This 1980s Turbo Coupe was Built By McLaren and Pontiac
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- Опубліковано 21 лип 2024
- This is one of those instances where unless you've owned one or know someone who did this car has gone completely under the radar. These Pontiac Grand Prix Turbos were beasts during the time and I'm glad I could share with you all what I learned about them. This wasn't some out-of-the-ordinary one-off project between McLaren and Pontiac. This was a genuine production car offered from 1989 to 1990. One of my favorite aspects of these cars was the interior; especially those seats!
Thank you all for watching!
TIMESTAMPS:
0:00 -Intro
1:00 -Grand Prix Overview/Context
3:16 -Grand Illusion Prototype
3:53 -The Team: ASC/McLaren
5:20 -Engine/Specs
7:08 -Exterior
7:53 -Interior
9:27 -Final Thoughts/Replacement
10:56 -Outro
Special thanks to: / @wbodytech
Music: Fractals by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
DISCLAIMER:
Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing."
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GM literally lost its soul when they axed Pontiac.
Agreed!!!!
Yes! It was a sad year! 2010 😢
GM literally would've destroyed the world to keep Pontiac from continuing to embarrass Chevy's engineers, esp when it came to the Vette. They richly deserve their fall from world dominance to total irrelevance.
Nah man Pontiac was just an uglier Chevy in the end there.
Post 08 recession GM had to get rid of a brand. Buick was and still is a strong seller in the Chinese market. Not saying I liked their decision, but it all came down to what division was going to make them the most money with minimal effort. The Pontiac line could have been revamped into something really great and profitable in this country, but that would have been a long term project. They needed to do something short term to free up capital and stop their loses. Things done from a financial standpoint usually are soulless.
Green Hawk, this was a great review of the Grand Prix. The 2.8 was a V6, not a four-cylinder.
The 2.8L V6 was also the motor in the Fiero GT.
What a crazy, magical era. I really miss all those amazing 2-door coupes from so many manufacturers. ASC was also responsible for manufacturing the C4 Corvette's convertible top.
1:44 The 2.8 is a v6
Nice, I had the 2.8 in my 6000.
Yes, the 2.8 is a V6.
You do a great job, well done! Two things: 1) The 2.8L was a 6 cyl, not 4, and 2) GM didnt send Gorbachev the GP, it was the (I believe) Long Island Pontiac dealers.
Definitely a 6 had one in my 88 cutlass and a 3.1 in a 91 gp se
The only GM 4 cylinder I can think of at the time around that displacement was the 2.5L "Iron duke".
@@orusandornots1915or the 2.4 quad four
It was long island, i still see a few around
I really enjoy mid to late 80s designs. The lines are just beautiful and simple. Clean, but tasteful
If the back end was extended by another foot, would have been a stunningly beautiful car. The back looked short and stubby. Ashame. They were so close.
Excellent!!! Love these cars! I played in a hard rock band with a dude who had one of these. I was a teen so it was mid to late 90s so it wasn’t all that old at the time. I remember getting in it and the steering wheel had like 200 buttons on it. Back in the day, more buttons ya had, the cooler your car was. Seems right opposite now. If ya have buttons now, you drive a Mirage.
Right on brother!
I still own my 89 turbo. It's a fun car to drive. I only have 59k miles on mine. Everything is original still
So you never drive it?
Great video! I kinda lusted after this when I was 15/16 back in 1989 and 1990 but always felt it was a wannabe next to the Thunderbird SC. The Ford was rwd vs fwd, offered a manual and a boatload more torque. It also looked much better IMO. The Pontiac on the other hand offered the HUD and other electronic gizmos and way too many buttons. The seats were quite comfortable in both. One thing you missed, though, was the Buick 3.8 liter turbo in the limited run 1989 T/A GTA. It was more powerful than the Chevy 5.7 V8. You can look up Car and Driver's article on it. Keep the fantastic videos coming!
In its day, the 3.8 V6 supercharged in the T Bird SC was seriously torquey. Much more impressive than this Turbo V6.
2:00 those seats look so comfy!
I remember the “wider is better” ad campaign Pontiac ran back then. The turbo GP is definitely wide. Crazy how the rear lifts on hard braking though. It is common to see FWD race cars carry the rear tire through a corner.
If you ever have seen Tommy boy you can watch the rear wheels hopping when they slam on the brakes. On that muscle car they take on the road trip. These are visibly lifted off the ground. But axle hop had been around although to be fair not common at all by this time to be that extreme. Usually it's contact patch basically isn't contacting however just barely this is crazy. Imagine when the suspension ages how much it will squat.
@@toka100 I think they should’ve given it the same AWD system that they put in the Pontiac 6000 STE or whatever it was called.
@@stoneylonesome4062 yah that would have made it almost the perfect car.
Very underrated era of cars. One of My favorite GM cars of the early late 80’s early 90’s has to be the Chevrolet Beretta GTZ. Looks made up for the lack of power.
I definitely agree with you on that one. I thought I had died and went to heaven when I got my very first one. Mind you up until then I drove a Chevette so to me it was the fastest most beautiful car ever. Can you say "Apples and oranges"😂👍🇨🇦🔧
Agreed...people forget too these era cars werent high horsepower....none of them...300+ horsepower was exotic
the 2.3 was pretty quick for a n/a 4 banger, its like 10hp less than the modern 2.5 vvt di
The GTZ had the LG0 High Output Quad 4. That was 180HP, which was solid for a naturally aspirated 4 cylinder in the early 90s. A cam swap and a different ePROM and you’re pushing 200.
I love seen these cars on the road. Last week I saw an 80s Dodge Dynasty and it made my day.
I've owned 3 TGP'S and they are so much fun. Most I've gotten out of stock everything was 277hp before the trans decided to leave the chat. Pretty impressive for a 33yr old car
I’ve wanted one of these since I was a kid
For me; Pontiac, especially the 3rd generation Firebird Trans-Am V8 T-Top was a really beautiful and unforgettable car.
And i don’t care about that electric toys some people call them cars of the future, The real carguys in the world needs brand new non-turbo V8 Pontiacs again.
Is your profile picture a Jeep 5.9?!
@@GreenHawkDrive Exactly! :)
I swear this channel is a hidden gem, you will be a big channel one day brother!
Thank you man! I’m excited for the future.
My favorite of the GP Era, remember seeing a Gold McLaren GP at the Imperial Palace Auto Museum in Vegas. had several dents on it too.
Specifically the 1989 turbo is very good looking ! Those fender cladding looked incredibly nice !
Fantastic! I enjoyed the video and the information. I liked the footage and your effort in putting this video together. I noted your work on the information as well. Exellent. I smiled all the way through the video. Pontiac Excitement indeed! The Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme offered a heads up display as well as the Bonneville SSE. My Toronado has the VIC you shared in the video. High tech indeed. Great job!
Fantastic video as always, love these cars!
Thanks a lot!
Very detailed informative piece with wholesome information and backstory to this quite interesting vehicle,
Good piece! Thanks for the content.
Thanks for watching man!
Glad you mentioned the seats. I rode in a '91 GTP, and they were remarkably comfortable. They felt like a well crafted chair, I recall.
Grand Prix was car of the year in 88. The thunderbird SC was car of the year in 89.
Great job as always! Seeing that quick reference to the lumina z34 brought back memories. Haven’t seen one on the road in decades
Thank you man! Did you own one?
@@GreenHawkDrive nah.. but my next door neighbor had one. I would stare at in the drive as I left every morning in my chevette ( if it started) going to my minimum wage job . 😞 😆
Thanks for posting. If I knew of this car I forgot.
Always loved the way these looked . ❤
Great video ! Love your channel 👌👍👍👍
Thank you so much 👍
Gotta love that gated drums on that “rock” Pontiac commercial lol. Love the optional manual transmission and of course the McLaren modification. The plastic cladding is too much
I had a 1988 GTA Trans Am with the 5.7 liter. It had those gold snowflake wheels. Yes, they were a pain to keep clean!
The snowflake wheel was a 2nd gen wheel.
The 3rd gen wheel option was technically called "crosslace diamond spoke"
just sayin
I had the 89 gta trans am
@@joshriver75I had a Fiero with the same crosslace design. And yes, pain in the ass to keep brake dust off of.
outstanding content my brother!!
I appreciate that, thank you!
I had the 2.8 6 cyl. In my 89 Grand Prix. I loved that car. Put 327,284 miles when I traded it in. Still got a Grand off my trade in. Mine was med. garnet red, Aero II mag wheels, the Mustang hood scoop l fitted to it really looked good on it.
A friend got one for graduation in 1989 and I always thought it was a really cool car. He ended up putting a stereo that he competed with.
Excellent video. Good job.
Thank you very much!
Great vid man
Thank you, I appreciate that
I don’t think it’s the Same McLaren that makes Hypercars - I think it’s the one associated with American Sunroof Company that makes turbos and other components.
You are correct.
Nope. It was and is related to the real McLaren. But that doesn’t mean they did anything special here. More like sticker package than anything legit.
@@IcelanderUSerHuh? It's got Forged rods, different heads, intake, different metal mix in the block casting, turbo etc.. 140 hp up to 205 after significant increase what kind of stickers add 70 hp?
It definitely was the same McLaren as in the McLaren 720s, Speedtail...ect
@averyparticularsetofskills no it wasn’t. Google it. It’s not the same,l
Loved the way they looked!!!
I had 2 of these. There was an engineer named Jeff M that sold a kit for these, which was an improved downpipe (stock one cracked) and a tune for the ECU. I don't know the hp numbers but he got more out of it.
Most importantly today, the Powermaster 3 brake booster is now unobtainable. A conversion is required to drive these cars if that brakes, which it always does.
My mother had a friend who had one of these. I thought it was cool because the interior was so "hi-tech" with the digital display and stuff. She also had that thing in the shop constantly as I remember always being late to practice because my mother had to drop her friend off from work.
I had one of these motors stuffed into an 88 cavalier z24, 5spd & cranked up the boost to 14psi.. was insane
Very informative video! I have a 1989 that I've owned since 2007. Many things I have read or watched on these cars has been filled with misinformation. You definitely did your research here and it shows.
I 5 speed swapped my car a number of years ago. The Getrag 282 that was available in the non turbo 2.8 5 speed cars is pretty much a direct swap. I also got rid of the problematic PM3 all electronic ABS system and replaced it with standard non ABS vacuum brakes. The car is a LOT more fun to drive with a manual transmission.
Interior colors were tan and gray. Gray is more rare and black exterior is more rare. A black 1989 car with gray cloth is the rarest combination. The CD player was only available in 90. There were also a few interior changes between 89 and 90. Different buttons for the headlights and wipers, different information center, slightly different seat pattern and the Performance Sound button was dropped for 90.
They also made ~1000 4 door versions in 1990 called the TSTE. Available in maroon and white. VERY few of those still exist today.
All cars came without a spoiler. But, many have been added to them over the years.
The turbo is a Garrett T25, but other turbos can be swapped on.
The 3.1 can take a fair amount of power, assuming it's mated to a Getrag 282/284. The automatic can't hold up to much more than factory horsepower and boost for to long.
There was a decent amount of aftermarket parts available back in the day. However, they are tough to find now. I do know a guy who will still tune the MEMCAL. I had it done when I did the swap.
If you have any specific questions feel free to ask! They are fun and quirky cars and VERY "of the time".
They can take a bit to keep running though as the turbo setup complicated what was otherwise a very simple and reliable drivetrain. Turbo specific parts are also extremely difficult to find anymore.
God bless you buddy. I remember those, they were cool looking.
It’s always nice to hear from owners of the cars I talk about. Thank you for commenting.
I’ve had my 90 TGP since 1993. Only 66K miles on it. Haven’t driven it for about 10 years, covered up in garage. The PM3 braking system is so bad, braking feels super spongy and don’t feel safe driving it. Also the brake lines leak underneath the car, hoping to do the same thing and replace it with standard non-ABS one. Still have a full set of gold Turbo emblems someone remade, waiting to put those on once my TGP is back on the streets one day. Curious, how much was the swap from PM3 to non-ABS?
Revive that thing man!
I had a 89... omg one of my favorite cars. Remember spirited driving mine with 2 Ferrari 328's outside Philly on the turnpike..
This and the Fox body are amazing designs. Timeless.
100%
Imagine living through those times, the 80’s were something else, the 90’s were great!!! 911 sucked but we bounced back, Oboma happened and at first it seemed like a good thing, then we saw.
Had a 91 that was identical to thumbnail in appearance except silver instead of gold wheels. Did not have the turbo unit. N/A 3.4 No mods. It ran strong. I got a bunch of compliments on the looks. Comfy seats. HUD. Pontiacs had LOTS of buttons.
10:50 the raw truth about the car and i agree
One of my neighbors has one of these. Its never moved in the past 20 years. Still red with gold rims. Just sits in an open garage.. covered in dust and partially surrounded by boxes.
This car was the definition of late 1980s
Well done
Thank you
Awwwwwsome Episode 😎👍🏽👍🏽
Appreciate that man!
Im glad somebody corrected that mention of 2.8 four cylinder it was clearly a v6 the well known 60° v6 which later was enlarged to 3.1 and 3.4 liter and eventually 3.5
The Ponyiac Grand Prix! My Favorite car of all time!
Fascinating. As a Brit, these have gone under my radar completely. Good looking car. Not so sure about the QC though when the buttons are pushed on that binnacle at 08:15. You can see why the Germans started making inroads into this market around this time. I wonder how many of these are still on the road. Hopefully plenty, but it's an unloved period so who knows?
the 3.1 is such a good engine, they've put them in a ton of vehicles and man can they take a beating.
had my first 3.1 in a 93 chevy lumina, my first car (victim). after that i worked on 3 of them in different buicks my grandmother had, century 2000ish. she blew a head gasket in two of them and overheated them beyond belief, with steam literally blowing out the side of the head still running lol. the heads never warped and with some new gaskets and head bolts it was back up and running like nothing ever happened. they weren't slow either for the size of vehicle they were put into.
Intake manifold gaskets were really their only weak point.
I never knew Pontiac sent a Grand Prix to the USSR! Great vid Hawk! You definatwly addressed why these were not around long. GMs 3.4 one upped it without the need for turbos...The SHO was quicker too.
gm had to detune the 3.4 from 270 to 210hp because they didnt have any transmission that held the power, it would have been quicker than the sho but they failed
I had no idea either. Such a bizarre thing I came across and had to mention it😂 Thank you as always!
You nailed it when you said "slipped thru the cracks"...honest to goodness!!! GM's marketing was a disaster in those days!!! Talk about nailing your own coffin shut!! GM was a bunch of fat cats that let the minions run the show and BOOM, all of a sudden, GM once again behind the 8 ball, kind of like today's version of GM. (insert sad face here)
Poor GM C.E.O. Roger E. Smith, C.E.O. from 1981-90, was one of only a few men in Detroit who saw Toyota and Honda coming!!! And the other divisions just could not WAIT for him to leave town!!
That's crazy for some reason I had my head that they always use the 3.8 L in these cars. They certainly should have as that is a bulletproof engine.
I drive a 95 grand prix daily, while not a mclaren its still a great car, Love this generation of GP.
The Grand Prix Turbo was the first GM car to have an HUD. I owned one back in 1997 black.
Yes, the buttons were outrageous then. There was a particular change during that time (features?), and they loaded that car. Now, features/buttons are concealed in submenus, so there are many buttons, now, too.
Josh and Sam made me want one
Had a 91 Grand Prix se and I wanted to swap in the turbo from 90 so bad but they were had to find in decent shape.
The stock wheels most didn’t realize were made by Enki so while they were a pain to clean I could say I had enki wheels 😂 my 91 Grand Prix se had all of these same body upgrades and it’s headlights were inset and made the front look way better. If it had turbo engine it would of been the best of both worlds then. Oh and that pass through panel worked like a huge port making the trunk a big subwoofer enclosure making my subwoofers hit so much harder. I cracked my front window during winter time on accident.
😂
I think it's a beautiful car I enjoyed mine I had a wide body it wasn't a turbo but I erased a turbo in my RX7 Turbo 2 and 1990 from Missouri to Minnesota and we did it in 3 and 1/2 hours through Des Moines and I was doing 175 and it was keeping up with me it might have been a John player special
Mentioning the front wheel drive gran prix without talking about the completely bad ass Supercharged 3.8 GTP should be a felony.
I can’t help but really like this car. So good to see buttons over touch screens too. Going into endless menus within car systems to do the most basic of things seems like regression to me, not progress. It’s illogical to do something that takes longer than pressing a button or turning a knob. As you can tell I’m triggered by touch screen / no button options.
Any car guy in the 90s will remember these 3.1s as having a lot more bark than bite. They sounded so sweet with that characteristic burble but they were total dogs. I used to own the black one with the gold wheels, it was a real head turner and yes the wheels were a b*tch to clean.
I had one of those, 94 maybe. SFI 3.1 and that thing had independent rear suspension, with spindles and tie rods in the back. Thought those all had a cheap axle with coils and shocks.
I was a teenager when this car came out so I was watching cars pretty heavily and I don't remember this one. Iroc-z, trans Am, of course 5.0 mustangs. Even the typhoon and cyclone we knew of. Turbo ta? yes ,Kid in high School had one. Turbo Grand Prix? Nope never heard of it till now.😅
I wonder why that is. Maybe they didn’t market this car. Someone mentioned how GM struggled with their marketing tactics during this time.
pointing out that it is NOT the Mclaren we know as in the european brand and racing team, but a wholly different american company that also did several other vehicles in the US... so it's...not rly that interesting when you realize that in the end it's nothing special
True. Before they were in Europe in F1 Bruce McLaren founded a racing development shop in Michigan. The idea was to build engines for Indy and Can-Am racing, while F1 testing was done on the other side of the Atlantic. By the 1980s, most of the work had shifted to the U.K. So it is the same name just before they got famous in F1
I paused at 1:06 to go eat and of course, theres my car! I had an 82 GP ...with a Ford engine LOL.
I only recently found out abotu the Pontiac McLaren cars, and saw one on FB Marketplace, but dear Lord was it rough. Pontiac really had a bad depreciation problem, as well as lets say a police high speed pursuit image problem (those Grand Ams...they were the Altimas of their day LOL)
I still love Pontiac, and cant wait for them to come back!
and im coming back to watch the rest. Love your channel!
Now I want a W Turbo Grand Prix. I love the buttons, and screens. I wish cars still did that.
I appreciate that man thank you!
@2:10 the Gran Prix was MotorTrend Car of the year in 1988. The 1989 Car of the year was the Ford Thunderbird SuperCoupe.
The common color of this generation was white, and the body style was initially drab. The magazine _High Performance Pontiac_ described them as "looking like a used bar of soap" - which did sum it up quite well.
It was not an engine power making problem that limited the car to 220hp. It was the automatic transmission limits.
I would like to see one of these videos on the Buick Riatta. That was a sweet car back in the day.,
Another UA-cam by the name of @autochatter recently made an entire video on it!
I feel like the last time I even saw one of these was in Saints Row where it was used a gang car for the Vice Kings.
I tell people about this car all the time and they think I'm joking lol
I wonder what happened to the car sent to Gorby. I had a 1991 Grand Prix LE. I bought it from the scrap yard for 650$ . Did some repairs and sold it for 1500$ it was awesome!
A video about the Acura Vigor would be cool
I’ve never heard of those to be honest. Had to look it up and they are pretty neat!
Its weird but sometimes I think about this car.
I thought the late 80's turbo pontiacs were some of the coolest looking cars made...ever!
Correction. The 2.8L was a six cylinder, not a four. It was later enlarged to the 3.1L.
I wish i could get pics of one
Mid 80s through the 90s, as someone already said here, was the peak of car design IMO.
The Corvette halo car kills everything.. Pontiac could have done so more. A wide trac awd gp supercharged or turbo with 4.3 out of the cyclone . Would of been 😈😈😈
Would have liked an all wheel drive system with this. Also a twin cam NOT run by belts. The 3.4 was a cbain running two belts. Why didn't they just do entirely chains? Cheaper I guess, urgh.
1988 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme Vehicles "Mirrored" All Those Vehicles.
(I Tried to Keep TheOne I Was to "Inherit".😒)
1:31 The Sunbird GT gets upgraded with 14" GoodYear Eagle tires!! I laugh at people who need to wrap their heads around the fact that 13" tires were Standard equipment on compact cars in the 80's and WELL into the 90's. Hell, I think my 1987 Chevy Celebrity EuroSport midsize sedan had 14" tires standard!!! That was a Big Deal!!!😎😅🤣Anyway Green Hawk, that body cladding or what I call bodyside molding at 7:33 is what we talked about like a month ago. And I don't care what anyone says. The "W" body platform was one of the GREATEST Inventions of Mankind EVER!!!!! I had a woman coworker who was a proud owner of a Grand Prix. I recall them being popular with the ladies as well. At least in ChicagoLand. My bff from High School's parents had a Lumina. My college schoolmate had a Cutlass Supreme, which got rear-ended and poor car totaled. ALL of them were just Unforgettably AWESOME Cars!!!!!😎😎😁😁
I Do Not understand how Pontiac was on Top Of The Automotive World in the 90's, (ok maybe it Was behind Red-Hot Chrysler). I know they couldn't build the Grand Am's fast enough 'cuz they were ALL!!! OVER the ChicagoLand/NorthWest Indiana region. Another of my coworkers bought one!! And just over a decade later, they were through. I think the Final Generation and radically downsized GTO did NOT help at All!!!!!
While unfortunately they weren’t gold; I had black mesh wheels on my Fiero, and let’s just say quadruple the spokes, quadruple the time 😂
its so crazy pontiac used to be on top and less than 20years later it no longer exists
Should’ve axed Buick instead
@@GreenHawkDrivethat's what we wanted, but it really didn't make sense to GM, they just shut olds down so they needed a mid level "luxury" brand, i personally would never consider buick as luxury but tell that to china
@@GreenHawkDrive american gov at the time has sent half of american factories to china, buick was a big hit, thats the only reason they kept that brand, its not even for american people, people here buys a name, they been told that gm is not cool so whatever gm do, no one wants a premium gm, they dont even look at the cars, its like apple and starbucks, very crappy products but genxers and their kids are so basic and been told that its cool so they buy the name without asking questions, it even applies to brand new toyota, that brand makes junks since the covid, people still thinks its super reliable and never breaks, which its not the case at my dealer, very very crappy product overall
What about the AMG Honda civic?
1995 Oldsmobile Royale LSS
Those cars were str8 P.O.S FROM THE FACTORY!!!!
You’ve owned one?
People say that we have a lot of cool cars now, because power levels are at all time highs. No, the coolest cars have been on the roads for decades now. Yes, modern cars are safer and more eco friendly and blah, blah, blah. But today's cars are not breaking any new grounds in any exciting ways. By the end of the 1980s, the U.S. auto makers were starting to find their groove again. The original Ford Taurus was ground breaking and the SHO took the car to a whole new level. The Grand Prix getting a turbo 3.1 liter V6 that put the V8 Trans Am on notice, we got some truly cool, under-the-radar stuff that gets scoffed at now because the cars do not shout to the world what they are capable of. I hate modern performance packaged cars, because you get a bunch of boy racer crap tacked on to scream to the world you have the best version of a vehicle. I want the return of sleeper performance vehicles.
I totally respect what you’re saying man. Dodge in the 2000s slapped a Viper engine in a truck, that’s pretty sick😂
One just sold on Bring a Trailer a few months ago. I believe it went for around $20k. I had no idea this existed! I had a Olds Cutlass Supreme International Edition which was similar. SUch a badass looking car, but man that steering wheel was awful.
I’ve never heard of that Olds edition. Could you tell me a little more about it? I have a series where I talk about obscure special editions and would like to hear from a viewer.
@@GreenHawkDrive I know I have seen several of them! It was a 1992 Olds Cutlass Supreme International. THey did not make many of these. I also had one in red, which was the rarest color I believe. It had a 5 speed transmission, leather interior, bucket seats in the front & back, power everything, sunroof. 3.4L V6. I know the rear of the car were the same parts used in a Corvette. I had every option except a CD player. It had a heads up display, and you can even switch from MPH to KM! I have plenty of photos if you're interested. I also have a video on my page: ua-cam.com/video/TBdKEbrd8rU/v-deo.html
@1:45 they came with a 2.8 liter 6 cylinder, not 4 cylinder. Love the videos, just wanted to correct that.
Yeah, that was a mistake on my behalf. I appreciate that, thank you!
All based off a Buick V-6 if I may add!!!!!!!
Pontiac's were cool back in those days don't know what happened.
Why not use the engine in the Turbo Trans Am?
Great question. Does anyone have an answer?
The problem with performance model FWDs was torque steer.
Definitely. That’s why people picked the SCs over these.
Dont forget the sunbird gt turbo