@sxnniibxnnii2492 Actually he lied about that. The Traveler did speak with him. It even told him about The Red Legion coming but he ignored it because he didn't want cause unnecessary panic. Yeah a bad move on his part.
I think it’s interesting the the prophecies from Curse of Osiris basically told us about this back in 2017 Two siblings cleaved by time and space, reflections never found alone, ( the traveler and the veil ) The ending of the eldritch race-a path long seen but never known. ( the witnesses race becoming one and seeking the final shape )
I always think about the aspect of Unveiling where the gardener and winnower agree to enter the flower game / universe to make their case from inside the game. My old guess was that the gardener tricked the winnower into the universe and remained outside. The Traveler being the proxy, not the gardener itself. That at least explained the nature of the chase and the animosity. The Witness (to this deception) needs to access the Traveler in order to exit the universe and confront the gardener. The Traveler isn't sentient. It's a bridge. Much like a light version of Oryx's Dreadnaught. It's the only way to access the gardener. This implied a lot of interesting ideas about a Witness Raid where we're actually the adds that defend the gardener from The Witness's raid on the Traveler. That would make a nice inversion of our ususal gameplay... especially my idea that the only sufficiently epic encounter would require three raid teams working in concert. Another old idea of mine was that The Veil was the piece of The Traveler that was used to make the Ghosts. The mote of darkness inside the light that reflects the duality of a yin-yang. They're old ideas, but I liked them.
I like this idea but i have some points that are just confusing. If the Witness had to access the Traveler to get out of the universe/„game“ why didnt he try it during the collapse when it attacked the traveler the first time? Didnt he have the veil to create the portal or like why didnt he do it back then? I like the idea of a reversed raid. Would at least be something different and new. Hope Bungie does something like this😉
@mBo_Beats Savathun betrayed the Witness and hid the Veil. But where the Veil was before that isn't clear. That's why I liked the idea of the Veil being a part of the Traveller. Savathun secured it during the collapse and immediately betrayed the Witness. Something like that, but I'm no expert.
@@khmr33 It was most likely aboard Nezarec's ship, given Savathûn killed him during the onset of the Collapse and hid his Ship beneath the Moons surface. I suspected the Veil itself to be Ahsa's left eye, removed from her during her fight with Nezarec trying to shield the Traveller from his assault. Though it's more likely I'm wrong about it being her left eye, given there is still a significant portion of damage to the Traveller's shell that the root like structure of the Veil looks to mirror. It's possible that they were a single entity at one point, with those "Roots" enveloping the spherical structure of the Traveller itself. Essentially when looking at Asher's Vex Simulated analysis of the Veil, those "Roots" extend around an empty space where a spherical structure would sit comfortably. The Traveller itself would likely sprout it's own "Roots" to entwine with the Veil's and flow around the surface of the Veil kn turn. It's possible that from the flat portion of the Veil, the harmonious union of Light & Dark "Roots" would grow a perfect Tree of Silver Wings. If looked at side on like we do with Asher's projections of Veil, it ould look like an incomplete infinity symbol. A broken sideways 8 with potentially infinite branches of the Tree of Silverwings growing from the broken portion Indefinitely. A quantum entanglement of Paracausality, where everything than has, does & could exist, while also not existing simultaneously for an eternal moment. Ultimately forming the foundation of the Garden before time and reality. The Gardener would likely to avoid that fate, returning to that perpetural state of predictable outcomes. No wonder the Traveller is always fleeting from those whom wish to return everything to that state, or use the combined forces of Light & Dark for something far worse in the case of the Witness.
@@khmr33 Sorry for the double reply, I forgot to mention something. It seems as though the The Witness itself was not present for the Collapse. Nezarec appears to have been the highest ranking among the force that caused the Collapse. Savathûn & her Brood appear to have been the primary enemy troops used in the assault. Rhulk was technically not present as he has been stationed within Savathûn's Throne World for some time. During the chaos of war, Savathûn was able to backstab (Literally) Nezarec and decieve everyone as to both the whereabouts of the Veil, Nezarec himself and Nezarec's ship. Likely pinning the betrayal on him, probably claiming he escaped during Savathûn's assault to Subdue the Traveller to go terrorise other civilisations. Nezarec did enjoy and gain power from inflicting pain and terror upon worlds after all. Him leaving Savathûn to secure the Traveller and subdue Humanity's attempts at resistance while he left to inflict terror and pain upon others is not an unreasonable claim. With Rhulk there to watch her in her Throne Wolrd and Crota's descendants Brood arriving to reinforce their hold over Sol would help reasssure The Witness that she wouldn't be able to enact any plans or scheme's whilst The Witness pursued the allegedly AWOL Nezarec with the majority of the Black Fleet. Encouraging the Sol Divisive's attempts to replicate the Veil with the Black Heart ended up at least buying more time for the Witness's search for the wayward Disciple that absconded with the Veil. Though Imperfect, it allowed the Witness to commune with the Sol Divisive and more importantly prevented the Traveller from healing itself. Savathûn's lie that was cloaked in an even more clever deception worked for the most part. The only variable that was never taken into account by Savathûn or the Witness was the appearance of the Risen, whom eventually formed into the Guardians to defend what remained of humanity. Which only ment Savathûn needed to incorporate us into her plans, without arousing the suspicion of the others. To a degree, she succeeded well beyond her initial plans but also failed to accomplish many of her major goals.
The traveller as stated is the master of the physical realm. The veil is the master of the conceptual space and logic. The Witness was created with both a traveller and the veil there. They said they sought the veil to understand the traveller and in turn used the will of the veil to shape the powers of the traveller to combine them. The traveller then fled. This may have been the schism of ideology. Allowing a species to have mastery and control over powers to warp the universe and themselves. The traveller just allows for unguided progress. It creates the means. The veil allows for control. It is a shaping tool to decide what the means are. And right now with the two halves apart. The traveller is like a mouth with no voice. And the veil is a screaming voice with no mouth. You even see these reflections on their dominions with the subclasses. The light subclasses had you reach out into the physical to harness. Whereas the darkness classes had you pass mental blocks and ideology restrictions to reveal.
I have an unfortunate hunch that the final shape story will disappoint, and a lot of things will go unaddressed and unexplained because it focuses so much on Cayde coming back and trying to pull on the nostalgia strings
Things remaining unadressed and unexplained is one of my main concerns as well. Really hope we do get some answers and I also hope those answers won't ruin anything like in Mass Effect 3.
I don’t see how the Precursors/Witness can be the Winnower. The Unveiling describes the Traveler and Winnower as co-eternal. But the Witness came into being because of the Traveler’s arrival and its refusal to communicate with the Precursors. That would mean that the Witness as the Winnower is not eternal, which conflicts with what we know from the Unveiling.
If that's the case, there definitely needs to be an explanation of (1)how Savathun traveled alongside the Witness to Humanity's Collapse. (2)How she sneaked the Veil past the entire black Fleet and hid it on Neptune. (3) And where was the Witness the entire time of the Collapse to the end of Season of the Seraph?
The only one that needs answering is 3 and maybe 1 in root of nightmares we got answer to 2 she killed nezarec and “whisked the veil away to neptune” and number 1 doesnt need to be explained lol we know savathun was a disciple so thats the answer to 1 he clearly didnt see her trickery and didnt predcit it
Imagine if the Gardener and Winnower are precursors that created their own universe (Destiny), the starhorse/30th anniversary pack connects Halo, Marathon, and Destiny in the paraverse
The story needs a gardener reveal for a satisfying conclusion. We know the gardener and winnower were at one point meant to be real entities they need to pay off the lore that has been set up. The witness and veil kind of derailed the light/dark story.
Here's an odd idea: when solanne mentioned schism. My brain immediately thought of this: The Witness and the Vex are the same people but are taking separate pathes to the final shape. Both are hiveminds. Both believe in only one universal standard. So think of the Witness as the orthodox/traditionalist sect where they believe in reuniting their gods; the answer will reveal itself. The Gardener and Widower story is basically a destiny version of the bible. The vex, respectively, would be the revolutionary/heretical/Atheist. They legit embraced becoming bacteria (if I'll be including your notion of the widower preferring simplicity) to further merge into one being. The goal is to ensure that the timeline results in one space where the vex rule beneath an eternal darkness. As well, flee from the darkness and any Witness faction, because I bet they'll be purged. Somewhat like how religious institutions will stamp out any semblance of opposition to the message. Don't know just a brief idea built from this video
This is definitely an interesting take. I think and have thought for a while that a lot of things connect to the Bible. Especially the witness forming from multiple people/souls. In the Bible that happens when more than 1000 demons forge to what’s known as a “Legion”.
Vex aren’t sentient. Not even alive, really. They’re also primordial. Every variation of the flower game that the gardener and winnower resulted in one outcome, and that became to be known as the vex. It’s not a species or race, but an inescapable aspect of existence itself. A universal pattern that subverts all other kinds of concepts into itself as it spreads. That’s the entire reason for the traveler; it’s the gardener manifest, after it interjected itself into “the game” to bend the rules and ensure there was a different outcome than the vex. The winnower followed suit to counter the gardener, thus the veil. The witness is just a zealot who found the traveler and the veil before anyone else was involved in their shenanigans.
@@bradymengel2473 that's interesting. Vex being basically an eraser or command alt delete for reality But I got a few questions: 1) Where in the flower game lore was the vex mention (it truly and genuinely intrigues me)? 2) if not sentient than how do the machines they use and constructs (buildings) derive from? Especially the network 3) (similar to 2) if again not sentinet...how come the sol divisive worshipped the black heart while others in the network refused to do so? Vex being the Primordial species is interesting because they manipulate time and are the living embodiment of schogier's cat but without the box They are truly an anomaly
@@ryanmann9842 the vex were referred to as the final shape/pattern. It’s alluded to being the vex where it says “the gardener became vexed” with the same occurring outcome. He couldn’t figure out a way to make any other possible outcome. Thus he became “vexed”. There is a biological component to the vex, but it came afterwards. As mentioned before, it starts as a pattern in “the game” look up what the flower game is to get a better sense of what i’m trying to say. The “pattern” or entity is difficult to accurately define. It’s almost as plausible to consider it an outcome, or rule, as it is to consider it a species or entity in existence. We’re fighting the rule; the outcome. As is the gardener. It’s not the “cmd alt dlt” either. It’s the finished product. That’s the gardener’s problem. It’s idea of a “finished product” for existence is an infinitely complex and changing world that never stays the same. What came to be known as the vex was a problem. Look up the meaning of the term “vexed”. Might help it make more sense. I think of it as a computer virus built into the firmware of existence. The computer itself needed a programmer’s outside assistance to be able to circumvent being completely re-written by the virus, as it does.
Chances are, especially with a minimal understanding of Quantum Physics, in order to communicate from a higher to a lower dimension: one would have to take on the literal "trappings" of that lower reality. I believe the Traveler and the Veil, in this story, this odyssey, are such trappings for what cannot be comprehended, transcendent of Guardian reality.
The Traveler/Gardener is a conduit distributing one force among many consciousnesses (guardians) - complexity and growth. The Veil/Winnower is a conduit merging many consciousnesses (the former species of The Witness) into a single force (the amalgamation that is now the singular Witness) - simplicity and consolidation. The final shape should implicitly be somewhere between the two - like stability and sustainability.
I guess. We know what the final shape is, have for a long time since we saw the end of time in the infinite forest. It's static, unchanging and essentially a heat death of the universe. Destruction of entropy.
I feel like we eventually find out the Big Bang in the destiny universe was the creation of the traveller and the veil attached together from nothing, and the garden game was these two both creating from the traveller side, and the veil simplifying things and wanting to bring them back to a singular point from which all things began. With the immense amount of power held closely together from these two at the beginning of time their “souls” were born and made them the entities they are. Similar to how the 9 are embodiments of paracausal power representing planets and celestial bodies but with less focused power. If the Winnower is an individual entity, I could see it being what originally held all of this paracausal power before the Destiny Big Bang and as the universe expanded and spread the paracausal powers to its inhabitants the original Winnower power decreased. As things are focused into a Final Shape - all of that paracausal power will flow back to Winnower.
It just popped in my head as a 1st thought when watching the witness describe how they became 1 entity after watching the witness abandon them most likely cause the traveler knew they were going to use the their new found powers of "darkness" on the traveler like a evil mad scientists doing sick inhumane experiments trying to perfect some crazy impossible or unattainable outcome. But when the Witness describes turning into that one being it soundes to me like it could be maybe the 3rd darkness classes power or some way of using said power bc each power has many variations and was to identify and use it.
If you notice on the front cover of the lore book there a nine points. Three points closer to the traveler, 5 points close to the Witness. One point that links them altogether.
If you're referencing the front cover of Unveiling I have been pointing that out to people since it released; I figured that the convergence point is probably Mars going by count and size. Mars obviously has access to the Black Garden, the Enclave, Time-Tears after being Taken, it's where humanity made contact with the Traveller.
Wasn't the disagreement that the Gardener wished the Flower Game didn't end in "the final shape" that repeated endlessly across the board? It wished to change the rules of the game and the Winnower didn't like that. The Gardener then inserted itself into the game to force the rules to change.
Haven't even watched the video yet and I just want to thank you for making this video. Been sitting here for the past week in my free time just trying to go back over all of it 1 more time. Bro this story is the most complex story that we can interact with that has ever been brought by humans. 20+ years in the making - so big that so many people that don't even play video games, let alone Halo, along with every person who has kept with their indulgence in Bungie lore that they know their plan for world domination, and we see their prophecy take shape as a dungeon, their teachings, and the specific wording of the last steps of world domination, of forcing Microsoft hand to join in with PlayStation... because they knew they had premeditated making of the keys, all to just in game lore take the metaphorical words of the suppression into the Sun... all to just blow my mind when they announced their new Marathon title.. Because, the big bad of all of the dimensions in the Bungie-verse is in the Sun and it gets freed as some of the failed timelines in that game... I honestly know so many books of Bungie Verse lore it is depressingly useless because I have no way to use it for anything. I would love to get in a chat room with the biggest Halo creators, and the couple biggest Destiny creators, and piece this story I am sure that at minimum took a small team of writers just as long as it's been, with life figured in 😅😂 love how well it plays on and pulls apart my senses and lies we tell ourselves about truth and civilization to maintain the stilts we could be on in a better, interactive, modern allegory to be either enjoyed wherever, to be enjoyed at whatever point you wish to zoom out to beautiful, as long as you don't let social media slog and want to be open hearted for it, just like it's always been for any shared literature
Some thoughts on the matter: I think it's most likely that the Veil is calling for "reunion", to anyone who bothers to listen - it was very likely once connected to the traveler, afterall, and the traveler is the one thing to which it is always connected. However, when _others_ listen in, without the context of "oh giant mycelium wants to reunite with big Ball", their minds (and bodies) get sucked up into a gruesome imitation of what the Veil actually yearns for, viz. the Witness' transformation, where what the Veil wants is for matter and mind to become connected again This would make sense! It would also make sense why these two vast beings got separated at some point! Considering how the traveler is constantly desirous of *running the fuck away,* we can deduce that it conceives of the reunion as an _actively bad thing_ - indeed, it only makes sense that the being which puts every effort into spreading independent and free life across the universe would probably find a reality where every stray thought can radically reshape the universe _somewhat_ objectionable. (Also, this might be the downfall of the Witness in Final Shape: the fact it's a hive mind with a single dominant ego doesn't much matter, when literally _one stray thought_ can completely change the outcome of the situation. It's very probable that during the raid, we'll be trying to put it off/interfering in its thoughts as the connection between itself, the Traveler, and the Veil, is established.) So I think it's reasonable to suggest that perhaps at some point along that original period where Veil and Traveler were one and the same, either the traveler itself OR one of its original creations willed the two beings apart, thus according to the wishes of the Big Ball In The Sky. What strikes me about the story of the gardener and the winnower is that winnowing is an _unnatural imposition_ on life - life does its own governance, thank you very much, and stepping in to shape it to your own will is both _dramatically unhealthy_ for the ecology and the ultimate show of hubris.
I mean, it's like the Chaos Gods, they are not really individuals as they are often portrayed. They are forces of a narrative, as much as I can decipher, a manifestation of common practice and belief that becomes its enforcer, and grants power and guidance to those who share the same or similar beliefs, and shapes them into the ideal form of that idea (Like Plato's Ideal Forms, to achieve perfection) and there are many artefacts that seem to overflow with power of their respective Chaos God. The conversations, I think, just make it easier to interpret the Winnower and Gardener, just as we use art to understand the inherent ascendancy of gods. The Traveler and Witness, to me, are Avatars *and* artefacts of their gods, not the gods themselves, all that remains to ask is who is speaking? Do these gods speak through them or are they just as silent as each other? Bungie may have setup a lot of mystery, but they don't really have much to play with.
I sort of get the impression that there were more than one traveler in the past. The witness defeated (for the lack of a better word) each one of them except for the one we have and is now the last remaining "piece" of the cosmic chess game going on between the gardener and winnower who are both separate entities but have their own champions or players. This whole light vs dark struggle has strong chess vibes, from the very obvious light vs dark imagery (think white vs black chess pieces) to the pyramids having lots of checkerboard patters and pieces (like the knight/horse statues).
Ahsa states that the Witness' people were their first victim which is strange unless the entity known as the Witness simply used them to create a body. The Veil is a non-physical entity, so what if the entity inside of it requires a vessel? Tricking the current vessel's people into becoming one?
I am starting to believe the goal of the witness is to merge with the traveler. Bringing the 2 pieces back to whole. Symbolically as bringing yin together with yang resulting in the peace symbol. The final shape of the Gardner and winnower, witness and traveler. The battle inside for who will have control in the end.
I disagree with the Unveiling being a religious text for the Witnesses, but rather for either new disciples, or for humanity, because unveiling mentions Oryx and the Cambrian explosion, both his lifetime and the period in earth’s history are Billions of years after the Witnesses lived, after Rhulk became a Diciple, and the fall of fundament
@@fangslore9988 I wouldn’t say all lies, that’s Savathûn’s department, and she was able to trick the Witness, but when has that stopped Bungie from reusing their character ideas?
@@lucaricci1987 savathun maybe the god of trickery and guile but she isn't the only one to use it i mean look at each of the disciples they all were led to belive that their own individual interpretations of the final shape was correct especially given Xivu Arath's interpretation of the final shape where the strongest entity is the one who has destroyed all others, and the witness' final shape is infact the opposite of that where all conflict ends and a weird imposed universal Utopia exists dictated to us by the Witness. ironically it is a admiral goal albeit one that is being perused in the worst way possible. the Witness is more like a Thanos type character in their motivations LMAO
Hmm the darkness and light makes me think of this. If you look at the darkness it Iis composed of items that promote form, the darkness creates - even to holding memories. Our light subclass now - solar , void and arc each are conductors but all have the power to destroy things, erase memories. What if we could combine arc with strand we could animate anything. What if we could add form to void, with stasis, arc or solar we’d have so many unique items for destruction - yet used right can be used for good. This is where the line is blurred because the subclass merging is just the smaller part of the concept as you can create design and destroy to no bounds - chaotic potential if all could be merged.naturally two elements brought together in chemistry must close out as a neutral base ( salt and water respectively). The cosmic force that is the neutral base is the only thing that can operate the light and dark? Who is it ? Idk
good theory, but that scar was probably there because that’s where the massive Shard of the Traveler in the EDZ was before it fell off during the Collapse.
@@swirlyskyshock1155 If Savathun hid the Veil that was attached to the Traveler, I'd safely assume that the shard in the EDZ could have been where the Veil was affixed, if it was phyically attached, that is. So it doesn't necessarily have to be in conflict.
Interesting idea. But would that really work scale-wise? The Traveller is huge, expanding beyond the borders of the Last City. In contrast, the Veil fits into a building on Neptune. A massive building, granted, but a building nonetheless.
Did we forget about the anamoly? It made researchers go mentally mad. We still don't know what this is do we? I mean obviously it has something to do with the veil but how and why.
I think the witness wants to bind all conscious beings into a single entity like itself - the final shape being the amalgam of all minds, bound together against their wills, writhing in perpetuity and fighting in vain for independence. The final shape could be the return of "primordial chaos" - an endless soup of collective consciousness, sharing all peperspectives and pain. This primordial chaos could just be the darkness as a force trying to replicate itself.
Pretty sure gardener resides in the pale heart, inside the traveler. The winnower resides in the deep, the opposite realm inside the veil. Traveler and veil are two parts of one object seperatwd when they had their argument long ago. Pretty sure well see both of them in final shape
An interesting idea is that the Traveler is a silent god that enacts the will of the primordial gardener, The pyramids were long thought to be the version of the Traveler for the primordial Winnower, but no, they are just instruments of the Witness. What if the Veil is the true instrument of the Winnower, and seeks to lead civilizations to unify all life in the universe to gestalt beings like Witness as the final shape? Much like the Traveler, the Veil travels through space "elevating" civilizations to achieve it's ultimate goal. And the Witness is completely misunderstanding it's purpose.
If the Veil was originally part of the Traveler, and these two parts connected and the pale heart is the original flower game, that would also explain why the Traveler looks like a part was ripped from it, and the veil looks like half of it is a shell. The Veil is REALLY small though...
@reedwojo7858 I thought the same thing, the Veil is so much smaller than the Traveler. trying to picture how they might look united is kinda ridiculous. maybe the "roots" of the Veil fit into that remaining "broken" area in the Traveler? then maybe the other half of it changes shape/gets larger/turns into a flower? I've no idea, but the size difference is a problem... 🤔
The Vex And The Witness Have One Thing In Common They Are one singular entity. The Witness Are Many Put Into One And The Vex Are One Split Into Many. Remember The Vex Are The Original Final Shape From The Previous garden game
I don't get now how the witnesses species used the veil to merge themselves long ago and then recently fight the guardians to find it. Did they used the veil and then lose the veil? Maybe.
I don’t think they used the veil per se but the knowledge they gained about the darkness from studying the veil. Kind of like how they gained knowledge of the light by studying the traveler. Whatever that means… ha. I think it’s like how humanity gained various knowledge of how to do various light powers by mediating or something. I forget who, but they manifested the first golden gun though some knowledge they gained through the light. The witness people gained the ability to merge themselves into the current form, the witness through the darkness, not necessarily the veil itself. If that makes sense. They lost the veil due to savy stealing it and hiding it on Neptune. She didn’t like what the witness had in mind for the final shape and so she tricked the witness, etc I’m assuming the witness had the veil in tow when they were chasing after the traveller.
Maybe we're looking at the dark and light aspects of the Destiny universe as opposites when we should see them as halves of the same process, same cycle. For a garden to thrive, seeds must be planted, what grows from seeds, will bear fruit, fruit will in its turn produce seeds, will die, and become nutrients for the fruit of the future. The gardener is the one that usually helps with the process, start to end, is it not?
The Winnower is The Veil and the Gardener is The Traveller. I think it was The Veil communicating with the scientists on Neptune. The Witness would have come for The Veil if it was speaking through it. The Veil could have tried to create another Wittness by using humanity after The Black Fleet was somehow banished to dark space.
A reference was once made to "the shapeless one" as a voice from the darkness. Was this scrapped? Was it an interpretation of the veil? Or is it a yet unseen antagonist that influenced the precursors as well as Maya and her team? Is the veil simply an instrument of this yet unseen antagonist?
@@ontos8914My only issue with this is that the precursors heard the same voices that the neomuna researchers heard, at a time before the precursors were combined into the Witness.
I've always had theory of the darkness. Seeing it a hierarchy of power. I've studied the lore for years and names that have great power are the Gardener and the Winnower. For the darkness, this hierarchy revolves around the Winnower. This being would be at the top of the pyramid. This further descends into the areas below. The Witness is really a hand of the Winnower. The other I theorize could be Taox given she was the one who set forth the chain of events creating the Hive. Once most loyal subject of the Osmium King to being the one to slay him. Potentially enacted from the influence of the Winnower. As for the hierarchy, The Winnower at the top, its hands Taox and The Witness under it, both with their respective disciple(s). Taox's disciple being Xivu and the Witness's being Rhulk, Nezerac, and Calus (of course dead). A theory is once we've eliminated them, the Winnower will finally be revealed.
Taox was likely an agent of the Gardener considering she fled to the species which had Gardener given golden ages, the sisters alone like Oryx and Savathûn may have been direct Diciples of the Winnower though as he says “my man Oryx”, and Oryx was one of the strongest practitioners of the sword logic, a concept which transcends the following of light and dark as the lucent hive and Eris also practiced it
the unveiling lore book is as truthful as truth to power its lies created to win the loyalty of the guardians the witness being separate from the darkness and the darkness being the power of the mind means that it debunks the unveiling lore book because both light and darkness are a part of life
I never thought about this but it actually makes sense. If the Witness is just an entire civilization combined into one being, then it cant be the Winnower. And considering that the Traveler is the representive of light (or rather light itself) there also has to be a darkness being (aka the Winnower)
@@ontos8914 Ye, I know what they are talking about. I just think that the Gardener is its own entity. Not the Witness. Also, not trying to convince you btw.
I dont really think Destiny’s story makes sense anymore. The darkness was different in D1, but now it’s no longer some big god but some cultists that is obsessed with the traveler. Darkness is now power of the mind instead of being something evil and feared. Also how is the Traveler always running away from the Witness when it’s mortal and the Traveler is pretty much a god. I think Bungie makes the story up from the draw of a hat. (Pulls paper) “okay guys, Crow kills Cayde 6 again.”
@@ontos8914 he/she/it is mortal compared to the traveler. The traveler if it wanted to, could have defeated the witness if it wanted too but it’s not apart of its nature. As for the darkness in D1, it was a lot more frightening than what we got here. Bungie has been trying to salvage Destiny’s story since they burned the original story line months before D1 release and have been poorly winging it since. Not gonna lie they have a banger lore here and there but over all it’s been a down hill run.
Whatever the Winnower is, it and the Gardner predate the Witness. So if it’s an actual entity and not simply a concept then they have to be separate things.
No, that would be just the traveler. The traveler is everything physical, according to Osiris. Which, in-term, means that the darkness is everything non-physical. Control (stasis) is non-physical. “Web of all existence” (strand) is also non-physical, as it’s purely conceptual. Whereas, say, Temperature (solar) is physical Gravity (void) is physical Energy (Arc) is physical What I mean by “Physical” here, is perceivable, and within our plane of existence. The concept of control and artificial order, for example, is not a real thing, therefore, it’s non-physical, and classed as the darkness.
I don’t get the problem tho? It’s very easy to see that it’s speaking of both veil and the traveler and yes witness is the witness it’s probably part of veil
I don’t think it’s talked enough how the traveler was just stumbled upon by the witnesse’s people. How did it get there? There must be a creator behind it since it’s mechanical to a certain extent. So who made it?
For better or worse, I think they’ve dropped the concept of primordial entities existing before the Universe. Really seems like they’ve just decided to go with the easier thing to understand with the Witness.
Maybe the gardener is also the Winnower. And the whole creation of the universe is just a splitt. So traveler and veil was also created when this happen. And this God just want to be one again. That might be the true final shape. The veil remembers what was before...
@@Seeker_420 what i mean is that the Witness wanted to use lies and trickery to make the guardians turn against the Traveler by making everything the traveler's fault by painting everything in the lens of the flower game and proposing the shape that was always supposed to come about in the flower game was always what the "final shape" was supposed to be and the traveler was the one who upset the shape of what was supposed to be by becoming a part of the game. but this is debunked when the witness's origins were revealed in season of the deep. which means the Unveiling lore book is simply truth to power 2.0
@@fangslore9988 Yea i know what you mean. I also didnt believe anymore in the metaphor of the flowergame. Since i learnd infos about the veil during light Fall. That is what i meant. The black and white thinking. Good and evil is something from the witness. The traveler is not good as the veil is not evil. They are just omnipresents forces. And i believe this Force is one force like i said. Its something what Osiris discover. When he studied the veil. This is what i meant. I didnt spoke about what we still know or believe
@@Seeker_420 and i also think they're raw fundamental forces that already existed i think they're more like infinity stones of the mcu than anything else
The Unveiling isnt being narrated by the Witness. Since the Witness refers to itself in the Plural always. The being in the Unveiling lore refers to itself in the First Person. As it is the First Knife metaphorically.
Well didn't they scrap the concept of Alis Li (The Awoken Lady shown in the Concept Art at 15:25 that is also supposed to represent the Veiled Statue's in the DSC and BG ect, In the Original Story of Destiny 1 & 2 since this Concept Art has been out for a decade) being the Awoken representative (Counterpart to the Witness) of the Gardener just like the Witness is to the Winnower hence why the Statue has a Veil around it as a Symbolism of The Darkness suppressing the Light, the scrapped Concept that had a Story of Alis Li being the true Firstborn Awoken Queen and way stronger than Mara Sov could ever be even on par with the Witness, with Alis Li and the Exo Stranger (Elsie Bray) being best friends with Alis Li later sacrificing herself to stop the 3rd Collapse from happening which made Elsie Bray travel to a different timeline to find one where we had a chance of changing the outcome of this Conflict (our timeline) but turned that Original Story upside down because they fired the Writer because of Dispute not sure the name but he was around since Halo. As far as I know they used to have a scan-patrol in the Dreaming City from Shuro Chi where once you scanned the Lense Glass in the Spine of Keres she would mentioned Alis Li before which has been now replaced and completely removed from the game, damn shame. Fun Fact: The Awoken Ladym (Alis Li) standing in front of the Traveler opened up would later be used in the Lightfall Campaign where the Traveler shoots at the Witness's Pyramid Ship and can see a similar pattern forming on the Traveler before he shoots out his Beam of Light.
To my knowledge and understanding to grasp everything under the destiny lore I think the witness is doing everything under their own selfish belief, because if light and darkness is a force that balanced life and deaththroughout the universe. why go against that what more do you want to understand?
Ahhhh ok, I can’t lie the state of destiny isn’t in the best spot but I figure it’ll get better with the final shape because it seems like the have BOLD plans and not just plain ol same old. Also I can’t wait to see how we manage to defeat the witness
@@albertbenejan9309I hope in the raid the witness changes forms throughout. It would be so cool to see whatever calus saw when he witness trapped him in that glass
I feel like the witness is the winnower since in that cutscene it says something like, they became the salvation they craved. Like surely that means they wanted a winnower to stop the traveller so they made themselves into the winnower
I know power does not equal scale; but it’s visually disconcerting to equal the Traveler and the Veil. When the Traveler is the size of a small moon and the Veil looks like it’s housed in a building that would hold a space shuttle. Just sayin’
@@bullrun2772isn't that the point of lore people is to simplify it so everyone is on the same page it won't help to make a lore video that won't make sense
@@Catticombs lol you got be joking did not see the other dudes comments like there talking about that one lore book that seems to be an parable but whatever
@@ispgravy4233 like what I’m just simple saying you act like you know the truth but you don’t it’s your truth nothing else is kinda of dumb also G ain’t bad but it’s you know I have criticism better than half of these people
I cannot even begin to describe how disappointed I would be if that initial concept art of what the Traveler's "human form" is what ends up being the final version. I wanna see something WILD like those "biblically-accurate angel" memes! I want to take one look at it and see that it is definitely not human! The one solid thing Bungie has left is their writers. I REALLY hope the Traveller/Garderner doesnt look like a freaking Greek god. Ugh. Boring as hell!
The whole thing about Unveiling being told by the Witness and is unreliable that Bungie is shoving down our throats is so stupid. LET ME MAKE THAT DECISION. And besides, even if I accept that the Witness told it, there aren’t’ lies. It’s consistent with what the Witness believes. The Light (sky) is death. Guardians revive over and over but that means we die over and over. That’s shown to have lasting trauma as shown in the Jade Rabbit gun’s lore.
I think the final shape is the vex. I think we’ll have to assimilate like the witness did and fight as a final shape of our own making, destroying the light and the darkness. We’ll travel through time the way Elsie travels through universes, we can assimilate maya like we did to ourselves, and we can’t use dark or light because we destroy them in the end of the future, which would technically be our past.
If you take it as Witness propaganda, along with the story of Ishtar and Dr. Sunderesh, you could possibly speculate that maybe the witness was their Dr. Sunderesh, and it was not in fact the whole species who consented to the merging. It might have been a small group or individual who forced it's views upon the species. "Taking" them if you will.
The only reason this game is still going is because of the story yourself and byff tell. If bungie were that good at storytelling like everyone claims it wouldn't take dedicated youtubers to narrate and flush out choppy game. GG
Odd thing is the only person we know the Traveller to have spoken directly to is Rhulk.
The Speaker
@@gabrielmcandrew3487 the speaker admitted the traveler doesnt communicate with him in red war
@sxnniibxnnii2492 Actually he lied about that. The Traveler did speak with him. It even told him about The Red Legion coming but he ignored it because he didn't want cause unnecessary panic. Yeah a bad move on his part.
Don't forget the Hawkmoon Mission. The traveller didn't directly speak to Crow but it definitely tried to communicate something.
You’re forgetting the most important time the Traveler spoke, when she spoke to us in Forsaken when we get the third subclass tree
I think it’s interesting the the prophecies from Curse of Osiris basically told us about this back in 2017
Two siblings cleaved by time and space, reflections never found alone, ( the traveler and the veil )
The ending of the eldritch race-a path long seen but never known.
( the witnesses race becoming one and seeking the final shape )
Cant wait to fight cabal on the home planet of these gods lmao
Whether We Wanted It Or Not, We've Stepped Into War With The Cabal On the Realm of the Gods.
Why create outrage
@@bullrun2772He's right tho
@@InsertSomethingStupid2002 okay back up your point here/show evidence
@@bullrun2772 Roots Of Nightmares
The real final shape: UA-cam lore
The final lore if you will
Yeah Bungie is and it’s lazy if that makes sense
Nah...
It's just gonna be Taniks again.
legit lols. bungie doesnt have shit on the youtube lore.
I always think about the aspect of Unveiling where the gardener and winnower agree to enter the flower game / universe to make their case from inside the game.
My old guess was that the gardener tricked the winnower into the universe and remained outside. The Traveler being the proxy, not the gardener itself.
That at least explained the nature of the chase and the animosity. The Witness (to this deception) needs to access the Traveler in order to exit the universe and confront the gardener.
The Traveler isn't sentient. It's a bridge. Much like a light version of Oryx's Dreadnaught. It's the only way to access the gardener. This implied a lot of interesting ideas about a Witness Raid where we're actually the adds that defend the gardener from The Witness's raid on the Traveler. That would make a nice inversion of our ususal gameplay... especially my idea that the only sufficiently epic encounter would require three raid teams working in concert.
Another old idea of mine was that The Veil was the piece of The Traveler that was used to make the Ghosts. The mote of darkness inside the light that reflects the duality of a yin-yang.
They're old ideas, but I liked them.
I like this idea but i have some points that are just confusing.
If the Witness had to access the Traveler to get out of the universe/„game“ why didnt he try it during the collapse when it attacked the traveler the first time?
Didnt he have the veil to create the portal or like why didnt he do it back then?
I like the idea of a reversed raid. Would at least be something different and new. Hope Bungie does something like this😉
@mBo_Beats Savathun betrayed the Witness and hid the Veil. But where the Veil was before that isn't clear.
That's why I liked the idea of the Veil being a part of the Traveller. Savathun secured it during the collapse and immediately betrayed the Witness.
Something like that, but I'm no expert.
@@khmr33 It was most likely aboard Nezarec's ship, given Savathûn killed him during the onset of the Collapse and hid his Ship beneath the Moons surface.
I suspected the Veil itself to be Ahsa's left eye, removed from her during her fight with Nezarec trying to shield the Traveller from his assault.
Though it's more likely I'm wrong about it being her left eye, given there is still a significant portion of damage to the Traveller's shell that the root like structure of the Veil looks to mirror.
It's possible that they were a single entity at one point, with those "Roots" enveloping the spherical structure of the Traveller itself.
Essentially when looking at Asher's Vex Simulated analysis of the Veil, those "Roots" extend around an empty space where a spherical structure would sit comfortably.
The Traveller itself would likely sprout it's own "Roots" to entwine with the Veil's and flow around the surface of the Veil kn turn.
It's possible that from the flat portion of the Veil, the harmonious union of Light & Dark "Roots" would grow a perfect Tree of Silver Wings.
If looked at side on like we do with Asher's projections of Veil, it ould look like an incomplete infinity symbol. A broken sideways 8 with potentially infinite branches of the Tree of Silverwings growing from the broken portion Indefinitely.
A quantum entanglement of Paracausality, where everything than has, does & could exist, while also not existing simultaneously for an eternal moment.
Ultimately forming the foundation of the Garden before time and reality.
The Gardener would likely to avoid that fate, returning to that perpetural state of predictable outcomes.
No wonder the Traveller is always fleeting from those whom wish to return everything to that state, or use the combined forces of Light & Dark for something far worse in the case of the Witness.
@@khmr33 Sorry for the double reply, I forgot to mention something.
It seems as though the The Witness itself was not present for the Collapse. Nezarec appears to have been the highest ranking among the force that caused the Collapse.
Savathûn & her Brood appear to have been the primary enemy troops used in the assault.
Rhulk was technically not present as he has been stationed within Savathûn's Throne World for some time.
During the chaos of war, Savathûn was able to backstab (Literally) Nezarec and decieve everyone as to both the whereabouts of the Veil, Nezarec himself and Nezarec's ship.
Likely pinning the betrayal on him, probably claiming he escaped during Savathûn's assault to Subdue the Traveller to go terrorise other civilisations. Nezarec did enjoy and gain power from inflicting pain and terror upon worlds after all.
Him leaving Savathûn to secure the Traveller and subdue Humanity's attempts at resistance while he left to inflict terror and pain upon others is not an unreasonable claim.
With Rhulk there to watch her in her Throne Wolrd and Crota's descendants Brood arriving to reinforce their hold over Sol would help reasssure The Witness that she wouldn't be able to enact any plans or scheme's whilst The Witness pursued the allegedly AWOL Nezarec with the majority of the Black Fleet.
Encouraging the Sol Divisive's attempts to replicate the Veil with the Black Heart ended up at least buying more time for the Witness's search for the wayward Disciple that absconded with the Veil.
Though Imperfect, it allowed the Witness to commune with the Sol Divisive and more importantly prevented the Traveller from healing itself.
Savathûn's lie that was cloaked in an even more clever deception worked for the most part.
The only variable that was never taken into account by Savathûn or the Witness was the appearance of the Risen, whom eventually formed into the Guardians to defend what remained of humanity.
Which only ment Savathûn needed to incorporate us into her plans, without arousing the suspicion of the others.
To a degree, she succeeded well beyond her initial plans but also failed to accomplish many of her major goals.
The traveller as stated is the master of the physical realm. The veil is the master of the conceptual space and logic. The Witness was created with both a traveller and the veil there. They said they sought the veil to understand the traveller and in turn used the will of the veil to shape the powers of the traveller to combine them. The traveller then fled. This may have been the schism of ideology. Allowing a species to have mastery and control over powers to warp the universe and themselves. The traveller just allows for unguided progress. It creates the means. The veil allows for control. It is a shaping tool to decide what the means are. And right now with the two halves apart. The traveller is like a mouth with no voice. And the veil is a screaming voice with no mouth. You even see these reflections on their dominions with the subclasses. The light subclasses had you reach out into the physical to harness. Whereas the darkness classes had you pass mental blocks and ideology restrictions to reveal.
thats a really good explanation
I have an unfortunate hunch that the final shape story will disappoint, and a lot of things will go unaddressed and unexplained because it focuses so much on Cayde coming back and trying to pull on the nostalgia strings
Probably
Things remaining unadressed and unexplained is one of my main concerns as well. Really hope we do get some answers and I also hope those answers won't ruin anything like in Mass Effect 3.
If anything, Destiny's lore is insanely deep and interesting each time it gets updated.
Ah a new video by Evaze, I needed a new hit of some Destiny Lore
My Witness
oh my god they got UA-cam in the Pale Heart
I believe The Witness to be “The First Knife” found in the hand of the Winnower in the Garden when they began to disagree.
he's not, the Witness origin Ahsa video disapprove this.
You sir, are correct thanks to the raid completion.
I don’t see how the Precursors/Witness can be the Winnower. The Unveiling describes the Traveler and Winnower as co-eternal. But the Witness came into being because of the Traveler’s arrival and its refusal to communicate with the Precursors. That would mean that the Witness as the Winnower is not eternal, which conflicts with what we know from the Unveiling.
The gardener and the winnower are just religious concepts
15:45 .. not sure if its just me but i get knull vibes from marvel here. Just needs the all black necrosword lol
What if this is Savathun's plan after all. Turn humanity into a light equivalent of the Witness to combat the Witness.
If that's the case, there definitely needs to be an explanation of (1)how Savathun traveled alongside the Witness to Humanity's Collapse. (2)How she sneaked the Veil past the entire black Fleet and hid it on Neptune. (3) And where was the Witness the entire time of the Collapse to the end of Season of the Seraph?
The only one that needs answering is 3 and maybe 1 in root of nightmares we got answer to 2 she killed nezarec and “whisked the veil away to neptune” and number 1 doesnt need to be explained lol we know savathun was a disciple so thats the answer to 1 he clearly didnt see her trickery and didnt predcit it
@@GKelpywhich is quite surprising considering how powerful the witness is, how did it not see her deceit
she had been chasing the traveller and whirl winding planets with him for tens of thousands of years probably@@dream8870
@@dream8870 she is really good with her tricks tho lmao
Oh I heard precursors and thought halo flood precursors
Jak and Daxter came to mind for me, then Halo.
Imagine if the Gardener and Winnower are precursors that created their own universe (Destiny), the starhorse/30th anniversary pack connects Halo, Marathon, and Destiny in the paraverse
The story needs a gardener reveal for a satisfying conclusion. We know the gardener and winnower were at one point meant to be real entities they need to pay off the lore that has been set up. The witness and veil kind of derailed the light/dark story.
My collectors edition comes in March, so excited. Another day, another video keep it coming Evaze💖
Here's an odd idea: when solanne mentioned schism. My brain immediately thought of this:
The Witness and the Vex are the same people but are taking separate pathes to the final shape.
Both are hiveminds. Both believe in only one universal standard.
So think of the Witness as the orthodox/traditionalist sect where they believe in reuniting their gods; the answer will reveal itself. The Gardener and Widower story is basically a destiny version of the bible.
The vex, respectively, would be the revolutionary/heretical/Atheist. They legit embraced becoming bacteria (if I'll be including your notion of the widower preferring simplicity) to further merge into one being. The goal is to ensure that the timeline results in one space where the vex rule beneath an eternal darkness. As well, flee from the darkness and any Witness faction, because I bet they'll be purged. Somewhat like how religious institutions will stamp out any semblance of opposition to the message.
Don't know just a brief idea built from this video
This is definitely an interesting take. I think and have thought for a while that a lot of things connect to the Bible. Especially the witness forming from multiple people/souls. In the Bible that happens when more than 1000 demons forge to what’s known as a “Legion”.
Vex aren’t sentient. Not even alive, really. They’re also primordial. Every variation of the flower game that the gardener and winnower resulted in one outcome, and that became to be known as the vex. It’s not a species or race, but an inescapable aspect of existence itself. A universal pattern that subverts all other kinds of concepts into itself as it spreads. That’s the entire reason for the traveler; it’s the gardener manifest, after it interjected itself into “the game” to bend the rules and ensure there was a different outcome than the vex. The winnower followed suit to counter the gardener, thus the veil. The witness is just a zealot who found the traveler and the veil before anyone else was involved in their shenanigans.
@@bradymengel2473 that's interesting. Vex being basically an eraser or command alt delete for reality
But I got a few questions:
1) Where in the flower game lore was the vex mention (it truly and genuinely intrigues me)?
2) if not sentient than how do the machines they use and constructs (buildings) derive from? Especially the network
3) (similar to 2) if again not sentinet...how come the sol divisive worshipped the black heart while others in the network refused to do so?
Vex being the Primordial species is interesting because they manipulate time and are the living embodiment of schogier's cat but without the box
They are truly an anomaly
@@bradymengel2473this is spot on I think. Great post
@@ryanmann9842 the vex were referred to as the final shape/pattern. It’s alluded to being the vex where it says “the gardener became vexed” with the same occurring outcome. He couldn’t figure out a way to make any other possible outcome. Thus he became “vexed”. There is a biological component to the vex, but it came afterwards. As mentioned before, it starts as a pattern in “the game” look up what the flower game is to get a better sense of what i’m trying to say. The “pattern” or entity is difficult to accurately define. It’s almost as plausible to consider it an outcome, or rule, as it is to consider it a species or entity in existence. We’re fighting the rule; the outcome. As is the gardener. It’s not the “cmd alt dlt” either. It’s the finished product. That’s the gardener’s problem. It’s idea of a “finished product” for existence is an infinitely complex and changing world that never stays the same. What came to be known as the vex was a problem. Look up the meaning of the term “vexed”. Might help it make more sense. I think of it as a computer virus built into the firmware of existence. The computer itself needed a programmer’s outside assistance to be able to circumvent being completely re-written by the virus, as it does.
Chances are, especially with a minimal understanding of Quantum Physics, in order to communicate from a higher to a lower dimension: one would have to take on the literal "trappings" of that lower reality. I believe the Traveler and the Veil, in this story, this odyssey, are such trappings for what cannot be comprehended, transcendent of Guardian reality.
The Traveler/Gardener is a conduit distributing one force among many consciousnesses (guardians) - complexity and growth. The Veil/Winnower is a conduit merging many consciousnesses (the former species of The Witness) into a single force (the amalgamation that is now the singular Witness) - simplicity and consolidation. The final shape should implicitly be somewhere between the two - like stability and sustainability.
I guess. We know what the final shape is, have for a long time since we saw the end of time in the infinite forest.
It's static, unchanging and essentially a heat death of the universe. Destruction of entropy.
I feel like we eventually find out the Big Bang in the destiny universe was the creation of the traveller and the veil attached together from nothing, and the garden game was these two both creating from the traveller side, and the veil simplifying things and wanting to bring them back to a singular point from which all things began.
With the immense amount of power held closely together from these two at the beginning of time their “souls” were born and made them the entities they are. Similar to how the 9 are embodiments of paracausal power representing planets and celestial bodies but with less focused power.
If the Winnower is an individual entity, I could see it being what originally held all of this paracausal power before the Destiny Big Bang and as the universe expanded and spread the paracausal powers to its inhabitants the original Winnower power decreased. As things are focused into a Final Shape - all of that paracausal power will flow back to Winnower.
It just popped in my head as a 1st thought when watching the witness describe how they became 1 entity after watching the witness abandon them most likely cause the traveler knew they were going to use the their new found powers of "darkness" on the traveler like a evil mad scientists doing sick inhumane experiments trying to perfect some crazy impossible or unattainable outcome. But when the Witness describes turning into that one being it soundes to me like it could be maybe the 3rd darkness classes power or some way of using said power bc each power has many variations and was to identify and use it.
If you notice on the front cover of the lore book there a nine points. Three points closer to the traveler, 5 points close to the Witness. One point that links them altogether.
If you're referencing the front cover of Unveiling I have been pointing that out to people since it released; I figured that the convergence point is probably Mars going by count and size. Mars obviously has access to the Black Garden, the Enclave, Time-Tears after being Taken, it's where humanity made contact with the Traveller.
The nine definitely have something to do with the creation of the traveler and veil. I think we are just in a cosmic playground of the nine.
Wasn't the disagreement that the Gardener wished the Flower Game didn't end in "the final shape" that repeated endlessly across the board? It wished to change the rules of the game and the Winnower didn't like that. The Gardener then inserted itself into the game to force the rules to change.
That’s what the witness says
Haven't even watched the video yet and I just want to thank you for making this video. Been sitting here for the past week in my free time just trying to go back over all of it 1 more time. Bro this story is the most complex story that we can interact with that has ever been brought by humans. 20+ years in the making - so big that so many people that don't even play video games, let alone Halo, along with every person who has kept with their indulgence in Bungie lore that they know their plan for world domination, and we see their prophecy take shape as a dungeon, their teachings, and the specific wording of the last steps of world domination, of forcing Microsoft hand to join in with PlayStation... because they knew they had premeditated making of the keys, all to just in game lore take the metaphorical words of the suppression into the Sun... all to just blow my mind when they announced their new Marathon title.. Because, the big bad of all of the dimensions in the Bungie-verse is in the Sun and it gets freed as some of the failed timelines in that game... I honestly know so many books of Bungie Verse lore it is depressingly useless because I have no way to use it for anything. I would love to get in a chat room with the biggest Halo creators, and the couple biggest Destiny creators, and piece this story I am sure that at minimum took a small team of writers just as long as it's been, with life figured in 😅😂 love how well it plays on and pulls apart my senses and lies we tell ourselves about truth and civilization to maintain the stilts we could be on in a better, interactive, modern allegory to be either enjoyed wherever, to be enjoyed at whatever point you wish to zoom out to beautiful, as long as you don't let social media slog and want to be open hearted for it, just like it's always been for any shared literature
Some thoughts on the matter:
I think it's most likely that the Veil is calling for "reunion", to anyone who bothers to listen - it was very likely once connected to the traveler, afterall, and the traveler is the one thing to which it is always connected. However, when _others_ listen in, without the context of "oh giant mycelium wants to reunite with big Ball", their minds (and bodies) get sucked up into a gruesome imitation of what the Veil actually yearns for, viz. the Witness' transformation, where what the Veil wants is for matter and mind to become connected again
This would make sense! It would also make sense why these two vast beings got separated at some point! Considering how the traveler is constantly desirous of *running the fuck away,* we can deduce that it conceives of the reunion as an _actively bad thing_ - indeed, it only makes sense that the being which puts every effort into spreading independent and free life across the universe would probably find a reality where every stray thought can radically reshape the universe _somewhat_ objectionable.
(Also, this might be the downfall of the Witness in Final Shape: the fact it's a hive mind with a single dominant ego doesn't much matter, when literally _one stray thought_ can completely change the outcome of the situation. It's very probable that during the raid, we'll be trying to put it off/interfering in its thoughts as the connection between itself, the Traveler, and the Veil, is established.)
So I think it's reasonable to suggest that perhaps at some point along that original period where Veil and Traveler were one and the same, either the traveler itself OR one of its original creations willed the two beings apart, thus according to the wishes of the Big Ball In The Sky.
What strikes me about the story of the gardener and the winnower is that winnowing is an _unnatural imposition_ on life - life does its own governance, thank you very much, and stepping in to shape it to your own will is both _dramatically unhealthy_ for the ecology and the ultimate show of hubris.
I mean, it's like the Chaos Gods, they are not really individuals as they are often portrayed. They are forces of a narrative, as much as I can decipher, a manifestation of common practice and belief that becomes its enforcer, and grants power and guidance to those who share the same or similar beliefs, and shapes them into the ideal form of that idea (Like Plato's Ideal Forms, to achieve perfection) and there are many artefacts that seem to overflow with power of their respective Chaos God.
The conversations, I think, just make it easier to interpret the Winnower and Gardener, just as we use art to understand the inherent ascendancy of gods. The Traveler and Witness, to me, are Avatars *and* artefacts of their gods, not the gods themselves, all that remains to ask is who is speaking? Do these gods speak through them or are they just as silent as each other? Bungie may have setup a lot of mystery, but they don't really have much to play with.
I sort of get the impression that there were more than one traveler in the past. The witness defeated (for the lack of a better word) each one of them except for the one we have and is now the last remaining "piece" of the cosmic chess game going on between the gardener and winnower who are both separate entities but have their own champions or players. This whole light vs dark struggle has strong chess vibes, from the very obvious light vs dark imagery (think white vs black chess pieces) to the pyramids having lots of checkerboard patters and pieces (like the knight/horse statues).
I just wonder if the veil is the skin of the traveler, like something pulled it off revealing the machine inside
Ahsa states that the Witness' people were their first victim which is strange unless the entity known as the Witness simply used them to create a body. The Veil is a non-physical entity, so what if the entity inside of it requires a vessel? Tricking the current vessel's people into becoming one?
the witness' people were the witness' first victim by merging every one of their race into one body they killed their entire race
All of this happening, all the while the Nine are just biding their time lol
I am starting to believe the goal of the witness is to merge with the traveler. Bringing the 2 pieces back to whole. Symbolically as bringing yin together with yang resulting in the peace symbol. The final shape of the Gardner and winnower, witness and traveler. The battle inside for who will have control in the end.
I disagree with the Unveiling being a religious text for the Witnesses, but rather for either new disciples, or for humanity, because unveiling mentions Oryx and the Cambrian explosion, both his lifetime and the period in earth’s history are Billions of years after the Witnesses lived, after Rhulk became a Diciple, and the fall of fundament
unveiling lore book is like truth to power it is all lies as the witness is also full of guile and trickery
@@fangslore9988 I wouldn’t say all lies, that’s Savathûn’s department, and she was able to trick the Witness, but when has that stopped Bungie from reusing their character ideas?
@@lucaricci1987 savathun maybe the god of trickery and guile but she isn't the only one to use it i mean look at each of the disciples they all were led to belive that their own individual interpretations of the final shape was correct especially given Xivu Arath's interpretation of the final shape where the strongest entity is the one who has destroyed all others, and the witness' final shape is infact the opposite of that where all conflict ends and a weird imposed universal Utopia exists dictated to us by the Witness. ironically it is a admiral goal albeit one that is being perused in the worst way possible. the Witness is more like a Thanos type character in their motivations LMAO
yippieeeee new viddddd!!
Hmm the darkness and light makes me think of this. If you look at the darkness it Iis composed of items that promote form, the darkness creates - even to holding memories. Our light subclass now - solar , void and arc each are conductors but all have the power to destroy things, erase memories. What if we could combine arc with strand we could animate anything. What if we could add form to void, with stasis, arc or solar we’d have so many unique items for destruction - yet used right can be used for good. This is where the line is blurred because the subclass merging is just the smaller part of the concept as you can create design and destroy to no bounds - chaotic potential if all could be merged.naturally two elements brought together in chemistry must close out as a neutral base ( salt and water respectively). The cosmic force that is the neutral base is the only thing that can operate the light and dark? Who is it ? Idk
Y'all remember D1 traveler had the roots shaped scar on the bottom, what if that's where the veils root were attached previously
good theory, but that scar was probably there because that’s where the massive Shard of the Traveler in the EDZ was before it fell off during the Collapse.
@@swirlyskyshock1155 If Savathun hid the Veil that was attached to the Traveler, I'd safely assume that the shard in the EDZ could have been where the Veil was affixed, if it was phyically attached, that is.
So it doesn't necessarily have to be in conflict.
Interesting idea. But would that really work scale-wise? The Traveller is huge, expanding beyond the borders of the Last City. In contrast, the Veil fits into a building on Neptune. A massive building, granted, but a building nonetheless.
You just have to look at the stories of the old Bungie games to get the answers.
Did we forget about the anamoly? It made researchers go mentally mad. We still don't know what this is do we? I mean obviously it has something to do with the veil but how and why.
Oh yeah we know what it is it’s the same as the orb we get at the end of shadowkeep
I think the witness wants to bind all conscious beings into a single entity like itself - the final shape being the amalgam of all minds, bound together against their wills, writhing in perpetuity and fighting in vain for independence. The final shape could be the return of "primordial chaos" - an endless soup of collective consciousness, sharing all peperspectives and pain. This primordial chaos could just be the darkness as a force trying to replicate itself.
Pretty sure gardener resides in the pale heart, inside the traveler. The winnower resides in the deep, the opposite realm inside the veil. Traveler and veil are two parts of one object seperatwd when they had their argument long ago. Pretty sure well see both of them in final shape
An interesting idea is that the Traveler is a silent god that enacts the will of the primordial gardener, The pyramids were long thought to be the version of the Traveler for the primordial Winnower, but no, they are just instruments of the Witness.
What if the Veil is the true instrument of the Winnower, and seeks to lead civilizations to unify all life in the universe to gestalt beings like Witness as the final shape?
Much like the Traveler, the Veil travels through space "elevating" civilizations to achieve it's ultimate goal.
And the Witness is completely misunderstanding it's purpose.
If the Veil was originally part of the Traveler, and these two parts connected and the pale heart is the original flower game, that would also explain why the Traveler looks like a part was ripped from it, and the veil looks like half of it is a shell.
The Veil is REALLY small though...
@reedwojo7858 I thought the same thing, the Veil is so much smaller than the Traveler. trying to picture how they might look united is kinda ridiculous. maybe the "roots" of the Veil fit into that remaining "broken" area in the Traveler? then maybe the other half of it changes shape/gets larger/turns into a flower? I've no idea, but the size difference is a problem... 🤔
The Vex And The Witness Have One Thing In Common They Are one singular entity. The Witness Are Many Put Into One And The Vex Are One Split Into Many. Remember The Vex Are The Original Final Shape From The Previous garden game
I don't get now how the witnesses species used the veil to merge themselves long ago and then recently fight the guardians to find it. Did they used the veil and then lose the veil? Maybe.
I don’t think they used the veil per se but the knowledge they gained about the darkness from studying the veil.
Kind of like how they gained knowledge of the light by studying the traveler. Whatever that means… ha. I think it’s like how humanity gained various knowledge of how to do various light powers by mediating or something.
I forget who, but they manifested the first golden gun though some knowledge they gained through the light.
The witness people gained the ability to merge themselves into the current form, the witness through the darkness, not necessarily the veil itself.
If that makes sense.
They lost the veil due to savy stealing it and hiding it on Neptune. She didn’t like what the witness had in mind for the final shape and so she tricked the witness, etc
I’m assuming the witness had the veil in tow when they were chasing after the traveller.
they had the Veil and it was intrusted to Nezarec who was then killed by savathun who hid it in Neptune
Thought. But maybe the broken bottom of the traveler is the roots of the vail when they split?
Maybe we're looking at the dark and light aspects of the Destiny universe as opposites when we should see them as halves of the same process, same cycle.
For a garden to thrive, seeds must be planted, what grows from seeds, will bear fruit, fruit will in its turn produce seeds, will die, and become nutrients for the fruit of the future. The gardener is the one that usually helps with the process, start to end, is it not?
The Winnower is The Veil and the Gardener is The Traveller. I think it was The Veil communicating with the scientists on Neptune. The Witness would have come for The Veil if it was speaking through it. The Veil could have tried to create another Wittness by using humanity after The Black Fleet was somehow banished to dark space.
A reference was once made to "the shapeless one" as a voice from the darkness. Was this scrapped? Was it an interpretation of the veil? Or is it a yet unseen antagonist that influenced the precursors as well as Maya and her team? Is the veil simply an instrument of this yet unseen antagonist?
Who knows but that would be crazy if true
Presumably it’s the witness
@@ontos8914My only issue with this is that the precursors heard the same voices that the neomuna researchers heard, at a time before the precursors were combined into the Witness.
I've always had theory of the darkness. Seeing it a hierarchy of power. I've studied the lore for years and names that have great power are the Gardener and the Winnower. For the darkness, this hierarchy revolves around the Winnower. This being would be at the top of the pyramid. This further descends into the areas below. The Witness is really a hand of the Winnower. The other I theorize could be Taox given she was the one who set forth the chain of events creating the Hive. Once most loyal subject of the Osmium King to being the one to slay him. Potentially enacted from the influence of the Winnower. As for the hierarchy, The Winnower at the top, its hands Taox and The Witness under it, both with their respective disciple(s). Taox's disciple being Xivu and the Witness's being Rhulk, Nezerac, and Calus (of course dead). A theory is once we've eliminated them, the Winnower will finally be revealed.
Taox was likely an agent of the Gardener considering she fled to the species which had Gardener given golden ages, the sisters alone like Oryx and Savathûn may have been direct Diciples of the Winnower though as he says “my man Oryx”, and Oryx was one of the strongest practitioners of the sword logic, a concept which transcends the following of light and dark as the lucent hive and Eris also practiced it
the unveiling lore book is as truthful as truth to power its lies created to win the loyalty of the guardians the witness being separate from the darkness and the darkness being the power of the mind means that it debunks the unveiling lore book because both light and darkness are a part of life
Knowing Bungie it'll be hur dur this was the bad guy the whole time.
The witness is offering a beautiful garden, the traveler is offering a yard thats not been cut in 50yrs.
Well we've fought one of the gods, and we're likely to fight him again. Taniks.
I never thought about this but it actually makes sense. If the Witness is just an entire civilization combined into one being, then it cant be the Winnower. And considering that the Traveler is the representive of light (or rather light itself) there also has to be a darkness being (aka the Winnower)
The witness became the windowed itself. They are becoming the embodiment of what they wanted. They needed a winnower so they became it.
There is no winnower it just a religious concept
@@ontos8914 So the big white orb in the sky, that has been giving out powers for god knows how long, is also a religious concept?
@@Wakozi I don’t think you actually understand what they’re talking about. The gardener is just the witnesses race interpretation of the Traveler
@@ontos8914 Ye, I know what they are talking about. I just think that the Gardener is its own entity. Not the Witness. Also, not trying to convince you btw.
I feel like that's what the next Saga will focus on. The creator's of the Traveler and the Veil
I dont really think Destiny’s story makes sense anymore. The darkness was different in D1, but now it’s no longer some big god but some cultists that is obsessed with the traveler. Darkness is now power of the mind instead of being something evil and feared. Also how is the Traveler always running away from the Witness when it’s mortal and the Traveler is pretty much a god. I think Bungie makes the story up from the draw of a hat. (Pulls paper) “okay guys, Crow kills Cayde 6 again.”
The witness isn’t mortal my guy. You’re confusing the witness with the darkness itself back in D1 we didn’t know the difference
@@ontos8914 he/she/it is mortal compared to the traveler. The traveler if it wanted to, could have defeated the witness if it wanted too but it’s not apart of its nature. As for the darkness in D1, it was a lot more frightening than what we got here. Bungie has been trying to salvage Destiny’s story since they burned the original story line months before D1 release and have been poorly winging it since. Not gonna lie they have a banger lore here and there but over all it’s been a down hill run.
@@familiarzero8449 no it’s not
@@familiarzero8449 if the Traveler could defeat the witness any time it would do so instead of running away
@@familiarzero8449 there’s literally nothing about the darkness in destiny 1 my guy
The witness gives me necromorph vibes. They're basically a walking marker...
Whatever the Winnower is, it and the Gardner predate the Witness. So if it’s an actual entity and not simply a concept then they have to be separate things.
the unveiling book is lies to win over guardians to their side through trickery
Wild thought here:
What if the Traveler and the Veil are the physical manifestations of the original Particles of Creation? The Big Bang?
No, that would be just the traveler.
The traveler is everything physical, according to Osiris. Which, in-term, means that the darkness is everything non-physical.
Control (stasis) is non-physical.
“Web of all existence” (strand) is also non-physical, as it’s purely conceptual.
Whereas, say, Temperature (solar) is physical
Gravity (void) is physical
Energy (Arc) is physical
What I mean by “Physical” here, is perceivable, and within our plane of existence. The concept of control and artificial order, for example, is not a real thing, therefore, it’s non-physical, and classed as the darkness.
I think it is a metaphore like The Gardener is the Traveler - The Winnower is the Darkness
boring
After the witch queen, i try to look at the lore differently because things are not always what they seem
I don’t get the problem tho? It’s very easy to see that it’s speaking of both veil and the traveler and yes witness is the witness it’s probably part of veil
Or that witness pretends to be winneror but the lore never says that just that witness is like if
The darkness/winnower can’t be the witness. I’m just gonna give my enemies my power? Hell nah
What did the witness a witness to? The final shape?
the truth of the universe -- Nothing matters -- so it became a nihilist instead of seeking purpose
The witness of the end
Does anyone else feel like the veil was around the traveler like a jacket or a beanie
No.
This is a result of the writings teams changing and or changing their minds.
The Witness was the Winnower's Avatar.
No the winnower is just the darkness
@@ontos8914 And the Darkness was, the power of the Winnower.
@@Youcancallmeishmaell no
@@ontos8914 Yes.
@@Youcancallmeishmaell no I don’t think you understood the lore
My dawg oryx
That thing looks like the Man in the Wall from WF
Guardians have a different meaning of what is The Final Shape. For us it's a color.
What you mean? Explain/back up your point.
So will me meet the being the statue in the pyramid represents? Is that the winnowed?
I don’t think it’s talked enough how the traveler was just stumbled upon by the witnesse’s people. How did it get there? There must be a creator behind it since it’s mechanical to a certain extent. So who made it?
It can be both tangible and metaphorical. Why can’t it not be both that seems a little out of place to say it’s not.
or be all lies
@@fangslore9988 what you mean by lies? Could you explain/back up your point/show evidenfe
For better or worse, I think they’ve dropped the concept of primordial entities existing before the Universe. Really seems like they’ve just decided to go with the easier thing to understand with the Witness.
Ah man, so the Aeon/Mother, Sophia, is off the table
they have but the veil lore book is simply lies. the light is physical and darkness is mental, the winnower is depicted as entropy not mental energy
Bungie really need to add a new species before next year
Did you get the Concept art and statues from Venextron’s vids? I think he has really good theories on the whole Light/Dark shpiel.
It’s from a Bungie artists art station
@@ontos8914 he deleted it off there a bit ago. Venextron downloaded it before it got wiped
We still don’t know what the traveler is??? Or who perhaps
Yeah we do maybe we don’t know if it’s good or bad other than that we know what it
Some reason I feel like there is somebody over the witness
Maybe the gardener is also the Winnower. And the whole creation of the universe is just a splitt. So traveler and veil was also created when this happen. And this God just want to be one again. That might be the true final shape. The veil remembers what was before...
or maybe its all lies
@@fangslore9988 What you mean?
@@Seeker_420 what i mean is that the Witness wanted to use lies and trickery to make the guardians turn against the Traveler by making everything the traveler's fault by painting everything in the lens of the flower game and proposing the shape that was always supposed to come about in the flower game was always what the "final shape" was supposed to be and the traveler was the one who upset the shape of what was supposed to be by becoming a part of the game. but this is debunked when the witness's origins were revealed in season of the deep. which means the Unveiling lore book is simply truth to power 2.0
@@fangslore9988 Yea i know what you mean. I also didnt believe anymore in the metaphor of the flowergame. Since i learnd infos about the veil during light Fall. That is what i meant. The black and white thinking. Good and evil is something from the witness. The traveler is not good as the veil is not evil. They are just omnipresents forces. And i believe this Force is one force like i said. Its something what Osiris discover. When he studied the veil. This is what i meant. I didnt spoke about what we still know or believe
@@Seeker_420 and i also think they're raw fundamental forces that already existed i think they're more like infinity stones of the mcu than anything else
What’s the written name of the artist who drew those traveler concepts? Ilia something
Who was the voice that you hear in beyond light when you break through the ice?
The witness
The Unveiling isnt being narrated by the Witness. Since the Witness refers to itself in the Plural always.
The being in the Unveiling lore refers to itself in the First Person. As it is the First Knife metaphorically.
Yeah that’s just a retcon
Why don’t they just go to the traveler. loooks like they’re some cracks and some holes. Surely there’s something inside?
ahh what better way to enjoy eternity than to play a game. the winnower and gardener seems like sisters.
Well didn't they scrap the concept of Alis Li (The Awoken Lady shown in the Concept Art at 15:25 that is also supposed to represent the Veiled Statue's in the DSC and BG ect, In the Original Story of Destiny 1 & 2 since this Concept Art has been out for a decade) being the Awoken representative (Counterpart to the Witness) of the Gardener just like the Witness is to the Winnower hence why the Statue has a Veil around it as a Symbolism of The Darkness suppressing the Light, the scrapped Concept that had a Story of Alis Li being the true Firstborn Awoken Queen and way stronger than Mara Sov could ever be even on par with the Witness, with Alis Li and the Exo Stranger (Elsie Bray) being best friends with Alis Li later sacrificing herself to stop the 3rd Collapse from happening which made Elsie Bray travel to a different timeline to find one where we had a chance of changing the outcome of this Conflict (our timeline) but turned that Original Story upside down because they fired the Writer because of Dispute not sure the name but he was around since Halo. As far as I know they used to have a scan-patrol in the Dreaming City from Shuro Chi where once you scanned the Lense Glass in the Spine of Keres she would mentioned Alis Li before which has been now replaced and completely removed from the game, damn shame. Fun Fact: The Awoken Ladym (Alis Li) standing in front of the Traveler opened up would later be used in the Lightfall Campaign where the Traveler shoots at the Witness's Pyramid Ship and can see a similar pattern forming on the Traveler before he shoots out his Beam of Light.
To my knowledge and understanding to grasp everything under the destiny lore I think the witness is doing everything under their own selfish belief, because if light and darkness is a force that balanced life and deaththroughout the universe. why go against that what more do you want to understand?
Ahhhh ok, I can’t lie the state of destiny isn’t in the best spot but I figure it’ll get better with the final shape because it seems like the have BOLD plans and not just plain ol same old. Also I can’t wait to see how we manage to defeat the witness
@@albertbenejan9309I hope in the raid the witness changes forms throughout. It would be so cool to see whatever calus saw when he witness trapped him in that glass
I feel like the witness is the winnower since in that cutscene it says something like, they became the salvation they craved. Like surely that means they wanted a winnower to stop the traveller so they made themselves into the winnower
it’s not, it’s just an amalgamation of a species mind all concentrated into a single entity, ahsa tells us this in season of the deep
@@dream8870you misunderstood what it was telling you
I know power does not equal scale; but it’s visually disconcerting to equal the Traveler and the Veil. When the Traveler is the size of a small moon and the Veil looks like it’s housed in a building that would hold a space shuttle. Just sayin’
Goodness, you explain this sh*t better than Bungie does
Why create outrage also could you back up your point?
@@bullrun2772isn't that the point of lore people is to simplify it so everyone is on the same page it won't help to make a lore video that won't make sense
@@Nezarec123 okay so what about the whole poem/parable in some of books huh? You think that’s just a literally what’s going on?
@@bullrun2772What are you even talking about lol
@@Catticombs lol you got be joking did not see the other dudes comments like there talking about that one lore book that seems to be an parable but whatever
Precursors? What is this, Halo?
Well. Now we know
Halo fans sweating bullets after seeing the name Precursors in a Destiny video
Precursors?
i feel like the person that could be inside the traveller the "female" being miasunderresh
What if the true final enemy is bungie ?
Why are you trying create outrage
@@bullrun2772why are you so adamant on defending Bungie
@@ispgravy4233 like what I’m just simple saying you act like you know the truth but you don’t it’s your truth nothing else is kinda of dumb also G ain’t bad but it’s you know I have criticism better than half of these people
@@bullrun2772 how about you learn English?
@@ispgravy4233 okay back up your point/show evidence
I cannot even begin to describe how disappointed I would be if that initial concept art of what the Traveler's "human form" is what ends up being the final version. I wanna see something WILD like those "biblically-accurate angel" memes! I want to take one look at it and see that it is definitely not human!
The one solid thing Bungie has left is their writers. I REALLY hope the Traveller/Garderner doesnt look like a freaking Greek god. Ugh. Boring as hell!
That is cool concept art too bad they will probably never use it
The whole thing about Unveiling being told by the Witness and is unreliable that Bungie is shoving down our throats is so stupid. LET ME MAKE THAT DECISION.
And besides, even if I accept that the Witness told it, there aren’t’ lies. It’s consistent with what the Witness believes. The Light (sky) is death. Guardians revive over and over but that means we die over and over. That’s shown to have lasting trauma as shown in the Jade Rabbit gun’s lore.
The more I read about destiny’s lore, the more confuse I get. I gave up on understanding destiny’s stories….
I think the final shape is the vex. I think we’ll have to assimilate like the witness did and fight as a final shape of our own making, destroying the light and the darkness. We’ll travel through time the way Elsie travels through universes, we can assimilate maya like we did to ourselves, and we can’t use dark or light because we destroy them in the end of the future, which would technically be our past.
If you take it as Witness propaganda, along with the story of Ishtar and Dr. Sunderesh, you could possibly speculate that maybe the witness was their Dr. Sunderesh, and it was not in fact the whole species who consented to the merging. It might have been a small group or individual who forced it's views upon the species. "Taking" them if you will.
The only reason this game is still going is because of the story yourself and byff tell. If bungie were that good at storytelling like everyone claims it wouldn't take dedicated youtubers to narrate and flush out choppy game. GG
It feels so nice taking a break away form D2, so many good games releasing recently. I MIGHT buy final shape if the reviews are good enough.
This games still around, I forgot this trash existed.😂 D1 ALWAYS!❤