The Hunger Games Master Plan | Hunger Games Film Theory
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- Опубліковано 7 лют 2025
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Today Ben dives into the destitute world of Panem and the Hunger Games to reveal how President Alma Coin was manipulating EVERYTHING from the beginning! Was Prim’s name reaped randomly? Was Cinna just a good stylist? Did Coin bomb her own people?!
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Edited by :: Riley Murtagh
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I'd give good money to see Snow's face when he hears Katniss singing the Hanging Tree 😂
same here. 🤣
😂 same
Yes!!!
Probably something like this 🫨
RAGE
I think the reason Snow seems to be manipulating at the end and why he laughs is because he ~was~ trying to get katniss to kill Coin for his own benefit but that doesn't mean he was lying either. He'd rather destroy the system than see it change hands, he is laughing because he killed Coin's regime before it began not because he defeated Katniss by manipulation. He finally realised who his real enemy was.
I thought this too, just like "You may have fooled me for a while but the person you were really fooling was yourself to think you could control her." Mixed with the bitter sweet irony that despite all of their efforts to out wit eachother in the end they both lost the game because they were both too focused to really see what was going on right infront of them.
@@desimosi579 Agreed. Neither Snow or Coin had realized that Katniss was such a uncontrollable wild card while they both were trying to use her for their own means and that in the end she was the force that would take both of them down. It would be absolutely hysterical for him that just when Coin thought she had won over him she was destroyed by her own weapon . He'd love that his final victory over Coin was such a surprise and that with all of her deception and lies he had ended her with just a few truth's , not to mention he had outlasted her to see it.
Snow never lied to katniss, and coin most certainly did. Both were deeply evil, but one was about to be a whole lot worse
He said it best, "My dear miss Everdeen, I thought we'd agreed never to lie to eachother". Snow was ruthless, manipulative and power hungry yes. By all means, an absolute monster. But he never concealed to her what he was, it's the monster you know. The real danger lies in the monster you *don't* know, the wolf that dresses in sheeps clothing.
It all boils down to "If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me".
I realized Katniss in the end became the real mocking jay for President Coin, the unexpected byproduct that backfired in their secret mission, yet ended up exactly who they wanted her to be (the mocking jay).
🤯
dang, you're so right
🤯💥🤯💥🤯
I believe snow. He was too calculated to do something like that. It served him no benefit. Don’t forget Gale more or less admitted to the plan and being involved! They made a promise Snow and Katniss not to lie to one another, and through out the movies NEVER lied to her, Katniss tried to lie once, but she quickly admitted her feelings. The end bit where he talks about not lying to one another is a warning for Katniss not to ignore that gut feeling she had all along! Also Katniss ONLY agreed to another hunger games in order to request that she kills Snow, but in reality she’s already planning to Kill coin. Katniss has now become the calculated, but unlike Snow and unlike Coin, she is not ruled by the hunger for control, and not ruled by her obsessions!
Couldn’t have said it better myself!^
Plus did Snow have access to the bombs Gale and Beetee were making?Plus as you pointed out it didn't benefit Snow in any way.Plus if Snow had access to those bombs he would have found a way to use them to make Coin look bad.
always speculated that deep down, even if at a fundamental level, Snow knew the whole thing was wrong - as he says at the end of the songbirds and snakes film - the whole thing is an arena.. what if, just if, he is playing the system as part of that arena.. many dictators are in way trapped inside their own ideology, the system they inherit.. for example, suppose Snow got to become president and then just decided to announce reforms that ended the hunger games.. uproar from the capitol, potential assassination himself.. rather play along in such a way as to seem to be the one in control, while in reality having little control at all, hoping that the whole thing will collapse within ? There are hints at least in the film, like finding out katniss is still alive. On the Coln is on control argument, Katniss would be more than favored to be chosen, as Coln would no doubt be aware that her name would give ring bells to Snow (songbirds and snakes)..
If I recall, in Songbirds and Snakes, Snow invented sending supplies via drones or parachutes to the Tributes in the Hunger Games. It is this same method that ultimately turns the Capital against him, even if the bombing ploy was orchestrated by Coin.
Yes, he also uses the method to send Lucy water knowing the drones are faulty essentially using them as tiny bombs to distract the tributes attacking her.
Thats actually kinda smart writing tbh i might watch the movie. I was worried rachel zegler was gonna ruin it.
@@growingoaksOdd thing to say.. How would she ruin it? She was amazing in the role and her singing gave ke goosebumps. She has the perfect voice for Lucy Gray
@@growingoaksI had the same concern but was pleasantly surprised. Her performance was good.
Just make sure to sail the high seas for this one.
He didn’t invent it the host of the hunger games had mentioned they made the drones from the technology from the war
In the Second Movie we learn from Finnick that desirable victors are sold by Snow to the highest bidder. This leans to my fav theory that Cinna "bought" Katniss after her first game to protect her from the fate Snow had planned.
That makes sense
Not to be rude or anything, but why would he be allowed to do that when he's not even allowed to bet on her in the games? I don't think snow would've given away such a powerful tool to a stylist who has been proven to be disruptive in her favor.
Snow used prostitution to control victors, letting Cinna do that would be less than useless to that goal
It's an interesting idea but couple issues. First no person would have enough money to "buy" a person like this considering how much you would make over time. Also Katniss says that she figures that is what would have happened had it not been for Peeta since their love story is what sold the capital on them Snow wouldn't risk her being with someone else and shattering the illusion plus both times she was in the capitol she was a tribute so there wouldn't have been time even without Peeta.
What do you mean by “buys the desireable victors” HES AN OLD MAN
I love this theory. However I have always loved the idea that what makes katniss different from other protagonists was the fact that she wasn't a chosen one. She was just a girl who wanted to protect her family at all costs. I absolutely believe that everything past the 74th games is all planned out by the higher players, but before that, I don't think anyone's had a hand in that. The only way I could think it to be rigged would be snow trying to get rid of a well known poacher and this is a very easy way to.
Absolutely.
I also do think that Snow wasn't lying. Manipulation can also be done with well timed truths and speculation, not just lies. I also definitely believe Coin ensured Prim's death to ensure the more broken Katniss.
I agree! Katniss is not "the chosen one" she's just a regular girl trying to save her family. Thats the whole point of the book. She had no skills besides hunting. She could've easily been killed in the arena had it not been for.. well luck! I think the first hunger games was all natural. It wasn't until Rue that the talks of their rebellion started to grow and work behind the scenes. All the rigging definitely happened after the 1st games!!
Yeah but in that case just have her selected don't bother with Rue.
@@bram4004yeah as much as I like videos like this and coming up with theories, I still definitely subscribe to the opinion that it just happened. Sure district 13 could have been planning their rebellion, but couldn’t find the spark to start it until watching Katniss. “May the odds be ever in your favor” isn’t ironic in the sense it was planned for prim and peeta to be picked, I find it ironic because just having your name in the bowl means the odds aren’t in your favor-it means you’re another pawn in a game. Doesn’t matter how many times a name is in there, the sole fact children are entertainment fodder means the odds aren’t in anyones favor, not getting picked just means you have a higher chance the next year again negating the sentiment.
Yeah. It is an interesting take. But having it so Katniss from the start was puppeted from behiund the scenes by others takes away from what makes her unique as a protagonist.
I remember hating the third book from the time that Katniss agreed to the 76th Hunger Games up until she killed Coin. I was so mad at how out of character it was for her and only realized once she killed Coin that she was actually playing Coin. The second read through was much more satisfying
I had to flip back and reread the ending too.
I was so angry, too. Until she fired the arrow. She had to play along to get in close enough to stop it. And set an example to others that no tyrant is beyond reproach.
I watched the movies first and I felt the same way. When I finally read the books it really solidified her thought process for me. But of course books are always better😂
I remember being confused and fighting with some friends over scenes.
Later I found out the audiobook, which introduced me to the francise, was a shortend version. Imo curical scenes were left out. Years later I learned about the more Hunger Games decision.
and haymitch also voting yes because he trusts katniss and knows that if she would vote yes for that, she definitely did it for a reason
I love how in the deleted scene in Catching Fire where Snow talks about the creation of the Mockingjay, you can hear the disdain for the species that Snow has - Donald Sutherland definitely nailed how much he hated them PERFECTLY. 😂
That last scene with the bombing is always one that makes me mad and sad at the same time. If you read the books instead of just watching movies, you see and understand Katniss so much more, what she went through and how she operates. There’s a lot that get missed in the movies and scenes that are so much worse and more impactful. I remember reading these for the first time the impact that last scene left on me.
I felt the same way! Then Buttercup making it back home wounded only to find grieving Katniss. Salt in wound
I always wished they shown her suffering more like the books after Prim died. That's why the story even started. It was all out of the love for her sister and trying to protect her. That's all she lived for. And then she dies... the book just takes you there in her grief. They completely brush over it in the movie and it's SUCH a disservice.
47:32 I don’t think he was lying. A ballad of songbirds and snakes makes a HUGE point about how every time Snow lied, horrible things happened to him. Not to mention Dr Gaul punishing him and Clemensia for lying. He’ll kill and scheme to get to power, but I don’t think he would lie to katniss at this point, especially after what he said in the second book.
I always fully believed that Snow at no point lied to Katniss from that conversation onward, and considering his failing health, I wonder if he was just... gambling with the whole country's future on purpose? He gets to play a hand in what might either be the downfall of the old system, or its solidifying, because if this second rebellion fails? A third will not happen, guaranteed. So he would either go down as the man who secured Panem forever, or lead to its downfall, but either way he would be remembered. And that's kinda all he ever wanted, to live up to his father's legacy and go down in history. It doesn't matter who he has to betray to do that, how many need to die.
Yep
Yeah, I agree. Lying would just harm Snow at this point. He has much more to gain by honesty.
Even if “horrible things” didn’t supposedly happen - if he hadn’t been conditioned to refrain from lying - Snow held absolute power. This means that he doesn’t NEED to lie …he controls by fear, torture, imprisonment and annihilation.
Actually, being able to tell the horrible truth - to express one’s ruthlessness in no uncertain terms without risk of exposure or negative ramifications - is the ULTIMATE display of power.
Snow didn’t tell the truth because he was morally compelled to - he did so by way of rubbing Katniss’ nose in the disparity between their relative strength and confidence.
A lot of what I hear about the storyline in Ballad sounds silly - and thoroughly unnecessary by way of a backstory. The “lying” rationale is one example.
The plot about why the Mockingjay was especially meaningful to Snow sounds reasonable - but the within the context of all the rest, the book smacks of Collins’ depraved desire to wring out more profit from her brainchild.
Not only is Gale too capable, but he's also the wrong kind of rebel. He's too angry, takes it too personally that Katniss--his, ahem, "property", shall we say--was taken from him, beyond where he could protect her. He's very possessive of her, I think, and to an unhealthy degree, whereas Peeta sees the larger picture of holding onto humanity, and NOT stooping to the "by any means necessary" mindset that Gale embodies. Rereading the books as an adult, I find Gale to be too much.
❤
He'd be a massive liability due to his tendency to be extremely vocal about his hatred of the Capitol. When he's stressed he loses his temper, and he's just too efficient at killing. He'd take down the other tributes far too efficiently, and would never allow himself to become close to any other tributes the way Katniss did. It was Katniss' compassion toward Rue and Thresh (and Thresh's letting her go) that spoke to District 10 and the other districts, and led them to rebel.
Gale has always been Collins' favorite child. I'm _certain_ her editors pushed to remove his character, or at least not have Katniss nonsensically remain feeling torn between him and Peeta, but Collins just couldn't do it. Gale is definitely too much, Katniss' appraisal of him makes _her_ characterization suffer, _and_ he's not necessary to the story beyond the first book. Collins' personal affection for him (or maybe for a person in her real life that he was based on) is really the only reason to have kept him.
@@jacksyoutubechannel4045 from what ive heard editors/ those kinda people actually made collins write in the love triangle, I think gale was originally meant to just be Katniss's cousin. to me this makes sense but im not fully sure if it is true.
If you've ready Ballad yet, Gale almost replicates what Snow was to Lucy.
Coin didn't necessarily have to send the bombers to District 8. She could have been the one to leak the info that Katniss was there though. That way her hands are clean.
Oooh, I like that take.
All Coin needed to know was that it was going to be bombed, and then send Katniss there. Way easier to time it that way.
Well, if Snow had sent the bombs to district 8, why would it have been broadcasted? From my understanding, Snow’s whole thing is to keep the districts ignorant to his cruelty to keep himself in power. If he sent the bombs, I think it would’ve been more hush-hush. He relies on fear, yes, but if he was trying to hold onto the reign he had over the districts, it’s doubtful he would commit war crimes and atrocities in public viewing. That would only give more power to the rebels, right?
with your interpretation her hands are as clean as a third party who profits from child labor.
It was Snow sent the Bomber in District 8 and Coin sent the Gifts which is the Bombs was in th3 Capitol. It was the time Prim was killed in action.
I think Prim being chosen as tribute and Katniss volunteering for her were just happenstance that Coin and the leaders of 13 very quickly decided to use to their advantage. Any entry means you can be reaped just as Rue was so that means Prim by chance could have been too. I think the leaders of 13 were actively looking to spark their rebellion and Katniss came along to do just that. Once Katniss volunteered for Prim they saw the impact it had and the plans for Katniss to be the star of their planned rebellion were quickly made. Cinna was immediately called in by Plutarch to help them make Katniss the star of the games. Katniss thanks to Cinna, Peeta and Haymitch supporting her did all too well at her job. She surprisingly orchestrated winning with Peeta which made her a target of Snow and more valuable as the very symbol of the new rebellion. The rebellion knew they had to both protect and gain control of her hence the plan of Katniss and Peeta going in for the quarter quell as a way for the rebellion to retrieve them, which went awry with Peeta being captured. The rest fell into place for Coin who only intended to use Katniss any way she could.
If I remember correctly Rue had younger siblings and therefor put her name in multiple times to get extra food, so her chance of getting pulled was higher than Prims. However, I do agree that any entry means Prim always had a chance of being picked without outside interference.
To the day Prims death makes me cry. On my first read I felt something coming my mind going " no no no no no" then the bombs went off and I physically screamed. That moment pulls so much emotion from me. Absolutely one of the best stories I've had theprivilage of reading.
I got angry at Suzanne Collins when I read Prim's death.
@RRBBVamp same.
I was just like "what was the point?! She did all this to protect her sister, and her sister still died. What was the point then?."
I haven’t read the books and have only just saw the movies yesterday, the minute I saw the “aid” I knew it was bombs. The one thing I did not expect even for a second was Prim going to help and getting blown up. I’m really upset she was killed.
That pretty much me but Finnick 😭
Ever since I heard that the 75th hungergames quarter quell was that the tributes would be picked from victors... I always thought that that sounded like the perfect 100 year quarter quell. That even the tributes who had won, and had earned a lifetime out of the reapings... would now have to go through it again. So my theory is that it was written for the 100th hunger games, and not the 75th, but then switched.
I had that same thought.
That's sorta what's implied. Kinda convenient that as soon as someone challenges the higher power. Said higher power gets a second chance at stopping it
The only drawback of that theory is there is no way they could have known that there would be 1 male and 1 female winner from each district alive at the time.
@@FFGuy-eu7hryou miss the point of the theory then, after the 74th Snow switched the 100th and 75th so Kamdis would have to go back into the hunger games
@@joshg6491 No I understand that, I just don't agree with the theory that the idea of the victors returning to the games in that format was ever one of the quarter quells, because it would require that each district have 1 living male and 1 living female tribute alive at that time, something the game makers could not have realistically forseen, and as I remember, the quarter quells were set up for like hundreds of years.
Plus there is a deleted scene of Plutarch burning the original paper and replacing it with one he made.
I think there's enough evidence to be all but confirmed that everything after Katniss and Peeta winning the 74th is the chess match between Coin and Snow. The second she pulled that move with the berries, she branded herself and Peeta as a symbol of push back against the capitol, and while Snow was trying to put things in place to kill that push, Coin was putting her pieces in place to spark the fire for which Katniss gathered the kindling. And for that, I honestly 100% believe you that: that Coin bombed both 8 and the capitol kids (the latter I already believed); that every ally Katniss has post game 1 was practically hand picked by Coin; etc. Obviously, Snow's work against Katniss and Coin is rather latent so there's no convincing needed there.
What I'm not entirely sold on was that even the 74th game was carefully orchestrated by Coin. While yes, there are a lot of unlikely coincidences, and it's interesting to think of how those coincidences can fit purely in the world, at some point in literary analysis, you need to admit that you can't always have a story without some serious coincidences. Primrose being chosen is THE inciting incident of the series; Katniss HAS to stand out both for the capitol and the future rebels. Without these coincidences, there just isn't a story, and to me, it seems more likely that the book 1 coincidences are more so a product of the author orchestrating events rather than in-world characters manipulating events.
I will, however, concede that Coin could have still influenced things, at least partially. Cinna and Plutarch were almost certainly already a part of the resistance. They both could have been put into place as 'watchdogs'. People to keep an eye out on potential useful tributes. After Katniss volunteered, Coin saw her potential, and used that coincidence to her advantage, telling Cinna and Plutarch to keep an eye on her, give her a fighting chance, and see if she could be a potential symbol of the rebellion.
Thus, do I think that Coin hand-picked the district 12 tributes? Not really. But I do think that she was actively looking for someone with potential, and through seeing Katniss volunteer and having whatever info she might have gathered on her (and likely countless other potential tributes), decided to roll the dice with Katniss, and see if it was time to start the rebellion.
I have to agree with you on absolutely every point. The tragedy of the reaping is that it IS random, and Prim being picked with only one entry further drives that point - nobody is safe and the odds are not in your favor, even if they seem like they are. Once Katniss volunteered, I can definitely see her being on Snow and Coin’s radar and them moving pieces into place (e.g. Cinna/Plutarch), but I don’t think she was hand-picked. One of the aspects I love about Katniss’s story is that she isn’t “the chosen one.” She’s just a girl trying to protect her sister.
I can see Coin knowing the potential exploitable relationships of tributes that would be likely candidates for the Mockingjay role with Katniss being one of these candidates. Its plausible that this knowledge could be used to rig the reaping to draw Prim or that the drawing wasn't rigged and it was pure bad luck and Katniss' act of volunteering brought her to the attention of Coin who then got all the plans rolling to get Plutarch and Cinna in there to run tactics.
I believe that a tribute from district 12 was planned to be the Mocking Jay, but not Katniss. The Mocking Jay pin itself and Cinna reaction to it is the evidence for the theory. Katniss is just the victim of circumstance. Cinna had to make the 12th tribute to memorable, no matter the out come. For the narrative of the tragedy to spin out. The actual revolt was to begin on the 75th games, to use the narrative setup from the tragedy of 74th games.
Katniss's continual survival was not planned for and was problematic, but Coin could not kill Katniss overtly, it had to a tragedy caused by Snow. Though Coin had another person that she could make into a tragedy Primrose, that bombing was intentional.
Should we also mention that Rue gave Katniss a mockingjay pin before she died? Is she a rebel or part of the plan?
They basically outright say in the books coined bombed the capital
Alternate Theory: Plutarch Heavensbee orchestrated everything. Considering that he is really the sole Capitol member to remain in power, along with the fact that he was a head gamemaker (meaning he would likely have a much better grasp of human nature than Coin), and he was simultaneously the second in command for both Snow and Coin, points to the idea that he could have had a much greater hand. Further, we learn in the prequel that the Heavensbees are one of if not the richest family in all of Panem, so what motivation would Plutarch have for joining the rebellion in the first place other than taking ultimate control? Based on the her actions in the final chapters, I don't think that Coin is smart enough to make all of the dominos fall in the exact way described in the video; we do know, however, that Plutarch is, just based on his ascent to the Head Gamemaker position under Snow's nose.
AGREED... THIS MAKES SO MUCH SENSE 🤯🤯🤯
Yup. The figurehead is almost never the one "really" planning, because you're too in the limelight. The schemers have to be close to power, but not the main power.
Dang, I see it.
What does this actually change in the theory, tho: that Plutarch was the orchestrator?? Oooooo wowwwwwwww so amazingggggg. We’re not here for Coin, Snow, or anyone else: this is obviously all about Katniss; that’s why she’s the main character.
Edit: this isn’t an ‘alternate theory’ this is just adding upon any valid theory for this story.
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When they voted on that final "symbolic" Hunger Games, Haymitch doesn't technically say "yes." He just says "I'm with the Mockingjay." That always stuck out to me as unusual. Now it makes soooo much more sense. He wasn't agreeing with Coin's Hunger Games, he was specifically agreeing with Katniss and Katniss's realization that Coin is no better than Snow.
My theory has always been that the real puppetmaster is Plutarch. It's unreasonable to think that Coin would have that much ability and interest to spy on Katniss to this degree. I find it far more likely that she came to Plutarch's attention when the hovercraft found Lavinia, the reheaded rebel who Gale and Katniss saw captured in the forest and who ultimately became her Avox. The fact that she was actually Katniss' Avox adds credence to this, because I find it far more likely that Snow would have killed Katniss and Gale for being out of bounds instead of pulling this elaborate warning schema that was almost guaranteed to backfire by getting Katniss' temper up and invoking her protective/compassionate side. Whereas I could actually see Plutarch being intrigued by these two intrepid hunters and looking more deeply into their personal histories. I think if he would dismiss Gale almost immediately as being a viable figurehead due to just HOW vocally anti-Capitol he is, as he would be a massive risk on-air, and would likely lead to Seneca Crane ordering him dealt with by Mutts or something. Katniss however, has a hugely touching backstory, with a VERY obvious trigger point (Prim), and she's typically very quiet by nature so she's not nearly as much of a threat to Plutarch's plans as Gale is because she's less likely to run off at the mouth. She's invested in the Games because she HAS to protect Prim, which makes her predictable and reliable to a point. I also think Rue was another intentional reaping, because Plutarch recognized Katniss' deep NEED to protect those less strong than she is, and wanted someone inside the arena who would remind Katniss of Prim so that she would be more likely to have exactly the empathetic reaction that she did, which was a HUGE factor in setting off District 10's rebellion, which is the domino that sets off the whole chain of events leading to other Districts rebelling.
Add in to this the fact that most of the manipulation in SCB's theory is far more in the scope and planning of a GAMEMAKER, and much of it would be INCREDIBLY difficult to communicate and plan between the Capitol and District 13 without getting caught or drawing attention. Plutarch is the Severus Snape of Hunger Games, nominally serving two different masters and spying on both, while keeping himself indispensable and serving only his own goals, though Plutarch's goals were definitely considerably more complex and self-serving than Snape's obsession with protecting Lilly's child. Plutarch is also from an INCREDIBLY influential family, which would make it very easy to have agents amongst the Peacekeepers in various districts to feed him information, and makes it significantly easier to manipulate those in the Capitol for information on Snow and other government movings. Consider Finnick and his secrets.
Also, for all that SCB put emphasis on the technological supremacy of District 13, most of that technology has been stolen and smuggled from the Capitol over time. Yes, District 13 started out with an information, technological, and military advantage over the other districts; but lack of resources and a declining population make it VERY unlikely that they would manage to maintain a pace equal to the Capitol in terms of technological advancements. Especially when you factor in the ENORMOUS R&D budget given to the Games to keep them "interesting".
My only thing is that Plutarch never became the president...still good points though!
Amazing I was thinking that too. I want to add that since the Heavensbee family has been prominent in the Capitol they know a lot of the Snow's secrets for years like Casca knew Coryo's dad, therefor Pluttard was able to connect Maude Ivory as a relative of the Snow's old flame therefor Katniss was related to Lucy Gray and he might rigged Prim's name so Katniss volunteer and the rest is history.
I think that this is very plausable and well reasoned, but also its fairly plausable (in my brain) that Plutarch could have been the one to originally be interested in Katniss but already be in leauge with Coin so he points her out and then helps in crafting Coins plan and Coin is still ultimately the shady one. But also this is stemming from a highly biased brain who loves Plutarch at 3:30 am 😂
@@kristygoodman7790no, but he does call attention to the candidate that ends up winning as his preferred candidate..
I think it was actually the Mayors daughter who was supposed to volunteer for Prim. She was sort of friends with Katniss and her aunt had been brutally killed in the 50th hunger games, giving her mother at least plenty of motive to join the rebellion. In the mayor’s there was a room with a bunch of screens showing the revolts that Katniss very conveniently finds.
When complimented on her dress she says something along the lines of having to look good if she’s going to the Capital. She wears the Mockingjay pin (I think it was her Mothers) which she gives to Katniss when she visits her before she leaves. She also readily gives Katniss her mother’s morphine (her mom was an addict) to help Gale after he was whipped.
I think Coin having a hand in the reaping of Prim and generally anything before Katniss and Peeta win the games is unlikely. It would indeed be a longshot to pick out one subborn girl and a guy who may or may not be in love with her even in the prospect of immanent death and expect a revolution to form around that.
Agreed. My memory is that Coin didn't even like the idea of Katniss as the Mockingjay and wanted the more biddable Peeta as their "mascot" instead.I don't think Coin ever had the vision to be able to imagine how someone like Katniss could have ignited the rebellion. I don't think anyone would have guessed that Peeta, who had barely interacted with Katniss, was not only so in love with her he would willingly lay down his own chances of survival for her but also turn out to be a public relations savant. In a different type of story, I might call it providence, but I don't think it was the result of any human planning.
Someone did, she is way to handpicked to trap snows attantion on her, if not coin plutach but someone did. It would be way to much of an coincedance that all this thing correlate.
@@SingingSealRiana Let's call it poetic justice and I'll subscribe to that
@@SingingSealRianayeah she was handpicked, by susanne collins lol
I’ve always have though Prim was reaped to punish Katniss for illegal hunting.
This is a historic moment. SCB is finally doing Hunger Games. Take it all in, my friends.
Oh I am…The Hunger Games is my franchise so I’m in heaven right now
@@ChelseaAllen420 Same here. I am such a hardcore fan of the series and have been BEGGING for them to do Hunger Games content as one of the fandoms here for so long and now it's a reality! ❤❤
@@Lauren_210 it’s also such a great one to dissect
I saw this video and immediately went “ooh!”
I KNOWWW
I don’t think Snow ever lied to Katniss, I think Coin lied to her quite a lot that was the difference
Yee, both were absolutely evil; but the person who is more truthful is always the more dangerous as you can never actually tell if they are lying or not, but a person who always lies it gets easier to find holes/the lies themselves (this actually happened in real life too... Sadly the people did something about it too late and two innocent people got murdered)
I don't think that Alma Coin planned this from the beginning because that is not how rebellion works. I think Katniss only started becoming option as a rebel after Rue died. When they saw district 11 rise and deliver the bread the rebels saw their possible revolutionist. On the surveillance aspect I don't think that district 12 was monitored that much before Katniss. Panem might be small but surveilling that many people just becomes white noise eventually Obviously Snow would hyper surveil his enemy, the man poisons himself to outsmart enemies. Far too many things have to go Coins way for this plan to work. Katniss running to the cornucopia could have gotten her killed, she may have not found the water in time, the fireballs could have killed her, the trackerjackers could have taken her out. There are too many moving parts.
Exactly, Hunger games is a very complex story. It mirrors real rebellions much better than many other pieces of fiction. That doesn't make it better per se but it makes it highly unlikely that an adult ruler would put the entire rebellion in the hands of an angsty and unpredictable child. What type of idiot would you need to be to do that... And Alma Coin was no idiot. She used her once she saw her potential but imagine the incredible waste of resources that would take to spy on a bunch of children from the 12th, just to see if one fitted, and imagine how much would they have to take for granted expecting her and Peeta to form an alliance. Realistically, how would they know Peeta loved her to this depth? People around them knew he had a crush but you don't put yourself in danger for a crush. How would they know Katniss had it in her to be the face of the rebellion? When she talked about it with Gale she didn't have the most clear stance on the subject. How would they even know she'd volunteer for Prim? Like, yeah, she was likely to do so but to choose her would mean to put a bunch of mechanisms in movement for... A bet. She could have not volunteered. No one knew. They knew she was brave and resilient, but this is the type of thing no one knows how they're actually gonna react once it comes. It would have been a waste of time and resources, it would have been a bad plan. A plan like that has the level of thought and naive thinking a teenager would put into it, not a president, or even an influential person like Plutarch. They don't waste resources like that on people they can't truly control from the beginning.
Don't forget that before their first games, Haymitch had private sessions with them. This is where Peeta is convinced that he should express his love for Katniss. Haymitch IS a rebel supporter and could have known at least some of the plan. Peeta might not have said anything but by doing so he creates and excites a narrative of love in the arena.
I never caught that their unit was "Squad 451" until now. The propaganda squad was named (by Collins for her dystopia novels) after one of the most famous dystopian novels of all time. Nice.
Didn't even realize it until I saw this comment lol
OH MY GOD I NEVER MADE THE CONNECTION
Mind. Blown.
Okay, don't get me wrong, I love the Harry Potter videos, but seeing something different is nice. Could you do a Percy Jackson theory next? Also, keep up the fantastic work, guys.
👏
Here, here
Odds are that will happen when the series comes out
I'd love to see Eragon theories as well. New show on D+ as well
Yes absolutely
If I remember correctly Prim technically wasn't old enough that be a medic she was just an apprentice of sorts so for her to actually be at the Capitol speaks volumes that Coun planned the whole bombing with Beetee and Gale's idea.
I can’t stand coin but I don’t think she knew prim would be there because prim was so young( and coin had a young daughter who was killed I just don’t think she would have sent prim)what I think happened is prim in her own way being just as willful, stubborn in her beliefs and a wild card herself like her sister sneakily got her way in with the medic crew. You noticed before the bomb went off her looking guilty when katniss called her name because she wasn’t supposed to be there.
@@tracymorgan5386But Katniss also mentions (in her head) that Prim couldn't have been there without approval. Which is probably true, with District 13 security.
Coin suggested another hunger games and bombed the capitol children she doesn't care about kids@tracymorgan5386
I don't know if Suzanne Collins meant to but that line "A black bird, slightly larger than the Jabberjays, suddenly opened its wings to reveal two patches of dazzling white as it lifted its beak in song," instantly invoked the image from the Catching Fire interviews when Katniss's dress transforms and she raises her arms. So, so good.
You make me feel like this is actual history and not fiction. Love it.
I do not believe that that Prims name being picked was rigged at all the point of the hunger games is that there isn’t a chosen one. Also Coin never likes or wants to rescue her at all. Katniss wasn’t chosen to be the face of the rebellion until her actions in the 1st games.
I think the idea that Coin was monitoring potential District 12 tributes for exploitable relationships, skills, and qualities that could serve her well as the mockingjay is plausible and even likely. The idea of the rigging is likely though I don't think it was specifically targeted at Prim and Katniss. I think that it was rigged to get a greater probability of drawing the name of any 12 year old in the district and I think Coin did this in other districts to provoke responses that would put candidates for the mockingjay on her radar and provoke rebellion. Katniss volunteering for her sister and being the only one to do such a thing made her the one Coin would pick. Thats why Cinna and Plutarch were in the Capitol running tactics. Coin deployed them once she knew she had her Mockingjay.
I think it was actually snows move. Katniss father knew about the lake and the hanging tree all of which knowing snows backstory and character is most likely why he died in a mining “accident” I think snow killed him and gales father for the rebel talks and district uprisings/disobedience. Prim was just to hammer it home for katniss because he knew her and gale were leaving to hunt and selling it in the market. He wanted to punish her so she wouldn’t follow her fathers footsteps. But he didn’t plan on the berries happening, and accidentally setting off the rebellion. I also like to think it’s poetic poetry that these choices he makes leads to his demise considering katniss knew the lake and the song and is potentially Maude ivory’s granddaughter.
I would argue the contrary, she was handpicked to be the spark, to catch snows attention and was supposed to then die a martyr with peeta serving as an easy to controll figurehead of the rebellion but coin lost controll over the fire she wanted
I always liked Snow... not for his character but for his honesty. I always believed him.
Thats what makes him scary
Honest villainy, minus the poison.
I bet he never said, "No I didn't!" But more, "Look, could I have poisoned him if I'm drinking from the same cup?" Manipulation through truths and questions. Gotta respect the honest villain.
If you read TBOSS you'll see he lies and lies and lies! He tells people what they want to hear
@@natalie9978yeah but that was when he was an 18 year old. Most folks haven’t read TBOSS, and only know him to be his refined, slimy adult self.
@@joshie1873 yeah in this instance i beleive him over coin because he has nothing to lose
They may have been betting on more than Katniss volunteering for Prim as it always seemed odd to me that Rue got chosen the same year Prim was. They may have been hoping someone would volunteer for her too (not sure if they had someone specific in mind but probably). Plus the young boy that gets picked, all could have been potential lures for figureheads for the rebellion.
That’s true! I did wonder why it seemed suspicious that if Katniss didn’t volunteer, there would have been 3 clearly younger tributes. Like you said, maybe it was to lure 3 other possible figure heads. Maybe it was also to get more people to join the rebellion. Like making martyrs out of them if they didn’t win?
They wouldn't let anyone volunteer for Rue. That district was ruled with an iron fist and she was punishment for them.
To some extent Rue had Thresh. He obviously cared for her; if he hadn’t he would have just thanked Katniss for making his job easier, and then hacked her to shreds.
I agree that Rue was probably intentionally chosen, but I bet it was to remind Katniss of Prim. To make Katniss more spontaneous, and have a reminder of why she volunteered so she would keep fighting
@@charrissarucker7416 the boy from Four is canonically a Career, they just made him young for some reason in the movies.
Coin ordering the bombing the District 8 hospital makes perfect since considering she bombed her own people at Snow's mansion to win the war quickly. And her glimpsing the beginnings of this plan by Gail, which horrified her and permanently changed her feelings for him. Brillant analysis.
What, you hear Snow himself ordering the bombing
@@robertclarke7411 That was added for the movies, in the books, it's all from Katniss' perspective and you are told that the bombers are from the capital, but then later, Katniss sees a hovercraft with the Capitol logo dropping bombs on the capitol, and that's why everyone turns against Snow.
I LOVE the actor they cast for Snow. HE WAS FREAKING PERFECT!!
Yes, I love Donald Sutherland.
28:48 there is actually a deleted scene from the second movie of plutarch removing the letter for the 3th quarter quell, burning it, and replacing it with a new one. so even though it was deleted, the movie writers probably agreed with you on that part
Considering Suzanne Collins was *all up in* the production of her books into movies, I’d be willing to bet that she put that in - just like Stephanie Meyer did when she added the fight scene vision of Alice’s into the movie (bc she regretted not putting it in the book).
I thought that was in the movie. I read all of the books before the movies. I haven't seen this latest prequel yet though. I am a writer also and I adore Suzanne Collins but I don't believe in the planning theory by Coin or Snow but I do believe Plutarch has planned this for a while.
I also have all of the movies on DVDs. I bought them after I saw the movies in theaters so maybe the DVDs included the deleted scenes.
I think that the events of the first book/movie go along without Coin's involvment. As soon as Katniss and Peeta win, by defying the Capital, Coin gets to work. I don't see how Coin could have predicted that Katniss would be a spark to ignite the rebellion in the first book/movie. Maybe she knew Katniss had a good chance of winning (perhaps through contact with the D12 mayor), but what could that do to even weaken the Capital?
District 12 winners are rather rare. If a district from the outskirts won, it could /slowly/ progress the movement at the very least.
@neen2660 is too much of a stretch for Coin's involvement regardless. From what we could tell in the books and the movie, she only involved herself in places where she could get results either immediately or they were worth it for the long run, neither of which were the case for assisting Katniss in the first hunger games. If District 13 was involved with anything regarding Kat Katniss' involvement in the hunger games from the start, it was low-level assistance only once she was already in the arena. It would honestly make more sense for the Capitol to have rigged the reaping for Katniss to be chosen so that they could make an example of someone breaking their rules.
@@brokenshadow549080 i think that Coin could be involved with the events of the first book for a few reasons. Firstly, Plutarch would be familiar with the power of propaganda and through his influence he and Coin would realize that propaganda would be an invaluable asset in the war against the capitol and they would need it to to gain support from other districts. Especially the wealthy districts. They would know they needed a figurehead that they could use to manipulate the people of Panem to gain support for the rebellion. Wouldn't you say this is a worthy long term goal for Coin? Sure, It would take an absurd amount of planning and the knowledge of Snow that Lucy had but if they went to the poorest district and looked at their pool of tributes and potential tributes they could figure out which relationships would be exploitable both in the reaping and at the games and then plan from there. There's obviously stuff they would need to leave to chance and they would have to have contingencies for various outcomes of the Games in the first book but that level of planning could be done. What would be gained by putting Katniss in that first game for breaking when nobody but Snow knew she'd broken them. If it was the Capitol making an example then her rule breaking would have been all over the broadcasts after she volunteered.
I think it is possible but rather than trying to make her some big symbol to start a rebellion she would have been meant to sow the seeds for a longer term plan. By uplifting her into a crowd favourite, maybe have her do well and almost win it would bring some confidence to the outer districts. On top of that if they were monitoring her they would know she has a stubborn and rebellious streak and would likely do something or somethings to rub it in the capitals face.
Overall I think is more likely that she was one of many smaller plans that Coin had maturing and this one just happen to hit the jackpot.
I ATE this video up, this was such a fantastic analysis of the BIG plot of the whole saga. I do think Snow never OUTRIGHT lied to Katniss. He's manipulative using the truth, which makes him even more interesting in my opinion. And I had never thought of the District 8 Bombing, but it makes a lot of sense that Coin orchestrated it
Same, the district 8 bombings I would buy as Coin. Especially the way her district doesn't believe in "wasting" resources. She may not value the injured and may prefer not to feel responsible for caring for them. Despicable but further supports she may make that sacrifice for the propaganda.
I really like this theory my only issue with it is, If Coin did all this research on Katniss from the start and realised she would sacrifice herself for Prim. Then surely Coin would also know how far she could push Katniss and realise that is was a very real risk that Katniss might kill Coin at the end, especially if she let Katniss talk to Coin in the garden
The 75th Games’ Quell rules were originally something different. I believe there is a deleted scene from the Catching Fire film where Plutarch is seen replacing the original 75th card with the edited card containing the “existing pool of victors” rule.
With this, Snow couldn’t have been behind the Quell rules- that was also the planning of Plutarch/Coin.
those quarter quell boxes would have had to have been made before the 1st quarter quell, or around the time of the first quarter quell
they're underground, under high security clearance, and there are enough boxes of twists to last for at least 2000 years of hunger games
so it's not that possible for plutarch or coin to be behind the quell rules because that would make plutarch and coin both at least 70 years old.
we don't know plutarch's age, but we do know coin is only in her 50's.
we know from an interview with suzanne collins that plutarch had been a rebel since at least the time of finnick's games (the 65th)
snow also wasn't shocked when he heard the twist of the 75th. if snow MADE the twists, he would certainly question why one of the boxes was changed.
@@bonnielovely yeah, snow had no prior knowledge of the boxes, I’m just saying it’s highly likely Plutarch at least made the swap because of that deleted scene, plus he would have clearance for that area as head game maker.
@@hughduffy213 yes, i’m agreeing with you that plutarch definitely swapped them as part of the plan, he even burns the old one.
but there is no way that him, snow, or coin actually stuffed the boxes themselves when they were originally created before the first quarter quell
@@bonnielovely ohhhhh yes I totally understand you- misread that! Yeah the original boxes were def made by someone else, maybe Dr Gaul?
Snow never loved Lucy Grey he saw her as property as ‘his girl’ even at one point blatantly saying, when she is back in district 12, that he wishes she was back locked in the capital because he always had knowledge on her whereabouts. He wishes he could literally keep her as a prisoner so that he didn’t need to worry about what she is doing now that she is free.
I agree, but I don't believe Snow knows that. He believes he loves her.
❤
I think coin would’ve been very pleased knowing she separated two strong and powerful people, Katniss and Gale, with the whole bombing incident. Less chance of them working together in the future.
Will you be making more Hunger Games theory videos? I'd like more of them if possible.
please
Fax
They should also do maze runner vids if possible
I’m hoping they at least review the new movie when it comes out
What do you think really happened to Lucy Gray? Is Katniss related to the Covey? Who is Coin?
I'd say my favorite part of Snow's last conversation with Katniss, is that he knows that either way, Truth or Lie, Katniss would kill Coin because of her sister. Katniss knew what she wanted to protect and when she failed, she focused on getting revenge on all who were responsible because her one purpose, protecting Prim, was now pointless and she didnt care what happened to the world, as long as her sister was avenged
I honestly think Snow's laughter at the end was of surprise and enjoyment. I think for as bad as he is, he wanted Katniss to make the "right" decision, which he doesn't believe she will. I want to think that the closer he was to death, the more he would embrace a change but he didn't want that change to be a Coin monarchy.
While reading TBOSAS, I realized that Snow and Katniss are very similar characters, and I think he sees that which is why he always seems to speak to her so fondly, and I think his laughing was supposed to be a "see? you just killed Coin. you did what I wanted and now you're just like me" OR we know he was already sick so it could've been like a "lol okay well I'm already dying so"
I think Snow kept an eye on 12, not underestimating them like most people because of his relationship with Lucy Grey. So when he sees someone likable breaking the rules, he thinks watching her sister die will break her like her mother was broken when her dad died.
This is a good explanation for Prim being reaped, but does not explain the other convenient "accidents" like Cinna being her stylist.
I completely agree with this. He saw too many similarities between her and Lucy Grey and just wanted to break her so she wouldn't become something of a rebel. I don't think Coin organized the whole 74th games but she may have seen this as a golden opportunity to strike and use Katniss as her symbol.
@@patrickdematosribeiro1845 I don't think Cinna was an accident. I think Cinna was a political dissident who decided to take action, like many others, when inspired by Katniss's example. After becoming Katniss's stylist, I think Plutarch Heavensbee and/or others the Capitol cell of the rebellion reached out to him and pulled him into the fold.
@@StarryEyed0590 It is possible, but Katniss's year as tribute was the first year the tributes of district twelve had a spectacular outfit. If this was not planned by anyone, Katniss was incredible lucky that her year was the first year her district had a competent stylist.
@@patrickdematosribeiro1845 It's not luck if the skilled stylist is moved by your story to directly take action to help you.
Coin definitely wanted Katniss gone bc she wasnt controllable. Coin told someone (idr who) that she really wanted to rescue Peeta from the arena
The only thing Coin wanted from Katniss (at least in Catching Fire) was a spark. Cause Katniss' fire is uncontrollable
Boggs told Katniss this
She was the perfect spark and distraction for snow, but having her a martyr and easy to controll peeta as a head figure would have served her way better and she knew that
I think Cinna worked closely with Tigris. We know she helped hide them in the 3rd book, and I was shocked she was related to Snow when Ballads came out. She would be a perfect double agent, knowing Snow so well and having been a stylist during games at some point.
I think this is an interesting aspect especially in the sense that we don’t know what happened with Lucy grey but she does have info about snow but not the only person who knows who he is at heart. So Tigris could’ve also been maybe telling district 13 snows secrets and who he is as a person since we don’t know for sure where Lucy is and if she got to say anything to anyone about snow.
You guys failed to acknowledge that Plutarch actually is the one who changed the quarter quell envelopes, that's a Coin move not a Snow move
I love that moment. 'Do you think that if i still had an airship at that time, that i would have been caught here?'
Thank you SO much for handling the Hunger Games!!
On the note of the theory that Katniss is a descendant of Maude Ivory:
Can you IMAGINE Snow's reaction when he heard The Hanging Tree coming from Katniss during the propo break ins to Peeta? Given his personality, that could've been the last straw, obsession wise...
I have a feeling Ben is more in his element with Hunger Games than with Harry Potter. I liked this change a lot.
Same! It's also different with theories that are in a first person narrative because there's more leeway in terms of what the character doesn't know.
what he didn't mention was the deleted scene in catching fire where it's PLUTARCH who switches the quarter quell cards, so it was definitely Coin's plan to shove her back into the game just to get her out
I forgot about that. Yeah, that tracks.
that wasn't coin's plan - she wanted to rescue peeta, not katniss. he's more pliable.
@@favouriteghost Coin would have still needed Peeta in a rescuable position; stuck in District 12 with Snow watching would be difficult (hello Katniss's kiss with Gayle). So, reaping from the existing pool of victors puts Peeta either in the arena (if Haymitch is selected, as seen) or next to Plutarch as a mentor (if Haymitch volunteers if Peeta is selected). Coin might have like Peeta more, but Kaniss was more valuable. For Coin, ideally, she would have gotten them both and together they could have unified the districts faster, then she would have martyred Katniss and used Peeta as a sympathetic figure (as Katniss describes at one point).
That's the interpretation the movie goes with. It's relevant to the discussion, but not canon to the books.
I personally think Coin being involved from before Katniss went into the games is a huge stretch but I believe basically every point you made from Catching Fire onwards is very valid
This would make the interpretation of “may the odds be ever in your favor” very interesting. Because in this scenario, there are no odds.
I would love it if you guys made more Hunger Games videos and if you do, I think you should explore the theory that Maude Ivory might actually be Katniss‘ grandmother. One of the big reasons why this theory has been suggested is that Lucy Gray remarks that Maude never forgets a song, even if she’s only heard it once, and we know that Lucy Gray only performs her song, In the Hanging Tree once, yet Katniss knows it too. Given that the song was banned after this one performance, it likely wouldn’t have become a popular song in District 12, so why does Katniss know it? Maude remembered the song and would continue to sing it in her home to honor her cousin and would go on to teach it to her son, who then taught it to his daughter, Katniss.
Oh absolutely and I guarantee they are certainly going to do this theory for sure because it is by far the most popular and biggest theory coming out of Ballad (and certainly one where the conversations about it will only ramp up after people who see the film and casual fans having their first time discussing it 😅)
There are so many clues such as Maude Ivory being able to memorize any song after one hearing (just like Katniss can), mockingjays falling silent for them when they sing (just like Mr. Everdeen and Katniss), Maude Ivory being 8-9 years old during Ballad so her age to when she could have kids could work out given the timeline of 64 years in between Ballad and The Hunger Games, her and the rest of the covey knowing about places such as the lake, meadow, and cabin especially (places Katniss has been to and not many people in District 12 know about), singing being banned from The Hob and someone like her would have to be the one who would be able to pass down “The Hanging Tree” and “Deep in the Meadow” to Mr. Everdeen so he would be able to pass it down to Katniss, etc. So many clues that could make this possibly work!
You called it, they made that video.
This is the only theory I believe in so far
What's the video called @@root13pie
@@Angela-xi1oq It's called "The TRUTH About Katniss and Lucy Gray." It's in their Hunger Games playlist.
I like that the Star Squad is number 451, the temperature in Fahrenheit at which paper burns , and links to Fahrenheit 451, the book about a rebel in a dystopian society dressed up as a utopia.
Small error at 3:14: The total amount of entries you start with, before factoring in tesserae, only increases by 1 each year so
12 year old: 1 time
13 year old: 2 times
14 year old: 3 times
15 year old: 4 times
And so on and so on up to 18.
So a 13 year old would only have a base number of entries at 2, not 3
The math budget must have been used up.
To me it sounds like he's saying they're cumulative, so 1 for the first year, plus two for the second would be 3 total... or at least that's what it sounded like.
@@Whyteroze28that is the error. It is cumulative but their name is only added a minimum of 1 time each year no matter your age. So minimum times an 18 yr old’s name is entered is 7.
@@ArtByDesign80 oh, OK, that makes sense.
thank you!
I've always assumed that Snow does, in fact, tell Katniss the truth in their final conversation in the Rose Garden and that he is very much indeed calling out her own doubts with the "We agreed not to lie to each other." Besides, Gale all but confirms that Snow is telling the truth when Katniss confronts him, admitting that it was at the very least a design that he had worked on. I'm shocked, honestly, at how plausible this theory really is. It also, incidentally, makes me realize I really need to read the prequel book.
23:35: there is absolutely no way Rue was natural. A 12 year old deeply reminiscent of Katniss’ little sister but for color-who is also alive days into the games, tracking Katniss.
Uh, what.
Don’t forget how instrumental her martyrdom and Thresh driving that message home is for the manpower and food the rebellion gets from 11.
I just finished the books last week.
I think Plutarch planned on Katniss killing Coin, he was the master game maker after all!
What are the odds Coin would be standing on a pedestal right behind Snow?
Someone had to think that was a good idea, and Coin agreed!?
On other points from the books... It was disappointing they left out Madge giving her the pin in the movies. It seemed significant that it came from the mayor's daughter!
Also not mentioned, in the books, Katniss is wondering why Coin let a 14 year old girl into a war zone as a medic, they had hundreds of trained medics, they didn't need this one, in this place, in this time!
And... let's not forget the roll Haymitch played. The drunkard is a great way to make people believe you're incompetent, while still making plans! He's a game maker in his own right (and brilliantly played by Woody Harrelson)!
Also Madge having the pin ties back to Haymitch’s Games and his alliance with Maysilee Donner, who was best friends with Katniss’ mum!
Yay I’m so happy you guys are branching out even more and doing Hunger Games!
I can only imagine Coin explaining this to one of her subordinates like Yzma explaining one of her plans to Kronk in the Emperor's New Groove:
"First, I'll rig the reaping ball in District 12 so Primrose's name is selected, then, there should be around a 99.99999999999999 percent certainty that her sister will volunteer herself in the games. And when she does, I'll have her stylist give her an outfit that'll incite the masses even further. Next, I'll arrange the games in such a way that she'll join me. And then, using her as my pawn, I'll take over Panem!"
“It’s brilliant brillian brilliant I tell you! Genius, I say!”
Indeed it is, @@Boundwithflame23
@@michaelflores9384and also ridiculus enough to defeat a boggart ;)
that sounds a little too exteme.
@@Ch50304 thats the point of having villains
Great theory! I also want to contribute that katniss' father was the one to teach her how to hunt, it's her father's bow she uses to feed her family, and he's a noted woodsman among everyone in district 12. He taught her to use a bow, and He was the one who set up the deal with the mayor to deliver strawberries from beyond the fence in the first place, which katniss continues fulfilling after her father's passing. I think it's fairly likely then, that katniss' father was a mole sent in by district 13 to curry favor with the district 12 administration under the nose of the Capital. It just so happened that his daughter, a native of district 12, was the perfect candidate to fulfill Coin's plan of rebellion, or maybe he raised her with that thought in mind the whole time. District 13 is heavily militarized, "the war never ended for us," which means it's likely that if her father came from D13 he would hold those same viewpoints, not just setting his family up for survival but also preparing them to eventually take a pivotal role in overthrowing the Capital.
So based on your theory, Katniss’ father was like Tris Prior’s mother from Divergent. Both being raised in societies away from the main one, and later sent to live among Main Society (District 12/Chicago) to further the goals of the Secret One. The only difference is that one was a rebellion while the other one was observing a life long experiment.
@@AngelArcher17 more or less yeah, I read both series' when I was in grade school and that's kind of what led me to this theory.
I don’t think I thought about Katniss’s father being from 13. It makes sense since he clearly made sure she was a good hunter.
I think it’s very unlikely for that, he was a known hunter but he wasn’t the only one. Unless Lucy survived and got to district thirteen (which she didn’t know was there) there’s no way that he would know the hanging tree song, it’s more likely that he was descendant of the other covey such as Lucy’s cousin Maude who heard the song and was a singer as well.
The answer is no, Coin was supporting the resistance which Katniss has nothing to do with until the Berry's at the end of the first hunger game when she becomes a symbol of defiance. Coin hates that Katniss exists because its going to make it harder for her to gain power once the revolutions finished, why would she create what she feared?
President coin and president snow were both villains in their own right. Their deaths were for the best.
In my view, it's where her name comes from. She and Snow are 2 sides of the same coin.
@@Me-wk3ix yep 😊👍
Oh man you guys! I never thought I'd see the day when SCB make a video about The Hunger Games. I knew they liked the series and that they read it regularly, but I never thought this day would come
For someone like Katniss, someone who did everything they possibly could to survive, which involves always being in control of their immediate surroundings, to realize that another person has been pulling the strings of your life since you reached puberty would be psychologically devastating. It would mean that Coin, technically, chose this girl's future husband, and then severely harmed or killed people she loved, in order to bend her to her will. If Katniss had, indeed, fired the arrow at Snow, I don't think Coin would've allowed her to live very long past that. Katniss would've had to escape and go into hiding, which might've led to a smaller-scaled continuation of the war. She was too headstrong, in Coin's eyes, which the woman says outright when she wishes that they'd saved Peeta, instead. He was far easier to manipulate and control, which we see right from the beginning of the story, when they're initially entering the Capitol on the train. Peeta was willing to behave differently in public, hiding his true nature in order to please others. Katniss was not, which made her a threat to Coin's hoped-for power. Though it was a problem for her, for others in their social circle, like Haymitch and Plutarch, Katniss's "I am who I am. Deal with it" attitude was something to be admired. (7/21/2023)
i honestly agree with this theory, i think it solidifies the ongoing theme of katniss and other characters simply just being “players in their game” and suggests that at the end of the day, in this society no one genuinely has their own agency, because even the actions they would do on their own with out any interference is promoted by orchestrated events.
the theory is incredible farfetched - you cant guess how someone will react. There is no way they could have known Katniss would volunteer or WIN. I do believe that the capital itself might have rigged the reaping because Katniss was breaking the rules left and right, but i dont think coin was involved (though for the 2nd hunger games i DO think she was).
i wonder if Rue’s reaping was rigged too, to show what would have happened to Prim. Or to purposely try to get Katniss’ empathy on camera and continue portraying her as a protective big sister. it could have been a backup rebel plot to portray her more as a protective older sister rather than a star-crossed lover if Peeta died or something. Or maybe Rue just had to take out a lot of tesserae for all her younger siblings.
This is an interesting concept and I do believe that Coin is diabolical and cunning and she very likely could’ve arranged the attack on district 8, however, I think it goes a little far suggesting that she actually orchestrated the entire thing with Katniss because she never liked Katniss, so why would she pin all of her hopes on her? If anything, I think Coin was working on a rebellion plan with people in the capital, like Plutarch, and when Katniss did what she did, it really was a random act, but became the perfect spark to set off the rebellion in the districts.
I'd absolutely love more hunger games! I love love love that series. I don't agree that the first aspects - Prim's reaping/Katniss volunteering/Peeta's reaping were planned, but I think once Katniss showed herself to be so powerful and formidable in the games, they chose her as the symbol and worked from there. I wouldn't put it past Coin to be behind the district 8 bombings at all, though I hadn't thought about how she'd also be fine if Katniss had died there. I think Snow is telling the truth at the end, and I think "we said we wouldn't like to each other' is because Katniss does believe him - she's lying when she says she doesn't.
This was great, as somebody who never watched or read any of this and only knows about any of the story from memes and references I still understood most of it... aside from the times you talked about big climatic moments and only vaguely referenced them.
Most of it was at least possible to guess from later context, but the "berry trick" I had to google.
You could make a video about the connections between Lucy Gray and Snow and Katniss and Gale. I’m thinking mostly about the age gap being the same as well as the lake and the cabin in the woods outside or district 12 being a big part in both relationships. Maybe Snow sees himself in that relationship more so than Katniss and Peeta which is why he brought up the kiss and the fact that he knew she wasn’t really in love with Peeta.
Oh God and you could also do a video about how similar Katniss and Haymitch are. Their relationship is my favorite in the whole series because he’s the only person who truly understands her
I wanted to add another point to Alma's cruelty. I haven't read the original books in a while but ABOSAS is one of my favorites of the past few years. Although I think Suzanne Collins wanted to (correctly) tread lightly due to tilting her hand/revealing too much backstory, I also think that Alma Coin's "epidemic" that is mentioned that kills almost all of their youth and some of their adults was no epidemic at all.
They have extremely advanced technology and medicine, and clearly have no problems with cleanliness and nutrition. I personally think that there was an internal uprising and she killed them/had them killed via food, water, medicine, maybe even the air vents. I see some strong similarities to "The Giver" in this way, the false utopia that kills off twins, imperfect people, the sick, and the elderly (all twisted into thinking this is great).... and anyone who refuses to follow the status quo. Given her grooming tendencies and all of the other reasons mentioned, I think in the end Snow absolutely dissolved any remaining illusions Katniss was holding onto about Coin, when he mentioned that he wouldn't have touched the children. I think it brought back her memory about the weak answer about an epidemic killing District 13's children. I think Coin vetted out those who she knew weren't going work with her regime, and Katniss realized that would be what her new Games would be too. She never was above killing children. She groomed an entire army of people, killing off her daughter; even her husband. You're telling me she didn't move heaven and earth for her kid and husband? The surface is actually safe but even with an epidemic she never decides that maybe they should try a go aboveground? That woman? If survival had been that end-game, it would have been. Be so for real right now.
If you think about Snow's youth, and how Coin operates, after reading ABOSAS, you get a fuller picture of how similar they actually are AND why Coin had to have known information about the events with Lucy Gray. I would love to see you two do a PT 2!
I read a theory that alma coin was the the daughter of Lucy gray and president snow.
except they didn't have intercourse in that novel -- that we saw! Maybe they did. There is a theory that Coin IS Lucy Gray@@Chilietriller
Not only was this one of your longest videos, but it was your debut about the hunger games, and I am all here for it. Please make more.
I am still impressed that the author of the Hunger Game has so much action in only 4 books. And that SuperCarlinBrothers has pick ed up on all of this evidence.
Have you ever read her Underland Chronicles 😮?
Katniss herself wondered if Prim’s reaping was planned-and if it was predicted that she would volunteer.
And if the fan theory is correct that Katniss is related to Maude and Lucy then it would make sense that Prim and Katniss would be targeted for a rigged reaping.
On one level, this is a story written by an author. You can therefore assume that most of it was planned from the beginning ;-).
But if we treat this as a real or true story, then there is little evidence that Coin planned this by making sure that Primrose was drawn, etc. The reason for this is that Coin did not even want to rescue Katniss from the arena, but rather wanted to rescue Peeta.
The real planner in the story is Plutarch. Ha planned a lot during the games, but I think that the idea of using Katniss as a symbol, evolved over time when he saw how she performed in the first hungergames. In the second one, he did all he could to protect Katniss. He manipulated Snow and played along so that he could join Coin at the right moment. All this was planned.
But before the first hunger games, nobody knew who Katniss was. She was a completely unknown person from the 12th district, as far from the Capitol as it gets - who by chance or fate ended up in the centre of everything.
Loving the extra long format! I finished the fourth book yesterday so this is quite the happy coincidence 😂
🎉 the long format is excellent! And congrats on finishing the 📖
I would love to see more HG coverage; that series has SO MUCH to dissect and I still get fired up about it--the themes, the messaging, how much is missed without multiple read-throughs, etc!
Yea. 🎉 Just yes.
Dumbledore's big plan is one of my favorite series' on this channel, I'm glad you're doing it for another one!
Are we seeing a pattern? 74th game maker: Seneca CRANE, 75th game maker: Plutarch HEVANSBEE, 10th games mentor: Arachnee CRANE, and another 10th games mentor: Hilarious HEVANSBEE
I agree with 98% of this theory. Before I say the one single thing I think may be different I would just like to say that SCB covering The Hunger Games is AWESOME! I’ve been waiting a long time for this so thank you guys for making this. Now the one little point I disagree with is that the District 8 bombers were flown by rebels. I still think Snow had a hand in it, just not by accident. I think perhaps Coin somehow leaked Katniss’ presence to Snow and then let him do the dirty work. I say this because the amount of rebels who’d need to be involved in bombing the hospital would be too great a risk. I believe Katniss actually makes this point about the bombing if the children before realizing that they only needed a small “loyal or easily disposable crew” to accomplish it. The number of bombers at the hospital, however, would have required quite a bit more people and the risk of it getting out would be too high, but leaking. The information about the visit would only require a very small number of people. I may be being slightly influenced by the film as this is what happens there after Snow is shown footage of Katniss in District 8 but I think there may be some truth to this. I just questions source of that information and thinks it may have been a Coin. She knows how Snow would likely respond after finding out Katniss was just visiting a hospital filled with “damaged slaves.” This is still a brilliant move, more so in fact, as Coin lets the dirty work fall to someone else, I think.
Love this! Now we need a new theory:
When and why does Tigris abandon Coriolanus?
I love this suggestion. I wonder about it all the time
She became a stylist and was well-liked/respected until her modifications to her body went too far and she fell out of favour. Maybe she became too difficult/opinionated and Snow didn’t want to be associated with her anymore?
My bigger question is why there's no indication in Mockingjay that she's eighty years old (if there is, I missed it), and in the movie her actress was fifty-four.
@@coolnerdlll6053 Katniss describes her as being in her 50’s, I believe.
@coolnerdlll6053 I don't think that's an issue. The books tell us that people in the Capitol find ways (including surgeries) to look younger.
Given the Wallnut and Prim's demise, I completely believe that all these moves are a possibility to have happened behind the scenes. Katniss Shooting Coin was a mercy to herself far more than she ever knew.
Would love some videos about Cinna also I read a theory once that Prim was actually Peeta's half sister (based on her blonde hair and also Peeta's dad visiting Katniss before she leaves for the first game)
I don't know about that, but I do think Lucy Gray is Katniss's grandmother. The math definitely adds up.
I do believe Snow's final words to Katniss to be sincere. A humble admittance of defeat. An epiphany that he'd like to share with a true warrior of hope and liberator. He knows that Katniss will always do the right thing and in a way is touched and has a change of heart. If he wanted to be malicious, he wouldn't share this realization of Coin being a true master of puppets; instead he would allow Coin to perpetuate the games and let Katniss see that everything she has done was for nothing, "so wasteful, so unnecessary", as Snow said about the parachute bombs.
I relate that moment to Star Wars: Return of the Jedi when Darth Vader finally realizes that The Emperor has manipulated him and is the true enemy, so instead of letting the dark side triumph, he returns to the light (redeems himself) before his death and destroys Darth Sidius.
Snow's maniacal last laugh was joy, astonishment, hope, and perhaps a feeling of redemption. That Katniss truly has given birth and hope to a brave new world in a way that he could not. He once was a good person that came from struggle and poverty and wanted to make things better with his friend Sejanus. He gave up hope back then and turned to "the dark side" when he decided the only way to change things was to usurp power, (like Coin). Perfect name for her character as she truly is just the other side of the same coin as Snow. Flipping Panem over where the mob gets to rule over the capital and get revenge.
Fan theories are fun, but what's wrong with coincidences? Coincidences happen every day. Nothing being a coincidence is more unlikely than a few coincidences helping the story along imo. Katniss ending up in the Hunger Games was random (having your name in once makes it unlikely, not impossible), but all the "players" were more than ready to seize every potentially useful piece on the board
Now I want a what if Gale was sent into the Arena or if Katniss never volunteered
Or if Gale volunteered, which she and he made the deal to not because whever didn't get chosen was supposed to care for the other's family with hunting and foraging.
I will say, the first read through the books I thought Snow was the baddie right to the end.. and when I read the words of her killing Coin, I realized I had missed so much, I didn't need to reread to catch what I had missed because I knew the author was telling me everything right up until that last arrow was an orchestrated chess match and the only person worse then Snow.. was Coin
I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU GUYS MADE A HUNGER GAMES VIDEO
I didn't want to believe it at first due to all the circumstantial evidence, but it was the absence of the amount of bombers used when the hospital was bombed in District 8. Two bombers isn't the Capital's style...The Capital would've sent a full squadron to carpet bomb the entire area and make it a spectacle, but for a district that needed to save resources using two bombers fulfills the operational requirement without wasting precious ammunition. The bombers were sent from District 13.
Prims reaping not being random goes against the WHOLE point of the hungers.
The POINT was that anyone could get in and it wasn't fair.
Coin didn't even WANT katniss. It's very clearly expressed in the movies and the books that katniss is difficult and not likeable. No one knew anything about prim and katniss. Coin did not seek out katniss.
This theory defeats the purpose of the story and what makes katniss's character complex: she's a revolutionary symbol that she never wanted to be, and the revolution never wanted HER.
She was even looking at roses when she voted yes.
You know now I'm wondering if Lucy Gray and Alma Coin are the same person. It would actually make sense. I also think that Katniss might be related to the Covey. I also think that Maude Ivory is Katniss grandmother since they always talk about her fathers singing voice and she can remember a song after only hearing it once and the hanging tree was banned almost instantly and somehow Katniss's father knew it.
I agree with almost all of this. The only thing that doesn't fit is that Snow is about thirty years older than Coin. But in keeping with the parent and child motif, Coin is an ideal age to be Lucy Gray's daughter.
I haven’t paid the math budget on this one, but what if she was Lucy AND Snow’s daughter?
@@phoebegilliland8897 I thought this was assumed already since the book implied Coin was the daughter of Lucy Grey?...Because Lucy married a guy who's last name was Coin.
A very minor line, but I couldn't help but notice how you posit that the mayor of 12 was a rebel - thinking about this, knowing the story of Madge's mockingjay*, I really want it to be true, and it lends itself even more to the theory that it was all planned.
*How that pin was her aunt's district token from when she was reaped and died in the 50th hunger games. That along with your theory on that pin having special meaning bc of Lucy Gray and Snow's aversion to mockingjays, I'd say there's even a possibility that Maysilee Donner (Madge's aunt) might've even been the rebels' first attempt at creating The Mockingjay (in the context of the second quarter quell). She died, they failed, and it set their plans back years, but it could have succeeded in bringing in powerful allies, namely the Donner/Undersee family, and Haymitch, the actual winner of those games. The one they hadn't bet on, the unpredictable one, who would help them spot the tribute they should bet on next time.
I was thinking the same
Theory about bombing in District 8 is interesting and definitely possible. But i gotta point out that it's not unlikely for Boggs to get alert before 8 did. Planes are better detected from sky, like in hovercraft used by 13 to come to Dist 8. This is true especially when planes are flying low near the surface. That's why Air Force have Airborne Early Warning system.
This might just be the best SCB video yet. It’s long and entertaining. I can watch it on loop and not use interest. I’ve watched dozens of times back to back. It’s engaging enough to keep me listening but calm enough to fall asleep too. I just can’t stop enjoying this one.