The Reason Drivers HATE Cyclists? We Asked An Expert | GCN Show Ep. 574
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- Why are car drivers so angry with cyclists? We've all been aggressively beeped, shouted at or even threatened on the roads but where has this road rage come from? In this week's GCN show, a transport expert explains the reasons for the battle of road users, bicycle vs car. In cycling shorts, Orbea has announced a partnership with Lotto Destiny and there are more innovative hack & bodges!
GCN article " What causes road rage between cyclists and drivers?" 👉 gcn.eu/axJ
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00:00 Intro
02:27 Why are car drivers so angry
02:53 Interview with transportation expert
12:30 Cycling shorts
14:26 Precision Fuel and Hydration partnership 👉 @precisionfandh
16:10 Zwift 30 in 30 challenge 👉 @Zwift
18:11 Hack/bodge
22:19 Caption competition
25:31 Comments of the week
31:45 Coming up on GCN
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Why do you think there is so much anger towards cyclists? 🚲
Let us know in the comments below 💬
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Why do you think there is so much anger towards cyclists? 🚲
Probably the lack of patience to yield lol
Any motorist where I am, due to all the hills, is going to see few cyclists. Despite that, I - as a non-driver, I bike as my main mode of transport - have seen many other cyclists completely violate the road rules. Even if I say something, I usually get ignored, and even have been insulted in response! It runs the gamut of people. Some in full lycra blowing red lights, stopsigns, and I've even seen one riding down the double yellow line because of the traffic being too slow. And some who look, for lack of a better term, "low income" riding helmetless against traffic in the gutter/door zone, riding on the sidewalk and then jay"walking" from one sidewalk to the other instead of using the crosswalk or merging with traffic. This has gotten worse with the uptick of ebike usage.
Professor Norton is exactly correct. We decided to deprioritize cycling and walking, namely in post-WW2 development, to push our vision of cars as the future of transportation. Now it's clear that the future we thought would be revolutionary, has only revolutionized our ability to turn a blind eye to large scale loss of life, for the benefit of a single private industry.
There are people talking about how it's a "war on the roads" or a "war on cars" based out of reactionary fearmongering pushed by the moneyed interests that want to continue to dominate the transportation market, even after more and more evidence comes out that EVs will only mean cars continue to get heavier (thus more dangerous), while also failing to contribute significantly less to climate change than their gas-powered counterparts.
There _was_ a war on the roads already; one which the automotive lobby won. That's how we got where we are today.
I think there is, and likely always will be, a definite sense of them and us. This is in so many places between so many groups, it is going to be there.
I drive and cycle, I find there are times were the road and surrounding looks too extremely made for 1 or the other. In truth many aren't great for either.
One example of the above from years back in a place that had an urban dual carriageway changed from 2 lanes each way to 1, making the inside lane a cycle lane. Unfortunately the person who designed this had likely not ridden a bike since childhood. There were joins in the tarmac they laid for it every 20 metres or so, making it uncomfortable to ride on. When one of the residents stopped me to ask why I was riding beside the cycle lane, not on the only remianing lane, but between hatchings. It had angered him against cyclists. When I explained, he realised he was angry at a group who hadn't caused the issue.
100% what Peter said and that there are 2 paradigms in operation on the roads between cyclists and cars due to the fact that people are in cars trying to get somewhere and cyclists are not.
I've concluded this week that the drivers who hate cyclists are the same drivers who just hate anyone that "gets in their way". They are the type of person who needs to find someone else to blame for them leaving late. Sure, some cyclists don't do themselves any favours but then neither do some drivers.
So true and I see that in discount retail stores, some customers walk through the front door with an agenda not to satisfied no matter what. Last summer, a gent asked me the procedure for returning a battery core and buying a replacement and as I was respectfully explaining that he should take the core to customer service and then, at which point he interjected, "Oh, you're no help!" And so I bid him a nice day and let that be that. And just this past Saturday night, we had a six-inch snowfall here, and as I was carefully riding my mountain bike to McDonald's for a cup of coffee and some time to read, a motorist honked its horn at me and like, why? There was plenty of room for both of us, yet that driver evidently felt that I did not belong out on snowy streets on my bicycle. And I usually do nothing but in this instance I waved for about five seconds, as tho' an old friend had seen me and honked to get my attention. 😀
True. I’d go further to say that they’re also the same people who were bullies at school etc etc. in other words w***kers.
This is what it really is. It's either someone that is so dumb they don't know bikes are allowed or someone who just hates hitting the brake no matter what.
100% yes. These are the same people treating their waiters terribly and negatively generalizing most of society
There are also alot of excuses that have passed throughout people now to justify their anger such as well they don't pay road tax when that was a policy abolished long before cars became widely used. This tax now being souly for emissions produced by the vehicle of a certain age. Electrics automatically do not need to pay this and classic cars you must apply to not pay vehicle tax. The passing of red lights do not apply to all cyclists and that it annoys most cyclists too and that if the cycle path is on a pathway its much safer and easier to carry along the road for momentum as people walk on these for no reason at all and reduction of slowing for curbs that can cause punctures. On top of this bike lanes are obscured by lazy motorists who cannot park in their driveway or allocated parking spots and instead park over the bike lane forcing cyclists to move out into the flow of traffic.
I must say this is a very eye-opening yet very eloquent explanation by Prof. Peter Norton. Kudos to the GCN team for this! Keep up the good work fam.
Fascinating right! Would you like us to cover more road safety? ✍
@@gcn It would be useful to cover such issues as cycling infrastructure design cost and usage & cycling behaviours too.
sometimes is is clear that good cycling infrastructure actually helps both cyclist and other road users.
@@gcn absolutely! The more knowledgeable us cyclists are, the more power we have when lobbying our local authorities for better cycling infrastructure.
Yeah, I had never heard of the transportation triangle but that makes so much sense. Here in the US they really are just trying to make that broken system work.
I grew up in Canberra and I cycled all over the city from the mid 1980s to the mid 1990s. I never once needed to worry about safety. I was back on holiday there last year and was shocked at the increase in over-sized utes, as well as SUVs and 4x4s, many of which were clean as a whistle and probably rarely if ever see a lumber yard, muddy field, or outback trail. Mostly status symbols, like Chelsea Tractors on the school run. Not reassuring, as the car is still king in Canberra because it's so spread out and the population density is so low, so drivers take priority over the relatively few cyclists and pedestrians to be seen.
Good comment, Canberra still has a way to go. Better for cycling than bigger Australian cities, but certainly no Amsterdam yet. Still lots of abusive drivers who scream at you that you should be on the bike paths, even if you are in a bike lane. One problem is most bike paths are generally designated co use with pedestrians. Even the bike only paths have people wandering on them regularly. Leads to lots of dangerous situations.
Despite this, lots of great cycling of all sorts. GCN, GMBN and GTN should all pay a visit.
@@davidpoulter7093 Agree it's all relative to the other cities- I used to live in Melbourne where areas like the CBD, Brunswick & Carlton were absolute nightmares; the roads are narrow, messy and chaotic, and the drivers are aggressive. Now I live in Canberra and I think it's an absolute dream!!
Cars are certainly getting bigger 👀 What do you think could be done to make our roads safer to cycle on?
@@gcn As we've seen this week, a TV or film can have a huge emotional leverage on change. "BMX Bandits" was what got me into cycling as a teen.
As an automotive engineer, and only been in Oz for 20 years I have seen the size of vehicles increase. As has the number of large vehicle sales. And hence the whinging about how the car park spaces are all of a sudden apparently smaller. With sales moving from sedans to small cars and large pick ups/4x4, and laterly sway from small cars - the trend is probably unlikely to improve soon.
This was an excellent episode. Thanks for putting this topic out there and having Peter Norton on.
No worries Dave 🙌 Thanks to our web team for creating such a great article, we'll be sure to cover more of this subject in the future!
4:10 As a pedestrian we may have the right of way but I still won't go out to exercise that right if a car is coming for fear of the driver being distracted on their phone more than thinking the street is for cars.
So true! I can't say how many times I've had to stop because the motorists weren't paying attention. I even was hit walking on a crosswalk because the driver didnt know there was someone crossing. Now I make sure I'm the attentive one.
@@jstnclee Yeah, it's bad out there with drivers these days. I sold my motorcycle because of crazy drivers and that's why I took to gravel or riding paved bike paths just to get away from the cars. My friend lives in LA and said he doesn't even ride his bike in the city anymore because people just aren't paying attention. He said, "at least drunk drivers are trying to to drive well...", these people aren't even trying because they feel what's on their phone is more important.
Phone driving is an order of magnitude more dangerous than drink driving.
See it both ways many cyclists are selfish same as car drivers. But in country don't get much trouble to be honest just shit roads. Plus don't forget so much house building and no new roads or upgrade as car get wider same 50 years old roads . Best for me when comute in Swindon was mum on phone kid in push chair ,dogs to . Plus so many youngsters it's all about me 🤷♀️
You don’t have to be very distracted to not see a pedestrian these days. Modern cars have massively wide A pillars on the side of your wind shield that house the air bags. Wide enough to hide an adult pedestrian crossing from the left across the street. And at night if there are LED headlights in your face you can’t see pedestrians which are much darker.
I advise-Creep out on the crosswalk, wait until you see them slow down or make eye contact before crossing.
What a sensible guy - makes perfect sense. Shame he’s not in charge of making the key decisions on our (UK) cycling infrastructure
Instead of the WEF and UN driving the entire world to cram themselves into "15 minute cities" (aka prison)?
Commuting also includes a weight increase due to bags on bike or on the back of the rider. I was always amazed how free I felt when I rode on the weekends without any clothing/lunch/etc.
Nothing like the freedom of no clothing! 😅
Now where is that chamois cream!
@@calebjackson2631
It's just a big of strength training 😉
Now imagine what happens when I uncouple the trailer I use to bring my children to day care every morning. 😅
Excellent interview! One misuderstanding that many people have - including myself in the past - is that you have 'rights' when you are driving. It is viewed as an expression of personal freedom. In fact, you are a small part of a mass transportation system. Driving on public roads is not a right, it is a licensed priviledge with a clear set of conditions and obligations - e.g., speed, behaviour, distraction, sobriety. One problem is that our politicians, the police and even judges are all drivers first and foremost and inherently dont view pedestrians and cyclists as equal to motorists. A warm human body protected by 2 tonnes of steel is given priority over the same body standing in the street or on a bike. The interview nicely explores how this has happened. Its a huge task to reverse these inequities, but it should start with driver training and testing. And FFS start taxing these huge US-style pick up trucks that infest our streets.
Car commercials must include the sentence "There is no right to drive at the speed limit/buying this car does not buy you road privileges" just like tobacco manufacturers have to write smoking kills. No more fooling people into thinking they own the road if their vehicle is bigger/faster. Drivers are also victims of car lobbies. They get upset when they see they paid huge money to buy their car only to get stuck in traffic.
They have not used speed as a selling point for many years.
@@keithrobinson5752maybe not in words but car advertisement is definitely meant to make the car seem fast and speedy.
"DRIVING SERIOUSLY HARMS YOU AND OTHERS AROUND YOU!"
Yep the professor was correct, for me the main problem is that the average speed of cars, bike and pedestrians are different so if a bike is sharing with pedestrians or cars then the need to overtake pedestrians or if they share with cars then the cars need to overtake.
The overtake / passing is dangerous if not enough space. So every one needs there own space.
I wouldn't have thought a transportation historian is the hero the world needs. Also proof that the world needs ''your thing"', whatever it is.
We need more walking. They've taken that away from people in certain parts of countries and it's a disgrace. Great to hear this guy call it out.
Wow, more of Peter Norton. His message makes sense and even though it's straightforward and something us cyclists are aware of, it's how he presents it that makes it so good. Bring him to every city planning meeting.
Where can I hear more from him?
You can check the full article here 👉 gcn.eu/axJ - Should we get Peter back on for more videos? If so, what do we need to ask him?
@@gcn yes, please more videos with Peter. I would like to hear more of his research on what companies are not doing to improve a better infrastructure in our cities, or what can we do as cyclists and concerned citizens against pollution to make our governments aware of the changes needed.
So glad you’re covering this. So important
I watched loads of GCN videos and shorts, first time I've watched the show, thoroughly enjoyed it.
Yes, the Prof provides a great, common sense explanation of the problem!
He's chatting porkies. Aggressive, impatient driver behaviour is not the driver being a prick, because they really are an angel, and instead the environment and road design are to blame. What a load of bollocks. It's like saying if I happen to meet you in a quiet, dark alley at night, stab you and steal your wallet, it is the environment, the darkness and the lack of witnesses that's to blame and not me being a thug. I am not buying his story. I am a driver too and when I am in my car, I find nothing, absolutely nothing in the environment and the road design makes me think I am in any way entitled to drive like a pleb and endanger those other road users who are more vulnerable than I am.
Great analysis! Thanks
Just everyone working together to get along can actually work and I saw that as an American teenager in the mid-Seventies commuting to and from school on a 10-speed through the streets of Frankfurt, West Germany--Germany was still divided back then. It was absolutely thrilling for me to do that, a big adventure to and from school as I always rode with intent and focus and strength, too, especially in the dark with that light generator on the front tire. And okay, I should add that I was always motivated to chase mopeds, O the fun of being a teen cyclist who thought every ride was a race. And if I caught 'em, I'd always offer a cheery "Guten Tag!" and act like I was just casually riding, not dying inside from the effort. 😀
That sounds like one interesting commute! What do you think it as about those times that made the road relationships easier? 🤨
Haha nice one Rob
@@gcn I just think the bicycle as sport and transportation was held in very high regard by Germans, whether they were driving or not. Plus there were all those mopeds, mostly ridden by young adults, and I think drivers respected that younger people were doing their best to get to work or university. And many of those moped riders were women on zippy orange-and-chrome Kreidlers, so I think that helped and they certainly rode their two-wheelers well. And cyclists and moped riders all rode a clean line at the right of the lane with no drama for cars and trucks and maybe that's what made it all work, no drama from anyone, just transportation and everyone accommodated each other. And I was always a live-wire on those streets, enthused about riding in a major European city and rubbing shoulders with faster cyclists who truly motivated me to stand on the gas, an auto racing saying. And I did become fast, like one evening in winter, I needed to see Herr Mueller, a local Maico dealer, to pick up a part or something. And I didn't know how to get to his shop but I knew which city bus would take me there, so I waited for that bus and then followed and drafted it like a mad man through the rain, a couple of times almost losing it yet in my desperation somehow caught back up to it. And I was thinking, at the time, it would've been easier to look at a map first because that bus definitely took the long way to Herr Mueller's shop, lol.. But it was an adventure and remains a good memory of those times when I was crazy about bikes and motorcycles in Frankfurt. And my thumbnail is from those times, me at age 15 in early '75 on my Sting-Ray in the Drake-Edwards Housing Area.
@@DanoffRoad I'll never forget one of my first observations when I started commuting by 10-speed through the streets of Frankfurt. It was, wow, look at all these mopeds! And I couldn't catch the new ones, but the ones with dragging tailpipes gave me a chance to greet their riders if I huffed and puffed enough, lol.
what an insightful interview! I have personal anecdotes that suggest that drivers don't mind/hate mountain bikers as much as they hate road cyclists. It could be the same person riding either a mtb or a road bike. it's about competition of the road, like peter explain. Can extend the same logic to on trails, some hikers dislike mountain bikers...it again is about competition for the shared space.
Mtb on trail is fine! As long as we both respect each other's safety of course
Interesting🤔 Should we all be riding mountain bikes to keep us safer 😂
I always stop walking at a crosswalk because even though I know I have right of way, I know some idiot who isn't paying attention will run me over. I make sure they stop before I cross. Safety first. Rules second. I've seen cars overtake a car that has slowed down to allow someone to cross just because they couldn't wait. And here in NYC they don't even bother to fine them because it's "too much paperwork." Horrible.
A chap the other day was paying so little attention that when he eventually saw me about to walk onto the zebra crossing he slammed on his brakes and skidded for about 5m. If I had walked onto the crossing I would either have been hit or he would have missed me by steering around me as he slid. I never trust any car at a crossing until they have completely stopped and I can see both directions are safe. Its sad but necessary.
Plenty of cyclists also considering stopping at these an ' option '
@@keithrobinson5752 A cyclist isn't likely to have been going at nearly 40 in a 30 and killed me when their 6 foot wide 2 tonne hunk of metal smacks into me. But yes, "cyclists break the rules too" is definitely a equivalent defence for people in fast moving lumps of metal driving dangerously.
Great interview!
This kind of insights is why I love and keep following the channel
Thanks to the kind words! We'll keep the content coming 🙌 for more of this subject check out our website 👉 gcn.eu/axJ
One of the real tragedies is that tall bonnets/hoods are primarily a fashion statement. The fronts of SUVs could easily be lower, more aerodynamic and safer. Unfortunately consumers are demanding SUVs that look large and powerful.
Great episode 👍
Its a simple question of basic respect from all parties. Nobody has more right or entitlement over others, give and take...
One thing that I have noticed as a motorcyclist that used to be a bicyclist is the fact that it is close to being impossible to tell what a bicyclist intentions were at intersections. Motorcycles have brake, headlights, taillights and directionals to let other vehicles know what their intentions are. Especially directionals, people use arm signals but in low light or from a distance it is close to impossible to discern what the cyclist is doing.
There is another factor that impacts car vs bike traffic - distance / time of commute. This is especially true in the US and other large Geo countries. This has pushed air travel volumes, which means getting to and from the airport on schedule. Also, to live in an area away from congested cities means longer commutes of up to 1.5 hrs each way to the office by car, and far to long for a bike even if there was a bike path. It's a crazy world we live in.
We can fix this stuff easily, we just gotta get a lot more people watching Not Just Bikes and Strong Towns content!
In US they build parking lots instead of actually using the space and otherwise terrible zoning regulations. That inflates the distance. If designed properly then some destinations won't be that far away.
@@CommissionerManu Just remove zoning, remove urban planning, and let people build where the demand is. Nobody wants to commute 1.5 hours in the places where it's most egregious, that would be prime real estate to set up commerce to serve what are essentially supply-less villages. NIMBYism (in both the pro-car and anti-car sense) is a plague. Unless someone own the metaphorical back yard, why do they think they get a say?
PS: Urban planners rarely get held accountable for their bad decisions, because by the time the problems come to a head it's too late and the person has already moved well on. These kinds of unaccountable, unelected people should not hold so much power over everyday joes.
Even car drivers have trouble with car drivers
Although, I bet some cyclist have troubles with other cyclists.
@@DrRusty5 And don't pedestrians get in the way when you're walking somewhere in a hurry?
@@DrRusty5 To be fair, old ladies on an electric bike are a danger to everyone around, especially themselves.
Posted the following to the ice painting vid.....30 years ago I painted two frames. Can of Ale crit bike, and a Truk mtn bike (lugged and bonded). The Trek currently lives with my daughter at Ohio State University. It was raced and has been beat to hell. There is no original component on it, but those lugs are just as tight as a Brit in a vinegar bath. For this next part think old style quill stem. I made 2 so that I could hang 1 frame whilst painting the next. To hold the frame in the stand, and hit every spot, cut a length of pipe, slightly less than the I.D. of the seat post, about 10 inch/25.4 cm length. Then cut each pipe 2 inch from one end. I cut at the same bias as a quill stem. Now you will have 2 nuts that fit inside the pipes, threaded onto a steel rod, which has been fired, bent 90 degree to form a handle, fired again, toss in cold water to re-temper. The nuts are epoxied, or welded, at either end of the pipe. Violin! 😂(merican humour), you have an interior seat post clamp, clamped onto your bike stand. Quite maneuverable. I still have mine. You can use an old seat post, but you still have to cut it and all. With this method you can cover the entire frame with the paint. Hey Park, (love you folks, and the repair vids) I have no patent, but sure would love a new CF, CX bike. I'm 62 and my aluminium Fuji is beating the hell out of me. Ha, aluminium gets the final laugh! Oval tube? Get creative. Just remember for the best job you have to go inside...like, well umm, Brits are polite and all so I will leave it there. Peace!
Totally agree about commuting being fantastic training. Until a couple years ago, my commute was 30 km in, which I usually rode like a time trial to get a head start on my workday. The ride home was often longer, sometimes by an hour or more, as I liked to mix things up and was constantly finding excuses to perform some errand that would make the 30 km more like 60. Now that I am no longer doing that commute, I have less incentive and find myself making excuses as to why it's not a great day to ride, where I once applied the rule that if it's not raining or snowing in the morning, I ride. When I drive a car, I always take the shortest route, whereas on a bike, I only do so when there is a reason.
Prof. Norton has forgotten an important thing: at least here in Germany, most car drivers argue that for the reason they pay car taxes, they exclusively finance the roads, and therefore say that cyclists have no right to use "their" roads. But those guys are completely wrong: the roads are paid from the common tax revenue, NOT the specific car tax. Not long ago, a noew law has been passed that the minimum distance of cars to cyclists (when they overtake them) has to be at least 1.5 meters, but I get passed pretty much closer even by police cars, but still more and more cars leave more space than in earlier times. Anyway, one ***hole is sufficient to bring yor to hospital or even on the graveyard; in 2021, I got overtaken closely by a BMW 7... . I was so upset I showed him the middle finger. He didn't slow down or honk and continued his way, as well as I did. But when I turned around a slight right hand corner after a short steep climb, he came from the opposite direction and seemingly had not expected that I was already there, but he pulled on the other side of the road and obviously tried to ram me. I recognized that later when he was already out of sight that it was the same car, so be careful with that gesture, there might be a psychopath at the steering wheel.
The GCN 30 in 30 ride this morning was not banded, I realized that moments after the start when a huge group left me in their dust. Luckily I found a small group that was my speed and had a great ride with them. Turns out at the end it was actually set up as a race. Thanks for all the rides so far, I am really enjoying the community spirit.
There a couple of spicy ones thrown in for good measure 😉 Glad that you are enjoying the rides, we've loved riding with everyone 🙌
10/10 interview, great insights
He makes absolute sense I always feel far less aggression from drivers when on narrow streets with street furniture and pedestrians close by.
Good episode; Connor and Si make a great team.
Great episode and a great explanation on the root cause of the conflict between different users of our roads. I agree we need safe places to cycle, but this cannot be the only thing we do, we have to look at how and what we need to do to get better at sharing our limited infrastructure and stop weaponising it. That requires a change in behaviour, perception and attitude from all.
thanks! We really enjoyed listening to Peter. 🤞 some changes can happen
Aside from the main topic, this one was pretty good, more enjoyable duo than usual.
19:46 we were once doing a charity event with a group of trainers. One got a puncture (it was a wheel-on trainer), and then someone fell off into the other bikes. So not only did we have a puncture, we also had a collision.
We still raised a good sum of money though.
Manon is either a truly extraordinary actor, or a very frustrated driver. Her portrayal of an angry driver is Oscar standard - she scares me.
Connor’s comment on a treadmill “we need to make that happen .. Si” 😂 Priceless!
Caption of the week: Think I dropped something… Oh, no. It’s just the peloton
Hi Guys, happy new year.
Road rage/safety? My little brother rages at anyone blocking his way (not driving fast enough perhaps) not just cyclists so I'm not so sure about just a driver cyclist battle.
Here in the UK (I hope) you know about the latest edition of our highway code which emphasises "the hierarchy of harm" like your small car - big car - pick up etc. and also the new specification of a 1.5m separation to pass a cycle (in the 1960s it was 6 feet but got lost somewhere). Here in rural Monmouthshire I have noticed an enourmous improvement in my saftey while riding because cars hang back, don't push past. Far fewer blind bend overtakes and so on. I do wish Govmt had taken more efforts with publicity.
As personal measures I take which may help are that I soft tap into passing places or even road junctions to help the driver and I wave thanks to the driver when they are helpful too.
I'm afraid car adverts make out their cars are for racing on the roads. Its time they had to carry a health warning (like on fags in the old days) "driving cars can seriously damage other peoples health".
Motor sport has questions to answer in its presentation too. Maybe it should have a "don't try this at home kids" message
Back in the 1960s (that you referred to Connor) it was accepted that being in a car crash will kill or seriously injure. Years and years of ENCAP this and that have made it much safer for the occupants and driven the desire for ever larger vehicles (never mind battery EVs) but has not saved a single pedestrian, cyclist or motor cyclist. That bears out your stats on vehicle size and emphasizes the need for hierarchy of harm. Legislating for smaller vehicles is very complecated. Perhaps it can only done through the tax system, I don't know.
I really disagree about a totally segregated system. We will wait a long time for it and it will reinforce the drivers view of the road being reserved for motorists. In the mean time we need something to be going along with so we need to co-exist on the roads and everyone get used to it.
My conclusion is that safety progress really needs mutual respect. We can't make the other party respectful, but we can do it ourselves (both riding and driving!) and hope it catches on.
Thinking about separate cyclepaths, "saddle bag" later "sustrans" campained for The Avon Gorge Towpath and then the Bristol Bath Railway path in the 1970s so Canberra wasn't alone.
Sorry Si I've failed 30 in 30 this year. I'm typing this from my sick bed since the 6th. Never mind once I get going again I won't stop at the end of Jan.
It comes down to this: motorists think cyclists are in their way. Fix that, and nothing else motorists think about cyclists matters.
@@doug871Clothing is an excuse and ultimately cyclists aren't concerned what a driver is wearing or the colour of a vehicle. Only just recently I saw a video where a cyclist wearing hi-vis was wiped out, so even hi-vis is no guarantee an inattentive driver will see you.
@@DrRusty5 The thinking is probably "hi-viz is safety gear so they're in no danger". Like cyclists wearing helmets are likely to survive any collison, so why worry?
Whereas the thing that slows drivers down most.... are other drivers.
The video literally says the opposite. We need to fix our streets so that cars aren't the only mode of transport that is being prioritized
@@Tundramonkey5 Which would mean cyclists are no longer in their way. I've simply boiled this down to its "primal" terms. Every "fix" to making roads safe for cycling ultimately addresses the "in the way" of motorists issue. That may not be its stated aim, but it either does that, or it's ineffective.
Great info from Peter. Municipalities can use this video to try and get the funds to build cycling routes as this explains a lot.
That would be super cool 🙌 - Does you local area struggle with a lack of infrastructure?
On clipless vs flats, I love the simplicity and versatility of flats
Flats are very pure 👌 Have you given clipless a go?
@@gcn a long long time ago, when they slipped like crazy and clacked like stilettos... I'm not racing anyone, I just love riding
As a cyclist and driver the most annoying things about cyclists is when they ride several abreast when there are cars around, and/or ride in the center of the lane when there's a wide and clean shoulder or the rightmost part of the lane is in decent condition, either oblivious to, unconcerned about or in some cases intentionally and proudly slowing down car traffic because of some misplaced sense of moral superiority, basically shoving their ideological views down other peoples' throats.
I don't come across this that often, but when I do I am reminded of why drivers hate cyclists. When I ride I always ride as far to the right as possible, unless there's debris or potholes or I need to turn left, and if riding with others we go single file when there's traffic behind us. I also don't run red lights, unless there's no cars around and then I do that fake right then left then right zig zag so it looks like a right on red then a u-turn and turn. I also slow down for stop signs, because I don't want to get t-boned.
Oh, and nothing to do with cars, but another pet peeve is cyclists who keep their helmets strapped on when sitting down for a cafe or meal break, beyond a couple of minutes. Massively dorky and when done intentionally just makes you look like a self-satisfied fool. Take the damn thing off and stop preening.
Also a fun fact: people who drive electric are nicer and calmer than other drivers in most of the times.
Not true in America. Tesla drivers are #1 for accidents on the road beating the drunken hillbillies in the Dodge RAM which has held the #1 spot for decades. When I see an electric driver I get out of the way quick, much higher chance of being a high income psychopath CEO type.
Poor Connor. He's never going to live that down.
An excellent interview with Peter Norton, and thanks for addressing this topic. I feel that someone needs to make a program called 'The truth about cars', in the same way that issues like single use plastics and the climate crisis have been broadcast on mainstream TV.
Infrastructure design: I had an overnight layover at Gatwick Airport twenty years ago. The hotel was just 200 meters from the terminal, but getting past the fenced motorways on foot was impossible. I had to pay for a 30 minute bus ride to get to my hotel.
Hold on Si, you can't just casually drop in there that Alex "absolutely schooled" Olli on a TT and then not give us more. What's the story? We need some GCN GCN Racing news!
Ollie and Alex mentioned a TT race last week on the Tech show but that the results would be under wraps until a video was coming out... I haven't seen Ollie post anything to Strava, either. Which means either he was keeping it under wraps for the video or he is too embarrassed to post the results... Massive spoiler from Si!
You'll just have to wait and see 👀
I've been thinking about this more and it's so true, but doesn't actually cover the full scale of the problem. It's not just infrastructure indicating to drivers they should have priority. It's so much more; press, government, budget allocation, police priority, advertising and the media, lobbying. So much is telling people that as a driver you are more important than any other road users.
Riding back into town after a great mountain bike ride a few years ago, I decided to take a left turn to cool off at the local park. As I'm waiting in the left-turn option lane at a red light behind a car, a driver approaches from behind, honking his horn like mad and yelling, "GET OUT OF THE ROAD!" As he came to a stop, honking madly, he decided that he had to exit his vehicle to continue his tirade. (I think he assumed I would just ride away - and perhaps I should have.) Instead, I got off my bicycle and turned to face him and said, "I AM traffic!" This driver couldn't conceive of a cyclist DARING to get in HIS way and block his GOD-GIVEN lane of asphalt. To be clear, riding in this manner is not only legal and sanctioned by my vehicle code, but it's also the safest way to proceed.
If I had had to resort to physical violence to defend myself, this morAn driver would have been the first to claim, "He ATTACKED me!" He felt so threatened by one person on a 30 lb. vehicle, that he left the comfort and security of his 4,000 lb. vehicle with locking doors and a 200 hp engine! Irrational lunacy that vulnerable road users must tolerate. And these people are sanctioned by the state to operate deadly weapons, known as cars!
Well said Peter Norton!
@Caption Comp:
Pidcock: "Bloody hell, all my mates have snuck off to the cafe without telling me, again!!"
Speaking of forgetting gear, I was going a Half Ironman and saw a guy riding his bike with his wetsuit arms flapping behind him. Apparently he put his wetsuit on without shorts underneath. He had a top on and had just pulled his wetsuit down to his waist.
Speaking as someone who rides motorcycles and drives a "car with a battery" I have noticed that I'm more likely to be tolerant of cyclists and pedestrians (who seem to have become totally unconcerned with their own safety) because I have plenty of performance to not really be concerned if they delay me. It's actually the car drivers who really annoy me.
I live in NSW just outside Canberra, and from where I live I can't quite access Canberra's cycling network w/o risking my life on unsafe roads. Even though I don't often cycle on roads, I've still racked up many instances of drivers not being overly accommodating. Therefore, I have to drive into Canberra, park a few Ks from work where parking is free, then cycle in. There are heaps of excellent cycling routes, and many different ways to get to work w/o mixing with traffic. There's also a dedicated cycleway that runs parallel to a main road that leads in / out of Canberra where you can take the roadie and fly along as fast as you want w/o cars, pedestrians etc... The main obstacle you experience in Canberra is the odd snake, kangaroos, ducks, and the huge numbers of suicidal rabbits that upon hearing an oncoming cyclist, will stop nibbling on the fauna, and will hurl themselves on to the bike path directly in front of you!
If we could only have to deal with the odd 🐍🦘🦆 and 🐇 it would be a nice start! It's always interesting to hear how different cities integrate cycling infrastructure!
Jealous due to being stuck in traffic, cost, taxes. Inpatient, just angry, dislike of human life and can they take it with their box. If someone gets in their personal space. Shh they over take most of us.
Of course it all comes down to money. The automotive industry is BIG business. From the cars themselves to car repair, insurance. Not to mention all of the rehab that takes place after the accidents, or road maintenance, or the healthcare industry from people not getting enough exercise. A quick google search says just the car industry alone is worth $2.6 TRILLION annually. In comparison, the bike industry is $101 billion (I've seen articles quoting half this as well). If people switched to walking the ramifications would be insane.
Great video gents!
GCN getting into political matters? Yes, yes, and yes!! Don't force yourself to look away for the purpose of light entertainment, these things truly matter 💚
@NotJustBikes has an amazing explainer video about this "passive infrastructure" that gives motorists clue of how fast they should be driving, truly fascinating how independent that is of what speed signs are next to the road: "To be safe, the street must communicate the real level of risk to the driver. In other words, the driver must feel discomfort driving in a manner that is unsafe." Made me change my view on the road big time. (ua-cam.com/video/bglWCuCMSWc/v-deo.html)
He also made a video about the not-so-apparent risk SUV drivers get themselves into: apart from being dangerous to others, they also themselves tend to take more risks and secondly, because of their high centre of gravity, SUVs have a way worse handling, causing them to crash more easily. (ua-cam.com/video/jN7mSXMruEo/v-deo.html)
15:05 "I just love salty nuts" must surely become a GCN meme. A good counterpoint to "8 mineral waters".
2:07 reminds me of "BigDog Beta" 😂
Milton Keynes is an interesting take on this as the cycling infrastructure has been build from the start. Interestingly at direct intersections cars are always given priority.
8:35 - 'Nice' editing!
very interesting info regarding the attitude of pedestrians by Norton. not sure if it is still the norm but. Still in France no pedestrian will exercise their right to cross at a pedestrian crossing if a car is approaching, whereas as a kid i was taught and as an adult i always crossed at a pedestrian crossing with confidence that even with constant traffic the cars would stop because the pedestrian had right of way.
proud habitant of the Montpellier Metropole in the south of France where since the end of dec 2023 ALL public transport is free of charge !
Different countries have different rules and social norms, it can be very confusing 😵💫
I think he missed the culture aspect. Road rage is a bigger problem in my experience in Anglo Saxon countries than elsewhere. There’s countries where I’ve never experienced issues with drivers, because people are less judgmental, less self righteous, more cooperative. I remember giant tourist busses is Sicily negotiating single lane mountain roads with two way traffic, when meeting face to face vehicles work it out, sometimes back up, let each other pass, no one gets excited. As opposed to the us, where you can be riding alone on an empty road on a Sunday morning in a park, and some guy pulls up next to you in his pickup and starts yelling at you.
Everyone needs their own space. But cars should be the lowest priority when deciding how to divide space. We have a dual carriageway nearby with a massive wide divider in the middle on a street where people live, the inside lane just gets used for parking. If you removed two of the car lanes and the central divider, you could have a protected 2-way bike lane AND bus lanes to stop your transit getting stuck in traffic! It would make both cycling and taking the bus more appealing in one. But nobody dares take lanes from the cars!
Hate? In some cases for sure but by far more of a problem is the casual disregard a lot of motorists have for cyclists. This is seen in the close passes and dangerous overtakes by cars etc. Basically motorists in a lot of cases behave differently to cyclists than they would to a pedestrian or horse rider etc.
Of course get complete idiots on bikes as well, we've all seen the red light jumpers, riders on pavements(sidewalks) etc. However, a dangerous act by a motorist has a far more consequential potential than a cyclist.
Caption: "Mathieu...?" "...Polo!"
I love the self depreciation of your pro careers. 😎
I’m a cyclist of many years who lives and breaths everything on two wheels. I also need to drive for work. What I find annoying, is groups of road cyclists riding two, three, four wide, travelling relatively slowly across the greater portion of the road without any consideration for any faster moving traffic. Slow moving vehicles use orange flashing lights and pull over if they’re holding faster moving vehicles up. Horse riders stay in single file if they need to use the roads. Imagine meeting 20 horses and riders travelling down the road across the width of the road? They’ve developed more road sense and consideration over the years. Cyclists should do the same and single file where they’re riding on roads with faster moving traffic, not only for their own safety, but in consideration and the safety of other road users.
To me, whether driving or riding, my main annoyance that really sets me off is unpredictable behavior. Sometimes its caused by poor driving, distracted driving, or overlying courteous driving. Sometimes its infrastructure. Be predictable and traffic flows much better.
Where can we go to read or hear more from Professor Norton? He obviously knows his stuff and I'm all ears. Would love to buy him a beer and pick his brain on the subject 😁.
Hi! We're so glad that you enjoyed it! Here is a link to the full article that we wrote 👉 gcn.eu/axJ
I am full time profesional city cyclist.as i work for deliveroo and ride my road bike on free time , i noticed when i got my delivery bag on shaulders drivers are more aggressive for sure
Except Monday’s second ride. It was a race with race results at the end. I was dropped in the first five minutes. Even so, it’s handy to have a time and place I need to show up
Don't worry Connor, I also came off my bike on the trainer because my phone fell and I needed a new track!
Norton described the problems so well but i would love to hear more on the psychology. When discussing this with almost-exclusively drivers they come up with lots of excuses of why they need to drive which are pretty non-sensical. I assume this is because the real reason is ultimately the selfish 'because i want to drive' but they don't feel they can say that.
Most people are just not very self-aware or introspective, especially with things that are common or habits. If you ask someone why they, for example, drink soda it would be similar. Most people are also used to dealing with emotional-conversation that contains copious amounts of subtext daily, and aren't used to analytical discussions, especially if not prepared for it. They will start hallucinating subtext, thinking that the question(s) are actually an attack or criticism.
Ref fallingoff turbos. Mine is a neo no rocker plate so pretty stable. I had balance issues in 2020, maybe the virus. Riding on zwift through the woods nearly threw me off the bike as id become dependant on my vision for balance and the changing pitch and direction confused my head.
Oddly enough one reason for the increase in car size is the safety features, including those intended for predestinee , that are now required. 😮
Great overview of transport policy as the main talking point. Having campaigned at an EU level on this topic for a couple of decades (from the 90's to the noughties for both environmental (T&E) and traffic safety expert groups (ETSC)) its great to see the arguments that have been made for a very long time finally make it to more mainstream outlets. But like climate change, even though experts and researchers have been presenting data and science for years and years - both policy makers and the public have a long way to catch up. And as highlighted by you this catching up is stymied by vested interests. The answer? I don't think there is a simple one - but it has to be perseverance and campaigning for change.
We know how you feel Frazer, it won't happen overnight, but hopefully, infrastructure and behavioural changes can slowly improve! Thanks for campaigning!
Don't worry Connor, I have fallen off of my trainer too. I had my BMC on rollers with a fork stand, but I decided to ride in my pajamas with my fuzzy pink slippers on while watching the news. I tripped getting off and pulled the whole set up over onto myself, and my husband's set up with his vintage Colnago. Amazingly, nothing broken on myself or the bikes.
this has made Conor feel a lot better about himself!
Hahahaha! At least nobody was there to witness 🤫 We won't tell anyone if you don't!
#captioncompetition: (To the tune of Oasis):
The road season can wait
Wout's a bit second rate
on his gravel 1x
Van der Poel rides away
But Tom looked back in anger
Just for one day
Oh no, we can imagine Si singing this right now
I‘m just preparing my dad‘s old road bike for sale and I have a set of 10yo GP4000 that will not generate any friction in your pockets.
That's not Peter Norton, that's the commissioner of the Gotham City Police Department.
25:16 I thought Si might have been doing the GCN presenter self-deprecating thing when he said he can count his podium finishes on one hand. But I've done the math and can confirm that it checks out. He doesn't even need his thumb.
@cilliankellygcn .He doesn't even need his thumb.😂😂😂
The message, GCN, is not "segregation", rather equitable use and forcing drivers to acceptvthe roads are not "theirs".
Caption Competition : Tom Pidcock - I was out cycling and someone told me that one of my mud flaps had fallen off. I said I’d carry on rear guardless.(i've been selected and won THANKS GCN, Fabien Olivier de Pierre).
I'm doing the 30/30, I did it last year. Tour de Zwift is going on as well.
excellent! Hope it is going well!
#captioncompetition
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Tom: “what was that?”
Tattoo idea: an homage to Lola and Pickle!
#captioncompetition Pidcock falls for the the old “your race number’s falling off” gag once again
Drivers are privileged on the roads, in the cities. So much space is dedicated just for them. And when you're privileged any equality feels like oppression
Some states in the US have passed stop-as-yield laws where traffic lights are treated as stop signs and stop signs as yield signs.
in my country they always shout "ohhhh we pay for roadtax, its our road, our rulesss bla bla blaaa...." 😒😒😒😒
Regarding the problems in the cycling Industry, seems like UK brands are in deeper trouble than most. Does Brexit have anything to do with that? Personally I haven't ordered from Wiggle/Chain Reaction since Brexit due to higher prices in taxes and shipping. This is a shame as it has forced me to Amazon to buy hard to find parts (and sketchy quality) for my old bikes.
@GCN caption competition - Pidcock says wow am I that far ahead?!? 😂❤🎉
Where I live in Belgium (Flanders) the main problem to me seems to be the bad infrastructure. It is almost never is suitable for riding a race bike (city bike is a different discussion I believe). Bike lanes are often too small and too degraded or old to ride safely. There's also a lack of continuity. A bike lane can simply stop at the municipality borders f.e. Even new bike lanes are often made of the cheapest concrete slabs (famous in the races, but very uncomfortable to ride on). This makes cyclist more prone to ride on the road, for safety reasons, comfort, and decreasing wear on the material. This of course leads to friction with motorists. And understandably so. They see a bike lane not being used.
When I go cycling in the Walloon region or Luxembourg, where there's no cycling infrastructure. I very rarely come in to conflict with cars.
When I go cycling in the Netherlands, where there might be the best cycling infrastructure in the world. I can't remember a conflict either.
I do believe minds are slowly changing away from this car-centric view though. But it all starts with a good and safe infrastructure.
#captioncompetition Pidcock finally loses the dog after the dog motivates him to the finish line.
#CaptionCompetition “Holy smokes, these RedBull helmets DO give you wings. I can’t even see them anymore”