For all my SBF fans Fullboost has 2 excellent builds. One is “How to build horsepower” and the other is “how to build a high horsepower street engine.” Love the sound of the SBF, I’ve owned a .060 over 408 so it was maybe 409-411? The thing was a beast and turned my lame van into an insane van.
What we learnt is that: 1: Dual plenum intakes are awesome (like OEM's have been suing for along time) 2: VVT is a game changer Keep testing, I keep watching
Richard, I'd love to see a Trickflow 5.0 series of videos. Tw heads, 11rs, high ports, etc. All their intakes, streeburner, track heat, tfsr, box r,. Cams, stage 1, 2, etc. All on a 302/306 c.i. engine. Love your videos. Thank you.
this must be a little stressful to keep up with demands, but these video are indeed awesome, like a kid watches hot wheels videos, i love hearing the specs and different results depending on combo/ specifications. i just recently got my 91 ford 5.0ho dialed in my bmw e36, i love how much there is to the world of sbf.
That was literally the perfect video for what I’m currently going through. I have a TFS-R on a 357w and not super happy with it. I want to swap to a super vic efi and if it’s similar the the 302 results it’s a no brainer. The box seems like a solid choice too but that requires me to hammer my fire wall in and I don’t want that on my truck
Great content, thanks! Currently building a 408W with AFR220 cnc's, 880 Trickflow, forged internals, custom Crower roller 105 lsa .625 .625. for my AC Cobra. Lumpy lumpy
Richard, Could you do a test of the TFS Box-R v Holly 8.2" SBF Ford Hi-Ram Intake Manifold with 105mm LS Throttle Body Flange Top? I'm sure that the Holly would win for total horsepower. But I really want to see if the $80 price difference is worth it. Bart
more 351 w 408 w 427 w 460 w stuff this was a engine few people looked at 30 years ago now seems to bethe hot one i built my first one in 1989 and never looked back hope you do more of these and i still believe in carbs
The problem with the R is the runner entries in the plenum. They really need to have the plenum cut off and the runner entries reworked with a better radius up at the top and even up the runners. Then weld the plenum back on. They will pick up a bunch of power at higher rpm and end up pretty comparable to the box r. That one responds well to having the pockets in the plenum plated over and smoothed and clean up the radiuses into the runners.
I have heard the TFS "R" upper intake has some kind of a reverse taper or choke point in it. When you took away the runner length with the box and it didn't lose torque down low, that backed up the "R" runner flaw.
I was just going to post this. TMoss cut one apart and the runners where pretty kinked inside. Ed Curtis will also tell you every time he can that the R manifold is junk unfortunately
Great video Richard, liked the test between efi and carburation on the same combination. Could you please do a test between the Victor jr and Super Victor on that 408......would be very interested to see how the power cure shifts..
More content like this please! I'd like to see an efi intake shootout on the 408w. I'm trying to decide between Holley high ram, TFS, square bore with elbow, and Edelbrock Truck. TB size comparison would be awesome also! 408 is in a 96 bronco, torque over hp is the desire.
I have been thinking about switching to a Box R on my 331 in my 95 GTS. (10.5:1, Anderson N71, AFR 185) This just confirms that my Edelbrock Performer RPM II needs to come off and find it's way onto my 302 in my 90 Coupe 👍
@stang92boy did you make the switch to Box R ? I’m considering the same swap. Would like to cut the RPM II upper and remove some runner length. Also port the TB opening to 90 mm -probably need some welding there.
Thank You 🙏 I’ve been waiting for this intake test to select the next manifold for my build on 408w. Now it’s a decision between super victor and Holley Hi Ram! Hint hint 😉 I’m thinking since the Holley is a tunnel ram design it’ll be even a little better than the super victor like it was on the ls3 intake shootout
I wonder if 20lbs extra foot pounds in a car or truck would make a difference. The extra weight of all the fuel injection compared to the carb set up would be interesting to see
EFI benefits outweigh the added weight. With tuning, and programming, you can get it where it's happy. And, pretty fun. Have an EFI 5.0 ranger. It's way better across the board than my dad's carbed 460 that doesn't wanna start or stay running.
Since you’ve done a destroked LS can you perform the same test on a SBF? Compare a short deck 302W vs a tall deck destroked to 302. Would be curious to see that comparison.
Have you done a test comparing the edelbrock 2924 with a carburetor vs the edelbrock 29245 with a 4150 throttle body? I thought you did but I couldn't find it. I would like to see how a "wet" style works when it's converted to a "dry" style intake with MPFI.
Great test! We are planning a mild 347 build for my sons fox body and are torn between the Trick Flow Street Burner and the Box R. I'd love to see a test between the 2 on a 347. I lean towards a Box R.
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks Richard! This will certainly be a build more focused on drivability, more torque than HP type of thing. Small long tube headers, small cam, something in your go to 274 range, decent idle good vacuum etc... I just sure like the looks of that Box R. :)
Super Richie, I feel like you made this video for me. I asked a few days ago if you had any box vs runner intake tests and you made a this. You even touched on my comment about xe274 in a stroker. Thanks so much. I often reread your article on mustang 360 where you made 500hp with a Kenne Bell on an AFR & XE274 equipped 302. The dyno sheets are unfortunately missing from the article but most of the pics and the story still survive. One thing I always wondered about that article is it says stock pistons were used but I don't see a compression number. Some research says HO engines ranged from 8.3 to 9.2. Do your notes indicate what the ratio was? I am attempting to reproduce your results but for a daily driven 3800lb AWD truck. AFR, 2.1KB, XE266 because auto and daily, 347, running 8.5:1 because I might tow and I don't want to be octane limited. I think a 5 speed Fox body would tolerate a more aggressive cam and compression. Thanks again.
@@richardholdener1727 Would distribution be a nightmare with the Super Victor EFI, especially without being able to add fuel per cylinder? Any solutions in that case?
Little off topic I would think that carb style port EFI intakes would smoke typical modern efi intakes, they seem to be way more direct path...? but i havent seen evidence of it.
Richard, I want to build this 408W, do you have anymore details on the engine build that I can get? It makes the perfect amount of power and torque for my foxbody as you mentioned in the video :)
There’s a photo of an R cut open vs a Systemax 2 somewhere. Might help explain why the box R did better. Do you have a comparison of a ported Systemax 2 vs the tfsR ?
I have tested a ported Holley vs a tfs -r on my old nmra pure street engine and the Holley was 17 peak hp and 8 tq better than the tfs r. This is a high rpm n/a 310 combo.
Hey Richard thanks for doing this video on TFS intakes. finally some really info n results. Question? I’m currently running very similar set up with close to the #’s have here on your 331ci setup. ( 9:8:1 347ci, 11r Cnc 205cc, comp XE282HR, tapered accufab 75/90. N box intake tuned w/SCT ) car made 415 whp / 480ish motor. I feel like it kinda Low #’s for the setup n even more after watching this video. My question for you sir, where am I losing power? I feel like I have a problem but idk where to start. any thoughts?any advice? I feel I should be making 50 more hp easily. can u help?
Yeah... After my last Carb vs Injection comment\question I did realise that - because Fuel Injection pulses (& variably)as opposed to Carbs constant fuel stream(let me know if I'm wrong as I did not pay attention to the workings of Carbs back when I first got my driving license) - fuel injection saves\wastes less gas compared to Carbs... But that still doesn't explain\help me understand why a EFI system - at east in theory - should make more power than a Carb in the same engine... Anyways - I saw a video of a Twin 4 Barrel Carb Classic engine - do you have any dyno data on how much power going from a single Carb to a Dual Carb setup affects power? My first thought when I saw that was - the Carb version of Individual Throttle Bodies - lol... =]
the carb usually makes more power on the same intake (like an edel vic jr with efi ports) because it offers charge cooling that port injection does not
Ok, so maybe i missed something so please don't hate. Let's compare a 383 sbc ORRR a 383 ls to see how it compares to the stroker sbf's power wise and bang for the buck.???
I personally like both carburetion and fuel injection (mechanical and electronic) but the 1 thing you have to remember is a carb has better "latent heat of vaporization". This is why some carb setups with turbochargers didnt run an intercooler... even though you always want to reduce iats in a positive pressure manifold system or naturally aspirated
@@austindoud273 running an intercooler that isnt properly sized for the lbs per min volume flow is just as stupid. Not only will it be ineffective at dropping iats, it will actually become a restriction and reduce horsepower and torque
More likely the people were broke ($), or ignorant, or didn't have the space to plumb in an intercooler in a blow through installation. Or the carb was in front of the turbo. There was a time a long time ago, that intercoolers just weren't used because they simply weren't available, or they were thought to really hurt throttle response.
This ported Cobra made 6% less power than a ported Box R that had better headers than the ported Cobra test. ua-cam.com/video/H2TxED2Rhxg/v-deo.htmlsi=KAQPA1JWL6BxSZbM
I'm happy to do a test on the same day, same dyno, same motor etc... If you want to show how well your ported manifolds do. Best way to compare things is run them on the same motor
More pushrod SBF stuff please!!! There’s still a lot of us out here 👍
Best believe that!
Damn, straight
Hell yeah
Yep
The go to man for SBF testing. Thanks for posting your years worth of testing on these engines. There are still a whole bunch of folks running these.
For all my SBF fans Fullboost has 2 excellent builds. One is “How to build horsepower” and the other is “how to build a high horsepower street engine.” Love the sound of the SBF, I’ve owned a .060 over 408 so it was maybe 409-411? The thing was a beast and turned my lame van into an insane van.
414
What we learnt is that:
1: Dual plenum intakes are awesome (like OEM's have been suing for along time)
2: VVT is a game changer
Keep testing, I keep watching
Ford fan here!!
Same here! Love the New Edge in your profile pic. What’s done to it?!
Same here 👍
Richard, I'd love to see a Trickflow 5.0 series of videos. Tw heads, 11rs, high ports, etc. All their intakes, streeburner, track heat, tfsr, box r,. Cams, stage 1, 2, etc. All on a 302/306 c.i. engine. Love your videos. Thank you.
I like hearing about the sbf. Thanks.
Yes, more of these
Richard thank you love the SBF stuff saves me money eliminates the guess work on combinations. 👍👍
Wow im surprised the box R intake did that much better on the 331 stroker.
I'm here Richard! I never miss your show!
More SBF stuff. Would like to see you split a 302 w/some boost.
😂 I've been trying but unsuccessful so far at 18lbs.
Just make the jump to a 5.8 (351w)! Been there, done that! Don't waste the money past 400hp!
I would love to see a 306 with AFR 185 heads, e303 cam and BBK SSI intake run..
@@hendo337 have you experimented with this combo before? Just curious.
this must be a little stressful to keep up with demands, but these video are indeed awesome, like a kid watches hot wheels videos, i love hearing the specs and different results depending on combo/ specifications. i just recently got my 91 ford 5.0ho dialed in my bmw e36, i love how much there is to the world of sbf.
That was literally the perfect video for what I’m currently going through. I have a TFS-R on a 357w and not super happy with it. I want to swap to a super vic efi and if it’s similar the the 302 results it’s a no brainer. The box seems like a solid choice too but that requires me to hammer my fire wall in and I don’t want that on my truck
Great content, thanks! Currently building a 408W with AFR220 cnc's, 880 Trickflow, forged internals, custom Crower roller 105 lsa .625 .625. for my AC Cobra. Lumpy lumpy
be careful, lots of horsepower for a light tricky handling car!
Richard,
Could you do a test of the TFS Box-R v Holly 8.2" SBF Ford Hi-Ram Intake Manifold with 105mm LS Throttle Body Flange Top? I'm sure that the Holly would win for total horsepower. But I really want to see if the $80 price difference is worth it.
Bart
Wonder what will happen with a 347, 185 afr heads and a box intake.
Been waiting for this
more 351 w 408 w 427 w 460 w stuff this was a engine few people looked at 30 years ago now seems to bethe hot one i built my first one in 1989 and never looked back hope you do more of these and i still believe in carbs
Ford Power #1 here! Thanks for the great informative videos Richard.
The problem with the R is the runner entries in the plenum. They really need to have the plenum cut off and the runner entries reworked with a better radius up at the top and even up the runners. Then weld the plenum back on. They will pick up a bunch of power at higher rpm and end up pretty comparable to the box r. That one responds well to having the pockets in the plenum plated over and smoothed and clean up the radiuses into the runners.
I have heard the TFS "R" upper intake has some kind of a reverse taper or choke point in it. When you took away the runner length with the box and it didn't lose torque down low, that backed up the "R" runner flaw.
I was just going to post this. TMoss cut one apart and the runners where pretty kinked inside. Ed Curtis will also tell you every time he can that the R manifold is junk unfortunately
Great video Richard, liked the test between efi and carburation on the same combination. Could you please do a test between the Victor jr and Super Victor on that 408......would be very interested to see how the power cure shifts..
the super vic makes more on top
As always great video but I would love to see a video comparing SBF long runner intake vs carb EFI setup?
More content like this please! I'd like to see an efi intake shootout on the 408w. I'm trying to decide between Holley high ram, TFS, square bore with elbow, and Edelbrock Truck. TB size comparison would be awesome also! 408 is in a 96 bronco, torque over hp is the desire.
pick the hi ram
I have been thinking about switching to a Box R on my 331 in my 95 GTS. (10.5:1, Anderson N71, AFR 185) This just confirms that my Edelbrock Performer RPM II needs to come off and find it's way onto my 302 in my 90 Coupe 👍
the rpm II is a good intake
the rpm II is a good intake
@stang92boy did you make the switch to Box R ? I’m considering the same swap. Would like to cut the RPM II upper and remove some runner length. Also port the TB opening to 90 mm -probably need some welding there.
Thank You 🙏 I’ve been waiting for this intake test to select the next manifold for my build on 408w. Now it’s a decision between super victor and Holley Hi Ram! Hint hint 😉 I’m thinking since the Holley is a tunnel ram design it’ll be even a little better than the super victor like it was on the ls3 intake shootout
I’d like to see more Cleveland cylinder head and intake shootout. Definitely have to use the Chris Parker funnel web intake.
Thank you Richard!
Would like to see these set up ran with the multi port efi with the fast carburetor setup
I wonder if 20lbs extra foot pounds in a car or truck would make a difference. The extra weight of all the fuel injection compared to the carb set up would be interesting to see
You'd lose more weight going on a diet lol
EFI benefits outweigh the added weight. With tuning, and programming, you can get it where it's happy. And, pretty fun. Have an EFI 5.0 ranger. It's way better across the board than my dad's carbed 460 that doesn't wanna start or stay running.
Since you’ve done a destroked LS can you perform the same test on a SBF? Compare a short deck 302W vs a tall deck destroked to 302. Would be curious to see that comparison.
Just got off work. Thanks man
Richard have you ever tested the newer Holley Hi-Ram for SBF?
NOT YET
Have you done a test comparing the edelbrock 2924 with a carburetor vs the edelbrock 29245 with a 4150 throttle body? I thought you did but I couldn't find it. I would like to see how a "wet" style works when it's converted to a "dry" style intake with MPFI.
the manifold works the same-the only change is reduced charge cooling from the fuel flow
Great test! We are planning a mild 347 build for my sons fox body and are torn between the Trick Flow Street Burner and the Box R. I'd love to see a test between the 2 on a 347. I lean towards a Box R.
street burner for under 6000 rpm
@@richardholdener1727 Thanks Richard! This will certainly be a build more focused on drivability, more torque than HP type of thing. Small long tube headers, small cam, something in your go to 274 range, decent idle good vacuum etc... I just sure like the looks of that Box R. :)
Super Richie, I feel like you made this video for me. I asked a few days ago if you had any box vs runner intake tests and you made a this. You even touched on my comment about xe274 in a stroker. Thanks so much. I often reread your article on mustang 360 where you made 500hp with a Kenne Bell on an AFR & XE274 equipped 302. The dyno sheets are unfortunately missing from the article but most of the pics and the story still survive. One thing I always wondered about that article is it says stock pistons were used but I don't see a compression number. Some research says HO engines ranged from 8.3 to 9.2. Do your notes indicate what the ratio was? I am attempting to reproduce your results but for a daily driven 3800lb AWD truck. AFR, 2.1KB, XE266 because auto and daily, 347, running 8.5:1 because I might tow and I don't want to be octane limited. I think a 5 speed Fox body would tolerate a more aggressive cam and compression. Thanks again.
What kind of truck?
stock is 9.2 on an HO
@@droppedf100 that weight is ballpark for a short chassis ranger..
Just the video I was waiting for.
Thank you!
If the carburetor intake manifold was converted to fuel injection, would it make more power or not?
slightly less than carb
@@richardholdener1727 Would distribution be a nightmare with the Super Victor EFI, especially without being able to add fuel per cylinder? Any solutions in that case?
Did the 331 need a stronger valve spring to control the valves?
SPRINGS NEED TO BE CORRECT FOR RPM RANGE AND LIFT
Theoretical question- if you could add more plenum volume to the Box R what would the effects be? Say double the volume.
I don't think it would change much
Please explain what happened to the home port 706 vs 243 btr video?
Problem with the Box R is that it doesn't fit under a stock foxbody hood.
Little off topic I would think that carb style port EFI intakes would smoke typical modern efi intakes, they seem to be way more direct path...? but i havent seen evidence of it.
direct path doesn't make more power-proper runner length and design makes power
The question I have is which one works better with a blower . Maybe thats your next ttest?
Richard, I want to build this 408W, do you have anymore details on the engine build that I can get? It makes the perfect amount of power and torque for my foxbody as you mentioned in the video :)
great video thank you
There’s a photo of an R cut open vs a Systemax 2 somewhere. Might help explain why the box R did better. Do you have a comparison of a ported Systemax 2 vs the tfsR ?
I have tested a ported Holley vs a tfs -r on my old nmra pure street engine and the Holley was 17 peak hp and 8 tq better than the tfs r. This is a high rpm n/a 310 combo.
Richard, how a bout a Super Victor efi vs carb test, I'd like to see that
WATCH THE LS VIDEO-EFI VS CARB
My question is which one works better with a blower? Maybe thats your next test.
they do the same thing with boost
Can you test the box r vs the speedmaters sidedraft kit
Rich What would it take for you to do a holley efi set up and tune vid. Then show us what you do to convert to e85?
just add 25-30% fuel
Thanks for the Box R love Richard
Great video sir
Hey Richard thanks for doing this video on TFS intakes. finally some really info n results.
Question? I’m currently running very similar set up with close to the #’s have here on your 331ci setup. ( 9:8:1 347ci, 11r Cnc 205cc, comp XE282HR, tapered accufab 75/90. N box intake tuned w/SCT ) car made 415 whp / 480ish motor. I feel like it kinda Low #’s for the setup n even more after watching this video. My question for you sir, where am I losing power? I feel like I have a problem but idk where to start. any thoughts?any advice? I feel I should be making 50 more hp easily. can u help?
is it a box R-then you need a 90, if not, that makes what I would expect (it should be sub 500 flywheel)
@@richardholdener1727 yes it is, a mild ported ( gasket matched lower ) w/42lb. Thanks I guess I’ll order the 90 tomorrow lol.
@@richardholdener1727 your awesome bro!!
Question really is " what's cheaper" and makes great power!
the single plane and carb!
@@kimmorrison9169 exactly.
Yeah... After my last Carb vs Injection comment\question I did realise that - because Fuel Injection pulses (& variably)as opposed to Carbs constant fuel stream(let me know if I'm wrong as I did not pay attention to the workings of Carbs back when I first got my driving license) - fuel injection saves\wastes less gas compared to Carbs... But that still doesn't explain\help me understand why a EFI system - at east in theory - should make more power than a Carb in the same engine... Anyways - I saw a video of a Twin 4 Barrel Carb Classic engine - do you have any dyno data on how much power going from a single Carb to a Dual Carb setup affects power? My first thought when I saw that was - the Carb version of Individual Throttle Bodies - lol... =]
the carb usually makes more power on the same intake (like an edel vic jr with efi ports) because it offers charge cooling that port injection does not
@@richardholdener1727 Oooooooh - Cool... =]
Sweet ass video. Thank you, sir.
What about the Super Vic carb vs Super Vic efi on the same 408w?
If you cut open the long runner TFS-R you'll see why it doesn't work very well.
Have you done a test comparing a gt40 intake manifold compared to the TFS R intake? Interested in seeing if its worth the extra money.
I would not make that switch
@@richardholdener1727 thanks for the input! Gt40 it is haha
I'll give up the 20 HP for all that increased torque below 5000 any time.
Ok, so maybe i missed something so please don't hate. Let's compare a 383 sbc ORRR a 383 ls to see how it compares to the stroker sbf's power wise and bang for the buck.???
What about the super victor efi ?
same intake-just no charge cooling from the carb
Dodge 4.7 mod vids please!!!
Hey can you test the box R vs tfsR on a 408 windsor.
That would be perfect for me as well as a super vic efi.
same results as 331, but even greater gains from the Box R
I personally like both carburetion and fuel injection (mechanical and electronic) but the 1 thing you have to remember is a carb has better "latent heat of vaporization". This is why some carb setups with turbochargers didnt run an intercooler... even though you always want to reduce iats in a positive pressure manifold system or naturally aspirated
Not running a intercooler is just dumb plain and simple
@@austindoud273 running an intercooler that isnt properly sized for the lbs per min volume flow is just as stupid. Not only will it be ineffective at dropping iats, it will actually become a restriction and reduce horsepower and torque
More likely the people were broke ($), or ignorant, or didn't have the space to plumb in an intercooler in a blow through installation.
Or the carb was in front of the turbo.
There was a time a long time ago, that intercoolers just weren't used because they simply weren't available, or they were thought to really hurt throttle response.
Personally I blame John Woodworth
🐿😁
Beat by 2 minutes
@@xmo552 pure stroke of luck i caught it 33 seconds after he uploaded
@@GreatLakesLogger
That was funny
Did you have any videos on the street version of this trick flow intake on a sbf?
yes-that should be up as part of a TFS top end kit
@@richardholdener1727 thanks man!
@@richardholdener1727 unfortunately I couldn’t find any such video on your channel
Any comparisons of the tfs-r long runner intake with a 90 mm opening?
none of them had that
Oh okay. Thanks for the response. I was just wondering if the 90 mm opening upper is any better than the 75. Thanks
So do you think there would be much difference in a 70 mm tb and 70 mm maf on this engine?
those would hurt power
@@richardholdener1727 10-4
The best thing A guy can do is take both combos to the drag strip and run them.
im almost at :33. and im gonna say right off carb makes most h.p. lets see...
I want my power at full throttle.
👍
This ported Cobra made 6% less power than a ported Box R that had better headers than the ported Cobra test.
ua-cam.com/video/H2TxED2Rhxg/v-deo.htmlsi=KAQPA1JWL6BxSZbM
I'm happy to do a test on the same day, same dyno, same motor etc... If you want to show how well your ported manifolds do. Best way to compare things is run them on the same motor
@@richardholdener1727 I agree 100%
Just let us know which ported manifolds you would like to test and we can get them done
I'm 351st!
Me me me me
Personally I blame squirrels
Whos the best foxbody forced induction tuner in the southeast? TN, NC, GA
Richard, in your opinion, what is the best intake manifold, or is carb best?