I heavily respect the fact that they don’t want to interact with ravenous fans since it’s become very clear as of late how toxic the gaming community at large is towards developers, but part of me wishes team cherry took the Toby Fox approach and wrote tiny newsletters that gave us an idea of where they were at with development without actually showing too much from the game.
Yeah, that's completely true. Also, they probably told Leth not to say anything, and I respect that just because of the same thing. Some people are so toxic, if Leth responded there would be hundreds insulting him, and he has nothing to do with the delays.
Idk about this take tbh. The reason the fans are so pissed is because of team cherry’s communication style. A few updates every year would really go a long way, just so that people know that the game is actually gonna come out eventually and will be good. Obviously there are ‘ravenous’ fans that take it too far, but every fan base has those, and they should be shamed
@@Cucardo This still redounds to Team Cherry's fault though, because that environment was created by their silence. Granted those people will always exist and trolls are ever present. But they have definitely exacerbated those problems.
@@gammashift 24:05 I know you mean well and you're being extremely polite, but the expectation of an update whenever contact is made is extremely intimidating to smaller creators.
"Today is November 3rd, 2024 This is Araraura, your host for today, bringing you your daily Silksong news. There has been no news to report for Silksong today. This has been your daily news for Silksong for today, November 3rd, 2024..."
Silksong'll come out some day, and it'll probably be great. Yes there's the creator's trap of never ending up releasing anything. But For my money, as a creative, I'm very happy to see people being able to work on their things in the way that they want. Team Cherry has been granted that opportunity, and that's fantastic. Despite the sometimes unfair levels of pressure some people put on them, knowingly or not, I hope they're having fun. I'm excited to see what will come of it, whenever it releases. I have enough games to play in the meantime.
In my opinion, they should only release Silksong once their studio is on the verge of collapsing. They should keep improving, expanding, and iterating on the game so that whenever it finally does come out, it is as good as it can possibly be.
This is basically how I feel about it, they can take whatever time they need, they already made ONE genre defining game, let these mfs cook however long they want.
yeah, i have always been very worried that when Silksong releases, people will be mad because its not perfect or its not exactly the game they were expecting.
It's been said many times, but it rings true: tough as it is to admit, the odds of Silksong actually living up to people's expectations are pretty low. There's also the potential issues of there having been so much iteration on Hollow Knight's core ideas that the game will feel very different, both in terms of combat and structure of the game. Some people will like the change, but I'm very confident that at least a small portion of the fanbase, the part that's been playing with the same relatively simple movement and mechanics religiously for 7 years now, will not. I could be wrong, I hope I am, but history and human nature don't paint a 100% optimistic picture. But don't get me wrong, I'm confident the game will be excellent-I'm simply saying that people ought to meter their expections and expect a game that likely will not be identical (or even very similar) to their experience with Hollow Knight.
If you've seen gameplay you'll know it's not identical to hollow knight, it's a new game. When they're purposely not telling anyone what to expect the players can choose where to set those expectations. Who's fault is it then to expect more and then be disappointed? I think it's kinda pointless to care about that.
So basically, stop talking about Silksong or even forget about the game. Just wait for however many years it'll take for them to release it. I'm sure the moment they say a release date, we will all play through Hollow Knight one more time and start the journey of Silksong.
So true, I haven't thought about this game in ages then suddenly this video pops up in my recommended. The optimal scenario that I'm hoping for is that Silksong releases and I don't even know about it until a month later when some video about the game gets recommended to me
Put it this way… if they can’t handle it now, no matter how well silksong does… the team is toast after this. There’s no way they’re signing up for more of this if they’re this bad t handling the pressure.
I really, really, *really* appreciate the kindness in this discussion -- as someone who has just recently jumped into game development and seen how *painfully* slow it can be, it is so horrible to see how unknown creators go from being dark horse successes to being attacked everywhere. I caught up on some video game kickstarters I backed a few years ago and all the comments that are upset things aren't delivered on time, even with incredible communication, is so, so demoralizing. I appreciate that, even without communication, you're out here giving people hope and able to make reasonable conclusions that don't involve death threats or hate mail. Thank you.
28:35 just want to note that they couldn't retire after HK because Hornet was part of the kickstarter campaign. They are literally still on the kickstarter arc which is crazy to think about.
yeah but they couldve just added hornet as a playable character or having a tiny side quest as hornet and retire but they decided to make an entirely new game instead
@@diegoalanis6283 Yep, that's all true but I wanted to clarify that the end of HK didn't mean the end of their obligations like the video made it sound
@@Tubeytime Technically, they're not obliged to produce anything with playable Hornet; they just have to make a good faith effort, and spend the Kickstarter funds on legitimate project expenses (which includes feeding the programmers). Considering that they spent through the Kickstarter funds and then some even before Hollow Knight itself released, they have satisfied their Kickstarter obligations. Of course, there's nothing stopping them from doing more - and no reason they shouldn't take their legally non-binding commitment seriously - but them doing so is because they want to, not because they're required to.
@@rmsgrey You're wrong. "Technically" they MUST meet their exact promises for every tier goal reached. Failure to do so is a crime called fraud. In fact people have made the original kickstarter item, but failed to deliver on bonus goals, and were then hit by a lawsuit that they lost. Kickstarter isn't a donation site. It's a public funding site with rules and anyone using it is subject to the law. It is a legally binding agreement. They DID have to make a playable Hornet or they would be at risk of a lawsuit that held solid ground against them.
I'm not angry at the devs or anything, because I've done software engineering. I understand scope creep very well, it's why one of the hardest parts of development isn't the actual coding - it's figuring out how much you can do within a given time frame. Team Cherry being an indie studio means they thankfully don't have to answer to big investors, but it also means they aren't required to set a deadline for themselves either the way other software developers would have. It means if they decide on a whim "Hey, why don't we add this to the game;" they can just continue to put off the release. I am almost certain that there is some form of the game that is effectively "complete" that they could release, but their standards are so high they don't want to. I'm certain the final release will be amazing, but the biggest issue is the total lack of communication. They don't need to engage with fans about when it'll be done - just show them it's being worked on.
I disagree, and as the video said- they can give an estimate, but then overshoot it, and have even more anger directed at them. The more you engage with fans, the more they feel entitled to engage back. I'm sure Team Cherry have received all sorts of nasty harassment and death threats because that's how people allow themselves to act online, especially to public figures. No communication = less anxiety & harassment. I'm glad they're keeping quiet for now. Fans are not entitled to communication.
@@machinegirl0324:05 should explain why they don't. Like... _you_ might not expect that, but of the countless numbers of fans at least several hundred _will._ Edit: Also, they have Leth give confirmation that they're working on it. The video even mentions that.
@@ApexGale They promised a second playable character, not a huge sequel. They couldn't make hornet playable because she's too tall. So they could've used Zote, or another character. A sequel is way more than the backer promise
@@Abby-ug4xc Right...but they *didn't.* That's my point - the "Hornet campaign" is what was promised to the backers, and they didn't get that or anything else. Team Cherry has even said all backers will receive Silksong for free, by their own terms they have indicated that this is the equivalent of the Hornet campaign that backers were supposed to get.
I think the anticipation for Silksong got to a point where it's impossible for Team Cherry to not feel the pressure to stop adding things and concentrate on releasing. Remember, they planned to release during the first half of 2023. I would not be surprised if they were in Bug-Fixing mode since then. I imagine they are way more wary when it comes to bugs (hehe) affecting the reception of the game this time around compared to when they made Hollow Knight and were unknown.
@@le_gus001i mean that’s about how long that should take especially considering the giant size of this game and the small amount of people working on it
Another big factor is that since consoles (and Nintendo especially) make it extremely hard for indie games to maintain parity with patches due to the certification process, and since the Switch version is so important, they have to iron out as many bugs as possible before releasing it. Significantly more than if they weren't simultaneously releasing it
Guys, Hollow Knight was crowdfunded on a budget of $15,000. Hollow Knight has since sold 3 million copies at prices varying from 15-25 dollars. Lowballing it, they made $45,000,000, which is a bit more than fifteen grand. They have the budget to do literally everything they couldn't afford in Hollow Knight, but that's going to take a while.
I am going to choose my words more carefully going forward when assessing indie-developed projects, too often I end up talking about them with the same critical tone I use for the big-budget super-studios with comparatively infinite resources. Also I know all too well the pain of waiting on The Winds of Winter, haha. I'm resigned to the delay, I no longer expect it to release during GRRM's lifetime, and if it does, well, it'll be like Christmas morning, whatever day it is!
@@insertjokehere212 It's been like that forever, if he couldn't have finished during quarantine where he was locked inside his home, I doubt he's ever going to finish it, especially with his reaction to HotD, I'm pretty sure he's just given up at this point
Getting mad and accusing the devs of different things is beyond stupid but the general dissatisfaction with their communication is understandable. They released trailers, gameplay, had a demo, appeared on gamepass and advertising. Set so much up like they were ready to release soon then just . . . Stopped The issue isn’t the silence, but the massive wave of hype they created only to drop off the face of the earth
What do you even want from them. They've said it over and over again, they're working on it. They clearly don't want to give more screenshots or footage as to not spoil the game, so there's not much they can really give us besides reassuring us that the project is still alive. At this point the hollow knight community would only be satisfied if they just give a release date, which clearly that's not gonna happen right now.
@penultimania4295 They literally have? Did you forget all of what they said in 2023, and also they've literally said that THIS YEAR. I don't think you've looked hard enough. They said something like 2 months ago at a convention and EVERYBODY ignored it.
@@mrholeio3060 Yeah I wonder why they ignored it. Maybe they should do an official fcking update on Steam or any of the official channels? Bunch of scrubs.
Not even a game like this can remain a passion project for this long. It will sooner or later turn into something negative in your life I think. That's my 2 cents but I might be totally wrong. Maybe they took some years off at some point, who knows? I wish them well too.
So many devs have scope creep issues. I once heard that a good idea when planning and budgeting is to just add 50%. If you need it, it's there, but you need to control your ambition.
unlike undertale, team cherry is not making any attempts to communicate, which is what most people are pretty upset with since- to them- they got a trailer and a demo of silksong back in early 2019. Come feb 2025, it'll be officially 6 years since they advertised their game and sold merch for a game they haven't released. in june 2022, xbox announced a rough release date for the game- claiming it'd release 'within a year'. (latest assumed was june 2023.) only to have Leth make the infamous in may 2023 ('hey gang...') post, stating that it's not coming out yet on the previously assumed release date, and gave us a vague 'you'll know when it'll come out when you start seeing more updates'. It has now been a year and nearing five months since the closest thing we ever had to a 'release date', and still complete radio silence. and team cherry haven't made a noise on their media feeds since 2019. If they bothered to just say something maybe once every few months, maybe fans wouldn't be so rabid or upset. What did they expect announcing a game nearly SIX YEARS in advanced, and then not say anything in between the wait?
Please don't be disingenuous. If you really meant this (and actually watched this video), then you'd realize/acknowledge that we get updates at least a few times a year
You know i just made a comment that boils down to "c'mon guys, why do you care so much, your love for the franchise is not going to lessen if you stop stressing about not getting coms" but this one is pretty funny, i endorse this behavior if we're doing it to apple
I'm sick of game studios pumping out sequels right after getting success with a game. Them actually taking rhe time they need to make it exactly how they like is refreshjng as fuck. Sad that it I can't play it yet, but if we want a game as good and most likely wildly better than hollow knight, we need to let them cook.
Yes this! Like if they gave us reasons for why they’re taking so long it’d still suck but I could at least understand. This little jig to avoid telling us anything at all is so not it. For all we know they stopped working on the game last year and the whole games been reset, it’s unlikely but we don’t KNOW
@@ibrahimaw3893People are also saying why silent is a provlem. This YT video is also just an opinion/speculation on WHY they're silent. It's not words spoken direcrly from TC, idk why you guy keep parroting this "finish the video they explain why silent!!" lmao.
It is funny to spam Silksong at games showcases, but I have never understood people being actually angry over it's development time. We live in a time where there are so many amazing games coming out every year, big and small. So many that I probably will never be able to play all the ones I want to before I die. Now I am not 13 with all the time in world so it's easy for me to say that, but even so.
Because it's been nearly a decade and a game of HK quality and length does not take this long. Not to mention they hyped everyone up then just went silent for years.
@@mentholnewport Sounds like you didn't watch the video, because it explained very well why it and other similar games take so long. There is zero legitimate reason to be angry with them. They're humans working on a passion project and don't owe fans anything lol
Yeah exactly. There are so many amazing games, even lots of great metdroidvanias released in the past few years. Far too many to play in a lifetime. Tunic is a great one surprisingly few people know about
we r not agry because of the time the game is taking, we r mad because there is 0 communication with the fan base. It s silence radio, 0 informations for years
@@25andromede Wdym zero information. Their PR guy gives occasional updates But there are other ppl saying zero would be better than just a little bit, so no one is going to be universally happy until tit's released
Video was well paced, well edited and informative. The voice commentary was clear and articulate. Very high quality for someone with only a few thousand subscribers man your underrated.
wow this video is very insightful, i hope more hollow knight fans can see this vid, it definetly changed the way i looked at this situation. Thanks for this great look into other situations, and how this seems like nothing particularly new for the indie gaming industry. Have a great rest of your day/night!
I think an interesting similar situation is the release of Geometry Dash 2.2. It took almost 7 years to come out with just an update, and it's been almost a year now, but the developer (Robtop Games) also spoke about all the pressure when the update kept taking longer and longer.
by the time he dropped the update game died out and i had no interest in playing it. cus i grew up 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ also he only dropped one level. kinda underwhelming
the update actually had loads of content, and the game did not die out lol. the community is literally bigger than ever. the update included a bunch of new platformer levels (an entire new way to play the game), a new gamemode, and the changes to the editor were huge
The initial fanbases of relatively unknown studios are usually positive people who see value even in unfinished things and give constructive feedback to see things grow. Once you grow too large you also get the attention of those who didn't see the process, who want everything to be perfect and available right now. I knew the making of Hollow Knight wasn't a cakewalk but I didn't know it was this rough. It is completely understandable that they take their sweet time, even if I don't like it. I only heard about the game years after release and I don't know if would have bothered back in 2017. It is now my favourite game, I have learned a lot about the light and dark sides of game development, and I wish I had the skills, discipline and courage to undertake such a project or even a smaller one.
Well not quite that bad. We're not getting Winds of Winter, ever. Even the writer has more more or less admitted to doing no work in for more then a couple years at this point, as well as beliving he might not finish it himself. Silksong will likely be done at some point unless team cherry just keeps expanding the scope until the studio goes under.
I honestly think the best thing you can do as an indie dev to keep your community happy is having a healthy modding community. I understand there are definitely restrictions to this (console), but i still think its a very important part of a games community.
As a writer, scopecreep is a very powerful phenomenon. At first, my fantasy story was very bare-boned, and I had trouble coming up with ideas for the plot and setting. Now it's over 900 pages and continuing to grow in complexity and detail, and I desperately need to cut out a lot of content.
Another thing to note is that a small studio has a team dynamic which makes it hard to fit more people to fill roles that the established team doesn't fill, and if you engage with the community, that is a whole set of roles. As a contrast, consider something like Hades 2. I'm on the discord and playing the early access, and it definitely does serve their process to use early access and engage with the fans more consistently than Team Cherry did, but despite not being a AAA studio, Supergiant Games still has more people just wrangling the community than team cherry has period, and they need that despite having a development cycle which is MUCH better than TC's for the purpose of keeping impatient fans satisfied.
The reason they're taking so long is because they've actually been reworking 'silksong' into 'Return of the Primal Aspids - the Primal Aspid-ening'. An insider source told me that every single character had to be redesigned into a primal aspid, including the player character.
Bold of you to assume you're ever going to get to play Silksong. If you ask me, I think Silksong is some sort of elaborate social experiment and there is no real game 😂
23:03 - Other fans, maybe. Personally, I gave up long ago. There's no way George will live long enough to finish the story. Best case scenario, we get the Winds of Winter and that's it. ASoIaF as a whole, though, will _never_ be finished. George lacks the time, motivation, energy, etc. to do it. Unfortunately, the shitty TV show ending is the only ending the story will ever have, and I made peace with that several years ago.
something i wonder about the development of silksong is if it was being developed in unity like hollow knight. Because that would be another thing to put into account; the possible delay of changing engines due to unity falling from grace during it's development. So its not hard to think they would have to port the whole game over to a new engine like gadot or make their own from scratch which spawns a whole new gaggle of challenges or with a custom engine more opportunities to expand on. Changing an engine mid development is a KILLER for even AAA company titles so if team cherry had to switch off of unity you can imagine the kind of stress that can put on development.
By the time of the unity drama they were definitely already way too far into development to switch engines lol, like 4 years for an indie studio has put them too far in to just change and learn a brand new engine
Okay, and if that were the case, why wouldn't they take literally fifteen, yes, fifteen seconds to type "Due to recent events regarding Unity, we are switching engines. This will take a lot of work"? They literally have hired a social media person and all he does is make random troll remarks in the discord once a year.
@xelith6157 because they didn’t swap from unity? it literally says on their website they are still using unity and the website was updated after everything that happened with unity lol.
The more time goes by, the more I feel like frequent and informative communication is one of the single most effective things a game developer can do to market their game. (Or even professions far beyond game development, really.) Unfortunately, it's also one of the hardest.
Even though Hollow Knight is one of my favorite games of all time, I don't mind waiting for Silksong for a couple reasons. 1) I am completely willing to wait for the amount of time needed to fix most bugs/glitches or errors in the game to make sure it has a fantastic launch 2) The creative process is slow and takes a long time to not just come up with ideas, but to then actually execute on them, creating the drawings and music, making the gameplay feel fresh with that idea, piecing that together with your whole game, and making it flow for story. Its a lot of work and Team Cherry is one of the few dev teams I have seen that actually has so much passion for what they are doing. For the interviews they have done and Matt has done, you can tell they love the work they are doing, and they want this game to be amazing. The Indie's Gamers Podcast is great because hearing his passion for TC working on their project is awesome. My only major complaint that I think most people have is the silence, however not them just being silent, but rather preparing us for an amazing launch with game pass and showing us a cool demo back in 2019 and really hyping our expectations, only to say they had to delay to keep working on the game (which is completely fine) but then not updating the community about anything. Very few updates around holidays in their discord or one off Tweets. They have chosen to be incredibly silent after preparing us for many years of hype to then kinda just back out quietly. A lot of people say the amount of pressure they are under must be tremendous, and it absolutely is, but part of that is their own doing with the direction they took to advertise the game and give us a release window with xbox. However I do know that working under that pressure can be very difficult, or maybe they even feel none and are truly just in the zone pouring ideas out of their heads. They were infact out of money right when Hk released. They had an okay launch, got amazing marketing, and continued to update and expand the game to make it one of the best indie games to date. Now they have the time and money, which means they get to truly put their strengths to the test and deliver a beautiful project, and I cant wait to be ready to buy it day one, no matter how long it takes. Much love HK community and TC
Who gives a shit? The game will come out when it comes out... Why do you need to be "updated"? It's nobody's business what they are doing... They seem like private people and probably don't like interacting with a bunch of dumbass people aka "fans"... I don't blame them...
My only problem is that nobody forced them to give the initial release date they said. The fact that it's as late as it is without even a second trailer, the least they could do is say something.
@ imagine being so loyal to a studio that doesn’t know or care about you, that the slightest bit of criticism from a random fan gets you upset enough to reply like an asshole.
Wdym, we got a showcase and a trailer what else do you want? And btw that trailer didn't have a release date but then afterwards Microsoft said "everything you'll see today is coming out within the next 12 months" and on a tweet thay clarified they meant it about EVERYTHING, but even then, disregard everything I've said, god forbid they do whatever they want with their game that you haven't yet payed for
@@matiaspereyra9392 I’ll never understand why there are people who get so upset at the most lightweight criticism. All I said was I wish they would give an update on the game that was supposed to come out 3 years ago calm the fuck down bro.
I think the silent approach is kind of ridiculous. As a fighting game player it’s just really unhealthy to leave your community in the dark for so long like this. Even Rune Scape does podcasts with developers letting people know how development is going and what features they might add. It’s not about having to deal with rabid or toxic fans but just to keep in touch with the community that supports you.
Who cares.... They don't owe fans anything... Maybe they don't feel like going on podcasts or talking to people... It's a fucking video game... When it comes out it comes out... Why do we need to know "they're still working on it" isn't that already a given?
@thomaslove6494 I respect the dedication it takes to make games, and I am not trying to downplay team Cherry's hardwork... but to say they owe fans nothing is kind of a bad take. Without the support and belief from fans through Kickstarter, Hollow Knight may never have reached the same popularity it eventually did. And Silksong was originally attached to that same Kickstarter project. No one is asking for 100% of the details on the development. We all just want more transparency and communication rather than being left in the dark for years.
@@rapta_gg8059 the Kickstarter is over and everything has been delivered... Give me a break... They promised a video game and delivered one of the greatest Metroidvanias of all time. They owe nothing to anyone... They're making a second game anyway... When the game comes out millions and millions of people will buy it... Nuff said they talk when and if they want to.... They dropped like 5 FREE DLCs for hollow Knight as well and only charged 15 bucks for the game... Trying to hold 70k from a Kickstarter over their heads is actually unbelievable....
Basically constraints lead to creativity that actually accomplishes something. Infinite budgets/time/ideas poison the creative process and lead nowhere.
I think the best thing we as a community can do is not think about it too much. Let it sink into the back of our conciousness as a cool thing that will eventually come out but that se shouldn’t get too excited about. Thats what ive been doing. I believe that they will eventually pull the trigger and release it, but i’m happy with it being a pleasant surprise when it eventually happens.
I agree, and then when it comes out and people complain it's not SO GOOD that it gives them luscious locks and abs and a million dollars in their bank account, I'm going to clown on them so hard
One thing to add as well. The manga series bleach written by Tite Kubo is in a similar place the ice and fire series. People wanted for the bleach series to continue and pressed and pressed Tite much that during the end of the manga, he didn’t really care to much and just wanted it to be over with. Now, over a decade after the manga finished, we’ve only gotten about 5 different light novels and a single manga chapter that act as a continuation onto the story
I get not wanting to interact with rabid fans of the game, but updating the blog with at least "we are still developing, here are 3 screenshots of something development related" once a year would diminish this fear that the game will never be released. There is a bad behavior on the fans part, but the years of silence from team Cherry just serve to feed the spiraling behavior.
Silksong will come out when Team Cherry are satisfied with what has been made. It will be at minimum just Hollow Knight but a bit larger and with a new playable character and that is already good enough. There are other wonderful games, metroidvania or otherwise, that can be played in the meantime.
Good good and fkcing good. This is exactly what they should be doing, working on the project until they feel confident and have it perfected. It's why hollow knight was such an amazing game, they are not going to release in an unfinished state and God forbid they get rushed by a bunch of impatient children like every other dev studio into releasing something they weren't comfortable with but the masses wanted it. Take your time, this game is going to be incredible and I'm more then willing to wait.
ConcernedApe, Stardew Volley developer, work on two game, solo dev, able to frequently writte update and keeping in touch with the community. But TC hired a PR person, couldn't do it lol.
Wait what ? You cannot tell me this studio has a PR person. Bro, give me their job. That is the most free, unearned paycheck ever concieved by mankind.
Sorry, love that game too, but that whole soundtrack that he was playing was still from hollow knight, gimme a minute to find the exact theme Yup, it’s just city of tears ost 👍
I understand the message of the video, it's just hard to be patient when you're in the dark for so long. I think Ari and William have a right to tinker away at their project, but I also think Leth has a responsibility to show *what* is going on to any extent. I'm not asking for them to put together another demo or trailer, or even release a music track. Just bother them for a screenshot. A doodle, a piece of concept art. That's it. Having concrete proof that something is happening behind the curtain is more than enough for people like myself.
The thing that will make people raise eyebrows is not being quiet or not giving updates. But when you’ve had several trailers (some sponsored by Xbox) and that was 5 years ago it makes people concerned on progress or if they announced way too early. This feature creep could result in a fantastic sequel or something that never truly comes to fruition.
Super important takeaways you gave, and it’s horrible to hear how dehumanized authors and devs have felt thanks to their fanbase. If you have the urge to yell at a creator for a sequel, shut up and go touch grass
15:41 if you want different information no offense but I’ve literally heard the entire auto biography of team cherry a billion times i don’t wana hear it again 😭
No matter how good the game will be once it releases, there's no excuse for Team Cherry not keeping their fans updated on the progress of the game, and also not releasing it in a reasonable timeframe and updating it with new features afterwards.
I feel like the recently-released UFO 50 is one of these types of projects that was just released. Literally 50 entire games that have been worked on for around a decade, worked on by ~5 people (most of whom worked on Spelunky, which assumedly helped cover finances). When these sorts of games come out, they typically are huge hits
Isn't Team like main 3 people? ( or at least from what I have seen and somewhat mentioned in your video, I might check the credits again cuz I have forgotten since then ) Like I would imagine that if they are trying to make a game that has an expectation to stand next to it's previous title, and that seems pretty challenging, especially with the level of excitement people have.. I don't follow hollow knight much, I played it and it was really good! For me the next game gets out when it's gets out. Although I can understand that the wait for the next game is long and grueling for some people, I mean i have seen some stuff while browsing stuff around the game.
My entire issue is that they released a trailer for what *looked* like a mostly ready game, not a "we are massively increasing the scope of our work so its gonna take 5 years and also this is the last significant update you'll get for 5 years" Like, they needed to either not release that early trailer and just go stealth mode with occasional "Still alive, not done yet" updates OR release that trailer and give regular updates about the state of development. They went with the worst option of generating a ton of hype with what LOOKED like a feature complete trailer and THEN going radio silent for 5 years. And no, the occasional "we're still working on it" updates do not count as communication, they are the absolute minimum to let us know the company still exists, but they tell us *nothing* about the game. Team Cherry built a hype train, the crashed it into a mountain. THAT is the problem.
You can easily just respond to your fans and say how the development is going doesn't sound very draining to me. You don't even have to look at feedback. @dr.banana47
@dr.banana47yeah sending a single tweet every few months is so draining. I Mena you have to pick up your phone, then unlock it, the click on the app icon my god at that point you might as well just go radio silent....wait
I don't think any reasonable person is complaining about the wait but purely about 5 years of dead silence. People have to stop being so afraid of others seeing them as spoiled and thus denying their worth. The community, through support, promoting and ESPECIALLY financial backing, has brought Team Cherry to the privileged position they currently hold. Getting a single tweet once a year to let us know that work is getting along, and that they haven't forgotten us is not too much to ask for. It's the bare minimum. I'm not mad or stressed out or anything but I do know that people have every right to complain about being ignored.
14:21 Small mistake here, producers aren't the ones seeking funding. In a structure like Larian that you are using as your visual, it's the role of the Business Development department who is generally composed of business oriented people. Producers are the people that organise teams and create schedules to make sure everyone has a task and can contribute optimally to the game's progress. In very small structures, it's the role of the CEO to seek funding. Sure, some might even have producers do it, but that is not the standard :) (Source: I work at a publisher haha)
You really can't level any criticism at Team Cherry at all when you understand this is only their second game, they've only beem developing games for a decade, and they are a tiny team, whereas even multibillion dollar companies like nintendo, with huge teams and resources, and over FOUR DECADES of experience in the industry, cannot competently manage a project or predict how long it will take with any degree of accuracy at all. I mean look at Tears of the Kingdom. That was a franchise they've been making games in since the 80s, and they're ALWAYS delayed REPEATEDLY, and yet every new game, they think they know what the release date will be, amd they're wrong. Again and again. That was a game where they basically already went through the exact same development cycle with BotW, and they STILL could not figure out what they were doing or how long it would take. That was a game where they already had the entire game engine pre-existing from the last game, almost the entire map pre-existing from the last game, and the majority of the assets pre-existing from the last game. And it was fuck up after fuck up, delay after delay. Again, a multi billion dollar company, four decades in the industry, and a game they had already made once, in a series they've been making and remaking since the 80s. No clue what they're doing. To wonder why Team Cherry is taking this long or saying nothing is frankly laughable.
Saying you can't criticize people because this is their second game is such a delusional take. Deltarune is Toby's second game (third if you count Earthbound: Halloween hack) and he is doing an outstanding job on communicating with the fans. He has also struggled with feature-creep on chapters 3-4 of Deltarune, but he acknowledges that in his newsletters, of which he releases every few months with EXTENSIVE coverage on how game development is going. To list another example, Hakita (lead dev of ULTRAKILL) is currently working on a enemy/level rework, and he has been doing so for a year. The community isn't mad at him, however, because he keeps in contact with fans via discord and youtube. (sorry if this is a long comment, I originally just wanted to write the first sentence but I kept going lol)
Nothing can excuse them from not giving any updates. They would have been better off just saying they have huge scope creep and the game is delayed till 2030, then the current silence.
Welp, why devs are afraid to talk with le community about "when release"? - because more times than not community devolves into a mass of screeching apes when confronted with the reality that things take time, besides just the well known fear about commitment anyone faces: you have a deadline and you are get more and more shidded the closer to it you are
I 1000000% agree with all of this because Team Cherry did a miraculous job with Hollow Knight. If I had even a single wish, it would be to destroy all material wealth. My reasoning comes from observing others suffering from decisions that barely allow them to survive another day in this cruel world. I would love to assist Team Cherry, but that isn't possible due to my current situation. I just hope the community can be patient for however long they need to.
All material wealth? That does include housing you realise. Also, we would end up back in the days of trading if all the receipts became unusable. There would be little in the way of specialised job roles or likely making games at all in the first place, because everyone would be focusing on survival. There is also no way to make this a smooth process economically if you apply this in the present. In otherwords, money may not be the most comprehensive system by itself; but it is way better then what we had. Especially if ones country has universal healthcare.
@@lunyxappocalypse7071 😓lemme specify what I meant: I would destroy the need for money in all forms, but I didn’t mean full destruction of material wealth. I just wanna remove money from society so people realize how much freedom they can have when doing things they love without having to worry about the limitations of money.
Hollow Knight is my favourite game of all time. Silksong has been in my steam wishlist since 2019. And honestly, with all the exitement I have for Silksong, Im willing to wait however long it takes. I have plenty of stuff to do and play besides Silksong, so when Team Cherry (eventually) ships it, I will preorder it and enjoy it as much as I did the original Hollow Knight. I think the current world full of deadlines and milestones is fucked up and Im just following a simple philosophy: “I will not expect anything from anyone, so please don’t anyone expect anything from me”. Making anything, be it a game, or your work duties, or a personal project, under pressure is only a demotivator in my eyes.
Someone having a similar experience was robtop (at least of what I can remember). The Geometry Dash community waited roughly 7 years for a new update, and he stated he felt that because it kept delaying, fans were expecting more, so he added more stuff, and the update was delayed again. I also think communication is an important thing. While it is of course Team Cherry's choice what to do with their game, I think it would have way more positive than negative aspects if they did some kind of "devlog" or such, and communicated openly with their fanbase through a discord or so. Occasional signs that the game studio is alive is good, but I think a few screenshots would not hurt either. And it would keep some fans satisfied, because they can see that something is happening, not just hear it. And there will always be the people who want the game out asap, but I think a majority would be satisfied with occasional updates and a few screenshots of areas, or NPCs, or anything really
Great video! Loved the breakdown of the whole situation. I'm part of the fans who didn't quite understand the minimal amount of communication, but still didn't mind waiting for when the game eventually comes out, it's really nice to understand it better now. I hope this video helps at least a part of the community understand the situation better and respect the developers more.
Over 7 years for a 2D game does not bode well for a sequel. Either the vision gets lost along the way or the game is actually over designed to the point it loses any real charm or originality and the longer they take, the less opportunities there are for unique creativity when you give everyone else nearly a decade to do all the things you were going to do first.
I know this is a really bad example, but while watching the video it reminded me of Yandere Dev funnily enough. Bro kept adding shit that didn’t need to be added instead of focusing on the original goal of the game and patching out the game that was already there.
I might add that we tend to forget how long creative endeavors take, we're bombarded every day with releases, new things and some companies are able to do that, so, I think, we start taking for granted that, and we start feeling betrayed because of the absence or delay of something we're looking forward too. I love Hollow Knight, but gladly I never felt pressured to join the voices of the people asking for, I have a huge backlog of good games to play and If not, I'm busy. Do it like that and when it comes out you'll enjoy it. Don't think about it, just do other stuff meanwhile, that won't change the fact that they're doing it.
No, not really. Games take time for sure, but the issue with Silksong seems to be the constanty increasing scope that they have to put a lid on at some point. They already had a release date that we're over a year past. They believed it'd be ready.. but a year and half of extra development wasn't enough to do so ? That's not really how that works.. unless more was added, which was. Nobody can legally rush the studio. It was their own deadline. We already know they were struggling since Silksong was meant to just be a DLC, then turned full fledged game, then missed their own self-imposed deadline that they didn't need to put out there.
@@crazagres1839 Nothing that you say invalidate what I said. It's true that they set up a deadline that we all wanted to be true, but something like this doesn't go against the nature of my argument. It's easy to have high expectations when you see how some IPs get releases every two years or even every year. If they're not satisfied with their game for whatever reason I think it's ok, ofc, it's important to know when to stop and right now they're probably in a feedback loop, they keep delaying because they want to meet the ever increasing expectations people have because they keep delaying the game. Still, my take here is that you probably have a backlog of games, and if not, I'm sure you can find an amazing game to play in no time, it's ok to ask for accountability, but the pressure people is putting on the devs isn't healthy.
@@Vintagestep The deadline was something they believed they could meet, and likely could before expanding the scope further. Nobody is forcing them to place a deadline, it was their own idea / expectation. I don't have high expectations, It's just painfully clear that the scope of the game has thoroughly gotten away from team cheery. It hurts them more than it does me, they're going to have to do exponentially more work to make the game worse than it'd have been before, I got other games, they don't.(Scope expansions often hurt games more than they improve them, beyond a certain point, which we're well past.) You don't have any right to describe what people should expect. People have paid real money for Silksong, and TC has to deliver it or likely get sued. It was part of the original crowdfounding project, and it was a met goal. They quite literally have taken money for said product, and people have a right to criticize product that they already paid for being delayed so heavily.
That is a downright shame to hear that some fans have exhibited toxic behavior towards the indie devs that have produced games that these fans supposedly love. What is wrong with people out there? If you love a product that an artist makes and you want to support that artist so they can produce more of what you've enjoyed, why would you go the other way and harass the artist or go to the extreme length of issuing death threats? Just horrid... In any case, terrific work, Indie Game Oasis. I thank you for the reminder of the significant impact Nintendo had on Team Cherry by shining their Treehouse Live spotlight onto Hollow Knight. As a lifelong Nintendo fan, I know I got excited when I saw that happen during the E3s of yesteryear, but I am not sure whether it occurred to me at the time the magnitude of how many other people out there that do not regularly tune into Nintendo's announcements tuned in for that indie showcase and got super excited for Hollow Knight and Silksong as well. At the same time, I find it interesting that you pointed to the impact Nintendo had on Team Cherry's sales and growth, but you did not bring up the fact that perhaps Team Cherry's development of Silksong has also been impacted by the inevitable shift towards the Switch's successor, and that because their development had already reached a certain timeline, it is entirely possible that they are having to spend time reconfiguring the game to run on whatever the Switch's successor will be called versus focusing on the original Switch. It is even entirely possible given Hollow Knight's incredible success on Switch that maybe Team Cherry is preparing to include Silksong as part of the "Switch 2's" launch window. (Then again, I know the "Switch 2" is heavily rumored to be backwards compatible, so this could be a moot point...but we don't know enough information about either yet...) One way or another, for as much as I look forward to playing Silksong, I am fine with waiting until the game is good and ready. I do not expect it to be "better" than Hollow Knight per se, but I do expect the world to be larger and full of new surprises. Besides - the Switch is certainly not hurting for Metroidvanias these days. There are many others including Nintendo's own Metroid Dread and other indie darlings like Ori and the Will of the Wisps that are worth players' time.
No way Silksong has any sort of relationship going on with Nintendo bro. They at least had a contract with Xbox for day one gamepass last year, and if they care at all about maintaining their business relations turning around and going to Nintendo is gonna piss Microsoft off, and Nintendo would never allow a game being offered for free on another system to be one of their crown launch window jewels, especially for something as anticipated as Ounce.
In the beginning if the video, I wasn't confident you were going to make good points. The recap and particularly the brief "why Hollow Knight was successful" bit, that was very simplistic and missed a lot, had me skeptical, but your came to explain very interesting insights into indie development that I had never thought of. Thanks for the vid.
That intro story about Hollow Knight's production, marketing, and release already answers the big question a lot. Amazing phrasing! It also makes me excited for how they're going to reveal this game, when it happens.
i'm an indie developer and i have this same problem. i stg over a year ago i had rough-draft-developed a game, and was telling people "it will be done next week." i said that week after week. and in my heart and mind, i knew that i *could* release it in a week. but each week that past, i never released it. sometimes i would spend days changing a button or animation detail. even now, i think, "i must be able to release this by next month." but all this delay kills the soul. i don't care about anything anymore. i barely want to talk about my project (i'm embarrassed) and i regret ever starting.
I'm perfectly fine with how team cherry wants to do things. It's their game and they gave us so much content for a lower than average price. They can take as long as they need and want.
Agreed. I'm perfectly fine with them taking their time and deciding on zero communication. Anything they say outside of a release date will be met with anger, so saying nothing is the best thing they can do
@@machinegirl03 There have been sparse updates though. Their PR guy or whoever said they're still working on it Outside of that, there's nothing more to say until there's a release date "they wouldn't have to worry about being met with anger" jfc fans are crazy entitled
I am completely fine with how long its taking, I just want to KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. Im not afraid or ashamed to admit these devs are talented, but they are pissing me off with this stupid literally anti-sales strategy. Its not cute or unique, there’s no indeph reason for it, they just aren’t talking and that’s incompetent at best and suspicious at worst. At this point just a confirmation of a cancellation and big ol applogy would suffice. TALK GODDAMN IT
Let them cook!! It's funny that those guys are true creators, won't ship a game every few years for money, instead they're like "oh wow Hollow Knight was so successful, it means we got infinite money to create the best sequel ever, so many ideas to put into it, let's do this"
I think a very important factor to consider as well, is that Hollow knights success was a complete surprise to TC. We treat them like public figures, like celebrities, but they never intended to be public figures, they just wanted to make a game or 2.
Guys the real reason silksong isnt out is because teamcherry fell in another rabbit hole of a zote game
Zoteboat in five years 🔥
I have inside information. It'll be called Clumsy Knight: Song of Zote
@skelet8337 100% worth
Basically a religious experience
We need a Zote Song game and the gameplay is where you start off super weak and collect adjectives instead of charms.
@@BoleDaPole This could be some simple mobile game. Would be good for advertisement
Tomorrow for SURE‼️
Is he the daily silksong news guy?? He sounds very familiar
Sure Buddy, now take your medicine
@@NagyPazPOV my grandchildren in 2099 when i tell them silksong's gonna be out any day now
YEAH TOMORROW
LETS GO THATS NOW
I heavily respect the fact that they don’t want to interact with ravenous fans since it’s become very clear as of late how toxic the gaming community at large is towards developers, but part of me wishes team cherry took the Toby Fox approach and wrote tiny newsletters that gave us an idea of where they were at with development without actually showing too much from the game.
Agreed.
Yeah, that's completely true. Also, they probably told Leth not to say anything, and I respect that just because of the same thing. Some people are so toxic, if Leth responded there would be hundreds insulting him, and he has nothing to do with the delays.
It’s crazy to me how many people are so stupid, i just don’t get it, why would you give developers special treatment
Idk about this take tbh. The reason the fans are so pissed is because of team cherry’s communication style. A few updates every year would really go a long way, just so that people know that the game is actually gonna come out eventually and will be good. Obviously there are ‘ravenous’ fans that take it too far, but every fan base has those, and they should be shamed
@@Cucardo This still redounds to Team Cherry's fault though, because that environment was created by their silence. Granted those people will always exist and trolls are ever present. But they have definitely exacerbated those problems.
Well done on the deep dive. 2:38 - The three of us knew each other a long time and I quit my job to work on the game full time.
Hey David, any updates? :-)
Thank you for the kind words David, and for making such a wonderful game!
@@gammashift shut the heck up
Regardless of anything I hope you guys are having fun working on the game
@@gammashift 24:05
I know you mean well and you're being extremely polite, but the expectation of an update whenever contact is made is extremely intimidating to smaller creators.
"Today is November 3rd, 2024
This is Araraura, your host for today, bringing you your daily Silksong news.
There has been no news to report for Silksong today.
This has been your daily news for Silksong for today, November 3rd, 2024..."
Silksong'll come out some day, and it'll probably be great.
Yes there's the creator's trap of never ending up releasing anything. But For my money, as a creative, I'm very happy to see people being able to work on their things in the way that they want. Team Cherry has been granted that opportunity, and that's fantastic.
Despite the sometimes unfair levels of pressure some people put on them, knowingly or not, I hope they're having fun.
I'm excited to see what will come of it, whenever it releases. I have enough games to play in the meantime.
Yes, that is the healthiest attitude. And it's not like there's a shortage of amazing metroidvanias to play at the moment.
Same dawg.
In my opinion, they should only release Silksong once their studio is on the verge of collapsing. They should keep improving, expanding, and iterating on the game so that whenever it finally does come out, it is as good as it can possibly be.
It will release today for shaw
This is basically how I feel about it, they can take whatever time they need, they already made ONE genre defining game, let these mfs cook however long they want.
My guess… they are scared of it not living up to hollow knight. They just don’t want to disappoint
yeah, i have always been very worried that when Silksong releases, people will be mad because its not perfect or its not exactly the game they were expecting.
That definitely seemed to be the case with Valve and Half Life. But by not doing anything, disappointment is guaranteed.
@@Troutington2 expecting perfection is bound to lead to disappointment, expect a decent game I don't think they'll be disappointed.
@@Troutington2 Sure but people wouldnt be as mad if we got updates and actual expectations set, instead of relying on copium.
If that's the case then I'll be surely disappointed lol
It's been said many times, but it rings true: tough as it is to admit, the odds of Silksong actually living up to people's expectations are pretty low. There's also the potential issues of there having been so much iteration on Hollow Knight's core ideas that the game will feel very different, both in terms of combat and structure of the game. Some people will like the change, but I'm very confident that at least a small portion of the fanbase, the part that's been playing with the same relatively simple movement and mechanics religiously for 7 years now, will not. I could be wrong, I hope I am, but history and human nature don't paint a 100% optimistic picture.
But don't get me wrong, I'm confident the game will be excellent-I'm simply saying that people ought to meter their expections and expect a game that likely will not be identical (or even very similar) to their experience with Hollow Knight.
Should be top comment
If you've seen gameplay you'll know it's not identical to hollow knight, it's a new game.
When they're purposely not telling anyone what to expect the players can choose where to set those expectations. Who's fault is it then to expect more and then be disappointed? I think it's kinda pointless to care about that.
So basically, stop talking about Silksong or even forget about the game. Just wait for however many years it'll take for them to release it. I'm sure the moment they say a release date, we will all play through Hollow Knight one more time and start the journey of Silksong.
So true, I haven't thought about this game in ages then suddenly this video pops up in my recommended. The optimal scenario that I'm hoping for is that Silksong releases and I don't even know about it until a month later when some video about the game gets recommended to me
i forgot it for 5 years and its still not here..
nah, instead of announcing a release date, they should randomly shadow drop it across all platforms and then let the pandemonium ensue.
My strategy is follow multiple indie devs at the same time. Eventually someone has to ship their game right???
Put it this way… if they can’t handle it now, no matter how well silksong does… the team is toast after this. There’s no way they’re signing up for more of this if they’re this bad t handling the pressure.
I really, really, *really* appreciate the kindness in this discussion -- as someone who has just recently jumped into game development and seen how *painfully* slow it can be, it is so horrible to see how unknown creators go from being dark horse successes to being attacked everywhere. I caught up on some video game kickstarters I backed a few years ago and all the comments that are upset things aren't delivered on time, even with incredible communication, is so, so demoralizing.
I appreciate that, even without communication, you're out here giving people hope and able to make reasonable conclusions that don't involve death threats or hate mail. Thank you.
Silksong will unlock once you reach 116% completion in Hollow knight.
Why am i not able to play it then😢
One more DLC
It's a different game not a dlc
As in, they would need to release another DLC to reach 116% completion
28:35 just want to note that they couldn't retire after HK because Hornet was part of the kickstarter campaign. They are literally still on the kickstarter arc which is crazy to think about.
They could just hire a few guys to design a character or just ship one out in a month or two and call it a day.
yeah but they couldve just added hornet as a playable character or having a tiny side quest as hornet and retire but they decided to make an entirely new game instead
@@diegoalanis6283 Yep, that's all true but I wanted to clarify that the end of HK didn't mean the end of their obligations like the video made it sound
@@Tubeytime Technically, they're not obliged to produce anything with playable Hornet; they just have to make a good faith effort, and spend the Kickstarter funds on legitimate project expenses (which includes feeding the programmers). Considering that they spent through the Kickstarter funds and then some even before Hollow Knight itself released, they have satisfied their Kickstarter obligations.
Of course, there's nothing stopping them from doing more - and no reason they shouldn't take their legally non-binding commitment seriously - but them doing so is because they want to, not because they're required to.
@@rmsgrey You're wrong. "Technically" they MUST meet their exact promises for every tier goal reached. Failure to do so is a crime called fraud. In fact people have made the original kickstarter item, but failed to deliver on bonus goals, and were then hit by a lawsuit that they lost. Kickstarter isn't a donation site. It's a public funding site with rules and anyone using it is subject to the law. It is a legally binding agreement. They DID have to make a playable Hornet or they would be at risk of a lawsuit that held solid ground against them.
I'm not angry at the devs or anything, because I've done software engineering. I understand scope creep very well, it's why one of the hardest parts of development isn't the actual coding - it's figuring out how much you can do within a given time frame. Team Cherry being an indie studio means they thankfully don't have to answer to big investors, but it also means they aren't required to set a deadline for themselves either the way other software developers would have. It means if they decide on a whim "Hey, why don't we add this to the game;" they can just continue to put off the release. I am almost certain that there is some form of the game that is effectively "complete" that they could release, but their standards are so high they don't want to.
I'm certain the final release will be amazing, but the biggest issue is the total lack of communication. They don't need to engage with fans about when it'll be done - just show them it's being worked on.
I disagree, and as the video said- they can give an estimate, but then overshoot it, and have even more anger directed at them. The more you engage with fans, the more they feel entitled to engage back. I'm sure Team Cherry have received all sorts of nasty harassment and death threats because that's how people allow themselves to act online, especially to public figures.
No communication = less anxiety & harassment. I'm glad they're keeping quiet for now.
Fans are not entitled to communication.
@@Abby-ug4xc I would agree if Silksong weren't technically also a backer promise. People invested money, they deserve some amount of compensation.
@@machinegirl0324:05 should explain why they don't.
Like... _you_ might not expect that, but of the countless numbers of fans at least several hundred _will._
Edit: Also, they have Leth give confirmation that they're working on it. The video even mentions that.
@@ApexGale They promised a second playable character, not a huge sequel. They couldn't make hornet playable because she's too tall. So they could've used Zote, or another character. A sequel is way more than the backer promise
@@Abby-ug4xc Right...but they *didn't.* That's my point - the "Hornet campaign" is what was promised to the backers, and they didn't get that or anything else. Team Cherry has even said all backers will receive Silksong for free, by their own terms they have indicated that this is the equivalent of the Hornet campaign that backers were supposed to get.
I think the anticipation for Silksong got to a point where it's impossible for Team Cherry to not feel the pressure to stop adding things and concentrate on releasing. Remember, they planned to release during the first half of 2023. I would not be surprised if they were in Bug-Fixing mode since then. I imagine they are way more wary when it comes to bugs (hehe) affecting the reception of the game this time around compared to when they made Hollow Knight and were unknown.
Once I've read that they are bugfixing and playtesting for months. Idk if this is just a rumor or some truht behind it.
@@le_gus001i mean that’s about how long that should take especially considering the giant size of this game and the small amount of people working on it
Another big factor is that since consoles (and Nintendo especially) make it extremely hard for indie games to maintain parity with patches due to the certification process, and since the Switch version is so important, they have to iron out as many bugs as possible before releasing it. Significantly more than if they weren't simultaneously releasing it
@@RaptieFeathers oh that's something, which I didn't knew. Thanks for the clarification on that.
there's almost 0 pressure they literally have generational wealth now. making the game is pretty much a hobby at this point.
Guys, Hollow Knight was crowdfunded on a budget of $15,000. Hollow Knight has since sold 3 million copies at prices varying from 15-25 dollars. Lowballing it, they made $45,000,000, which is a bit more than fifteen grand. They have the budget to do literally everything they couldn't afford in Hollow Knight, but that's going to take a while.
They don't receive the entire sales price... Nintendo, PlayStation ECT... Receive a cut of the sales... But they did make a lot of money...
I am going to choose my words more carefully going forward when assessing indie-developed projects, too often I end up talking about them with the same critical tone I use for the big-budget super-studios with comparatively infinite resources.
Also I know all too well the pain of waiting on The Winds of Winter, haha. I'm resigned to the delay, I no longer expect it to release during GRRM's lifetime, and if it does, well, it'll be like Christmas morning, whatever day it is!
Happy to hear that! That's pretty much why I decided to make this video in the first place.
I'm pretty sure GRRM isn't actually writing anymore
@@esoessify He's supposedly very far into the manuscript. At least, according to him.
@@insertjokehere212 It's been like that forever, if he couldn't have finished during quarantine where he was locked inside his home, I doubt he's ever going to finish it, especially with his reaction to HotD, I'm pretty sure he's just given up at this point
Getting mad and accusing the devs of different things is beyond stupid but the general dissatisfaction with their communication is understandable. They released trailers, gameplay, had a demo, appeared on gamepass and advertising. Set so much up like they were ready to release soon then just . . .
Stopped
The issue isn’t the silence, but the massive wave of hype they created only to drop off the face of the earth
What do you even want from them. They've said it over and over again, they're working on it. They clearly don't want to give more screenshots or footage as to not spoil the game, so there's not much they can really give us besides reassuring us that the project is still alive. At this point the hollow knight community would only be satisfied if they just give a release date, which clearly that's not gonna happen right now.
Yes, the issue IS the silence.
@@mrholeio3060 Cool, they haven't thought. They haven't made a peep since 2019.
@penultimania4295 They literally have? Did you forget all of what they said in 2023, and also they've literally said that THIS YEAR. I don't think you've looked hard enough. They said something like 2 months ago at a convention and EVERYBODY ignored it.
@@mrholeio3060 Yeah I wonder why they ignored it. Maybe they should do an official fcking update on Steam or any of the official channels? Bunch of scrubs.
I truly hope Team Cherry is doing well
Not even a game like this can remain a passion project for this long. It will sooner or later turn into something negative in your life I think. That's my 2 cents but I might be totally wrong. Maybe they took some years off at some point, who knows? I wish them well too.
@@nicolasjonasson4820 This is a normal development timeline.
7 years of developing a game is not normal @Hahahahaaahaahaa
So many devs have scope creep issues. I once heard that a good idea when planning and budgeting is to just add 50%. If you need it, it's there, but you need to control your ambition.
unlike undertale, team cherry is not making any attempts to communicate, which is what most people are pretty upset with since- to them- they got a trailer and a demo of silksong back in early 2019. Come feb 2025, it'll be officially 6 years since they advertised their game and sold merch for a game they haven't released.
in june 2022, xbox announced a rough release date for the game- claiming it'd release 'within a year'. (latest assumed was june 2023.) only to have Leth make the infamous in may 2023 ('hey gang...') post, stating that it's not coming out yet on the previously assumed release date, and gave us a vague 'you'll know when it'll come out when you start seeing more updates'. It has now been a year and nearing five months since the closest thing we ever had to a 'release date', and still complete radio silence. and team cherry haven't made a noise on their media feeds since 2019.
If they bothered to just say something maybe once every few months, maybe fans wouldn't be so rabid or upset. What did they expect announcing a game nearly SIX YEARS in advanced, and then not say anything in between the wait?
Please don't be disingenuous.
If you really meant this (and actually watched this video), then you'd realize/acknowledge that we get updates at least a few times a year
@@RaptieFeathers If you call a single tweet saying "we are still working on the game" an update than yes, that's true.
@SylarSommersit is an update though is it not
@@opossokie Nah.
I loved even during the apple keynote there was people spamming for Silksong news 😭
Yooo that's the solution, take all the spam and put it over there
@@Tubeytime …then they release silksong as an apple arcade exclusive 🐸
@@Kellestial not 'Team Apple' 💀
You know i just made a comment that boils down to "c'mon guys, why do you care so much, your love for the franchise is not going to lessen if you stop stressing about not getting coms" but this one is pretty funny, i endorse this behavior if we're doing it to apple
@@matiaspereyra9392hahahahaha
I'm sick of game studios pumping out sequels right after getting success with a game. Them actually taking rhe time they need to make it exactly how they like is refreshjng as fuck. Sad that it I can't play it yet, but if we want a game as good and most likely wildly better than hollow knight, we need to let them cook.
Fnaf needs to learn a thing or two about pumping out sequels.
Except at this point you don't even know if it's coming genius. They've been silent for 5 years.
@@penultimania4295 you're getting short with people over a video game, son
@@WardenLoveless interesting you assume I'm a 'son', son.
@penultimania4295 It's the royal beastie boys "Son". If I had called you lass it would have sounded like a pirate.
you know, feature creeping makes so much sense, I should have realized it.
Mf I counted already 6 different features they're adding in Silksong that weren't in the previous game or were but now are greatly improved
problem isn't how long they are taking it's how silent they are
Yes this! Like if they gave us reasons for why they’re taking so long it’d still suck but I could at least understand. This little jig to avoid telling us anything at all is so not it. For all we know they stopped working on the game last year and the whole games been reset, it’s unlikely but we don’t KNOW
um...the video literally explains why they're silent
Finish the video.
@@ibrahimaw3893People are also saying why silent is a provlem. This YT video is also just an opinion/speculation on WHY they're silent. It's not words spoken direcrly from TC, idk why you guy keep parroting this "finish the video they explain why silent!!" lmao.
@@ibrahimaw3893 It doesn't. It's a random youtubers opinion.
It is funny to spam Silksong at games showcases, but I have never understood people being actually angry over it's development time. We live in a time where there are so many amazing games coming out every year, big and small. So many that I probably will never be able to play all the ones I want to before I die. Now I am not 13 with all the time in world so it's easy for me to say that, but even so.
Because it's been nearly a decade and a game of HK quality and length does not take this long. Not to mention they hyped everyone up then just went silent for years.
@@mentholnewport Sounds like you didn't watch the video, because it explained very well why it and other similar games take so long.
There is zero legitimate reason to be angry with them. They're humans working on a passion project and don't owe fans anything lol
Yeah exactly. There are so many amazing games, even lots of great metdroidvanias released in the past few years. Far too many to play in a lifetime. Tunic is a great one surprisingly few people know about
we r not agry because of the time the game is taking, we r mad because there is 0 communication with the fan base. It s silence radio, 0 informations for years
@@25andromede Wdym zero information. Their PR guy gives occasional updates
But there are other ppl saying zero would be better than just a little bit, so no one is going to be universally happy until tit's released
Video was well paced, well edited and informative. The voice commentary was clear and articulate. Very high quality for someone with only a few thousand subscribers man your underrated.
Thank you
wow this video is very insightful, i hope more hollow knight fans can see this vid, it definetly changed the way i looked at this situation. Thanks for this great look into other situations, and how this seems like nothing particularly new for the indie gaming industry. Have a great rest of your day/night!
I think an interesting similar situation is the release of Geometry Dash 2.2. It took almost 7 years to come out with just an update, and it's been almost a year now, but the developer (Robtop Games) also spoke about all the pressure when the update kept taking longer and longer.
by the time he dropped the update game died out and i had no interest in playing it. cus i grew up 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️ also he only dropped one level. kinda underwhelming
the update actually had loads of content, and the game did not die out lol. the community is literally bigger than ever. the update included a bunch of new platformer levels (an entire new way to play the game), a new gamemode, and the changes to the editor were huge
@ 😂😂😂😂🤦🏽♂️😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@talal3c the game did not die out bruh
The initial fanbases of relatively unknown studios are usually positive people who see value even in unfinished things and give constructive feedback to see things grow.
Once you grow too large you also get the attention of those who didn't see the process, who want everything to be perfect and available right now.
I knew the making of Hollow Knight wasn't a cakewalk but I didn't know it was this rough. It is completely understandable that they take their sweet time, even if I don't like it.
I only heard about the game years after release and I don't know if would have bothered back in 2017.
It is now my favourite game, I have learned a lot about the light and dark sides of game development, and I wish I had the skills, discipline and courage to undertake such a project or even a smaller one.
Silksong is the Winds of Winter of gaming.
Well not quite that bad. We're not getting Winds of Winter, ever. Even the writer has more more or less admitted to doing no work in for more then a couple years at this point, as well as beliving he might not finish it himself.
Silksong will likely be done at some point unless team cherry just keeps expanding the scope until the studio goes under.
I honestly think the best thing you can do as an indie dev to keep your community happy is having a healthy modding community. I understand there are definitely restrictions to this (console), but i still think its a very important part of a games community.
even then the community may still be unsatisfied with the devs like the fnf community was
Hollow knight's modding: Pantheon 5 with 50 immortal primal aspids
Bro didnt even watch the video
@@TheProbots yes I watched the video what i said isn’t really related but i still said it
modding community exists in HK but the community is still not happy
"Art is never finished, only abandoned” - Leonardo da Vinci (attributed)
As a writer, scopecreep is a very powerful phenomenon. At first, my fantasy story was very bare-boned, and I had trouble coming up with ideas for the plot and setting.
Now it's over 900 pages and continuing to grow in complexity and detail, and I desperately need to cut out a lot of content.
29:00 summarizes the video, in case you were wondering
Another thing to note is that a small studio has a team dynamic which makes it hard to fit more people to fill roles that the established team doesn't fill, and if you engage with the community, that is a whole set of roles. As a contrast, consider something like Hades 2. I'm on the discord and playing the early access, and it definitely does serve their process to use early access and engage with the fans more consistently than Team Cherry did, but despite not being a AAA studio, Supergiant Games still has more people just wrangling the community than team cherry has period, and they need that despite having a development cycle which is MUCH better than TC's for the purpose of keeping impatient fans satisfied.
I sat through the entire video without pausing or skipping forward. Good job
I'm leaving after 1min. Anything I miss?
@@VeloViosyes
that's not much of an accomplishment
Holy broken attention span
@@VeloVios You just missed the release date.
the only thing i'll be excited for in silksong is the lack of primal aspids
The reason they're taking so long is because they've actually been reworking 'silksong' into 'Return of the Primal Aspids - the Primal Aspid-ening'. An insider source told me that every single character had to be redesigned into a primal aspid, including the player character.
They weren’t even that bad
@@dabbingraccoons6416Yeah they’re terrible do trial of the fool
Bold of you to assume you're ever going to get to play Silksong. If you ask me, I think Silksong is some sort of elaborate social experiment and there is no real game 😂
23:03 - Other fans, maybe. Personally, I gave up long ago. There's no way George will live long enough to finish the story. Best case scenario, we get the Winds of Winter and that's it. ASoIaF as a whole, though, will _never_ be finished. George lacks the time, motivation, energy, etc. to do it. Unfortunately, the shitty TV show ending is the only ending the story will ever have, and I made peace with that several years ago.
something i wonder about the development of silksong is if it was being developed in unity like hollow knight. Because that would be another thing to put into account; the possible delay of changing engines due to unity falling from grace during it's development. So its not hard to think they would have to port the whole game over to a new engine like gadot or make their own from scratch which spawns a whole new gaggle of challenges or with a custom engine more opportunities to expand on. Changing an engine mid development is a KILLER for even AAA company titles so if team cherry had to switch off of unity you can imagine the kind of stress that can put on development.
By the time of the unity drama they were definitely already way too far into development to switch engines lol, like 4 years for an indie studio has put them too far in to just change and learn a brand new engine
it still says unity on the silksong website and it was updated after the unity stuff that happened so no that’s not the problem
Okay, and if that were the case, why wouldn't they take literally fifteen, yes, fifteen seconds to type "Due to recent events regarding Unity, we are switching engines. This will take a lot of work"? They literally have hired a social media person and all he does is make random troll remarks in the discord once a year.
@xelith6157 because they didn’t swap from unity? it literally says on their website they are still using unity and the website was updated after everything that happened with unity lol.
The more time goes by, the more I feel like frequent and informative communication is one of the single most effective things a game developer can do to market their game. (Or even professions far beyond game development, really.)
Unfortunately, it's also one of the hardest.
Even though Hollow Knight is one of my favorite games of all time, I don't mind waiting for Silksong for a couple reasons.
1) I am completely willing to wait for the amount of time needed to fix most bugs/glitches or errors in the game to make sure it has a fantastic launch
2) The creative process is slow and takes a long time to not just come up with ideas, but to then actually execute on them, creating the drawings and music, making the gameplay feel fresh with that idea, piecing that together with your whole game, and making it flow for story. Its a lot of work and Team Cherry is one of the few dev teams I have seen that actually has so much passion for what they are doing. For the interviews they have done and Matt has done, you can tell they love the work they are doing, and they want this game to be amazing. The Indie's Gamers Podcast is great because hearing his passion for TC working on their project is awesome.
My only major complaint that I think most people have is the silence, however not them just being silent, but rather preparing us for an amazing launch with game pass and showing us a cool demo back in 2019 and really hyping our expectations, only to say they had to delay to keep working on the game (which is completely fine) but then not updating the community about anything. Very few updates around holidays in their discord or one off Tweets. They have chosen to be incredibly silent after preparing us for many years of hype to then kinda just back out quietly. A lot of people say the amount of pressure they are under must be tremendous, and it absolutely is, but part of that is their own doing with the direction they took to advertise the game and give us a release window with xbox. However I do know that working under that pressure can be very difficult, or maybe they even feel none and are truly just in the zone pouring ideas out of their heads. They were infact out of money right when Hk released. They had an okay launch, got amazing marketing, and continued to update and expand the game to make it one of the best indie games to date. Now they have the time and money, which means they get to truly put their strengths to the test and deliver a beautiful project, and I cant wait to be ready to buy it day one, no matter how long it takes. Much love HK community and TC
Who gives a shit? The game will come out when it comes out... Why do you need to be "updated"? It's nobody's business what they are doing... They seem like private people and probably don't like interacting with a bunch of dumbass people aka "fans"... I don't blame them...
My only problem is that nobody forced them to give the initial release date they said. The fact that it's as late as it is without even a second trailer, the least they could do is say something.
Imagine thinking you're owed something.
@ imagine being so loyal to a studio that doesn’t know or care about you, that the slightest bit of criticism from a random fan gets you upset enough to reply like an asshole.
Wdym, we got a showcase and a trailer what else do you want? And btw that trailer didn't have a release date but then afterwards Microsoft said "everything you'll see today is coming out within the next 12 months" and on a tweet thay clarified they meant it about EVERYTHING, but even then, disregard everything I've said, god forbid they do whatever they want with their game that you haven't yet payed for
@@matiaspereyra9392 I’ll never understand why there are people who get so upset at the most lightweight criticism. All I said was I wish they would give an update on the game that was supposed to come out 3 years ago calm the fuck down bro.
@@zachc12 Your kind of people is destroying gaming
Entitled, ungrateful f***s
I think the silent approach is kind of ridiculous. As a fighting game player it’s just really unhealthy to leave your community in the dark for so long like this. Even Rune Scape does podcasts with developers letting people know how development is going and what features they might add. It’s not about having to deal with rabid or toxic fans but just to keep in touch with the community that supports you.
Who cares.... They don't owe fans anything... Maybe they don't feel like going on podcasts or talking to people... It's a fucking video game... When it comes out it comes out... Why do we need to know "they're still working on it" isn't that already a given?
@thomaslove6494 I respect the dedication it takes to make games, and I am not trying to downplay team Cherry's hardwork... but to say they owe fans nothing is kind of a bad take.
Without the support and belief from fans through Kickstarter, Hollow Knight may never have reached the same popularity it eventually did. And Silksong was originally attached to that same Kickstarter project.
No one is asking for 100% of the details on the development. We all just want more transparency and communication rather than being left in the dark for years.
@@rapta_gg8059 the Kickstarter is over and everything has been delivered... Give me a break... They promised a video game and delivered one of the greatest Metroidvanias of all time. They owe nothing to anyone... They're making a second game anyway... When the game comes out millions and millions of people will buy it... Nuff said they talk when and if they want to....
They dropped like 5 FREE DLCs for hollow Knight as well and only charged 15 bucks for the game... Trying to hold 70k from a Kickstarter over their heads is actually unbelievable....
Basically constraints lead to creativity that actually accomplishes something. Infinite budgets/time/ideas poison the creative process and lead nowhere.
I think the best thing we as a community can do is not think about it too much. Let it sink into the back of our conciousness as a cool thing that will eventually come out but that se shouldn’t get too excited about. Thats what ive been doing. I believe that they will eventually pull the trigger and release it, but i’m happy with it being a pleasant surprise when it eventually happens.
This was a really good video! Usually videos like this end up being kind of empty but this was some really interesting analysis!
Really good video, explained everything super well!
Man I hope they take longer just so I can see the how much more the human spirit can take using the skong subReddit as a experiment
God, i love the skong sub. Makes me feel like the joker. Why so serious.
@@CarlosDiaz-fs6cv You should see the Batman Arkham subreddit
I agree, and then when it comes out and people complain it's not SO GOOD that it gives them luscious locks and abs and a million dollars in their bank account, I'm going to clown on them so hard
One thing to add as well. The manga series bleach written by Tite Kubo is in a similar place the ice and fire series. People wanted for the bleach series to continue and pressed and pressed Tite much that during the end of the manga, he didn’t really care to much and just wanted it to be over with. Now, over a decade after the manga finished, we’ve only gotten about 5 different light novels and a single manga chapter that act as a continuation onto the story
I get not wanting to interact with rabid fans of the game, but updating the blog with at least "we are still developing, here are 3 screenshots of something development related" once a year would diminish this fear that the game will never be released. There is a bad behavior on the fans part, but the years of silence from team Cherry just serve to feed the spiraling behavior.
We waited 10 years for pikmin 4,
Good luck silksong fans.
Rayman 4:
I mean we're already over halfway there lol
Can't wait to be recommended this video again in 1 year when Silksong still isn't out.
Silksong will come out when Team Cherry are satisfied with what has been made.
It will be at minimum just Hollow Knight but a bit larger and with a new playable character and that is already good enough.
There are other wonderful games, metroidvania or otherwise, that can be played in the meantime.
Good good and fkcing good. This is exactly what they should be doing, working on the project until they feel confident and have it perfected. It's why hollow knight was such an amazing game, they are not going to release in an unfinished state and God forbid they get rushed by a bunch of impatient children like every other dev studio into releasing something they weren't comfortable with but the masses wanted it.
Take your time, this game is going to be incredible and I'm more then willing to wait.
ConcernedApe, Stardew Volley developer, work on two game, solo dev, able to frequently writte update and keeping in touch with the community.
But TC hired a PR person, couldn't do it lol.
Do you think the workload is so much they just can't find time to tweet? Or possibly legal issues or development issues refraining them from tweeting
Wait what ? You cannot tell me this studio has a PR person. Bro, give me their job. That is the most free, unearned paycheck ever concieved by mankind.
I can't wait to play this game while reading Winds of Winter.
6:35 Wait I just noticed, that’s from the Slay The Princess Soundtrack. Good to see that a top-tier game is getting some recognition!
Sorry, love that game too, but that whole soundtrack that he was playing was still from hollow knight, gimme a minute to find the exact theme
Yup, it’s just city of tears ost 👍
that's from hollow knight lol
I understand the message of the video, it's just hard to be patient when you're in the dark for so long.
I think Ari and William have a right to tinker away at their project, but I also think Leth has a responsibility to show *what* is going on to any extent. I'm not asking for them to put together another demo or trailer, or even release a music track. Just bother them for a screenshot. A doodle, a piece of concept art. That's it.
Having concrete proof that something is happening behind the curtain is more than enough for people like myself.
The thing that will make people raise eyebrows is not being quiet or not giving updates.
But when you’ve had several trailers (some sponsored by Xbox) and that was 5 years ago it makes people concerned on progress or if they announced way too early.
This feature creep could result in a fantastic sequel or something that never truly comes to fruition.
actual video starts around 8:40 btw
Super important takeaways you gave, and it’s horrible to hear how dehumanized authors and devs have felt thanks to their fanbase. If you have the urge to yell at a creator for a sequel, shut up and go touch grass
15:41 if you want different information no offense but I’ve literally heard the entire auto biography of team cherry a billion times i don’t wana hear it again 😭
good news, this isn't an autobiography
No matter how good the game will be once it releases, there's no excuse for Team Cherry not keeping their fans updated on the progress of the game, and also not releasing it in a reasonable timeframe and updating it with new features afterwards.
I feel like the recently-released UFO 50 is one of these types of projects that was just released. Literally 50 entire games that have been worked on for around a decade, worked on by ~5 people (most of whom worked on Spelunky, which assumedly helped cover finances). When these sorts of games come out, they typically are huge hits
Isn't Team like main 3 people? ( or at least from what I have seen and somewhat mentioned in your video, I might check the credits again cuz I have forgotten since then )
Like I would imagine that if they are trying to make a game that has an expectation to stand next to it's previous title, and that seems pretty challenging, especially with the level of excitement people have..
I don't follow hollow knight much, I played it and it was really good!
For me the next game gets out when it's gets out.
Although I can understand that the wait for the next game is long and grueling for some people, I mean i have seen some stuff while browsing stuff around the game.
Yep, Team Cherry only employs three full-time employees afaik.
My entire issue is that they released a trailer for what *looked* like a mostly ready game, not a "we are massively increasing the scope of our work so its gonna take 5 years and also this is the last significant update you'll get for 5 years"
Like, they needed to either not release that early trailer and just go stealth mode with occasional "Still alive, not done yet" updates OR release that trailer and give regular updates about the state of development. They went with the worst option of generating a ton of hype with what LOOKED like a feature complete trailer and THEN going radio silent for 5 years. And no, the occasional "we're still working on it" updates do not count as communication, they are the absolute minimum to let us know the company still exists, but they tell us *nothing* about the game.
Team Cherry built a hype train, the crashed it into a mountain. THAT is the problem.
Interacting with one’s community is something most game devs would prefer not to do. It is mentally draining
You can easily just respond to your fans and say how the development is going doesn't sound very draining to me. You don't even have to look at feedback. @dr.banana47
Agree.
And had a gameplay demo too
@dr.banana47yeah sending a single tweet every few months is so draining. I Mena you have to pick up your phone, then unlock it, the click on the app icon my god at that point you might as well just go radio silent....wait
I am convinced Silksong is just an elaborate troll by team cherry to see how long they can get people to wait for a game.
I don't think any reasonable person is complaining about the wait but purely about 5 years of dead silence.
People have to stop being so afraid of others seeing them as spoiled and thus denying their worth.
The community, through support, promoting and ESPECIALLY financial backing, has brought Team Cherry to the privileged position they currently hold.
Getting a single tweet once a year to let us know that work is getting along, and that they haven't forgotten us is not too much to ask for. It's the bare minimum.
I'm not mad or stressed out or anything but I do know that people have every right to complain about being ignored.
14:21
Small mistake here, producers aren't the ones seeking funding.
In a structure like Larian that you are using as your visual, it's the role of the Business Development department who is generally composed of business oriented people.
Producers are the people that organise teams and create schedules to make sure everyone has a task and can contribute optimally to the game's progress.
In very small structures, it's the role of the CEO to seek funding. Sure, some might even have producers do it, but that is not the standard :)
(Source: I work at a publisher haha)
i think they should just surprise release the game when theyre done. just drop a trailer that says "available now"
You really can't level any criticism at Team Cherry at all when you understand this is only their second game, they've only beem developing games for a decade, and they are a tiny team, whereas even multibillion dollar companies like nintendo, with huge teams and resources, and over FOUR DECADES of experience in the industry, cannot competently manage a project or predict how long it will take with any degree of accuracy at all. I mean look at Tears of the Kingdom. That was a franchise they've been making games in since the 80s, and they're ALWAYS delayed REPEATEDLY, and yet every new game, they think they know what the release date will be, amd they're wrong. Again and again. That was a game where they basically already went through the exact same development cycle with BotW, and they STILL could not figure out what they were doing or how long it would take. That was a game where they already had the entire game engine pre-existing from the last game, almost the entire map pre-existing from the last game, and the majority of the assets pre-existing from the last game. And it was fuck up after fuck up, delay after delay. Again, a multi billion dollar company, four decades in the industry, and a game they had already made once, in a series they've been making and remaking since the 80s. No clue what they're doing. To wonder why Team Cherry is taking this long or saying nothing is frankly laughable.
Saying you can't criticize people because this is their second game is such a delusional take. Deltarune is Toby's second game (third if you count Earthbound: Halloween hack) and he is doing an outstanding job on communicating with the fans. He has also struggled with feature-creep on chapters 3-4 of Deltarune, but he acknowledges that in his newsletters, of which he releases every few months with EXTENSIVE coverage on how game development is going. To list another example, Hakita (lead dev of ULTRAKILL) is currently working on a enemy/level rework, and he has been doing so for a year. The community isn't mad at him, however, because he keeps in contact with fans via discord and youtube.
(sorry if this is a long comment, I originally just wanted to write the first sentence but I kept going lol)
The delay is fine. The silence is not.
Nothing can excuse them from not giving any updates. They would have been better off just saying they have huge scope creep and the game is delayed till 2030, then the current silence.
Thing is, HK had an initial release and a bunch of add-on releases. They can control scope creep to ship Silksong and then deliver addons.
Welp, why devs are afraid to talk with le community about "when release"? - because more times than not community devolves into a mass of screeching apes when confronted with the reality that things take time, besides just the well known fear about commitment anyone faces: you have a deadline and you are get more and more shidded the closer to it you are
I’m still reeling over how I got Geometry Dash 2.2 before Silksong. That said, let them cook.
team cherry = cherry team
I 1000000% agree with all of this because Team Cherry did a miraculous job with Hollow Knight. If I had even a single wish, it would be to destroy all material wealth. My reasoning comes from observing others suffering from decisions that barely allow them to survive another day in this cruel world. I would love to assist Team Cherry, but that isn't possible due to my current situation. I just hope the community can be patient for however long they need to.
All material wealth? That does include housing you realise.
Also, we would end up back in the days of trading if all the receipts became unusable. There would be little in the way of specialised job roles or likely making games at all in the first place, because everyone would be focusing on survival. There is also no way to make this a smooth process economically if you apply this in the present. In otherwords, money may not be the most comprehensive system by itself; but it is way better then what we had. Especially if ones country has universal healthcare.
@@lunyxappocalypse7071 😓lemme specify what I meant: I would destroy the need for money in all forms, but I didn’t mean full destruction of material wealth. I just wanna remove money from society so people realize how much freedom they can have when doing things they love without having to worry about the limitations of money.
Hollow Knight is my favourite game of all time. Silksong has been in my steam wishlist since 2019. And honestly, with all the exitement I have for Silksong, Im willing to wait however long it takes. I have plenty of stuff to do and play besides Silksong, so when Team Cherry (eventually) ships it, I will preorder it and enjoy it as much as I did the original Hollow Knight.
I think the current world full of deadlines and milestones is fucked up and Im just following a simple philosophy: “I will not expect anything from anyone, so please don’t anyone expect anything from me”. Making anything, be it a game, or your work duties, or a personal project, under pressure is only a demotivator in my eyes.
Someone having a similar experience was robtop (at least of what I can remember). The Geometry Dash community waited roughly 7 years for a new update, and he stated he felt that because it kept delaying, fans were expecting more, so he added more stuff, and the update was delayed again. I also think communication is an important thing. While it is of course Team Cherry's choice what to do with their game, I think it would have way more positive than negative aspects if they did some kind of "devlog" or such, and communicated openly with their fanbase through a discord or so. Occasional signs that the game studio is alive is good, but I think a few screenshots would not hurt either. And it would keep some fans satisfied, because they can see that something is happening, not just hear it. And there will always be the people who want the game out asap, but I think a majority would be satisfied with occasional updates and a few screenshots of areas, or NPCs, or anything really
I wouldn't mind waiting longer for a better game, but I think they should be a bit more open to communicating with us.
It'd anger the fans even more, look at what happened with OMORI
@@chipsalancienne3080the opposite happened to rainworld, now what
.... Except, as this video points out, they do in fact communicate.
Fans just choose to ignore them for some reason. 🫤
Great video!
Loved the breakdown of the whole situation.
I'm part of the fans who didn't quite understand the minimal amount of communication, but still didn't mind waiting for when the game eventually comes out, it's really nice to understand it better now.
I hope this video helps at least a part of the community understand the situation better and respect the developers more.
Over 7 years for a 2D game does not bode well for a sequel. Either the vision gets lost along the way or the game is actually over designed to the point it loses any real charm or originality and the longer they take, the less opportunities there are for unique creativity when you give everyone else nearly a decade to do all the things you were going to do first.
13:10 where is terraria? It has like 1 mil reviews on steam
I know this is a really bad example, but while watching the video it reminded me of Yandere Dev funnily enough. Bro kept adding shit that didn’t need to be added instead of focusing on the original goal of the game and patching out the game that was already there.
I might add that we tend to forget how long creative endeavors take, we're bombarded every day with releases, new things and some companies are able to do that, so, I think, we start taking for granted that, and we start feeling betrayed because of the absence or delay of something we're looking forward too. I love Hollow Knight, but gladly I never felt pressured to join the voices of the people asking for, I have a huge backlog of good games to play and If not, I'm busy. Do it like that and when it comes out you'll enjoy it. Don't think about it, just do other stuff meanwhile, that won't change the fact that they're doing it.
No, not really. Games take time for sure, but the issue with Silksong seems to be the constanty increasing scope that they have to put a lid on at some point. They already had a release date that we're over a year past. They believed it'd be ready.. but a year and half of extra development wasn't enough to do so ? That's not really how that works.. unless more was added, which was. Nobody can legally rush the studio. It was their own deadline. We already know they were struggling since Silksong was meant to just be a DLC, then turned full fledged game, then missed their own self-imposed deadline that they didn't need to put out there.
@@crazagres1839 Nothing that you say invalidate what I said. It's true that they set up a deadline that we all wanted to be true, but something like this doesn't go against the nature of my argument. It's easy to have high expectations when you see how some IPs get releases every two years or even every year. If they're not satisfied with their game for whatever reason I think it's ok, ofc, it's important to know when to stop and right now they're probably in a feedback loop, they keep delaying because they want to meet the ever increasing expectations people have because they keep delaying the game. Still, my take here is that you probably have a backlog of games, and if not, I'm sure you can find an amazing game to play in no time, it's ok to ask for accountability, but the pressure people is putting on the devs isn't healthy.
@@Vintagestep
The deadline was something they believed they could meet, and likely could before expanding the scope further. Nobody is forcing them to place a deadline, it was their own idea / expectation.
I don't have high expectations, It's just painfully clear that the scope of the game has thoroughly gotten away from team cheery. It hurts them more than it does me, they're going to have to do exponentially more work to make the game worse than it'd have been before, I got other games, they don't.(Scope expansions often hurt games more than they improve them, beyond a certain point, which we're well past.)
You don't have any right to describe what people should expect. People have paid real money for Silksong, and TC has to deliver it or likely get sued. It was part of the original crowdfounding project, and it was a met goal. They quite literally have taken money for said product, and people have a right to criticize product that they already paid for being delayed so heavily.
That is a downright shame to hear that some fans have exhibited toxic behavior towards the indie devs that have produced games that these fans supposedly love. What is wrong with people out there? If you love a product that an artist makes and you want to support that artist so they can produce more of what you've enjoyed, why would you go the other way and harass the artist or go to the extreme length of issuing death threats? Just horrid...
In any case, terrific work, Indie Game Oasis. I thank you for the reminder of the significant impact Nintendo had on Team Cherry by shining their Treehouse Live spotlight onto Hollow Knight. As a lifelong Nintendo fan, I know I got excited when I saw that happen during the E3s of yesteryear, but I am not sure whether it occurred to me at the time the magnitude of how many other people out there that do not regularly tune into Nintendo's announcements tuned in for that indie showcase and got super excited for Hollow Knight and Silksong as well. At the same time, I find it interesting that you pointed to the impact Nintendo had on Team Cherry's sales and growth, but you did not bring up the fact that perhaps Team Cherry's development of Silksong has also been impacted by the inevitable shift towards the Switch's successor, and that because their development had already reached a certain timeline, it is entirely possible that they are having to spend time reconfiguring the game to run on whatever the Switch's successor will be called versus focusing on the original Switch. It is even entirely possible given Hollow Knight's incredible success on Switch that maybe Team Cherry is preparing to include Silksong as part of the "Switch 2's" launch window. (Then again, I know the "Switch 2" is heavily rumored to be backwards compatible, so this could be a moot point...but we don't know enough information about either yet...)
One way or another, for as much as I look forward to playing Silksong, I am fine with waiting until the game is good and ready. I do not expect it to be "better" than Hollow Knight per se, but I do expect the world to be larger and full of new surprises. Besides - the Switch is certainly not hurting for Metroidvanias these days. There are many others including Nintendo's own Metroid Dread and other indie darlings like Ori and the Will of the Wisps that are worth players' time.
No way Silksong has any sort of relationship going on with Nintendo bro. They at least had a contract with Xbox for day one gamepass last year, and if they care at all about maintaining their business relations turning around and going to Nintendo is gonna piss Microsoft off, and Nintendo would never allow a game being offered for free on another system to be one of their crown launch window jewels, especially for something as anticipated as Ounce.
@ What’s Ounce?
Anyways, the two are not mutually exclusive. Team Cherry can wait ‘til Switch 2 comes out AND be on XBox Game Pass Day 1. Win-win-win.
Cooked food takes time.
Didn't know we were having century eggs. Will be tasty though.
doesnt mean they shouldnt inform us about the development
mmm i love eggs that take 6 years to make, so crunchy, and they taste like nothing good
@@thedayismonday7952 do chefs inform you about how your food's cooking process is going every few minutes? /j
It does, and slow cooked food is delicious ^___^
In the beginning if the video, I wasn't confident you were going to make good points. The recap and particularly the brief "why Hollow Knight was successful" bit, that was very simplistic and missed a lot, had me skeptical, but your came to explain very interesting insights into indie development that I had never thought of. Thanks for the vid.
That intro story about Hollow Knight's production, marketing, and release already answers the big question a lot. Amazing phrasing!
It also makes me excited for how they're going to reveal this game, when it happens.
1:02 none of this is true their just dead (joke)
Let Them Cook!
It is already released, what are you guys talking about
i'm an indie developer and i have this same problem. i stg over a year ago i had rough-draft-developed a game, and was telling people "it will be done next week." i said that week after week. and in my heart and mind, i knew that i *could* release it in a week. but each week that past, i never released it. sometimes i would spend days changing a button or animation detail. even now, i think, "i must be able to release this by next month." but all this delay kills the soul. i don't care about anything anymore. i barely want to talk about my project (i'm embarrassed) and i regret ever starting.
I'm still watching, but phenomenal video man. Please keep it up, only 3.8k subs is criminal for this quality.
I'm perfectly fine with how team cherry wants to do things. It's their game and they gave us so much content for a lower than average price. They can take as long as they need and want.
But just saying they’re alive can help a lot. Consistently updated devlogs would be great
Agreed. I'm perfectly fine with them taking their time and deciding on zero communication. Anything they say outside of a release date will be met with anger, so saying nothing is the best thing they can do
@@machinegirl03 There have been sparse updates though. Their PR guy or whoever said they're still working on it
Outside of that, there's nothing more to say until there's a release date
"they wouldn't have to worry about being met with anger" jfc fans are crazy entitled
I am completely fine with how long its taking, I just want to KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL. Im not afraid or ashamed to admit these devs are talented, but they are pissing me off with this stupid literally anti-sales strategy. Its not cute or unique, there’s no indeph reason for it, they just aren’t talking and that’s incompetent at best and suspicious at worst. At this point just a confirmation of a cancellation and big ol applogy would suffice. TALK GODDAMN IT
Let them cook!! It's funny that those guys are true creators, won't ship a game every few years for money, instead they're like "oh wow Hollow Knight was so successful, it means we got infinite money to create the best sequel ever, so many ideas to put into it, let's do this"
I really thought you would use the selling data to predict when they would run out of money and be forced to release the game
I think a very important factor to consider as well, is that Hollow knights success was a complete surprise to TC. We treat them like public figures, like celebrities, but they never intended to be public figures, they just wanted to make a game or 2.
Answer at 21:25 Cool video though. :)