From Activist to Apostate-A Twisty-Turny "Gender Journey," with Tali | Episode 181
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Tali shares her journey from an ardent activist deeply immersed in gender and identity politics to someone questioning and ultimately walking away from the dogmatic beliefs she once held. Her story is a roller coaster of conviction, self-discovery, and transformation, particularly as she navigates the complexities of having encouraged her wife towards a trans identity of her own.
Listeners will gain insight into the mindset of passionate activists, the impact of societal pressures on personal identity, and the challenges of disentangling oneself from groupthink. This episode offers a glimpse into the delicate process of questioning deeply held beliefs and the reflection and critical thought essential for shifting perspectives.
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If you liked this episode, more episodes you might find interesting include:
Episode 71 - Gender: The American State of Affairs w Jesse Singal
• EPISODE 71 - Gender: T...
Episode 130 - Katie Herzog: Unblocked & Recorded
• EP 130: Katie Herzog: ...
Episode 152 - Trapped in a Language Cul-De-Sac with Kathleen Stock
• EP 152: Trapped in a L...
Episode 172 - Arielle Isaac Norman Knows More Than Dave Chappelle
• Arielle Isaac Norman K...
Extremism in All of Its Forms Is a Pathway to Hell - Jamie Reed (presentation from Genspect’s The Bigger Picture Conference, November 2023, Denver, USA) • Extremism in All of It...
When I was going to University in the 1980s and was studying human development I couldn’t have predicted how much what I studied would come into direct conflict with the concept of gender affirming care and trans ideologies. This program has saved my sanity in many ways. Tali’s experience of how she became an activist and then struggling with her ideology when she saw it was not supported with research was enlightening to me.
I believe that there is always at least 2 sides to any story and Tali story is important to hear.
Interesting, I took a human development course in the early 90s, and the professor spent a lot of time covering sex determination and disorders of sexual development, insisting we not use the obsolete term “intersex,” and to not use “gender” when talking about “sex.”
I also had an English prof who had formerly been in Women's Studies, but left when the department was turned into Gender Studies. She introduced us to Andrea Dworkin, learned about how the transsexuals invading feminist conferences and bullied the women into accepting them. She also had us read eyewitness accounts of the Stonewall Riots and Janice Raymond’s _Transgender Empire_
I'm 27 min in. The discussion on micro aggressions is giving me horrid flashbacks of 2016, where I lost many friends and was publicly shamed all over the place. It was a very hard time for me. I’m a children’s book author and didn’t know yet that I wasn’t allowed to say certain things or argue with certain people. The big topic in my industry was “stay in your lane.” So if I, as a white (Irish decent) author, was to write about a black person, then I would deserve to be attacked so badly, that my book would get pulled from publication (this happened to other authors during this time period). Unfortunately, the most nasty amongst the authors, those who I’d deem to have personality disorders, were the ones who rose to the top and got all the media attention for being “good” people by shutting down conversation. I'm very glad this person has realized where she went wrong. Sadly, colleges are still at churning out activists whose main goals are to destroy others in the name of intersectionality and “justice."
I too experienced a horrible run in a with an activist in 2016, the year I moved to New York after living in Paris (where woke ideology/ gender-queer-they/them / hyper fixation on race was not a thing) and lost all my friends for questioning what these terms such as 'white privilege', cultural appropriation, gender identity really meant. It was incredibly troubling to find these kinds of ideologies being accepted as 'fact' when they're merely new trendy ideas, and even worse, asking questions or challenging the validity of them makes you a hateful bigot. I too was told what I am allowed to make art about as a white cis person. I called bs on it then, grieved the loss of my friends, and now finally I feel some sense of vindication when I hear these women speak. I know I'm not coming from a place of hate when I question these things. I saw then as I can see now that these ideas are radical and have potentially dangerous effects. Thank you Sasha and Stella, youre my heros
@@studioclairobscur I also live in nyc. It’s probably one of the worse places to be for this kind of thing. I’m in a weird place now- I had to make all new friends but then over a dozen of them fled during the pandemic. I lost all of my really close friends (over 20 years!) and I do sometimes miss them. But they’d become intolerable and intolerant- all in the name of “tolerance.” What kind of art do you do?
🤗
@@studioclairobscur it's the horrifying realization that the vagueness and lacking coherent definitions of concepts central to the ideology is intentional, because the real goal is accumulation of power by providing a pretext for sociopathic bullying within institutional contexts.
Great point about the microaggression/grievance collection issue. Working with wokesters is torture because they filter every word and deed to find the least charitable interpretation and decide it MUST be what you "really" mean.
Microaggressions require 'Micro-management'. That's my problem. 🐿
It's like handing someone a pamphlet on how to become a narcissist
Apart from anything else, i want to give kudos to all those who don't remain ideologically entrenched and those still capable of changing their minds. And especially you Tali. You're a hero in that respect. I loved hearing your story and personal growth. You are a great ambassador and role model for your generation and beyond. ❤❤❤❤❤
The point Tali made about the better adjusted trans people who accept the full reality as much as they can by not resisting the fact of their innate maleness or femaleness resonated with me. I've noticed this also. So much suffering comes from resistance to what is here.
About 26m in: I have a handful of anecdotes that I rely on too hard - one of them is about a woman who made my working life v difficult because she had issues connected to her ID as a mother (it made her superior) and a dislike of young women in the field (a caring one) - she was belittling and dismissive and aggressive to the point that I questioned myself and my ability to make basic decisions. Spotting microaggressions feels to me like the same process, but it's internal, and harder to avoid once the habit is ingrained. I left that job and realised I had basically had a real number done on me. New role was more challenging, the kids were a cohort that many adults wouldn't go near, and I excelled there. I loved it. I was better at my job than I even realised. Walking around feeling like everything you do will be hated by someone else is wholly destructive. Looking for microagressions everywhere ruins your capacity to thrive.
Ugh I have soooooo been on the receiving end of an older, disapproving, girl/women in so many chapters of my life. The way women compete and divide across the generations is very unhealthy.
I loved this conversation ❤️ What a tough spot to be in. I felt this way when I started walking backwards and realised I'd emphasised this part of myself so loudly, and convinced family members to be pro trans because of conversations we had and what I now know is false information, that I was receiving as fact. Once again love this podcast and the conversations 🫶🏻
One of your finest and hopeful interviews.
Much thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it!
I can relate to her devastation when your community abandons you for propaganda. When I left the Democratic Party and questioned the defund the police movement I was ostracized by those around me.
🤗
What stands out to me by about ten minutes in: she's in college, away from home, and starting to have intimate relationships with other girls/women. But the word she uses to describe it is queer, not lesbian. What does that tell us? What does queer say that lesbian doesn't? Was she not a lesbian, but queer? What would queer add to the lesbian aspect of her life? You see, queer must offer this generation of young people something that homosexuality just doesn't offer. Evidently, gay and lesbian are considered boomer terms now, not cool any more.
If only they could be shown how anti gay and anti woman it was! I'm not convinced a lot of people really understand what "queering" is, the ideology.
She was (and is) technically bisexual, which isn't the same as lesbian. (And yes, I know that many lesbians claim to be bi for a very long time after they have had sex with a man, but I'm taking what she said at face value.)
@@AndyJarman Absolutely!~ they are in a 'bubble' of shiny happy 'it's all good' Queers & admonished for stating the obvious about biological sex & same-sex attraction.
I don't understand what the difference is from her saying queer or lesbian. Where i come from the word queer is used alot when talking about anyone or thing that is strange, unusual or differrant. We say he's a queer fella or she's a queer wan. And then queer is sometimes used to decribe a feminine gay man or masculine gay woman too but more so as an insult like go way you you fecking queer.
So when she is saying queer places and people does she mean different from where she came from or what she was used to or....
It's not that deep, it's just a change in terminology. Queer to them is the term for all of it.
I'm not sure what I think about this discussion. It is very interesting, but I also feel that Tali was manipulative to the point of almost destroying her relationship.
I'm an older butch lesbian and this discussion rubbed me the wrong way somehow and left me feeling angry.
I felt the same. Her wife comes across as so passive and just going along with such extreme things like changing gender. And Tali changing her social media bio wouldn’t be taken well by most partners.
I think that's fair! I appreciate where you're coming from. My wife knows all of this now, and she is glad that I did what I did because it ultimately prevented her from taking testosterone. It's sneaky and dishonest. I weighed that against her going further down the trans road. Was honest as soon as she came out of the ideology. Not recommending my specific behavior, just sharing the truth of my story. None of this ruined our relationship. Just celebrated our wedding anniversary. Happy ending as far as I'm concerned.
@@talibotz. I’m married over 40 years to a Bronx-born Jew (m) whose mental health has always been much sturdier than my own. However, I am a strong willed woman, tho a little crazy at times. There have been instances over the decades when he has done the sort of things you did with your wife (the pronouns, the cell phone etc.) when he felt, knowing me as well as he does, that I was in ‘danger.’ I’m not going to tell you it was a completely welcome intervention/manipulation, but I understood his motivation and we worked through it. Ultimately his actions signaled to me that I had to rethink & work through the storm in my head. Just as my husband did, you had good instincts & were being protective of someone you love. I’m happy you are together in a good place now.
Great conversation, that will be so reassuring for other trans widows/widowers. Must have been very gratifying for Stella and Sasha to hear this podcast was instrumental in waking someone up. One soul at a time.
You don't mean 'inverted souls' do you? (winky smiley) Because the trans peeps use the term 'Inverted Soul' from an 1880s psychologist to justify being in the "wrong body". It's patently absurd. Yes, people in general need to wake up!
I find it very odd that the most radical, cutting-edge, youth activism of today is so on board with becoming a medical patient for the rest of one's life. Especially when it's not necessary. My political radicalization started in college in the 1970s. At that time, feminists and other Leftists were very critical of the medical establishment and psychiatry, I find it very baffling also that many young people are so identified with their diagnoses, almost like a badge.
To me, the trans narrative of "born in the wrong body" is not radical at all, but regressive. There are no wrong bodies.
This!
Yes, it does seem rather like one of many reversals.
The anti- psychiatry movement (eg "Mad In America" and UK equivalents) seem to have shifted from the medical model to a blank slate progressivism 'someone in power did bad things to you that's why you're the way you are' model, backed up entirely by Intersectional Feminism.
Loved this episode, and what a great choice for a guest! I really appreciate how Tali was able to tell her story with outstanding humility, and also use her knowledge in and of psychology to touch on concepts like rumination, cognitive distortions, and also how some of the concepts of CRT have influenced psychological measurements. Also, Stella: "transgress" to "aggress" - I had a wonderful laugh :)
I remember those 'if you're voting for... The date is...' posts 😆 ah, this a trip down my former woke stomping ground memory lanes. I need to actually speak to more people who were in this and woke up from it. If anyone was in right-on crunchy parenting groups from 2013 onwards, hit me up 😆
Gotta be rough for kids. Glad u made it out..for them
I don’t believe micro aggressions exist. Every example I’ve ever been given is just an example of someone twisting the meaning of another’s words to choose to be offended.
The point of microaggressions is to institute micromanagement. 🐿
@@Knuck_Knucks🎯
And to create a state of hypervigilance (one of the symptoms of trauma) thus masking trauma and reverse-engineering it
She is lucky her wife stayed with her after all that. Thank god she woke up before she took it too far.
I have found this program very insightful but I can’t agree that the gender critical approach trying to protect women’s spaces is simply victim hood. It is trying to protect women.
I totally agree.
It's often a lot of man-hating from previous gender Wokeness (ie feminism) cults.
yes, that struck me too. also calling that 'radical feminism' within the gc umbrella (for want of a better phrase for the grouping), when most aren't radical at all. which is of course fine! just a bugbear of mine that no one wants to use the phrase radical feminist even slightly accurately! 😛😛
It's because the original anti trans feminist movement was run by radical feminists. It's in the term TERF, which they created for themselves decades ago. I clashed with those people as a survivor of feminist abuse and young trans man (recently detrans). So this new wave of "gender critical" people are adopting a movement they know nothing about.
I thought this was a great and honest conversation. Since beginning to question everything, I put no weight in the argument 'I know so much more, I know I'm right' thing. (Specifically talking about Middle East issues that came up from Tali's perspective) I did keep listening, because I also have unpopular views and wish more people had the time and interest to let those conversations have some light... one of them is "gender ideology"! So, I'm grateful to all for their time and stories, whether or not I agree with all views expressed.
Yes, and absolutely no push back from the other two. No questioning, even?
I want this comment to come out friendly and open to Tali's journey, I hope it does! I found this so fascinating because to me, being a Zionist is another form of identity politics, like trans, blm, etc, where the basic formula is "our group x deserves special dispensation because we've suffered so deeply". but for Tali, Zionism is what got her out of the hypnotism of the other politics she was practicing! Soo interesting. Tali, if you read this I wish you all the best and may you go the best place for yourself in your process.
Yes. I find it curious that many who publicaly oppose gender ideology are also conflating the genderists activism on Israel-Gaza with their wrongness. And the proIsrael folks are using the exact same grievance and victim language for assertion of moral authority and deference. The activists are extremist in their beliefs but one doesn't have to swing to the other end in order to step out of activism. In a way, it is still participating in the binary thinking that activists practice.
While some political groups in Israel use a language of privilege-rooted not in suffering but in religion-to justify their actions, Zionism itself is not a demand for special dispensation. Rather, it is the acknowledgment that Jews are entitled to a state of their own, where they can defend themselves and maintain their cultural identity-in other words, a nationalist movement. Unlike other nationalist movements, Zionism was motivated by the need to secure a safe and sovereign homeland in response to centuries of antisemitism and persecution. However, it shares the fundamental premise of any nationalist movement.
Although I don't consider myself a Zionist (despite being born and living in Israel), like Tali, I was shocked to discover the shallowness and ignorance within WOKE groups regarding the complex and tragic Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This realization has made me more critical of other aspects of their belief system.
@@tamarpeleg7452 hi Tamar. thank you for your reply. i'm not jewish but i used to live in Israel for a few years when i was a teenager. i hope you and yours are all safe and well
@@tamarpeleg7452💯
I’m very confused by your view of what Zionism is. I don’t think nationalism or claiming a homeland can be called an identity. Surely the identity would be being Jewish (since people can claim to be culturally Jewish, or Jewish through heritage, or of the Jewish religion) and if you assert that being Jewish means you’re a victim deserving special treatment, that would take that into identity politics.
Zionism is a political stance. Someone who identifies as Jewish might be a Zionist or might not be. Someone who isn’t Jewish could be a Zionist.
For example, David Baddiel has claimed that Jews have missed out in identity politics by not having their victimhood recognised. He has also made it clear that he’s not a Zionist.
Stella: "Don't stop her! She's going to blow steam up our skirts." 😂I just adore y'all. Thank you, as always, for the tremendously important work you're daring to do.
29:50 everybody (or every second person I talk to) has had gender distress.... you don't even need to be homosexual. It's puberty or philosophical perception. So what, never fall for this academic mirage...
Yup, it's effectively a Barnum Statement
I suffered pain and body horror from a very young age, seeing parts of my body as mutilated and alien. Extremely horrifying. Please do not reduce the extremity of the pain transgender people suffer. It is no joke.
I suffered extreme pain and body horror from a very young age. It was traumatizing to be transgender, parts of my body looked and felt physically, barbarically mutilated. Please do not reduce the suffering and horror transgender people experience.
@@anewagora i suffer extremely from having a good muffin-top and not looking like an Adonis. I have a potpourri of psychiatric disorders diagnoses yet I am highly functional. I wish I'd had a "normal" psyche like my friends, but most of the time constant inhibited suicidal ideation it is for me instead. Oh, and recently my starting male pattern hair loss..!
People have asymmetrical faces, incurable chronic physical pain!... chronic fatigue syndrome, unsatisfying micro penises, missing limbs by birth or caused by an accident, cognitive disabilities they are aware of in many interactions where they feel like in the wrong body and in all these cases hate it to an almost insufferable extent like trans people in many cases might.
All of us would want out of our pains and therefore bodies the way they are. Sometimes we need to cope or integrate it. Sometimes people with all of the above issues or others kill themselves. Your cohort not to a higher extent than some other psychiatric patient cohorts. Acceptance of the reality you didn't wish for 'd be my way to go. And not attempting impossible operations on public Healthcare's dime plus in many everyday cases implicit lying about one's sex and history.
Still, all the love and health to you, best wishes.
The description she gave of her wife describes many women, especially tomboys. I had many of those same feelings growing up. I still struggle because I’m not very good at the girly stuff. I’m straight, married and have six children. One of my daughters is just like I am. The term body dysphoria seems to be too broad of a term.
I'm really glad you didn't go down a road that harmed your or your body, and wish you the best feeling not good at the girly stuff! I'm a hetero cis guy, and I'm terrible at the boy stuff. oh well!
I think non-fem women, straight or lesbian are great! I can relax and connect with them, hypersexualised women are so boring and self conscious. They are so much more fun.
Ironically, we need more words. And not all the words that are in gender ideology. More reasons for distress in womanhood.
I felt like this too. It's not that I didn't feel like a girl but for many years I didn't know how to be a girly girl. I felt like I was bad at being a girl. I noticed that girls with older sisters or feminine moms were better at it, but I never had that. It was a slow road to finding my own version of feminine competency on a social level, learning to self-define femininity for myself, and accept myself for who I am.
@@BoomerTellyI think we need less not more words
Instead we need a broader understanding of what males & females can be - there is nothing wrong with being a “tomboy/girl” - it never should mean that you were born in the wrong body!
There was a time when I thought the most terrifying non-fiction book I had ever read about a potential world-wide plague was “The Hot Zone” … until I read Abigail Shrier’s “Irreversible Damage” (peak time). I love this channel, & this was a great interview.
Go Tali!!!!!
Around 54:00 I love the word-play when Stella said 'Gressive, when the Trans was dropped.
Trans activists can be very TransAgressive.
28:24 "What is non-binary?" Is it the set of all counting bases that are not based on the number 2? "What is gender fluid? Is it something that oozes out of genders when you squash them?
That's the essence of queering. Once you can deny a rational argument it's like getting drunk! It's "Liberating" (capital L), and ain't nobody gonna wreck THIS party! It's that moment in 1985 - 2+2=5.
N.B. are partly those who don't have the strength to be an individual without declaring that they don't accept any societial expections and they're determined to prove it through anti-gender role self-expression and the rest seem to be TRA bots that artificially inflate the community to create more leverage for their movement.
Gender fluids are penile and vaginal secretions.
Very insightful conversation. Thank you!
Sharing, sharing, sharing.
Over sharing
I think Tali is still on her psychological self discovery. Its only been a little while since she learned to question her entire approach to life. She says that the anti-Zionism of her gender comrades is what drove her to question gender ideology. But I think she needs to question all ideology. She still seems to look for right and wrong answers and codes to live by. The capacity for the brain to rationalize is vast. Her assertion was that she questioned Zionism already so she "had it figured out"--she is right. Hopefully, in her growth she will learn that holding fast and tight to any belief is problematic and can develop the skills for recognizing what can be true on the other side and holding that tension without succumbing to definitive answers and labels. This is not a question about right vs wrong ideology, it is about maintaining openness to the truths and possibilities that we cannot see.
Exactly. She clearly has a blind spot on Zionism that she refuses to recognize and contend with
I also want to point out that Zionists and Trans activists use the same rhetoric--"If you oppose my stance/belief, then you must be Anti-Semetic/Transphobic and on the side of our genocide." Why do people who are opposing gender ideology but also complaining about the protests not seeing this blatant parallel?
So only the Jewish stuff bothered you ?
@@joywyatt9136 Are comments in the comments sections supposed to be comprehensive?
@@monicabhagwan5594 no but not selectively racist or anti semitic .
This was very interesting-thank you, Tali, Sasha, and Stella.
I believe it's important to distinguish between the desire to transition and the acceptance of gender ideology. People can transition while remaining critical of the ideology itself. They can acknowledge that one cannot change their biological sex, yet still choose to present as the opposite sex with the help of hormones and surgeries. In some cases, this can be a practical solution that significantly alleviates gender dysphoria in a way that nothing else can. The well-known "Offensive Tranny" (Marcus) is a good example of this nuanced perspective. In a world free from gender ideology, where people are fully aware of the potentially harmful consequences of hormonal treatments and surgeries, those adults who still choose to transition wouldn’t necessarily be seen as making a poor decision.
Perhaps. However in order to achieve what you describe we all have to determine that these interventions are rooted in aesthetics, like plastic surgery. Not live saving care. Also who ultimately bears the burden if we end up with a huge group of people who have major health complications as they age. (And what if the children and grandchildren who could be physically affected by these choices.) Even if the individuals were “willing to take the risk” society will bear the brunt of a generation of people who suffer higher rates of heart disease, stroke, dementia, and cancer. And for these people who understand biological reality but transition anyway how do they integrate into certain single sex spaces? It’s a conundrum for sure. On the surface, I agree with you. I know happy trans people. However I also know previously happy trans people who are now very very physically and mentally ill after decades of cross sex hormones. We need to be looking 40 years in the future as we think about this. And we need to be studying the effects of testosterone use on the babies and grand babies of trans / non binary identified females.
@@MysticMom75 At times, plastic surgery can be highly significant to the well-being of the individual. But I agree, much more research is needed to ensure that people can approach these procedures with the appropriate level of caution and knowledge.
Yeah basically if you ask the person if you took this magic pill, and it would make all of your symptoms go away, would you be happy?
If the person says no I would still want to transition, ? They are in no sort of mental state to be transitioning
I don't know how soon is too soon given the state of things more broadly but a video on the phenomenon of cult-hopping by people who have escaped the gender cult may be useful
That reminds me of the 'Therapy Group' hopping in the film 'Fight Club' That was pretty funny & great social commentary.
1:24:56 I am so proud of Tali to leave this phd programm!! congrats! these programms should loose their accreditations/licence!
What we really need right now is more “unwoke” therapists!
Brilliant episode. Loved it.
The concept of "permission to think" doesn't compute at all with me. I dont know if it's because I've always felt like an outsider (and I'm a bit oppositional by nature, truth be told), but I can't relate to that level of self censorship. I feel anxious imagining it -- it's scary!
I trust the title of this video is an homage to the Blackadder episode The Whole Rotten Saga. In which we hear:
Melchett (very drunk): "You twist and turn like a ... twisty-turny thing. I say you are a weedy pigeon and you can call me Susan if it isn't so."
ua-cam.com/users/clipUgkxUFAsfg1XJY7MgvmCTdfqWCqWQ43el1vI?si=McaV8E04pHGthMRl
I hope so 😂
@@meretriciousinsolentMe too. 😜
I found this interview a bit troubling. Going emotionally between admiration, questioning and concern. So much manipulation of others, it concerned me. I am going to work on this a bit....am I alone in this?
@mattieidema-trehan4492 Maybe you should put your comment in the main comment section instead of here. Good luck with that though 😉
@@mattieidema-trehan4492 no you're not alone in the discomfort. How much damage has been done to young, confused, impressionable individuals by ideological zealotry? The manipulative tools aren't trivial. They cause long term emotional damage, for a start. We know vulnerable people are pushed into paths of irreversible, bodily harm and further emotional damage as a result of that.
As a bright eyed and bushy tailed 18 year old lesbian on my Freshman year of college (way back when), the resident activist lesbian scared the shit out of me, even though she was never less than gracious and gentle towards me 😎 i do appreciate that Tali has come to realise how cringe she was being at the height of her activism.
This is great!
Thank you so much Tali.
I hope you are supported and any pushback doesn't overwhelm you.
#CourageCalls
"I'm anti-social and anti-justice!" 😂😂
Life's not fair, that's what friends are for.
Everyone is these days, it's quite the fashion
I’ve listened to the pioneer series twice, it’s so informative. You guys should do another one of these, like a “pioneer deep dive”.
Thanks for being so honest Tali.
Your confession of changing your wife’s pronouns in her bio left me very uncomfortable.
I’m wondering if you twigged that if your wife is now a man (according to the ideology) you are/were now heterosexual. Your identity becomes subject to the trans person’s identity.
Gaslighting & manipulation seems to come very naturally to her
Thank you, Sasha, for your critical analysis of Tali's commentary.
Good Morning from Oregon 🌲🐿️🌲🐿️🌲
Good morning from Co. Offaly!
You're up early! ...or late 😅
This is a great interview! I’m struck by how Tali’s wife absorbed Tali’s firebrand/activist spirit and Tali absorbed her wife’s skepticism. Both took things a bit too far before, and are now in the process of evening out and ending up in more moderate places. I’m hopeful for her wife in finally beginning to process her long-seated discomfort with being female. Perhaps that is the silver lining here- unlike people who were never exposed to gender identity ideology and unlike people who embrace trans identities (imo, all people who maintain a trans identity are preventing themselves from fully resolving their distress)- her wife is in a unique position to actually address her gender issues. I am biased based on my personal experiences with OCD, but to me a lot of these things seem solvable with graded exposure therapy. Not liking your body- whether gender related or otherwise- is a form of body dysmorphic disorder that takes the form of obsession, which is an itself a form of anxiety disorder. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) the one true path through anxiety disorders is…exposure, which is EXTREMELY effective, but TERRIBLY brutal to go through. I bet that practicing viewing yourself, as you are, with your body as it is, in social and sexual scenarios (aka exposure therapy) would resolve most gender dysphoric people’s issues- whether they are homo or heterosexual, ROGD, or have cross-sex sexual coping mechanisms (I don’t believe in “autoheterosexuality” any more than I do in “transgender”).
Thank you for touching on semantic contagion.
I have been saying I think this has a rather large role to play in the rise of trans identities. Social contagion is certainly one aspect but I think some amount of gender dysphoria is very common at certain ages and when we code/name that normal experience we can inadvertently create a long lasting problem that previously would have been resolved internally with time and maturation.
Obviously for some ppl it persists like Talis wife, but even then giving it a life of its own isn’t necessarily productive or healthy or leading to a better outcome.
The language and words we as a society use impact how we think which impacts how we feel.
Given how much time we spend communicating or absorbing communications and messaging in the world we live in, I think one of the ways out of this is to shift the language we use.
another great video. I wish UA-cam would push this out
😮 what a domineering woman
I so appreciate your thoughtful and respectful insights. It helps. Had you ever heard of "The Disappearing Butch" conversations back in the early 2010s? It was a warning I feel to what was happening to non conforming butch lesbians, and a bellringer to the vacuum this would create.
Thanks!
I thought this one was excellent and actually gave me some insight on how to deal with my adult son. I wish Tali worked with young adults struggling with their "gender". She has such a great perspective and I think her background and personality is so relatable to young adults/teens. She is part of their generation and community and has first hand knowledge of how this can affect someone (and the rabbit hole they to through online). I think her background in this field is also invaluable. I think they would not see her as a threat and she could get through to them in ways that us parents can not. I do agree with her that even if you pull these kids out, they need more than just "lots of people struggle with this." They need tools and ways to get happy in their bodies once they realize that they can not become the opposite sex.
In progressive circles, it was the gender identity issue where men who were previously allies of mine suddenly viciously turned on me for my gender critical views that opened me up to the serious problem of being too righteous about politics.
Hmmm, interesting, what do you make of that?
@@OrwellsHousecat It opened me up to how sexist the gender identity movement is.
I keep hear people say 'why did they believe that gender stuff' and I have to ask them if they ever tried illicit substances even though they heard it was both fun and bad for them.
Older lefties on social media often say “the kids are going to save us”
I joined Genspect, but I don't know how to access the 'private' conversations. Cann someone tell me? Thanks
Had Tali never come across the antisemitism of the far left up until that point??
I was able to cope with the cognitive dissonance until may 2021. I know a wave of people woke up to it then. Another wave woke up after Oct 7. I admire and feel bad for the people who always knew and were trying to warn the rest of us.
Arabs are Semites too, so unless you're talking about true antisemitism of the old British variety in which they hated everyone in the Middle East, it's not actual accurate to say that antisemitic is the same as anti-Jewish.
@@talibotz what i was wondering here in this interview is why your own sexual orientation did not immediately bust the situation for you. Since you are attacked to females. You might have realized with Kelly's proclamation: it's so B.S. she can't change; or whatever Kelly changes I won't be attracted to that..?
@dreimalnein22 I had been with men up until age 21ish. I wasn't disgusted by men. I was very nervous that i would lose attraction for her, but that concern was wiped away as somehow bigoted. She was also concerned that physical changes would change my attraction for her. I told her I loved who she is as a person. That is undoubtedly true, but who knows what would have happened if she medicalized. Can't be sure.
The far left are the same people who would call anyone who disagreed with them a “N@zi” and then after October 7th they exposed themselves as the True N@zis, pretty ironic
I loved this interview. Thank for sharing your story.
I do have to ask, what are Sasha and Stella writing as they are listening to the person talk? I'm so curious! 😅
Notes for follow up questions!
I think Stella was using her phone
She seems nice enough now but the person she describes herself as before really comes across as insufferable. I wish her luck and hope her growth continues.
Actually, she's still like that, but also such a candid excellent courageous communicator who is probably quite rare in being able to tell us, so clearly, how this danger-laden emotionally intense process went. I really value & appreciate her for that, but her personality is one I avoid like the plague.
I think many of us have been down this road of starting off believing you are doing good by supporting the trans stance and then realising that it isn't all it is set up to be; though I do still believe that if it works for someone and they genuinely feel happier I am not going to criticise. I'm against "the movement" and people being persuaded that this is just an easy process and necessary; not individuals who have benefitted as I do know people who have waited all their lives and feel more at ease.
Just a little addition which made me laugh towards the end when Tali says her wife getting her hair cut short was worrying. It just made me chuckle, because what did she think hormones would do? They would lower her voice, she would grow lots of hair everywhere, her clitoris would look like a mini penis... Of course I'm sure Tali realises all of this with hindsight, and I appreciate that the activism came out of a sense of caring for people and not wishing for them to suffer. I totally get it; no criticism. It just made me chuckle a bit; sort of a "reality" moment !!
By the way I absolutely adore all of your episodes. I cannot praise them high enough. They are very important in all of this.
Omg that's so funny queuing up the clip to important parts 😂. I'll be listening to something and my very wokeish 22 year old will say something talking back to my podcast etc and I'll just play dumb like " oh i wasn't even paying attention" if she tries to argue with me about the content at that particular point. I'll also remind her if i do engage on the topic, that she is hearing 10 seconds of an hour long conversation. At the very least, you need the previous 5 minutes of this particular sentence you're upset about. Doesn't always work lol
It's interesting to see that when the subject (micro aggressions, gender etc) was one which she didn't know much about (because she was a student), but was learning from the so-called experts who had authority, she took what she was being told on faith.
However when the subject (middle east conflict) was one where she was more knowledgeable than self-assured pseudo-experts she could see right through the partisan views being pushed on to her.
I wonder if, other than learning more about a subject from multiple viewpoints, there are other ways to see through.
What do you think?
it seem's so nice that this kind of narcissistic behavior does not need to manifest in a full-blown personality disorder. It can dissolve like for others the end of puberty would have already ended that self-obsessed righteousness... I am just impatient or not compassionate enough to cope with all them and their past actions when they were already adults. What a horrible worldwide schooling / university / progressive subculture (she 110% makes responsible for it).
If your guest is going to go back to speaking in a grammatically correct way, she needs to drop the "to she and I" BS. It's "to her and me." "To" is a preposition. The object of the preposition is always in the accusative case. If you have trouble figuring this out, just think whether "we" would make sense (i.e., "This was important to we"). If we doesn't make sense, then neither do she and I, because he, she, I, we, and they are in the nominative case, while him, her, me, us, and them are in the accusative case.
This mistake she's making is called hypercorrectionism, and it's really annoying because so many educated people do it. They believe they're being grammatically correct, but they're not.
I know, RIGHT! 🙄
Notice it in Americans, perhaps they are taught that way.
@@judithmorganjudyteen Yeah, it's extremely sad that an entire generation (Millennials) truly believes that "her" and "me" are somehow grammatically incorrect in certain normal situations, but they weren't taught this in school; they just started doing it because they thought it made them sound more educated. Kind of like people who use "whom" but use it totally incorrectly. Once this caught on among the middle and upper middle class, women everywhere under a certain age started speaking this way. Now, sadly, teachers are probably speaking this way as well, although if they teach English in any form, they definitely should and do know better.
@@John-tr5hn Oh, it's not just millenials.
I had a therapist who was in her 50s, who used to say 'between you and I'. I had to bite my tongue not to scream 'ME, it's ME - a preposition takes the direct object, not the subject form of the pronoun', or not to laugh hysterically. It was quite ironic, really. As the client, theoretically I should have felt free to express any thought to her. I decided she wasn't up to much as a therapist, anyway, so stopped working with her.
I have also heard many men use 'whom' incorrectly, so I'm not sure why you say 'women everywhere ...started speaking this way.'
I put this comment on a very lesbian channel, and yet until I phrased it in an almost apologetic way, it was taken down. Seriously, the perceived insults by the 'Queer' 'Inclusive' community excludes any opinion that is in the least bit different from theirs:
My Opinion: As for the 'L Word' - I think it depicted gay women in a very particular non-stereotypical way. The "Los Angeles Hollywood-Way" - where there are no butch-ish lesbians, not even lipstick butch (which would be me). They also (to the determent of butch lesbians everywhere) introduced a transMan for no good reason... except titillation & made it seem almost glamourous. In my humble opinion, that was irresponsible of them, when they could have focused on actual lesbians in more realistic relationships. Plenty of drama there w/out adding an outlier. [this is just my opinion & is not meant to freak anyone out] I hope I have a right to state reasonable opinions here.
Every time I post anything I dread the 'cancel' response from the thought police. Ack!
I'm against the censorship of your post on any site. I mostly agree with your opinion of the L Word. I thought Shane was rather butch though.
@@strawberryseason Yep, Shane was our token 'butch' & in the writer's warped minds in LWordGenQ they had her 'fall in love' with a trans. wo. man /genitals intact - as if that would ever happen in real life - they had the 'baby dyke'- (also a 'butch') character drunkenly go down on same intact trans wo. man, which would also never happen in real life. Both those things would have never occurred with any real lesbian. Ever. Mind you she did throw up in the next scene (& that should have happened right as she was engaging w/trans wo.man). Titillation was always the motivation with these writers/creators. That & a skewed sense of SJW politics. The actress who played Shane was also in 'Ray Donovan' as a lez character & she was super kick-arse cool. So much better representation!
Agreed with the l word. The director wanted to make a sexy lesbian tv series. Butch lesbians aren't sexy
@@bee-eu6cg Well, yeah, the super hard-core dykey-dyke ones are not sexy. Obviously they find a type of woman who is into them alright - I guess like the gay dude equivalent of 'chubby chasers'... I dunno. I am a so-called lipstick 'butch'. I considered it more Glam Rocker look. But, yeah, The Television Executives need the long hair/dresses look, more like the fake porno lesbos men are used to.
I was somewhat concerned about her take on and lack of knowledge about feminism and women's rights. She seemed dismissive of women's need for safe spaces and protection from predatory men given that one of the biggest problems about gender identity politics is the overall impact it is having on women as men decide to "identify into womanhood"(see Australia and Sal Grover, see men like Eddie Izzard , the girl guides, the Olympics and the pAralympics etc). I think she still has a lot of learning to go. She doesn't appear to understand the impact of gender woo on lesbians and the pressure them to accept men identifying as women as sexual partners either. I felt you could have challenged her a little more on this.
"I didn't know that there wasn't any evidence supporting it."
How arrogant do you have to be to think of yourself as an expert when you lack a basic familiarity with the research literature? And how cowardly are the academic staff to collude in this ridiculous process? The world could really do with fewer psychologists.
I agree about being able to change one's mind; I know I definitely have about some issues (although more what happened to me is that I have remained the same while the left has gone all in in the direction of identity politics, while I'm still an economic lefty and prefer to view everything through the lens of social class). But it also really irks me that so many young people, especially in college and in grad school, just hear something on Monday and are protesting it by Tuesday afternoon. I have no problem with protesting, and there are some things that should always be protested, but if it's something you just learned about, why don't you think about it for a while before you go all in?
If Tali's wife had gone through CSH and surgery, Tali would no longer have a wife. She (Tali) would be the wife in a heterosexual relationship. This might have been fine for Tali because she is ostensibly bi, but I also know some lesbians couples in which one person has gone trans. In both cases, they divorced, because while the trans man wanted to remain married, the remaining wife felt betrayed.
If we're speculating on what might have happened in their relationship I'll wager that Tali would always be wearing the trousers
Something about her approach the her wife really rubs me the wrong way, but anyway it's nice how much she is willing to analyse her beliefs
Why not share how to break the belief system with everyone?
I could catch Talia's entitled personality from the first 3 seconds. I know this is the kind of person I actively avoided in college, couldn't even manage to want to be friends with. But at the same time it's so amazing to be able to listen to her perspective and to see what drives her thought pattern. I think I am very similar to her in the sense of being very affected by justice, I just think I grew up as an outcast and with a dad who always challenged and taught me to critique my beliefs so was never able to feel so confident and righteous as her, and was always able to realize how stupid a 20 year old challenging 60 year old professors looks. It's so revealing that what took her out was finally being "outcasted" by her own group... something I realize happened since the beginning so there was never this reveal for me, I always knew mass movements are short-sighted and shallow.
I am going to tease you here a bit, not meaning to offend, but: the sentence: "I always knew mass movements are short-sighted and shallow." Not ALL mass movements, just MOST. (winky smiley emoji) This sentence by you I absolutely agree with:
"... able to realize how stupid a 20 year old challenging 60 year old professors looks..." So true!
Yes, she doesn't seem to have managed to figure that part of herself out, does she? Clearly she's one of the most privileged 5% of people in the globe, yet she was (and remains) desperate to characterise herself as a 'victim' because that's where you get the status points in Tali's circles and status is so very, very important to her.
Least interesting episode ever.
@@baronesswithabrush1991 To reify, it's not that the causes of social movements are shallow. They never are. What I mean is that mass mobilization often carries siple triggers, and when you leave it up to the people you end up with very shallow motivations compared to what started it all. Sometimes that hijacks the movement itself
@@twatmunro I agree with you but I wouldn't say it's the least interesting episode. I actually wish there could be a podcast where former arrogant people explain how they used to think, and what helped them realize that. I went probably to the same college as her but I was international and first generation and couldn't understand how these people could genuinely believe their "oppression" discourse, plus all the LGBT/race suffering claims as sacred and unquestionable. I'm gay myself it all seemed so ridiculous to me, how young people actually believed everything activists said.
@@kateamanak I think I know what you are saying. Political/social movements do get hi-jacked. Sometimes even infiltrated by rabble rousers. Politics are complicated to say the least & motivations of Politicians... who knows...
She was a Clinical Psychologist.
I wonder why men don't go to therapy or seek/trust help from that industry.
37:41 . Oh boy... There's no shortage of people who require shepherding. It's the responsibility of shepherds to shepherd. To shepherd the 🐑🐑🐑weak.
Unfortunately, sheep are gonna sheep influencing the sheep around them. There's always more sheep than shepherds. It's and uphill battle. 🐿
So, she says that she doesn't like being told what to do without knowing why. I can understand that, but does that mean hearing the "why" from the Marxists made sense to her? I'm the same, but the reason I've never been Progressive is because their "why" never made sense to me
Yeah, that is always difficult for me to reconcile component of ideological converts. I'm fond of Tulsi Gabbard these days, however, I also ask why did she have it so wrong for so long? Particularly being being a member of the US Army. 🐿
Sasha, I googled you too: The same bad art rendering (not flattering) has you against the TransFlag and the link goes to a WARNING page. OMG. Here's a snippet: "Ayad is connected to a number of anti-trans organizations, most of which are just part of a web farm with reciprocal links to make Ayad’s allies and their fringe ideologies seem more numerous and influential than they are." FRINGE ideologies? Are they kidding? CRINGE is what their Ideology is... Sanity is under attack by these well-funded delusional activists. I. Can't. Even. 🙀🤯 Web Farm?? whaaaa... honestly, these folks are Crab Grass if y'all are a Web Farm!
I believe you’re talking about Andrea James’ website. We are well aware. Jesse Singal has done some reporting on Andrea if you want to go down that rabbit hole! (He and Katie Herzog are also on the site.)
@@widerlenspod I checked out the info on Andrea James; wow! the hate just pours out of that one. I read Jesse Singal's piece. And I now remember who Katie Herzog is: she is the lez who was in Seattle with a household full of other gay women-- and then one by one they all 'caught the social contagion' & went though some form of 'change of gender/sex'... I am looking for the origin of this 'virus' & I just came across the Australian Norrie May-Welby. I feel really bad for that person - it would seem they are truly 'sexless/genderless' & yet it was that legal system addressing that case which set the precedent for 'Gender ID' for ANYONE who 'feels' like they are the wrong sex... omg...
I find it very very difficult to have any sympathy for this woman. She reminds me of the 5".0 people who spit, shout and scream at police and staple or glue themselves to the floor. As some-one who has had to clean up their mess 👎👎👎👎👎👎👎👎. No-one outside their immediate circle of family, guardians and friends ever stopped them loving or wearing who or what they wanted. Yet the wider public has to bare the brunt of their discontent. 👏👏👏👏to you Stella and Sasha. I could never do your job.
I agree. I am rapidly reaching my limits of sympathy for these people
I've seen people saying their trans and yet they're a they in pronouns but nothing else is modified. Does anyone have feedback on this?
the pronouns are the precursor to the full 'illusion'.... frightening.
It's laborious listening
Her partner says she had trans feelings from a young age, Tali is a very strong personality, Kelli is passive, Tali engages in an all-out campaign to make her desist? Hmm, I wouldn’t be surprised if Kelli retranses at some point. Trans people are often naturally passive & people pleasers, my mom’s displeasure at ANY gender non conforming behavior in me when I was a kid did damage to me far beyond making me retreat further back into the closet. I just wanted her love; Kelli is probably like I was (still am). Let people follow their hearts.
I was feeling this as well.
When a child is homosexual, absent a sexuality, I don't suspect it's far cry for the child contemplate being the opposite sex. Particularly after a child observes the vast representations of the 'two sexes' pair bonding relative to homosexuals bonding. This is further amplified by the child who doesn't comprehend homosexuality. And rightly so.
To discuss homosexuality to an immature child, without consulting the parents, frequently results in sexualizing the child. 🐿
I have a very strong personality. I had "trans" feelings from a young age. I wanted to be the opposite sex. Doesn't mean I *am* the opposite sex.
If Kelli has truly come to terms with reality and accepted herself for who she is, she'll never retransition.
Wait... is feeling offended that someone has misgendered you a sign that one's gender dysphoria is not resolved
😉
Okay, so she's a zionist... I'm very open minded of other opinions on almost any other issue. Not on this. Being a zionist is not a good thing.
What's an Izlamc county called that oppresses all other religions, women and homosexuals called? And, it that a good thing? 🐿
Could you give your definition of Zionism? I believe hers was that the Jews have a state of their own. Which seems quite an inoffensive statement given many peoples seem to have this already. Many peoples have several.
@@danifilth70 Roughly, the way I see it is that zionism is a belief that they have a right to the land now known as Israel. (there's also the idea of greater Israel but I'll leave that out. Assuming most zionists don't believe in that).
Sounds inoffensive enough until you realize what that actually means. The problem with that definition and the one you just gave is that it's vague enough to sound inoffensive. The reality of the situation is that that means the native population of Palestine are either forced to leave or be killed, or they are forced to live in a jewish state where they don't have the same rights as the jewish population. I know zionism can be defined in many different ways but even the most inoffensive definitions are problematic. Why would they need a specifically jewish state? I personally believe in the seperation of church and state to give people the freedom to practice the religion of their choosing. And even if it isn't about religion (as a large part of israeli jews aren't religious). Truth is that before the nakba in 1948 there was a majority arab population who have been displaced in order to make Israel a 'jewish state'. How do you turn a country into a jewish state if the majority of the population isn't jewish? If the arabs would have been allowed to stay in their homeland the jews wouldn't be a majority and it I'm pretty sure the Palestinian population wouldn't have agreed with turning thier country into a jewish state. The only other option then is to use force. Which is obviously what ended up happening.
Many people calling themselves zionist aren't nearly that inoffensive though, if you ask what having their own state would practically mean. They have an idea that they're are entitled to the land no matter what. Killing and torturing thousands of palestinians is fine. Even though many of the people calling themselves zionists are American and European jews (like Tali overe here) who cannot prove their ancestors came from that land or only have very distant ties. And even if they could prove their ancestors came from Israel I'm not sure they are entitles to the land but that's a different conversation. They could be living perfectly good lives in the countries they're from. Israeli jews often have dual citizenship. Same could not be said for the Palestinians.
Hope that clears things up?
@@Knuck_Knucks You're all over this comment section spewing garbage like you're being paid for it.
@@nullvoid9001 How would you even know that unless you visited every slanderous post that doesn't confront every intolerant, oppressive, ethnocentric, theocratic state of the middle-east. The comments section is waiting for your reply. 🐿
I've noticed I have begun reading social situations as "microagressions". If I watch one more Netflix production where all the heroes are non European, all the men are weak, or if European down right evil, I'm gonna scream! The sensitivity cuts both ways! It's VERY boring for other people!
This isn't the place for dudebros to whine about not being in the spotlight anymore. Take it somewhere else.
✅
❤🇬🇧❌❌
Drink every time she says 'my wife'
*hiccups
My bladder can't cope
I've found your podcast so helpful in my understanding of my transitioning child. But this episode was really upsetting for its uncritical endorsement of Zionism vs. the "naïveté" and "ignorant" activists who "don't know anything" about the history of the Middle East. Lumping together narratives about race and gender with Zionism as an example undermine your whole project. So the ICJ and World Court are ignorant? Ireland? You just let that fly in the name of a good podcast? 40,000 known dead in Gaza ? Appalling.
People do not have to be right on every topic. They have reasons for their subjective perception. Especially on a topic like Israel-Palestine where there's no black and white answer or clear solution. Nobody is immune to their cultural influence that educates them to care for their community's needs, while not knowing about cultural experiences outside of that.
Zionism is not OK but how weird this all is. My family has jews who will always support Israel, always.
There is something going on here that is not just dishonest and manipulative but so deeply disturbing.
@@patpoole6653 what’s dishonest and manipulative?
These comments are strangely & bizarrely difficult to interpret. You say Zionism is not ok, comment on your family always supporting Israel, suggest there's "something going on here that is not just dishonest & manipulative but disturbing" & yet still say a whole lot of nothing... Really, I can't figure out what you're trying to say.
I have to stop watching halfway when the Israel Palestine stuff came up. All she hast to do to get good info on the other side is listen to one hour of Norman Finkelstein. Or any other number of people like Gábor Máté who come from Holocaust survivor families and are horrified that Israel is doing the same thing to other people. The Jews in Israel are not religious, they are secular Jews doing this for political gain. I’m Jewish as well and at some point I got pulled out of the cult. Oh my God look up the recent videos posted on Israeli media about treatment in Israeli prisons! RA-PE is a common punishment!
If anyone talks about this subject so cavalierly again in other videos I just won’t watch you anymore. I feel bad for this woman for being firmly in a cult and not realizing it, but glad it all worked out I guess.
Cool story. Conspicuously absent; any criticism for the opposite side.
Peace is a 2 lane highway. Your comment omits all complexity and doesn't help your cause.
Liberalism isn't easy. 🐿
@@Knuck_Knucks ethnic cleansing based on the ethnosupremacy of jews is not complex. Genociding of more than 40000 Palestinians is not complex.
@@misriya4147 D you meant the Hamas fighters? If that's your perception. Fine...
Now Ms. Misriya, condemn all the 'ethnic cleansing' of Christians and Jews through the entirety of the Middle East for past thousands of years. Condemn October 7th.
Are you suggesting 'ethnosupremacy' doesn't exist within Arab culture? Look in the mirror. Condemn yourself. Demonstrate ethical consistency. We'll wait. 🐿
@@Knuck_Knucks are you unable to condemn the ethnic cleansing being performed by your chosen people? The nakba, the land grabs, the apartheid state , the total destruction of gaza?
@@misriya4147 Arabs don't care about the Palestinians. That's why they never host them in their countries and supply them with weapons instead. Gazan's are simply human fodder the Arabs use to bludgeon Israel with. And your false equivalency is an exercise in complicity. The Sunni and Shia 'Cleans' each other everyday and you aren't complaining. I'll happily condemn the violence on both sides. You however, refuse to. You 'Chose' your side. Who 'ordered' you to comment here? 🐿