Carrying a Couple of Heavy Suitcases is Completely Useless with Mark Rippetoe". In it, Mark states that when carrying suitcases, they are unrestricted in the sagittal plane. The suit cases can swing when you pick them up and most importantly, they can swing while you're carrying them.
The trap bar is a useful compromise for folks who lack mobility and or who have low back issues that would otherwise make the deadlift difficult and painful to perform. Lighten up Rip.
"these damn pesky kids with there music and trap bars are ruining the neighborhood"
😂🤣
Get off my lawn!!!
Hahaha
😂😂😂
He'll have an aneurysm when he finds out about trap music.
Thanks for the video. After watching it I've come to the conclusion that I'm still going to use my trap bar.
Absolutely!
Shhhhhhh rip will hear you and send guys!!!😳
Me too. Trap bar deadlifts are much safer, in my experience. Never felt any of that sagittal plane instability. Never heard of it until this video (had to google it). He's dogmatic and old school in his approach; probably still uses a rotary dial phone.
@@jamesdesantis9420 a special made rotary dial iPhone, for calling Joe Rogan
James DeSantis he already said if you're so worried about your back you can squat which has its own advantages over the trap bar. the trap bar is literally a half squat. there's no benefit. also if you want to avoid training your back at all. you'll forever have a weak back
Trap bar is the best way to train for bringing in the groceries in one trip and flexing on neighbour Dads.
Db farmer carries are better for that.
HAHAH
@@anaussie213 idk if I’m strong enough to carry a farmer let alone farmers
I routinely put all my grocery bags on my trap bar to carry it all in one trip.
Functional!
After watching this, I've decided to order a trap bar
me too, srsly. I want one now
They're amazing. I love training with my trap bar.
So much easier on my lower back
I use mine for frame carry, hits my traps (get it?) better then anything.
Mine is on the way lol
I love rip. He's not always right, but he is always loud when being wrong. He probably would have hated the invention of the barbell because it was not the rock with which he was taught to lift.
He'd say lifting the rock trains your grip and that it's much more likely to carry over into useful skill.,😂😂😂
It’s not that he’s wrong about the trap bar because he’s not from his point of view. It’s not an effective and safe deadlift for competition.
You attack is character because you can't attack the argument
@@keenanschouten2582 I can attack the argument. Get me in a room with him and a camera. His point of view is too narrow
@@coachcurt9037 His view is narrow because Scientific claims are very narrow. He's talking about what is "optimal" for strength and safety.
Way back in time, when the first barbell came out, one of Rip's ancestor stood in front of his students and said, "This useless piece of junk is called a barbell. I know that's a rather harsh statement, but I see no point in it...this is now being called a deadlift. This is a barbell. It is not a rock. And to perform a deadlift, you need a rock..."
🤣🤣😂😂😂😂
Lmaooooooo
Well said
I was thinking the same thing. "Only sissies squat barbells off of racks, real men stand up giant bars loaded with shot vertically, and then tilt them over onto their back!"
But you can't lock out a trap bar completely onto your posterior chain...I can see how that changes everything.
Mark definitly made this video directly after falling over with a trap bar.
Rip is missing the point of why this is added to military fitness tests. A soldier is much more likely to do weighted carries in the field than static lifts. Trap bar deadlift training carries over (pun intended) to operational fitness more than a conventional competition deadlift.
Plus the trap bar deadlift allows for a more upright body posture and even distribution of weight throughout joints during the lift. Also a plus for long-term health fitness and medical readiness of soldiers.
That makes sense, although in that case I would ask why not use the farmer's carry instead as a military test? Surely that is the movement that most directpy simulates what they would be doing in the field?
@@michaelthimes Okay, that makes sense for extraction. It is a similar movement.
Dead lift has more potential to make you stronger because the back angle is the same all the time. That specific back angle allows the posterior chain to be trained fully each session. Therefore, it makes you a stronger human being, which in turn makes the same weighted carries easier.
@@Account2129 isn't the discussion about testing in the military though, not necessarily training.
This is why I will never use a wheelbarrow, I’ll be dammed if I don’t respect the Sagittal plane
Never admired the strength of those landscapers anyway.
This made me laugh. 😂😂
Good one! 😆
You just pointed out the logical reason why this guy is blowing smoke.
the wheelbarrow is loaded and anchored on the front wheel. This movement ( I don't think it is an exercise due to it's unrestrictive movement) allows you to ride the swing. That is not something that can be reproduced and thus not effective as I can see. It probably closest resembles a squat - so squat ! unless you want to hop on the swing after each rep. Good breakdown of this movement as it is easy to see it as an easy lift.. ... too easy
The grumpiest man in fitness.
dogmatic
Hes in another video complaining about racking weight plates. The comments are hysterical!!!!!!
The Hoodlum link it 🤣🤣 would love to see
Who’s not even fit lol
It's all that protein powder, backs him up, the guy hasn't dropped the kids off in weeks.
“The back is the legs of the upper body” Dom’ Mazzetti
Randy Gravel I'm fat natty but look decent bc I always hit the back hard lol
The chest is just the arm's butt.
I just started using the trap bar because I have lower back and knee problems. So far it hasn't irritated any of these past injuries.
I can't say the same about squats or deadlifts.
I still plan on incorporating both of those but I feel like the trap bar is a good supplement to my routine that will add some relief to my back and knees. While still adding strength to core muscles with one exercise.
I'm about buy one are you still liking it?
I hear you. Do what's best for your body, but sometimes pain in a properly
formed movement will indicate an imbalance that you might need to rehab.
This was the case for me. I rehabed my issues to strengthen the injured area enough to perform the lift at lower weights and basically start over. Now, I'm regaining my strength and mobility with the barbell deadlift and other compound movements. I appreciate his insight
@@thekalamazookid4481yes its a great tool
You realize that using a trap bar with a more vertical back angle is harder on your knees, right?
By eliminating trap bar deadlifts from my routine, can I safely assume I'll achieve a similarly impressive physique as the one Rippetoe is rocking?
Winnie the Pooh body...
@@brianjones7660
Steal that honey.
@@neil12011 lol
G4p fluffer
You speak as if ignorance is a virtue. Ripp is one of the best strength coaches in the world. Read his book and actually do hard things the correct way.
that gym is stacked with curl racks, love it!
Hilarious comment
Ha
Nice
"Why Rippetoe Is Completely Useless With The Trap Bar". Alternate, more appropriate title
I feel as if I just watched an old man yell at a cloud.
Haha good one
I LOL’d
Made me laugh
Practically, yes, that's what this video is.
Yeah this dude is a dogmatic geezer.
The most dangerous thing about a trap bar is having a fat guy appear from nowhere and start pushing it around at the top of your lift
😂
Damn 😂
🤣🤣🤣
He's not appearing out of no where though.
@@dababy824 get a load of mister literal, here ☝️
It doesn’t damage your back nearly enough. Get rid of it!
Barbells don’t damage your back either if you use them correctly
@@mackenziebenedict8403 would you agree that proper deadlift form is a technique that requires practice?
@@jakeledg yes
@@mackenziebenedict8403 well I can tell you that the army doesn’t teach that and if they did, they’d screw it up. The trap bar is a dummy solution for a bunch of soldiers who won’t do their homework.
@@jakeledg okay. But that doesn’t change any of what Rippetoe is saying.
Barbell vs machine argument: having to control free weight is good
Anti Trap bar argument: having to control free weight is bad
Had a good giggle over this one
In his defence, he said it's bad when loading the trap bar with a lot of weight, which can result in you falling backwards and hurting yourself.
That's NOT going to happen on a machine, so your point is simply WRONG.
Weight needs to be close to body or else dumb-asses get injured. The problem with the Trap bar is that it ''only'' contacts thé body at thé hands, making it more instable than a conventional barbell! Free don't mean free, baby! ;)
@@alejandroperez5368 1. That's why you start with 135 and don't fall over, then go to 140 and still don't fall over, then go to 145 and don't fall over and so forth.
2. Rip says himself that you can fall down on a heavy conventional deadlift, too. That's why they have spotters for deadlifts nowadays
@@Huffman_Tree yes you can fall that's the point so there is no need to magnify the risk
Went to the local small airport, no one had even heard of a sagital plane let alone seen one.
Here you go. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittal_plane
How about vaginal????
The hoodlum I have spent time in the vaginal plane, great ride can be a some turbulence.
And for interest a section that runs parallel to the sagittal plane is called a parasagittal plane. All this helps with training?
I laughed out loud. I'm in bed. Hope i didnt wake my wife
I have the solutions to all the problems created in this video.
1. Don't let someone push your trap bar during the lift to avoid movement in the sagital plane.
2. Don't rock your hips forwards and backwards with your body while peforming the lift to avoid movement in the sagital plane.
3. Don't supinate and pronate your wrists or move your arms while performing the lift to avoid movement in the sagital plane.
4. Avoid Mark Rippetoe while doing Trap Bar deadlifts to avoid movement in the sagital plane.
This made me think. If a movement has so many ways of being "unsafe" doesn't it indirectly prove that it requires proper technique to perform?
1. the movement is bound to happen with heavier lifts, even experienced lifters dont perform every lift correctly
2. isn't it the basis of the movement pattern though? rocking/moving your hips back and forwards?
3. just an extra precaution but my no.1 proves it wont matter with heavier weights
4. Sure this should work
I disagree rippletoe on this being unsafe, but I do agree about the repeatability of the exercise and its very little use in any training format. Does this mean I dont like trap bar? NO, does this mean it does not help you ? no?
But the point of any equipment in the gym in my opinion is that you should be able to train with it with high repeatibility.
You can get better at lots of stuffs with trap bar deadlift, but I have only found literally two uses for it and it being a plyometric jump with weight, and a farmers walk, any other stuffs with it requires a lot of expertise and lots of "feel dependent" movement to perform it to an equal ability. There's ways you feel like you are doing it like you did last time, but no, due to the equipment allowing me to freely move my hands, hips anywhere I want, at any angle I want and less clue, it can affect the way I execute the deadlift with same repeatibility.
Farmers walk , it does not matter where I put my hands and during jumps, I am focusing on jumping with the weight without worrying my back angle and hand positions, So I find it very useful in those
But perhaps I have heard people telling me how useful it is for those who have back pains and stuffs,
@@ankitpradhan4183 If your argument was correct for the trap bar deadlift then it would also apply to squats which are also open to motion in the sagittal plane.
As with squats, motion in the sagittal plane does not mean that form is unrepeatable - it simply means that form needs to be learned until it becomes repeatable.
@@ozzy6162 yes but bar is attached to your body, its not floating around to put more stress
You can’t lift heavier weights in an unstable environment. Try lifting on a boat, your body wont let you fire all of your muscle units.
@@gsquared2394 bad comparison, your feet are on solid ground when using a trap bar. Literally no science supports the trap bar as being inferior to the barbell conventional deadlift
I have that weird feeling that rip dont like the trap bar
And vegens.
Rip doesn't like anything that isn't his own program
Meat Bag false
Φώτιος Τσακωμάκας
How?
No way dude
I feel that a farmer walk with a heavy loaded trap bar builds grip strength, shoulder stability, back, leg and hip strength; all useful for building strength in deadlift and squat. Is this really so useless?
It's not bad but farmers handles are better, because they can tilt independently of each other.
He's not talking about farmer walks here.
Love it for farmers walk. Can lift way more weight without it banging against my legs.
Doing squats and deadlifts have those benefits too. So why not just do those if that's your goal?
Terrence Taylor
I do farmers walk because I heard they work traps better than shrugs. I still work in shrugs every now and then but farmers walk is good for a change.
Have had both knees replaced and the trap bar has been a tremendous assist to be able to continue weight training vs a barbell deadlift
How dare you
Bro I’m giving up on squats and deadlift I had an injury in both knees at least I can use the leg curl machines and press but you are right the hex is easy
@@ixcoatl0013 what about hip thrusts and glute adducteurs and abductors?
@@mmartinisgreat I KICK ASS ON THOSE TWO non stop And slow :) well synchronized I like those two machines they are fun it really sucks I injury my two knees I was rope skipping single legged with a ten pound vest and that’s how I got injured really bad
@@ixcoatl0013 Good luck with your injuries, if you can tolerate without pain also try backwards pulling a sled or heavy object even at my worst it didn’t give me pain & helped strengthen the legs
Why is instability noted as a positive when comparing free-weights to machines (recruiting stabilizing muscles), but not when comparing trap bar to barbell?
flyzipper haha checkmate rip you crank!
I think it has to do with instability that we can physically control ie : barbell and dumbbell.
And then what the trap bar asks of us in terms of stability ie: trying to control 200kgs from a squat position with the arms, but not allowing the lats or shoulder to apply their strength and stability as you would in the deadlift.
@@major253kannon don't tell Dan John (the "grab some heavy dumbbells and go for a walk" guy) 😉
Because machines have a set range of motion which does not apply to everyone, where as free weights can be adapted to your anthropometry and mobility. I don't know about instability being seen as positive tho, especially by rip
Because Rip said so and asking questions ist verboten!
I always feel like I'm in trouble when I watch Rip's videos.
It's like when your dad picks you up from school and he's mad at you
That's what happens when you live life like a coward
🤣😂
@@bakermcq lmao
@@absolutelyfookinnobody2843 no you are what happens when no one teaches you how to have some fun and be a little lighthearted
Somebody send this to Eric Bugenhagen, he'll go nuts :D
This dude is the most dogmatic person I have ever seen. I love the Hex bar at my gym (no high handles, so you are at the same depth, and its a 70lb bar) It is so much more comfortable, and natural feeling. Pull 500 off the ground is pulling 500 off the ground. Do it anyway you want that will keep you healthy, and happy.
Pulling 500 is easier with a trap bar than a barbell tho
Day Man. No , but why you believe this?
Jordbær idk man maybe I just suck at deadlifting. I can pull 500 with a trap bar but not with a barbell.
Day Man
Ok, then put 550 on there
It probably feels easier because your shoulder, and hands are in a far more comfortable position. I only pull about 5 percent more with a trap bar than I do a conventional.
When you look up "dogmatic" in the dictionary there is just a picture of a Mark Rippetoe
exact word i used
I thought it was when you train your dog so well that when you whistle they come to you immediately.
why are you so mad on behalf of rip when i dont doubt that rip would agree that he is dogmatic, and his reasoning would be something along the lines of "im dogmatic because i've figured out what actually works." he wasnt even insulting him
@@TheMonk111 if I had to guess I'd say gasbaroni is projecting his relationship issues with his dad onto rip and as a result got a little defensive.
@@gasbaroni Bruh, you're making that shit up. I checked, and it's some funny looking dude named gasbaroni.
This video has convinced me, the trap bar is single best tool in the entire gym. I’ve learned from long experience whatever Rip says to do I should do the opposite.
"This useless piece of junk is called..." is also how Rip named his children.
I don't think he has one. But nice joke
Man i watched that part like 5 times in a row and i can't stop laughing...i mean with the way he says and stands with zero fucks given.... totally chill badass
lmao...omg
@@ANILTV82 ...you got daddy issues
@@shawndayvis6169 good to know
This reminds me of “who needs a computer at home?”
I can't do deadlifts or rack pulls because of my back, meanwhile I was able to use the trapbar deadlift with no issues
Then u r fked?
Exactly.......thank you.....
Dislocated my shoulder. Ever sonce, no more deadlift. The rotation of my hands on the bar put too much strain on the rotator cuff of my shoulder. Trap bad allows me to keep the shoulder in the neutral position and still perform a modified dead lift.
Your not deadlifting properly then. The deadlift will strengthen you back not cause issues.
@@OllieMartinGamer my form was fine, still pulled my back.
Why does this guy keep popping up on my feed? Studies have shown the trap bar produces more force, can be used more for greater force. Also may be better for those with lower back problems.
Exactly. You can build power through the legs, and hips as you would during a deadlift without the worry about smoking your back. Plus the hand position and bar path helps you train more lats and traps. So if power and speed from the ground is the goal then this is GREAT. His whole argument is shit form and inconsistencies in movement makes it dangerous 😂
I've been wondering the same thing. Anyone with questions regarding the trap bar should look at the article Greg nuckols has. Actual science and not "it looks different than a conveniental deadlift so it's bad!!!!"
@@tylerweibel8049 "put him against some boxer or athlete same age and weight", um, what strength coach wouldn't that argument apply to lol? yeah ofc boxers will beat up ppl who lift barbells up for a living, what does that prove
Daniel Prendergast check your @ bro
Bimarsha Guragain you’re not doing a good job of proving anything here.
I'm in my late 50s and built size and strength from regular barbell deadlifts/ shrugs however since I started using the trap bar years ago I feel I have made more progress.
That's simply because you've added a new exercise to your routine
@@drabnail777 it could also be better for his leverages
It’s easier on your spine and the bar doesn’t get caught in your things so you can work more smoothly
@@jonathanmejia5878 keep it simple dude it’s just probably so much better for his spine , the weight isn’t in front of him but at his side , he’s pretty so that could make change
feelings are important
As a man who grew up lifting things off each side, and lugging about huge blocks of wood in work, and even pulling a cultivator in the garden when the tractor broke down, I will say this: this guy wouldn't last a day on a farm without having an aneurism.
"Hips can be in any position with a trap bar" is a feature, not a bug.
You can also squat or deadlift with all kinds of hip and knee angles.
Not if you do a 1RM. Or even a 3RM lift
You must be soft in the head. Heavy things move in straight lines which means there are human shapes that have to be made.
exactly, he's so biased it hurts
@@GoalOrientedLifting high bar, low bar, narrow stance, wide stance, high bar wide stance, low bar narrow stance, barefoot, elevated heel, ridiculously elevated heel, elevated toe, front squats...
Imagine being part of Rip's cult in 2021
This argument is based on an imaginary problem - that while the trap bar is lifted it will suddenly start to oscillate front to back and even side to side. If you lift it correctly - straight up - this will not happen. If some small amount of oscillation does manage to creep its way into the lift, your muscles will be forced to stabilize this movement. This is why loaded carries are useful - they train the body to stabilize a load while moving. This type of strength is extremely useful in real life. Last August I helped my mother move. I didn't pick up a box and then immediately set it down. I picked up a box, walked with it, sometimes up a set of stairs, then put it down. I am not necessarily saying that the trap bar should be a complete substitute for the barbell deadlift, but to say that is is useless is just Rip being his typical dogmatic self which many of us have learned to ignore.
Well said Mike
Agreed. Just like any heavy deadlift the weight is not going to come off the ground unless it is over the mid foot, so you shouldn't see any pendulum effect. So what is going to introduce the oscillation? There may be some room to argue that locking out with the bar against you could help minimize the likelihood of over-extending the lower back, but even that shouldn't really be a problem. I just don't see this as much more than a Chicken Little, "The sky is falling!" issue. I think he stated his real problem with it when he got the question about trap bars at the opening of one of the SS gyms. It doesn't require any real coaching like it does to safely perform a heavy barbell DL.
Definitely. I could see the insecurity in his eyes-practically an angsty teen.
The whole point of the bar is to lift straight up anyway, as it was designed for greater stability (your center is better). So anyone lifting a trap bar any other way, honestly deserves to get injured. You are supposed to lift STRAIGHT UP AND FEET PLANTED CORRECTLY UNDERNEATH YOU!
@@TrustNJesusChrist Exactly. What makes the trap bar user friendly is that the weight is perfectly balanced through your center of gravity because with your arms at your sides they are perfectly centered through your body. This is not possible with a bar. A lifter would have to do something very strange to get the trap bar oscillating.
I've never felt like swinging the trap bar was a problem I had to deal with.
Me neither.
I just started doing trap bar deadlifts 4 weeks ago and I never has an issue with the bar swinging (and I'm a beginner btw)
Someone should train at Rip's gym and only trap bar deadlift, just to bug the shit out of him
Make it a weekly series and id binge it
I'll do it lol
You won't find a trap bar at Rips gym, so beat it with your 'just to bother someone' bs attitude. Your name says it all anyway
@@southpawje get bent bud lol you obviously cant take a joke
A trap bar with the plates facing outward while wearing giant loud headphones, a pair of Vibram Five Fingers, some booty shorts and complaining that the gym isn't clean.
I’ve seen a lot more guys get hurt deadlifting with a barbell than with a trap bar.
Ya you have never seen anyone get hurt either way lol
that doesn't really mean much does it, the only thing that says is they under overloaded or their technique is wrong. That's not the issue with the barbell deadlift. It exactly enforces the fact that the trap bar is less effective in training the area's it is supposed to
I haven't seen anyone make any significant strength or muscular size gain with a trap bar.
Caracalla Severus guess you don’t watch the NFL.
@@philipmcauley PEDs are great when strength and conditioning coaches make players do gimmick based exercises.
As a tall guy with a back problem history, trap bar dls + reverse hypers = gold
Jesus Christ
Completely disagree. You’re still picking up a weight from the floor. Yes it changes the position of the back and the location of your grip, but to call it useless and “so dissimilar” from the deadlift is wrong. We trained novice athletes on this and when they transitioned to a barbell, their conventional deadlift increased.
Iron Adversity wouldn’t novice athletes increase performance rather quickly with proper training due to being a novice? Don’t novice lifters progress initially faster than advanced lifters? May be a factor.
Richard Mann trap bar deadlifts are far less technical and allow newer lifters to pick up weight off the floor without so much gamble on their form killing their lumbars. My point is that the trap bar is not useless.
Its called the novice effect. Trap bar does not recruit the posterior chain like an actual deadlift.
Load of rubbish, I have used a trap bar for around 15 years, they are great
Imagine if you had used a barbell for 15 years instead
@@steelslither provide the marginal scientific data to support your position
@@steelslither how do you know he didnt do barbell deadlifts too?
@@steelslither lol
Freddy Ruiz he would potentially have bulging disc and back issues just for some arbitrary attainment of back strength? Sorry but the detriments just appear to outweigh the benefits for me at large.
“Jacked quads are better than a jacked up back”- Greg Nuckols
“Get off my lawn”- Rip
😂😂😂
I quit believing everything Rip had to say when he gave a chili recipe and said it’s ok to leave out overnight because the heat sterilizes it.
Oddly specific
Lol. Good thing I dont come here for cooking advice I guess.
Bahahaha!
Well, it does sterilize everything. If it was cooked you don't have to worry about e coli and you are not going to develop botulism overnight - or at all since you have salt and acidity in chili.
Isn't Rip the guy who proposed "GOMAD"?
This guy is the definition of I want it my way or no way at all. Trap bar has it's pros and cons but so does the barbell deadlift.
He is white New balance shoes or no shoes at all.
One is better for getting stronger, so yeah, he prefers that one.
@@jonmichaelburgess2654 HAHAHA gold
@@markus64s By his own definition, strength is how much weight you pull. Trap bar allows you to pull more weight. It's also considered better for power production and athletic performance in general.
@@kurtisbaxter6422 Stronger where? Not your lower back, abs or forearms. I could leg press more than I can squat, but strengthening muscles in isolation is not efficient. A barbell is more consistent with his philosophy.
I maxed my barbell deadlift, then easily matched it with a trap bar. As an older lifter, I also find the trap bar to be more comfortable lift.
I understand the movement in the sagittal plane, however, having to pull on the bar in order to demonstrate the instability lessens the effectiveness of the argument. Just show the sway under normal circumstances. “Let me show you the instability by applying a force not included in the movement” is a silly experiment.
Well shit, as long as you're comfortable.
But what if you were outside and a 50 mph gust of wind came just as you locked out??? injury city man! lol
Lol you “easily” matched something that was your max. What does that say about your max 😂😂
@@PlaciSantos Next to nothing. If you max at weight X on incline bench then you're likely to max at more than X on flat bench no matter how strong or weak you are. The same can be applied for barbell and trap bar deadlift.
"I maxed my barbell deadlift"
No you didn't.
“In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few”
The trap bar is the only way I can still deadlift and reap the benefits. I’ve had four structural knee surgeries for a fractured kneecap I suffered years ago. I simply can’t barbell deadlift due to that. It’s not form based, it’s structural. The bar unloaded just lightly rolling up my knee by rep 3 or 4 has the ability to cause intense swelling and pain. This keeps me out of the gym and makes it impossible for me to ever properly load the exercise for any benefit. Nothing I can do about that. Trap bar allows me to keep doing a variation of my favourite exercise. Would I prefer to do barbell? Obviously. But life isn’t that simple or cut and dry. This is a super disappointing video to see from someone I have much respect for. If someone was in a wheelchair would you say “seated shoulder press is trash. Standing overhead press is the ONLY way.”
Come on Mark....
Agreed. You can still get good strength gains from trap bar lifts, and if you need to focus on a particular body part that is being neglected, you can always target them seperately. There is more than one way to skin a cat and become strong. The main concern will always be safety and well being. The old meatheads can get off it. Besides, a person who truly is into fitness/bodybuilding/powerlifting etc.. would not shun a popular exercise equipment to begin with. Variety is the spice of life as well.
Nice quote
I think an SSC would do you well. I have never touched my knee with a deadlift. The bar is to be placed 1 inch off the shins and then slides of the thighs. It does not slide up the shins, kneecaps and thighs
I just started kettlebells and they rock....
I would suggest you do seated deadlifts/hacksquats. They are a good move for anyone to use but very obvious for your situation. The trap bar is mainly there if you have to have neutral shoulders for some reason not for leg issues. I think rip also has some guys in wheelchairs who do exactly this.
Oh, you want sagittal stability that bad? You know what provides it? The smith machine.
Clever
Love it. Exactly right :D
the trap bar IS the smith machine of deadlifts. Requires little or no thought and technique when compared to an Olympic bar. Do you think the industry's best deadlifters spend all of their time practising on trap bars?
spursblood1 how is there formidable skill at play when practicing barbell deadlifts?
@@spursblood1 who was ever talking about being good at barbell deadlifts? Barbells are obviously more specific/beneficial than trap bars for that.
If I follow your training protocol will I end up with a gut and a bad attitude?
Oh man, I respect Mark, but this video is silly. I've strictly trapbar deadlifted for 2 years now and went from 475lbs to 675lbs in that time. It's much safer than conventional/sumo, allows more overload of the upperback/traps/quads/everything. It will make you strong. If anyone wants to read an informative article about the TB Deadlift and why it is great, see greg knuckols in depth article: www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/. Not everyone is confined to powerlifting.
If you train deadlifts to strengthen your upperback/traps/quads you are missing the point. The trap bar deadlift is not a good substitution of the conventional, exactly because the conventional deadlift stresses the back and torso muscles (which is the fucking point of the exercise) more while TBD DOESNT. You may get stronger in that exercise, as with all other exercises, but that doens't say much about your back and your hamstrings. If you stop conventional deadlifting, you stop effectively strengthening these muscle groups. In a strength-based program that's extremely problematic.
Seriously, its funny how so many people simply don't listen to the point Mark makes and simply spew their dogshit all over the place.
Harris do some heavy trap bar deadlifts and tell me your back and torso muscles haven’t been worked lol
@@harris2898 no offense, but what you said makes zero sense. I know it makes all of those areas stronger. I literally just pulled 5 plates conventional after strictly trapbar deadlifting for a long time. My squat is 450. I hipthrust 600lbs for reps. I weigh 195lbs.Read the article. Greg knuckols knows his shit. Saying you can't strengthen those areas by doing alternative exercises is dogmatic thinking. If you did good mornings, hipthrusts, and squats you would pull big numbers without even deadlifting.
@@trevjcandy3632 seriously. It's a great exercise and heavily underated. Him saying it doesn't work those areas is just rediculous.
@@coopaloop727272 I never said TBDs dont work your back. What I said is TBDs dont work your back as much as a conventional deadlift would. That's the argument Rip is using and that is the one that makes sense to me.
You might be a very strong dude. Your personal experience is not evidence for or against the argument Mark is presenting. The reason why im being a spastic, replying to internet comments, is because you criticize something without any proper argumentation against it. You lifting heavy weights says NOTHING about the effectiveness of your training. You need to introduce a lot more parameters (such as time spend in the gym daily, years spent training, dieting habits and so on) in order to make a point here, and you clearly do none o fthat. After 10 years of lifting, I might as well lift '5 plates' conventional, with dogshit form and dogshit training method.
no science just plain ole " get off my lawn" talk
Zha roon Basic anatomy supports the trap bar...
Zha roon do you dumbass?
Zha roon Studies show that sumo deadlifts are closer to a squatting movement than a trap bar...
basic anatomy being a safer position for the back, neutral grip to place biceps in a safer position etc.
Anatomically if you want to hinge you do good mornings, stiff legged or romanian deadlifts, even damn kettlebell swings.
Hurr durr straight bar is the best is dogmatic and stupid.
Zha roon Yes, it allows you, but that doesn’t mean you have to
@@BenBenjaBenjamin And a conventional deadlift is a half squat with the bar hanging in the hands instead of being on your back.
"That's a nice argument Rip. Why don't you back it up with a source?"
Rip: "My source is that I made it the fuck up!"
How do you feel about trap bar snatches?
monkeyboy441 It’s ok as long as you split snatch instead of squat snatch. Also don’t use weights just band tension.
I think it is better for squats and power cleans.
Primal Man Don't forget trap bar hammer curls, triceps extension, and shoulder shrugs. An important piece of gym equipment.
@@MrOpticBlade picturing someone doing this im dieing laughing 🤣💀
How do you feel about trapping a snatch in a bar???
“Old man yells at trapbar”
A conventional deadlift becomes too difficult to do with a double overhand grip before too long and you will have to start using an over/under grip. For me, this feels unbalanced, where my externally rotated arm in the underhand grip has my bicep tearing in no time. Personally, I feel I get better results from alternating Romanian Deadlifts and Pendlay Rows for volume every other workout, and Rack Pulls and Trap Bar Deads on alternating heavy days. There's less overuse because the back is getting slightly different stimulus. The trap bar is fine. It's a useful tool for when conventional gets stale, or when your anthropomatry doesn't favor conventional deads.
You're probably gay
choose an exercise that is less technically demanding and has a lower risk of injury when teaching a incredibly large number of athletes (soldiers).
I know Rip is a legend, but he is as likeable as Isis.
Mark Judd you apologize to ISIS, mister.
@@moroteseoinage nah fuck ISIS. apologize to rip
I got put on to him by a mate and couldnt believe what a nasty boorish bore he was. Taking thousands of dollars off people while making them look stupid for asking a question. His way or no way??
He's only a legend because of timing. His methods are so damned simple, someone would have come up with it on their own anyway.
I switched to an open trap bar earlier this year, pulled heavier with it than I could with a barbell, due to a better starting position (it negated my belly and bad proportions for deadlifting)
Greg Nuckols article about the hinge squat continuum destroys the whole “it’s not a deadlift, it’s a squat” argument, so I’ll just move on from that. The most reasonable point Rip brings up is the vertical arm grip, which I can definitely agree is optimal for pulling maximal weight. In fact, I know some trap bar manufacturers (like Kabuki Strength) have adjustable handle widths, which I think goes a long way towards remedying that issue. Otherwise though, I don’t really consider the TBDL all that worrisome. Use it as an accessory if you do powerlifting or strongman (like Alan Thrall), or even as a primary lift if you’re not interested in competition. I fail to see the harm done in that approach.
ATimelessParadox thanks for the post I hadn’t come across the Nuckles article.
Based on the article you’re right that the TBDL is closer to a hinge than a squat. But the barbell deadlift is still more of a hinge than the TBDL. So Rippetoe is correct that the TBDL doesn’t train the back as much as the barbell DL. Although he did overstate it when he said the TBDL was more of a squat.
From the article, “For the conventional deadlift... The ratio of peak hip moment to peak knee moment was 3.68:1.”
And
“For the trap bar deadlift... The ratio of peak hip moment to peak knee moment was 1.78:1.”
That’s a big difference. In my view, since you should also be squatting, the traditional DL will give you a more well-rounded training routine. But if I had the time and needed more volume I might add the TBDL.
Nuckels does have some things to say about back injuries, etc, but I think his arguments are very weak here. For any weightlifting routine you should be progressively loading more stress. Maybe more weight, maybe more volume, depending on your goals. Injuries can happen when you try too much. But this is true of knee injuries too, not just the back.
And I don’t think rounding the back has the magical property of causing injuries. It’s part of the back’s normal range of motion. Rounding the back during a traditional DL is bad because you’re not strengthening the erector spinae muscles - not because it’ll cause injury.
Here’s the link to the Nuckols article www.strongerbyscience.com/trap-bar-deadlifts/
@@CaptainTechnical The bigger point is that trap bar simply gives you more degrees of freedom. You can make your trap bar DL relatively quad-dominant, or you can make it as hip-dominant as an RDL (or anything in between). It's not inherently more quad-dominant. Also, for training purposes, I'd say that absolute hip moments (which are very similar) matter considerably more than the ratio of knee to hip moments.
@@CaptainTechnical Another important take away is not just the hip:knee torque ratio, but also how the actual forces compare in absolute terms. The hip torque is actually very similar between the two, the reason for the different ratio is that the trap bar deadlift has much higher knee torque (though still not anywhere near as high as in a squat). So trap bar deadlifts don't train the hips any less, they just train the knees more.
And something else that's interesting is how the hip:knee torque ratio is lower on the sumo deadlift than the trap bar deadlift, and when you compare the squat/deadlift variations in a hip:knee torque ratio continuum you see that the trap bar deadlift is by far the closest to the barbell deadlift, with the sumo being the "least deadlift like" (and most "squat like") of the deadlift variations. And for a given % of maximum load, the sumo does in fact produce lower hip torque and lower posterior chain activation, unlike the trap bar.
So all the negative things people usually have to say about the trap bar deadlift aren't just wrong (or at the very least grossly exagerated), but they apply far, far more so to the sumo deadlift. Which most of these people would indeed consider a valid and "real" deadlift. Proving that the issue people have with the trap bar deadlift has really nothing to do with it's effectiveness as a strength exercise, or the muscles it recruits, but simply because it's not a straight barbell, which they seem to think has some magical proprieties that make every conceivable movement that the human body is capable of better by using it.
It's just bar racism.
This persuaded me to buy a trap bar: it felt like I was listening to someone forcefully explaining why, say, guns would never hold a candle to bows and arrows.
How do you like it? I'm sure you've noticed that nobody tries to push you over at lock out and you can flip it over if you want less RoM 😳😳
Lmao not quite.
Idiot.
Your analogy is defective. The trap bar is like a bee bee gun or air gun. The Olympic bar is like a proper magnum. You don't see professional powerlifters or weight lifters turn up at an official competition to lift a trap bar, do you?
@@spursblood1 buddy like 95% of people who lift are not competing in powerlifting/weightlifting competitions and could not give 2 fucks if their lift gets them 3 white lights or what their raw wilks is or how much they can squat jerk. Most people are lifting for fun and health, not for numbers. Get off your high horse.
I actually understand exactly what he's talking about. He makes perfect sense, but only for a certain set of individuals, training for certain goals. I dint recommend a trap bar for new lifters , powerlifters , or other small groups of people who need to be locked into a specific position while training, but for the rest of people, its absolutely fine.
I always recommend a rotating routine, switching between bars on a week to week basis. There is no reason not to use both. These bars are tools, use them, and have a greater range of increasing strength and movement. Only when training for a specific goal should be cutting things out and concentrate on a lift like the deadlift. The deadlift is very important, training it is a staple of my training, but how i train it isnt locked in, unless im competing soon.
Train however your most comfortable. Its always uo to the individual doing the work, im sorry the trap bar is far from trash, i love it personally. Im getting older, and it makes training a bit easier on my joints and adds more longevity to my training. If i had a show, id train with sololy and Olympic bar, but that would be the only reason, and im done with that for the most part.
Lift as you will, brother. If the hex bar adds years to your training and movements , do it.
Rip has nice theoretical arguments as always, but I don't think any of this has been observed in practice.
Literally no one has ever been injured by the trap bar going back and forth. I don't think he's ever actually used one.
What nice theoretical arguments? I didn't here any.
@@datguy4104 If anyone was ever injured from the trap bar, they deserve the injury. AGAIN, the trap bar's selling point IS its stability. Your center of gravity is not pulled like the deadlifts with bars. You are supposed to lift straight up with your feet nice and planted underneath you. How could you fuck this up?! Its not that hard to control.
Huffman_Tree He literally wrote the book. I think he would know.
Lee Everett I’ve been hurt by a trap bar, and I deserved it. Lol I can attest to this
This is the definition of dogmatic
sorry the truth is too dogmatic
@@dors.sc1 It's not truth it's an opinion.
It's dogmatic because the trap bar is a viable option for some people, in some situations. For example, to reiterate Alan Thralls point in a recent video of his, the trap bar is a great tool if you want a less taxing deadlift variation using the "high handles" whilst still getting decent work in. Implementing this every month or so, for me at least, has worked wonders for my overall ability to recover.
@@hugomcdermott2118 just deadlift with less load, is there any argument for the trap bar
Yeah.. there is. DOD isn’t going to spend time how to properly deadlift, and the trap bar is more natural for people. We’re talking about training marines and grunts, not oly and powerlifters. Rip’s opinions on military fitness are always redundant.
I used a trap bar with the raised grips, because I have an L4-L5-S1 full fusion, and I can't do squats with heavy weight. I'm incredibly sore in the correct places a day later, so it's clearly hitting the right areas. It seems a lot safer than having the weight way out in front of your legs, putting your lumbar spine in an awkward position.
So it's a physical therapy tool. Not saying it doesn't have it's place, but the whole "awkward position" of your lumbar that you elude to is precisely the point of the deadlift.
@@adammeade2300 if you have perfect form, and you've always had perfect form, it's fine to deadlift. No one can maintain perfect form when lifting for a PR. I used to be an Olympic lifter and powerlifter, so I've seen this first hand hundreds of times, if not more. If you have a spinal injury, or if your family has a history of lumbar spinal injuries, they're not a good idea. For me, they're out of the question, as are heavy squats. I suppose it depends if you're doing them to build strength with good form, or you're doing them for a competition. Competitive weightlifters are typically pretty busted up in their 50s, if not sooner. This kind of reminds me of the CrossFit debate. I'm old enough to remember when it first became a craze. Everyone was begging me to start doing it with them, almost like a cult. I'm sure they have fun, and there's a sense of camaraderie. I imagine they make a lot of friends. But, I don't know a single CrossFit practitioner who hasn't been injured at least once. I was an ex collegiate wrestler. I came out of undergrad with a bunch of overuse injuries already. I didn't need any more.
@@DDDYLN You’ve certainly got more experience with the lift than I do. I’m 42 and have done a lot of training over my lifetime, but I come from a martial arts/boxing background. It’s only recently that I began to squat, bench, ohp, deadlift. I’ve grown to love the deadlift but, to your point, I’m just training to get stronger. PR’s seem like a young man’s game and a great way to injure yourself. I can’t say I have “perfect” form, but my background in martial arts certainly instilled in me the importance of proper and efficient mechanics, so I always warm up well and would rather lift less weight with correct form than go for a record and achieve nothing but accolades. I’m a small guy, like very close to Bruce Lee’s size and build, so I’ve no illusions of becoming some hulking mass of man. Also, I remember well that it was Bruce Lee’s simple neglect of a regular warm up routine on “good mornings” that resulted in his chronic and horrible back pain. I’m also an MRI technician and I scan janky backs everyday, so I do appreciate the potential dangers. Just seems like an earnest focus on sound physiology and the avoidance of ego lifting can make this a profitable and sustainable movement.
@@adammeade2300 100%. I was 23 when I was training for a powerlifting meet. I never even got to compete, because I injured my lumbar spine. I'm 47. Even if I could go back and tell my 23 year old self not to do it, I know he wouldn't listen! I was built like a hulk at that point in my life. I didn't think I could be hurt. I was very wrong. I had been captain and MVP of my collegiate wrestling team. I came out of undergraduate, and went to graduate school, with a lot of unaddressed injuries from wrestling. I tried to ignore them. However, they didn't ignore me. And those overuse injuries, combined with my ego, were what led to injuring my lumbar spine.
Bro, it fucking sucks get over it pussy
"Dont lift weights" - Rip 2020
"Only kiss boys, not men." - Andy Dick 2021
😂
I saw the UA-cam video of Rip answering an older lifter's question about the trap bar. Two weeks later, this video feels like Rip doubling down on silliness.
1. Talking about the sagittal plane and grabbing another person's trap bar at its high point in order to make it swing reminds me of watching a fast talking infomercial huckster do their thing. Nobody grabs another person's bar at its high point. And small movements of a bar at its high point (e.g. the press) requires the body to work on stabilization which doesn't strike me as being a bad thing. But I'd also add, I started using the trap bar 6 months ago and have been lifting over the 405 lbs Rip mentioned in this video, and I have never noticed any swing of the bar in any of my lifts and certainly never felt at risk or any after effects from lifting heavy with a trap bar.
2. I've always assumed that the spotters behind deadlifters at events are because people have passed out after deadlifting to the maximum of their capacity - and having felt briefly light headed after some heavy deadlift pulls, I still think that's the reason.
3. I've never met a person who has injured themselves using a trap bar for heavy lifts. I've met plenty of people who have injured themselves deadlifting with a conventional bar.
4. Greg Nuckols has a really interesting article "Trap Bar Deadlifts are Underrated" comparing the conventional and trap bar deadlifts. He beings with: "I’m a bit ashamed to admit that I used to be a barbell purist. I’m not sure how the idea got lodged in my head, but I spent quite a few years working with the assumption that barbell exercises were always (or almost always) superior to their biomechanically similar, non-barbell counterparts. It took me way too long to realize and accept that trap bar deadlifts are a superior option for most people in most contexts than the straight bar deadlift. Both research and my own self-experimentation helped me see the light." Clearly Rip's not there yet.
"Talking about the sagittal plane and grabbing another person's trap bar at its high point in order to make it swing reminds me of watching a fast talking infomercial huckster do their thing." This is great line - and accurate.
My best deadlift is 630. I tried to deadlift about 350 on a trap bar and had to drop it because it started to swing just a little bit. You probably wouldn't have been able to see that swinging motion, so Rip exaggerated it to make his point.
@@sleepingtube how the hell is that even possible? I can trap bar dead lift 375, and barbell 385. And I do more barbell than trap bar
@@sleepingtube sorry, but that sounds weird. I trap bar for variations and out pull conventional all the time with zero swings. This sounds like bollocks to me...
Gareth, I saw that video too and if RIP replied to my reasonable question the way he did that guy he would have had issues. Utterly rude and disrespectful to a paying customer asking a teacher a fair question. Money back moment.
I'm getting a trap bar because I want to increase my verticle jump. The motion of lifting with a trap bar is more accurate to actually jumping than the motion of lifting a deadlift. You're inertia is being pulled forward with deadlifting, but with trap bars, it mimics a free-weight jump. I don't see how you think it isn't good for strength training though?
You can just be stronger and increase your vertical jump, i.e squat/deadlift. The implication that you have to do some sort of weighted jump exercise to increase your vertical jump that way is retarded (aka functional training).
@@wreagfe you have to practice explosive training to increase your vertical. You also have to practice explosive training with weights using proper form.
One question: if the trap bar is so dangerous, where are all the bodies?
I know plenty of ppl including myself who pulled something on deadlifts with a bar. How many ppl do I know hurt themselves with a trap bar? Zero. Not saying it never happens. But this is retarded to say the trap bar deadlift is dangerous
Yep, as far as i have heard there are absolutely no statistics to back Rip's claim up, more likely even the opposite.
@@mattzilla331 it tears your biceps easier
Just wait. The Army is implementing the new test now. Although you wouldn't know it since it still hasn't figured out how to issue enough equipment to actually run a test...
Up your butt, Mike.
I don't know, I changed from deadlifts to trap bar deadlifts and improved my lower back, rehabbed injuries etc... , I got more results with less injuries etc..
If proper form is used when doing a deadlift you will not injure yourself. Don't blame the lift.
@@mustang3fourty7
Exactly bitches blame the lift not themselves.
Starting strength dudes are so dogmatic with their “lord and savior” Mark rippetoe, it think Rip sometimes is very black and white on certain things, sometimes you use the equipment thats necessary to accomplish a task. I’ve found using trap bar as an excellent training tool and variation to the conventional.
I did the same thing, except I just dropped the weight back down to 135 and slowly built back up while focusing on getting the form down good. Now if I hurt my back at work I can legit just go deadlift and be good after.
Well if your getting fucked up from deadlifts then your doing them wrong and have a shitty deadlift.
Barbell deadlifts injured my back and trap bar deadlifts are fixing it.
It's very unstable when heavy when using he low handles. The high handles make it very stable but limit the range of motion. A good way to gain all benefits is to use the high handles while standing on plates to lengthen the range of motion back. It makes the ROM almost identical to using the low handles but gives much more stability.
For most people the limited ROM isn't even a concern. That's only if you're intent on competing, so only about 1 in 10,000 need to care about depth of the movement.
Trap Bars should be one of the first things the average person buys for a home gym.
I can picture him petting a barbell telling it it's still superior
🤣🤣🤣
I bought a trap bar just a few days ago in spite of this video. It arrives on Thursday.
Hope you’ve been using it. I love my trap bar as an athlete
"this is a useless piece of equipment, so useless I have one which I'm making this video with"
ya only a hack would want to be familiar with something before forming an opinion on it
@@AcceleratingUniverse So Rip, who's had a career in strength training for decades, only tried a trap bar deadllift in 2020? Or maybe it's more likely that he's had it for a very long time?
Also, plot twist: he didn't really throw it away, he took it back inside after filming.
@@BigUriel lol
This actually motivated me to buy a trap bar. Thanks!
The fact that hips can be in any position and you can still load extremely heavy is exactly why this is useful
Various leverages with unlimited load potential creates a great environment for injury rehabilitation with some serious ass progressive overload
That is a incredible opportunity for rehabilitation or poor mobility clients a hell of a tool.
Which is exactly why the original designer made it.
@@andrewkitchenuk The original designer made it to swindle morons out of their money.
Is mark having an episode of early onset irrelevance?
Konstantin Konstantinovs was one of the greatest raw deadlifters and predominantly trained trap bar.
Yes, but was he the greatest lifter because of trap bar lifts, or despite it?
@@TwistyThreeFifty "Whoops! Accidentally became the best!"
@@nathanridgeway1826 lol You must be American. The American Dream doesn't apply in sport. Some people are born better, and no matter how how hard you train, or how little they train, will not change that.
@@TwistyThreeFifty "I barely even trained at all! What even is a deadlift? Yet, I am the best! How convenient!"
@@nathanridgeway1826 'Murica! Aawww yeaahhh!
My lower back is trashed and the hex bar helps me deadlift and squat without exacerbating the problem.
Is it for everyone? Probably not.
Does it help me? Definitely yes
If you were to pick up 2 heavy suit cases, would you pick them up in front of you like a dead lift.. or naturally side by side...
Trap bar aint for strength of back, most people know that, its a safe way to lift and strengthen legs.
Then do squats.
You lift them side by side because they are TWO, so you cannot lift them otherwise. Thats like creating a problem and then selling a solution for it. If its one heavy suitcase, like 300lbs, i dont think many people would try to lift it sideways, or try to split it in half in order to lift half the weight in each side... Try it.
@@Aris19Q Except you're more likely to have to lift two things that are 150 lbs. each than one "suitcase" that weighs 300 lbs. Rip just makes this stuff up as he goes.
@@MikeXCSkier no, you are more likely to have to lift many things that are heavy, so you pick them up one by one rather than two at a time..
I agree. It’s easier to teach 100 recruits the trap bar lift than a back squat and deadlift. Also with a squat you need a cage or rack. It more closely mimics carrying a couple of heavy ammo cases or bags of gear.
Why the trap bar is useless in the starting strength program limitations! The are many more uses for it than deadlifts
Yep. Great for carrys and over head press if you dont have a log
@@ShayanGivehchian exactly
@@ShayanGivehchian You can do bent over rows with it as well.
Lee Everett - I actually just bought one with the intention to do rows with it. I feel like it is perfect for bent over rows.
@@obits3 It is. 😀 It actually gives me more of a challenge compared to the barbell.
very good points. thank you for offering your thoughts on the trap bar.
The conventional deadlift and trap bar deadlift are non-specific to military tasks. Why does it matter? They are soldiers, not powerlifters. I think both are perfectly fine for non-specific resistance training. I personally prefer the conventional deadlift, but it does not matter for their purposes.
The conventional deadlift is only specific to powerlifters yes but it is still the best and most efficent way to get anyone strong period.
You make a good point, nothing matters if nothing matters.
@Southside Kettlebell Why? In the military you carry things at your side just like with a trap bar. It really doesn't matter which deadlift you use. As Eli said, soldiers are not powerlifters. Unless you're a powerlifter there is not need to pick the conventional deadlift over a trap bar.
charlie don't deadlift or surf
We don't deadlift because it's in powerlifting.
Deadlift is in powerlifting *because* we do it.
If trab bar was the best exercise, powerlifting would've adopted it instead.
I have a 600lb raw deadlift that I trained almost entirely with the trap bar. Never had a single injury. How is it useless?
Is that with using the lower handles?
You mean 600lbs with a straight bar doing only trapbar deadlift leading up to it? If yes you should document it, that sounds interesting.
Prove it
Complete and utter bullshit. A trap bar deadlift is not a "raw deadlift."
It's not useless at all especially if you're not competing.
I was taught how to deadlift with a conventional barbell in the Army and I can tell you with absolute certainty that I don’t think the standard Soldier has any business in pretending how to teach a conventional barbell deadlift.
The overhead press is also unstable at the top of the movement.
Farmers walks and shrugs with the trap bar are hugely better than with a barbell. Also, farmers walks are very unstable.
Yea but you’re stabling 135lbs of weight above your body. Tell me one exercise that strengthens your serratus anterior like OHP.
Trap bar deadlifts are still deadlifts, the weight starts dead on the floor
It's still a pointless lift with not enough benefits. Which means it's DEAD to me. So yeah I guess you could say it's a "DEAD-lift"
@@resellworld nonsense. I will take Nuckoll's thoughtful and evidence based reasoning on the matter over RIP's dogma and continue to do BOTH for variation.
@@fabioq6916 WHOOOOOSH!!
You must be fun at parties...
It was a joke dumbass.
@@resellworld yep.
@@fabioq6916 word.
I also want to add that the swing is not a thing. I dead lift my sets with 425 on the trap bar. I do the same on the barbell. Neither one moves or swings during the movement. If you’re swinging around 400 pounds then you probably don’t need to worry about the sagittal plane. Swinging only happens if you’re using really lightweight.
It’s really a shame many young lifters listen to this fella like it’s gospel. What about the crazy idea of trap bar deadlifting AND straight bar deadlifting?!? Crazy idea, I know.
As one fitness professional to another, people are much more likely to curl their back with a straight bar deadlift. I like the trap bar.
I feel like trap bar deadlifts also help me generate more power in my legs which benefits me as a rugby player
I can only imagine how many prospective kids would get hurt doing straight bar deadlifts on a PT test. I'm willing to bet the majority of these kids have never deadlifted and you really don't want to jump straight to maxing (since you're going for a high score) on a somewhat technical lift. So many people new to deadlifting put their feet in the wrong spot, let their hips sink like it's a squat and round their back to accommodate the sunken hips and having to lean forward at the start so they can balance.
Time to order a TRAP
Bar
It's an excellent bar for a hybrid exercise of a squat and deadlift. It's amazing for supplemental exercise
Adding these allowed me to add more volume while easing the load on my lower back
I pull over 600
Oh come on Rip. You're being way to hard on the trap bar.
Well... Trap bar is fine... But honestly, it's overhyped
@Southside Kettlebell, it depends. If you have shoulder issues (for whatever reason), low bar squats are impractical. So you either have to high bar squat or use a trapbar deadlift in addition with a barbell deadlift. The versatility of the trapbar (ability to switch back angles) is not a bad thing and it's easier to learn. And my FTR, my best lift of all the big barbell lifts is the barbell deadlif, so I'm not someone who hates the barbell.
@@dudeman209 don't forget the safety squat bar.
100%. Whats wrong with using it on other days when you dont squat or deadlift in your program. Better yet, experimenting with it to see how your body reacts? Silly barbell dogma
@@phamawa nothing is wrong with it I use both. The trap bar is more unstable for sure. He's probably just seen a bunch of idiots in his gym getting nearly pretzeled so many times he just had to make a video lol. I have a respectable deadlift for an average guy and feel they can both be used properly and provide results. Research trap bar for running. It has its uses.
I'm a collegiate strength and conditioning coach with quite a few years of experience, and my default deadlift is the trap bar deadlift, precisely because it keeps the athlete in a more verticle torso position, which is very similar to a basic athletic position, which is almost univerally common to most sports. You see this position across a mutitude of different sports, from a DB in football, to tennis, to baseball, to wrestling.
If I were to just write deadlift on my athlete's chart, they would automatically reach for the trap bar. I'd have to specify conventional deadlift in order for them to use a barbell.
He’s trippin. Trap bar saved my life 🙌🏼
Rip is just about in tears over this LOL. The trap bar is an awesome peice of gear, if you have to get an entire army training then of course trap bar will be easier to teach them.
And you don't need your soldiers constantly out due to back injuries or rolled shoulders. Rip can't think three dimensional... he only sees competitive lifting avenues. When you've got to grab to cans or boxes of extremely heavy ammo to one point or another in battle. You are NOT going to pick them up from the front and run with them. There is such a thing as specific type training.
It's a phenomenal piece of equipment.
Plus it's much easier to properly execute a trap bar deadlift than a barbell one when someone is exhausted. When would that person be exhausted? Maybe in the middle of a PT test where the soldier has just run 2 miles, done sled drags, pushups, sprints, etc.
As mentioned above, he's approaching this from the perspective of a powerlifting coach and not from someone familiar with the needs of the military.
@@whenhen no, he's approaching it from a follow-me-cultishly-and-buy-my-books standpoint. You don't have to read far to find out he has no credibility among actual powerlifters.
The trap bar is like stress free deadlifting. Rip is being overly dramatic .
Hey Mark, The added instability IS A GOOD THING! Functional strength? Think carrying a couple heavy suitcases!
Very true. All lifts like squats, OHP, and rows are inherently unstable as well. We provide the stability, hence increase in overall strength.
Stay tuned for Mark's upcoming video: "Why Carrying a Couple of Heavy Suitcases is Completely Useless with Mark Rippetoe". In it, Mark states that when carrying suitcases, they are unrestricted in the sagittal plane. The suit cases can swing when you pick them up and most importantly, they can swing while you're carrying them.
The trap bar is a useful compromise for folks who lack mobility and or who have low back issues that would otherwise make the deadlift difficult and painful to perform. Lighten up Rip.
That's exactly why I use it.
I'm stretching like a madman trying to improve my mobility. But, in the meantime, it's trap bar city baby.
Here’s a news flash. The earth doesn’t revolve around D1 football players