Це відео не доступне.
Перепрошуємо.
ECM speed control repair
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 сер 2024
- An addition to ECM motor construction and troubleshoot showing a repair that can be done to the ECM end bell as shown by "local701". Check out his video.
This video is part of the heating and cooling series of training videos made to accompany my websites: www.graycoolingman.com and www.grayfurnaceman.com to pass on what I have learned in many years of service and repair. If you have suggestions or comments they are welcome.
If you are a homeowner looking to repair your own appliance, understand that the voltages can be lethal, the fuels are highly flammable and high pressures are used. Know your limits.
You da man! I had already narrowed the problem down to the motor and was shocked to find the cost of a replacement unit. With your guidance, I checked the thermistor in my ECM and sure enough the resistance (in circuit) was 3.4 Mohms as opposed to the 1 ohm it should be. There was also some discoloration of the conformal coating on the underside of the board (the board itself was fine) and upon closer inspection some degradation of the coating on the thermistor itself. Since it was already late Friday, I had to wait until this morning to visit our local electronic supply store where I got a replacement for $10. Soldered the new one in and sprayed some conformal coating over the back once more (I had some from an earlier repair to another appliance). The system is now back up and running perfectly. Thanks a lot!
A big THANK YOU in behalf of our neighbors and myself. Your tip not only saved big $$$ but also enabled me to get the neighbors furnace operating again before the plumbing froze and burst. Both of our houses have GE ECM 2.3 1 HP motor controllers. Left over from my own outage in 2019, I had a spare Ametherm SL32 thermistor on hand when the snow storm hit March 24th, 2023.
Glad I could help.
GFM
You saved me, at the very least $500 plus labor, and as much as $6000 for a new furnace, plus installation. Thank you kind person. I understand everyone has to make a living, but technicians can be less than honest and try to sell a new furnace. The experience of the final repair is interesting--- but most people do not read past the first sentence. However, if they read the last sentence, they may save even more money. Regardless, for you and others who helped with a simple cheap solution to a major problem-- a much appreciated THANK YOU so very very much. The rest of the story is that I found the thermistor for as little as $2 (Mouser) but it would not get to me for three days. There is no local parts place that had it. It is 0 degrees F outside so I tried calling Ametherm directly. Ametherm's very helpful Asley asked if I would pay overnight shipping and of course, I said yes. The parts will arrive overnight on Saturday, gratuitous Ametherm. This experience absolutely helps me get back faith in my fellow human beings. Please be safe, remember what comes around-goes around, and Please give forward. Thank you so very much!
UA-cam WTF Moment Wow. I guess all I can say is you are welcome.
GFM
For the thermistor, you can use digikey pn# 570-1060-ND. the 1R036. This will handle the 1R020 and 1R030 too. Or the 570-1059-ND which is the 1R030 and will handle the 30 or 20 as well. The R36 should handle 1 1/4 hp, the 30 for 1 hp and the 20 for 3/4 hp motors or the 36 and cover all basis. You can start high and go with lower, not the other way around. hope this helps..
I believe Trane did a study on this problem and found that in almost all cases the problem is with not enough air flow through the return and across the motor. The ECM's need to keep a lot of air moving across the motor to keep from getting to hot. If your having a problem with bad ECM's you most likely do not have enough return air i.e. plugged filters or inadequately sized ducting.
'fan on' voltage to board was good... pin 1 to 13 test for 'fan on' at the motor end of the harness was also good... took motor out and thermistor crumbled when i touched it... A1 electronics in Toronto soldered a new one in for 20 bucks... ran home... put everything back together and called off the 180 dollar service call... along with the thousand bucks he might have dinged me for a perfectly good motor... thank you so much for posting this... equipment is a york TM9V080B12MP11... the internet is something else! Now back to renovating!!!
+John Price Glad it helped.
GFM
this thread saved me huge money, this is why i always try and fix shit myself
Very good info. I checked out the part #s and agree they will work. I believe the end bell dealer cost to be about $200 to 250. They are available separately. I have never seen a motor fail, probably because the start torque is so low. I will put the parts on the vid. Thanks for the comment.
GFM
Thanks for your upload, my three orange resistors fell off and I wasn't sure how they went back on.
The 1/2hp and 3/4hp you can replace it with 1 ohm 20A thermister such as Ametherm SL22 1R020 and the 1HP motors the Ametherm SL32 1R030. They are Inrush Current Protectors. They wear on the components in the ECM. I would recommend you not jump or tie the legs together unless an absolute emergency as the surge from the capacitors could toast the ECM and then instead of a $2.50 part you're looking at $300-$400 if you can even find the ECM seperate. If not, $1000 for the motor.
You saved me $3,000!! I replaced this thermistor for a few bucks after the furnace tech quoted me $3K installed for a new ECM...crazy! Thanks for sharing.
Did it work?
How is motor working now?
@@awaranyc1 yes, it has been working great for over 2 years since the fix.
Sorry about the delay in answering. I looked at one of these boards to see how its wired. The thermister appears to wired into the AC input just before the rectifier. There are are 4, 1200 microfarad caps and I suppose they could require a limiter on inrush. However, I have seen parts like this used for limiting power surges before. I guess the jury is still out on this one. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
GFM
A/C guy just quoted me $1200 to replace the ECM or variable speed module. While he was troubleshooting I found your video. Paid the service charge and sent him on his way. 5 minutes later I had the module out and the thermistor is blown just like in your video. You just saved me another $1100. Amazon has small kits for this repair for under $30 also. All you need is a soldering iron, resin core solder and a little know how. Thank you.
Roberto Eaton Its good to win sometimes.
GFM
grayfurnaceman Update: Thermistor arrived today. Blower fan is now working.
Thanks so much. Have the same type of motor, a GE one, in my Amana/Goodman high efficiency. Took off the end bell and sure enough, same problem. Ordered the part on Amazon. Desoldered it and soldered the new on in and VOILA, fixed!!! If you're not handy, find someone to check this for you and do it for you before you spend $500 on a new end bell or worse, $1000 or more on a new motor. The part is $13 or even less. My house is cooling down again and I'm a hero. thanks again.
Welcome
GFM
The way I look at it, try to get them through the problem for a reasonable time and price. As long as the customer knows what he is getting, and has the choice, you have done well. Thanks for the comment.
GFM
Awesome, glad you figured this out. saved a ton. I spent $20 total incl the soldering kit.
Glad you got it done.
GFM
I have been getting some ECM motors from a scrap yard and all of the motor parts have been good but not the control as you discovered .
I`m not good at circuit boards but have success in fixing componets like you see that failed by burnt or blown capacitors. I fixed a older reel to to reel tape deck amplifier that way. The IC circuit boards are throw away always
Great video. Thank you. I just saved myself $4000. The blower motor stopped, and the heating tech said it was $2000 for a motor or $4000 for a new furnace. We looked inside the end bell yesterday and couldn't see a problem BUT when I looked today, there was a black spot on the heat sink near the thermistor, and the thermistor body looked slightly cracked.
After clipping out the old one, it measured "open" with a meter. I couldn't get the proper SL22 1R020. I bought a replacement SL32 2R025 (2 ohm, 25 Amp) for $10, soldered it in, and it works perfectly.
This thermistor is a current inrush limiter, so it helps restrict the motor during startup so it starts slow. The excess current goes to heat, so it probably heats up every start. After 7 years, it quit.
kitchencone Sounds like good work to me. Congrats
GFM
grayfurnaceman Only thing not normal is I have a CFM LED on my universal replacement control board. It used to flash in a pattern, one flash for each 100 CFM. Now it just lights steady. Do you know how the CFM LED gets its signal, and where I should look to troubleshoot?
@@grayfurnaceman You have saved me so much money over the years. The first fix (above) was 2015. Fixed it again (same thing) in 2017 with a $6 part, and left the leads long to maybe shed some heat. Had to fix it again this morning (2022) with one of the spares I kept tucked away on the corner of my desk. This time I soldered some extra copper arms onto the leads, sticking out in the air, to act as cooling fins and maybe prolong the life of this obviously weak component!
If the bearings are free, (blower turns easily) you can rule out bearings. What this sounds like is the motor end bell has failed. The repair I have listed here is probably not the problem because the motor does nothing at all. I guess your best bet is the warranty replacement. Hope this helps.
GFM
Using a Vacuum pump with a 1/4" flare liquid line dryer and manifold/gauge set makes a great solder sucker for circuit board repairs/component replacement. Heating the solder and using a access port will remove the solder and expose the pin holes of the board and makes a clean repair....
Yes, I think Johnstone carries it. Thanks for the thought.
GFM
Meant to also say I love your videos, they are very educational.
The part is similar to the part in a surge strip. It is sold in HVAC stores. Replacement time should be less than 1hr. As with all parts, labor and materials should be guaranteed 1yr. The part can fail with a hi voltage spike of long duration but usually does not for several years. The decision to replace the part or the end bell depends on the customer needs. The high expense of the end bell begs for a cheaper, if not perfect fix. Thanks for the thoughts.
GFM
Update #2, Thanks to GFM. The air fan and Furnace are working like new. I may need to replace the Combustion chamber exhaust fan, it sounds a little noisy.
Cool idea. Using the permanent magnets in the rotor. The only problem I could see is controlling output.
GFM
Just an observation that the controller board in the video uses high quality electrolytic capacitors made by Nichicon rated at 105 deg C
Recapped my Marantz 2500 receiver with them. Sounds awesome.
Thank you. I have been trying to figure out why the fan was not working. Spins find.
I watched this video because my blower was not turning on. I pulled off module and found the thermistor to be bad. I removed the bad thermistor and solder the new one in, found one online for about $10 on amazon. It worked for one month and now the blower just twitches and not sure where to go now. I was a hero for about a month...
The module has probably failed. The motor is probably ok, so you can just buy the end bell.
GFM
I've replaced hundreds of these modules usually doing the job properly and replacing the motor also. Never seen one with a bad thermistor. Even if the thermistor is bad theres a reason for it. Replacing the thermistor isn't a long term fix. All this video is good for is making the customer feel like they got screwed over by buying a new motor/module.
+maglight2006 I could not disagree more. These thermistors are there to absorb line spikes. A large spike will break the thermistor. Other problems with the end bells usually involve mosfet failure and will not be repaired by replacing the thermistor. I have never seen a motor failure as the start torque is so low that the windings are not badly stressed.
GFM
+grayfurnaceman Could not disagree more about what?
You've never seen a motor failure? I've seen them so bad it looked like they caught fire, not just windings burned but all the plastic inside (yes the motor, not the module), I've seen bad bearings make the module try and try to ramp the motor up until the windings fry. I've seen magnets break loose from the rotor.
You might fix something like this and leave being the super hero, but I guarantee it won't last.
i agree, been to the middle east and antarctica, and most of the time its just what you said, other times dead out of the box
I worked for a company that charges WAY TOO MUCH... and their lazy, inexperienced techs would write up not only an endbell ... but insist the whole control in the furnace be replaced... sometimes even all the wiring and harnesses. talk about ripping people off. happy to be on my own.
You can buy a repair kit that has that part in it along with a motor protector harness to run in series with the molex plug to protect the motor after you solder in the replacement part.
your video helped out big time, I took off my module and the thermistor was burnt up , I need a SL22, 1R020 thermistor would you happen to know where I can get one of these , thank you sir , William
There maker on the motor is Gentek, Used in ICP brand units, also used in carrier, and Lennox. but the bury the board in a black goup, i made a video a while back where a made a old non warranty motor without the module into a generator, quite a strong generator too, if you use all three phases with rectifiers on each phase .
The problem with using an ECM motor to "fix" a ductwork problem is they can only do so much and if they are always speeding up abnormally, they will fail. High static, either on the return or supply has really the same effect. Hope this helps.
GFM
I have not seen any that you had to buy the whole motor. Are yours GE or Emerson? Trane was programming the end bells for your furnace last I knew. Also note the comment below about the thermister.
I used to work for a company that installed thousands of V.S. furnaces. I cant tell you how many of those end bells. When we would find them bad we would tie the two legs together till we could get back with another end bell. Got me out of a many of jam's on after hour calls.
What would cause of intermittent work on ECM motors? Is there thermal protector in these things? I checked the blower wheel turns freely so the bearings must be good...Any idea?
Hey GRM, Received the Thermistor from Ametherm this Saturday morning overnight air. Please tell me if the white plastic standoff rabbit ear retainer which holds the the circuit board (CB) in place is difficult to release? I am having trouble getting it to break free from the CB. The two screws are removed and the CB is loose but will not totally come out of the housing. I do not want to break the Circuit Board with excess pressure on the CB from the standoff. I looked at the underside with an endoscope but can not tell if there is something else holding that white standoff clip in place. p.s. Ametherm sent me 14 each of the SL32, if anyone needs one. Thanks.
Man thats nice without all the black goup they put on the X13. would love to start repairing them, could probly make a small fortune. with just the company i work for. seem the newer x13's only last a couple of years. And you cant just buy the back, you have to buy the whole motor. great video will have to do more inspections on the x13 now.
My ECM142R fan jerks a little bit at start, studders slowly about 1/4 turn then stops. Would it move at all if problem was the thermistor? Fan spins freely by hand. It is on a Trane heat pump.
Well, on the ECM142R they now have a 1cm thick rubber coating over the circuit board and same on the back to glue it onto the cover. I guess they really want customers
to buy a new motor instead of repairing!!! With a lot of patience, one get get through the foam rubber coating
If it moves at all, the thermistor is not the problem.
GFM
inrush current limiter thanks to mr. Nathan
I'm showing different ohm values on the three wires 3.5 on two and 7.0 on other so I suppose it would be my motor.
They should give you the Nobel peace prize for this video.
Yeah, I think so too. lol
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman The local Lennox guy quoted me over 1200 bucks for the replacement motor and module for my furnace. I ordered the thermistor for 4 bucks on Amazon. You just saved me 1200 bucks. Thanks a lot. Hope you are making money with your videos here on UA-cam.
Welcome. I am doing fine.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman Hey just a followup, This motor works great after I soldered the thermistor in but i notice the motor only seems to run one speed. It seems it use to ramp up before full balls sometimes when it needed to.
The bell could be failing.
GFM
I have a similar GE ECM module off 1 iHP motor. I was wondering is you have knowledge of how to obtain other replacement parts. In particular, the three small blue disc capacitors. Thanks
Those capacitors are 1000PF and are available from Mouser.
GFM
exactly what happened to mine, 1053.00$ later, I am going to replace that part and test it, if that is all that's wrong with it at least I will have a spare. I had no furnace for 4 full days when its 20 degrees C below zero sucks
Yeah it does.
GFM
That is correct. Johnstone lists the part. Sorry about the long wait, you were in the spam.
GFM
Sometimes when the tech does not know how something works, he changes more than necessary. Some good training could help.
GFM
I have a variable speed blower motor on my AC unit came home one night blower motor was not running took the covers off and motor was just rocking back and forth not turning all the way over will be pulling motor apart just not sure what to look for
You probably have a failed motor end bell.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman got a replacement motor and bell reinstalled the unit and it does work . Just seems like it not blowing out the amount of air that it used to and the place I got the motor from programmed it to match the old one that I took out ?
If the furnace has a secondary heat exchanger, It may be plugged. Remove the fan and you can see it above.
GFM
I've heard that Zebra Industries makes repair kits for the ECM motors.
Love your videos I bought a new motor for mine but motor comes on but furnace error 44 motor out of range furnace repair guy say needs to be programmed for my furnace any ideas
Get it programmed.
GFM
These motors has been a problem for my company I work for, mainly due too high static press. On the return, guys just replace the power heads. The question is will that be the same result with high static, on the return?
Great info Thanks!. Now you need to help me figure out how "Twining" kits (on ICP) new to the trade...I have one that's giving me fits, showing 10 code (revise polarity) so...just an "in general" video would be awesome!
Update, got the CB loose by using a paint can opener. I slipped the paint can opener on the back side of the CB, caught the 90 degree lip next to the standoff and pulled gently but firmly. Next task is to not lift the CB trace while removing the Thermistor. Wish me luck
UA-cam WTF Moment When I have done them, I just cut off the thermistor and soldered the new one to the pigtails.
GFM
I have been reading a lot of these posts and they are educating me. I am not a HVAC person, but a DIY. I am unclear about the motor, motor controls and the outside pc board do. If I did, the following would not be a question. But, I have a question on a carrier ac unit. The blower motor only operates at a very low speed therefore not providing sufficient air flow. Is this likely a problem with the control board on the end of the motor (motor is a 1/3 hp ecm by REGAL BELOIT , HD42RE232) or the control unit on the furnace wall? Any help would be greatly appreciated. It is hot here in Texas!
I may not be of much help here. These motors usually run or don't. Slow running is not common. You can try being sure the supply voltage is normal.
GFM
Thanks grayfurnaceman. I am reading alot and your videos help me to understand more. I have checked the phases, windings, and the checked good. I checked across the thermistor in the end of the motor. It showed open, however, i am using a cheap dvm. The large input to the furnace gets very cold. The A frame gets cold. However, the air voming out of the ducts is warm. The ac unit has never had anyone work on it other than add freon. So i am trying to understand how the system operates in detail. I have electronic, mechanical experience and am not afraid to tackle most situatios. Thank you again for a rapid response.
Not true. My fan also ran at low speed due to a bad ECM control module. The difference between my control module and this video is that the thermistor is fine (has continuity) so something else is wrong. As expensive as this part is (and it looks relatively simple), and as short as the lifespan (~7 years per my technician), I am surprised that nobody refurbishes this part.
My thermistor is burnt up. Do you pull the old one out, or do you heat the solder on the old one so it pulls out smoothly, put the new leads all the way through and solder onto the back; or do you clip the old leads and solder the new one onto the old leads? Thanks in advance!
I have done it the easy way. I clip the leads.
GFM
Heat the solder pull out the old slide in the new one making sure it faces the same way Heat the solder to slide it in if it wont fit the hole & add a bit more solder
Stephen Baker
Would it be safe to say that if the thermister is bad then the motor would not be quivering?
Stephen Baker The quivering on startup is normal for an ECM
GFM
Sorry, I did not phrase my question very well. If the circuit is completely interrupted, as it would be if the thermistor catastrophically failed creating an open in the circuit , it seems like the motor would not quiver. Could the quiver be a indication the there is some other problem in the ECM circuit other than the thermistor?
If the thermistor has failed, there will be no operation at all. If it quivers but does not start, there is a problem in the ECM electronics.
GFM
When the blower is ready to come on, the whole motor will vibrate and not spin. As soon as you give the fan a little nudge, the fan will start spinning and everything is normal. Is this the ecm or something else?
My thoughts are the ECM has failed.
GFM
Thank you!
What it does is to limit the inrush when the power is first turned on. Because there are capacitors, they draw a huge spike on application of power, not motor startup. So furnaces that are powered down and up a lot are likely to stress this part, not motor starts.
You always have awesome videos. Question though, is it a thermistor or a MOV Metal oxide varistor?
With a little more research I think I've answered my own question. It seems the MOV is dependent only on voltage and used for surge suppression.
Good job buddy, one more video towards taking away a job from someone in the trade.
do good work, then
Had like 100 units the ECM dead, none of the problem is the thermistor related.
I wanted to see if the thermistor was bad so I could replace it.
Just remove the thermistor and jumper it out. If the motor starts, it has failed.
GFM
I have a GE X13 1/2 HP. how do you remove the thick rubber thats around the board?
Good luck at that. Its made so you can't fix it except for the thermistor.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman when you pull the board out to access the rear of the board..does that not separate all of the components that are trapped in the black matt? when you repair the thermsistor and put the unit together do those contacts 'make contact' again?
@@smally2187 First, don't remove the board. Just cut the wires to the thermistor close to the component. The replacement thermistor is then soldered to those wires.
GFM
that's what I'm gonna start doing for my costumers
The thermistor is a power surge suppressing device.
George W Absolutely right.
GFM
Sorry, but you are mistaken about it being a power surge suppressing device; what you are describing is a varistor, common in power strips. As used in the ECM, the thermistor is being used as an Inrush Current Limiter. It is an NTC (negative temperature coefficient) type thermistor. Quoting Wikipedia "With NTC thermistors, resistance decreases as temperature rises. An NTC is commonly used as a temperature sensor, or in series with a circuit as an inrush current limiter."
I found the thermistor problem 3 years ago but only fix it for short term, I wonder why the manufacture can not solve the problem on the design level.
Beats me.
GFM
MONEY..................................
What is the part number and where can I get it please?
I just did a video on the part that should help. ua-cam.com/video/XfGHC1O9ryk/v-deo.html
GFM
Is it safe to bypass the thermistor temporarily while I await parts?
You can. If there is a spike or surge during the time it is bypassed, you could have a failure in the electronics.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman Thank you, I got away with bypassing it short term, the new part came in and I assume its a 30amp and old one was 20 (size difference)
@@mikec1955 Sounds good to me.
GFM
@@grayfurnaceman One last question, after only replacing the thermistor, and installing a new filter, what could cause an air whistle to develop? Is it possible it spins faster now?
@@mikec1955 The whistle is a sign of excessive negative pressure in the return. Check for restrictions.
GFM
one last thing furnaceman, I have a general electric motor,module 1/2 HP but I found out the one I need for my module is the SL22, 1R020 I hope that is right don't want to put in the wrong part, but would you happen to know where I can get this thermistor I need ,many,many thanks to you sir ,William
Some of the HVAC parts houses carry them. Also Digikey or Mouser have them. Hope this helps.
GFM
all man big time ,all the places my wife called, were calling back and I was asking them where I can get the SL22 1R020 for the module they all were telling me they would sell me the module for $700.00 plus installation, they said itll run about a $1000.00 to get this job done, i twisted the 2 wires together its running ok,but for how long can i let it go like this? will it cause more damage do you know? thanks GFM
That will work. The thermistor is there to absorb spikes and surges in the power so it may fail in the future. The part is electronic and can be purchased from the 2 sources i quoted.
GFM
right on G.F.M. I ordered 3 SL22,s today from digi key they should be here in about 3 to 4 days they said, then all ihave to do is solder one in and that should do it im hoping, never done hvac work before in my life,im a youtube U graduate, ha but it is saving me around a $1000.00 so im kinda proud of myself , very greatful for your video sir , keep em commin many,many thanks ,sincerely,William
Hope it works. Welcome
GFM
You talked about how to replace the part and fix, but didn't day anything about what caused that part burn !!!? and which one is more expensive? 1) labor or 2) part .
How long would you warranty that part for your customer ?
Be Smart ,Be Safe. and don't play with your reputation.
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!! The thermistor is used to limit inrush current to the capacitors. Nice try though.......
That's not a thermistor, those are used for measuring temperature.
It is a thermistor. This type of thermistor is used in series with the power lead and with higher amp draw of an overload the thermistor warms and increases its resistance which effectively opens the circuit. This type of thermistor is commonly used as an overload protection for power strips.
GFM
Well in the UK those types of devices are known as inrush current limiters, an ICL.
It is, I've been replacing them for awhile, make sure you watch youtube uk videos only so you wont get confused with the ones making shit work
Tyrone Nelson a inrush current limiter is a thermistor just as the gentleman said. As the temperature increases the resistance increases(positive coefficient Thermistor) as a result limiting the current.Hence inrush current limiter.
Actually it's more likely a Varistor or more commonly a (MOV) Metal-Oxide Varistor. But you're basically correct in it's operation. See the wiki page on MOVs to learn more - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varistor
I repair these all the time. I can fix yours for cheap....$35!!!! I carry replacement thermistor!
pointedspider Sounds good to me.GFM
Email sports_fanatic81@comcast.net
pointedspider Hi I have one for repair and am sending a email. It is a GE ecm 142 for a trane 1/3 hp condenser fan in my trane xl1400. It has judging by the burn the same issue. Not the same exact module my thermistor is more rectangle but I do not see markings on it.
Wow, what happened to cause that attitude?
GFM
Maybe he is going through manopause
If the manufacturer does not care about saving your customers money why should you. How many customers showed up at your door to give you money when you missed two weeks of work from knee surgery. My guess is zero. Make money while you can because one day you will be to old to do your job and know one will care less ab