Zweihander vs Polearm: How two-handed swords are different to pole weapons
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- Zweihander (two-handed sword) recreation by Tod's Workshop. The zweihander, as it is often called today, is historically known as the two-handed sword, greatsword, spadone (in Italy) and montante (in Spain).
Video created by: www.alexabdolw...
Tod's Workshop: todsworkshop.com/
You see a guy with a Zweihander and you think
"There is no way in hell that that guy can possibly fight with that thing, but if he can, there is no way in hell that I'm gonna be the guy who fights him"
"I know he prolly couldn't but I ain't gonna fuck around and see if he could"
I dont know about a one from this video, but 160 cm length and 2.5 kg of weight shouldnt be a problem to use
"What do I do against that."
@Laserowy Kuba You're supposed to start them with a kick to the tip. it really is a weapon that doesn't afford time to react. Once it stops it's just a very expensive short spear, as you see at 16:25. Portuguese stick fighting uses broadly the same round motions as montante and despite the weapon being 500g it will tire up a non-conditioned fighter in minutes.
"see... I could win in the 10th round but i have an appointment..."
Yup, 200 of these guys armed with ludicrous swords could easily turn 1,000 men in fear with little actual engagement. Shock and awe is very effective. We still think airplanes in WWII were super effective against tanks when the actual numbers don’t reflect a credible effect at all with a 3:2 kill ratio against tanks since massed return machine gun fire was so dangerous against planes that they couldn’t effectively take out tanks without suffering nearly 50:50 losses. But it’s hard to argue with death from above even if it’s mythical it’s still demoralizing.
There is a great story from the Swiss-Burgundian war (1476/77) about a swordsman, Jacques Baillod from the canton of Neuchatel who had to guard a bridge against possible incursions from marauding Burgundians. He got attacked by a dozen enemy soldiers and fought them off all by himself, killing six of them. Our hero is described as an exceptionally big, strong man and an expert swordsman especially with the "Zweihänder". It was of course with this weapon that he succeeded in his legendary heroic deed. The grateful people of his hometown rewarded him generously and presented him with a medal with the inscription "Ein Mann, Ein Heer" (a man, an army)
i think 'one man, one army' is a better translation in that context?
Is this the mythical Ser Twenty of house Goodmen?
Or, in more modern colloquial terms, "A one-man army"?
@@DreamPen I think thats the clousest translation. But why didnt the shoot him with arrows . I would even start throwing rocks at him, then fighting against him
Seems to be quite a common story across different cultures. We have the battle of Stanford bridge in the UK and there is a similar story from Japan though I can't remember the details.
I wonder if the reputation of zweihanders as pike-breakers comes not from literally breaking the pikes, but rather breaking their formation? If you imagine you're in a big bristly pike block, with a whole bunch of guys standing pretty close together, all with long (and as Todd points out) slightly springy poles all nicely lined up, and then a bunch of maniacs with giant swords and blinged up outfits come swinging said giant swords at you, knocking your spears about so they all get tangled up and knocked out of alignment, your pike block is going to be much less able to react when the maniacs' mates come along with their own pointy sticks...
Next time you're at Fightcamp you should try this in an experiment - get a bunch of guys with some nice long sticks to stand in formation, and see how easily they can keep that formation while some other guys knock their weapons about.
Totally agree with the experiment suggestion!
That's what I actually thought Todd meant when he first said it - breaking up the pike formation. (Maybe that's because I'd already heard Matt say somewhere else that you need three good blows with a sword to break a pole shaft.) So I'd like to see the experiment too.
Could very well be. Perhaps even using the word "break" to mean "stop" or "interrupt" (i.e., take a break). I'm pretty sure that's what's meant by those sword breaker daggers, as those things don't actually break swords, but if one gets caught in it, it would certainly interrupt or stop the sword.
Unfortunately, the more likely explanation is that zweihanders never actually did have a reputation as "pike breakers" historically, and that the belief stems from a single Italian chronicler describing an incident he didn't personally witness and some 19th century historian who later took that statement at face value and assumed that it must have been the norm rather than an odd outlier.
Indeed. The sharp edges could help in binding, keeping the pike shafts from slipping off. So in one swipe you might knock say 3-4 pikes to the side and when you come in swinging and get a few consecutive strikes, you might just create enough of an opening for your unit to exploit.
Doppelsoldner - paid twice as much to live half as long.
Except the Doppelsoldner who were in the most danger, i.e. those placed in the front ranks, typically carried pikes, not great swords.
While not every Doppelsöldner carried a great sword, soldiers with great swords usually were a Doppelsöldner. E.g. as a member of a verlorener Haufen (forlorn hope - a unit of soldiers who were supposed to undertake risky maneuvers) you were a Doppelsöldner regardless of your weapons. Unless you were assigned to the verlorener Haufen as a disciplinary measure.
The "forlorne hope" at the time were usually armed with arquebuses. Military writers described them as a modern version of the ancient roman "velites", i.e. a loose screen of skirmishers sent out in front to cover the advance of the rest of the army. They were sometimes accompanied by a number of soldiers armed with halberds, sword&shield, or two handed swords to give them a bit more protection and an edge when fighting other skirmishers, but they generally weren't supposed to charge head first into enemy pike squares.
Other Doppelsoldners included the number of hand picked troops who would be assigned to guard the company's ensign with either halberds or two handed swords, but those would be stationed in the very center of a pike square where they usually wouldn't be in very great danger.
While most of the Doppelsoldner did not have great swords, every Landsknecht who _did_ have one and fought with it was classed as one.
Edit: 2 sec later I read that keizoebara said the same thing. Heh
@@HessianLikeTheFabric Protestant ethics of a certain era. Look up the equivalent "quiver mom."
Sometimes you just need a big-ass-sword.
Ass-sword?
@@Tork789
*Robo-geisha (movie) memories kicked in
Thanks for the pain, I guess...
It's such a gorgeous sword
Aldor fitting prof pic
Could hardly think of anything else but how beautiful it is - great piece of work there !
*Polearm
It's not a sword, you can't use it like a sword.
(This comment is false, pleasw ignore it)
The bass canon is truly a work of art
But sword makes no ExpLosIoNs
Zweihander; badass giant manly sword that can split a man in two. Also, iconically wielded by Swiss mercenaries who were dressed in the most colourful flamboyant outfits at the time topped off with giant feathery hats. Oh, how I wish they made a movie with those guys.
I dont know if they were the most colourful and flamboyant at the time. It seemed like it was kind of the fashion among landsknecht mercenaries. But they might have been.
But you know as well as I that in that movie, they would wear dirty black and brown biker leather gear. Gritty!
With metal studs, lots of them, and don't forget mud in their faces
If you watch closely at ceremonies in the Vatican sometimes you see a couple of swiss guards carryng spadoni (or zweihander, since they speak german). I also saw these weapons being kept in their armory in a documentary. The coolest thing is that in that documentary the said that some of the weapons and armor are antiques that sat in that armory since the 14th century.
Yeah, the flamboyant style was to show off their wealth and bravado. They also wore huge berets and oversized codpieces; the slit sleeves were to show that they could afford the excess cloth.
If you think about it, it's kinda like suburban dads nowadays, who have to get the latest SUV to show they still got 'it' or mumble rappers having tattoos all over - except that the Swiss guard or the Landsknechte were actual badasses.
"hey Hans"
"ja Villhelm?"
"you know how ze polearms are super popular?"
"jah"
"vhat if ve made a sword into a polearm?"
"........................"
"Zis is vhy mutter hates your Villhelm"
Villhelm: *-cries in german-*
*criss un Deutsche*
Ach du scheiße
Warum alles mit V? Wir benutzen den Buchstaben "w" auch in Deutschland... (Why do you use the letter "v"? We also use the letter "w" in Germany...) The letter "W" is pronounced like the english letter "V" so in that point you are correct. You can see it on the name "Villhelm" which is actually written "Willhelm" but not spoken differently.
The letter V is pronounced like an english "f" in german. So "Villhelm" would be pronounced "Fillhelm" in Germany. Confusing right?
@@0Droplet0 He uses the v to express the way most germans speak english. The english v sounds like the german w after all.
I've always thought that the point of using greatswords against pikes is not to actually chop the pikes off, but to simply push the pikes down and aside with large, circular motions. Due to the pike being so long, the pikeman has very little leverage at the point, which would make it relatively easy to push the weapon aside which would lead to disruptions and potential openings in the pike formation that could be utilized by lighter troops such as rodeleros.
Greatswords are lighter on the tip than halberds or pollaxes, which means that doing those motions would quite probably be faster and lighter with greatswords than other large weapons.
Miska Kopperoinen didnt lindeybeige explain it like this?
He might have, can't remember off the top of my head. It would make sense to me and apparently Lloyd too, but I will admit openly that I have no formal education in late medieval and early renaissance history nor have I actually trained HEMA.
Yes, this exactly. The idea of chopping a pike head off is ridiculous - better to chop the head off the pike MAN.
Remember that pikes are used in tight blocks, with men fairly tightly clustered together. When three or four pikes get knocked down (which is entirely plausible, in a single blow from a bihander or polearm), they're not getting picked back up anytime soon - plus, all that wood on the ground makes for utter chaos.
I agree, but think about this as well. You have a line of pikemen, many of them in tight formation. Spears or pikes or whatever extended outward. You get close......but not too close to their line and start swinging your giant blade at the closest wood to you, but not the weapon's heads. Just close enough that you're not going to be stabbed, but you can reach the shafts due to your long blade. If they keep their pikes extended and jabbing or cutting at you, the weapons are in range to be cut. If they don't keep their pikes extended and jabbing at you, they create an opening of sorts for you to walk through. So essentially, in a one on one situation you're not going to cut someone's pike or spear. In a large lineup those pole arms have a job they MUST do, to stay effective. That's where you can get multiple hits and cuts to their weapons. Faints and lunges will draw those pole arms towards you naturally. As time goes on you'll get more and more cuts over and over during the battle until they lose their weapon heads, or your sword breaks, or someone dies. So you could push pikes aside........you could cut the tips off.........it's war. Anything can happen.
Of course, for various reasons, pikes ended up losing spearheads. However, the difference is that it's not something you really go out of your way to try to do. If it happens, nice. Losing some spearheads is not the reason a pike formation gets broken though, and pikes remain to some degree effective even without the head. It's still a massive pole that can make a strong thrust.
The blade profile of a greatsword doesn't match machetes or axes though. While it can chop into wood, it won't be a very good tool for it.
"With faith and steel, we defend Sigmar's Empire!"
Ahh, the greatsword regiment :D
"With this big ass sword, I shall bring Freedom to Scotland"
-Mel Gibson
SUMMON THE ELECTOR COUNTS
For The Emperor and the Heldenhammer!
Summon the elector counts!
Hey Matt
As to the question of how Zweihänder were used: In Switzerland it is also thought that they were used against polearm blocks but the understanding here ist not that they chopped the polearms but rather knocked them out of the way. That is also supported by one of the names that those swords are known in Germany and Switzerland: "Gassenhauer" or translated "alley chopper" or "alley beater".
So as we understand it, the Doppelsöldner would be a few yards in front of your main army in a loose formation and walk into the wall of polearms opposed to you and hopefully knock every enemy weapon in front of them to the side so that their own guys could follow in the alley they made.
I sadly have no historical sources to back this claim up but it sounds logical to me and could be a good starting point for a real historian unlike me.
Cheers
Es gibt imo einen ganz guten artikel über landsknechte auf wikipedia. Es ist glaube ich leichter im ganzen bild zu erkennen weshalb welche waffe wofür benutzt wurde. In meinen augen macht es keinen sinn "elitesoldaten" vor den regulären im offenen feld laufen zu lassen wenn es schusswaffen gibt.
@@matthias1031980 Die Zeiten der Doppelsöldner waren doch vor Schusswafen oder?
@@Blaisem nein das müsste 30 jähriger krieg rum sein da gabs die schon eine weile
@@matthias1031980 Aso okay, danke.
I wonder what the use of the "Flammberge" could've been. The design of the blade is more saw-like. Maybe some kind of altered Zweihander? Designed to while knocking polearms out of the way also damaging them more than a normal Zweihander blade? But I wonder which blade has more cutting power... Maybe the Flammberge binds polearms (or possibly other weapons too) better than a straight edge Zweihander. Giving the wielder a better way of controlling the enemys weapon.
My opinion in the context of a pike block is that the two-handers (and halberds) were there for exploitation purposes. The tactical dilemma in a closely formed block of infantry is that you can't exploit the enemy's disorganization, wavering morale, loss of cohesion, what have you, without messing up your own formation and making yourself vulnerable to another block or other cavalry. What you do is send out your two-handers into a breach to rout the block. This is especially effective against a pike block since those pikes are pretty useless if they aren't mutually supporting each other. If the pikemen decide to drop their pikes to fight off the two-handers then the original formation they just came from will run them over. I also think this is essentially the same role the dane ax had in breaking shield walls. And of course you want your best and bravest men doing this job as they have to have the stones to run into an enemy formation and start laying about.
That sword was only used for duels in "Justas", dont know the english word for that.
@@Nuno_N There is evidence for greatswords being used by bodyguards, and swinging wildly to mess up the line of pikes could be pretty useful too - if you remove their ability to keep you at range and create a weakspot, the entire like of pikemen is fucked.
@Vapor cav was would never be used against pikes bud
10:24 Did Matt just reveal to us the origin of the “lone hero with a giant sword” trope found in RPGs and fantasy? Because I think he did 👏🏽
Yep... “especially against many opponents”
It makes sense.
It only makes sense in a limited context given that particular character would be near worthless in close quarters without other weapons. I'm thinking the rpg trope came from the same line as the parade version; it's bigger so it gets noticed more and looks cool
I bet Matt use the Zweihander for concealed carry
Matt opens his super dry vest out pops a 7ft flamberge sword . Screams context at would be attackers .
*The Queen's kidnapped*
"CAAAAAAPTAIN CONTEXT TO THE RESCUE!!"
Is that a sword in your pocket?
You mean he conceals himself behind the sword?
Wetcorps yes the sword carries him
"It's kinda balanced like a pole-arm in reverse"
Or, you know, like a sword...
Looks like you need at least 10 DEX to wield that beaut. But don't tell anyone you had to level it tho.
What rings you got?
And don't tell them about the Chaos stone you shoved up there either, they'll find out soon enough in their own.😈
Wat are u fukin casul
16 fkn strength
"Well! What is it?"
That fucking sword. It's just so beautiful, and SO DAMNED RIDICULOUSLY big.
I feel like I'm getting a work-out just looking at the thing.
Fire up the bass canon
That's not the feeling of a post work-out my friend... Thats the unsaid rallying cry of FREEDOM
That's Mel Gibson's sword..
Ah, my favourite weapon of all time, there's just something mystical about those fucking weapons, so imposing yet elegant at the same time. They are tragic weapons too, they have so much going on for them and yet so many issues. My take is, on the drawing board they sound like an amazing concept:
- A primary battlefield weapon that retains the aesthetics of a sword, with similar balance and handling, cut & thrust, but with more percusive power and mass for improved cutting
- It can match any other battlefield weapon, you can face any other pole-arm on equal ground AND you have a tremendous advantage over shorter weapons.
- More nimble to move than other top heavy pole-arms, with better handling and great hand protection. I can imagine a good way to face a polearm would be to snipe the hands of the user while yours stay safe behind the guard
- Large edge surface that allows flexibility for cutting, contrary to other pole-arms where you have to strike with the head which is a relatively narrow surface compared to the overall length of the weapon
- Combat flexibility, as matt said, use it like a spear in 1v1, and as a longsword against multiple opponents. You can halfsword if it fancies you
Sad reality however:
- Too expensive and time consuming to make, so much metal to work with and the maintainance.......... too much edge to take care of, and too much steel that needs oiling and cleaning
- The shaft of your halberd broke? just change it with another wooden pole. The hilt of your greatsword broke? Oh boy, you better find a blacksmith ASAP
- Battles are won by an army, not a single man. Infantry is better when deployed in formations. Greatswords are not that great in formations, I can see that big guard getting in the way and annoying your teammates, nevermind doing the full blown moulinette patterns. Even as a bodyguard you'd have to be extra careful not to hurt fellow guards, civilians or your employer in case you start swinging that thing around.
- If you're gonna use it as a spear anyway, why not get an actual spear which is way cheaper AND some spears can actually be used 1h and couple with shields
- Can't be used on horseback unlike some spears or regular swords for that matter
- Probably more easily damaged with heavy use than a polearm? I feel a halberd head would be much more sturdy than the fine profile of a greatsword blade
Summary: an amazing weapon that can do a lot in theory, but that doesn't live up to the expectation in practice. A loner's weapon that's too expensive for widespread use, too cumbersome for every day routine, too large for use in tight formations, good enough to pass by most situations but not good enough to dominate all situations, versatile in how many ways you can use it but very narrow in the actual scenarios it can truly shine, a true Jack of all trades King of nothing, and the final nail in the coffin............War is all about money, and these weapons are not good enough to justify the price, hence they were more of luxury items.
PS: I still fucking love them and they're my go-to weapon in every RPG I play.
they really arent that great against pole weapons nor theyre manouverable
yeah the center of gravity is close but its a 10lbs weapon either way
@@viciousslayer It's actually 4-6 lbs, and is very light and quick for its size.
@@andyroobrick-a-brack9355 >for its size
monster trucks are quick for their size. doesnt mean much
a single google search will tell you theyre 6.5kg usually. about twice those pounds bud.
@@viciousslayer www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html&ved=2ahUKEwiBtqbShujlAhVBn-AKHeKGCZ8QFjAFegQIDhAV&usg=AOvVaw0u-rwa2HOINhwm5SvnBcu1
If the Zweihander was above 7-8 lbs, it was for ceremonial use, not combat use.
@@viciousslayer The point of balance is incredibly important in terms of how a weapon handles, even if it's the same weight and height than another weapon. If that weren't the case then a 1kg sword would handle exactly the same as a 1kg mace, which of course is not true, hence being "quick for their size" does mean a lot. And like Andyroo Brick-a-Brack said, a 10lb greatsword is not usually a functional sword but only decorative, real exemplars are lower than that, and I would say the average is around 3-4kg, with the lowest being around 2-2.5kg and thighest not above 5-5.5kg. And to be fair pole-weapons like halberds, pole-axes, partizans, etc are the same weight but top heavy making them more dificult to swing and to recover; the only exception being spears which definetely are lighter and quicker. Matt even states this in a previous video:
/watch?v=nTXjcg0S_PI&list=FL7HANdMbNfefEUYG1zkXQkA&index=16
Check out this video too:
/watch?v=oZFEUM5fdgU&list=FL7HANdMbNfefEUYG1zkXQkA&index=10&t=159s
Now, you tell me, do you really believe a halberd could swing that fast?
So instead of dual wielding, Arthur Dayne should've been using a Zweihander.
If he just wanted to smack Ned's sword around like he did, yeah, probably. "Big fucking armor and a big fucking sword".
He did in the books.
"the longer it gets the harder it becomes..."
Oh Tod you are so naughty!
U gay fruitcake
Literally popped into the comments just to see if someone had commented this the second I heard it haha
Didn't Matt say: "Repeatedly striking someones shaft".
A bill is absolutely something a village smith could manage. The bill started its life as an agricultural tool. A billhook is used to trim branches on trees or bushes. It was basically a European machete. The weapon version undoubtedly existed as because village blacksmiths already knew how to make blades for them.
Also not to underestimate: Villavers would know how to use them! Knowing how a weapon feels, how long it is etc. seems like a big advantage you'd want to have on the side of your soldiers if they're levies rather than professionals!
Regarding its use: I recently had the opportunity to speak with a HEMA instructor who had come from a Montante workshop. His understanding of its use was that it was a bodyguards' weapon for defending the wealthy/nobility as they were traveling around town. Basically, 4 guys on each corner of the VIP, each one swinging a Montante in a continuous motion, creating a very wide circle of death for anyone daring to get close enough. Because the reach of the Montante is greater than even the longsword, anyone wanting to take down the wielder had to enter the circle of death to do so. On the workshop they tried multiple methods of attacking and countering the Montante, trying to pass it and get to the VIP. He said that even at his level of skill / knowledge / experience etc if he tried a solid guard technique with the longsword in an attempt to block or stop it, he would just get flung aside like a piece of straw, such is the momentum behind the weapon. Because of the shape of motion and the range of the blade, there weren't enough openings or enough time to reach the wielder before the sword came round again and got you one way or the other. They basically figured out there were only a few ways to defeat it, but you'd have to be mighty committed to the cause to do it e.g. self-sacrifice. Also, apparently it wasn't intended so much as an offensive weapon, more as a means of holding off any attackers long enough for the town watch to arrive and deal with the situation.
I have two people in my circle of friends who are both very experienced with longswords, but one of them also has a Zweihänder and is pretty good with it. I've seen many sparring sessions of them and they're pretty evenly matched, but when the Zweihänder comes into play, the other guy almost never wins. He finds it almost impossible to close without getting hit or countered. The old roleplaying trope about Greatswords being slow and unwieldy is crap - he's lightning quick with that thing. To be fair, he's a fairly large and muscled guy, but still.
This seems exactly in line with what you're saying. I imagine that the champion wielding the zweihander might stand behind the front line of a triangular formation, as a group pushing through the front line. Then, once the front line had managed to create a small pocket in the enemy line, he would push into that pocket and set about ending anything that moves, utterly annihilating any attempt by the enemy to maintain formation.
Matt´s back of the head is incredibly shiny at some angles...
Ya perhaps needs a Matte polish.
As for the oversized twohanders, they were Bearing Swords, used for official purposes. We have some here in Copenhagen's town hall, IIRC. As for breaking pike-formations, it seems to make sense to me that they were used to knock aside swaths of pikes at a time, and then move in and pin the pikes with the twohander if there ever was an opportunity. The twohanders seem ideal for being able to strike at the tip of the pikes without the pikes being able to reach careful dobbeltsöldner. It even makes flamberge make sense, since the depressions would help with purchase for the pikeshaft, keeping it in place.
Flamberge is for cutting like the serrations on a kitchen knife. That's the big advantage of a huge sword over a pole weapon. You can drag or push the sword over unarmoured parts of the body in close formation and cause serious wounds. The ancient Celts had spears with flamberge heads for the same reason.
@@Catubrannos Well, that doesn't answer why it isn't on any other sword from the same age. I don't think that is it.
@@Eupolemos It appeared on single swords as well. My guess is that the extra work required to make them offset any marginal benefit beyond aesthetic. They'd be a nuisance to sharpen too.
@@Catubrannos I didn't know that - other than in indo-something cultures. I'd be really, really interested if you'd be kind enough to give a historical example or two :) My google-fu is clearly failing me.
@@Eupolemos en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame-bladed_sword
Bloody hell that's quite a big sword
Look how nibley the uk guy weilds it, cant be more than 5 pounds or 2.3 kg? Maybe EVEN lighter!
That thing is as tall as Matt and Matt is like 6ft!
@@alfatazer_8991 zweihander full length at about 1.80m is actually normal
Really, people? No "that's what she said" in two weeks? I'm impressed.
Quite.
4:38 notice the hypnotic hand of Tod sliding on the ricasso of the sword. So smooth, so perfect
In Denmark we have for quite some years now have had a yearly larp where we fight in formations. The experience from that regarding the zweihänder is so far that it is a extremely effective weapon against pike blocks, IF the the men using the zweihänders are wearing at least half-plate.
We have found that formations works in counters like:
Pike beats halberd
Halberd beats swords and shield
Sword and shield beats pike
Sweihänders work best as shock troopers, 9 men with sweihänders will disrupt a pike formation of 60 men, opening up for halberds or pikes to follow up without the horrendous losses charging a pike formation would normally incur. The sweihänders even have a decent chance of survival.
Would love to watch some videos of organised formation combat
How does sword and shield counter pike on anything but battlements or other abnormal terrain? The Spanish even got rid of their Roloderos since they more often than not were crushed by the enemy pikemen and halberdiers.
Also why would the zweihander be better at opening the enemy pike formation than a halberd or other polearm that has better reach, more mass, and can hook the enemy weapons? It's telling that many of the Swiss confederation members (the best melee fighters around) banned the use of the zweihander in their pike blocks, while continuing to use halberds.
One reason that Swiss banned it if I recall, was mainly due to bias against culture than anything else.
There was a time when landschnechts, especially germans were villified by the swiss.
The banning of the use was essentially an undermining political treatise thing rather than an actual battlefield overhaul. The swiss did not like the mercenaries one damn bit.
@@TheChiconspiracy sword and shield, as several rows only armed with medium to large shields with hardend surfaces and swords can march through the pike points taking only modest losses, simply due to it being somewhat hard to stop him with only a pike.
If the shield isn't hardned, sword and shield is just about the worst possible armament.
Zweihänders are better at opening a enemy pike formation due to several reasons.
1. It is better at damaging enemy pikes.
2. You can fence with it in fairly close combat.
3. Even at merely 0,5 meters distance, a sweihänder is effective weapon.
Remember, if you have less range than the pikes you are engaging, the range of your weapon becomes far less important, because you WILL be in enemy range before you can bring the enemy into range.
By using the sweihänder to ruin the enemy pikes, or even just sweep them aside, you effectively reduces the enemy range.
@@macnof If we actually look at historical writings, the historical sources don't back up your claim for either sword and shield or the zweihander.
Every Roman source shows a failure to break a well ordered pike formation simply my marching the sword and shield units into it. They either had to wait for it to be disordered or tear it apart with missile weapons.
The Spanish tried to use their own sword and shield men, a throw back to their wars against the Moors, against the Swiss pikes in the open, and got flattened. They eventually replaced them with halberdiers and more pikemen like everyone else, since they are simply more useful.
There is very little evidence that the zweihander was simply sent out to face a pike formation and knock the pikes away, and was rather used as a support weapon like the shorter polearms were or a bodyguard weapon. Sending them specifically to damage the pike shafts would be silly, since a polearm like a halberd, volgue, guisarme, or bill would hit MUCH harder and also be able to hook the enemy weapons. The Swiss were the best melee fighters in Europe, and several cantons actually banned the use of the Zweihander for the their support troops, and only used halberds instead.
Montante is my absolute favorite thing to practice. Almost all of it is utilizing distance and momentum. I remember reading that montante is defending you or someone else until help arrives? But one issue I have is that if the blade is stopped, it takes a lot to get it moving again. A spear or poleax has reach as well but not momentum, so if you get stopped it's easier to back up and ready your guard.
Arazeal that's a valid point, yeah! I remember hearing that if your opponent grabs your pole weapon, that you'd have a dagger to use against them. I don't have any sources on any of this though. All of my information is second-hand, save for learning from the manuals for montante.
@@shoebill4887 when your blade is blocked, apply the butt... as demonstrated in Matt's bayonet videos ;)
I have question as you practicing with montante - can montante push/beat spear aside in 1v1 scenario?
Laserowy Kuba I've never had the chance to spar, I practice in my room with a wooden pole that's about 15 inches short 😅. This might just be an assumption, but yes, I would say a montante full swing could. Another question that comes to mind is the time between swings, and if a polearm could intercept the blade before the strike could properly take place. I'm not any authority on any of This mind you, I simply practice figuardo de montante.
Ah. I only seen one sparring of greatsword vs spear on "Greg Fasolino" channel. I guess safety reasons is what keep people out from sparrings with montante often - swings with full force cannot be done and therefore greatsword losing one of its big advantage...
I don't know enough to say with certainty, but I don't know that you necessarily need to cut or break the pikes for a greatsword to be good for breaking up pike formation. That might be ideal, but as long as the pikes are being forced right or left or down, then you're creating a hole that men can then pour through. You do of course have multiple rows of pike points going in front of the block, which would be very dangerous for the man with the greatsword, but that's why he's paid double. Just a thought.
What were these for? Shrek: "Do ya think he's compensating for something? “
Big sword to compensate MONSTER WHITE COCK obviously
one of the best videos yourself or todd have made. extremely detailed discussion. very easy listening but so so interesting. please do more. the expertise you each bring make for a great chemistry where you bounce of each other ideas very pleasantly.
Must be a good rave going on in that workshop
That or it's haunted.
No there is a shit load of people in there that just ate sum red rye in full plate and bard playing his heart out in there .
I suspect that this man has decorated his cottage as a blacksmith's workshop for the upcoming Halloween.
The emperor protects :)
It is filmed in the UK with an american camera.
It has to do with the electric grid not syncing up with the camera filming.
Have you found that with the zweihander, it is kind of more like working with a dancing partner rather than an extension of the body?
The few times I've worked with them, I found myself moving with the sword, rather than just moving the sword around like you do with a long sword.
This is something I wish people would keep in mind when they depict giant weapons or super strength. Even if you can lift a bus, it still weighs more than you. Even if someone is stronger but much smaller, you should still be able to lift them and chuck them (for example Terminator 3).
I just must point out that this video looks great. Especially the color correction makes it look fresh and gorgeous. The depth of field was spot on. Kudos to whomever was behind the camera.
I am german. Learned another name for the great two handed sword ;) . Gassenhauer. A "Gasse" is like a narrow path. Old citys had many "Gassen". Narrow path.
This can also be applyed to hit an ally(google translation) through the woods or through high gras. Maybe usefull. Cool video.
manuel maßmann this name comes directly from the maneuver of hacking „Gassen“ into enemy formations.
@@Fritz-the-Brat das, wollt ich auch damit sagen ;)
I love both those translations.
Isn t it also a type of song?
@@junichiroyamashita yeah. Gassenhauer are songs for lower class citizen. kind of. workers in bars for example. So the conection to fight within a small ally or to create a ally by applaing force is still there, asuming the idea of workers beeing more physical in confersation ;)
I've never bought the "chopping pike heads off" claims. Now sweeping a large number of opposing pike out of line during a push.
Also it's just an intimidating bugger.
Fast, really fast.
A sergeant behind you with one of those would be quite "motivating".
I heard claims of one man beheading his enemy, his enemy's weapon and his enemy's horse in just one cut.
As reasonable as this sounds, I can't help but have doubts in that account's accuracy. ;)
Infuse it with a chaos gem ... Trust me it's good. Giant dad told me.
Sonnet of the wretched was looking for this
*"Giants, giants giants! Become unstopable!"*
I've found my people! Praise the sun!
Where is the zweihander?
Who is the zweihander?
Ill do you one better, WHY is the zweihander?
Zweihanders are their own reward.
they never ask HOW is the Zweihänder...
Nice try, Drax
Zweihander is the person who has his both hands intact.
He/She/It is the Zweihänder !!
My two favorite UA-camrs in one show! Fantastic!
Think about what happens when two pike squares meet each other. If neither side loses its nerve, do they just crash into each other? Probably not, unless they're suicidally brave, because it would be a bloodbath for the guys in the first few ranks. So they probably slow down and end up jabbing at each other just out of measure. You could see, in that situation, calling up some guys with zweihanders from inside the square to bash their way through the enemy formation and break the stalemate. They're not there to physically break the pikes, but to break the enemy formation. Some pike formations call for halberdiers in the centre of the square, likely for the same purpose. At least, that's my theory and I'm happy to be corrected.
It was undoubtedly a feature of the landsknecht pike square that made the unit so effective. One thing to think about as well is that the landsknechts were not always (usually were not) fighting a unit that was identical to their own. They may have been pikemen, but had no where near the discipline and training that the landsknechts maintained. The discipline of individual pikemen in a landsknecht unit was exceptional compared to other pikemen. As far as the "wall of death" that you refer to, the men in landsknecht units were often prepared to take battle to that violent extreme and their courage to do so usually made them successful. Old landsknecht songs often refer to "die verlornen haufen", the "lost unit" of men who had to take on the suicidal task of being in frontline positions, an unfortunate reality of the kind of combat they were forced to wage.
"For now the baron's two-handed sword was hissing ominously through the air,
describing flashing circles above the baron's head. It was an awe-inspiring
sight. The baron reminded Rumata of a freight helicopter with idly spinning
rotary blades." (c) Arcady and Boris Strugatsky, "It is hard to be a god".
01:20: "...the longer you get, the harder it becomes." So true.
Damn that sword is a work of art. Quite the Beauty.
I imagine these great swords being able to break formations of pikemen instead of the pikes. Just think about it, in a formation of pikemen each carrying 15 or 16 feet pikes a smaller(relatively) weapon with massive sweeps could bash the cumbersome pikes away long enough for the soldiers using said smaller weapons to close the distance and kill the pikemen. Pikes being larger than your typical spears means the soldiers using them can not easily shorten their reach by going down the shaft, also if you tried to do that you'd be hitting the guys behind you with the shaft, essentially making pikes useless at close quarters. Also pikes would be more topheavy and imbalanced simply because of their size and thus would be hard to maneuver, especially in a tight formation. In this case the sword would beat the polearm. Ironic cause the same reach that would give a polearm its advantage against a sword would become its greatest weakness here.
Once the distance is closed, the pikemen would have to resort to secondary weapons which I believe would be longswords or maces or warhammers, which would have shorter reach than the greatswords and would be defeated by the soldiers using greatswords if the greatsword wielders started using their swords like spears at close quarters and because of the reach the battle would be similar to short sword versus spear where maces and longswords would be shorter than the spear like greatswords.
In short, I believe greatswords would break pike formations because they are *SHORTER,* more maneuverable and can make big sweeps all at the same time. And once the pikemen switch to their secondary weapons which would be shorter than greatswords, greatswords would win because of them being *LONGER* and massive, really fascinating if you think about it, because greatswords would counter both weapons too long and weapons too short.
5:42 - 'When you're *bound* with another person's weapon'. Past participle! Ah, thank you Matt. :-)
Man Tod is an absolute master sword smith, that zweihander is beautiful. The twisted pommel, the twisted cross guards and rings, the pattern on the grip, they way the spokes blend right into the blade. It's perfect.
The Zweihander-as-area-denial makes a lot of sense. One can only imagine how utterly terrifying it would be to see someone swinging something like that around; I can imagine conscripts panicking and running from the crazy guy with a sword taller than he is.
You guys are making it increasingly difficult to sustain my suspension of disbelief while playing Dungeons and Dragons. And I'm already having troubles accepting lit torches inside and using a sweihander in a narrow corridor.
@Frida Bergholtz, I understand you so much that I had to write my own RPG after seeing that kind of videos... DMing now is a lot funnier and the players like it too.
Greetings from France.
This is a more 1 on 1 oriented weapon than a proper battlefield. It can be used as a sword. Spear. And hammer. Just imagine how effective a murder stroke with that monster would be. Itd make a great anti armor weapon in a pinch.
Also gets annoying that longswords are categorically called bastard swords or Zweihänder while arming swords are called longswords.
However I don't really see these things as big problems because fantasy and stuff.
@@ZenoDovahkiin that's something i give credit to chivalry medical warfare for. You can actually use the longsword 1 or 2 handed.
@@ZenoDovahkiin Well that's just a matter of using the wrong names for things. It doesn't affect my immersion while playing. I don't have a problem with fantastic things in fantasy but when the mundane things does not line up with my personal experience or knowledge it has the potential of breaking my immersion.
Also for the record. The longs sword as it is described in later editions of Dungeons and Dragons actually works rather well being called a longsword because you can use it with one hand or two hands as you please. The shortsword works well as an arming sword, the greatsword is any large sword that you have to use with two hands and the bastard sword has been thrown out. All in all the classifications are good enough for me.
Don't get me started on the armour though...
*as he explains how the handguard gets in the way*
Me: I see. Although if I wanted to I think I would reverse my grip.
*reverses grip*
Me: *surprised pikachu face*
Man, carrying it in a scabbard at the hip would be a real drag.
Unfortunately they never carried on a hip, rarely to never in a scabbard too. They where carried on a shoulder.
Very informative video by two guys who know their stuff. Thanks!
Take one guy who's the top percentile of physical strength and size.
Call him your "champion".
Dress him up in a harness that makes him impervious to cuts and thrusts.
Zweihander.
Spin to win.
UA-cam seems to tell me to coming back to this to improve my MORDHAU skills
1v1 me
It may be childish. But I still find it entertaining that you have two guys talking about holding their swords and shafts with each other.
Enormously intriguing discussion! Makes a ton of sense. Thank you sirs!
good god is the zweihander the most bad ass weapon ever? maybe i've just played too much darksouls but damn that sword is so sick
My own interpretation of greatsword versus pike wasn't that greatsworder was breaking the pikes, but that he was breaking their formation, possibly to allow him to penetrate it and cut through it, or to allow others to get into the formation and deal with it. Though I hadn't considered the possibility of the greatsword as an area denial weapon.
One of the most beautiful swords I have ever seen!
Looking for some knowledge on a bladed topic, you see Matthew and Tod and you know immediately that this video with be worth every second of your time.
And...what a BEAUTY this sword is!!! 😍🤩
Great bit of history thanks
I've wanted to know about the Spear vs. The Spear-Sword since forever!
Thanks for the video, this is really fascinating. I hope you'll both talk more about these things in the future.
So in summary, you have a Zweihander to be a total troll on the battlefield
We do a little trolling
Hello! I have a quick question about an alternative for how these swords might also have been used. When teaching techniques for Nodachi vs. Yari, we explore striking the head end of the spear to the side then making a powerful downward stroke to the center line. The idea being that the spearman will most likely be required to raise the haft of the yari to block. While it might be possible, though unlikely, to sever the haft, the main objective is to use the mass of the Nodachi to set the spearman on his heels for an "easy" follow-up. Could this also be a viable for the Zweihander? This type of application might account for its reputation vs. spears and pikes.
Not to knock you but think about this. Trying that against an intact pike formation where there are several ranks of pike points being presented is probably going to have you knocking one aside while one his mates thrusts right into you. You aren't just dealing with one rank at a time. Much like a musket volley with 2 ranks firing, the 2nd rank is firing over the shoulder of the first rank. That is what made the Pike block so difficult to deal with : the armed density along the frontage. What you are suggesting makes more sense once the pike block has started taking casualties and the follow on ranks have had to step in and replace men who have fallen. No matter how good you are with a sword, the pikes have a reach advantage and you are vulnerable to multiple pike thrusts while trying to force that one off line.
What you are talking about is more appropriate to single combat i.e a duel or when the other side's formation has opened up. As long as the formation is intact, it is about teamwork as opposed to skill and individual tactics. The first pike man doesn't necessarily have to block your sword as long as the next two ranks are presenting their points. Martial arts, Asian or European, teach weapon use in the context of single combat not battlefield use.
How does fighting with and using European greatsword compare with the use of oversized swords in Japanese martial arts: Zanbato, Odachi, Nagamaki? Are there other cultures which used such large swords (though that requires good steel, and good blacksmithing techniques)?
This channel is pure gold. Thanks.
Thank you so much for such a wonderful, insightful and relaxing video. This, a cup of coffee, great way to relax.
Hmm, yeah it makes way more sense to fight pike blocks with shields instead of zweihanders. Because really, fighting a pike seems like just an issue of getting past the points, once you've done that you can run up and just stab the pikemen. A zweihander sounds like a dangerous way to get past points, and more of a nuisance than a benefit once you're through.
The problem is that there isn't a single row of points. For long pikes you'd have to go through 4 or 5 rows of points
In that case, there's even more reason to prefer a shield.
@@daaaah_whoosh no, that's the reason you also use a long pike.
I mean, a pike doesn't help you get past pikes, it just keeps the pikemen from getting close enough to stab you. Really the best weapon against pikes would be a gun, or a cannon. All I'm saying is that if you want to get right into the middle of a pike block (as many people believe the zweihander was designed to do) the sword and shield is a better option than a zweihander is.
A full or 3/4 suit of armor is as good as a shield in most circumstances
The Zweihander is one of my favorite swords!... though, one question, as a 6'1" guy, would I need to have a custom one made for me? or is there a standard length for one?
Raster1990 Matt is aroud that height I believe, maybe a bit taller so I don’t think your gonna need a custom made at your height.
I am the same height. The swords all vary in height and so did the people using them.
Ah, cool! Many thanks!
The middle ages aren't exactly a time of mass production, and the DIN didn't exist back then.
@@ZenoDovahkiin Sorry about my ignorance, but what is "DIN"?
I own a real antique 16th C two handed sword (Italian and massive at 185 cm) and personally I feel that it is completely functional to wield with your front hand forward of the cross guard but behind the lugs. My antique also has leather on the blade down to 12 cm forward of the lugs and the rings on mine are considerable smaller than those on the one used in your video. Hence I am convinced that this was a primary function of the lugs and is very practical. It also gives you increased control, leverage and agility over holding it with both hands behind the cross guard at the cost of percussive power in the cut.
For what it is worth, those are my observations as a collector who owns an antique two handed sword and HEMA practitioner.
Also if you search for images of Zweihanders, the lugs are further down the blade than the sword shown in this video (as well as having smaller hand guards)
@@EinBaseler Excellent points, the lugs on my 16th C antique sword are further forward than those on Tod's replica (giving more room for the hands forward of the quillions). There is definitely differences between antique weapons but generally I would think that Tod's replica's rings are definitely on the large size and his lugs are further back towards the quillions than most historical swords. Not to say that his replica is inaccurate or ahistorical.
It looks like the world's quietest techno rave is going on in that building.
Is there a strobe light or a disco party going on in the building?
N Hosto ceiling fan?
First Ad I've seen in Europe. Hope you got paid.
This is great you two together should make a show out of it
The information in this video has greatly enriched my life. So helpful.......
Yes but who is Hans, and why do you guard him
BUT .... can you unscrew the pommel ??
*3kg pommel comes flying out of the crowd*
@@maxwell5081 gotta end em rightly
The "musket with bayonet comment" really got me thinking.
My experience of charging pike blocks has taught me something.
They are 2 + meters away from you, and they are stabbing you.
A zweihander has the power to deliver a huge amount of momentum into a pike thats pointing at you. When you hit that pike head, there will be a much longer leaver between the head and the pikemans forehand. This means that it is very hard for the pikeman to control the tip of his pike.
My impression is that a zweihander may be able to sweep the pikes out of the way, so you can close. Because pikes are so long, and in formation you can only draw them back so far, once you have got past the first rows pikes they can't effectively attack you with them, but you could sweep the second rows pikes out of the way and so on.
This is going to be terrifying for the guys in the front row because their whole battle plan revolves around the enemy never closing to within 2 meters.
How would this swords useage be compared to the Scottish claymore?
That's something I'm wondering as well; especially since claymores, as far as I can tell, were usually smaller; somewhere between a longsword and these big greatswords.
@@matthewmuir8884 i think claymores were used like regular longswords, after all claymores don't differ much from longswords, it's just a bunch of stylistic things that tells that that longsword cones from Scotland.
@ARX 351 Perhaps. But that wouldn't explain why most versions I've seen have a longer grip, a bit longer blade, and a fair bit more weight (I know Wikipedia is not exactly the most reliable source; I'm just giving it as one example of several things I've seen online, say the average weight was about 5 - 6 pounds, compared to the 2.5 - 4 pounds of a longsword).
I came to think a while ago that big two handed swords can be used in 3 ways: to mess up pike formations (german zweihander), for crowd and space control (hispanic montante) and for shock infantry charges (scottish claymore).
In the British isles the english had the best cavalry and, by sheer logic, if the english had it, the scottish didn't. So, in order to compensate for this, they developed schiltrons to stop cavalry and big longswords to condensate the mass and impact of a knight formation charging at full speed inside a footmen size. Imagine a line of highlanders with claymores up high over their heads ready to smash your head or shoulders and actually keeping the ground after the initial shock (something riders cannot do for when they get idle they become easy prey) and remember the LoTR movie charge of the rohirrim in the fields of Pelennor with horses smashing through orcs lines. Perhaps that's the point of having great swords up in the Highlands.
Well I think that the claymore was smaller due to the style of Highland warfare during the 16th century. That style was lighting fast raids against enemy clans, so a massive zweihander may not be optimal. With that said I'm not saying zweihanders were slow or poor weapons, I just believe that Highland warfare may be to static for a zweihander size sword. Also the two handed claymore seems to be the weapon of clan chieftains or champions rather than the common Highland soldier, so a smaller two handed sword may be more useful to counter enemy fighters.
Double pay hype.
To counter the tight pike formation, these and other great swords were used to deflect / redirect the enemy pikes in order to create an opening, allowing the swordsman to close on the enemy formation and engaging them at close range , cutting them down or forcing the enemy ranks to drop their now "useless " pikes to reach for their secondary weapon (knife). In doing so, the entire formation is destroyed.
Brilliant tactic.
I have read that at the battle of Falkirk (William Wallce's last battle) the opening round was a duel with a German mercenary for the English who was like a Doppelsöldner with a Zweihander vs a Scot with the then out of date two handed Claymore. The exhibition round ended when one of the men off off the other's calf
Matt was the Zweilhander an anti cavalry weapon ?
Swiss multitool
Not likely. Pole arms are much better and we see in Japan and China such swords were short lived in favour of polearms.
@@TheLiamis polearms can't cut off horses legs so effectively
why would a sword be better at chopping of limbs than a pollaxe or a halberd of similar length?
@@commonpepe2270 because it's a sword? And has long sharp edge instead of shorr one
Send that sword back to Dark Souls
"A polearm in reverse." My favorite example is the Warhammer Estoc. It's got a hammer, and bec du corbin, instead of quillions. So, it can be used as a polearm. (Also the usual stabby spike, but on the other end of a shorter grip, and quite a bit longer.) Some of them also had Musket Rests instead of a pommel, so basically the Swiss Army Sword. They were designed as a battlefield multitool, and even locked in to another weapon, as an accessory. Right there is where the line between a longsword, and polearm is completely obscured by overlap. I love those, by the way. I made one, with a boar spear point on the stabby end. (No stopping lugs, though. Nor musket rest, the pommel was shaped like a fist.)
I think the slight incentive a Zweihander has over a polearm is just the sheer amount of cutting surface that the damn thing has.
Mordhau gang Mordhau gang
In short: Zweihanders were invented to outfit Gregor Clegane. ;)
I had read previously the Swordsmen worked together with billmen who would scoop up the pikes allowing the men with Zweihanders to run underneath and cut the pikemen down.
As I understand it the Doppelsöldner often guarded the colores.
If the formations of two pike blocks in combat breaks up, the pikemen would often drop the pikes and draw sidearms. A zweihänder would be a pretty effective weapon in a disordered fight where the enemy is armed with one handed swords and unarmoured on legs and arms.
Fuirst
Yues
Fauchard I mean for sure.
Dark souls
I came here for a death match but stayed for the information
That light in the house/workshop in the background is going off and on like mad.
It's been said here, but the way I see it, being a pike-breaker was less about breaking the pikes themselves, and more about breaking the formation. The goal being to knock pikes aside, slip into the shaft forest, and get close enough to take out some enemy pikemen, creating large holes in their formation.
The lugs look like excellent deflectors. Where a slide down the blade hits them and bounces away harmlessly.
Nice insight about the secondary crossguards.
My landsknecht group did some experiments with this. Using a blunted sharp flamberge against 12 foot ash pikes. Hitting the pike at a 90° angle, it just pushed it out of line. Connecting at a 45° angle directed away from the opponent though? Even the blunted edge at half speed cut a half inch into the haft. So yes, in ideal circumstances, I believe a sharp great sword can definitely take the head off a pike.
But ideal circumstances rarely offer themselves in battle...
That being said, let's take a look at pike square formation. Each column of men were essentially locked, hip to hip, pushing as one in a straight line. Now, there's a simple physics experiment taught to children: Put a paper plate on the ground, have two or three adults hold a broom handle, pushing hard towards the plate. A child can easily push the broom handle off line with a single finger. The Dopplesöldner is that child's finger. A few of those crazy folks can create some serious havoc interspersed along the front line until killed or run off...