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Of course it’s faulty, but it’s about as good as they can do. The biggest fault, since they have no way to precisely measure out used fuel, is using such a small sample size of mile to do these calculations. These videos are misleading for sure. If you really think towing mirrors take away 6mpg, you’ve got problems.
@@phild9813 no it isn't "as good as possible". They run the pump until it shuts off, they wait 30 seconds and mash the handle one more time. They have no way to know if it tripped early on the first one, it could be a weak handle that trips for no reason, and many pumps will trip if they are pulled on quickly. So the first thing to do is calculate by the dash. If you are off by 30% chances are the pump is reacting prematurely. I would run it until it popped off. I would then run it again at half speed until it tripped again. This way you can judge if it had space, or the handle just malfunctioned. THEN I would wait 30 seconds and pull the handle "half way" again (NOT COMPLETELY) until it shut off.
I know this is probably illegal, but could you do a loop with the mirrors completely folded in? The auto manufactures are trying hard to go to cameras because they say mirrors are a huge wind drag, I would be curious how much they really are. And I'm loving this "Myth Busters" style series you guys are doing 👍
Here's a quick test you can do at home. Stick your hand out of the window at highway speeds flat against the wind. Feel that drag? Now do it with your hand turned 90 degrees.
@@Yolbosun reminded me of the Shell eco challenge or whatever. Used to see some seriously impressive fuel economy. Haven’t seen or heard about it recently though.
Honestly I think you guys need to run that test at least two more times if not 6 or 8. I’ve done statical analysis before & if there’s that huge of a difference between the 1st & 2nd test then it needs to be done a couple more times to confirm.
I'd say it needs to be done more than once either way. I get vastly different results on the exact same route and I honestly don't feel like I'm doing anything differently. Some things are just very hard to notice and factor in from the drivers seat but apparently, they can still make a huge difference.
Repeating would be great but but I think the loop needs to be longer. 2-3 gallons of fuel used just isn't enough relative to how much variation there is in when the pump shuts off.
@@sonictech1000 no telling how accurate the pump is without measuring the gas before putting into the vehicle. What they need is a 5 gal tank in the tray that they full from a measured container.
Yeah. Even reducing as many variables as possible, I still wouldn't be convinced it's typically that big of difference. Run a while tank through each way and you'd have pretty solid results.
Wind drag on mirrors is heavily researched. Audi tried to delete the side mirror to gain 10-15% efficiency on small mirrors. The federal govt just recently approved this changes, but still need to approve individual cars
@@AkioWasRight If the Pumps are OFF by that much???? Well, Just run the Pump to the designated Rounded up $ amount, (ie $3.49.9 = $3.50), and the Pump should display "ONE GALLON" within I Think .001 Off?? Of Fuel On the Display! If it don't, Call the Bureau of weight's and measures out to SHUT THAT PUMP "OFF" and Test for correct calibration on ALL the Pumps! S i m p l e T e s t. And it's accurate! I've done this, (my Dad told me about it), and I found a Few Pumps in the Area that were way Off. And YES, I got the Pump #, the Station's Address, and reported it the Bureau of weights and measures, and...... YUP, they were out there pretty Quickly and had Taped off the whole Station and were Pumping Gas into there Measuring container's that are (supposedly) Exactly ONE Gallon. And if they ain't, the Station is Supposedly Fined?????
I think this experiment should be repeated a couple times more to see if it's actually always the case to have a huge increase in the fuel consumption.
I can assure you the moose mode mirrors definitely take my RAM from 20mpg highway to 15mpg. It's not a joke, they really do eat the fuel... and it sucks because it's easier to see with them out having all my overland gear on the rack in the bed.
the drag coefficient for a cube is 1.05 and having them in tow mode adds a whole bunch of cube shaped frontal area. so yeah. the test is correct and mirrors are horrible for drag
I think the variation of when the pump thinks your tank is full and the very small amount of total fuel being used for the test is a bigger factor than you realize. When a half gallon of fuel can swing the results a huge amount, you need to at least have an exact weight measurement of fuel used rather than relying on a pumps sensor for volumetric measurement
Well put! They do need to read this. Problem is, no one wants to hear that at their studio. I can't blame them. It would be insane to have to measure fuel that way and it would make their sponsor look like the pumps are not calibrated. Not a good look IMO. No matter what way you look at it, It needs way more testing. I'm very interested in this and may swap my tow mirrors from my F150 back to standard and back to test myself. Very odd how far it was off. @the fast lane truck
@@ferrisr It would be impossible for them to measure fuel otherwise no? Always potential for inaccurate readings due to this from what I can see. I'm very interested in the actual data. I drive a lot and prefer tow mirrors on my ford and chevy trucks.
@@RegularJoeTravels the most accurate method would be to meter fuel coming off the fuel pump and returning to the tank and monitor consumption that way. I'm thinking just trusting the trip computer would probably be considerably more accurate than the gas pump method though (and likely accurate enough for tests like this), especially on a stock truck, since the ECU knows how long it's firing each injector and how much fuel the injector should dispense in that amount of time.
Your default result of 26.1 mpg deviates considerably from your other default mpg results (tire pressure 22.6, tonneau 21.1, and spoiler 22) and the epa rating 23. While some deviation is expected due to varying conditions the 26.1 result is about 20% higher than the other results, which suggests some kind of anomaly. Given that the mirror modification was run afterwards this anomaly may have affected those results also. A retest is necessary.
@@aroundthegroundlandscaping7107 they need to keep things consistent so they should stick to 87 with the same brand of fuel every fill up even when not testing
@@aroundthegroundlandscaping7107 no the pump didn't fill up the tank as far giving a false high mpg then they over fill on the second run making it low . trust the computer when your only putting in 2 gallons
I agree. For this type of test, where the same truck is used for both runs, I’d believe the truck’s computer for comparison. I’ve been skeptical of the usual 30 second top off method because I just don’t see the pump being that consistent. Especially when the fuel consumed is only 2 gallons.
At the very end, you guys should do a combination of all the things that got good mpg together and then do a run with all the things that got bad mpg together and compare it to see just how big of a difference there could be
With Moose Mode engaged you touched on a critical point that deserves more attention. Deployed, we have better situational awareness, which equals greater safety. On my Ram 2500 HD Cummins, I'm willing to trade some diesel for the safety of my family and my crew.
Great job! I like how you change only one thing at a time, that's the proper way to do it. Not suprising that the hockey stick mirrors get worse mileage, but the difference is more than I guessed.
I agree with everyone else who said you've got to repeat this test a few times. Sure the Cd and frontal area increase a BIT in tow mirror mode. The change in drag could be calculated if those # were known. Eyeballing it, the change will not be large. I do applaud your fill technique with the 30-sec wait. I HOPE you use the exact same pump every time. Control your variables to every degree possible. Air temp variable is surprisingly big, and the truck has to be fully warmed-up including transmission (does it have a trans temp gage?). Things like traffic and wind are impossible to control so that's why you need to repeat it a few times.
0.36 Cd for the ram. 1.05 CD for a box, which is a good enough aproximation for the mirrors. does anybody know the frontal area and how big the mirrors are? and the truck being cold would have lowered the fuel economy ion the first run.
vortexes my good man. When it's way out in the side like that the air you displace is also displacing other air. think of a paddle when you're kayaking. Just because it's a relatively small surface area doesn't account for the fact that where it actually is so far out the main slipstream makes that mirror more effective in being aerodynamically annoying. Next time you're on the highway try sticking your hand out the window and feel the difference close to the cab vs with your hand outstretched
Although interesting I think your test is too small of a sample to be valid. Since the mpg indicator on the in car computer showed about a 1mpg difference I seriously doubt you have an actual 6mpg difference. However, I do agree with your conclusion.
Ok, I watched this video when it came out and lets just say my belief was on the low end. With that said, I recently went on a roadtrip in my 2020 Ram 2500 gasser. I remembered what this video said and did my own experiment. For the first half of my highway miles I had my mirrors set to the "down" setting and was getting about 14.5 MPH. I used my electric motor to "fold in" my mirrors but did not change any other thing about my driving. My mileage went from 14.5 to 16.5 for the remainder of the trip. This was according to my on board computer. I realize mirrors create quite a bit of drag but who knew it was that much. After my little experiment, I tend to believe yours. Thanks for doing all the truck reviews, I do use your research for looking at vehicles.
I have a 2022 ram 1500 classic tradesmen with the 5.7. I have ran the tow mirrors out the entire time I’ve had it, around city I get 16 to 16.5 and the most I got on the highway was almost 20 mpg and I have never folder them in, because we all know tow mirrors must be extended at all times.
I had those mirrors and I loved them, wish I still had them, amazing for off-roading. I never had to change the mirror when they were flipped up. Also I’d redo this test, because I never experienced much if any change to my fuel economy and I watch my fuel economy like a hawk.
I Was Right I Was Right I Was Right!!! Andrei Nathan you can’t beat 21 years of Towing Experience. Started in Alaska and ended in Philadelphia and only once here in Florida. Then after that I drove a Front End Loader for Garbage 9 years here in Florida. So Now You Can Tell Me To Go Scratch!!! LMAO!!! Love You Guys!!!
I like that you guys do tests like this. It's hard to believe the difference in mirror position made a 6mpg difference though. That's a HUGE difference. I was expecting maybe 1mpg difference at the most. I know you guys did what any of us would have done in the same test, but I'm skeptical about the result. Something must be off. A headwind or something.
They commented that the top-off on the first loop was "big" -- if they under-filled after their first loop, that would simultaneously make loop 1 look better and loop 2 look worse, by shifting some of that apparent fuel usage to the second loop.
You should bring in a guest from the people of "Hypermilers " . Let them do their thing and see what kind of mpg they can achieve from the stubby . There's a good chance that their results will be more endowed then yours . That would be a fun comparison . Thx
You should bring in a guest from the people of "Hypermilers " . Let them do their thing and see what kind of mpg they can achieve from the stubby . There's a good chance that their results will be more endowed then yours . That would be a fun comparison . Thx
I agree on the multiple tests. I had a 2016 longhorn with those mirrors. My 2020 I opted for the standard mirror to get surround view camera. I believe the trailer mirrors cause noticeable wind noise over the standard ones even when not in trailer mode.
Is this really surprising? Take a look at the aerodynamics in each position and the “In” position is clearly more aerodynamic. I really think the RAM owners love the look of the (TBM) or Tow Bro Mode even when it’s not applicable, so they justify the look vs cost aspect. You guys should come to Texas and poll how many people here that drive 4x4 trucks don’t actually know how to put their truck in 4WD it’s honestly mind blowing!
My two favorite TFL personalities! Great video about a subject I would not have normally cared to watch a video on. LOL Oh, and don't get me wrong, I love Roman and Tommy, and others too.... just these guys Crack me up
Thanks guys, I know you do your best to keep things scientific but this result just seems unbelievable. I guess we can’t open the window anymore and let our hand flow through the wind, lol. Once it warms up can you do this loop windows open and then windows closed to see the difference?
@@diab01us at highway speeds. Below 45 mph, windows down is more efficient. Then on a truck you must have a split rear window, as it generates a massive airflow through the cab with the windows just open an inch .
In my 14 ram 2500 when the mirrors are up I have zero blind spots, and it's quite nice when you're driving, i usually put them down when im not towing not because of mpg, it's because my friends will make fun of me. But now I'm definitely never leaving them up. 6 mpg is crazy. And you guys will need to test the rest of the mirrors in the class.
Mirrors are a HUGE factor. Over here in europe we got these clip on mirrors for passenger vehicle cars when towing a camper trailer or whatever, and they drink upwards of 3-5 liters/100km on top of your regular fuel mileage, that test is in fact valid. Not only that, its fairly straightforward. The standart position mirror only adds a bit of the outline and are in fact aerodynamic as it can get. The Tow-position ads a whole load of extra drag and extends your vehicles outline by a LOT! If you wanna give it a shot yourself, hold out your hand for a certain period of time, to see how much force you have to bring up to hold your arm in position at highway speeds.
You can get the power convex mirror on a tradesman truck. It's an option that other manufacturers keep to higher trim levels. I still agree that they aren't the best and so does Ram because they redesigned them for 23. Thanks for all y'all do.
im on board with everyone saying these tests should be done many more times and then averaged out. all of the fuel mpg tests should be 5 to 10 runs and then averaged. you guys have the money, you guys can do it and it'll be much more accurate for all of these tests
I would not use the GPS mileage. If you keep everything referenced to the odometer in the truck, minor variations in driving won't matter. This is a relative test, not absolute between the two mirror modes. You are using a driving average (57 miles), then applying a one-time result to that average which is not valid. It needs to be referenced to the actual mileage, like 26.6 shown on the odometer. Regardless of results, I plan on running my 2014 Ram 3500 with the tow mirrors out. I can see better and don't have to swap back and forth when not towing my 5th wheel / boat combo. Thanks Andre "Topov", I really appreciate all of the TFL videos!
Can you do an error test? Just repeat the same test 3 times to see how much variation you have. Then you can subtract that from your results and get a more accurate FE improvement value.
100% agree, great idea too! They should also consider how long they may have sat at idle while adjusting the mirrors or even sitting at stop lights or waiting for the pump between tests. My experience with my Ram tow mirrors never had me thinking there was a significant fuel consumption difference between the configurations so it will be interesting to see if they do any follow up testing. Either way, until the test is reliable to repeat, there are a lot of factors that could skew the results, maybe even drastically. I have been following along for a while now and don't recall them establishing a reliable baseline for the test, other than trying to keep things consistent which is great, but I am very curious what their results would be for the same test, 2 or 3 times in a row.
If you run the loop twice without changing anything. You will see mpg difference depending on engine breaking, wind, and traffic. Cool series none the less. Thanks Andre.
I agree with the others. Something was up with that first test. I did notice you noted filling up with 87 over 85 the first time, but did not make mention of it on the later fill ups?
I was noting that moderate temps seem to improve my gas mileage appreciably from very cold temps - at least going by the MPG meter in the DIC. Wouldn't be surprised about the mirrors - especially sticking so far out of the stream flow of the vehicle.
I really appreciate these tests, but I'd love to have you guys send an intern out to run the same test, same configuration 5 times in a row to see what the standard deviation is. Even moreso with a diesel to catch runs with/without regeneration
We call tow mirrors up "Ghost Trailer' mode up here. I've had my ram for 7 or so years, I've flipped the mirrors up twice. I tow cars, 8'6" wide enclosed, sheds, chicken coops, etc etc.. I find I can see perfectly fine with them down. I did adjust the convex so I don't need to adjust them at all when/if I flip the mirrors and when I thought flipping the mirrors up was going to be useful I set the #2 driver profile for that setting, so if i flip them I hit 1 button and done.
Manufacturers design mirrors to channel and move air around the vehicle in the most efficient manner possible. Putting the mirrors up increases the front facing surface area, and changes the airflow around the vehicle. I would not be surprised to find out the mirrors placed vertically help reduce wind drag on the trailer being towed even while increasing wind drag on the truck alone.
Thank you for all the work you do. Very interesting series. Maybe as a conclusion you could make a loop with all the setting for best efficiency and then for worse to see the total gain. thank you !
next time you guys get a loaner truck that has these kind of mirrors you should run this test again and benchmark it with another run on the stubby ram to see if its consistent, I've been enjoying this series good stuff 👍
I think it may be too large a difference. You may have to repeat the first part if the test to be sure. If you get a similar number then you will know if it was an anomaly or not. Still, I cannot see anything wrong. You have done a great video. Keep the comparisons coming.
Consider using an OBD2 reader and app that can read the fuel usage read by the ECU. That would be more accurate than relying on a gasoline pump. I suspect the small drop calculated by the truck is closer to the real result.
When I bought this 6.7 Cummins, it’s a 22 bighorn 3500 (not a dually) completely factory besides some interior stuff, it’s the high output with the Aisin. I never expected any fuel economy. I have 6,000 miles on this truck and my average when empty on FLAT ROADS in the Midwest, varies between 20-23. 20 on interstate driving speed limit which is 70 here, and 55 on highways. I think foot control is a huge factor. Like how hard you push it to reach that speed. I think it affects it a lot, you breath on this throttle and it’s moving. And no I don’t drive around in moose mode. And now I’m definitely glad I don’t lol. I will say though pulling a big skid steer yesterday did drop me down to about 9 😂
I love the Tundra tow mirror better then these from Ram. it extend out horizontally then vertically which make more since to me. Yes and you are Right they views will asked for you to test the other mirrors, so I am putting in the request to asked that you test the Toyota Tundra towing mirror too.
I have a Ram with the same type of mirror and yes I tell the difference if the mirrors are up or down.I only have mine when I am towing a trailer and I don't care if it doesn't look cool.
This testing series would have been an ideal time me for TFL to spend the effort to install a flow meter on the fuel line and monitor it via laptop. If done right, the increased level of accuracy would have been worth it, IMO. For science, of course.
I have those mirrors on my 2013 ram and I leave them down all the time. Even while towing my camper. I’ve never felt the need to flip them up because of the hassle in doing so.
It may be boring as all get out, but when using only 2 to 3 gallons at a time there a large impact with small variations. Doubling or tripling the distance would provide a more accurate sample size.
I was surprised how big of a difference that was. Looking at the profile of the mirrors themselves in the two positions I would have expected much smaller difference. Cool experiment
Seems you happened apron the blaring problem with your test, the pump works on air pressure differential. Big change in air pressure will change shut off point. As well as changes do to fuel temp in the tank. Two a half gallons is a long way from a valid fuel test! The dash computer is much more accurate at those minimum mileages! Late models have fuel pressure and temp readings making the fuel readings very close minus the distance differential.
This makes perfect sense as switching form normal to tow configuration, changes the aerodynamic characteristics. Have the mirrors up for towing creates turbulence on either side of the truck which will affect the air moving around the truck. With the mirrors down, that is minimized. I wonder If the shorter non-tow mirror will have better results.
Damn! These experiments are eye opening. Who knew that mirrors and chin spoilers made THAT MUCH of a difference. I thought it would have been marginal. I’m for sure going to slap on my old Burbans chin spoiler. Even though it would usually get anywhere from 9-12 mpg.
Not that anyone will read this now..😂 But after watching and checking 2 times the issue was clear. When he calculated the mileage he DID NOT USE THE SAME FORMULA BOTH TIMES. This is why there so bizzaro. This test is a complete failure due to human error. But as i watched it it can be updated just by rewatching the video and doing the calculations correctly this go.. 🎉
6 mpg from mirror position... that is a big enough hit that I would love to see if you guys could get an engineer (Maybe colab with Engineering Explained even and reach a new audience segment ) to explain just how extending the mirrors can cause such a major increase in drag.
Not saying it would cause THIS much of a change, but the reason is because the wind is being directed differently with the mirrors up vs. down. When they are down, the shape of the mirrors cause the wind to be deflected up, not only slightly lowering the front of the truck (and shrinking the amount of area for wind to go underneath), but going the same direction on both sides. When the mirrors are up, the wedges are now turned on their sides facing opposite ways. The wind being deflected is trying to push the truck one way on the driver's side and the opposite way on the passenger's side. This creates additional drag.
I would like to see you test different brands of air filter on this truck. K&n, fram, wix, etc to see which gives the best MPG. I would really like to see if you could get 30 mpg out of that truck. I also wonder what effect those mud flaps have on the mpg
@@ALMX5DP He did. He basically concluded K&N filters do flow "better" than others (which is only relevant if your intake restriction is actually the air filter - many are not), but were terrible for actually filtering the air.
My biggest issue with the Ram mirrors is that they do not heat the bottom mirror. Using the 2500’s for plow trucks and needing to scrape ice off the bottom mirror while the top is heated is beyond irritating. It also makes pulling trailers in the winter more difficult when you can’t see the trailer while making turns. I don’t understand why Ram doesn’t address this. Rant over.
Nice video. I now know why every HD dodge I see going down the road has the mirrors flipped up. I would love to see the same test on a 2500 or 3500 diesel. I suspect the difference will not be very noticeable.
A short fill after the first run will screw you twice. It will make that trip look better than it really is, AND it will make the next trip look worse than it really is (assuming 2nd fill is normal)
Another thing to do for a better test is to accelerate the vehicle at the same rate on each loop. A consistent acceleration rate on each loop is needed to assure consistent results on each test loop.
Guys, do another test comparing driving the speed limit and driving 5mph under the speed limit! Everyone keeps saying y’all are driving too fast to get good fuel economy, so why not test that? How much of an improvement will slowing just 5 mph give???
If you average the to runs you get 22.8mpg, a lot closer both ways to what the truck calculated. At 57miles and 2-3 gallons, a pint (one beer) difference in the filling up can swing the hand calculated mpg 1.5 points. What probably happened was the mirror-in fill-up was short and the mirror-out fill-up was to the top. We are talking about the nozzle being inserted into the tank 1/2" further and the pump running 2 seconds longer. The tests need to be more miles to reduce the effect of fill up inconsistents and idle time.
Just did a trip from Virginia to Texas, I was curious so I put my moose mirror's out on the way down I avereged 13.6 mpg, on the way back with stuppy mirrors I averaged 18.1 mpg. They make a big difference.
Since you have also a 2500 ram diesel. You should make a test run on that one also since it has the same side mirrors. Maybe that would prove something.
🤣 This is nuts. I don't buy the 1st MPG #'s. Something was way off about that to start. But that's ok. If it was 100% accurate, there would be nothing to talk about. Now do the "Let's Find Out" loop with a hitch receiver on and off. 🤣
TFL runs on Sinclair fuel and so should you. Download the Sinclair DYNOPAY app and start saving as much as $0.10 or more per gallon on your next fill-up. ( www.sinclairoil.com/customers )
I have never trusted your top off technique. I think this just proved it to be faulty.
The closest Sinclair is over an hour from me 😂
Of course it’s faulty, but it’s about as good as they can do. The biggest fault, since they have no way to precisely measure out used fuel, is using such a small sample size of mile to do these calculations. These videos are misleading for sure. If you really think towing mirrors take away 6mpg, you’ve got problems.
You should look up the ad rules on UA-cam, I believe you're not meeting them. Tom Scott did a good video on it
@@phild9813 no it isn't "as good as possible". They run the pump until it shuts off, they wait 30 seconds and mash the handle one more time. They have no way to know if it tripped early on the first one, it could be a weak handle that trips for no reason, and many pumps will trip if they are pulled on quickly. So the first thing to do is calculate by the dash. If you are off by 30% chances are the pump is reacting prematurely.
I would run it until it popped off. I would then run it again at half speed until it tripped again. This way you can judge if it had space, or the handle just malfunctioned. THEN I would wait 30 seconds and pull the handle "half way" again (NOT COMPLETELY) until it shut off.
I know this is probably illegal, but could you do a loop with the mirrors completely folded in?
The auto manufactures are trying hard to go to cameras because they say mirrors are a huge wind drag, I would be curious how much they really are.
And I'm loving this "Myth Busters" style series you guys are doing 👍
You missed your chance to say it like, "Manufacturers say that mirrors are a huge drag, man!"
LOL 😂, I'll turn my head or use a mirror before I have to stare at a computer screen.
The US government made mirror replacing side cameras illegal.
Many who do top speed runs, fold the mirrors in. It too countless hour in the wind tunnel for corvette design teams to get the mirrors right
Here's a quick test you can do at home. Stick your hand out of the window at highway speeds flat against the wind. Feel that drag? Now do it with your hand turned 90 degrees.
Shoutout to Sinclair for being the first fuel company smart enough to actually sponsor a show like this (that I'm aware of).
Mobile oil gas mileage challenge
Probably a little before your time
@@Yolbosun reminded me of the Shell eco challenge or whatever. Used to see some seriously impressive fuel economy. Haven’t seen or heard about it recently though.
@@ALMX5DP I forgot about shell doing that 🤔
@@Yolbosun Mobil, damn it.
Grow up, Kid.
Repeatability is the bedrock of a test like this. Back in the seats gentlemen! Round and round you go. For our amusement.
Honestly I think you guys need to run that test at least two more times if not 6 or 8. I’ve done statical analysis before & if there’s that huge of a difference between the 1st & 2nd test then it needs to be done a couple more times to confirm.
Agreed!
I'd say it needs to be done more than once either way. I get vastly different results on the exact same route and I honestly don't feel like I'm doing anything differently. Some things are just very hard to notice and factor in from the drivers seat but apparently, they can still make a huge difference.
I concur captain
Repeating would be great but but I think the loop needs to be longer. 2-3 gallons of fuel used just isn't enough relative to how much variation there is in when the pump shuts off.
@@sonictech1000 no telling how accurate the pump is without measuring the gas before putting into the vehicle. What they need is a 5 gal tank in the tray that they full from a measured container.
I'd run that test one more time to verify. That's an absurd difference and makes me wonder how accurate and reproducible those results are.
Yeah. Even reducing as many variables as possible, I still wouldn't be convinced it's typically that big of difference. Run a while tank through each way and you'd have pretty solid results.
I can't help but wonder if the first loop wasn't an outlier for some reason. I agree. Repeat the test.
The pumps are way off. I said the same thing in their last test. They should test one of the pumps twice.
Wind drag on mirrors is heavily researched. Audi tried to delete the side mirror to gain 10-15% efficiency on small mirrors. The federal govt just recently approved this changes, but still need to approve individual cars
@@AkioWasRight If the Pumps are OFF by that much???? Well, Just run the Pump to the designated Rounded up $ amount, (ie $3.49.9 = $3.50), and the Pump should display "ONE GALLON" within I Think .001 Off?? Of Fuel On the Display! If it don't, Call the Bureau of weight's and measures out to SHUT THAT PUMP "OFF" and Test for correct calibration on ALL the Pumps! S i m p l e T e s t. And it's accurate! I've done this, (my Dad told me about it), and I found a Few Pumps in the Area that were way Off. And YES, I got the Pump #, the Station's Address, and reported it the Bureau of weights and measures, and...... YUP, they were out there pretty Quickly and had Taped off the whole Station and were Pumping Gas into there Measuring container's that are (supposedly) Exactly ONE Gallon. And if they ain't, the Station is Supposedly Fined?????
You two are hilarious 🤣 like an old married couple. You two Correcting each other is just brilliant. Fun to see from your tests 👍✌️🇨🇦
I think this experiment should be repeated a couple times more to see if it's actually always the case to have a huge increase in the fuel consumption.
Agreed. Nathan’s pumping skills are suspect 😮
They should have backed up the mirrors-in segment again (right after the 'moose-mode' run).
I can assure you the moose mode mirrors definitely take my RAM from 20mpg highway to 15mpg. It's not a joke, they really do eat the fuel... and it sucks because it's easier to see with them out having all my overland gear on the rack in the bed.
@@DaveDuzzit
Aerodynamics..
Just like putting your hand out the window.
Fist goes through the air better then a hand wave
the drag coefficient for a cube is 1.05
and having them in tow mode adds a whole bunch of cube shaped frontal area.
so yeah. the test is correct and mirrors are horrible for drag
I think the variation of when the pump thinks your tank is full and the very small amount of total fuel being used for the test is a bigger factor than you realize. When a half gallon of fuel can swing the results a huge amount, you need to at least have an exact weight measurement of fuel used rather than relying on a pumps sensor for volumetric measurement
I hope they read your comment
Well put! They do need to read this. Problem is, no one wants to hear that at their studio. I can't blame them. It would be insane to have to measure fuel that way and it would make their sponsor look like the pumps are not calibrated. Not a good look IMO. No matter what way you look at it, It needs way more testing. I'm very interested in this and may swap my tow mirrors from my F150 back to standard and back to test myself. Very odd how far it was off. @the fast lane truck
@@RegularJoeTravels It has nothing to do with calibration/accuracy of the pump, just variances on when it detects the tank is full
@@ferrisr It would be impossible for them to measure fuel otherwise no? Always potential for inaccurate readings due to this from what I can see. I'm very interested in the actual data. I drive a lot and prefer tow mirrors on my ford and chevy trucks.
@@RegularJoeTravels the most accurate method would be to meter fuel coming off the fuel pump and returning to the tank and monitor consumption that way. I'm thinking just trusting the trip computer would probably be considerably more accurate than the gas pump method though (and likely accurate enough for tests like this), especially on a stock truck, since the ECU knows how long it's firing each injector and how much fuel the injector should dispense in that amount of time.
Your default result of 26.1 mpg deviates considerably from your other default mpg results (tire pressure 22.6, tonneau 21.1, and spoiler 22) and the epa rating 23. While some deviation is expected due to varying conditions the 26.1 result is about 20% higher than the other results, which suggests some kind of anomaly. Given that the mirror modification was run afterwards this anomaly may have affected those results also. A retest is necessary.
They used 85 octane on those video where they used 87 in this video which will result in higher fuel economy
@@aroundthegroundlandscaping7107 they need to keep things consistent so they should stick to 87 with the same brand of fuel every fill up even when not testing
@@aroundthegroundlandscaping7107 no the pump didn't fill up the tank as far giving a false high mpg then they over fill on the second run making it low . trust the computer when your only putting in 2 gallons
They used 87 this time, mostly 85 octane on other tests.
Yep. Either a full difference or someone "mistakenly" followed a semi for 10 miles.
Love the Stuby regular cab series.
Stubby. You attended public schools, right?
I believe the 0.2 MPG difference shown on the truck’s computer is probably closer to being accurate.
Yeah that puts it at about 1% difference. The onboard computer is better for measuring small differences in fuel consumption.
Agreed, that ECM knows exactly how much fuel is being used.
I agree. For this type of test, where the same truck is used for both runs, I’d believe the truck’s computer for comparison. I’ve been skeptical of the usual 30 second top off method because I just don’t see the pump being that consistent. Especially when the fuel consumed is only 2 gallons.
100% in agreement. Two pump method is not only wrong, it is absolutely useless on a test of 2 to 3 gallons. What a waste of time.
@@joshc606 yeah but they are not asking how much fuel was metered. they are asking what the miles per gallon are.
I would suggest using the slow setting on the pump handle to get the most consistent top off.
At the very end, you guys should do a combination of all the things that got good mpg together and then do a run with all the things that got bad mpg together and compare it to see just how big of a difference there could be
With Moose Mode engaged you touched on a critical point that deserves more attention. Deployed, we have better situational awareness, which equals greater safety. On my Ram 2500 HD Cummins, I'm willing to trade some diesel for the safety of my family and my crew.
Great job! I like how you change only one thing at a time, that's the proper way to do it. Not suprising that the hockey stick mirrors get worse mileage, but the difference is more than I guessed.
I agree with everyone else who said you've got to repeat this test a few times. Sure the Cd and frontal area increase a BIT in tow mirror mode. The change in drag could be calculated if those # were known. Eyeballing it, the change will not be large. I do applaud your fill technique with the 30-sec wait. I HOPE you use the exact same pump every time. Control your variables to every degree possible. Air temp variable is surprisingly big, and the truck has to be fully warmed-up including transmission (does it have a trans temp gage?). Things like traffic and wind are impossible to control so that's why you need to repeat it a few times.
0.36 Cd for the ram.
1.05 CD for a box, which is a good enough aproximation for the mirrors.
does anybody know the frontal area and how big the mirrors are?
and the truck being cold would have lowered the fuel economy ion the first run.
vortexes my good man. When it's way out in the side like that the air you displace is also displacing other air. think of a paddle when you're kayaking. Just because it's a relatively small surface area doesn't account for the fact that where it actually is so far out the main slipstream makes that mirror more effective in being aerodynamically annoying.
Next time you're on the highway try sticking your hand out the window and feel the difference close to the cab vs with your hand outstretched
Although interesting I think your test is too small of a sample to be valid. Since the mpg indicator on the in car computer showed about a 1mpg difference I seriously doubt you have an actual 6mpg difference. However, I do agree with your conclusion.
Ok, I watched this video when it came out and lets just say my belief was on the low end. With that said, I recently went on a roadtrip in my 2020 Ram 2500 gasser. I remembered what this video said and did my own experiment. For the first half of my highway miles I had my mirrors set to the "down" setting and was getting about 14.5 MPH. I used my electric motor to "fold in" my mirrors but did not change any other thing about my driving. My mileage went from 14.5 to 16.5 for the remainder of the trip. This was according to my on board computer. I realize mirrors create quite a bit of drag but who knew it was that much. After my little experiment, I tend to believe yours. Thanks for doing all the truck reviews, I do use your research for looking at vehicles.
That's crazy!! Thanks guys, had no idea it would be such a big difference.
Nathan and Andre are a great Duo.
I have a 2022 ram 1500 classic tradesmen with the 5.7. I have ran the tow mirrors out the entire time I’ve had it, around city I get 16 to 16.5 and the most I got on the highway was almost 20 mpg and I have never folder them in, because we all know tow mirrors must be extended at all times.
“What has Roman done to you?” 😂😂😂
I had those mirrors and I loved them, wish I still had them, amazing for off-roading. I never had to change the mirror when they were flipped up. Also I’d redo this test, because I never experienced much if any change to my fuel economy and I watch my fuel economy like a hawk.
I’m loving this work truck series!
I Was Right I Was Right I Was Right!!! Andrei Nathan you can’t beat 21 years of Towing Experience. Started in Alaska and ended in Philadelphia and only once here in Florida. Then after that I drove a Front End Loader for Garbage 9 years here in Florida. So Now You Can Tell Me To Go Scratch!!! LMAO!!! Love You Guys!!!
I’ve never laughed so hard at a TFL video, fellas! Haha “They call me Andrei Topoff” haha brilliant
Great video. It's good to see Nathan in the last few videos.
I like that you guys do tests like this. It's hard to believe the difference in mirror position made a 6mpg difference though. That's a HUGE difference. I was expecting maybe 1mpg difference at the most. I know you guys did what any of us would have done in the same test, but I'm skeptical about the result. Something must be off. A headwind or something.
They commented that the top-off on the first loop was "big" -- if they under-filled after their first loop, that would simultaneously make loop 1 look better and loop 2 look worse, by shifting some of that apparent fuel usage to the second loop.
@@ferrisr thank you some one with a brain
22.4 vs 22. probably .4 to .3 mpg difference
I always had great MPG with my mirrors up I would say this is a fluke and needs another test
You should bring in a guest from the people of "Hypermilers " . Let them do their thing and see what kind of mpg they can achieve from the stubby . There's a good chance that their results will be more endowed then yours . That would be a fun comparison . Thx
I'd say you're pretty spot on with the test.
As someone who's replaced the standard mirrors with tow mirrors... that hurts the MPG more.
You should bring in a guest from the people of "Hypermilers " . Let them do their thing and see what kind of mpg they can achieve from the stubby . There's a good chance that their results will be more endowed then yours . That would be a fun comparison . Thx
I agree on the multiple tests. I had a 2016 longhorn with those mirrors. My 2020 I opted for the standard mirror to get surround view camera. I believe the trailer mirrors cause noticeable wind noise over the standard ones even when not in trailer mode.
that doesn't sound right. 6 mpg difference? I wonder what would happen if you did it a second time. I could see maybe 1 mpg, maybe....but 6?
Definitely deserves repeating.
I don't believe it at all. If that was true the over reaching government would be banning mirrors all together.
I'm thoroughly enjoying this MPG series. Id love to see a bug deflector tested, i've always enjoyed the appearance of them but at what cost.
Is this really surprising? Take a look at the aerodynamics in each position and the “In” position is clearly more aerodynamic. I really think the RAM owners love the look of the (TBM) or Tow Bro Mode even when it’s not applicable, so they justify the look vs cost aspect. You guys should come to Texas and poll how many people here that drive 4x4 trucks don’t actually know how to put their truck in 4WD it’s honestly mind blowing!
11:25 Andre's reaction had me cracking up. Haha!
My two favorite TFL personalities! Great video about a subject I would not have normally cared to watch a video on. LOL
Oh, and don't get me wrong, I love Roman and Tommy, and others too.... just these guys Crack me up
Thanks guys, I know you do your best to keep things scientific but this result just seems unbelievable. I guess we can’t open the window anymore and let our hand flow through the wind, lol.
Once it warms up can you do this loop windows open and then windows closed to see the difference?
Myth Busters did one with windows down AC off and windows up AC on. It was more efficient with windows up AC on.
@@diab01us at highway speeds. Below 45 mph, windows down is more efficient.
Then on a truck you must have a split rear window, as it generates a massive airflow through the cab with the windows just open an inch .
What? These clowns are phoning it in. No scientific methodology is present in these tests. Just run and gun video.
In my 14 ram 2500 when the mirrors are up I have zero blind spots, and it's quite nice when you're driving, i usually put them down when im not towing not because of mpg, it's because my friends will make fun of me. But now I'm definitely never leaving them up. 6 mpg is crazy. And you guys will need to test the rest of the mirrors in the class.
Mirrors are a HUGE factor. Over here in europe we got these clip on mirrors for passenger vehicle cars when towing a camper trailer or whatever, and they drink upwards of 3-5 liters/100km on top of your regular fuel mileage, that test is in fact valid. Not only that, its fairly straightforward. The standart position mirror only adds a bit of the outline and are in fact aerodynamic as it can get. The Tow-position ads a whole load of extra drag and extends your vehicles outline by a LOT!
If you wanna give it a shot yourself, hold out your hand for a certain period of time, to see how much force you have to bring up to hold your arm in position at highway speeds.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that Nathan is wearing a Motörhead hat!
You can get the power convex mirror on a tradesman truck. It's an option that other manufacturers keep to higher trim levels. I still agree that they aren't the best and so does Ram because they redesigned them for 23. Thanks for all y'all do.
I see what you guys did there. Did a promotion for Sinclair and called it a Moose Mode mirror mpg test. God I love TFL & Capitalism!
✌🏽🇺🇸🙏
Wait if half the tank was already filled with 85 octane the results will be skewed.
im on board with everyone saying these tests should be done many more times and then averaged out. all of the fuel mpg tests should be 5 to 10 runs and then averaged. you guys have the money, you guys can do it and it'll be much more accurate for all of these tests
This video hit home to the Ram guys. Who I see most of the time have their mirrors extended with nothing in bed or nothing to tow. 😂
I would not use the GPS mileage. If you keep everything referenced to the odometer in the truck, minor variations in driving won't matter. This is a relative test, not absolute between the two mirror modes. You are using a driving average (57 miles), then applying a one-time result to that average which is not valid. It needs to be referenced to the actual mileage, like 26.6 shown on the odometer.
Regardless of results, I plan on running my 2014 Ram 3500 with the tow mirrors out. I can see better and don't have to swap back and forth when not towing my 5th wheel / boat combo.
Thanks Andre "Topov", I really appreciate all of the TFL videos!
Can you do an error test? Just repeat the same test 3 times to see how much variation you have. Then you can subtract that from your results and get a more accurate FE improvement value.
Have you run two loops with no modifications, back to back, to see what the margin of error is?
100% agree, great idea too! They should also consider how long they may have sat at idle while adjusting the mirrors or even sitting at stop lights or waiting for the pump between tests. My experience with my Ram tow mirrors never had me thinking there was a significant fuel consumption difference between the configurations so it will be interesting to see if they do any follow up testing. Either way, until the test is reliable to repeat, there are a lot of factors that could skew the results, maybe even drastically. I have been following along for a while now and don't recall them establishing a reliable baseline for the test, other than trying to keep things consistent which is great, but I am very curious what their results would be for the same test, 2 or 3 times in a row.
Changing wind conditions...?
If you run the loop twice without changing anything. You will see mpg difference depending on engine breaking, wind, and traffic. Cool series none the less. Thanks Andre.
I agree with the others. Something was up with that first test. I did notice you noted filling up with 87 over 85 the first time, but did not make mention of it on the later fill ups?
That difference is insane!! You gotta test this several more times to see whether it comes back the same. That is WILD tho, that amount of difference
That is insane, I always run my mirrors down when not towing, just a crazy difference 😮
I was noting that moderate temps seem to improve my gas mileage appreciably from very cold temps - at least going by the MPG meter in the DIC. Wouldn't be surprised about the mirrors - especially sticking so far out of the stream flow of the vehicle.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 awesome video, Nathan leave Andre alone. You rock guys
I really appreciate these tests, but I'd love to have you guys send an intern out to run the same test, same configuration 5 times in a row to see what the standard deviation is. Even moreso with a diesel to catch runs with/without regeneration
This probably needs to be redone, 6mpg seems like huge amount. I could see 1-2mpg. But 6... Nah, I think something's off
Only a f 00 l would believe this.
We call tow mirrors up "Ghost Trailer' mode up here. I've had my ram for 7 or so years, I've flipped the mirrors up twice. I tow cars, 8'6" wide enclosed, sheds, chicken coops, etc etc.. I find I can see perfectly fine with them down. I did adjust the convex so I don't need to adjust them at all when/if I flip the mirrors and when I thought flipping the mirrors up was going to be useful I set the #2 driver profile for that setting, so if i flip them I hit 1 button and done.
Manufacturers design mirrors to channel and move air around the vehicle in the most efficient manner possible. Putting the mirrors up increases the front facing surface area, and changes the airflow around the vehicle. I would not be surprised to find out the mirrors placed vertically help reduce wind drag on the trailer being towed even while increasing wind drag on the truck alone.
Thank you for all the work you do. Very interesting series. Maybe as a conclusion you could make a loop with all the setting for best efficiency and then for worse to see the total gain. thank you !
The music fit the video perfectly.
next time you guys get a loaner truck that has these kind of mirrors you should run this test again and benchmark it with another run on the stubby ram to see if its consistent, I've been enjoying this series good stuff 👍
Great job !!! Thank you guys !!!
Ok agreed, this needs to be run again... But cool finding, we all want to know if it is repeatable, cause wow big difference
I think it may be too large a difference. You may have to repeat the first part if the test to be sure. If you get a similar number then you will know if it was an anomaly or not. Still, I cannot see anything wrong. You have done a great video. Keep the comparisons coming.
Consider using an OBD2 reader and app that can read the fuel usage read by the ECU. That would be more accurate than relying on a gasoline pump. I suspect the small drop calculated by the truck is closer to the real result.
You are right about leaving them up, in the winter while I tow my 8.5 wide snowmobile trailer I keep the mirrors up, in the summer they are down..
When I bought this 6.7 Cummins, it’s a 22 bighorn 3500 (not a dually) completely factory besides some interior stuff, it’s the high output with the Aisin. I never expected any fuel economy. I have 6,000 miles on this truck and my average when empty on FLAT ROADS in the Midwest, varies between 20-23.
20 on interstate driving speed limit which is 70 here, and 55 on highways.
I think foot control is a huge factor. Like how hard you push it to reach that speed. I think it affects it a lot, you breath on this throttle and it’s moving.
And no I don’t drive around in moose mode. And now I’m definitely glad I don’t lol.
I will say though pulling a big skid steer yesterday did drop me down to about 9 😂
26 mpg is fantastic too! My old Mav FX4 was usually 3 mpg less than the computer, this truck seems to be the opposite.
Nathan’s prediction is absolutely right: do it for every truck mirrors, guys. 😁
Andre with the dramatics lol
I call for a redo on this test!
I love the Tundra tow mirror better then these from Ram. it extend out horizontally then vertically which make more since to me. Yes and you are Right they views will asked for you to test the other mirrors, so I am putting in the request to asked that you test the Toyota Tundra towing mirror too.
I have a Ram with the same type of mirror and yes I tell the difference if the mirrors are up or down.I only have mine when I am towing a trailer and I don't care if it doesn't look cool.
This testing series would have been an ideal time me for TFL to spend the effort to install a flow meter on the fuel line and monitor it via laptop. If done right, the increased level of accuracy would have been worth it, IMO. For science, of course.
I have those mirrors on my 2013 ram and I leave them down all the time. Even while towing my camper. I’ve never felt the need to flip them up because of the hassle in doing so.
It may be boring as all get out, but when using only 2 to 3 gallons at a time there a large impact with small variations. Doubling or tripling the distance would provide a more accurate sample size.
I was surprised how big of a difference that was. Looking at the profile of the mirrors themselves in the two positions I would have expected much smaller difference. Cool experiment
Seems you happened apron the blaring problem with your test, the pump works on air pressure differential. Big change in air pressure will change shut off point. As well as changes do to fuel temp in the tank. Two a half gallons is a long way from a valid fuel test! The dash computer is much more accurate at those minimum mileages! Late models have fuel pressure and temp readings making the fuel readings very close minus the distance differential.
This makes perfect sense as switching form normal to tow configuration, changes the aerodynamic characteristics. Have the mirrors up for towing creates turbulence on either side of the truck which will affect the air moving around the truck. With the mirrors down, that is minimized.
I wonder If the shorter non-tow mirror will have better results.
Damn! These experiments are eye opening. Who knew that mirrors and chin spoilers made THAT MUCH of a difference. I thought it would have been marginal. I’m for sure going to slap on my old Burbans chin spoiler. Even though it would usually get anywhere from 9-12 mpg.
Not that anyone will read this now..😂 But after watching and checking 2 times the issue was clear. When he calculated the mileage he DID NOT USE THE SAME FORMULA BOTH TIMES. This is why there so bizzaro. This test is a complete failure due to human error. But as i watched it it can be updated just by rewatching the video and doing the calculations correctly this go.. 🎉
6 mpg from mirror position... that is a big enough hit that I would love to see if you guys could get an engineer (Maybe colab with Engineering Explained even and reach a new audience segment ) to explain just how extending the mirrors can cause such a major increase in drag.
They’d probably say that the result is not accurate and needs to be repeated for validity.
Do it TFL!!!
And tell him to bring his whiteboard
Not saying it would cause THIS much of a change, but the reason is because the wind is being directed differently with the mirrors up vs. down. When they are down, the shape of the mirrors cause the wind to be deflected up, not only slightly lowering the front of the truck (and shrinking the amount of area for wind to go underneath), but going the same direction on both sides.
When the mirrors are up, the wedges are now turned on their sides facing opposite ways. The wind being deflected is trying to push the truck one way on the driver's side and the opposite way on the passenger's side. This creates additional drag.
I would like to see you test different brands of air filter on this truck. K&n, fram, wix, etc to see which gives the best MPG. I would really like to see if you could get 30 mpg out of that truck.
I also wonder what effect those mud flaps have on the mpg
I think Project Farm did a cool video on air filters.
@@ALMX5DP He did. He basically concluded K&N filters do flow "better" than others (which is only relevant if your intake restriction is actually the air filter - many are not), but were terrible for actually filtering the air.
My biggest issue with the Ram mirrors is that they do not heat the bottom mirror. Using the 2500’s for plow trucks and needing to scrape ice off the bottom mirror while the top is heated is beyond irritating.
It also makes pulling trailers in the winter more difficult when you can’t see the trailer while making turns. I don’t understand why Ram doesn’t address this. Rant over.
used 2.18 gallons first time around with mirrors fown then . 2.80 with mirrors up. big difference , need a another run or 2 though
Nice video. I now know why every HD dodge I see going down the road has the mirrors flipped up. I would love to see the same test on a 2500 or 3500 diesel. I suspect the difference will not be very noticeable.
A short fill after the first run will screw you twice. It will make that trip look better than it really is, AND it will make the next trip look worse than it really is (assuming 2nd fill is normal)
Look at the shoulder room. Compare to Nathan’s new Hyundai. Shoulder to Shoulder test.
Another thing to do for a better test is to accelerate the vehicle at the same rate on each loop. A consistent acceleration rate on each loop is needed to assure consistent results on each test loop.
Guys, do another test comparing driving the speed limit and driving 5mph under the speed limit!
Everyone keeps saying y’all are driving too fast to get good fuel economy, so why not test that? How much of an improvement will slowing just 5 mph give???
If you average the to runs you get 22.8mpg, a lot closer both ways to what the truck calculated. At 57miles and 2-3 gallons, a pint (one beer) difference in the filling up can swing the hand calculated mpg 1.5 points. What probably happened was the mirror-in fill-up was short and the mirror-out fill-up was to the top. We are talking about the nozzle being inserted into the tank 1/2" further and the pump running 2 seconds longer. The tests need to be more miles to reduce the effect of fill up inconsistents and idle time.
Can you guys do all the variables? Ideal vs tow mirrors up, chin spoiler removed, under inflated tires, and any other "Let's Find Out" variables?
Just did a trip from Virginia to Texas, I was curious so I put my moose mirror's out on the way down I avereged 13.6 mpg, on the way back with stuppy mirrors I averaged 18.1 mpg. They make a big difference.
I don't believe that at all.
@@jimbeam2705 I don't care what you believe, numbers don't lie people do.
@@jimbeam2705 that's the truth mirrors in save mileage 👍🛻
The direction of prevailing wind during those runs likely made a big difference in the mileage too.
@@LocalGarage that could be, but unless you try it for yourself you won't know for sure. So please take a trip and let me know what you find👍
You guys should do an mpg loop with different trailer profiles that weigh roughly the same too see the difference in that.
Since you have also a 2500 ram diesel. You should make a test run on that one also since it has the same side mirrors. Maybe that would prove something.
🤣 This is nuts. I don't buy the 1st MPG #'s. Something was way off about that to start. But that's ok. If it was 100% accurate, there would be nothing to talk about. Now do the "Let's Find Out" loop with a hitch receiver on and off. 🤣
I gotta give this a try on my power wagon.