The ECM motor construction and troubleshoot
Вставка
- Опубліковано 17 кві 2012
- The ECM motor is disassembled and all parts shown. Overview of the electronics in the end bell. Troubleshoot of end bell and motor are covered.
This video is part of the heating and cooling series of training videos made to accompany my websites: www.graycoolingman.com and www.grayfurnaceman.com to pass on what I have learned in many years of service and repair. If you have suggestions or comments they are welcome.
If you are a homeowner looking to repair your own appliance, understand that the voltages can be lethal, the fuels are highly flammable and high pressures are used. Know your limits. - Навчання та стиль
The ECMs are used to increase the efficiency of newer equipment to raise the SEER rating. Many of the newer furnaces and air conditioners use the ECMs. To tell the truth, the ECMs don't save much money, as they fail about when they have saved as much as they cost. But, as you can see, the end bells are repairable. Hope this helps.
GFM
Thank you SO MUCH for your video. My Brother owns a large HVAC Company, and refuses to help me. With your & other videos, you've helped me save my furnace!
Nice presentation. I really had no clue on the operation or the troubleshooting of the ECM Motor. I never heard of 3 phase DC either! Learned a lot on this one. I am going through all the videos on your channel that pertain to my job & the equipment I work on. The knowledge I'm picking up by watching your videos is going to be putting a lot of money in my pocket in the future! Thanks Grayfurnanceman!
Welcome
GFM
Thank you for getting me started on fixing this problem! It turned out that all I had to do was replace a $9 thermistor but you got me started diagnosing the problem. Thanks!
Welcome
GFM
Another great video. My refrigerator compressor is also use this type of motor except that the controller circuit is on a separate controller board. Temperature is the biggest enemy for these motors, causing MOSFET or electrolytic capacitors to fail.
To the point, and keeping it simple!! GREAT instructional video!
You are very correct when you say the motors rarely are the problem and the end bell is where the failure usually is. Out of about fifty or so I have come across, only two motors were bad. The rest was just an end bell replacement and it was up and running. Of the two that had bad motors, both of them was just one of the bearing assemblies was shot. I could of just replaced the bearing but in the summer in Az. it gets quite rushed to get the next customer up and running. It was faster and easier to just put a new motor in and go to the next unlucky homeowner. Thanks for showing this on your video. I found it very informational and enjoyed watching it. Cheers
skyym3 what causes the end bell to fail
@@rtd2348 GFM mentions the MOSFETs that face the heat sink and Thermistors are common failure points.
Hi GFM,
Thanks for this great video! I just got this section in the reading material and this video really helped out allot. HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
Excellent video, G-Man! You're a natural teacher. Every time I watch one of your videos, whether it's about gas fired equipment or AC units, you're able to break things down and make the subject matter very understandable. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for the support.
GFM
+grayfurnaceman taught me alot thanks.
I had a us motor class yesterday on ecm motors the rep said the ecm motors used to fail alot from condensation in the module thus making the modules now coated with the epoxy on it. Thanks for your videos!
Said the $ale$ rep? The second inch deep of epoxy was for what now? The Right to repair is the challenge maybe?
When I got into the biz about $150 bought my tools. Now $1500 gets you started. Even including inflation it is necessary to have more and higher quality tools to work on today's equipment. Thanks for the comment. GFM
Excellent video GFM. you're very knowledgeable man.
The tesla500 ECM vid is an excellent video!! I had never thought that a shorted winding could cause the same symptoms as a bad bearing. Thanks for the comment. Merry Christmas
GFM
Daryl Brinkley - Your video was very helpful for me and very easy to understand Thank You
Welcome
GFM
Absolutely. You will still have to start it manually. Thanks for the comment.
GFM
If the motor stutters under power but does not start, there is a problem in the electronics in the end bell. If there is resistance to turning when the power is off the bearings have failed Most failures are in the electronics. The end bell can be replaced or repaired if you have the ability. Check out the video at ECM speed control repair
When i got started it did'nt cost much but over the yrs i have spent a lot,buying for 410-a was alot,this yr,ive not been working i hit ebay wide open and spent a lot of money and not sure if i will get to use them,docs are trying everything,no good news yet,i miss it bad,im trying not to give up,its getting hard but still hanging in there for now,the vids on here help me a bunch,i got some new toys if i do get to go back,cant wait to try them out,thanks a lot for the vids,keep em coming!!!!!
I am very lucky to have your technical help for my trade . God bless you .
Thanks for the support.
GFM
Cool video, thanks a million.
These Electronically controlled motors have shown up in all applications
these days .First thing I`ve disassembled that has these motors in was a
VCR that drove the capstan and the spinning head that was in 1987 then seen them in computer fans like the one you shown
If hooked up to 60 HZ ac the 2 pole unit works as a synchronous motor running at 3600 RPM as in a plug in electric clock
I don't doubt that. Capacitors that originally would operate 60,000 hours now fail at less than 20,000. I am sure you can expect lower quality in newer ECMs. Thanks for the comment.
GFM
Nice explained video.
As in many other energy saving devices, they save energy but do not save money. The increased cost of the product mostly will eliminate all cost savings. I will say that the true ECM motors seem to last longer than the X13 motors. I have not had too many problems with the X13s but others I know have many. Unfortunately, they will probably change the motors so that the testers will not work before we have paid for them. So much for grumbling, it is the world we work in. Thanks
GFM
Thank you so much 👍👍
yes the world we work in is all about the money but we still have to work if we want to live in it. but if i can afford it and it make my job easyer i will buy it. i also bought several tools to take it to the next level of repair,the sman3 is 1 of my best investments.thanks for all the gas furn. videos,they help me a lot!!
always interesting ...
My very first encounter with these motors was with a mushroom-style downblast exhaust fan on a high rise residential job. I started the fan on its toggle switch and hearing how slow and soft the fan sounded on startup I honestly thought there was something wrong with the fan or the voltage supply was incorrect. Upon taking off the lid on the fan, I see a small soda can - sized motor. I then realized its an ECM motor. Since then, every job I have come across has started using these motors. The only equipment I haven't seen these used yet is on Cooling Tower fans and hydronic pumps.
Good Information, Thanks GFM, Hopefully someone will make a tester for theses bell ends to have in the van, like a capacitor tester if we are going to see a lot more of them. Sounds just like inverter technology as in them ductless compressors must really save energy or manufacturers would not bother. BTW; To get a rebate in Ma. the new furnace has to have an ECM, I assume ... because you'ld be now saving electricity and gas
well done
the motor is controlled by pulse width modulation off the dc buss just like a vfd does;
the mosfets control the pulses, so it is indeed a 3 phase dc motor
Chris Bennett You got it!
GFM
Trane distributors have a tester for their ECM end bells. Unfortunately, their reliability has not been really good. They do save energy.
GFM
that's some good info GFM thanks
+Rodney Thornhill Welcome
GFM
Thanks Now I understand it better.
good work
I changed (swapped) the ecm module on a X13 motor and it fixed the problem
Andy Z In a comment on this thread tge uploader of this video says you can replace the end cap on all but the x13.... 🤷🏻♂️. I have an x13 as well and it has been swapped too
i have 2 X13 motors here that the magnets came loose on 1 and bearing locked on the other,i have the zebra vz-7 to check ecm motors great tool but it will cost ya to buy one but it does a great job and this is what hvac is coming to so i invested in it,great investment,you have to buy the extra harness to ck the x13 the evap. and cond. use different harness thats were they get ya everything is about the money these days,know what i mean,thanks for the video
thank for this
good video...
Thanks for the support. I will be having more on these motors soon.
GFM
thank you very much
Welcome
GFM
it goes from A/C to D/C back to A/C for better control and cleaner power.
100 years old technology. This is just off the shelf 3-phase AC induction motor hooked up to Variable Frequency inverter drive (VFD) which use DC pulse width modulation to drive it. The same tech we use for pool pumps since early 2000's in compact for factor. Good technology, 3-phase is the only correct way to drive induction motors, not single phase capacitor crap.
Same thing I said it has a built in vfd
Great video. Only issues we have found is that you have to make sure the static pressure/airflow have to be right.
Using a variable speed blower to correct ductwork problems is never going to work. As you and I have seen.
GFM
GFM, Genteq says that the epoxy in the module is to protect it from water damage. Although it keeps curious folks from digging into their equipment too ;-)
Brian Mahoney It actually does help. When the electronics were open, there was a lot of water damage from frozen coils. Also the most common part failure on them, the thermistor, is still accessible.
GFM
Unless it's just a furnace. It stop people from fixing it for 10 bucks
Thanx GFM
Some of the end bells can be tested by the distributor. Hope this helps.
GFM
Good video
Sorry, your comment was in spam. The windings are 3 phase DC with a perm magnet rotor. The 3 wires being checked are the windings of the DC field. AC goes into the end bell, pulsed DC comes out to the 3 wires. I hope this explains. Let me know if it does not.
GFM
what i hear the more is the price to replace them ! i am retired long time now but i remember 900 bucks was the price at one time ? i would install a relay and use the old style motor because of cost for the customer ,,,,now in 2019 just watching vids i dont know how its done now days ? ,,,,nice job on the vid
bug Den these cost less than $150 now...
I was a VCR tech for over 20 years , an ECM motor is very much like a drum motor in a VCR just a lot larger .
Probably true. The ECM motor was developed for common use in the HVAC industry about 15 years ago. In the commercial/industrial motor industry, the freq drive motor is almost always specified to adapt the speed to the load. Thanks for the thoughts.
GFM
Thanks
Welcome
GFM
The bridge rectifier is also replaceable. I stepped up max voltage on the one I ordered for a little more longevity. My thermistor was was shot, infinite ohms. So I figured it's best to replace them both and beef up the board with some extra wire when I solder them in. Putting a bigger heat sink and some thermal paste may be a route I go as well.
Good thoughts.
GFM
Tell me more about the thermistor or heat sink on the back of the motor. Where and how to replace it . Thanks
You might look at Zebra instruments. Johnstone supply also has some tools for testing. No endorsement here just availability. I believe GE also makes a tester. Be sure to check out the link in the vid to the thermister repair. Most failures are from this part. Hope this helps.
GFM
If the motor feels like it's a servo motor, ie has notches as it turns you have a short in the windings. Not as scary an issue as it sounds. I opened the case and found a burned spot on two wires as they run around the top to each coil. Carefully separated them and wrapped a bit of elect tape. All fixed for pennies instead of $700.
Good thoughts.
GFM
This one is 1 hp. However, it is used at lower hp in many applications.
I can't say about availability outside the US. I don't see any reason it should not be. The one I show is GE. Emerson has one also.
The green disc MOV is what I usually see going out and after a bad storm as well. There is now an inline MOV which I guess is rated just below the internal one but not sure.
They do run on less power due to the fact that they run at variable speeds to match the load.
GFM
So now the newer blower motors are a 3 phase DC servo reluctance motors. Like in the newer washing machines. Which have been renamed ECM for short. In a nutshell they save a lot of electricity.
Thanks for your videos - I have a carrier unit with an X13 ECM 1/5 hp 230v GE motor - and what it keeps on doing is with the fan switch in the on position, it will run for about three seconds and then shut down - run for three more seconds and then shutdown again - with the blower door removed it will run much longer before it shuts down again. I don't have an ecm tester - is there anyway to tell if it's the fan control board or the ecm module?
Thanks very informative video. Just had a question. When the ecm is plugged into the blower it’s hard to spin the blower but when disconnected you can move it like it should. Does that mean it’s a bad ecm?
Does ECM multi-speed have the same type of windings in your video except for the end bell difference?
nice
I would love to know exactly how it works. I am assuming that the capacitors and the inductor coil are used as a filter to get the ripple out of the dc that is generated. I've heard that it has a current limiting thermister to limit current in the rectifier circuit. I call it a rectifier circuit but it has mosfet transistors in it and I know that they use anode and cathode saturation to control those. Anyway, I would love to know exactly how the circuit works. It would make it much easier to troubleshoot. Keep me posted. and thanks!
thanks
Welcome
GFM
I dont have one right now to check, but I think around 330 microfarad. This will be different for the different sizes.
GFM
I am a audio video tech and have worked Vcrs since they came out ,this is the same thing ,on a large scale, as video drum motor .
You will have to explain "cogging".
GFM
Something I have tried with the Carrier 3.0 ECM GC08. After I have had to replace the ECM module 4 times in 8 years, at the cost of $200.00 labor while under warranty. It has failed again. You get an error 41 and 44. Cannot communicate with the blower and blower motor fault. I just got so frustrated when the Carrier people will not let me exchange the defective module for a good one. Have to have a Certified Carrier Technician. So, I took out the ECM module and put it in the oven at 180 degrees for 5 hours. I then replaced the module. I has been running now for three days. I suspect moisture intrusion. They will tell you to make sure the two connectors are at 4 o'clock position or the 8 o'clock position. Make sure the harness is routed below the two connectors, so the water won't drip into the connectors. The module is potted, so there is nothing you can do. By putting the unit in the oven you evaporate the moisture in the unit and it works. How long it works is anybody's guess. You will pay over $1000.00 for a complete motor replacement when out of warranty. I've had one technician recommend putting a surge protector on the harness going to the ECM. It's been my experience that these modules are not reliable and very costly. If your module is already not working, see if it has a moisture problem getting past the potting material. Mine fail regularly every two years.
if your Variable Speed Zebra says your module (end bell) is bad then check the resistor (its about the size of a nickle up to a quarter.) in this video you can see a green one at 1:29. check that resistor for continuity. if there isnt continuity you can replace that resistor with a soldering iron and a new resistor for about 25 dollars (soldering iron not included) . this saving you or your customer hundreds of dollars.
Thanks for posting. Are the mosfits servicable/replaceable? I have a ecm variable speed motor combo that isnt ramping up to high full speed. Its stuck in low. It attempts to go to high but fails. Thanks for any suggestions
Some have epoxy poured over them so they will be really hard to replace. The problem I have is on my 2 year old Trane I can't find the replacement MOSFET/IC MOTOR DRIVER. You can see the part number but most places are out of stock and other similar ones have double or more amperage rating. Why is that I can't find replacement parts when the unit is only 2 years old?
I think I found the answer to my problem at 3:55 in this video.
When turning on my fan kicks in the right direction but then in the opposite direction oscillating back and forth.
Great video! Do you know what voltage should be going through each one of those phases. Currently checking on my 1/3 hp 2.8 amp 682 rpm champion 3ton heatpump condenser motor. Does it step the voltage down from 220?
This unit is only 3 months old, after a thunder storm power outage, I noticed the condenser not running an hour later, I came to find out the unit had already shut down once for overheat, it turned back on but only compressor , not the fan.
I unplugged the 3 wire plug that goes to the motor to test the voltage while the pump was running, I got 35 volts on all 3 wires, then plugged it back in and the fan came back on like normal.
What happened? Is it fine or did something possibly get damaged? Thank you
I just replaced one that had a snapped shaft. It beat the shaft against the casing until it worn about half way and then it snapped. The squirrel cage was intact. I opened it and the magnet inside shattered. I never seen anything like that before.
V3 N1e dang that is crazy! Failed epoxy on the magnet maybe??
Excellent video 👍 but there’s one problem that I’m having that the motor Sometimes doesn’t come on but the outside unit comes on then a half hour later the motor turns on what can that be ,
Sorry your comment was in the trash. Let's hope the new module is ok. And yes the ohms should be the same on all windings. Could also be shorted to ground.
Gfm
No supply house that I know of does not have a tester nor do they sell just the back end. I agree with you in that all the motors that I replaced , the motor part is good. I just wonder what is the main component that goes bad on the back end of the motor. It’s a shame I can’t just replace the back end part.
I don't know of a supply house that does not sell the end bell by itself, except the X-13. In many cases, the thermistor my be replaced for a simple, inexpensive repair. I do have a video about the thermistor repair.
GFM
One thing to mention if they send you one that is running in wrong direction,(Just switch two of your motor leads.) I've had a couple time that the module were backwards and when you call the supply house, they will say that's what that model number calls for. Quick fix and on your way
+David Witherspoon Good info
GFM
Just as you do in a typical 3 phase motor :)
All great info however at 7:20 are you not just checking the end bell board, not the three phase dc windings? AC in/DC (pulsed) out, right? Seems the windings would be well isolated from the three exposed leads by that mosfet chip and associated electronics. Aye?
you need to talk to DrZarkloff he says you can not change the end bell instead you have to replace the whole motor.
thanks for all the videos they are very helpful for me as i am a student in the hvac field
It depends on the motor. Many are replaceable.
GFM
+GFM LOL (talk to the Dr.), I saw ad showing Evergreen makes a reversible 1/2 HP ECM replacement, not that one would need such a feature on a simple HVAC blower but for a special application and the right controller it's possible, residential elevator perhaps.
ALLAN KENNEY
if you ohm the winding out in the motor and they read good then you can just replace the e.c.m. (end cap) the end cap. It is an inverter (ac to dc) with a variable speed motor controller. that has a programmable ramp speed. at least thats what I believe it is.
Nice audio & graphics.
Thanks for the support.
GFM
Thanks for the support.
GFM
Thanks for the support.
GFM
I have a 2.3 ecm motor 1/2 hp, that I replaced a thermistor on. When I take the end bell off there is not cogging in the motor, when I connect the endbell, cogging. What is this an indication of?
Is it possible to hook this motor up to a three way switch so I could use the highest and lowest speeds? I'm looking to retro fit it into my shop air filtration system... do you have any info as far as how I would go about making this work as far as wiring goes? Any and all help is greatly apprieciated, since this seems to be a bit more of a process than the last motor I had installed ... thanks!
jon nelson These motors are controlled by their own amp draw electronically. If the amp draw reduces, the motor increases speed until the amp draw reaches a predetermined amount. Pretty tough to control. Hope this helps.
GFM
So I have a 1/2hp 1 phase just like the motor in this video. The fan motor was studdering to try to start, This is an expensive motor, My question is, when I turn the shaft of the motor by hand should it spin freely? Mine seems to feel like magnetic resistance. Thanks in advance. All of the windings inside look brand new. Its a GE motor off a lennox air handler 14 seer.
What brand or name tester is used to test these specific motors
this thing would make a good generator wouldn't you think? youd have to mod it of coarse but looks like a good core for such a thing
I tried this. Didn't work too well for me. At least not the way I tried it.
GFM
grayfurnaceman thanks for the input
Great video! Is ECM a BLDC motor that has a built-in controller?
It is a BLDC motor. Most of these do not have a built in controller. Usually, they will have a control built in to the furnace control board.
GFM
The Emerson UltraTech Variable Speed Motor Manual says to check the voltage between pins 1 and 4 of the communication cable/connector (the one with 4 pins), should be 9-15 VDC. But I've measured 3.3 VDC coming from two different PCBs (PCBJA103). Any experience or comments about this?
Confirming that 3.3 VDC is the correct voltage.
How many volts DC are these motors? Btw I have an X13 that’s 240 volts.. I have the end bell as well as the control panel. ( the control panel (pcb board with transformer and wiring to the thermostat was mounted on the side of the squirrel cage)
They are variable voltage.
GFM
Where can one get a replacement end bell module for a Goodman/GE ECM motor?
Hi and thanks for the great video. I wanted to know what the name of the male plug on the motor side is called? I have a module that shorted the plug and I need to install a new plug on the motor side.
I have no idea.
GFM
Thanks anyway. Turns out the connector was still in good condition.
I was told same thing is sold as one unit.....York package unit....
I have a X13 GE motor thats got a bad module. The A/C man says its going to cost me 800-1000 to replace. That's crazy!! My question to him was....will he just wire in a old capacitor start motor like the old style motors and he said he could for 300 including new motor. What is your opinion of this? I'm not concerned with saving electricity but saving hundreds of dollars and ease of future headaches! Thanks. I really look forward to your response.
I have an ecm that keeps cogging back and forth during cooling or fan only demand. What's up with that? I have tested the windings between each other at 10 ohms. The black terminal on the control board that connects to the corresponding motor winding was overheated and black. I cleaned it, re-installed and tested the same - not working.
Hi, does the furnace control board sends AC or DC to this ecm motor through the 4 wire connector? Thanks
Its pulsed DC.
GFM
Take another motor and hook it shaft to shaft to this one ,turn it on ,measure the voltage at you leads . I think you will have a three phase generator .
Sorry about not responding. You were in the spam. However, I would have told you to replace the motor. There is nothing that you can do to fix these.
GFM
I'm pretty sure you said you were checking continuity to the windings? Actually you were checking resistance when you read that each winding had 3 ohms of resistance which, just like a 3 phase motors windings would read if they were good, all 3 would have the same resistance.
The motor is not reversible that I know of. So if it goes the wrong way, the ECM end bell is probably failed.
GFM
Same motor, module as my rc esc and motor also dc 3 phase
Forgot to mention I did get an open reading between all of the windings and the case on the motor so I suspect the motor is fine.
What about getting the right fan rotation?