The truth about the modern '911' - Porsche 911E and 991S
Вставка
- Опубліковано 13 бер 2019
- With the Porsche 992 moving ever further from the original ethos of the 911 are any of the modern 911s worthy of the name? Today I drive one of the original classic 911s and compare it to a modern 991S.
#porsche911 #911E #classiccars #991S - Авто та транспорт
If you had to pick one.. which one would it be.. or would it be something entirely different? under £100K
Number27 - modern 911’s are a great car but feel more Audi than 911 in my opinion. The £100k would be spent on the 1970 911 but with manual transmission every day of the week.
I know what you mean though trust me, that 991 has more feel and soul than any modern Audi bar the R8s
As an only car, the 991.... As a weekend cruiser, the 911E.
But still feel the 987.1 Cayman S is by far the best Porsche deal out there right now: perfect mix between a smaller older 911 and the more powerful better handling newer models. Thanks for the video.
Modern 911 for me. It wouldn't have to be the latest model, water cooled for sure, 6 speed man, a blue or teal color. Nothing anyone would use the words "classic" or "investment" on. I would like to drive more than worry.
Well without doubt I'd spend my hard earned on a 964.
Loved that very cool & interesting video. Thx a lot !
Great video Jack, one of your best ! Cheers
Thanks Joao!! Wish it would get more views!! UA-cam is unfathomable!!
Could see you were having a ball in the 911e, in the 991 you were hanging on for dear life. Great video thanks for sharing.
I did love the 991 though, so amazing..!! thanks for watching
One small detail -- the first long-wheel-base cars were built in September 1968 as 1969 models. Also if the brakes have any travel that you can feel from the driver's seat, they need to be bled or fixed. The early cars with non-powered brakes should feel like you are pressing against a block of wood. It's the pressure against the pedal that stops the car, not the travel. Having an "early" 911 and a modern(ish) Boxster, the later Porsches help you to drive confidently like Walter Rohl. The early 911's help to teach you how to drive like Walter Rohl.
Nice video. Just came back to your channel by chance and enjoyed. Keep it up
Glad to see that smile. The 997.2 and 991.1 are golden. Really fun in the twistys and makes us all feel confident. Great point about the speed, we all have to go too fast to have fun these days
Great video mate really love this one
Thanks mate!! I also think one of my best.. not doing as well as I thought it might though!!
Great video as always but boy the look on your face when you put the power down on the 991 hahahaha
Yep, was really good fun..
Hi Jack, I don't comment much but a big fan of your videos. Choosing one of these is like choosing a favorite child. Each has its own merits.
Nice one Jack. Great idea for a film & very well made too boot.
Thank you Sean!!!
Your best job ever! Love it!
Thanks.. o thought so too. Good to hear you agree!
Your videos are great Jack. Watching in Ireland
Hey thanks for watching Oran, much appreciated!!
Great Video Truly enjoyable ( but why does the water remain static in the background at 1m49 )
You make great vids👍👍
That’s very kind.. thanks!
Thank you!!
Thank you so much for these videos. You do a fantastic job and really should be on television. I know you did a 924s video and a 968; any chance you might consider a 944 na vs a 911 sc of the same period? I would be curious to see how they compare all these years later. Thanks again from Canada 🇨🇦!
Thanks that’s too kind!! Would love to compare a 944 and SC. Will see if I can get hold of some!
Number27 Thanks for the reply! Please keep doing what you are doing!!
Loved this video Jack it really was a cracking video, is the answer to the 911 dilemma a singer!? If your bank balance resembles a telephone number of course 😂
Thanks Ryan.. is probaly take a RUF over a Singer.. more functional and less hipster
@@Number27 good call ! I wish I was in the position to be making that decision!
Jack - you’ve nailed it!! On visceral sensation and enjoyment, Porsche has thrown the engagement of the older 911s out the window. No matter what Porsche’s marketing would try to convince us, the ever increasing top speeds, and the accompanying driver’s aids (to keep people from killing themselves) is what it’s all about.
I have a ‘90 964 C2 that I’ve modified to combine the best of the RS and RS America to bring as much of that driver engagement back as possible.
Hey thanks for watching David and enjoy your 964!!
Nice work Jack!
Thanks Nick, appreciate you taking time out to watch!!
Another good video Jack. You didn't look like you were sitting comfortably in the 911 E, was that the case? I ask because in my 1977 2,7 I really struggle to find the 'optimum' seating position. I am either too far away with my arms, or too close with my legs. Over a long distance this can be a mega pain in the arse. (Well, a pain in the back actually) As you mentioned, when the old 911 is on the right road and in the sweet spot it is really enjoyable and gives a lot of feedback. The modern 911 sounds epic and would indeed handle everything I could throw at it. The only thing is that I am nowhere near good enough to be able to enjoy a modern sports car anywhere near it's potential, that's why I would always go for the Oldtimer. With the handling, noises and nostalgia, they make 70 mph feel like 170 mph and I am very happy with that. ;-)
Seating position was ok but to be honest i did not really notice.. I have so much stuff on my mind when I’m doing the videos that I miss some bits out!!
Very nice driving! I love the fact that those cars have a soul and make you smile each time you drive em. No matter if the old or the new, they are legends. Of course this here comes down to the question: are you a fan of Oldtimers or a fan of modern cars. I’m the latter...
Thanks for watching and for the nice comment!
Thank you Jack-Great Great video.
Grazie papo!!!
Great video Jack 👌🏼
Thank you Davon!!! one of the first to comment !
Cheers bud. BTW I keep an eye on Phil's stock list, waiting for a manual 996 to come up!@@Number27
Nice video, one small correction, 1968 was also SWB
My late dad bought a new 911 Turbo in 1979.Casablanca Beige with brown leather.I bought a 1985 1911 Turbo Targa years later in GP White and black leather.Brilliant cars.
WoW.. Judy think to have one of those now!! Thanks for watching!
I love my 2014 991.1 ordered from the factory in 2013. Mine is a manual, which makes quite a difference, have driven one with a PDK.
Great comparison Well done. Really got a sense of the what each is like to drive. Not really a surprise that there is nothing that really links to the two. I was especially interested by your description of the general handling characteristics. That you could really feel the tail heaviness in the old one, and how the 992 'pivots' around corners. But also how the one thing they could be said to have in common is the feeling of lightness over the front wheels. Given the choice between the two, I don't really know how anyone could pick the old one. Yes, it's charming. But the 992 is just so desirable and fast and sophisticated...
Thanks for watching and for the interesting comment Roger!!
Hi there as always great material👍🏻 first shots of the video are so good !!!under 100k Only one choice Mercedes Pagoda
Good call!! Love a Pagoda, must try one soon!!
Lovely Jubbly, both beautiful cars in their own way.
Lovely jubbly?? Jellied eels?? Trouble and strife?
Your 964 is a great example of middle ground between the two. 👍
Good point Mark!! Hope all good!
I had a 964 C2 for years and agree that's it's probably the best mix of old and new since I don't like the look of 993s. I really miss the 911 feeling and am thinking a longhood will be next. Besides, new ones are just too fast for me to enjoy properly on the roads.
Great vid
Thank you very much!!
Yeah, lineage in the shape but don't forget the unusual beat of the boxer configuration plus the product focus and build quality.
Yes but Porche no longer alone on te build quality front.. thanks for watching
very different beasts these two. I love either one in it's own right. English country roads seem too narrow for the new model though
Good point on how size impacts the driving experience on normal roads.. should have mentioned that!
I would have the 991 w/manual. You made a great point that you really have to push the newer car to enjoy it. I know with the 3.2 models you could enjoy it even if you were doing the speed limit, just based on the engine noise, rolling through the gears and wrestling with no power steering.
Very true! Thanks for watching
Nice comparison Jack, alway enjoy the outtakes. When are we going to see Fred that bad boy back on the channel?
Ha!! Fred’s did a rebuild soon.. but not sure when that will happen!
Nice one Jack. Would love to hear a bit more about that sportmatic box, you seemed to enjoy it? Have you tried a 991.2 with the turbo engine? It's faster but I'm not sure it's better. I just bought the 3.8 na manual (in boxster spyder) over the 3.0tt (was looking at a 991.2 gts)the na has a vtec type kick at the top which is glorious, the tt has epic torque but there is nothing at the top end. The 991.1 c2s / gts with manual box is probably the modern 911 sweet spot (as long as they have folding buckets). Now there is a test no one has done and everyone needs! Porsche seats, comfort v folding buckets v 918 buckets. The most important spec choice in any new porsche! Go on do it!!!
Hey, yes I think the non tubo c2s prob is the sweetspot. I like the looks too
4:05 are the rear tyres low on air?
To me, the 991 was one step too far. Too large, too GT, too luxury, too assisted. The 997 was the last relatively pure 911, and the 996 was the last which could be said to be still analog. My car has ABS and traction control, that is it, and the TC can be switched off. I would take the original of these two, although I would prefer a 964. For up to 100k though, I might just pick up a 996.1 GT3...
996 GT3 is also one of my all time favourites!! Absolutely adore those cars
We are on the same page, 991 was a step too far. I've got a 98 btw. 😎
And now 992 is like a Panamera with the engine in the back.
The first Porsche Cayman 987.1.2 till 2009 are the last analog Porsche’s Porsche have made these cars have the classical style shape as the 911 G series from 1989 but I think that nobody recognise this the newer 911’s are to big now exactly a Panamera with an engine in the back 🥴
@@aftastosk6016 Yes. Has nothing to do with the original, genuine thing. Great car though.
993 Carrera for me please!
My choice would be either a 964 or 993 (which I currently own) more modern than the 911E but still has the old 911 DNA intact.
Fantastic review. As a 911 fan, I didn't doubt they'd be mega different. In an ideal world, I'd have a long bonnet 911E and a 991.2 GT3 Touring because both would be a blast to drive in their own right. How was the steering feel in the 991.1 compared with the classic?
Big omission on my part not taking about that.. the new car does have light steering but I think there is enough feel there to still have fun!! Not a patch on the old though for that!!
Both have a five-gauge cluster!
Nice video Jack! Are you joining any of the PCGB events?
Don’t do much with them!! But thanks for watching buddy!
911e as my runaround and 991 as my longhaul
For me, the 911E. Great review.
Thank you fella!!
If wanted as a Daily then modern but for a weekend runabout then always the classic.
A few nits to pick - long wheelbase cars began in 1969 not 1967, and the impact bumpers began in 1974 not 1973. Thank you nonetheless for the great comparison video.
It’s amazing how large the modern car is over the original. I think if you have a lot of money to toss around then having something old and new works but otherwise, as much as I love the originals, one must be practical in their choices.
Great review Sir. I would take the old lady all day long over the 991. The oldies are real drivers cars, where the driver has to work hard, while giving respect to the vintage, mechanical parts. With the new cars the car does lots for the driver, making any average driver look like a racing driver. Switch off those aids and the car always bites back. Today's 911s are easier to drive, and even can possibly even be a little boring. Some may disagree, but they will need to go drive an old 911 to see my point.
Thanks for the kind words!! Do love the older cars..
Great video, as always very straightforward and sincere without any bells and whistles. I am modest, I would be happy with a manual 997 gts. :)
Thanks chap.. the GTS is indeed a cracking car!!
@@Number27 would like to see you review one and get your opinion. Keep it up, cheers!
Power! 🏁
The old one has a wonderful sound much more audible, it involves you, great visibility, makes you feel pilot, but the manual gearbox is a must. The modern one is a beast but that to enjoy you need a track.
Yes.. old one is special
I owned over a dozen amongst the 67/89 911
series and I guess the question should be changed into which classic 911 would you like better...That makes sense.
I have the 991, but a 4S, also with PDK. 2012 or 2013, so also pre-turbo. Black, same wheels, almost identical to your review 991. The main issue I have with it is that it’s far too fast and far too capable for the public road. My previous Carrera was a manual 997 2S Cabriolet, and to be honest the main reasons I swapped up were (a) I fancied the PDK to make daily driving a *lot* easier and (b) the cabrio somewhat spoils the iconic shape. But, looking back I at least had the wind in hair to compensate for the 997’s likewise vast (but unusable) performance. Next one’ll be another cabrio, but this time a PDK.
Next point: to my eyes, the best looking Carrera ever was the tintop 997 with wide body, so either a 4S or a widebody 2S. The 991 looks great, it really does, but I can’t help admiring the 997 whenever I get to see one. Which is often ‘cos I live near Zürich.
Last point: does anyone else miss the old days when yer could drive a Peugeot 205 GTI (or whatever) on its doorhandles from dawn to dusk and never feel out of your depth in terms of keeping on top of its capabilities? Makes me think I should get my hands on an old Elise or something... These modern cars are too fast to be fun.
Ric
Yes agree, in terms of getting close to the limits modern cars are not great!! But that 991 was still fun!!
So true One makes you feel like you're doing 80mph at 40mph , the other feeling like 40mph at 80mph - I'm in it for the fun ( and keeping my license )
WRT your last point, yes, definitely, to the point where I'm seriously considering switching from my 3.2 987 Boxster S back to a 1.8 Mk1 MX-5. As Number 27 says, with the modern car you have to be going so fast to have fun.
Prior to the nineties, the 911's were flimsy rust-buckets. Then Porsche got serious with construction and galvanic body dipping. Of course safety and emission requirements took their toll on car size and car weight as well. The latest 911's are quite large and heavy but that is the price of progress. True you do have a dedicated group of fans that keep older Porsche's on the road but the expense and effort is frightening.
I just clicked the like counter over to 901. I feel special...
It sounds like the 911E had a couple hands tied behind it's back. If there is a rattle, then something isn't put together right. Early 911s shouldn't rattle. Second - if the brake pedal is long, the brakes need to be serviced and the fluid bled. The unassisted brake pedal of an early 911 should feel like there is block of wood under the pedal. The brakes are designed to transfer pressure, not necessarily volume. Finally there is a reason most owners swapped out the semi-automatic gearbox for a standard 5-speed. Props to you for actually finding a working cooy. Aside from the technological novelty of that gearbox, there isn't much in it's favor. It's noisier, slower, less reliable (especially with age) and got worse mileage. In it's favor, it was easier for the lazy driver to manage in stop-and-go traffic - but those types of people rarely buy old 911s nowadays.
Drivin' Ivan answers the same question in a different way! ua-cam.com/video/xEfw8zUwPtU/v-deo.html
Bravo Jack, another great video. I have to say I've been very impressed by the 991 when I've driven them too. I fancy one to keep the 964 company.
Hey Paul, it would make a great companion for sure!!
Paul Wallace question is, would the 964 end up under cover and the 991 see all the action?
Nord Mann I’d like to think not, I love the 964. Not sure the wife would agree to another 911 anyway 😃
Paul Wallace a can happily report mine told me to ditch the Taycan and get a more usable and reliable 911 along the old widow maker👍🏻 Only thing I love more than the old Turbo is my wife (and kids..🤞🏻).
Nord Mann Good work 👏🏻
There must be a sweet spot between the two.
There is! 964? 993? 996? 997?
Yes possibly a modified 964.. to soft and heavy as standard!
I think perhaps the older 911 may be a more rewarding experience daily, given that most of us can’t go super fast to get the most enjoyment out of the newer 911s. My 3.2 is fun to drive even at ‘around town’ speeds due to the feel, smell and sound. I wonder if the new cars have that?
The reliability and maintenance needed on a 50 year old car...Daily driver? 997 GTS
I'd take my 6 GT3 over both. Last of the non assisted 911's outside of ABS and some steering assistance. Compromised as a road car, but on the right road and on most tracks, astonishingly challenging to exploit properly.
Hey thanks Steve, did not know you had a GT3?? Thought just the Audi??
@@Number27 I used to have a 6 GT3 mate, don't still have it. R8 V10+ and MX5 race car and an AMG EClass (a rubbish diesel one, but don't tell anyone) and sadly, no more Polo GTI.
Not a fan of anything after the 997 really. Would be fun to see a 70’s 911E compared to the new 911E. Nice video!
Sleepy!!! Thanks for watching little fella
interesting that you didn't mention the feeling of size when driving along the same roads. Perhaps the newer car didn't feel wider, longer, heavier as one might expect.
I think the newer cars hide their size/mass because they are so accurate in their controls and rapid in their acceleration and deceleration. By comparison, driving an older 997 or 964, G series felt so much slower, looser and unpredictable at speed needing to use the space afforded by the smaller body to move the car around within the lane.
@@ghepardogts hadn't thought of it like that, makes sense, though any car has a particular scale of road that it begins to feel uncomfortable in, in direct relation to its width and bulk. Hence why even a less sophisticated handling but smaller car will often be faster down narrow b roads.
Good point, there is a definite difference but had so much on my mind on the day that I missed the size advantage
This video is taken in England right, but you seem to have an Aussie or Kiwi twang. Is that the case?
Ha ha ha!
In fact I’m Italian of origin but came to the Uk when I was 7.. occasionally others have commented on my twang but generally people wouldn’t say I’ve got an accent!
I certainly picked a 911 turbo with RUF modifications.over the modern counterpart .I couldn't care less about all the complex sophistication that goes with it
When I look at these types of cars I take into consideration maintenance and insurance the two bug-a-boos of investment and ownership. There was/is a clip of "new" owner of a Porsche who experienced so many problems the company allegedly bought it back from him! Sad!
Zero issues with my 997 GTS...Wax off...
Classic 🙂
We as a nation always love our old dog 🐕 because of the history we shared the unconditional love of always being there always making us smile 😊 and reminiscing of summer days spent together. And then comes the new pup 🐶 it’s fun 🥳😁it’s faster ,stronger and bigger than the old dog 🐕 it doesn’t need treating with TLC it’s a naughty ruffty tuffty fighting machine 😛it wants to go just as far as you can go and more. So there’s no man who can make that choice because of course he still loves his old dog and he always will until the day it sadly passes away 😔But when we want to hunt run and fight we take the pup 🐶 out 🤪😋 💨💨💨👍🏽
😂👌 - thanks for watching as always JB!
Number27 😊
A lot of the weight gain is improvements in safety. Try crashing an early 911 (901) and see if you survive or lose your legs.
Common interior DNA? It’s right in front of you ooOoo
HawkMillFarm Let’s not forget about the gauge cluster and the ignition position. 😃
Wasn’t the LWB introduced in 1969 ? Not 1967? Not sure
Yes, you’re right!!
0:53 someone was lurking... can see him in the door mirror. I hate trying to film anything when someone is watching me.
No reason to choose, they are two versions of the same approach, so one of each please. Lovely video mate.
Modern Porsche’s, since really the 997, have much more in common with other modern cars than any heritage with the older 911s. Hence the classic ones give a far more unique ‘Porsche’ experience.
What a load of cobblers. Nice scarf.
Sign me up for a later model
Or, take the old 911 and put a 3.0 liter high compression engine in it. I guarantee that when you drive those twisty roads at speed you’ll get intense levels of both fear AND adrenaline as the (50! year old) no nannies car tries to kill you in every corner. Full commitment and attention is required...and it’s simply EXHILARATING! The new cars do everything well...but driving an old one fast is where the magic is.
if i had the cash to buy one ??? still like the old one better
911E all the way!!! But it must be a manual!
I’m currently considering my options.
1) Keep the 964 Turbo and swap the Insignia Sport Tourer and get the Taycan for everyday family runabout.
2) Same as above, but ditch the Taycan and get a manual 991.1 4S Cabrio with a loud exhaust.
3) Get rid of them all and let the wife handle the family hauling in her 4x4 Countryman and get myself a Huracan🤔🤔🤔
Interesting.. I think the Huravan might bore you eventually unless you get the 2 wheel drive model prone of. The latest cars
4 years on, no one will ever read this. I started thinking of the Floyd, Gilmour in particular.
In later days, he was surely a better player, and he had all sorts of equipment to sound better too. But I liked it better back in Ummagumma days, when he didn’t even have a decent Fuzz yet but still mesmerized me with every song. He had to work so hard to do it. Later on, he sounded a bit lazy. The sound of Sorrow was impressive, the playing… neh. I could’ve done that. In fact, I did once until I got bored with it.
I wouldn’t even dare try Careful.
Well, that’s my analogy for the 911’s. I like the old better, if only because it makes me dream. The new doesn’t, it just is. Makes me wonder what ‘better’ really means.
Only in the UK does one lane, count as two.
😄😄😄
Few people should attempt to 'hustle' a classic 911 down a twisty road, especially if that road is at all unfamiliar. The car can bite so hard and so fast, it's just shocking. A disciplined expert driver can extract truly impressive performance, but all others should think thrice before making the attempt.
A modern 911, with sophisticated electronic stability control, is an entirely different experience. It will calmly cover for ham-fisted mistakes that would have a classic 911 shooting off the road backward. The driver won't even know he's done anything wrong.
So the question is, how do you want to go fast? Are you a talented ballsy hero expert driver, willing to accept the challenge and face the potential consequences of a single, easily made mistake? Or do you want to drive a modern wunderwagon, in which you simply indicate the speed and heading you desire, and the car does it all for you?
In an ideal world you would have both of them.As a sportscar the 911 has nearly no equals.
would love both!!!
give me the 911e as my daily and the 991 as the one I sell to buy a 930
Long wheelbase started 69 not 67.
From the video seems to be the 911 is superior emotion wise, while the 991 is superior performance wise. Probably, if you want the purest driving experience, you have to accept the faults of the earliest 911 and stay with them!
That makes sense.. those early cars are really lovely. Thanks for watching!!
Yeah but when are you going to do a Volvo video?
Not sure the channel is ready for that.. bit yes, as soon as it’s ready! Let me know
The silhouette is enough
Sure is!! Thanks for watching buddy!
If you EVER find yourself asking such a question.Please don't hesitate to leave the classics, to we who never ponder .
Designers should "weightwatcher" their creation..... 1st: Light is right
2ndly in term of ecoresponsability and efficiency....smaller is better
And finally 3rdly, they look more when smaller....
Yes they should!
Short wheelbase went to 68; brakes on the 69-70 were excellent, ventilated discs. Not sure that this comparison makes any sense - compare cars against their competitors of the day. I had a 69 911e in the 80’s and I have a 996 now, with a 356 in between. You can certainly trace the lineage of these cars when you drive and work on them, although their performance is clearly different, but this is the case for all cars over time. This review is fairly uninformed to put it mildly.
Jack - very sorry - but I have to point out a glaring error for the 991.1 "S" - the power to weight ratio you quote is 240bhp / ton.
At 1,415kg (Wikipedia or the Porsche original brochure), the power / ton you quote would mean that it only has 340bhp and not the 395 plus bhp that it actually does - and at 280 bhp/ton - double the early car you feature.
No problem but wa the one I was drinking a series 2? That has 395 but the series 997.1 S has 345 I think which is where I may have got confused.
Number 27 - Your comment was at 00:53. 991.1 not 997 at all. 🤔 I should know as I have a late 2014 model "S". 😏
I try to like the 991 and 992 but I just can't. I'm sure they're nice to drive, but they're just too huge for 911. The 997 and bellow feel like proper 911.
I like the old stuff, but would never actually drive it on modern roads. Too little crash structure.
Too many people wax philosophical about the early Porkers. I have owned 3 and, while I thought they were ok to look at, form follows function and all that, I never found them particularly pretty. Certainly when compared to any of 50 different Italian cars of the vintage, each prettier than the next, the 911 and 912 are red headed step children. On how they perform too, when they were really cheap (I sold my last one in 2006 for less than $10K) they were really fun. No one wanted them so parts were really cheap too. Looking at this Sportomatic selling for £100k I gasped. $125,000 buys one hell of a lot of car. No one, save for a boomer with too much money should pay attention. Speculators have snapped all of these up hoping to make bank on them later. As soon as the boomers shuffle off this mortal coil, they will all come back to earth, but like chevys from the 50s, no one will care. As someone who owned three and drove them like they were meant to be, cheap and cheerful they were great, for a hundred large they are truly nothing to write home about. (BTW, my current car is a 997 with many, many miles that I thrash too. No one wants those now either and I hope they never do).
997s are great cars! I do love the early 911s but agree they are overvalued!!
I wish that you would have stayed with it.. In my opiniin, You would have made it!
LWB is MY69 not 67....
nah... not on your nelly... There were turbo charged air cooled 911's that no one ever argued were not true 911s. I'm not sure if Porsche were dumb or smart not to change the name when they changed the cooling, I think if they were being honest with their history it would have been significant enough to warrant a name change though.
buy a 997 and you have both. old and new