Joel is an amazing character because he's exactly what a survivor in an apocalypse would become. He's selfish, brutal, cold, and intelligent, and most of all, puts survival over everything else , which is why him growing to care about Ellie is so heartwarming
I'd argue that he is ONLY surviving though. He seems to exist on an almost day to day set up with very little plans apart from survival and his poor trust and social skills, while good at keeping himself alive, do not endear him into a community. A good alternative example to this is his brother Tommy who also experienced very similar experiences during the apocalypse. However Tommy was still able to trust and connect with others, allowing him to join his community and find friends and partners.
@@IrishWarrior00 Tommy didn't lose a child, they are not the same. Tommy can't experience that pain of losing someone who means the world to Joel. Joel most likely also lost his wife, but we don't know for sure.
It doesn’t excuse him from doing evil things, bypassing the innocent, and lieing to Eli’s face. But I agree that most parents in his situation, would have probably turned out like him. Though most is not all.
and the fact that she didnt kill the fucker who killed joel just makes everyone so absolutely infuriated and shit on last of us 2 like its a public latrine.
Ut actually shouldn't be cause like u said hes selfish. He killed 1ve the last surgeons living in the apocalypse & took aways Ellies choice which was to die, even it was a small chance to save others from the fate so many are suffering & as ahe got older she felt guilty over his choice to take away her choice because she may have made a difference. I understand Joel but that dont make his actions right.
From the moment Ellie asked how Joel knew that they were being ambushed and he said “I’ve been on both sides” I knew exactly what kind of person Joel was.
@@Stoney_Bologney_ that’s not the point. The point is he took away her autonomy by making the decision for her. If I made the same decision it be equally as selfish.
@@khaoslight3697 I would of did the same if I was in Joel shoes. I'm not gonna let them kill a 14 year old girl for a cure that may or may not would of worked.
Joel was a human being. Humans aren't easily labeled as wholly good or wholly evil. You can't even "put yourself in their shoes" because the world they live in is so terrible we cannot truly imagine what it would be like.
Even God labels humans as evil beings and letting the world die and with loved ones of their own just because some chick reminds you of your daughter at your side and killing other's loved ones like Abby's father for trying to save the world? you're just as much as a selfish monster as Joel was
It baffles me how everyone forgets how the fireflies updated Joel and lack of updating Ellie on the procedure. They probably couldve stopped Joels rampage of they were honest and allowed Ellie to make a decision and possible goodbyes to eachother. But nope, they poked a very brutal bear
The whole argument of “Joel took away her agency” is dumb. Her agency was already taken away by the Fireflies. If anything, Joel took agency from the Fireflies. People have only jumped on this bandwagon because the second game said Ellie would’ve wanted to risk it for the vaccine. But by the end of that game, being a mother at that point, I wonder if she felt differently.
You got my point! And before the mission (of delivering Ellie across the country), Marlene should have told Joel and Ellie about the attempted making of a cure would kill Ellie! Partially Marlene's fault and I suspect Marlene intend to keep it from Ellie.
@@branpod This! The fireflies stole all of Ellie's agency and put Joel in an impossible position, Let his surrogate daughter be murdered (and it is murder seeing as Ellie was not asked) for the potential good of the world or save his daughter from killers pretending to be saints and potentially damn us all. The moral mistake he makes is that whilst the fireflies stole all of Ellie's agency, by lying he refuses to give that agency back. He hasn't given Ellie control of her life, just taken it from the fireflies and given it to himself. People latching on to Ellie's statements around being willing in game 2 miss the fact that by that point its purely hypothetical. Its probably very east to say you'd take a bullet for the good of the world...Its a lot harder to make that call when the gun is actually in your face (but again this is also part of Joel's moral failure. He has the chance to tell her when the choice can still be made,and doesn't..... by the time she finds out its all too late and everybody looses)
This point really bothers me, because the Fireflies easily could have waited for Ellie to wake up after almost drowning, and then explain the situation to her and Joel. Why were they so impatient? They needlessly tried to take her agency away. Nothing bad was going to happen to Ellie if they had just waited another day or two. So because of that, I think they're more to blame for what happened.
@@andrewcarroll3722 i think that their impatience has to stem from the fact that they know Ellie is immune and see her the cure, they don’t want to wait much longer to be able to save themselves and others.
One thing I noted in the game is that the Fireflies didn't even know if the surgery would've worked; there are lore sprinkles throughout the game that heavily sugest that the cration of a cure might not be even possible. I think that the Fireflies were going to kill Ellie for nothing. There's also the fact that in the second game, Abby's dad was very, VERY hesitant to perform the surgery. Something tells me that Joel made the right choice. But... Joel should've told her... gah damn it still hits hard
Considering how ridiculously high the stakes were I do understand their actions. Yeah the chance of a cure is implied to to be very slim, but there was still a chance, a hope. To sacrifice one life for even the slightest possibility of saving the entire human race from slow, painful death, or worse. It was clearly a sacrifice they were willing to make and I can't say I really blame them for that. Yeah they probably should have told Ellie but they couldn't really afford to let her go and were probably trying to spare her the reality of the situation, she would just go asleep thinking she's helping save millions of lives and simply never wake up. Maybe that's a mercy, given the messed up situation?
I mean, considering Joel's character I think he would have done the exact same thing even if the it was 100% definite that a successful vaccine was able to be made. Joel does not care about "humanity" and demonstrates this throughout the game. He cares about those close to him and only them. But I imagine Naughty Dog wanted to keep it a bit more ambiguous than that so kept it as a final long shot.
@@sovereign9645 there was many other attempts at doing the same exact surgery they did to ellie and they never worked. Iggnoring this and the fact that a vaccine for a fungi cannot exist in the real world we live in, even if they had the cure, there would still be problems. People forget that humans dont work like marvel movies. It's not like a key is unlcoked and the purple bad smoke dissapearss from the world and flowers start to grow again. The production of the cure wouldd be ddifficult, it would have to be contained and mass produced for a long time and then the problem of having limited sources or just having the cure occurs. People will either not believe the cure is real, or attack the fireflies in attempt to murder them and steal the cure for themselves. The writers and the players focus too much on the cure here (especially the script in tlou 2) and they dont think about the CHOICE. The dilemma to me here is, Ellie got blocked from havingg her own choice and what she wouldd like to do with her life. It doesnt matter if the cure wouldd exist and if it ddid, would it help the world. Even if the iea of a vaccine is unrealistic, it's still her choice to do it.... but she couldnt choose for herself.
and fireflies might not be good guys like they said they were hated by city guard so all they can effort are smugglers never any proff or clue they saved or help anyone and when Jole show a bit of sign he want Ellie back, fireflies point a gun at him and drag him out EDIT: AND they didn't even pay Joel for finish the job
lmao, I remember watching a video, maybe from gametheorists, that suggested that creating a vaccine for this fungal virus would have been a literal impossibility. If you wanna check it out: ua-cam.com/video/S5ulX06McSY/v-deo.html
Regarding Joel getting upset at Henry, its not he same as when Joel didn't pick up that family. Joel didn't know that family, but he knew Henry enough to help each other, and he has the right to be upset when that person he knows betrays him.
Personally, I don’t know if that checks out. Sure, Joel didn’t know that family, but he didn’t have any kind of evidence or gut feeling that they were a threat. He knew they were innocent, but just didn’t care. Friend or a new person, you know that individual or family is not a danger to you.
@@afrinaut3094 He'd already seen what happens to people that are infected. It wasn't worth the risk to pick them up. He didn't know them at all. Henry knew Joel and Ellie and knew they weren't infected. I don't really blame him for running either. He had his brother to look out for and there was literally nothing he could do to help Joel up in the little time that they had.
Both Henry and Joel may have knew each other but they were not necessarily family or as close as family, they were helping each other because they both agreed it was the best chance of getting out of the city. Henry leaving Joel and Ellie behind to save himself and Sam is still relatively along the same lines that Joel has done because Sam is his only actual family left and his safety was his utmost priority. I agree they are not the exact same thing but I feel that Henry had every right to leave him behind just as much as Joel had every right to leave the family behind and Joel getting mad at Henry still shows a certain level of hypocrisy and irony.
@@huntersauls3562 I think the problem in that is that Henry didn't go off with his brother and stay that way. They linked up back with Joel again. It seems that he wanted to keep travelling with them AFTER he left Joel to die. Joel now knows that Henry is willing to betray him for sure. There's no reason for Joel to take kindly to that. Joel reacted with violence but that's generally how he responds to threats. He is a broken man with trust issues already. Betraying him will not make him more rational and self reflective, it will make him angry and defensive. Expecting sudden noble traits from a broken man who has never indicated such traits is kind of asking for disappointment.
I think it gets messer when you consider Gerry the doctor that was going to cut open Ellie, was asked a serious question by Marlene if he would so gung-ho if it was his daughter on the table and Gerry Hesitated and basically give no answer to her. He wouldn’t sacrifice his daughter for humanity but has no issue doing to a stranger which is a surprisely huge lack of empathy for a supposed “good” guy. This low key makes Joel justified in what he did to him and the fireflies.
Honestly, if anything, this makes Abby's revenge more unjustified. Since she knew her dad didn't want to perform the procedure because he understood the fear of losing a child as well as the basic morality of operating on someone without concent. It makes Abby's brutal revenge seem very odd since she should be able to epicenter together that her dad may have done the same thing for her if the roles were reversed. Also not to mention that Joel and Tommy saved her life.
Well yeah it's human nature to protect their own tribe while letting other die. Wether that tribe is family, race, country, politics, or whatever, we're all tribalistic
Joel is the most realistic character ever. Anyone can sit back and and be all morally righteous. Joel lying to her isn’t a big deal. He’s not going to let her die like his daughter did.
Most realistic character is the random dude getting bitten in the prolog, thats what most of us would be, and if anyone would make it for 20 years in such a gruesome world, he would probably develop a fitting mindset, given the circumstances, i think Joel is an absolute angel.
This dudes video is like that tiktok sound “i can justify racism but X is where I draw the line” 😂 he can justify the murder but not the lie. Get a grip, bruh
Joel was a realistic character who acted in the best way to help his family. In real life his actions are the best option fo keep them safe he’s not a clean hero but he’s more relatable than any other heroic character.
The question of whether or not Joel was a good person or not is kind of missing the point, I think. Joel did bad things; not just killing people, and not just killing people who didn't deserve it. But EVERYBODY in the game does horrible things. Even the fireflies, like you said, would have killed Ellie for possibly nothing. Even Ellie kills people in the game. The world burned down; surviving means doing terrible things whether you mean to or not. I think the real question that needs to be asked, the question that asking whether or not Joel is justified or whether he's a good person is dancing around is...why is he doing the things he does? You brought up the group of cannibals and David, but there is a distinct and stark difference in motive between David and Joel. David is trying to rebuild the past. Joel is trying to build a future. Maybe not for himself, but at least for Ellie. She doesn't just represent his family; she represents the future of humanity. At least to Joel. And I think there's a really important question that needs to be asked; is rebuilding the past something worthwhile? Is it even something reasonable to expect? Do people really think that they can roll back the clock twenty years and go back to the way things were? The fireflies seem to think they can, but it needs to be said outright; the fireflies are wrong. The world burned down twenty years ago. There are only ashes left. And that's the real stress in Joel's actions. He's a bad dude. He does terrible things. He kills innocent people. He kills doctors. But what he is doing, while he is doing all that, is moving forward. Moving towards the future. Joel was stuck in place for twenty years, and now with Ellie, he can see a light at the end of the tunnel. Does that make what he does justified? Are they good choices? Hell no. But you can't make good choices all the time. Sometimes you have to make the best bad choice that you can. I'm not slagging the video off, by the way. This is a good analysis. Thumbs up.
While your analysis is spot on and the video essay is amazing you ignored one thing the video said it right: Was it his choice though? Yes, maybe the past was bad. Maybe you are completely right, it is bad, but was it his choice or Ellie's? No, it should have been hers. And this is why hers and his future will actually just be a new version of the past, a bad one. Because we as humans do not accept the liberty of others to decide their life. Joel was selfish in his love and just started a new future that is mirrored in the same mistakes of the past. There is no hope for humankind in Joel's decision and not because Ellie didn't sacrifice, but because morally people will never improve. What a great man and dad would have done would be to explain her what was at stake and let her decide. Yes, you could try to explain to her that it most definitely not worth it, but in the end accept her decision.
I compare The Last of Us story to David Simon's The Wire. Good and bad is all relative. If you're on the team with the drug dealers, then drug dealers are the good guys, but if you're the cops or an opposing drug gang, then those same drug dealers are the bad guys. There is no good or bad, just victims of circumstance.
I think you're wrong, I think rebuilding the past or at least attempting to get it to something close is a worthy goal in that world, it may have burned down 20 years ago but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying to rebuild, 1st time playing the game as I reached the end was the 1st major disconnect with Joel as far as the story goes, I understand the motives but not agree with them, and after then discussing it with my friend while he disagreed with me on it I said if there was ever a sequel it would come back to bite Jole back
@@dream6562 Maybe you're not a father but I am and I would of done the same as him. I think this game hits harder if you have kids especially a daughter. You will burn the world down if it means saving your child.
Joel is a perfect example of humanity. As we age we learn more about ourselves everyday. I'm in my mid 30s and I still can't figure out the man looking back at me in the mirror. I'd like to think if the apocalypse happened if be alot like Joel
There is a school of thought within psychology that we don’t ever truly know ourselves - most of our ideas about our character are ad hoc interpretations of our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Usually those interpretations are skewed by self-serving biases.
It's not cold blood to murder someone if you murder someone in the heat of passion. They didn't give her a choice, they lied to her, he might have been selfish, but it wasn't premeditated, he didn't plan out the murder, he was furious, and he decided I will kill you for that which I love. His blood was very much hot at that point.
While I understand the lost of control, due to anger, and him trying to protect his surrogate daughter, does that justify the killing of the scientist ? Does that justify him dooming humans , by refusing tgen a chance for a cure ? I honestly don't think so. It's understandable , not forgivable imo
@@mozermzr3186 Well, that’s the thing. You would give your life to protect them. That’s almost the opposite of giving one of their lives to protect other people. Joel would have given his life to protect his family as well.
He is a damaged human being who never fully recovered from probably most traumatic situation a parent could go through. He was thrown into this new world broken and it change him into a selfish, cold, vicious animal who would do anything to survive. Then this young girl is thrown into his care and he is forced to remember what it was like to care and look after someone like Sarah to give his life to protect her and he learned to love her like his daughter. Quote by Joel - “ I struggle for a long time with surviving, but no matter what you keep finding something to fight for.” He found that something to fight for - Ellie and he would’ve done anything to protect her and to not feel that lost he felt 20 years ago. He’s not a monster, he’s a father a survivor he was out for two to three ppl only himself, Tommy and Ellie. He’s a survivor and did what he thought he should’ve done no matter what Ellie thought. He loved her and he wasn’t going to lose for too like Sarah.
Before Eli he was murdering for selfish reasons, with eli his murdering people for selfish reasons. He does not care about eli, he cares about how eli makes him feel, and decided "He" can't live without her, whether she likes it or not.
The thing is she’s not Sarah. Let’s get that out the way fast lol. Ellie isn’t his daughter, Joel took his emotions that’s been built up for 20 years onto her. It doesn’t excuse killing a room full of doctors, the fire flies and Marlene for the sake of a girl who didn’t need his saving.
@@1kbmahan you ever played the rpg game Lisa: the painful? That game expresses the notion of "a second chance for a failed broken man" The protagonist and joel are the same at the end but the peotagonist of this game lets us see his past and hoe and why he tuened that way. You cant really label these people on one side of the specteum, they are complicated. Human characters.
I never hesitated for a second during the final moments in the hospital. I made sure not to leave a single soul behind, because I know that's what Joel would do. There are parents out there who will lie, cheat, steal, and kill to protect their children, and I really felt that energy coming from Joel. What a masterfully personified character.
This is a video game. But it takes away from Ellie wanted she’s the one who’s immune not Joel this isn’t modern day this is a post apocalyptic nightmare. She wanted her immunity to mean something. It doesn’t excuse killing a whole building full of doctors to take one girl. It’s borderline insanity and fucked up. Joel isn’t her biological dad they simply are on a mission together.
@@1kbmahan The relationship between parent and child doesn't always have to do with biology. Adoption is a thing, just as an example. And I agree that it's messed up and inexcusable! What Joel did was evil and selfish! And well written!
@@1kbmahan to understand Joel's morality or decisions however bad or good they are, ask yourself this question : If you were to bond with a girl who straight up reminds you of your late daughter, you got to share stories, hardships, nights, jokes, walks and food together, and overnight you come to realize that she's been taken for surgery where the chances of extracting a working cure are slim, would you willingly let go of her despite her not being your biological daughter? I can bet both of my kidneys that you won't ever let her sacrifice herself despite that being the idealistic choice. If you answer with the opposite, I'll just say it's easy to respond in such since you've never been put in a similar situation.
@@1kbmahan you're lost on the full concept of why he did it sure you know why he did but you don't feel why he did and that's why he's a masterfully written character because you can have two completely different opinions of him and they both are correct. But i do have to add you mention that they live in a post apocalyptic nightmare but then compare his actions to our functioning societies morality?
@@1kbmahan I know for a fact I would have done the same thing. Yes, it's selfish and controlling. But I wouldn't give a shit about that if I were in Joel's shoes. I'd be past justification or any considerations of good and evil.
It’s honestly very weird to me that you believe a fourteen year old could ever exercise educated consent on literal martyrdom. A parents responsibility is to protect their child, and their own ego plays little factor in many decisions. Especially when they are only just developing anything resembling long term planning.
Exactly. When people say this, I always ask them: "If Ellie had agreed to David's plan, would Joel be wrong to stop it?" The response is always the same, "David's plan was unrealistic (blah, blah, blah)," but I point out that I didn't ask what they thought of David's plan, I only asked if Ellie agreed to the plan. They usually don't answer after that.
David’s actions aren’t really comparable to Joel’s. When Joel kills to protect Ellie it’s because her life is in imminent danger. David and his group are not. They don’t need to eat people to survive and he certainly doesn’t need to SA her. Lots of people survive without resorting to cannibalism and SA.
Joel is an amazing character. Had a tragic sad life. Lost his wife from unknown causes leaving him to take care of their daughter. Lost her daughter in horrible brutal way. Spent 20 years surviving in a "survival of the fittest" world after the outbreak. Found a tiny glimpse of happiness with Ellie (1 year, approximately). Lost Ellie due to his decisions. Was blamed for the everyone dying from the infection after Salt Lake. Was brutally murdered helping some kids. He lived 25 after the outbreak,crossing the country, not just hiding. He is the true definition of a survivor in a post apocalyptic world.
I disagree with the Henry point Joel didn’t betray those people at the beginning he didn’t know them but Henry was someone he put his trust in and left him for dead first time he got.
The great thing about Joel as a character is that he was neither a monster or a hero. He was a morally ambiguous character in the best way possible, and he did what many folks in his position would have done... survive. Sure, he did many things that many people in our standard society would deem horrific, but so would anyone in the post-apocalyptic environment he lived in. He lived in a time where the world was overrun by infected fungus zombies, so he had no choice but to adapt and "get with the times", so to speak. And also, there was likely no chance of a cure for the cordyceps even if the Fireflies succeeded with operating on Ellie. This is a mutated mushroom we're talking about here, not a typical virus or a disease. On top of that, let's be honest, humanity as it is shown in The Last of Us probably doesn't deserve to thrive on anyways, regardless of whether or not there were still good and decent people alive. I mean, pretty much everyone on Earth is either a remorseless bandit or an infected humanoid with no sense of a conscience left. Anyway, my point is, Joel is a reflection of the world he lived in. He's not a bad person in the traditional sense, but he's not morally righteous either. He did what he did because he was a human being who acted on what he thought was right specifically for him. That's what makes him a fascinating character.
He's better than most would turn out in such an apocalypse. Especially considering so many became cannibals, rapists etc. He cared about Ellie and made a choice a lot of people may make for a loved one.
Definitely not a monster when you take into account he’s in a post apocalyptic world where literally everyone is trying their best to survive any means necessary
Letting the world die and with loved ones of their own just because some chick reminds you of your daughter at your side and killing other's loved ones like Abby's father for trying to save the world? you're just as much as a selfish monster as Joel was
@@favinjae6255 Yeah r a cure that has at best 1% chance of actually working and it not like those were guys were innocent either. We don't know everything they done only that bunch of them are willing to kill a kid for a shot in dark without proper testing or alternatives besides killing her. Even if they did find a cure (Which in likelihood they wouldn't) do you really think they just selfless save the world. Last of Us has shown us how cruel human nature is, who says they wouldn't abuse the cure or hold it off from others in end and how would they even be able to with the limited resources there are.
While brutal, I don't think Joel's death was unexpected. The Last of Us Part 2 is very unambiguously about how violence begets violence. After an entire game of enacting humilating brutal deaths to others, of course, that was gonna come back around. Of course, the violent man would meet a violent end.
I think the fact that he died was completely fine, but the way it was executed, barley two hours into the game, and no justification for Abby's pov (until it's too late), was not.
@@russian_knight I think the worse travesty in the pacing of LOU2 is that if they had intermixed the stories instead of doing it like they did, the game would’ve been easier to parse, and you don’t have to reset gameplay-wise halfway through the game which is the real sin
@@VoltaVoid The easy story solution would have been to just have the lie come out, have Ellie run away, run into Abby, have them pal around with one another to build character with Joel in hot pursuit to try and fix things. Then when he finally does catch up, have the big reveal that he and Abby have that history together, have the death scene and all the guilt that comes with Ellie inadvertently getting her dad killed, then going on the revenge spree. Bingo, bango, bongo, logical and coherent plot that doesn't have one of the main characters hated from the start and trying to patch it up later.
The problem is that while Joel did many bad things, the reason he was killed was not one of them Killing a group of terrorists that just stole all of his things to stop them from killing an innocent girl is not a bad thing
Except one of those "terrorists" was a relatively innocent (I understand he was still going to perform the surgery but of all the people there he understood the chances of success) doctor with a daughter that possessed one hell of an ax to grind from then on.
I think the problem that both Joel and the fireflies had is that neither of them gave Ellie a choice in the matter. Ellie should had been the one who got to choose but the fireflies decided to disregard her opinion and Joel lied to her about it until he was forced to be honest. Both I wouldn’t say either of them were bad. The fireflies goal was to cure the world of the fungi that cause their society to collapse would be the first step in restoring the world and Joel was a man traumatized by the death of his daughter and couldn’t go through it again and was willing to condemn humanity to the infected to keep Ellie from dying. Both side were selfish in this situation
@@daryno9048 The difference is Joel was reactionary. The Fireflies actively decided to kill a child without anyone’s consent for a tiny chance at a vaccine working. Joel acts to prevent a killing that was never agreed upon. You can say he took away her agency in that situation, but she really didn’t have it to begin with because the Fireflies had already taken it. This shift in the mindset of the fans has only taken place because the second game told us that Ellie would have wanted to risk it for the vaccine. But the characters in the first game did not have that information, can we really hold someone accountable to making a reasonable decision contrary to it?
These questions about Joel’s morality are extremely complex. Even though as players of the game we grow attached to Joel, he is flawed with selfishness because of love as stated in the video. I think this trait is more prominent as the game progresses mainly because what he lost almost 20 years, he has found once again in Ellie. He lost the thing he loved the most, his daughter Sarah resulting in him becoming numb to emotions and specifically love. Ellie brings back these feelings and as we see he does anything to not to lose that again, even lie to her.
I love these video essays, I’m glad that you’re looking into games other than God of War. I can’t wait to see what else you’ll put out in the future!!!
Here’s the thing while we the players see that he does have a heart. The other enemy characters see him as a monster who killed the only chance at a cure. Abby players might hate but from her perspective Joel is a killer. So technically Yes but also No.
Crazy it will be 10 years, this June, since this game released. I never played it, never got the hang of a console, but I did watch several playthroughs back then. Just found your channel a couple days ago, and glad I did. Your essays are well thought out and discussed.
It wasn’t the same context, they’re literally a random family on the road comparing that to Henry who abandoned them after spending a significant amount of time with Joel & Ellie and understanding each other’s struggles & goals
I've had this opinion for years and I'm glad to see people (after all the Hell died down) are coming around and understanding that a "bad person" isn't necessarily "the bad guy", nor is "justifiable" the same as "right". Joel, to himself, to others, to Ellie, is a hero. To the Fireflies, to Abby, he's a villain. It's perfectly ok to hold these two viewpoints, appreciate the nuance, understand the self-interest, and still like a character. Sometimes (especially in a zombie outbreak), there are no good people and bad people; there's just people.
Very true. That's what makes the TLOU universe soooo compelling. The characters (and the world itself) feel so REAL, and the ending of the first game made you really think.
Joel is the definition of a Human in the apocalypse he’s not a hero or a villain in a sense he’s a anti hero. He does what he wants to do and goes by his own moral code which sometimes lines up with everyone and sometimes doesn’t. Good and evil, right and wrong that’s all decided by the winners or in this case the survivors and he’s a survivor. But along the way he opens up to becoming more moral just in a sense thanks to el he’s truly a great written character.
I think Joel's reasons were sound as a father figure, but to any other person that isn't related to him in some way, his decisions at the end of 1 are monstrous regardless of the success chance of the surgery or vaccine. It still bugs me how shocked people were they would kill him off so quickly in 2, but like... No shit someone wanted revenge for that.
@@sacredbeastzenon It's fair, I disagree but he goes out in a really rough way. A lot of stars aligned (Deus ex machina really) for him to be trapped in Abby's camp, but the way she killed him is not surprising. Living with that hate for years, she had the opportunity to kill him however she liked, and he got it a lot worse than a scalpel to the throat (or a flamethrower)
we knew he was going to die but the way he died without giving a fight was so not like joel they destroy his character also the story of the sequel is pretty bad i like what moist said about the sequel "the story itself isn't that bad but they tell it wrong , we shoul have play with abby from the start to empathize with her and later the joel flashbacks and then comes the rest of the game"
my issue LOU2 isn't that they killed Joel, its that they forced us to play the character that killed him .We have no relationship with Abby and it doesn't make sense to force players to play Abby. Abby had her reason for what she did, but those who loved Joel and Ellie didn't really care to understand where Abby is coming from. Its like making players play as Scar in Lion king, to understand his reason for killing Mufasa, we really don't care.
Lying seems so harmless from your own perspective. It isn't until you see the damage it does to the people you love and how it affects their lives and reality that it starts to chip away at this image you have of yourself
He's human. He's the person taking care of himself and standing up for the ones he loves, no matter what. He's really what we wish we were. Not a perfect person, but a REAL one.
Letting the world die and with loved ones of their own just because some chick reminds you of your daughter at your side and killing other's loved ones like Abby's father for trying to save the world? you're just as much as a selfish monster as Joel was
@@favinjae6255 maybe I am, but if you truly loved someone and they were about to be killed, you might surprise yourself at what you'd do. "We don't trade lives"- Captain America
@@favinjae6255 The world was already dead. The fireflies would have never shared the cure even if it was successful. Joel did the right thing, you are looking at it as black and white just like the 2nd game tried to dumb it down to
@@favinjae6255 Joel was portrayed as a real person. Thats what people cant grasp, the game does not have a good or bad guy. You come to understand Joel really is just a POS. But in a world like that and after his familys death, that's probably how you would end up. The fireflies on the other hand dont let either Joel or Ellie know that the procedure will kill her and that they dont even know if it will work. But they are doing that because they are desperate to find a cure. Neither side is good. Neither side is bad. They are just people that have adjusted to there environment. Joel at the beginning of the game probably would have given up Ellie. By the end, Ellie is his daughter and to just assume that a person would give up there kid like that is funny. Its a selfish act to some degree, but thats what makes this feel real. He isnt some noble character.
@@conner1260 No the world was not already dead also the fireflies would have shared the cure lmao , the fireflies not sharing the cure doesn't make any since when you look at it logically and Joel is the reason Ellie became a monster as well which is why he had to die and like they said he had it coming to him
I looked at it as Joel not a monster. Imagine something horrible happened to you that defined the rest of your life. You lived with it for years and years and it slowly eating away at you. Then suddenly you see yourself getting a second chance. A chance to be happy again and let go of that past or atleast be a peace with it. Then someone comes to you, threatening to cause that same exact scenario that define your entire life. Would you suddenly sit by? I know what I would do. The whole hospital is getting clapped if need be. Lying to her also saved her because even if she went back, he killed the asshole doctor anyway. They would have probably killed her on a whim or went after Joel through her putting all of Jackson at risk. Side note: The fireflies were asshole terrorists anyway. Even if they got a cure, they aren't the moral type to do anything good with it except extort and rule with it. They were ass backwards and braindead the entire game.
I just recently stumbled across this channel because of the God of War Ragnarok videos (which were really good). And I haven't even played the last of us or even watched it on youtube but this videos analyzing the psychology of the characters are awesome. I just subscribed! Please keep them coming!
I will never play the last of us 2 I just hate the idea that “revenge is bad” in a world where the apocalypse happened. Like if anything they should’ve at least given us the taste of victory killing Abbey, but instead Ellie decided she’s a completely different character
Your videos are so well done and incredible. I do think there could be an analysis done on characters Joel and Kratos that highlights their similarities. But also shows their differences and why audiences care for these characters.
Honestly, I wouldn't say he's a monster. Sure he's done a lot of killing, but in the apocalypse, it's about survival, and whether you like it or not, sometimes you HAVE to kill to save your own skin, or save someone else. Joel didn't want to lose his second chance of having a daughter, and Ellie would have been perfect to fill the hole that he had for so many years. While he did murder a lot of firefly members, they honestly weren't doing him any good by not even letting him see Ellie, nor giving Ellie any choice to if she wanted to be sacrificed or not. The Firefly clan were stupid to think that sacrificing Ellie would be a smart idea, because she's the only known person to be immune. Personally, I would have done more research to see why she's immune, instead of sacrificing her. Besides, it's scientifically impossible to make a vaccine from a fungi. And yes, Joel at one point, said he was on "both sides", as in he was once a bandit and a normal survivor. So I'm sure he's done plenty of bad things, but that was a while ago. Joel has shown that he's capable of change, and is willing to do whatever it takes to protect Ellie. Even if it means, taking away the "possible but highly unlikely" chance of making a vaccine. So is Joel a monster? No Is he perfect? No Is he decent? Yes Could he have been worse? Absolutely
I see it differently, I think saving Ellie was the first unselfish thing he had done in a long time. The real question is survival justifiable at any cost? And for Joel when it came down to it, the answer was no. All the moral compromises he had made for the sake of survival finally took it's toll and when it came down to it, he put someone else's survival over his.
Good points you made, unfortunately we don't know the extreme lengths Joel did to survive only small comments from his brother and having his daughter killed by people who were meant to protect them propably just steeled him even more to trust nobody let alone humanity especially as a single parent because somtimes the only thing that keeps you going after truma like he experienced is the people really close to you an nobody else. I think with Joel now is, if your not a friend then you are a potential threat until proven otherwise. Maybe Naughty dog should make a game based on the life Joel had after his daughters passing up until The last of us part 1 ?😞
The Chronicles Of Joel ? ! The Book Of Joel ? ! The Survival Of Joel ? ! Take your pick, I really like your idea ! Now if only Naughty Dog could get on the right page, then we'd have an amazing prequel to TLOU.
"He lies to her because he is terrified of her leaving him." There's also that she wants to sacrifice her life to a shitty group of outsiders. You don't let teenagers make suicidal decisions if you can help it.
Joel is ultimately a good character... because even though he is in fact a shitty person in General, he's still a good father and someone who truly cares about his family....that makes him human nothing more and nothing less.
Joel was human, which is something fans forget when they look at his final moments. In that world, every surviving human becomes a monster at some point.
All i know is that pure hearted people would have died off long ago in these zombie outbreaks. In order to survive, sacrifices and certain morals will have to go.
I don't think what Henry did to Joel can be fully compared to what Joel did cuz Joel wasn't with that other group he refused to help. Henry and his little bro was with Joel and Ellie for a while and fully sticking together until that time. What Henry was also seeing (probably)is that at least Ellie is free to escape. Ellie chose to jump back down and stay with Joel
thank you for the post, i do feel you missed the very last piece at the end where joel shows he is willing to protect the people he cares about even from themselves. joel and ellies journey rhyme each other in the sense that joel and his daughter were *both* shot at, but only she dies. he clearly struggles with survivors guilt and that manifests itself as incredibly violent outbursts when his family is threatened. the same is true with ellie, except in her it manifests itself as poetically-suicidal. shes already faced certain death when she first got infected, and she almost expects to die at any moment. you can see this when henry ditches joel, ellie jumps down knowing full well this might be the place where they die, and that at least theyll die together. i think in the end, joel is trying to protect her from the toxic survivors guilt he went through. you can also see evidence of this when tommy at the dam says that surviving with joel wasnt worth it and that he still has nightmare about it, which triggers joel's mr-hyde side to glimmer. joel protects his loved ones even when they dont want it, however i dont know if thats a redeeming quality or not. i think theres also room to argue that joel is essentially preventing ellie from suicide. a suicidal-sacrifice, is still suicide, but thats a whole other can of worms. for the record, i agree with everything you said about joel, this poor nerds only skill is killing, i dont have an answer to whether hes a good person or not, since you dont get to see what outcomes there could be when morality is introduced into the game because of the linear story, thanks again
The concept of good and evil is based on the environment you are in, the world of tlou is an environment where survival is prioritized over decency. There is hierarchy of needs that needs to be fulfilled before we think about morality.
Those two comparisons are not exactly the same. The people alongside the road were complete strangers. But Joel and Ellie established a cooperative relationship with Henry and Sam, so its considered more of a betrayal. To better explain my reasoning There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person tied on the other track. Most people choose the utilitarian route and pull the lever. But if you change the scenario and only make it possible to save those five people by directly pushing that one person onto the tracks. Many people suddenly hesitate to make this decision, despite the outcome being the same. One persons dies and five people are saved. The point is Joels decision to keep driving past the family of strangers was an impersonal act of selfishness. But Henry and Sams "betrayal" was personal.
3xactly. Like you already have the same mission and trust towards Sam and Henry and they chose to abandon you . The people on road don't know them. I will leave them alone .
Joel obviously saved Ellie for personal reasons. However, the Fireflies doctor(Jerry) was only a biologist, a fact you find out from a Sniper's note in the East Colorado University. He's only confirmed to have a bachelor's degree in that field from Northern Utah Medical College. Now people may argue with textbooks, notes and proper equipment, he could have made a vaccine. Could~Can Weak~Strong Brain biopsy is a procedure that exists. Hell, Hemispherectomy has existed since the 1920's. For those who don't know what Hemispherectomy is, it's the radical procedure of removing the diseased areas, or even half of a patient's brain. It's a survivable operation. Brain biopsies are pretty self explanatory. Meaning, Jerry had no clue how to operate on Ellie's brain without killing her. A dead host generally kills most parasites. In CBIs case, the only thing the fungus can do with a corpse is use it to make spores. Now I'm willing to bet that if there were any qualified doctors & scientists capable of making a cure, they'd be in the Atlanta QZ, since the real world CDC headquarters is in Atlanta. From the Left Behind DLC, we know it's still an active QZ. As terribly flawed FEDRA is, they're the equivalent to FEMA. I don't trust the Fireflies worth a damn. I trust them even less than FEDRA. They held Joel & Tess's guns from them, but also expect them to escort living cargo across Boston, out of the QZ to rendezvous at the Capital building. Maybe actually have them rendezvous 10 miles outside of the QZ, since we know they keep to that radius. Maybe also give them some of their guns at least. It's not exactly a walk in the park. Also, how the F did Marlene get to Salt Lake City before them? It feels like you didn't even need them. Also also, tell Ellie all your backup plans before sending her off with smugglers, so they don't get sent on a wild goose chase across the continent. I just view all the Fireflies grossly incompetent.
Slight perspective change at 8:26 . Joel wasn't pissed because Henry put Joels life in Danger. Joel was pissed because Henry put Ellie in danger. This becomes apparent because the only reason why Joel let up on the gun was when Ellie said "he saved me too".
Outside of knowing him I think we’d all agree Joel is a terrible person but then if you know him he’s exactly the kind of person you’d want to love you.
I don't think he's a terrible person. At least from what we directly see in the game. I think the biggest thing that supports this is the fact that he never delivers unnecessary harm onto others. All his decisions are practical and to the point. While you can't say that about the cannibal guy, he might say he does what he does just to survive. Yet he seems to very much enjoy tormenting Ellie by threatening to chop her up, hunting her down, and forcing her down to ground seemingly like he was going to force himself on her. While Joel even when torturing two guys his only goal is information, with no hint of deriving pleasure from it despite them being cannibals who hunted down Ellie and delivered her to a pedophile.
I used to think everyone would agree Dr Mengele is a terrible person once. I no longer hold such naive ideas about the universality of my moral intuitions.
@@jeronimo196 you have to look at what I said in a very certain way to get THAT from it. It's one thing to experiment on innocent people just for scientific information. It's another to torture cannibals to get information to save someone. Nice way of twisting my words. It's almost as if you didn't even try to understand what I said and just went with the first interpretation that popped up in your head.
@@justadude3789 I was replaying to Shaggyone789, not to you. I'm bringing up Dr Mengele, since a lot of people seem eager to defend human experimentation done by the Fireflies without a second thought. I agree with you wholeheartedly and expect good parents would try to do what Joel did - even if "good people" wouldn't. We didn't survive this long by being saints.
When death is starting you and those who love you right in the face, what would YOU choose? Let your family die or not?. Joel's decision is not that hard to understand, only those with no blood on their hands or a near-death experience can't comprehend choices that are so dark and soul-breaking like that. Trust me, almost everyone here will protect their love once above everything else because we are like that, complex and complicated creatures that have to face real tragic decisions, thankfully we lived on a much safer era, where decisions such as these are rare.
This is the first time in my life I hear TP ost ( my fav zelda ever ) along with my top1 game of all time, truly beautiful ❤️🔥 and great video btw aha
Joel had a RESPONSIBILITY to Ellie and was protecting her due to that. He does NOT have a responsibility to the world and they were going to dissect a CHILD without her consent. Why is this a question??? Joel didn’t need to be Ellie’s biological father. He took over that role himself and a parent SHOULD do exactly what he did. A parent instinctively is going to protect their children against ANYONE trying to harm them and he is NOT wrong for carrying out that role. His duty was to her, not anyone else and we know this isn’t wrong because if HE was the one they needed to dissect in order to get the cure we know he’d do it. He’d be willing to give up his own life. He is not selfish - he acted as a father SHOULD and is biologically made to do. We know this is right because if we lived in a similar situation and the CDC wanted to dissect a child to get a cure for COVID and the parent killed all of them we’d never fault the parent. We’d say that parent did was he was supposed to do - protect their child and not find him at fault at all. How do people not understand this???
Is really weird. Like, him doing bad stuff doesn't mean that his choice to save Ellie was the wrong one. Is like having Walter White being arrested for defending his son against the bullies in the first episode
Joel is as big of a monster as the next person in that world. He didn't do anything that anyone hasn't done or were willing to do if things reached the same point.
Hey, I wanted to say that I really loved your GoW:R video essays and wanted to give you some uhhh what's the word... interaction? I dunno. You make good content. Keep up the work.
Never noticed it before, but during the final scene. When Joel talks about surviving and learning how to do that (hinting that some major survivor-guilt issues regarding his daughter), he rubs his watch. It's stuff like that really makes this game hit you in the feels.
Joel is a monster, but he’s also a good man, and also everything opposite to both of of those. He’s just one of those characters like Walter White or Tony Soprano where you cant tell if you love him or not but you also can.
After playing both games again as well, I've noticed that, the ending with the fireflies is truly the part of the game that felt like plot took over character decisions. With Ellie and Joel in custody and Marlene in charge, there was no reason to rush into the procedure with Ellie still unconscious. No reason not to talk to and explain the situation with both of them. Marlene had a pretty good relationship with both Joel and Ellie. And I think, given the context, Ellie would have been able to convince Joel to let her go through the procedure willingly without violence. I don't know how that would have affected Joel considering his development. But it wouldn't have forced him into the violence that spent the last 20 years using to survive
Exactly! They could have waited for Ellie to be conscious again and have a discussion with her and Joel, but instead they decided to just kill her. Knowing Ellie she would have been okay the procedure that will kill her.
Think there are audio logs and diaries in that part that point out that Marlene & the Fireflys were already pushed to the brink. Marlene points out she is a leader in name only and that if she didn't agree to the immediate surgery then she would have a mutiny. The Firefly's were not going to take no for an answer and probably thought it kinder to not to wake Ellie just for her to realise she was very likely to die. Also, considering how much the death of his daughter effected him I sincerely doubt Joel could stand letting Ellie die. He was willing to damn perhaps the ONLY chance of a cure for the entire world for her life, I doubt he would stop for her feelings.
@@IrishWarrior00 I do recall this in the game so you are indeed correct. But I still think it's a contrived excuse to force the violent confrontation that we got at the end of the game. And for a long time I gave it a pass cuz it's damn good compelling drama. But part 2 is egregious in how many contrived situations and decisions the plot goes through to give us those shock value moments, to a point that I only really started to notice it in part one. On the subject of Joel, your also correct that his character wouldn't have let Ellie die, but In my own head cannon I like to believe Ellie had the influence on him by that point in the story to talk him down, since it is what she wants for herself and in that scenario no one is taking the choice away from her, not even Joel. I also believe it might have broken Joel even further though if that happened. But I digress, this all speculation after all.
You're right. Lack of open and honest communication, immediately turning to use of force instead of any attempt at diplomacy, doomed Marlene and any chances at even trying to find the cure, however unlikely that was. I'm not sure if Joel ever would have accepted Ellie's death, but it's definitely guaranteed he won't under these circumstances. I wish Marlene had gotten more screen time and character development.
@@IrishWarrior00 All it would take to avert that mutiny, though, is the one person they had capable of performing the actual procedure saying "NO. I'm doing this the ethical way or not at all, and if you don't like that you can kill me, and then how will you get the cure?" For failing to do that, Abby's dad had it coming. (Not that that makes Abby's reaction any less relatable.) You are probably right about Joel, though.
You can't say that Joel is a monster for putting Ellies safety first, a monster is a full blown psychopath that only cares about themselves and nobody else. Joel is a flawed character who displays a lot of empathy and love towards those close to him. Even unconditional love as is even more apparent in The Last of Us 2 when Ellie no longer reciprocates her love towards Joel or at least seemingly so. Joel will always love those he considers family no matter what, A monster would do no such thing!
Joel was a smuggler who shot people up, just because they were in the path of collecting a debt. He has ambushed people as a raider before. The actions he took to survive haunted his much kinder brother. When searching for Ellie, Joel showed he knew perfectly well how to interrogate and torture. He decides to keep a cure that would save humanity out of attachment to Ellie, and kills innocent doctors who were just doing their job so he would leave no witnesses. Even in combat, he fights with a callous brutality that would match the Punisher's. I believe Joel is a monster that rediscovered part of his humanity, but on the grander scale, the sum of his choices define him as a monster.
At least with respect to the situation in the hospital, especially in light of how the Fireflies set it up, I think it’s the sign of a good parent to want to act how Joel acted to save Ellie from a death she didn’t consent to. I agree with the video that lying about it wasn’t the right decision, but like you said it’s one many parents would make. “I didn’t want the weight of the world on my child’s shoulders” could be one way to rationalize it, but ultimately Ellie did deserve to know the full truth.
@@AU_TRL Joel lie because he knew that is want she kinda wanted but if he tell her the truth it could push her away because he rob her of her choise/perpose. but in the end they both had the same fear, fear of being alone or losing someone close. Ellie was his world, he truly see her as his own child, see his world get taking away again he couldn't help but to save her because that all he really had left.
I don't agree with your last point about Joel's decision to lie to Ellie being morally reprehensible, let alone worse than him killing a bunch of soldiers. Both actions were taken to defend Ellie, to save her life and to give her a reason to keep pushing forward. She doesn't need to die for other people, she is a child who deserves to grow up just like any other kid. There is nothing wrong with what he did
Love the content bro and your outro is me in the car with the radio off 😂 But fr, if he is a bad person for refusing to sacrifice his daughter then I am a bad person too because I’d never be able to let my kids go either, even if they expressed their willingness to be sacrificed for the greater good. Everything he did before Ellie, I couldn’t do or agree with so maybe I’m not that fucked up. But everything after I would 100%.
This essay is why I kind of wish TLoUPart2 wasn't a thing or at least written by the full team from the first one. This level of nuance is so thought provoking and in ways for the audience fun. The discussion from this game's story, a game 10 years old now, is just awesome. Concerning the question, I want to say the essay beings up a valid point. We keep saying "what Joel became" but maybe it's just what he "was". The beginning of the game shows the audience that he's not altruistic from the start. We are introduced to a man already stressed and beaten down by modern life and when the foundation of society begins to collapse on itself we see he's not willing to lend aid to anyone but his circle. The apocalypse did not make Joel into someone he wasn't already was, it just made him worse. The restraints of law and consequence are gone so what we see is Joel at his core and his capacity to give is only within the web of people he cares for. That does not include blood relation given the bad blood he and Tommy had. It's based on what he gets out of it. Reason why he learns to cherish Ellie, she gives him his daughter back. Tess, a partner and someone he trusted and could depend on helping him and vice versa. These selfish needs ironically are what humanize Joel, at least mirroring the many facets of humanity. Not just the good parts but the bad too (his lie to Ellie being the worst of the bad parts of humanity). To lie when he heard she wanted to go with her best friend (and the one she loved the most) then to tell her he wasn't lying was cruel. This is not me saying humanity is bad/evil at it's core because it's not but when people say "humanize" they always tend to focus on the good parts like humans are only made of good points. That has always been my take on it. Even now, I don't think Joel needs to be a good person to be a good protagonist. Protag and Antag are not exclusively good and evil but instead the main character and the force against said character. The psychology of his actions are insanely interesting though I think while I can understand everything Joel did him lying to Ellie and taking her agency was wrong. Which again, in some sick way is understandable. It doesn't mean his choices were right, just understandable though his lie at the end I couldn't understand. Reason why this question is so difficult, it's all grey. Even more so since the Fireflies weren't sure Ellie's death would even amount to anything and was going to do it without word to Ellie to give her choice. That fact keeps me from thinking Joel was wrong because even if Ellie chose to die it'd be suicide for no reason. It's complicated lol To add, Henry being the foil to Joel was not something I thought about before! I really like the deconstruction and how Joel got a taste of what it's like to suddenly be betrayed based on self preservation/selfishness. Not to say this kind of selfishness is bad but it's execution can be telling a greater depth of a person's self. Final thought, I wish instead of continuing Joel and Ellie's story in part 2 we got to see Joel and Tommy survive throughout that time skip (let's see those terrible things they did and how they handled it) and how Joel and Tess were at the beginning of their relationship/how they met/etc.
What’s interesting to me is how differently Kratos handled a similar situation in Ragnarok. He didn’t take the choice of life and death away from Freya like he did in the first game. He let her choose what to do with Odin’s spirit. Of course Sindri was the Joel in the situation. And I don’t blame him for what he did at all.
@@OrtadragoonX This is insanely interesting to compare and a good point. I think the biggest difference was it wasn't Freya's life but one of her enemy (and her drive throughout Ragnarok). After Nidhogg, Kratos promises to never take choice from Freya again but he did not regret saving her life. I do wonder, would he still be open to staying in line if Freya had to make a choice between her own life if she had a choice to end it or not (like what Freya had to do when Freyr decided to sacrifice himself). Honestly, I think Kratos would, his growth was insanely good and he seems incredible humbled and sincere. Him giving her the choice with Odin was a huge W. True, Sindri was what Joel would be. No room for questions or dialogue, just action no matter what anyone else has to say. His need above others like Joel is. I don't blame Sindri either despite the complexity of that situation. With Ellie, it's her own life Joel is concerned with. Makes me wonder, if Joel was in a situation like Kratos would have have made the same mistake? Probably, because like Sindri there wasn't a journey of healing but personality and experience are also factors.
the game to me is simply about the choices we make under the circumstances that a life which is in not within our control puts us in ... the choices are the only thing within our control ... and every choice has consequence ... not who is 'good' or 'bad' and why that's important or not also i believe the writers only wanted the audience to choose to emotionally engage with the story and characters, not caring which emotion ... I think it's written masterfully to deeply engage from many perspectives in this way great vid thumbs up 👍
Comparing Joel’s choice at the end to the cannibals justification is unfair, for a start the Fireflies renage on their deal and are going to kick him out with no gear at all which is basically a death sentence.
Great analysis. The writing in this series is unbelievable. To me, Joel is not a bad guy. He has a HUGE heart because he didn't want to see Ellie die. She reminders her of his daughter. Now, Joel selfishness is all about survival. It's not like he goes out and creates trouble. When it finds him, Joel doesn't mess around. Love love love this series.
You have to keep in mind too, that not only are the fireflies unsure if the cure would work but how would they mass produce it? At max just from Ellie they may get a couple hundred or a batch but after that then what happens
Joel is such an amazing character, even in death. Abby is the other one that is just super well written. Everyone in this world is capable of great evil but also great good.
I think the Fireflies are to blame. Imagine this: You've been knocked out, and your surrogate daughter almost drowned. Suddenly, you wake up, and they tell you she will die, and you don't get to speak with her. Who's fault is that? That's kinda why the narrative of the second game is hilariously bad in some aspects.
Set aside Joel and all of his motivations and needs. The Fireflies were dummies. How do you trust a bunch of dummies with humanity's only chance when they spent all of like 2 seconds examining Ellie before moving to cut her open? Besides that doctor looked pretty young to have been a qualified surgeon 20 years ago when all the doctor training came to an abrupt end. Joel should have been looking for an old, grumpy doctor who intended to pick and poke at Ellie for weeks or even months before moving forward. That's the sort you trust with something as valuable as Ellie's immunity.
Am I the only one who remembers finding audio logs throughout their compound that alluded to the fact the fireflies weren't trying to save the world and just themselves? That Marlene felt the pressure of her group to do this to save her leadership role? Or... am I remembering wrong?
Nope, those were definitely there. Not sure if they’re in the remake. I suspect most arguing in favor of the Fireflies missed these. Guess that’s the issue with hiding vital information behind optional audio lofs
@@avengedslipknot1000 Amy Hennig. Lead writer for Legacy of Kain, Ucharted. She isn’t listed as writer for TLoU, since Neil Druckman (creative director of TLoU at that moment) pushed her out of ND just before release. She was against any politics in her scripts - that’s why she got fired. Just compare the main game and DLC.
Joel is an amazing character because he's exactly what a survivor in an apocalypse would become. He's selfish, brutal, cold, and intelligent, and most of all, puts survival over everything else , which is why him growing to care about Ellie is so heartwarming
I'd argue that he is ONLY surviving though. He seems to exist on an almost day to day set up with very little plans apart from survival and his poor trust and social skills, while good at keeping himself alive, do not endear him into a community.
A good alternative example to this is his brother Tommy who also experienced very similar experiences during the apocalypse. However Tommy was still able to trust and connect with others, allowing him to join his community and find friends and partners.
@@IrishWarrior00 Tommy didn't lose a child, they are not the same. Tommy can't experience that pain of losing someone who means the world to Joel. Joel most likely also lost his wife, but we don't know for sure.
It doesn’t excuse him from doing evil things, bypassing the innocent, and lieing to Eli’s face. But I agree that most parents in his situation, would have probably turned out like him. Though most is not all.
and the fact that she didnt kill the fucker who killed joel just makes everyone so absolutely infuriated and shit on last of us 2 like its a public latrine.
Ut actually shouldn't be cause like u said hes selfish.
He killed 1ve the last surgeons living in the apocalypse
& took aways Ellies choice which was to die, even it was a small chance to save others from the fate so many are suffering & as ahe got older she felt guilty over his choice to take away her choice because she may have made a difference.
I understand Joel but that dont make his actions right.
From the moment Ellie asked how Joel knew that they were being ambushed and he said “I’ve been on both sides” I knew exactly what kind of person Joel was.
THIS. A thousand times this.
Would you be any better then him?
@@Stoney_Bologney_ that’s not the point. The point is he took away her autonomy by making the decision for her. If I made the same decision it be equally as selfish.
@@khaoslight3697 I would of did the same if I was in Joel shoes. I'm not gonna let them kill a 14 year old girl for a cure that may or may not would of worked.
@@Stoney_Bologney_ even though ellie would want to take that chance? Even if it was slim
Joel was a human being. Humans aren't easily labeled as wholly good or wholly evil. You can't even "put yourself in their shoes" because the world they live in is so terrible we cannot truly imagine what it would be like.
Well of course he’s a human being what else would he be? An alien? 😂
@@UFCWWE69 no, im the president of the moon
Even God labels humans as evil beings and letting the world die and with loved ones of their own just because some chick reminds you of your daughter at your side and killing other's loved ones like Abby's father for trying to save the world? you're just as much as a selfish monster as Joel was
@@UFCWWE69 He's talking about His death
Joel died
He's no longer human
He's dead.
Of course we can imagine it … We literally write decades worth of stories that are an example of that fact.
It baffles me how everyone forgets how the fireflies updated Joel and lack of updating Ellie on the procedure. They probably couldve stopped Joels rampage of they were honest and allowed Ellie to make a decision and possible goodbyes to eachother. But nope, they poked a very brutal bear
The whole argument of “Joel took away her agency” is dumb. Her agency was already taken away by the Fireflies. If anything, Joel took agency from the Fireflies.
People have only jumped on this bandwagon because the second game said Ellie would’ve wanted to risk it for the vaccine. But by the end of that game, being a mother at that point, I wonder if she felt differently.
You got my point! And before the mission (of delivering Ellie across the country), Marlene should have told Joel and Ellie about the attempted making of a cure would kill Ellie! Partially Marlene's fault and I suspect Marlene intend to keep it from Ellie.
@@branpod This! The fireflies stole all of Ellie's agency and put Joel in an impossible position, Let his surrogate daughter be murdered (and it is murder seeing as Ellie was not asked) for the potential good of the world or save his daughter from killers pretending to be saints and potentially damn us all. The moral mistake he makes is that whilst the fireflies stole all of Ellie's agency, by lying he refuses to give that agency back. He hasn't given Ellie control of her life, just taken it from the fireflies and given it to himself.
People latching on to Ellie's statements around being willing in game 2 miss the fact that by that point its purely hypothetical. Its probably very east to say you'd take a bullet for the good of the world...Its a lot harder to make that call when the gun is actually in your face (but again this is also part of Joel's moral failure. He has the chance to tell her when the choice can still be made,and doesn't..... by the time she finds out its all too late and everybody looses)
This point really bothers me, because the Fireflies easily could have waited for Ellie to wake up after almost drowning, and then explain the situation to her and Joel. Why were they so impatient? They needlessly tried to take her agency away. Nothing bad was going to happen to Ellie if they had just waited another day or two. So because of that, I think they're more to blame for what happened.
@@andrewcarroll3722 i think that their impatience has to stem from the fact that they know Ellie is immune and see her the cure, they don’t want to wait much longer to be able to save themselves and others.
One thing I noted in the game is that the Fireflies didn't even know if the surgery would've worked; there are lore sprinkles throughout the game that heavily sugest that the cration of a cure might not be even possible. I think that the Fireflies were going to kill Ellie for nothing. There's also the fact that in the second game, Abby's dad was very, VERY hesitant to perform the surgery. Something tells me that Joel made the right choice. But... Joel should've told her... gah damn it still hits hard
Considering how ridiculously high the stakes were I do understand their actions. Yeah the chance of a cure is implied to to be very slim, but there was still a chance, a hope. To sacrifice one life for even the slightest possibility of saving the entire human race from slow, painful death, or worse. It was clearly a sacrifice they were willing to make and I can't say I really blame them for that. Yeah they probably should have told Ellie but they couldn't really afford to let her go and were probably trying to spare her the reality of the situation, she would just go asleep thinking she's helping save millions of lives and simply never wake up. Maybe that's a mercy, given the messed up situation?
I mean, considering Joel's character I think he would have done the exact same thing even if the it was 100% definite that a successful vaccine was able to be made. Joel does not care about "humanity" and demonstrates this throughout the game. He cares about those close to him and only them.
But I imagine Naughty Dog wanted to keep it a bit more ambiguous than that so kept it as a final long shot.
@@sovereign9645 there was many other attempts at doing the same exact surgery they did to ellie and they never worked. Iggnoring this and the fact that a vaccine for a fungi cannot exist in the real world we live in, even if they had the cure, there would still be problems. People forget that humans dont work like marvel movies. It's not like a key is unlcoked and the purple bad smoke dissapearss from the world and flowers start to grow again. The production of the cure wouldd be ddifficult, it would have to be contained and mass produced for a long time and then the problem of having limited sources or just having the cure occurs. People will either not believe the cure is real, or attack the fireflies in attempt to murder them and steal the cure for themselves. The writers and the players focus too much on the cure here (especially the script in tlou 2) and they dont think about the CHOICE. The dilemma to me here is, Ellie got blocked from havingg her own choice and what she wouldd like to do with her life. It doesnt matter if the cure wouldd exist and if it ddid, would it help the world. Even if the iea of a vaccine is unrealistic, it's still her choice to do it.... but she couldnt choose for herself.
and fireflies might not be good guys like they said
they were hated by city guard so all they can effort are smugglers
never any proff or clue they saved or help anyone
and when Jole show a bit of sign he want Ellie back, fireflies point a gun at him and drag him out
EDIT: AND they didn't even pay Joel for finish the job
lmao, I remember watching a video, maybe from gametheorists, that suggested that creating a vaccine for this fungal virus would have been a literal impossibility. If you wanna check it out: ua-cam.com/video/S5ulX06McSY/v-deo.html
Regarding Joel getting upset at Henry, its not he same as when Joel didn't pick up that family. Joel didn't know that family, but he knew Henry enough to help each other, and he has the right to be upset when that person he knows betrays him.
Good point.
Personally, I don’t know if that checks out. Sure, Joel didn’t know that family, but he didn’t have any kind of evidence or gut feeling that they were a threat. He knew they were innocent, but just didn’t care. Friend or a new person, you know that individual or family is not a danger to you.
@@afrinaut3094 He'd already seen what happens to people that are infected. It wasn't worth the risk to pick them up. He didn't know them at all. Henry knew Joel and Ellie and knew they weren't infected. I don't really blame him for running either. He had his brother to look out for and there was literally nothing he could do to help Joel up in the little time that they had.
Both Henry and Joel may have knew each other but they were not necessarily family or as close as family, they were helping each other because they both agreed it was the best chance of getting out of the city. Henry leaving Joel and Ellie behind to save himself and Sam is still relatively along the same lines that Joel has done because Sam is his only actual family left and his safety was his utmost priority. I agree they are not the exact same thing but I feel that Henry had every right to leave him behind just as much as Joel had every right to leave the family behind and Joel getting mad at Henry still shows a certain level of hypocrisy and irony.
@@huntersauls3562 I think the problem in that is that Henry didn't go off with his brother and stay that way. They linked up back with Joel again. It seems that he wanted to keep travelling with them AFTER he left Joel to die. Joel now knows that Henry is willing to betray him for sure. There's no reason for Joel to take kindly to that. Joel reacted with violence but that's generally how he responds to threats. He is a broken man with trust issues already. Betraying him will not make him more rational and self reflective, it will make him angry and defensive. Expecting sudden noble traits from a broken man who has never indicated such traits is kind of asking for disappointment.
I think it gets messer when you consider Gerry the doctor that was going to cut open Ellie, was asked a serious question by Marlene if he would so gung-ho if it was his daughter on the table and Gerry Hesitated and basically give no answer to her. He wouldn’t sacrifice his daughter for humanity but has no issue doing to a stranger which is a surprisely huge lack of empathy for a supposed “good” guy. This low key makes Joel justified in what he did to him and the fireflies.
I've said this many times: humans are walking contradictions.
Honestly, if anything, this makes Abby's revenge more unjustified. Since she knew her dad didn't want to perform the procedure because he understood the fear of losing a child as well as the basic morality of operating on someone without concent. It makes Abby's brutal revenge seem very odd since she should be able to epicenter together that her dad may have done the same thing for her if the roles were reversed. Also not to mention that Joel and Tommy saved her life.
@@spegwettie9053 Thank you, thank you, thank you. This is part of why I still don’t like Abby and people don’t usually bring it up.
Well yeah it's human nature to protect their own tribe while letting other die. Wether that tribe is family, race, country, politics, or whatever, we're all tribalistic
Joel is neither a villain nor a hero, he is *HUMAN*
Yes, he is human. Which makes him subject to moral judgement
Cringe
he's not human
Trying to survive in a barbaric world where you have to sleep with 1 eye open, monsters or humans smh
And human is evil so yeah, he is a villain.
Joel is the most realistic character ever. Anyone can sit back and and be all morally righteous. Joel lying to her isn’t a big deal. He’s not going to let her die like his daughter did.
And the way the scene ended, Ellie obviously knew something wasn't right, but chose to trust his decision.
I can name a lot of characters with similar or greater resolve to do anything to save their loved ones
Most realistic character is the random dude getting bitten in the prolog, thats what most of us would be, and if anyone would make it for 20 years in such a gruesome world, he would probably develop a fitting mindset, given the circumstances, i think Joel is an absolute angel.
This dudes video is like that tiktok sound “i can justify racism but X is where I draw the line” 😂 he can justify the murder but not the lie. Get a grip, bruh
But it is a big deal. It was her choice to make. Ellie in part 2 tells you how big a deal it was lol
Joel was a realistic character who acted in the best way to help his family. In real life his actions are the best option fo keep them safe he’s not a clean hero but he’s more relatable than any other heroic character.
The question of whether or not Joel was a good person or not is kind of missing the point, I think. Joel did bad things; not just killing people, and not just killing people who didn't deserve it. But EVERYBODY in the game does horrible things. Even the fireflies, like you said, would have killed Ellie for possibly nothing. Even Ellie kills people in the game. The world burned down; surviving means doing terrible things whether you mean to or not.
I think the real question that needs to be asked, the question that asking whether or not Joel is justified or whether he's a good person is dancing around is...why is he doing the things he does? You brought up the group of cannibals and David, but there is a distinct and stark difference in motive between David and Joel. David is trying to rebuild the past. Joel is trying to build a future. Maybe not for himself, but at least for Ellie. She doesn't just represent his family; she represents the future of humanity. At least to Joel.
And I think there's a really important question that needs to be asked; is rebuilding the past something worthwhile? Is it even something reasonable to expect? Do people really think that they can roll back the clock twenty years and go back to the way things were? The fireflies seem to think they can, but it needs to be said outright; the fireflies are wrong. The world burned down twenty years ago. There are only ashes left.
And that's the real stress in Joel's actions. He's a bad dude. He does terrible things. He kills innocent people. He kills doctors. But what he is doing, while he is doing all that, is moving forward. Moving towards the future. Joel was stuck in place for twenty years, and now with Ellie, he can see a light at the end of the tunnel. Does that make what he does justified? Are they good choices? Hell no. But you can't make good choices all the time. Sometimes you have to make the best bad choice that you can.
I'm not slagging the video off, by the way. This is a good analysis. Thumbs up.
I agree rebuilding the past is not the right choice
While your analysis is spot on and the video essay is amazing you ignored one thing the video said it right: Was it his choice though? Yes, maybe the past was bad. Maybe you are completely right, it is bad, but was it his choice or Ellie's? No, it should have been hers. And this is why hers and his future will actually just be a new version of the past, a bad one. Because we as humans do not accept the liberty of others to decide their life.
Joel was selfish in his love and just started a new future that is mirrored in the same mistakes of the past. There is no hope for humankind in Joel's decision and not because Ellie didn't sacrifice, but because morally people will never improve. What a great man and dad would have done would be to explain her what was at stake and let her decide. Yes, you could try to explain to her that it most definitely not worth it, but in the end accept her decision.
I compare The Last of Us story to David Simon's The Wire. Good and bad is all relative. If you're on the team with the drug dealers, then drug dealers are the good guys, but if you're the cops or an opposing drug gang, then those same drug dealers are the bad guys. There is no good or bad, just victims of circumstance.
I think you're wrong, I think rebuilding the past or at least attempting to get it to something close is a worthy goal in that world, it may have burned down 20 years ago but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying to rebuild, 1st time playing the game as I reached the end was the 1st major disconnect with Joel as far as the story goes, I understand the motives but not agree with them, and after then discussing it with my friend while he disagreed with me on it I said if there was ever a sequel it would come back to bite Jole back
@@dream6562 Maybe you're not a father but I am and I would of done the same as him. I think this game hits harder if you have kids especially a daughter. You will burn the world down if it means saving your child.
Joel is a perfect example of humanity. As we age we learn more about ourselves everyday. I'm in my mid 30s and I still can't figure out the man looking back at me in the mirror. I'd like to think if the apocalypse happened if be alot like Joel
Nah, you'd be 1 of the first 10 people who died the moment any kind of apocalypse happens lol
@@youtubestudiosucks978 Could be. God knows I got wrecked playing the game lol. 😆
There is a school of thought within psychology that we don’t ever truly know ourselves - most of our ideas about our character are ad hoc interpretations of our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors. Usually those interpretations are skewed by self-serving biases.
He did many terrible things but I don't see monster as a term for him. Like you say below, "it's complicated"
Nah. Hes a monster. Just like anybody else who had to fight to survive in that world. Its actually really simple.
@@covrtni I don't completely agree but yeah that's true.
@@covrtni only the strong survive kid.
@@lukashood25 and by the time you realize that youre one of the strong you see that youve become a monster too
@@covrtni no different then the zombies ripping people apart, I agree with you.
It's not cold blood to murder someone if you murder someone in the heat of passion. They didn't give her a choice, they lied to her, he might have been selfish, but it wasn't premeditated, he didn't plan out the murder, he was furious, and he decided I will kill you for that which I love. His blood was very much hot at that point.
While I understand the lost of control, due to anger, and him trying to protect his surrogate daughter, does that justify the killing of the scientist ? Does that justify him dooming humans , by refusing tgen a chance for a cure ?
I honestly don't think so. It's understandable , not forgivable imo
@@mozermzr3186 you must not have kids..
@@Deadly_fox512 I have family. And I know I would sacrifice myself in a heartbeat if that mean protecting them.
@mozermzr3186 family is not the same. You learn that once you have kids. I used to think that... until I had kids.
@@mozermzr3186 Well, that’s the thing. You would give your life to protect them. That’s almost the opposite of giving one of their lives to protect other people. Joel would have given his life to protect his family as well.
He is a damaged human being who never fully recovered from probably most traumatic situation a parent could go through. He was thrown into this new world broken and it change him into a selfish, cold, vicious animal who would do anything to survive. Then this young girl is thrown into his care and he is forced to remember what it was like to care and look after someone like Sarah to give his life to protect her and he learned to love her like his daughter. Quote by Joel - “ I struggle for a long time with surviving, but no matter what you keep finding something to fight for.”
He found that something to fight for - Ellie and he would’ve done anything to protect her and to not feel that lost he felt 20 years ago.
He’s not a monster, he’s a father a survivor he was out for two to three ppl only himself, Tommy and Ellie. He’s a survivor and did what he thought he should’ve done no matter what Ellie thought. He loved her and he wasn’t going to lose for too like Sarah.
Before Eli he was murdering for selfish reasons, with eli his murdering people for selfish reasons.
He does not care about eli, he cares about how eli makes him feel, and decided "He" can't live without her, whether she likes it or not.
The thing is she’s not Sarah. Let’s get that out the way fast lol. Ellie isn’t his daughter, Joel took his emotions that’s been built up for 20 years onto her. It doesn’t excuse killing a room full of doctors, the fire flies and Marlene for the sake of a girl who didn’t need his saving.
@@1kbmahan you ever played the rpg game Lisa: the painful?
That game expresses the notion of "a second chance for a failed broken man"
The protagonist and joel are the same at the end but the peotagonist of this game lets us see his past and hoe and why he tuened that way.
You cant really label these people on one side of the specteum, they are complicated. Human characters.
@@1kbmahan Y'all are both dumb.
I never hesitated for a second during the final moments in the hospital.
I made sure not to leave a single soul behind, because I know that's what Joel would do.
There are parents out there who will lie, cheat, steal, and kill to protect their children, and I really felt that energy coming from Joel.
What a masterfully personified character.
This is a video game. But it takes away from Ellie wanted she’s the one who’s immune not Joel this isn’t modern day this is a post apocalyptic nightmare. She wanted her immunity to mean something. It doesn’t excuse killing a whole building full of doctors to take one girl. It’s borderline insanity and fucked up. Joel isn’t her biological dad they simply are on a mission together.
@@1kbmahan The relationship between parent and child doesn't always have to do with biology. Adoption is a thing, just as an example.
And I agree that it's messed up and inexcusable!
What Joel did was evil and selfish!
And well written!
@@1kbmahan to understand Joel's morality or decisions however bad or good they are, ask yourself this question : If you were to bond with a girl who straight up reminds you of your late daughter, you got to share stories, hardships, nights, jokes, walks and food together, and overnight you come to realize that she's been taken for surgery where the chances of extracting a working cure are slim, would you willingly let go of her despite her not being your biological daughter? I can bet both of my kidneys that you won't ever let her sacrifice herself despite that being the idealistic choice.
If you answer with the opposite, I'll just say it's easy to respond in such since you've never been put in a similar situation.
@@1kbmahan you're lost on the full concept of why he did it sure you know why he did but you don't feel why he did and that's why he's a masterfully written character because you can have two completely different opinions of him and they both are correct. But i do have to add you mention that they live in a post apocalyptic nightmare but then compare his actions to our functioning societies morality?
@@1kbmahan I know for a fact I would have done the same thing. Yes, it's selfish and controlling. But I wouldn't give a shit about that if I were in Joel's shoes. I'd be past justification or any considerations of good and evil.
It’s honestly very weird to me that you believe a fourteen year old could ever exercise educated consent on literal martyrdom. A parents responsibility is to protect their child, and their own ego plays little factor in many decisions. Especially when they are only just developing anything resembling long term planning.
Exactly. When people say this, I always ask them: "If Ellie had agreed to David's plan, would Joel be wrong to stop it?" The response is always the same, "David's plan was unrealistic (blah, blah, blah)," but I point out that I didn't ask what they thought of David's plan, I only asked if Ellie agreed to the plan. They usually don't answer after that.
@@user-bk4op6ob7rWhat David's plan?
David’s actions aren’t really comparable to Joel’s. When Joel kills to protect Ellie it’s because her life is in imminent danger. David and his group are not. They don’t need to eat people to survive and he certainly doesn’t need to SA her. Lots of people survive without resorting to cannibalism and SA.
Joel is an amazing character. Had a tragic sad life.
Lost his wife from unknown causes leaving him to take care of their daughter.
Lost her daughter in horrible brutal way.
Spent 20 years surviving in a "survival of the fittest" world after the outbreak.
Found a tiny glimpse of happiness with Ellie (1 year, approximately).
Lost Ellie due to his decisions.
Was blamed for the everyone dying from the infection after Salt Lake.
Was brutally murdered helping some kids.
He lived 25 after the outbreak,crossing the country, not just hiding.
He is the true definition of a survivor in a post apocalyptic world.
I disagree with the Henry point Joel didn’t betray those people at the beginning he didn’t know them but Henry was someone he put his trust in and left him for dead first time he got.
As a father I can absolutely understand why Joel did what he did.
The great thing about Joel as a character is that he was neither a monster or a hero. He was a morally ambiguous character in the best way possible, and he did what many folks in his position would have done... survive.
Sure, he did many things that many people in our standard society would deem horrific, but so would anyone in the post-apocalyptic environment he lived in. He lived in a time where the world was overrun by infected fungus zombies, so he had no choice but to adapt and "get with the times", so to speak.
And also, there was likely no chance of a cure for the cordyceps even if the Fireflies succeeded with operating on Ellie. This is a mutated mushroom we're talking about here, not a typical virus or a disease.
On top of that, let's be honest, humanity as it is shown in The Last of Us probably doesn't deserve to thrive on anyways, regardless of whether or not there were still good and decent people alive. I mean, pretty much everyone on Earth is either a remorseless bandit or an infected humanoid with no sense of a conscience left.
Anyway, my point is, Joel is a reflection of the world he lived in. He's not a bad person in the traditional sense, but he's not morally righteous either. He did what he did because he was a human being who acted on what he thought was right specifically for him. That's what makes him a fascinating character.
He's better than most would turn out in such an apocalypse. Especially considering so many became cannibals, rapists etc. He cared about Ellie and made a choice a lot of people may make for a loved one.
And how would you know that ? Do you know most people to make that assumption? Or are you talking out your ass
Definitely not a monster when you take into account he’s in a post apocalyptic world where literally everyone is trying their best to survive any means necessary
Letting the world die and with loved ones of their own just because some chick reminds you of your daughter at your side and killing other's loved ones like Abby's father for trying to save the world? you're just as much as a selfish monster as Joel was
@@favinjae6255 Yeah r a cure that has at best 1% chance of actually working and it not like those were guys were innocent either. We don't know everything they done only that bunch of them are willing to kill a kid for a shot in dark without proper testing or alternatives besides killing her. Even if they did find a cure (Which in likelihood they wouldn't) do you really think they just selfless save the world. Last of Us has shown us how cruel human nature is, who says they wouldn't abuse the cure or hold it off from others in end and how would they even be able to with the limited resources there are.
@@favinjae6255 They tried to do the same to several people who was supposed to be immune and guess what: They all died. Joel did the right thing
Abby is more of a monster than Joel.
@@favinjae6255 it’s been 20 plus years even if there was a “cure” there is no possible way the world goes back to how it was.
While brutal, I don't think Joel's death was unexpected. The Last of Us Part 2 is very unambiguously about how violence begets violence. After an entire game of enacting humilating brutal deaths to others, of course, that was gonna come back around. Of course, the violent man would meet a violent end.
I think the fact that he died was completely fine, but the way it was executed, barley two hours into the game, and no justification for Abby's pov (until it's too late), was not.
@@russian_knight I think the worse travesty in the pacing of LOU2 is that if they had intermixed the stories instead of doing it like they did, the game would’ve been easier to parse, and you don’t have to reset gameplay-wise halfway through the game which is the real sin
@@VoltaVoid The easy story solution would have been to just have the lie come out, have Ellie run away, run into Abby, have them pal around with one another to build character with Joel in hot pursuit to try and fix things. Then when he finally does catch up, have the big reveal that he and Abby have that history together, have the death scene and all the guilt that comes with Ellie inadvertently getting her dad killed, then going on the revenge spree. Bingo, bango, bongo, logical and coherent plot that doesn't have one of the main characters hated from the start and trying to patch it up later.
even Mario is a monster but you still get to play him today he kills to save the princess usually in another castle lol
@@TheSpinkels hold tf up that actually sounds good tho.
The problem is that while Joel did many bad things, the reason he was killed was not one of them
Killing a group of terrorists that just stole all of his things to stop them from killing an innocent girl is not a bad thing
Exactly they were basically giving him a death sentence by kicking him out with no gear.
Except one of those "terrorists" was a relatively innocent (I understand he was still going to perform the surgery but of all the people there he understood the chances of success) doctor with a daughter that possessed one hell of an ax to grind from then on.
They where terrorists because they rebelled against the government in a apocalypse? You are being biased, joel was no better.
I think the problem that both Joel and the fireflies had is that neither of them gave Ellie a choice in the matter. Ellie should had been the one who got to choose but the fireflies decided to disregard her opinion and Joel lied to her about it until he was forced to be honest. Both I wouldn’t say either of them were bad. The fireflies goal was to cure the world of the fungi that cause their society to collapse would be the first step in restoring the world and Joel was a man traumatized by the death of his daughter and couldn’t go through it again and was willing to condemn humanity to the infected to keep Ellie from dying. Both side were selfish in this situation
@@daryno9048 The difference is Joel was reactionary. The Fireflies actively decided to kill a child without anyone’s consent for a tiny chance at a vaccine working. Joel acts to prevent a killing that was never agreed upon. You can say he took away her agency in that situation, but she really didn’t have it to begin with because the Fireflies had already taken it. This shift in the mindset of the fans has only taken place because the second game told us that Ellie would have wanted to risk it for the vaccine. But the characters in the first game did not have that information, can we really hold someone accountable to making a reasonable decision contrary to it?
Joel is probably the most realistic survivor in any post-apocalyptic game
As TLOU 2 taught us. We are all monsters to somebody, and at the same time, we are all heroes to somebody else.
It taught us not to leave behind witnesses. Would have stopped the violence.
I love your analysis videos! You articulate your thoughts so well in a concise and easy to follow way.
Your video essays are always of such high quality, hope you get the recognition you deserve
These questions about Joel’s morality are extremely complex. Even though as players of the game we grow attached to Joel, he is flawed with selfishness because of love as stated in the video. I think this trait is more prominent as the game progresses mainly because what he lost almost 20 years, he has found once again in Ellie. He lost the thing he loved the most, his daughter Sarah resulting in him becoming numb to emotions and specifically love. Ellie brings back these feelings and as we see he does anything to not to lose that again, even lie to her.
The fire flies are bad. They didn't even get ellie consent to take her brain
I love these video essays, I’m glad that you’re looking into games other than God of War. I can’t wait to see what else you’ll put out in the future!!!
Omg this guys character breakdowns are golden I never thought about Joel like this
Here’s the thing while we the players see that he does have a heart. The other enemy characters see him as a monster who killed the only chance at a cure. Abby players might hate but from her perspective Joel is a killer.
So technically Yes but also No.
But Abby knew why he did it
@@gaia7240 Joel knew the reason why the Fireflies wanted to kill Ellie. It still doesn't change the feels.
Crazy it will be 10 years, this June, since this game released. I never played it, never got the hang of a console, but I did watch several playthroughs back then. Just found your channel a couple days ago, and glad I did. Your essays are well thought out and discussed.
It wasn’t the same context, they’re literally a random family on the road comparing that to Henry who abandoned them after spending a significant amount of time with Joel & Ellie and understanding each other’s struggles & goals
17:01 in Joels defence, again, most dads lie to their children thinking they’re protecting them ALL THE TIME
I've had this opinion for years and I'm glad to see people (after all the Hell died down) are coming around and understanding that a "bad person" isn't necessarily "the bad guy", nor is "justifiable" the same as "right". Joel, to himself, to others, to Ellie, is a hero. To the Fireflies, to Abby, he's a villain. It's perfectly ok to hold these two viewpoints, appreciate the nuance, understand the self-interest, and still like a character. Sometimes (especially in a zombie outbreak), there are no good people and bad people; there's just people.
Very true. That's what makes the TLOU universe soooo compelling. The characters (and the world itself) feel so REAL, and the ending of the first game made you really think.
That was a fkn AWESOME video! One of the best I’ve ever seen. Much success to you!
Joel is the definition of a Human in the apocalypse he’s not a hero or a villain in a sense he’s a anti hero. He does what he wants to do and goes by his own moral code which sometimes lines up with everyone and sometimes doesn’t. Good and evil, right and wrong that’s all decided by the winners or in this case the survivors and he’s a survivor. But along the way he opens up to becoming more moral just in a sense thanks to el he’s truly a great written character.
I think Joel's reasons were sound as a father figure, but to any other person that isn't related to him in some way, his decisions at the end of 1 are monstrous regardless of the success chance of the surgery or vaccine. It still bugs me how shocked people were they would kill him off so quickly in 2, but like... No shit someone wanted revenge for that.
What if you're in the camp that hates how Joel died, but not that he did die?
@@sacredbeastzenon I'm in that camp.
@@sacredbeastzenon It's fair, I disagree but he goes out in a really rough way. A lot of stars aligned (Deus ex machina really) for him to be trapped in Abby's camp, but the way she killed him is not surprising. Living with that hate for years, she had the opportunity to kill him however she liked, and he got it a lot worse than a scalpel to the throat (or a flamethrower)
we knew he was going to die but the way he died without giving a fight was so not like joel they destroy his character also the story of the sequel is pretty bad i like what moist said about the sequel "the story itself isn't that bad but they tell it wrong , we shoul have play with abby from the start to empathize with her and later the joel flashbacks and then comes the rest of the game"
my issue LOU2 isn't that they killed Joel, its that they forced us to play the character that killed him .We have no relationship with Abby and it doesn't make sense to force players to play Abby. Abby had her reason for what she did, but those who loved Joel and Ellie didn't really care to understand where Abby is coming from. Its like making players play as Scar in Lion king, to understand his reason for killing Mufasa, we really don't care.
All the videos you do are simply just too good man. It’s impressive keep it up
Lying seems so harmless from your own perspective. It isn't until you see the damage it does to the people you love and how it affects their lives and reality that it starts to chip away at this image you have of yourself
He's human. He's the person taking care of himself and standing up for the ones he loves, no matter what. He's really what we wish we were. Not a perfect person, but a REAL one.
Letting the world die and with loved ones of their own just because some chick reminds you of your daughter at your side and killing other's loved ones like Abby's father for trying to save the world? you're just as much as a selfish monster as Joel was
@@favinjae6255 maybe I am, but if you truly loved someone and they were about to be killed, you might surprise yourself at what you'd do. "We don't trade lives"- Captain America
@@favinjae6255 The world was already dead. The fireflies would have never shared the cure even if it was successful. Joel did the right thing, you are looking at it as black and white just like the 2nd game tried to dumb it down to
@@favinjae6255 Joel was portrayed as a real person. Thats what people cant grasp, the game does not have a good or bad guy. You come to understand Joel really is just a POS. But in a world like that and after his familys death, that's probably how you would end up. The fireflies on the other hand dont let either Joel or Ellie know that the procedure will kill her and that they dont even know if it will work. But they are doing that because they are desperate to find a cure. Neither side is good. Neither side is bad. They are just people that have adjusted to there environment. Joel at the beginning of the game probably would have given up Ellie. By the end, Ellie is his daughter and to just assume that a person would give up there kid like that is funny. Its a selfish act to some degree, but thats what makes this feel real. He isnt some noble character.
@@conner1260 No the world was not already dead also the fireflies would have shared the cure lmao , the fireflies not sharing the cure doesn't make any since when you look at it logically and Joel is the reason Ellie became a monster as well which is why he had to die and like they said he had it coming to him
I looked at it as Joel not a monster.
Imagine something horrible happened to you that defined the rest of your life. You lived with it for years and years and it slowly eating away at you. Then suddenly you see yourself getting a second chance. A chance to be happy again and let go of that past or atleast be a peace with it. Then someone comes to you, threatening to cause that same exact scenario that define your entire life. Would you suddenly sit by?
I know what I would do.
The whole hospital is getting clapped if need be.
Lying to her also saved her because even if she went back, he killed the asshole doctor anyway. They would have probably killed her on a whim or went after Joel through her putting all of Jackson at risk.
Side note: The fireflies were asshole terrorists anyway. Even if they got a cure, they aren't the moral type to do anything good with it except extort and rule with it. They were ass backwards and braindead the entire game.
Want you don’t do, is pull a damn gun on Henry when you would’ve done the same thing Henry did. PERIOD
I just recently stumbled across this channel because of the God of War Ragnarok videos (which were really good). And I haven't even played the last of us or even watched it on youtube but this videos analyzing the psychology of the characters are awesome. I just subscribed! Please keep them coming!
I will never play the last of us 2 I just hate the idea that “revenge is bad” in a world where the apocalypse happened. Like if anything they should’ve at least given us the taste of victory killing Abbey, but instead Ellie decided she’s a completely different character
Your videos are so well done and incredible. I do think there could be an analysis done on characters Joel and Kratos that highlights their similarities. But also shows their differences and why audiences care for these characters.
Honestly, I wouldn't say he's a monster. Sure he's done a lot of killing, but in the apocalypse, it's about survival, and whether you like it or not, sometimes you HAVE to kill to save your own skin, or save someone else.
Joel didn't want to lose his second chance of having a daughter, and Ellie would have been perfect to fill the hole that he had for so many years. While he did murder a lot of firefly members, they honestly weren't doing him any good by not even letting him see Ellie, nor giving Ellie any choice to if she wanted to be sacrificed or not.
The Firefly clan were stupid to think that sacrificing Ellie would be a smart idea, because she's the only known person to be immune. Personally, I would have done more research to see why she's immune, instead of sacrificing her. Besides, it's scientifically impossible to make a vaccine from a fungi.
And yes, Joel at one point, said he was on "both sides", as in he was once a bandit and a normal survivor. So I'm sure he's done plenty of bad things, but that was a while ago. Joel has shown that he's capable of change, and is willing to do whatever it takes to protect Ellie. Even if it means, taking away the "possible but highly unlikely" chance of making a vaccine.
So is Joel a monster? No
Is he perfect? No
Is he decent? Yes
Could he have been worse? Absolutely
I see it differently, I think saving Ellie was the first unselfish thing he had done in a long time. The real question is survival justifiable at any cost? And for Joel when it came down to it, the answer was no. All the moral compromises he had made for the sake of survival finally took it's toll and when it came down to it, he put someone else's survival over his.
Just because he didn't do it for his own survival doesn't mean it's not selfish.
Just because his action was relatable doesn't mean he's right.
Good points you made, unfortunately we don't know the extreme lengths Joel did to survive only small comments from his brother and having his daughter killed by people who were meant to protect them propably just steeled him even more to trust nobody let alone humanity especially as a single parent because somtimes the only thing that keeps you going after truma like he experienced is the people really close to you an nobody else. I think with Joel now is, if your not a friend then you are a potential threat until proven otherwise. Maybe Naughty dog should make a game based on the life Joel had after his daughters passing up until The last of us part 1 ?😞
The Chronicles Of Joel ? ! The Book Of Joel ? ! The Survival Of Joel ? ! Take your pick, I really like your idea ! Now if only Naughty Dog could get on the right page, then we'd have an amazing prequel to TLOU.
@@levitaggart5943 I like it, too.
"He lies to her because he is terrified of her leaving him."
There's also that she wants to sacrifice her life to a shitty group of outsiders. You don't let teenagers make suicidal decisions if you can help it.
Joel is ultimately a good character... because even though he is in fact a shitty person in General, he's still a good father and someone who truly cares about his family....that makes him human nothing more and nothing less.
Joel doesn't choose to not help the family while they're driving, the driver chooses
His lie was for her. She knew it was a lie and she accepted it for him.
Joel was human, which is something fans forget when they look at his final moments. In that world, every surviving human becomes a monster at some point.
He's just doing what we'd all do in an apocalypse
All i know is that pure hearted people would have died off long ago in these zombie outbreaks. In order to survive, sacrifices and certain morals will have to go.
nah the end got me u got a point
love yo vids man
I don't think what Henry did to Joel can be fully compared to what Joel did cuz Joel wasn't with that other group he refused to help. Henry and his little bro was with Joel and Ellie for a while and fully sticking together until that time. What Henry was also seeing (probably)is that at least Ellie is free to escape. Ellie chose to jump back down and stay with Joel
thank you for the post, i do feel you missed the very last piece at the end where joel shows he is willing to protect the people he cares about even from themselves. joel and ellies journey rhyme each other in the sense that joel and his daughter were *both* shot at, but only she dies. he clearly struggles with survivors guilt and that manifests itself as incredibly violent outbursts when his family is threatened. the same is true with ellie, except in her it manifests itself as poetically-suicidal. shes already faced certain death when she first got infected, and she almost expects to die at any moment. you can see this when henry ditches joel, ellie jumps down knowing full well this might be the place where they die, and that at least theyll die together. i think in the end, joel is trying to protect her from the toxic survivors guilt he went through. you can also see evidence of this when tommy at the dam says that surviving with joel wasnt worth it and that he still has nightmare about it, which triggers joel's mr-hyde side to glimmer. joel protects his loved ones even when they dont want it, however i dont know if thats a redeeming quality or not. i think theres also room to argue that joel is essentially preventing ellie from suicide. a suicidal-sacrifice, is still suicide, but thats a whole other can of worms. for the record, i agree with everything you said about joel, this poor nerds only skill is killing, i dont have an answer to whether hes a good person or not, since you dont get to see what outcomes there could be when morality is introduced into the game because of the linear story, thanks again
The concept of good and evil is based on the environment you are in, the world of tlou is an environment where survival is prioritized over decency. There is hierarchy of needs that needs to be fulfilled before we think about morality.
1:30 part is so good, It made me rethink the whole reason why the game was directed the way it was. great video
Joel may have been a bad man but he had great character development which made this game a really good story game
Those two comparisons are not exactly the same. The people alongside the road were complete strangers. But Joel and Ellie established a cooperative relationship with Henry and Sam, so its considered more of a betrayal.
To better explain my reasoning
There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person tied on the other track.
Most people choose the utilitarian route and pull the lever. But if you change the scenario and only make it possible to save those five people by directly pushing that one person onto the tracks. Many people suddenly hesitate to make this decision, despite the outcome being the same. One persons dies and five people are saved. The point is Joels decision to keep driving past the family of strangers was an impersonal act of selfishness. But Henry and Sams "betrayal" was personal.
3xactly. Like you already have the same mission and trust towards Sam and Henry and they chose to abandon you . The people on road don't know them. I will leave them alone .
Joel obviously saved Ellie for personal reasons.
However, the Fireflies doctor(Jerry) was only a biologist, a fact you find out from a Sniper's note in the East Colorado University. He's only confirmed to have a bachelor's degree in that field from Northern Utah Medical College.
Now people may argue with textbooks, notes and proper equipment, he could have made a vaccine.
Could~Can
Weak~Strong
Brain biopsy is a procedure that exists.
Hell, Hemispherectomy has existed since the 1920's.
For those who don't know what Hemispherectomy is, it's the radical procedure of removing the diseased areas, or even half of a patient's brain.
It's a survivable operation.
Brain biopsies are pretty self explanatory.
Meaning, Jerry had no clue how to operate on Ellie's brain without killing her.
A dead host generally kills most parasites.
In CBIs case, the only thing the fungus can do with a corpse is use it to make spores.
Now I'm willing to bet that if there were any qualified doctors & scientists capable of making a cure, they'd be in the Atlanta QZ, since the real world CDC headquarters is in Atlanta.
From the Left Behind DLC, we know it's still an active QZ.
As terribly flawed FEDRA is, they're the equivalent to FEMA.
I don't trust the Fireflies worth a damn. I trust them even less than FEDRA.
They held Joel & Tess's guns from them, but also expect them to escort living cargo across Boston, out of the QZ to rendezvous at the Capital building.
Maybe actually have them rendezvous 10 miles outside of the QZ, since we know they keep to that radius.
Maybe also give them some of their guns at least. It's not exactly a walk in the park.
Also, how the F did Marlene get to Salt Lake City before them? It feels like you didn't even need them.
Also also, tell Ellie all your backup plans before sending her off with smugglers, so they don't get sent on a wild goose chase across the continent.
I just view all the Fireflies grossly incompetent.
Slight perspective change at 8:26 . Joel wasn't pissed because Henry put Joels life in Danger. Joel was pissed because Henry put Ellie in danger. This becomes apparent because the only reason why Joel let up on the gun was when Ellie said "he saved me too".
I know right
Outside of knowing him I think we’d all agree Joel is a terrible person but then if you know him he’s exactly the kind of person you’d want to love you.
I don't think he's a terrible person. At least from what we directly see in the game. I think the biggest thing that supports this is the fact that he never delivers unnecessary harm onto others. All his decisions are practical and to the point. While you can't say that about the cannibal guy, he might say he does what he does just to survive. Yet he seems to very much enjoy tormenting Ellie by threatening to chop her up, hunting her down, and forcing her down to ground seemingly like he was going to force himself on her.
While Joel even when torturing two guys his only goal is information, with no hint of deriving pleasure from it despite them being cannibals who hunted down Ellie and delivered her to a pedophile.
I used to think everyone would agree Dr Mengele is a terrible person once.
I no longer hold such naive ideas about the universality of my moral intuitions.
@@jeronimo196 you have to look at what I said in a very certain way to get THAT from it.
It's one thing to experiment on innocent people just for scientific information.
It's another to torture cannibals to get information to save someone.
Nice way of twisting my words. It's almost as if you didn't even try to understand what I said and just went with the first interpretation that popped up in your head.
@@justadude3789 I was replaying to Shaggyone789, not to you.
I'm bringing up Dr Mengele, since a lot of people seem eager to defend human experimentation done by the Fireflies without a second thought.
I agree with you wholeheartedly and expect good parents would try to do what Joel did - even if "good people" wouldn't.
We didn't survive this long by being saints.
@@jeronimo196 my bad, should've noticed your comment didn't mention me.
When death is starting you and those who love you right in the face, what would YOU choose? Let your family die or not?. Joel's decision is not that hard to understand, only those with no blood on their hands or a near-death experience can't comprehend choices that are so dark and soul-breaking like that. Trust me, almost everyone here will protect their love once above everything else because we are like that, complex and complicated creatures that have to face real tragic decisions, thankfully we lived on a much safer era, where decisions such as these are rare.
This is the first time in my life I hear TP ost ( my fav zelda ever ) along with my top1 game of all time, truly beautiful ❤️🔥 and great video btw aha
The dude that kidnapped Ellie was a pdf file? I always thought he was a cannibal
Joel did what a lot of people would have done.
I'd have done it without any guilt or remorse, it's common sense.
Joel had a RESPONSIBILITY to Ellie and was protecting her due to that. He does NOT have a responsibility to the world and they were going to dissect a CHILD without her consent. Why is this a question???
Joel didn’t need to be Ellie’s biological father. He took over that role himself and a parent SHOULD do exactly what he did. A parent instinctively is going to protect their children against ANYONE trying to harm them and he is NOT wrong for carrying out that role. His duty was to her, not anyone else and we know this isn’t wrong because if HE was the one they needed to dissect in order to get the cure we know he’d do it. He’d be willing to give up his own life. He is not selfish - he acted as a father SHOULD and is biologically made to do. We know this is right because if we lived in a similar situation and the CDC wanted to dissect a child to get a cure for COVID and the parent killed all of them we’d never fault the parent. We’d say that parent did was he was supposed to do - protect their child and not find him at fault at all.
How do people not understand this???
Is really weird. Like, him doing bad stuff doesn't mean that his choice to save Ellie was the wrong one.
Is like having Walter White being arrested for defending his son against the bullies in the first episode
Brett, this content of yours is fucking phenomenal.
I can't remember where I heard it, but something said about Joel always stuck with me:
No one good survives the apocalypse.
I think the individuals thoughts on Joel really set the tone for the question, does it how matter how you get there?
Joel is as big of a monster as the next person in that world. He didn't do anything that anyone hasn't done or were willing to do if things reached the same point.
Hey, I wanted to say that I really loved your GoW:R video essays and wanted to give you some uhhh what's the word... interaction? I dunno.
You make good content. Keep up the work.
Never noticed it before, but during the final scene. When Joel talks about surviving and learning how to do that (hinting that some major survivor-guilt issues regarding his daughter), he rubs his watch. It's stuff like that really makes this game hit you in the feels.
Joel is a monster, but he’s also a good man, and also everything opposite to both of of those. He’s just one of those characters like Walter White or Tony Soprano where you cant tell if you love him or not but you also can.
He ain't no monster. David is a monster. Jesus christ man
After playing both games again as well, I've noticed that, the ending with the fireflies is truly the part of the game that felt like plot took over character decisions. With Ellie and Joel in custody and Marlene in charge, there was no reason to rush into the procedure with Ellie still unconscious. No reason not to talk to and explain the situation with both of them. Marlene had a pretty good relationship with both Joel and Ellie. And I think, given the context, Ellie would have been able to convince Joel to let her go through the procedure willingly without violence. I don't know how that would have affected Joel considering his development. But it wouldn't have forced him into the violence that spent the last 20 years using to survive
Exactly! They could have waited for Ellie to be conscious again and have a discussion with her and Joel, but instead they decided to just kill her. Knowing Ellie she would have been okay the procedure that will kill her.
Think there are audio logs and diaries in that part that point out that Marlene & the Fireflys were already pushed to the brink. Marlene points out she is a leader in name only and that if she didn't agree to the immediate surgery then she would have a mutiny. The Firefly's were not going to take no for an answer and probably thought it kinder to not to wake Ellie just for her to realise she was very likely to die.
Also, considering how much the death of his daughter effected him I sincerely doubt Joel could stand letting Ellie die. He was willing to damn perhaps the ONLY chance of a cure for the entire world for her life, I doubt he would stop for her feelings.
@@IrishWarrior00 I do recall this in the game so you are indeed correct. But I still think it's a contrived excuse to force the violent confrontation that we got at the end of the game. And for a long time I gave it a pass cuz it's damn good compelling drama. But part 2 is egregious in how many contrived situations and decisions the plot goes through to give us those shock value moments, to a point that I only really started to notice it in part one. On the subject of Joel, your also correct that his character wouldn't have let Ellie die, but In my own head cannon I like to believe Ellie had the influence on him by that point in the story to talk him down, since it is what she wants for herself and in that scenario no one is taking the choice away from her, not even Joel. I also believe it might have broken Joel even further though if that happened. But I digress, this all speculation after all.
You're right. Lack of open and honest communication, immediately turning to use of force instead of any attempt at diplomacy, doomed Marlene and any chances at even trying to find the cure, however unlikely that was. I'm not sure if Joel ever would have accepted Ellie's death, but it's definitely guaranteed he won't under these circumstances.
I wish Marlene had gotten more screen time and character development.
@@IrishWarrior00 All it would take to avert that mutiny, though, is the one person they had capable of performing the actual procedure saying "NO. I'm doing this the ethical way or not at all, and if you don't like that you can kill me, and then how will you get the cure?" For failing to do that, Abby's dad had it coming. (Not that that makes Abby's reaction any less relatable.) You are probably right about Joel, though.
A really appreciate the Twilight Princess music to go along with this amazing commentary
You can't say that Joel is a monster for putting Ellies safety first, a monster is a full blown psychopath that only cares about themselves and nobody else. Joel is a flawed character who displays a lot of empathy and love towards those close to him. Even unconditional love as is even more apparent in The Last of Us 2 when Ellie no longer reciprocates her love towards Joel or at least seemingly so. Joel will always love those he considers family no matter what, A monster would do no such thing!
Joel was a smuggler who shot people up, just because they were in the path of collecting a debt. He has ambushed people as a raider before. The actions he took to survive haunted his much kinder brother. When searching for Ellie, Joel showed he knew perfectly well how to interrogate and torture. He decides to keep a cure that would save humanity out of attachment to Ellie, and kills innocent doctors who were just doing their job so he would leave no witnesses. Even in combat, he fights with a callous brutality that would match the Punisher's. I believe Joel is a monster that rediscovered part of his humanity, but on the grander scale, the sum of his choices define him as a monster.
I'm sure many of us would be doing the same things if we were Joel.
At least with respect to the situation in the hospital, especially in light of how the Fireflies set it up, I think it’s the sign of a good parent to want to act how Joel acted to save Ellie from a death she didn’t consent to.
I agree with the video that lying about it wasn’t the right decision, but like you said it’s one many parents would make. “I didn’t want the weight of the world on my child’s shoulders” could be one way to rationalize it, but ultimately Ellie did deserve to know the full truth.
@@AU_TRL Joel lie because he knew that is want she kinda wanted but if he tell her the truth it could push her away because he rob her of her choise/perpose. but in the end they both had the same fear, fear of being alone or losing someone close. Ellie was his world, he truly see her as his own child, see his world get taking away again he couldn't help but to save her because that all he really had left.
I don't agree with your last point about Joel's decision to lie to Ellie being morally reprehensible, let alone worse than him killing a bunch of soldiers. Both actions were taken to defend Ellie, to save her life and to give her a reason to keep pushing forward. She doesn't need to die for other people, she is a child who deserves to grow up just like any other kid. There is nothing wrong with what he did
Love the content bro and your outro is me in the car with the radio off 😂
But fr, if he is a bad person for refusing to sacrifice his daughter then I am a bad person too because I’d never be able to let my kids go either, even if they expressed their willingness to be sacrificed for the greater good. Everything he did before Ellie, I couldn’t do or agree with so maybe I’m not that fucked up. But everything after I would 100%.
He's not immoral. He's just brutally human.
This essay is why I kind of wish TLoUPart2 wasn't a thing or at least written by the full team from the first one. This level of nuance is so thought provoking and in ways for the audience fun. The discussion from this game's story, a game 10 years old now, is just awesome.
Concerning the question, I want to say the essay beings up a valid point. We keep saying "what Joel became" but maybe it's just what he "was". The beginning of the game shows the audience that he's not altruistic from the start. We are introduced to a man already stressed and beaten down by modern life and when the foundation of society begins to collapse on itself we see he's not willing to lend aid to anyone but his circle. The apocalypse did not make Joel into someone he wasn't already was, it just made him worse. The restraints of law and consequence are gone so what we see is Joel at his core and his capacity to give is only within the web of people he cares for. That does not include blood relation given the bad blood he and Tommy had. It's based on what he gets out of it. Reason why he learns to cherish Ellie, she gives him his daughter back. Tess, a partner and someone he trusted and could depend on helping him and vice versa.
These selfish needs ironically are what humanize Joel, at least mirroring the many facets of humanity. Not just the good parts but the bad too (his lie to Ellie being the worst of the bad parts of humanity). To lie when he heard she wanted to go with her best friend (and the one she loved the most) then to tell her he wasn't lying was cruel. This is not me saying humanity is bad/evil at it's core because it's not but when people say "humanize" they always tend to focus on the good parts like humans are only made of good points. That has always been my take on it.
Even now, I don't think Joel needs to be a good person to be a good protagonist. Protag and Antag are not exclusively good and evil but instead the main character and the force against said character. The psychology of his actions are insanely interesting though I think while I can understand everything Joel did him lying to Ellie and taking her agency was wrong. Which again, in some sick way is understandable. It doesn't mean his choices were right, just understandable though his lie at the end I couldn't understand. Reason why this question is so difficult, it's all grey. Even more so since the Fireflies weren't sure Ellie's death would even amount to anything and was going to do it without word to Ellie to give her choice. That fact keeps me from thinking Joel was wrong because even if Ellie chose to die it'd be suicide for no reason. It's complicated lol
To add, Henry being the foil to Joel was not something I thought about before! I really like the deconstruction and how Joel got a taste of what it's like to suddenly be betrayed based on self preservation/selfishness. Not to say this kind of selfishness is bad but it's execution can be telling a greater depth of a person's self. Final thought, I wish instead of continuing Joel and Ellie's story in part 2 we got to see Joel and Tommy survive throughout that time skip (let's see those terrible things they did and how they handled it) and how Joel and Tess were at the beginning of their relationship/how they met/etc.
What’s interesting to me is how differently Kratos handled a similar situation in Ragnarok.
He didn’t take the choice of life and death away from Freya like he did in the first game. He let her choose what to do with Odin’s spirit.
Of course Sindri was the Joel in the situation. And I don’t blame him for what he did at all.
@@OrtadragoonX This is insanely interesting to compare and a good point. I think the biggest difference was it wasn't Freya's life but one of her enemy (and her drive throughout Ragnarok).
After Nidhogg, Kratos promises to never take choice from Freya again but he did not regret saving her life. I do wonder, would he still be open to staying in line if Freya had to make a choice between her own life if she had a choice to end it or not (like what Freya had to do when Freyr decided to sacrifice himself). Honestly, I think Kratos would, his growth was insanely good and he seems incredible humbled and sincere. Him giving her the choice with Odin was a huge W.
True, Sindri was what Joel would be. No room for questions or dialogue, just action no matter what anyone else has to say. His need above others like Joel is. I don't blame Sindri either despite the complexity of that situation.
With Ellie, it's her own life Joel is concerned with. Makes me wonder, if Joel was in a situation like Kratos would have have made the same mistake? Probably, because like Sindri there wasn't a journey of healing but personality and experience are also factors.
the game to me is simply about the choices we make under the circumstances that a life which is in not within our control puts us in ... the choices are the only thing within our control ... and every choice has consequence ...
not who is 'good' or 'bad' and why that's important or not
also i believe the writers only wanted the audience to choose to emotionally engage with the story and characters, not caring which emotion ... I think it's written masterfully to deeply engage from many perspectives in this way
great vid thumbs up 👍
Comparing Joel’s choice at the end to the cannibals justification is unfair, for a start the Fireflies renage on their deal and are going to kick him out with no gear at all which is basically a death sentence.
Great analysis. The writing in this series is unbelievable. To me, Joel is not a bad guy. He has a HUGE heart because he didn't want to see Ellie die. She reminders her of his daughter. Now, Joel selfishness is all about survival. It's not like he goes out and creates trouble. When it finds him, Joel doesn't mess around. Love love love this series.
You have to keep in mind too, that not only are the fireflies unsure if the cure would work but how would they mass produce it? At max just from Ellie they may get a couple hundred or a batch but after that then what happens
Joe isn’t good or evil he just cares
Joel is such an amazing character, even in death. Abby is the other one that is just super well written. Everyone in this world is capable of great evil but also great good.
I think the Fireflies are to blame.
Imagine this: You've been knocked out, and your surrogate daughter almost drowned. Suddenly, you wake up, and they tell you she will die, and you don't get to speak with her. Who's fault is that? That's kinda why the narrative of the second game is hilariously bad in some aspects.
it isnt that simple tho, yes joels actions are justified i a sense, but hes no better than the fireflys, he never gave ellie agency over wher own fate
Let’s not forget in a tape recorder Marlene said the fireflies was planning to Joel while he was unconscious.
@@Utah842 what?
Joel is a momster who regains his humanity.
Set aside Joel and all of his motivations and needs. The Fireflies were dummies. How do you trust a bunch of dummies with humanity's only chance when they spent all of like 2 seconds examining Ellie before moving to cut her open? Besides that doctor looked pretty young to have been a qualified surgeon 20 years ago when all the doctor training came to an abrupt end. Joel should have been looking for an old, grumpy doctor who intended to pick and poke at Ellie for weeks or even months before moving forward. That's the sort you trust with something as valuable as Ellie's immunity.
Am I the only one who remembers finding audio logs throughout their compound that alluded to the fact the fireflies weren't trying to save the world and just themselves? That Marlene felt the pressure of her group to do this to save her leadership role? Or... am I remembering wrong?
Nope, those were definitely there. Not sure if they’re in the remake. I suspect most arguing in favor of the Fireflies missed these. Guess that’s the issue with hiding vital information behind optional audio lofs
Druckman deleted those audio logs in one of the patches after Amy got fired.
@@Barad-Dur_IsACapitalOfMordor unsurprising… rewriting an ending that managed to keep the first game relevant for 7 or so years
@@Barad-Dur_IsACapitalOfMordor who is Amy?
@@avengedslipknot1000 Amy Hennig. Lead writer for Legacy of Kain, Ucharted.
She isn’t listed as writer for TLoU, since Neil Druckman (creative director of TLoU at that moment) pushed her out of ND just before release.
She was against any politics in her scripts - that’s why she got fired.
Just compare the main game and DLC.