Fascinating subject. I really struggle out of the saddle riding on Zwift at all - even for a sprint, and i think this is the muscle fatigue point you raise rather than HR. I suspect i should addresss this via standing training as ultimately a body is generally successful in doing what it knows best/has been trained for. And i do agree with the high cadence/low cadence point above - maybe a separate vid needed, but I love the way you're hitting these interesting subjects.
I’m definitely an out of the saddle guy, always wondered whether that is due to my running background. My HR definitely seems to increase slightly when standing but I feel it is my legs that let me down more in races than my cardio so happy to avoid sitting for too long as that seems to put more strain through my quads
Great vid, Dave. Very informative! And it corresponds totally with what I have experienced on AdZ by upping my cadence from about 75 to 85 and knocking off several minutes.
Cheers and thank you! I just watched your video on why you join a team in Zwift the other day, great race tactics! Yea AdZ and Ventop are two climbs that ive notice you can really see a difference by riding at a preferred cadence! its surprising how much time you can take off a PB with it
Interesting video! I'm very light (50kg ) and I find I can ride out of the saddle when climbing, for long periods of time - over 10 minutes at times. But mostly I switch between out of the saddle and seated, and find that mix gives my legs the best chance to rest and recruit different muscles.
Cheers! Thanks for sharing! I love getting input about each rider type and what they prefer. I have always been team seated, but I have spoken to a few other lighter riders on my team and they all prefer standing, just like yourself. Seems like from the comments I have received, the data on lighter riders benefiting more from standing is backed up (but with a small sample size). what percentage of the time would you say you are standing on something like AdZ? the highest i have spoken to so far has been 90% of the time 😀
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork 90% out of saddle! That surprises me 😂. For something like adZ I'd be probably 50/50, maybe 40/60 (seated/standing). Once I'm fatigued at the end, I'm usually standing all the time, and then I can only stand! If I try to sit, my legs don't usually comply 🤓. I force myself to do seated efforts though, I think relying purely on out of the saddle isn't giving yourself all the advantages you need, especially in an outdoor race - need to be aero! 👍
90% is just what one teammate said, who knows maybe he embellished a bit and it's only 80% 😂. Cool to see 50/50 on AdZ, I might crack about half way if I tried that! Yea outdoor races it's super important for, I only do a few outdoor races a year, but need to plan to train both ways after making this video 😂
I’m about 85 kg and have a hard time riding out of the saddle for more than a minute or so. I also have a hard time transitioning from standing to sitting and can’t do it smoothly, I have to stop pedaling sit them start pedaling again. It is strange because I don’t have this issue while riding in real life. My theory is it is because the bike is rigid and doesn’t move side to side like it would if I was riding on the road.
hmmm that is strange. Do you have to completely stop pedaling while transitioning indoors? I do notice, i have a noticeable drop in watts when transitioning (especially later in races), going from 350w in standing to under 280w seated.
The moment I switch from a standing position to a sitting position after a climb is when I am most susceptible of being dropped because I cannot keep the same cadence. To avoid it I try to stay in the same position until it gets flat again otherwise, I can't recover. By the way how long can you stay at 190 bpm? That was crazy long.
Some of my races (and some video clips show it), as i get close to cracking, I have the same issue. For me if i try and transition from standing to sitting and my watts drop below ~280 it means im on the edge. When i still have something left in the tank its usually a smoother transition though. Maybe it could be something as simple as gearing though? I learned, right before transitioning from standing to seated to go down about two gears so that its not to hard to get over the top of the pedals once you sit down. I also try and transition to seated on the shallower gradients or to standing on the steeper bits. haha, i can be in the 187 to 190 range about a minute. There were two video clips in there in which i was that high, but those were two of my more extreme examples. Anything over 184 HR is not very sustainable for me.
I like your vids but I think you really missed the mark here. For one you mention grinding vs spinning but actually the vid is about seating vs standing. You also reference outside studies to support your arguments but I think this is a red herring, and that is how inertia on a trainer is fundamentally different to outside. Watch any Zwift “pro” race. Those guys are all ultra low cadence all the time both in and out of the saddle. Why? I think two reasons. 1) lower cadence produces less heat and a lower HR (opposite to what you say), 2) the higher initial inertia of the trainer means it’s bio mechanically easier to ride at a low cadence. I notice this in my own riding, my natural cadence outside is high 80s. Inside closer to 72. If I try to do my outside cadence inside, my HR is higher and I never seem to be able to produce power, it’s like the flywheel is ahead of me, if that makes any sense? So I think you need to go back to the drawing board on this, maybe consult an expert on bio mechanics and figure out why low cadence is preferred by Zwift Pro racers. This is also why I think a lot of those guys are poor outside bike racers, because the low cad out of saddle stuff doesn’t work as well in the real world. Sorry for the novel 😂.
no worries about the novel! thanks for providing some data in a respectful manner 🙂. This was an interesting topic to research (I went in thinking it would be fairly straightforward), however found out there are many conflicting studies related to this. I was fairly certain someone would mention the heart rate being opposite, as I read multiple studies that had conflicting points on the heart rate issue. However, the study i am referencing on the higher heart rate was based on research from Anthony Bouillod. In his study, he mentions that some studies do not replicate real world conditions (because the riders are told to either stand or sit for 4 or 5-minute intervals), he attempted to reproduce real-world conditions by having participants alternate between positions to simulate riders shifting during IRL rides. He found (especially for heavier riders) that it did increase heart rate, breathing frequency, and breath volume, compared to staying seated. Other studies did show that HRs increase as well and others I researched indicated that there can be differences between individuals for how their HR increases, with some individuals reporting almost no increase in heart rate while standing, but on average an increase was reported. I have noticed that many Zwift high-level riders (in Zwift Grand Prix) tend to have lower cadences as well. This was a topic I did consider, but not much research exists specific to the preferences of Zwift pro riders. Based on the research, I thought about this very question as the chicken and the egg problem of which came first. As there is research stating that lighter riders are more likely to benefit from / prefer standing with a lower cadence, are the "pro" riders "grinding" simply because they tend to be lighter? In reality, it might be a mix of both. I would love for more research to be conducted on what happens when a bike is fixed to a trainer. One study I found did show that riders with more violent bike rock back and forth were less efficient than ones with smoother rocking. I truly respect you bringing up additional points to consider, as it gives me more points to think critically about, and now I'm kind of interested in finding out if the top-level riders are 1.) training to do this only for zwift / how many of them are poor outdoor riders and 2.) if there are differences between them, and those of us a ways away from competing with them 🙂!
I cant cycle out of saddle for long no matter how much i train so i spin at 90-100+ RPM. only come out of saddle for few seconds during short climbs and sprint.
I typically have a conclusion, and started the video thinking spinning was the way to go (as that way works well for me). However, after looking into the research on the topic, I truly think it comes down to what each rider is most comfortable with. For me, I am sticking with spinning, but I know a lot of riders (especially lighter ones), who are out of the saddle >50% of the time on climbs. I always thought this was inefficient, but there is data that suggests these individuals are not at a disadvantage. So it's difficult for me to definitively say all riders should ride one way or another. It seems as if your body is best at telling you when you need to be in one position or another. Sorry if the conclusion was a letdown :), but what I gained from researching it is I won't tell my teammates they are inefficient if they are always out of the saddle :).
great to hear your feedback/input! that does line up with lighter riders seeming to prefer being out of the saddle. Im not light, riding at ~73kg, but prefer being in the saddle, right around the 85 to 90 rpm range as well.
It seams everyone is different, No hard and fast rule, I'm 57kg and 57 years old and do my efforts all standing including VEN TOP at 1500 m in 1.06 .I wouldn't last 5 minutes seated at 260w but can do it for over an hour standing. How Bizarre!!
Yea thats true, i almost forgot about his doping. I wonder if he would have been out of the saddle any less without doping. I kind of think of some of the classic lance armstrong attacks and how hard he could push for long periods out of the saddle.
I actually agree with that we cant blame lance, but i feel like im in the minority 😂. I think i read somewhere that for one of his tours, they couldnt say anyone else was the official winner because 9 of the top 10 in GC were either caught doping or it was highly suspicious.
Fascinating subject. I really struggle out of the saddle riding on Zwift at all - even for a sprint, and i think this is the muscle fatigue point you raise rather than HR. I suspect i should addresss this via standing training as ultimately a body is generally successful in doing what it knows best/has been trained for.
And i do agree with the high cadence/low cadence point above - maybe a separate vid needed, but I love the way you're hitting these interesting subjects.
Thanks Neil! I love tackling these interesting subjects, I learn just as much researching them as (i hope 😀) everyone does watching them!
I’m definitely an out of the saddle guy, always wondered whether that is due to my running background.
My HR definitely seems to increase slightly when standing but I feel it is my legs that let me down more in races than my cardio so happy to avoid sitting for too long as that seems to put more strain through my quads
Out of saddle for ever. Pantani style. ESPECIALLY for zwift. If you’re serious about indoor cycling, training oos is a must. Even on long efforts.
Another great video and info, thank you!
Great vid, Dave. Very informative! And it corresponds totally with what I have experienced on AdZ by upping my cadence from about 75 to 85 and knocking off several minutes.
Cheers and thank you! I just watched your video on why you join a team in Zwift the other day, great race tactics!
Yea AdZ and Ventop are two climbs that ive notice you can really see a difference by riding at a preferred cadence! its surprising how much time you can take off a PB with it
Standing and going all in is the key for heavy riders like myself.
My preference without any evidence that it works is, always seated when climbing unless the % gets into double digits. Only then will I stand 😅
😂your style is almost spot on with mine! I usually stand at about 9 or 10%
Very helpful, thanks.
Interesting video! I'm very light (50kg ) and I find I can ride out of the saddle when climbing, for long periods of time - over 10 minutes at times. But mostly I switch between out of the saddle and seated, and find that mix gives my legs the best chance to rest and recruit different muscles.
Cheers! Thanks for sharing! I love getting input about each rider type and what they prefer. I have always been team seated, but I have spoken to a few other lighter riders on my team and they all prefer standing, just like yourself. Seems like from the comments I have received, the data on lighter riders benefiting more from standing is backed up (but with a small sample size).
what percentage of the time would you say you are standing on something like AdZ? the highest i have spoken to so far has been 90% of the time 😀
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork 90% out of saddle! That surprises me 😂.
For something like adZ I'd be probably 50/50, maybe 40/60 (seated/standing). Once I'm fatigued at the end, I'm usually standing all the time, and then I can only stand! If I try to sit, my legs don't usually comply 🤓.
I force myself to do seated efforts though, I think relying purely on out of the saddle isn't giving yourself all the advantages you need, especially in an outdoor race - need to be aero! 👍
90% is just what one teammate said, who knows maybe he embellished a bit and it's only 80% 😂.
Cool to see 50/50 on AdZ, I might crack about half way if I tried that!
Yea outdoor races it's super important for, I only do a few outdoor races a year, but need to plan to train both ways after making this video 😂
I prefer seated but will be out of saddle on power moves, to get comfy or if incline gets above 10%
I’m about 85 kg and have a hard time riding out of the saddle for more than a minute or so. I also have a hard time transitioning from standing to sitting and can’t do it smoothly, I have to stop pedaling sit them start pedaling again. It is strange because I don’t have this issue while riding in real life. My theory is it is because the bike is rigid and doesn’t move side to side like it would if I was riding on the road.
hmmm that is strange. Do you have to completely stop pedaling while transitioning indoors? I do notice, i have a noticeable drop in watts when transitioning (especially later in races), going from 350w in standing to under 280w seated.
The moment I switch from a standing position to a sitting position after a climb is when I am most susceptible of being dropped because I cannot keep the same cadence. To avoid it I try to stay in the same position until it gets flat again otherwise, I can't recover. By the way how long can you stay at 190 bpm? That was crazy long.
Some of my races (and some video clips show it), as i get close to cracking, I have the same issue. For me if i try and transition from standing to sitting and my watts drop below ~280 it means im on the edge. When i still have something left in the tank its usually a smoother transition though. Maybe it could be something as simple as gearing though? I learned, right before transitioning from standing to seated to go down about two gears so that its not to hard to get over the top of the pedals once you sit down. I also try and transition to seated on the shallower gradients or to standing on the steeper bits.
haha, i can be in the 187 to 190 range about a minute. There were two video clips in there in which i was that high, but those were two of my more extreme examples. Anything over 184 HR is not very sustainable for me.
I like your vids but I think you really missed the mark here. For one you mention grinding vs spinning but actually the vid is about seating vs standing. You also reference outside studies to support your arguments but I think this is a red herring, and that is how inertia on a trainer is fundamentally different to outside. Watch any Zwift “pro” race. Those guys are all ultra low cadence all the time both in and out of the saddle. Why? I think two reasons. 1) lower cadence produces less heat and a lower HR (opposite to what you say), 2) the higher initial inertia of the trainer means it’s bio mechanically easier to ride at a low cadence.
I notice this in my own riding, my natural cadence outside is high 80s. Inside closer to 72. If I try to do my outside cadence inside, my HR is higher and I never seem to be able to produce power, it’s like the flywheel is ahead of me, if that makes any sense?
So I think you need to go back to the drawing board on this, maybe consult an expert on bio mechanics and figure out why low cadence is preferred by Zwift Pro racers. This is also why I think a lot of those guys are poor outside bike racers, because the low cad out of saddle stuff doesn’t work as well in the real world.
Sorry for the novel 😂.
no worries about the novel! thanks for providing some data in a respectful manner 🙂. This was an interesting topic to research (I went in thinking it would be fairly straightforward), however found out there are many conflicting studies related to this. I was fairly certain someone would mention the heart rate being opposite, as I read multiple studies that had conflicting points on the heart rate issue.
However, the study i am referencing on the higher heart rate was based on research from Anthony Bouillod. In his study, he mentions that some studies do not replicate real world conditions (because the riders are told to either stand or sit for 4 or 5-minute intervals), he attempted to reproduce real-world conditions by having participants alternate between positions to simulate riders shifting during IRL rides. He found (especially for heavier riders) that it did increase heart rate, breathing frequency, and breath volume, compared to staying seated. Other studies did show that HRs increase as well and others I researched indicated that there can be differences between individuals for how their HR increases, with some individuals reporting almost no increase in heart rate while standing, but on average an increase was reported.
I have noticed that many Zwift high-level riders (in Zwift Grand Prix) tend to have lower cadences as well. This was a topic I did consider, but not much research exists specific to the preferences of Zwift pro riders. Based on the research, I thought about this very question as the chicken and the egg problem of which came first. As there is research stating that lighter riders are more likely to benefit from / prefer standing with a lower cadence, are the "pro" riders "grinding" simply because they tend to be lighter? In reality, it might be a mix of both.
I would love for more research to be conducted on what happens when a bike is fixed to a trainer. One study I found did show that riders with more violent bike rock back and forth were less efficient than ones with smoother rocking.
I truly respect you bringing up additional points to consider, as it gives me more points to think critically about, and now I'm kind of interested in finding out if the top-level riders are 1.) training to do this only for zwift / how many of them are poor outdoor riders and 2.) if there are differences between them, and those of us a ways away from competing with them 🙂!
I cant cycle out of saddle for long no matter how much i train so i spin at 90-100+ RPM. only come out of saddle for few seconds during short climbs and sprint.
Spin to win
Mash for cash
ouuuu if i was still making the video i would definitely use your phrase "mash for cash". I like it 😀!
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork i cant take credit for it, Hank on GCN said it first 😄
Whatever you prefer 😡😡😡😡 I want answer!
I typically have a conclusion, and started the video thinking spinning was the way to go (as that way works well for me). However, after looking into the research on the topic, I truly think it comes down to what each rider is most comfortable with.
For me, I am sticking with spinning, but I know a lot of riders (especially lighter ones), who are out of the saddle >50% of the time on climbs. I always thought this was inefficient, but there is data that suggests these individuals are not at a disadvantage. So it's difficult for me to definitively say all riders should ride one way or another.
It seems as if your body is best at telling you when you need to be in one position or another. Sorry if the conclusion was a letdown :), but what I gained from researching it is I won't tell my teammates they are inefficient if they are always out of the saddle :).
I HAVE 100KG FOR ME IT S DEFINITELY SITTING AND 85 90 RPM ,BUT I CAN HANDLE A 100 METER HILL FROM THE SADDLE.
great to hear your feedback/input! that does line up with lighter riders seeming to prefer being out of the saddle. Im not light, riding at ~73kg, but prefer being in the saddle, right around the 85 to 90 rpm range as well.
Standing on climbs in real life using my 90kg weight makes that pedal turn over easier
It seams everyone is different, No hard and fast rule, I'm 57kg and 57 years old and do my efforts all standing including VEN TOP at 1500 m in 1.06 .I wouldn't last 5 minutes seated at 260w but can do it for over an hour standing.
How Bizarre!!
Yea thats crazy! i talked to a few other riders who said they stand (almost) as long as you, I was shocked cause im almost the opposite 😂
But alberto contador was doped out of his mine even more than cris froome may og may not have been
Yea thats true, i almost forgot about his doping. I wonder if he would have been out of the saddle any less without doping.
I kind of think of some of the classic lance armstrong attacks and how hard he could push for long periods out of the saddle.
@@ZwiftAnalysisNetwork A wonderful question we'll never get the answer to 😂 But we cant blame Lance they were all junkies for EPO and other shit.
I actually agree with that we cant blame lance, but i feel like im in the minority 😂.
I think i read somewhere that for one of his tours, they couldnt say anyone else was the official winner because 9 of the top 10 in GC were either caught doping or it was highly suspicious.