Destiny 2 - THE WINNOWER IS ACTUALLY REAL? Unveiling Was Right
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- Опубліковано 26 бер 2024
- The Gardener, The Winnower, The Allegory and the Unveiling. Final Shape lore suggests that the Winnower may be a separate being beyond the Darkness powers of the Witness.
“Destiny 2 Lore”
“Destiny 2 Final Shape Collector's Edition Lore”
“Destiny 2 Winnower”
“Destiny 2 Final Shape Story”
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Thanks for watching! - Ігри
I always presumed the Gardener and the Winnower became the light and darkness respectively. They became fundamental aspects of the universe, to take on a more passive role in directing it.
I like to picture my Gardener in a tuxedo T-Shirt, cause it says like, I wanna be formal, but I'm here to party too. I like to party, so I like my gardener to party.
Destiny story is influenced by a few things but Norse is a big factor.
I've typed this and more over the years of these lore dudes channels comment sections breaking this down.
I won't do it here only thing I'll suggest is for you/anyone to look up....
Ginnungagap.
@@elwalther21 I like to think of the Winnower with giant eagle’s wings singing lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with an Angel band and I’m in the front row and I’m HAMMERED DRUNK!
Hence why the Vex are almost universally unable to simulate paracausal forces, as the entire basis for their existence has its origins in a “time” before they were part of the universe: victory at the end of time without cheating.
Huh, I read it as The Gardener & The Winnower were one being (Light&Dark), playing The Great Game (creating universes) & when the Vex kept "winning" The Gardener changed the game by entering it, becoming The Traveler. The Winnower becomes The Veil in balance of The Traveler.
The Winnower & The Witness have been separate characters since their inceptions. It was pretty obvious that they were never the same, heck Savathun says it's the child of darkness & gives darkness a wicked shape.
It's good to see people finally realizing this✨
Mara Sov as well.
The problem comes in that we are in the end game of the series, and yet the Winower is still a secret?
@@RebelOfTheNorm242there is more coming after this part of the story is over, so while its the end of this saga there is more than enough opportunity to expand on the winnower after
@@RebelOfTheNorm242The Witness is the first big baddy of Destiny’s saga, the next one will most likely be The Winnower. We’ll see after we kill The Witness what comes next.
@@_The_Seeker_ GOSH I hope so!
Remember that old destiny 1 commercial with Giancarlo Esposito reading the story about the law of the jungle...
I wish they hadn't dropped that poem as one of the core themes, it would have been so cool
All the commercials from Vanilla Destiny were fire.
@@gabesmith3624 My favorite was the one where they showed all the different locations with Led Zepplin playing 🤘
That was so cringe.
I only ever saw that once and had to look it up again! Thanks for that nostalgic ride. I miss the hype and excitement
And let it be ALSO noted, a gardener and a winnower can be two aspects of ONE BEING, and a further note: a Gardener can also be a winnower and a Winnower can also be a gardener.
This is where I'm at lately, maybe they're representative of the id and ego of a single entity, the self and the shadow
This is probably true, because there is a theory that the traveler and the veil were once a one unit.
The traveller used to be one with the veil? Though, I still think they are the heterodox to the game that is mentioned. Running parallel to "nature" as we know it, using paracausal powers instead.
Monad is the Garden, Duad is the Winnower and Gardener
In fact it makes significantly more sense and frankly only sense if they are the same person because you can't be a gardener without being a winnower. A gardener literally is a winnower. But the writers for Destiny like throwing out esoteric nonsense and filler.
The Witness is, in many ways, a double-edged sword for the Winnower.
On the one hand, it does satisfy the idea of the victor having complete dominion over existence, shaping everything how they wish.
On the other hand, the calcification of reality into a single moment forever and carved away into "perfection" is not really compatible with the idea of existence-at-all-cost. If nothing happens ever again, existence becomes meaningless and probably unverifiable, like a divide by zero error.
The Winnower loses when the Witness wins, even though the Witness succeeding is the proof of the Winnowers logic taken to it's logical end point. Paradoxical, and probably important...
To put it into the metaphors terms;
If the knife cuts away everything, until the garden is no longer a garden and there's nothing left to cut, and the knife doesn't exist without something that must be cut - what happens to the knife?
That was the biggest nothing burger i have ever read in my fucking life.
What he’s trying to say, is if the universe is rendered into the final shape, while it would validate the winnowed ideals, it will have no meaning, as the principles of the winnower/witness now have no meaning without a universe to turn into the final shape
I guess the knife stops to exsit or have a purpose unless some new "game" starts
@@blitzcreed_1131 possible thats why the winnower agrees to play again, it might enjoy the game itself, as much as being proven right
Im probably very wrong but my takeaway was that the gardener is connected to the traveler and the winnower the veil, and the game's new rule was disrupted by the witness. The "reward those who make space for new complexity... To ensure there's always someone building something new," sounds like the precursors to me. The traveler fleeing seems like a desperate attempt to stop the disruption of the game. "Someone always building," and "steer the game away from gridlock," could both mean the precursors at the start, the eliksni before the witness arrived, now to us. I feel like the guardians and the ghosts are the current method to fix the gridlock of the witness no longer being the one "building something new," but rather wanting to destroy the traveler and everything it touches.
It’s possible the traveler and veil are what the Gardener and Winnower made to run in parallel for their game. The traveler is always creating life on random planets it came across. It would have been outside the gardener and Winnowers control but went with the rules of the game. The gardener could have created the traveler to constantly make life, and the winnower the veil, to test those that found it and reward them with power. To help those made by the traveler rise and become stronger. Making sure the game continues forever.
agreed!
If the veil and traveler were the winnower and gardener. We could theorize that much of our existence is owed to them, and much of our reality is their making. Seems to me that the witness wants the Final Shape a reality where it is the winnower and the gardener. From what you have said, it already has taken the place of winnower and is now working on being the gardener too.
My guess is that the guardians will end up in that position instead.
Venextron has a bunch of good videos on this, his theories sound the most plausible to me from the lore and in game cnematics
I had always hoped for some big plot twist and the traveler isn’t the gardener at all. That the veil/traveler merging is the winnower all along and we haven’t met the gardener yet
I still find it mad that the dark and light saga is basically ending with final shape, it feels like there’s a lot more, I hope bungie uses this expansion wisely and not just a side quest like light-fall
Also if your a Cosmere fan, the traveler and veil being one once reminds me of the shard bearers
Traveler + Veil = Adonalsium 😂
Honestly, don’t agree the winnowed will be a villain at all, whole saga has been leading to the idea that darkness and light are neutral, and its morality depends on the user. The winnower doesn’t need to kill or destroy like the witness, because it believes that the final shape will come about and it’ll be validated. I don’t believe it will be a friend necessarily, but definitely not an overt antagonist
My only disagreement is that in the unveiling the winnower implies that the Gardner left and broke their game, which could be fitting motivation for the winnower to act on fixing that creating some type of threat to us
I think it would be interesting to see after the final shape a post-credit scene of The Gardener creating another traveller whilst on the other side of the universe, the winnower is making its plans to come to our system due to us interfering with the final shape and the death of the witness. I don’t believe in any capacity we will stop the Final Shape from happening but I can see both pros and cons of how the final shape will eventually happen by our interference and the witness vision for a final shape. I think the next saga could heavily focus on us finding answers of where the gardener is and in our way we have oppositions such as new enemies and more.
I love the gardener and winnower story and it’d be so cool if it’s real
This was the moment Bungie would either retconn the Winnower or confirm it's exsistance which they choose the later by making the distinction here.
OMG GUYS THE GRENADE LAUNCHER IS TALKING
I mean it is real tho taken from concepts of other religions and other hand but the religion seemed be based on a more complex play of yin and Yang diverging it not only as balance but cause and effect the belief in life is believing in this I mean it’s its concept of having a greater purpose in the process of evolution as an animal but more to a grandiose cosmic level of conscious-evolution
It’s all real concept and all of religion is just glorified fan fiction no offense but there all lessons of gods and goddess using the life’s they live to deliver caution wisdom and various consequences of various wether it be good or bad
Another day another Evaze video, my collectors edition comes tomorrow and I’m restless af😂😂😂😂😂
Keep up the amazing work Man, your a boon to this loving community. We appreciate all your efforts❤️
I'm thinking the Veil and the Traveler might end up merging together, they seem like two sides of a same coin. Unstable without each other. Complementary forces. It might not be related, but if you look at the shapes of respectively the Veil and the Traveler, it definitely looks as if the Veil would wrap around or merge with the Traveler like a cocoon or a shell of sorts. And if you overlap them on top of each other, it looks like the symbol of infinity. The Traveler on one side, with the "mouth" of the veil merged into it and the Veil's "roots" on the other side they make an horizontal 8 shape. Again, it's just my visual interpretation and might not be related in any way.
The state of the game may not be great but the lore is what keeps me invested.
Hey Evaze, is there more about the technology the vanguard uses? I was sitting at the tower and looking up at the ships hovering there and wondered what kind of firepower they have.
Bungie pivoted and created the Witness, I genuinely believe that the Winower was real and really the boss before the Witness's inception.
Agreed and I think we need to realise that.
HOWEVER
there are still veiled statues playing a role. Even after the witness was introduced there's still a statue in the witness' own Pyramid
I am seeing some story parallels with ff14 and horizon. Creation of hades protocol to keep Gaia in check, creation of Hydelyn to keep Zodiark in check.
Awesome video
You know, when talk about all that stuff knives in the garden, we must keep in mind that, in the grimoire cards of D1, the Taken are being told to "take the knife".
Funny thing is that'll blow all the new age Bungie fans- the Destiny story is literally just a remix of their old game's stories: Pathways Into Darkness, Marathon, Myth, and Halo. Destiny is literally just those stories combined.
What is art but a remix of concepts from the past? I’d argue this is original enough to be a compelling new story.
Funny thing that will blow you away; All stories are the same story.
its clear the witness and winnower are 2 different beings but my prediction the gardener and winnower are just like the nine more anti material beings playing a game of our universe, the nine are bystanders, the traveler and the veil are avatars for their respective counter parts, and agents of the nine are mortal avatars or proxy bystanders for the bystanders.
14:29 is it just me or does the orb in the “veil” picture remind you of the orb(s) we see in the pyramid ships?
My guess is the Winnower will be the more passive, darkness enemy going forward, post Witness. We may not fight 'it' anytime soon (or at all), but I can still see that happening.
Even if the light / dark saga is over post lightfall, I could totally see the Winnower as more of a sideshow, as almost the faction leader for darkness forces post Witness.
I think you’re really onto something! Tho I think I’d like to take it one step forward.
You discussed how the traveler’s and veil’s powers run parallel to the laws of our reality, and at one point those powers and maybe even the entities themselves were a single entity and power, and how that seems to reference the gardener’s and winnower’s last rule. I believe the traveller and the veil, that used to be one, were a physical representation or maybe even a catalyst for this rule. Literally bring paracausality into our universe, and the gardener and the winnower are separate entities all together, perhaps their creators.
It’s interesting that the gardener said we’ll have to be careful so that this new rule doesn’t overpower or overwhelm the game, perhaps leading to the schism between light and dark, while the witness seeks to unify the powers in order to control the game, and effectively freeze it into a standstill.
I do believe the witness could be the first knife of the winnower but I do think it’s interesting that the witness seems to have a completely different goal to the winnower, the winnower wants to win through the rules of the game, leaving only a simple end to reality, as mentioned in the video. But the witness wants to end the game but freezing the progression of the game all together.
most underrated channel
I wouldn’t call his channel
Underrated, try searching up Venextron he’s been saying the Winnower is a seperate being for years
I feel as tho the traveler is the "new special rule" the knife that keeps the game from gridlock it's a part of the game made from the gardener often mistaken to be it, as the witness refers to the game and it's infinite cruelty when cutting the portal into to the traveler
Personally, I want the Winnower to be a separate entity/conciousness. One that (like the Guardener) is trapped/limited to its device (the Veil/Traveler respectively).
I want this because it would make the Witness/precursors a victim of the Veil/Winnower and not have him be the BIG bad, but the Darkness/Winnower be like has been hinted since D1.
My theory/hope is when the Precursors found the veil eons ago while searching for their purpose throughout the galaxy, the Veil/Winnower reached out to them and felt that it could use them to win the flower game. To "TAKE" them from the Gardener/Traveler and use them against it by giving them a purpose they so desperately wanted. When the Traveler/Gardener rejected the Precusrsors and fled, it would then manipulate them again to create another vessel for the Winnower. Tempting them to alow the Veil to combine their minds into a body. A body shaped with consciousness that the Winnower could enhabit as an entity made of thought. It has since been using that body as an extension of its body just like how the Veil is, but it is effectively on autopilot driven by the millions of minds that comprise its body.
I hope this is the case as it would be a nice WTF moment during Final Shape where we beat the Witness, but that only triggers the Winnowers Personality to take over. Maybe fleeing temporarily to do something that we then have to deal with in the Raid.
What happened to the precursors when they found the veil, also happened to Maya upon discovering the veil, so yah the precursors are victims to the veil/the winnower.
Love your content man and love this uptick in videos! Destiny lore junkies are eating good now because of you
imagine if the winnower just decides to manifest and destroy the witness, and then just vanish
Bungie uses language very un-literally in a lot of instances, it would be no surprise if this applied here as well. The Traveler is the Gardener's new rule and the Veil is the knife the Winnower created to try and subvert that new rule. The Traveler's power runs parallel to the natural forces of the universe, or in other words, the game. Knives are tools meant to be used by anyone who can hold them. This knife, the Veil was used by the witness to gain access to the Traveler, or the new rule that operates outside of the natural laws of the universe. The Traveler, this rule, only intervenes in exceptional circumstances. The Veil, the knife, is there for all and is open to giving its power to anyone who can wield it.
So a veil is typically something that protects the inside of another thing as its growing then later pn depending on the growing entities/beings the veil falls off or somehow gets discarded like a.mushroom while.tiny and unopened and freshly birthed from the dirt its shape.isnt mushroom.like initial its shape closer resembles a bullet and its.not until its veil breaks and falls to its stalk that the mushroom cap becomes opened and full.... What if the traveler while connected to the veil was in its infancy and the reason the two seperated was simply because the traveler had evolved or grown up.... This would also mean that the veil would have grown itself once disconnected eventually with the ability to fall to the ground and become mycelium to eventually regrow into another traveler
I like to think the Gardener and Winnower idea as a kind of survive or die through testing type of thing. The Traveller arrives, the Golden Age begins, the Darkness/Winnower arrives and then the Collapse/Test. This cycle has played out over and over again, just like with the Eliksni on Riis and the Whirlwind. But unlike them, humans and Earth survived, for this the Traveller gave of itself to create Guardians/Flowers to protect the Earth/Garden using Para-causal Power/Knife, after it was tested, weakened, and needed care. Not light or dark, but making and unmaking.
Think of it like a garden contest (sounds weird but stay with me here), it's all a test, to individual flowers to the soil to the decoration and the winner in the garden contest gets a prize. If the garden is not good enough to enter the garden contest or it fails at the first test, the gardener may abandon it and start a new project.
The thought of a gift to those who expand space for more complex life might be the paracausal abilities, be it both darkness and light.
I remember when I 1st played D1 a theory that the vex made the traveller
I have always felt that the Traveler was an aspect of the Gardener, which is the personification of the Light, and that there was more than ONE Traveler. If the Witness is say, an aspect of the Winnower, which could be argued is the personification of the Darkness, and here too I think there is more than ONE Witness, or being like the Witness.
Now, whether both the Gardener & the Winnower are beings (in and of themselves) are they primordial? or pre-existent? or outside of all that we see, percieve, feel, etc? hese are just some of the many questions as to their true nature.
I never thought the traveler and the Gardener were one in the same, as well as the witness and the winnower. The witness was the one that really had me sure he was not the winnower. Who is he the witness of?
I have a theory that none noticed yet:
In LightFall opening scene, when Traveller fires a beam of light at Witnesses pyramid, Traveller reveals the other half of the Veil. I’m guessing that the Gardener and Winnower have half of Veil each. (This is also confirmed when Slone and Aka speak, “Two Half’s Of A Whole..Long Divided…Reunited…Glimpse A Beyond…To The Beginning; beginning before life was able to achieve more complex being and must never become) What happens when both half Veils are combined? Perhaps during the time before start of time when Gardener and Winnower were playing the ‘game’ and got into disagreement, which broke the Vail ‘egg’ in half and spiralled existence as we know it into existence of the Universe. Perhaps for the Witness/Winnower to win the original argument started in the garden is to obtain the other half of the Veil belonging to the Gardener, thus winning the argument and becoming more powerful as the only one left, erasing the Gardener from existence.
*Can you do a video on this?
Separate question but why does the Unveiling illustration highlight Mars over say... Earth? Outside of Humans meeting the traveler there for the first time Mars is the planet that is being connected to by all the others. Has this been covered?
The one thing that makes me have hope the Winnower is real is the veiled statues. Theres one on the Witness' Pyramid in root of nightmares which means that it hasn't been retconned into the witness
I think the gardener and the winnower are both separate entities the way the new rule is spoken of it makes me think the traveller is the new rule offering power and ways to make sure there was something to ensure someone was always building something new in parallel to other and not tobdisrupt the whole game....?? Just a thought
Maby the vail is the traveller’s connection to the darkness more than it being the darkness equivalent of the traveller. Like the traveller is the centre of light while the vail is just its key to open or use darkness. And somewhere there is an entity like the traveller but of darkness that also has a connection to the light with its own light vail thingy.
One thing that would be cool is if the centre of darkness was represented with a simple design kind of like how the pyramid ships were believed to be the same as the traveller but darkness. And its light vail is organic maybe or something.
the winnower is kind of like lorkhan from the elder scrolls series, both god like beings that introduce to idea of limitations to create variations, and life
good comparison
Venex said it a while and me and my best friends have been true winnower believers since day one. Im glad the sentement is getting around....now...we jhst need to ethnically cleanse the non believers with you to carry our banner. Evade-Kell.
The Witness fells more like its own “creature”, I want a Veil version of the Speakers.
This is why I've always said that we can't completely end the Light vs Dark Saga til we defeat the Winnower. We have yet to hear a peep from her. The Witness is the big man on campus right now but I see a plot twist coming up. 👀
Quick reminder, as long as the Winnower and Gardener exist, Light and Dark will still remain, just in case the people think The Witness is the one who controls the darkness, he doesn’t. “He’s” more of a vessel of dark energy (basically Legion or Ermac to put in easy terms) made out of the monks who praised the Traveler before it fled away.
I’ve always assumed the gardener and winnower were the light and dark themselves
Do you remember the trailer for Season of Arrivals? Was the man speaking The Witness or The Winnower?
the symbol makes me think that the traveler is like our sun, there are 9 circles for each planet. Earth happens to be the one everything is branching from, and the veil was found on Saturn which has rings.
If the Winnower has a 2nd in command in the shape of the Witness (the knife etc) why woudnt the Gardener have a 2nd in command in the shape of the Travleler? Because if I am wrong and The Gardener = the Traveler then the amount of damage the 2nd in command of Darkness side can do directly to the Gardener is scary and this would mean Darkness is more powerfull than the Light, right?
When we go into the Pyramid ship on the Moon and other, we see a figure wearing a veil. Coincidence? I think not.
Could the Traveler actually be the Winnower?
The traveler gave us ghosts that separate what humans should be made into guardians giving only certain dead power. separating the Chaff humans stay dead and the Guardians rise. The witness using the veil wants to make a final shape their new garden one they think is better, they just have to get rid of the old garden keep what seeds they like, certain Witness of the Disciple to be planted into the next shape the final shape the ultimate garden.
14:15 but it rly is implied traveler is gardener
Isn't the winnower and the gardener supposed to predate all of these races especially the race that the witness came from?
Speaking of which I don't recall the witness ever saying that it was the darkness .
The Winnower is the Vex GOD(possibly).
Jokes on us, the whole Destiny universe is a TTRPG DM'd by Sheogorath.
Well the Winnower is just the Darkness no? Like that’s the witness name for it
Yes but no, it gets kinda complicated cause there's some sort of sentience within the traveler cause it's able to speak to us through dreams and such, and it's that sentience would presumably be the gardener, so it'd be logical to assume that the winower would be within the veil to some sense as it speaks too
Savathun outright tells us the Witness is not the Darkness
@@xXx_Regulus_xXx never said it was learn to read
Aw shit, here we go again
The traveler is the new rule and the witness is the knife!
What is the darkness-statues representing if not the winnower??
The winnower is going to put the witness in its place.
Yeah the Gardener and Winnower have always been broader concepts playing their little "flower game" with the before-stuff of the universe and not manifesting directly. The Traveler and the Witness cannot be them, merely powerful entities attempting to understand them.
Average Childish Universe-Ruining Tantrum Fan
VS
Justified Mercenary Swagger Grindset Enjoyer
[Winnower russian phonk-walks into the story]
Story Time!
I am the winnower of my coleus garden.
The “nine” are thee image seen earlier here….
plot twist the winnower is what created the traveler
Are we the Guardians? The knifes of the Traveler? Or IT? (The voice in the darkness)
I think we have had it backwards the Traveler is the Winnower. It facilitates what is necessary for life(terraforming) and moving a species toward its final shape with rebirth and immortality. The Gardener nourishes through the collection of knowledge, Logic and understanding. All concepts realized when lankshmi(sp) interfaced with it on Neomuna. I think the traveler has been the bad guy all a long.
Genuinely a great take imo, I wouldn’t mind if this was true
This does sound reasonable if it weren't for the fact that even the People before becoming the Witness, had already declared the Traveler the Gardener. But an interesting idea tho.
the trouble with this is that Lakshmi interfaced with the Veil, not the Traveler.
It doesn’t really make sense to me because the Traveler does what a gardener does by terraforming planets - creating “gardens” it wouldn’t make sense to make 2 forces named a gardener and winnower to have the winnower actually doing the gardening but I do think your right in that the traveler is the bad guy. I don’t think either the gardener or winnower are good guys, they’re basically playing a cosmic game of chess and the pawns are the life forms of that cosmos and all the suffering caused regardless of which “side” is still basically both their doing and faults
What if the traveler itself isnt the gardner but the new rule the gardner wanted to add to the game?
it's a separate entity
Its so funny how I said in another video that the Winnower is not the Witness and some random blueberry commented that I am crazy. Thanks for this Evaze.
That person clearly never paid attention because if they did they would have realized both the Witness and Winnower speaks totally differently 😂.
I always thought it was the widower lmao
Usually, I would argue against the Witness and Winnower on philosophical grounds...not this time, screw them, I like living and hoping, just try and stop that.
"It's not the power itself that shapes the world, but rather the one who controls said power."
The Witness wants everyone and everything in the universe to suffer just like its species has, causing massive conflict and struggle in it's wake, in order to enact its grand 'Final Shape' to prove once and for all that it and its species are truly worthy of the Traveller's gift of prosperity, or as the precursors described it, an unfettered chaos needed to be stopped. It won't stop until the entire universe is in it's bone crushing and mind twisting grasp, but in the end of it all, what will the Witness appear to claim after its mission is complete, will it feel accomplished, or will it see it all for nothing?
The traveler is a seed. To be planted in a garden.
You understand this is the premise for Babylon 5.
What did "The Witness" witness? Lol
F to all those chumps saying it was the traveler and Witness
I KNEW IT
Ah yeas the xenomorph is the final shape
Am I weird to think the two are just metaphors for fundamental philosophies? The Winnower is competition and the Gardener is cooperation. Neither is good or bad. The "Final Shape" is something composed of both Light and Dark. When life can learn to simultaneously compete and cooperate at the same time, they become far more powerful than either alone. Who best embodies this complete philosophy in Destiny? The guardians.
The Traveller and the Witness are playing the same game for the same outcome, just differently. The Witness believes he is the singular all powerful entity (the sword) capable of controlling both Dark and Light. Sword logic. The Traveller bets on entire civilizations (many moving parts) being the ideal candidates to harness Light and eventually the Dark. Bomb logic. TFS will decide which logic is right. One all powerful being, or many less powerful beings working together to become something greater than the sum of its parts.
it seems to me that the winnower’s first knife (or argument) is the witness, and in an effort to prove itself right and win the game, it would also lose the game because there is no more game left by the end.
this is why the gardener’s final argument (aka us, the guardian) is made the way they are. the gardener has no reason to win the game, only to continue it. by us winning against the witness, it proves both sides right. this is because of our guardians nature.
our guardian holds both the light and the darkness. they know when to grow life and when to cut it away. our guardian proves that instead of one being needed, both are needed to have a true garden. if a garden keeps growing, it becomes a forest, unstable and unmanageable. however, if a garden gets cut away to nothing, it becomes nothing; an empty plot of dirt with no life left to grow. this is also why the light and darkness saga will end after the final shape. there is no longer a desire to win the game by the winnower, but rather a desire to continue it on both sides.
Your content is peak
I feel that Witness has always been their own; they take on the guise of being 'on behalf' of the Winnower to assert conceptual power in a literal sense - thus inventing the Black Fleet to use as a biblical countershape to the Gardener's Traveller. A wicked-sharp shape, not at all natural. Chiselled from the rock.
Winnower however is both unable-by-law and too shackled down in it's position/role/state to be able to properly alert us to the Witness, so it lets others - enabled by paracausality one way or another, thank Gardener - make relevant points visible before using the Witness as a repeater to mail the related texts to Guardians as a shrouded request to put an end to the Witness, to shatter this imposter-knife. A stolen fire.
For the Witness wants to apply a 'goal' to the game. A purpose. That will end the game, start another, and it would end almost immediately because Vex would achieve the condition, end of.
So Winnower wants to be proven right, and to prove itself right the game must be let to occur organically - no artificial agents; hence why it was adamant on the garden analogy and how important the premise of it being properly perceived is.
Witness unfortunately has compromised the game, by starting as an uplifted people who seek to afflict the garden with a 'goal'.
Perhaps via this they found the Black Garden once upon a time, and the Garden as given a question with the Vex being called out from the foam of ifs and maybes as the absolute answer.
Another extreme could be derived from the blatant fact that the Traveller's underside still having not properly repaired. This leaves it vulnerable twice-so; internally to Witness, externally to Veil.
Challenge comes from trying to fathom how to unify the two; Witnesses tried it first time and it was scared, as a child would be afraid of a medical instrument.
Now it has had experience, perhaps - while it's attention is elsewhere - now could be a time to plug the Veil in, let Winnower help Gardener expel a weed that has Taken a Knife.
Though that may not be what transpires; I'm just hurling probabilities.
Ok I maybe crazy for this. You may have covered it. But I paused to get this theory out. So with what bungie has said of blurring the lines of light and dark. With what you mentioned around 4:07 about the winnower or whoever represents “dark” being about the strongest surviving and evolving to prove it’s worthy of existence. What if that’s actually the traveler? Hear me out. It goes from civilization to civilization helping them grow and become stronger. Yes it runs to survive to prove it is worthy of existence. Also what’s more dark than trying to stack the odds of survival in your favor by divine intervention. Plus if i wanted those to worship me or trust me I wouldn’t present myself as a dark entity. I’d present myself as a holy “light” bringing entity. And at least in a Christian style belief gods hand isn’t nearly as noticeable as the devils. Because god wants those who truly believe in him to seek him and see his subtle hand in their life. As for the devils he wants you notice him he wants you to think he is there for you. He is very visible and doesn’t seem evil. Kinda sounds like two entities. Plus in the game lore if the whispers on Europa are to be believed. In light there only death and darkness there is salvation. Yes you could apply that to the devil whispers to you but again on presentation could also apply to the traveler being truly evil. Idk my brain is running with this one and I’ve forgotten 100s of points I thought of. Ultimately they are definitely blurring the lines and with in game stuff can we really trust the traveler? Can we trust the witness? Can we trust whatever is beyond the witness? Or ultimately can we only really trust ourselves and our beliefs? I still want us to truly become paracausal to the point the connection to the traveler and darkness is irrelevant and the true powers we wield are powers claimed by both sides and we become the entity to harness both “sides” without restrictions without being gifted the powers. We become the true liberators of the universe’s natural powers. For them to no longer be enslaved to the gardener or winnower. Who know maybe the powers are truly alive but enslaved and we become their god for giving them the gift of freedom.
Ok that last part got crazy but yeah I wants to become the final entity giving all light and dark true freedom true joy true existence with no limitations.
The light vs dark is always referred to as a "game".
Maybe this is but the 1st game of the Gardener/Winnower.
And we are in the end game, the final chess pieces in play.
Once it's over, depending on the outcome (maybe the traveler dies along with the witness or one or the other lives), would yield the events to come after (the Vex) which would start the next game for the Winnower vs the Gardener.
Maybe the Winnower loses (The Darkness/Witness) and then begins to mobilize even greater threats like the vex or something even more powerful in the next saga.
The 1st game is paracausality, growth, decay, life, & death.
The 2nd game is pending.
This was obvious, personally I assumed the winnower was the tig bitty darkness statue. The witness is just like us, a user of paracausal power. Much like we are light bareres it(they) was once the same. Just a floaty head mong who wants to end the universe based on some cliché end goal.
I like the idea of the witness being the 1st knife. And that it’s a tool of the winnower. I would like to think of the traveler and veil as paracausal forces of nature, each am antithesis to the other.
I think the winnower is going to come in at the end of the raid and kill the witness itself and be like, "no one fucks with the traveler except me" then tells us we have a limited time to decide whether we are on it's side or the travelers before it wipes everything clean, including us, if we are not with it
That would be . . . Majestic
I can't help but feel the religious parallels and it's kind of incredible the thought that went into making Destiny.
Lol, they been holding on to their pants just making it up as they went.
@@donut3946 Well they good at keeping it up! 😏
They will finally, at last pick their strongest, most mind blowing ending now that everything is on the line.
The biggest reveals, the most deaths, the most shocking ending they can supply.
Not because it really IS the end (though it may be) but after all the making it up as they go, all the accidental retcons that demonstrated their lack of care and even lack of knowledge about their own lore FINALLY I am confident that the end will be at least interesting because to keep going with their wishy-washy Saturday morning cartoon nonsense at this point would be too stupid for words.
Even Luke Smith would care about the final chapter of the 10 year cycle.
But having said that I’m quite sure that all the stress of their awful corporate existence probably just sees a lot of them praying all days for home-time so, who really knows what the care factor is?
Under the threat of an uncertain future and with the axe always hovering above their heads it is a miracle they can still summon smiles for their vi-docs.
I know some will still care at least a little but others are obviously sick to death of Destiny and will be running, not walking, out the front door when Christmas break comes.
Expect nothing, just hope for good loot and gameplay.
Poor old Destiny. Corpo greed is death to art.
Makes me feel that the traveler doesnt even care about her creations she just want to win this game... these Gods see us as Pawns lol
Bungie took advantage of a simple plot hole that they made:
Not only the Winnower and Witness's perspectives and objectives differ greatly, but there's also the detail that they refer to themselves on different ways. The Winnower refers to itself as "Me", while the Witness refers to itself as "We". Now, there's that last plot hole that what talked to us on Shadowkeep should have been the Winnower, by it's mannerisms and way of presenting, but it referred to itself as "We", implying it's actually the Witness. But well, there's a simple answer for that: The Witness didn't exist yet on development. Both Witness and Winnower were the same character at some point and only after Beyond Light that they became apart.
I have to admit I'm relived they managed to salvage the witness' lore lol. The season of the deep had me seeing them as a villain pursuing a pointless goal. Seeing that there's more malice and rage and its coming from what was likely the worst fucking people in this precursor society has me far more intrigued. Its become a force of nature
The more crap that keeps happening in our world, the more I agree with what the Witness is attempting.
It's simple really the traveler is in fact the gardener and the vale is the winnower. The traveler connects it's bottom part to the vale and they are one part of a whole and right now they are divided over their game but together they go back to the beginning of time. Just like big fish said. Makes sense to me. It Would be really interesting if after final shape the vale starts doin stuff like moving or what not.
So by this definition the winnorer is the sword logic -“fight or die
jing and jang thye exist to bring balance no hatred just existents the one cant exist with aut the other and the withies is a perversions going to far in the dark ness
The traveler is A gardener it is not THE gardener