NORWAY VS USA PRISON: HALDEN x ATTICA - Breaking The Cycle Documentary Reaction
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- Опубліковано 5 вер 2024
- #norway #norge #norwegian #halden
Original: Breaking The Cycle
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Its so sad, now they know a prison of their 'dreams' exist but they have no access to it, in their prison. That broke my heart.
Great video, thank you for who suggested this!
Thanks for reacting, I know this was a long one! Hope you enjoyed your coffee. You bring up an interesting point about the contrasting mentalities between the American and Norwegian correctional systems. In Norway, the American system wouldn't work, and vice versa. It's not that American inmates can't be rehabilitated; many foreigners in Norwegian prisons do get rehabilitated. The difference lies in the goals. Norway focuses on ensuring people respect the law, while in the US, retribution seems to play a role. As a Norwegian, I don't care if the person who stole my wallet feels pain; I just want the punishment to prevent them from stealing again.
In Norway, finding a job after prison isn't too hard unless the case is high-profile. Employers never ask about incarceration. To get parole, inmates need to have a job or be studying, ensuring they're productive. Some jobs, like those in security, healthcare, or working with children, require a clean record, but accessing someone's criminal record is strictly regulated. Employers can only see relevant crimes for the job in question.
Regarding your point about prison jobs like making pallets or sewing bags, we don't have those in Norway. Such skills aren't transferable to the job market here, though they might serve as hobbies.
The biggest issue in Norway is the privacy and limited oversight by guards, leading mostly to suicide attempts rather than violence. There was an incident where a prison was temporarily shut down because staff couldn't intervene during a suicide due to understaffing and safety policies. According to Norway's corrections department, 9 out of 10 inmates show signs of personality disorders or psychiatric illnesses. In 2022, there were 95 suicide attempts, and since 2008, over 73 inmates have succeeded. Given we only have about 3500 incarcerated people, these numbers are high. Amnesty International and the UN have criticized our use of prisoner isolation, suggesting it may breach human rights.
Thanks again for your thoughtful reaction!
If we zoom out a bit, what is better for society as a whole, a system that allows the victim to get their revenge or a system that creates fewer victims?
and the question is: do you want the criminals to get the best food or our old folks… and if the point is to take the responsibility for what u have done then this is not helping and showing them that «hey you did something wrong…» its more like «this is okay and better than outside! i will continue to be here so i will do more sh*t…»
@@saralinnr no that is not part of the question at all. If your elderly gets worse food than the criminals in prison then that is a problem with the elderly care and not with the prison system.
And your second argument is completely illogical, all criminals run from the police and all criminals pretend to be innocent in courts. Aka not a single one of them prefers to be on the inside vs the outside.
Or rather, there exists a few individuals that prefer to live on the inside but those individuals are institutionalized and exists equally as much where quality of life is much much worse on the inside.
Swedish journalist Christoffer Hjalmarsson did a recent show for SVT (Swedish public broadcasting) where he tried to live in prison in Sweden for 30 days. Previously he had done 36 days living as a homeless person on the streets of Stockholm and by his own words he very much preferred the life as a homeless person over that in the prison. In Norway there was a similar show called "Petter i fengsel" where journalist Petter Nyqvist spent a month in Halden, but I've not seen that one (he also spent time living as homeless, in fact his both show where the inspiration for the Swedish ones).
This is as faulty logic as believing that the death penalty have a deterring effect.
I really appreciate that you have spent so much time understanding the philosophy behind the way prisons are run in the Nordic countries. Many people only react to the short videos that you saw to begin with. I think that is the reason why so many of us have written long and comprehensive comments where we have defended our system.
Thank you to everyone who contributed with coffee requests so that you had the opportunity to do a deep dive.
I have been involved in hiring people who have been in prison - and given them brief training on the job. In general, they are good at working, and good to have in a company. They are smart, they come up with solutions outside the box.
I understand that you take offense at the remark about "idiot jobs" but the context here is Norway, there are zero benefits of having experience making pallets and sewing bags once you leave the prison so teaching inmates that as a way to prepare them for being contributing members of society is idiotic, worthless and just a waste of resources.
yes it would be different if you learned to be a carpenter, but you can't even do that when you get out
Work after prison in Norway. You don't have to say you've been in prison, but some jobs require security clearance. so then you have to apply for a police certificate.
Then it is the person who approves the application, which determines whether you are OK to do the job.
Many jobs do not require this, but for a carpenter etc, and get a job, to go to a military installation and work, then you need a police certificate
Yes, indeed. And the crimes that are being looked up and listed are only relevant to the specific job. For example, if you go into healthcare it's not relevant whether you're convicted of tax evasion. If you get a job as an accountant or auditor, on the other hand, being convicted of tax evasion might bar you from getting such a job.
after prison you also has a hole in your CV you have to explain, but I think since they do good things and learn to be good people, it's less of a stigma maybe? They can talk about the things they learned in prison, and use it as an advantage maybe?
@@TullaRask There's been a focus on the job market of helping those with "holes" in their CVs, and yes, I do feel that the stigma around ex-cons in Norway is way smaller than in other countries
Prison is a reflection of what kind of society you have PERIOD.
Very well put! 👏
What kind of politicians, people in power and criminals you have, yes.
Society, no.
The entirety of a society is not determined by the penal system alone, and even if there is universal healthcare, benefits for the poor, social measures for minorities of all kinds et cetera, it does NOT mean the criminals you DO have will change, at all..
That`s an extremely narrow view, and simply not true.
32:46: In Norway, your crimes are between you and the state. It is not public, except for very special situations. But in general, if an employer needs to know about your past, they have to request it from the police and there are very strict rules. Normally, all your crimes are expunged after maximum three years. When you've served your time and are rehabilitated, you will not have it hanging over your head. We do have deep background checks, but those require even more special circumstances, like if you're applying for the police college. A random employer can't ask for these things at all. 37:40: We have suicides in Norwegian prisons, but people typically don't go from being happy to being suicidal over night. So those who are seen as at risk should be placed under special care. There's no reason to treat everyone as if they're suicidal. But the most important thing is to not make them suicidal to begin with.
I really appreciate your transition from the thumbnail to the video. Very smooth! And never seen that before!
Thank you! 😄😁
No, the consept is national here in Norway, he is just the manager of Halden prison. And we are talking about different people, different prisons and different cultures. BUT, the rehabilitation aspect is important. Does it work? Statisticly it seems to be working.
I haven't been a part of developing this system in Norway, but the way it typically is done is the government gets all kinds on complaints and feedback even from inmate organizations. Norway is a country of collaborations. So the governement asks for input, every organization who deals with this contribute an the ministry dealing with it, sets up a suggestion and release a paper. The organizations writes a paper as an answer to the ministry, and the ministry take them all into consideration. Then they issue a paper saying what the governement wants to be done, the parliament discuss and decide, and the government puts it into action. I suspect this is how this came to. After some time the government asks for evaluation and feedback, they maybe do some changes, and then some more changes. That's how it usually goes. One step at a time. Everyone's experiences, even the inmate's.
This is very interresting....
We don't have egos in Norway!😂
There is a problem with some inmates in Norway trying to end their life and some suceed doing it every year, however they are usually placed in cells with more supervising. Regular health checks etc.. But if they keep trying and trying, they might end up inn cells where there is nothing but a madress, and they might even get restrained to a bed without having freedom to move in the worst cases.. Each prison usually have health personals working with the inmates to check on them. And most people agree that they should not bee in prison but on a mental hospital or something like that..
The US prison system can never be the same with Norway. Never ever. The system would just not allow it.
The us prison system is a buisness,in some states the prison can rent out prisoners to do field work on farms etc and the prison gets paid not the inmates,basically modern slavery.
But you also need to raise standards of living in society in general. There's nothing you can do in Norway to earn yourself homelessness, lack of healthcare or food insecurity. Those things are basic rights. We don't want our prisons to be of lower standards than the safety net in society in general, because that might train the prisoners to be comfortable staying on the safety net. That's not what we want. We want them to want more.
I think if you give people some responsabilities and privacy then are going less for unliving theirselves. You want to behave better because they are 'good' to you. But maybe I see it way to easy.
In Norway we respect the privacy of the inmates, but we simultaneously have a very high unaliving rate in the prisons. Most of that can be attributed to understaffed prisons where inmates are spending a lot of time in isolation because they are difficult to deal with, or simply because...you know...prison kinda sucks.
It's hard to respect the american because you see that he really hats the inmates.He said it himself:who cares if the inmate is degraded because they watch them on the toilet.🙁
You can`t just compare the prison system or the correctional facilities, because we`re Norwegian, and Norwegians and Americans are different people, living in very different cultures.
Not to say that we don`t have our fair share of foreigners in Norwegian prisons, people actually come here with the purpose of doing crime so they can get off the street and get food and shelter, because they live on the streets of some east European country for instance.
Which is terrible, but..
Nr.1: you can`t just swap systems when the actual culture is so different, culture doesn`t change people, culture IS the people.
And Nr.2: you would very likely have a lot of "crime tourists".
And in a place like the US where there`s so much more poverty and so many fewer options for the poor, it would be mayhem..
But as with socialism (yes, divisive subject I know), you could start on a small and very local scale, such as trying it in a single facility, and not really advertise it to the world, but rather use the opportunity to give people with less serious offenses, a chance to serve their time in such a facility.
Not perfect, but should be a viable test solution.
Also, saying "I`m opposed to luxury for criminals" makes it sound like you think all criminals are the same, which of course they are not.
If you take away all creature comfort from a person with a speeding ticket who maybe resisted arrest, they should in fact NOT be treated the same as murderers and rpists.
If you do, they will lose their sense of humanity, dignity and self-worth, then come out worse than they went in.
Grayzones need to be paid attention to, unless you want the penal system to be a crime factory.
Underrated comment