@@dennis1662your right, when your on death row you ain't going to buy off the judge for the wages of sin is death. What would you like for your last meal?
@@richardjackson7887 at the end they are both wrong. Happy to be Protestant, I am happy to be catholic but more important happy that Jesus gave his life for our sin and through him salvation. John 13:35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another
@@JuanGonzalez-kb3gm Colossians 2:12-19 KJV Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19. And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
@@ricardooliveira9774 well, he has one planned with William Albrect, I believe, on Sola Fide. His debates with Shabir Ali (the only Muslim who dare debate him) and Unitarians are stormers. Can't wait to learn from this one
2 years down the line and this video is still changing lives and granting peace to those burdened by this. I made it all the way til the end. Thank you Dr Ortlund. I appreciate you, my family appreciates you. God bless you and your family
The great thing about these discussions is not that they will change Catholic minds, but that they lay everything out on the table, so that an honest person--without prior commitments to either side--can view the information and judge for themselves.
1 Timothy 4:1-5 ESV [1] Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, [2] through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, [3] who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [4] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, [5] for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer. The Catholic mind is often times seared. Salvation is till possible for them as long was they're not trying to work themselves into heaven. Some believe that and some don't. The problem is when you give full authority to the church you pretty much have to sign off on everything they do whether you like it or not. Many Catholics will say well yea we've done this or done that in the past, but I don't personally believe this. But in reality the some of the Catholic councils and dogmas aren't charitable enough to let individuals decide for themselves. There are clear rules and anathemas that you're not supposed to challenge or reject.
2 years later and this video is still changing lives. Thank you for service sir. I have been grappling with this for a long time and you know its God's work when it produces peace in your heart, that peace which is beyond understanding, the peace that only a child feels when he/she openly trusts a father. This is how it should be, to feel like a child again and trust in the God that laid down His life for us. For the believer: " Today, you shall be with me in paradise. "
Watched to the end! Man I have never seen anyone be as thorough as you do, even when you are summarizing something. It really is refreshing to have a voice from the Protestant side.
When I read 'A Grief Observed' by CS Lewis one of the most heartbreaking parts, to me, is when Lewis is wrestling with his belief in purgatory. People were telling him that his deceased wife was in a better place and he didn't believe them because he thought she was being punished. He was given a heavier weight of grief and had less hope because he held this misguided doctrine. It's a sad misunderstanding of what Jesus accomplishes for his people.
Scripture nowhere teaches that every Christian fully partakes in the beatific vision the moment they die. This is one reason God’s people have always prayed for the dead (Judaism, early church, EO, and Catholics today). 1 Corinthians 3:13. It is your opinion that is misguided, pastor. Christ completing sanctification after death in no way undermines his work, mercy, or burning love 🔥.
@@pastorzhhicks Thanks pastor. Here I thought your view was true because you went to “Bible college”. Never mind that the early church that assembled your Bible was Catholic, in its liturgy and practice, and prayers for the dead were offered.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 That's a very interesting view you have there. It appears you also don't understand the origins of the Bible, in addition to your other misunderstandings. You've labeled yourself a goat, I guess that'll have to suffice. Take care.
@@pastorzhhicks And you’ve labeled yourself a pastor. The goat name is a silly fantasy football joke for guys on those chats who are bombastic … I appreciate you enjoying it. What I told you is what history records, pastor. Are you teaching your folks something different? The New Testament was assembled by Catholic bishops and their worship was a Eucharist sacrifice that included prayers for the dead. I don’t think I misunderstood anything, I think you’re used to teaching people something you believe strongly and it being accepted as truth even if you have no evidence to support it. As is the case here. “For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church” - Augustine. Why do you imagine that ancient faiths of the east and west (Rome and Orthodox) are both centered around a Eucharistic liturgy that includes prayers for the dead? 🤔
I was raised Evangelical Protestant and became Catholic 10 years ago. I just want to say thank you for making this without it being "Catholic bashing ". Your respectful approach to the differences is refreshing
Born and raised a Catholic, it took me years of bible study to reach this same conclusion. If we hold to purgatory, what we say is that the sufferings of Christ, and His sacrificial atonement are "not enough" to cleanse us. I feel that this point alone excludes any consideration of the belief, and borders on heresy.:
that is protestant doctrine, but the sins can be forgiven, the condequence of our sins remain with us, every stain must be cleansen, if u belive in hell as a catholic then are u saying that no one can go to hell?
@@washingtonman375 i understand Christ payed for our sin, original sin or man's tendency to sin. protestant doctrine sees that Christ payed for our sins.
@@orionsoars9953 Hell and Purgutory are two different things. Hell is for the damned, never for the saved! Paul says when Christ appears the dead are raised, and we are changed, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye". Nothing about long periods of time being "cleansed". Sin is in the body. Our spirits are "born again". Once you're out of the body, you are separated from sin. The blood of Christ cleanses our souls completely..there is nothing left to do.
@lastchance8142 not all Protestants believe in regenerative grace, either through Baptism or otherwise. Forensic Justification doesn't permit for any purification of the Christian soul before or after death.
"Forty days " was the season of Lent (length), which comes between the winter solstice and the spring equinox, when the days are growing longer, and the nights shorter; when the sins (Sun's S. declination) of the world (year) are being purged off, and come to nought (0) as the Sun reaches the equator. This was the purgatory of the ancients, during which a fast was kept, and is still kept by many of the moderns, in imitation of nature, to purge off their sins! The last month of the year, and the one more particularly observed was named February, from februare, to purge; because, at the end of this mouth the Sun was found at the spring equinox; and having no declination, his sins are all gone. (Roman calendar). The sacred year/world begins and ends at the spring equinox. The new religious year begins with "Let there be light". The ancients held two festivals at opposite points of the ecliptic; one, the anagogia, or going-up of the Sun, at the spring equinox (this was the Passover of the Jews); the other the katagogia or going-down of the Sun, at the fall equinox; this was the ingathering of the Jews. This "forty days” was also styled by the Alchemists a “philosophical month." (Bees' Cyclopaedia, art. Month.) The Dove's station was near Purgatory, i.e., near the spring equinox, at which time she returns to us, the inequalities of the days and nights having been purged off. (Faber, Pag. Idol, vol. 3, p. 343.)
@@kang7348nothing wrong with many denominations. As long as the denomination is biblical and preaches the gospel. Much better than having to be part of a church that kisses statue toes and prays to dolls and figurines. No thanks. IM glad i can attend a beautiful church that teaches what apostles taught. Who btw didn't teach praying to mary 👍
I know that it's been at least 2 years since you first aired this, but I wanted to say that I did listen to the very end. I am grateful that you diligently researched the early sermons of the church leaders and presented that information in such a straightforward way. I never understood how my Roman Catholic friends ended up with a doctrine that contradicts scripture. It's clearly because they trusted men and did not study God's true word to see their own error. It's truly sad.
I’m so grateful for your channel Dr Ortlund. Your input on why going deep in the history of the church in no way is to accept Romanism or Greek Orthodox. Please continue with the great ministry!
Listened to the end. As a former Catholic this is immensely helpful. I would like to add that my mother is Catholic and 90 years old. Purgatory weighs heavy on her heart and this breaks my heart.
Better purgatory than hell. I will be happy to spend time in purgatory until I am clean and can see the face of God, because nothing unclean will see His face.
@raphaelfeneje486 Jesus himself said those in him will never be lost. If you don't trust that then sorry, there's nothing that the false doctrine of purgatory can help.
@@addjoaprekobaah5914 You don't just read without understanding. There's a reason you've got eyes. I'm praying for someone that believes in purgatory that the eyes of her understanding be enlightened. You are here telling me I believe in purgatory. Are you serious?😕
Thank you. Did listen through whole. I have been a little bit struggling with seeing all Catholic and orthodox UA-camrs saying: this is this and this is that. You comforted me.
Watched it all! Amazing breakdown. I’ve been taking notes, capturing screenshots, and building an overview of this. It’s so important to be able to communicate why, as a Protestant, I reject the accretions that have become dogmas in the Catholic Church. Particularly when there is very little to no scriptural basis for these crucial theological ideas. I shed a couple tears at Stephen the Martyr, at the thought that any believer has the full assurance of the gospel behind them and while at the point of death can say, “Jesus, receive my spirit.” Thank you! Keep doing what you do, please.
I'm Catholic, I like and respect you Dr. Ortlund for the way you address these issues. I look forward to Trent Horn's response to this, and I ultimately look forward to your discussion with him if there will ever be. God bless you.
Already 10 mins in and I’m already happy that he corrected the 3 misconceptions of purgatory that popular non catholic Christians keep saying even though they did their research.
Thank you so very much! Those of us who are drawn to Rome or Orthodoxy tend to be good students of history and we understand why it’s important. But we lack the tools and skills parse the data like you do. Your passion is evident and your enthusiasm is contagious! Please keep dispensing treasures from the top shelf for those of us who cannot reach!
Anglican here. If you love the liturgy without the accretions, the Anglican tradition may be a good fit for you. We consider ourselves as the reformed catholic church where the extremes of the medieval church are corrected.
I watched to the end. I wasn't bored for one minute. I appreciate your scholarship and your willingness to refute these long held man-made Catholic doctrines that developed over the centuries and are not grounded in the Bible or in the early church.
I watched till the end. This was amazing. I didn't know that there was so much diversity in the views of our early Church. I've found myself thinking about death far more frequently than I would consider normal, but even in that unease, I take the fact seriously that I will be with Christ for eternity when all is said and done.
Not only have I watched the video in its entirety, but I've watched and digested it twice! I cannot begin to thank you enough Gavin for the research and care you put into all your content. Kind regards, Richard.
Sent over by Mike Winger. Great discussion and I really appreciate your considerate treatment of the discussion. Watched the entire video; great work, sir!
Watched to the end! I love the pastoral conclusion, really gets to the practical damage on our spiritual lives the doctrine of purgatory can have and how comforting the true doctrine. As a Baptist missionary serving in a majority Roman Catholic context I find these Protestant/Catholic videos helpful
I love the Baptist denomination so much! I believe it has had the most and best impact on our still mostly evangelical country USA. Thanks for your missionary work!!😊
Ex catholic here. The issue of purgatory was the final nail in coffin for me to leave catholicism. It's such a massive insult to the finished work of Christ on our behalf. Why did Christ say "It is finished" on the cross if in fact anyone would have to suffer some sort of temporal punishment for their own sins? Simply put, the teaching on and belief in purgatory perverts the gospel. Thank you Dr. Ortlund for this video. 🤝
@clivejames5058 Mariology is just as bad in my opinion because it basically adds a 2nd gospel. Gavin does great videos talking about it. Plenty of great non-denominational churches, just test their doctrine with the Bible. Not all protestant churches are equal. We have our own crazies too.
@@michaelbush1374 Thank you. I converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism 20+ years ago now (being English) so the only Church I would go back to would be that one = although, during my research, I've been greatly impressed by the Orthodox Church (which the early Reformers seemingly wanted to go back to, getting rid of all the accretions of Rome). However, the nearest EO Church is a 7 hour drive away - so we'll see.
I watched all the way to the end. I have endured my time, and my ignorance has been purged. Actually, this was thrilling to engage with. I love the Christ-like pastoral heart behind it, that His sheep would have assurance of rest without fear of torment, grounded in the sufficiency of His righteousness and His sufferings alone.
Hello there, I'm a Pentecostal, got into the Church Fathers when I was about 16-17 and I've watched till the end of the video. Thanks and God bless you pastor.
Much appreciation for your video and how you lay out your findings! While I have several close Catholic friends and family who I deeply love and respect, purgatory is one of my fundamental disagreements with the Catholic Church. You could say my Baptist roots run deep, even if I have "branched out" to a non-denominational church... thankful too for the rootedness in truth and scripture! Found this channel through "Pints with Aquinas" and I'm so glad I did. (this is a year later, but I did in fact, watch to the end)
Oh goodness how encouraging - I’ve been binging on your videos during a two-day bout of Covid - and I watched all of this, taking notes. Death where is your sting, oh grave your victory!
Thanks for putting so much effort into this. I was Catholic for 30 years but am now firmly protestant and there's no going back. This is another example of catholicism adding to the simple teaching of scripture. I especially love how you refuted the claim that catholics often make that the Protestant church started in the 1500s. As you stated, protestantism was simply an effort to remove the accretions that had been added over the centuries that were unbiblical and in some cases downright evil. Like manipulating and taking advantage of poor grieving family members to donate money to get their loved ones out of purgatory. I am so appreciative everyday of the freedom that I now have in Christ, as opposed to constant guilt that I am not doing enough rituals and works to get into heaven. I am still a sinner and God is still working on me in this life to conform me to the image of his son, but my works do not earn me heaven. Now I understand it is only faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. I was taught so many things from Catholicism thy later found out to be completely untrue when I actually read the scripture and studied it. Based on my personal experience as a Catholic, I can't help believe that there are motivations behind the teachings that benefit and give power to their leaders. For instance, when you take away purgatory, the average person simply does not have the same fear and therefore doesn't need the men in long robes as much. Same thing with the Eucharist actually being Jesus. It benefits them to have everyone believe that only their ordained priests can turn the bread into Jesus. It all gives them more power over people and of course they have used this power to amass billions in cash in real estate. I have been studying scripture daily for the past 25 years and and now more convinced than ever that the Roman Catholic church went astray when the bishop of Rome seized power from the council of bishops. At that point it became an apostate church in my view.
Same here, ex catholic , left 30yrs ago and never looked back. It disgusts me, so much falsety and rituals. Galatians and Romans applies to that church. Sadly most of my family still in it.
@@missthunderstormable I don't mind the rituals now. Still a mere Christian, but I have been looking into Catholicism the last few years. It is a huge chunk of our church history as Christians, whatever branch we are now. I do agree w/ staza that there were many political power and greed motivations for some of the accretions. Gavin has been pretty careful to avoid delving into these types of motivations. I would like to hear more about what you 2 have learned coming from the inside. I am Catholic friendly though and ecumenism is very important to me. We have to see all the accretions in the protestant branches too, prosperity gospels, hyper charismatic, humanist, feminism, etc. Purgatory is one of the most disturbing things about Catholicism that would stop me from ever converting. Where the heck did it even come from? It's a huge addition. In Trent Horn's rebuttal, he played a clip from Father Josiah, an Orthodox priest. Ft. Josiah admitted that it is not spoken of in the NT, but yet the early church somehow knew about it. How convenient. Though Catholics do have that typical one scripture they stretch the heck out of to try and back it (the wood, hay, stubble scripture).
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Anglican here. If you love the liturgy without the accretions, the Anglican tradition may be a good fit for you. We consider ourselves as the reformed catholic church where the extremes of the medieval church are corrected.
You mentioned purgatory and eucharist which you find it adding them to scripture. Since you are an ex Catholic and a very matured person, I don't expect you to change your belief system. Any way, I'll give my opinion. 1. Purgatory. If the concept of purgatory is false, when do final sanctification or purification of a believer takes place such that he is fit to enter into God's presence? Is it at the born again event or at the moment of death or during burial or after death? 2. If Eucharist is not Jesus' body and blood, then you are making an image / symbol of the body and blood Jesus in the form of bread and wine which is against one of the 10 commandments of God. You are committing idolatry when you take communion. 3. If you are saved by faith alone exclusive of works, then the Devil too should be saved. Else, protestants have to redefine what is faith that saves. Protestants love saying, if you are saved by grace then it is not of work but if you are saved by works then it is no longer grace. By the same logic, protestants have a dilemma. If protestants are saved because Jesus paid the price of their sins, then they are not forgiven of their sins. And if their sins are forgiven, then Jesus' sacrifice had not paid the price of their sins. If the debt is paid, then, there is no forgiveness; or if the sins are forgiven then the debt of sin is not paid.
I watched it to the end wonderful! I used to be a Roman Catholic and always struggled with this teaching this help me solidify my belief that I will be with Jesus when I pass and also all believers
So helpful and so necessary. Thank you very much for your work, your obvious shepherds heart, and your enjoyment of sharing with us these treasures of history and their application. Two comments: First, I will be saving this and looking at it over and over to remember for my family: loved ones not saved, and young grandchildren who believe, but may later come to a place of needing assurance. Second, an Orthodox priest, who is a friend with whom I’ve enjoyed many theological conversations, was very concerned that I not believe in the doctrine of tollhouses that is still taught in some regions of the Orthodox Church.
I love how you dont oversimplify important issues like we're children who cant understand "grown-up talk." I think this is very helpful in seeing this area of faith has been grounds for speculation that muddied the waters. Continue the great work and do continue to treat opposing views with respect--much appreciated! Oh, and I watched to the end.
Me too! I find I often rewatch these videos and some parts I even rewatch several times until something I'm struggling with "clicks." I'd much rather that than be patronised.
I watched this all the way through. Thank you so much Gavin. This information was super helpful and inspires me to look deeper into other important topics like this!
I agree, this was well put together! Too bad more people couldn't be like this with a more open mind, and just present the facts, rather than try to sugar coat someone into a belief system.
Yet in all my experience of engaging in discussion and watching/listening to debates, I have NEVER heard any Catholic, much less a Catholic apologist, ever claim that the Catholic Church taught purgatory from the beginning.
@@TruthUnites Well, that’s a first for me. Never heard it put that way before. FYI, I came here per Catholic apologist Trent Horn’s endorsement of this being an intellectually honest channel albeit from a Baptist point of view. I’m about a third of the way through this, my first video, and it is living up to the endorsement.
Just finished. This was great and definitely not too long. It is good to be able to go in depth. The last 20 minutes or so about how we do not have to fear in the face of death was a beautiful presentation of the hope we have in Christ!
I also think about perfect love casts out all fear. There is no getting around the fear that purgatory would produce. I love your pastoral encouragement from scripture. Christ is enough, His grace sufficient! 💝
Fear, demoralization and hopelessness. This life it very hard, totally sucks at times. The only thing that keeps me going is looking forward to being w/ my Lord in heaven, where all suffering and tears finally end. But no, if you're Catholic, you can't look forward to that. You have to play grace hopscotch and hope you are in grace when you die. If you somehow manage all that, then you still have purgatory to look forward to instead of heaven. Christ's death doesn't really seem to count for much in Catholicism. CAtholics are constantly paying for their own sins. The RCC even teaches explicitly that Christ's atonement only deals w/ original sin, when we're born. Then we're staring our life of grace hopscotch.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Buddy, you have not make correct assessment of Catholic belief. Catholics know that we sin again and again in our thoughts and deeds; we sin for failure to do our duty. We are never perfect and so, we hope Jesus to cleanse us of all our impurities during purgatory do that we may out on glorified body and enter into God's presence. God expected us to be perfect like him. But Catholics recognise that we don't come close to that. And we don't try to justify our salvation or sanctification but we appeal to God's mercy and grace. We don't think God owed us. We don't expect God to keep his words when we don't keep ours. This being the reality, we look forward to his mercy and grace just because we strive our best to be his followers. We know that when Job could not justify himself before God even when he had unwavering faith, we cannot use Jesus name as an excuse because it will amount to using the name of the Lord our God in vain (abuse). We know that Jesus had atoned for the sin of the whole world but that does not justify that everyone must therefore be saved or that the sin of believers are paid in full for trusting in the finished work of Jesus. We know that our salvation depends on whether we are found worthy in Jesus' eyes or not. When we do internal reflection, we find that though we do our best to obey Jesus, we are far from perfection and hence we place our hope on Jesus' mercy and love for our salvation and for our glorification. We take seriously when Jesus said, not everyone who calls him Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven even if they preached and worked miracles in his name because they worked iniquity. We are not terrified but we are made concious that it is best to be humble before the Lord and seek his graciousness. We know we are just the clay and God is the Potter.
Divine Mercy doesn't exonerate a person from the need to be transformed. The Catholic Church acknowledges Christ’s sacrifice, and his sacrifice alone, to be of infinite value, and therefore able to appease the infinite justice of God. Or, as St. John tells us: … we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:1-2). The real question centers on how God willed for the fruits of that infinitely meritorious sacrifice to be communicated and applied to the lives of his people. This involves more than Christ’s sacrifice alone by divine design. Second, the idea that “[Jesus] accomplished everything that was necessary for our salvation on the cross,” in a strict sense anyway, is not what John 19:30 or the Bible in general teaches. If we examine the context leading up to this statement of our Lord, for example, we find Jesus to have already explained precisely what he claimed to have “finished.” On Holy Thursday-the day before he was to be crucified-in his famous high priestly prayer to the Father for all of humanity, Jesus prayed: I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work which you gave me to do; and now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world was made (John 17:4-5). Jesus says he “finished” everything the Father gave him to do on earth. In no way did he say there was and is nothing left both for him and mankind to do at all for salvation. Third, the Bible provides a litany of examples of the fact that both Jesus and we have much more to accomplish for our salvation when Jesus said, “It is Finished.” Jesus Had More to Do St. Paul obviously did not believe there was nothing left at all for Jesus to accomplish for our salvation/justification after Calvary because in Romans 4:25 he said: Jesus… was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification. Obviously, Jesus had not been “raised” from the dead yet when he said “it is finished.” The inspired author of Hebrews tells us Christ would also continue to “save those who draw near to God” until the end of time through his high priestly ministry at the right hand of the Father: But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them (7:24-25; see also Heb. 8:3; I Tim. 2:5). And clearly Jesus still had to send the Holy Spirit in order that the world might be saved. “He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, `Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'” Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:38-39). “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…” And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight (Acts 1:8-9). When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit… (Acts 2:1-4) In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (Eph. 1:13-14). He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life (Titus 3:5-7). We Have More to Do If you noticed above, I was careful to say Christ did not accomplish everything needed for man’s salvation on the cross in a strict sense. The Bible and the Catholic Church do teach Christians can be said to be saved/justified by grace alone in the sense that it is God alone, and therefore, God’s grace alone, that is the first cause of our salvation (cf. Titus 3:5-7; Eph. 2:8-9). So, in that sense, we can say “Jesus did it all for us” though not just on the cross, but by his entire life, death, burial, resurrection, and priestly ministry at the right hand of the Father (cf. CCC 517). But when it comes to the application of those merits into the lives of real human beings, the Bible makes it equally clear that we are also “justified by works,” “obedience,” our “words,” our “faithful[ness],” and more. All of this on man’s end must be empowered by God’s grace in order to be meritorious before God, but in examining just some few of these texts we could consider below, we will discover in Scripture just what we find in CCC 2010: in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. We will focus on “merit[ing] for ourselves” in this brief post. “Merit… for others” will be for another time and another post. We Must Contribute to Our Own Justification Before God You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness (Gr. - eis dikaiosunein - “leads to justification”). (Romans 6:16) I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt. 12:36-37). For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified (Romans 2:14). We Must Be Faithful and Obey Christ …you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved (Matt. 10:22). Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life (Rev. 2:10). … but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin… If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:7-9). And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell… So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 10:28-33). Space does not permit us to include the enormous numbers of biblical texts mandating for our salvation manifold things that we must do. We must “repent” (Acts 2:38; 3:19; Mark 1:15; II Cor. 7:8-10), be baptized (John 3:3-5; Romans 6:3-4; I Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16), persevere in obedience (Gal. 6:7-9; Romans 2:6-7; Acts 5:32; Heb. 5:8-9; II Tim. 2:12; John 15:1-6), keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16; I Cor. 7:19), and more. In fact, Jesus makes this about as clear as can be in Matt. 5:44-45: But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. According to Jesus, you have to do something, e.g., “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” not just to demonstrate that you are “a son of your Father;” rather, “so that you may be,” or “so that you may become (Gr. - genesthe) a son of your Father.” One thing is abundantly clear: Jesus did not mean there is nothing else necessary for salvation when he said the famous words “it is finished.” So let’s get to work and “work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling!” (Phil. 2:12)
@@saintejeannedarc9460Divine Mercy doesn't exonerate a person from the need to be transformed. The Catholic Church acknowledges Christ’s sacrifice, and his sacrifice alone, to be of infinite value, and therefore able to appease the infinite justice of God. Or, as St. John tells us: … we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:1-2). The real question centers on how God willed for the fruits of that infinitely meritorious sacrifice to be communicated and applied to the lives of his people. This involves more than Christ’s sacrifice alone by divine design. Second, the idea that “[Jesus] accomplished everything that was necessary for our salvation on the cross,” in a strict sense anyway, is not what John 19:30 or the Bible in general teaches. If we examine the context leading up to this statement of our Lord, for example, we find Jesus to have already explained precisely what he claimed to have “finished.” On Holy Thursday-the day before he was to be crucified-in his famous high priestly prayer to the Father for all of humanity, Jesus prayed: I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work which you gave me to do; and now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world was made (John 17:4-5). Jesus says he “finished” everything the Father gave him to do on earth. In no way did he say there was and is nothing left both for him and mankind to do at all for salvation. Third, the Bible provides a litany of examples of the fact that both Jesus and we have much more to accomplish for our salvation when Jesus said, “It is Finished.” Jesus Had More to Do St. Paul obviously did not believe there was nothing left at all for Jesus to accomplish for our salvation/justification after Calvary because in Romans 4:25 he said: Jesus… was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification. Obviously, Jesus had not been “raised” from the dead yet when he said “it is finished.” The inspired author of Hebrews tells us Christ would also continue to “save those who draw near to God” until the end of time through his high priestly ministry at the right hand of the Father: But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them (7:24-25; see also Heb. 8:3; I Tim. 2:5). And clearly Jesus still had to send the Holy Spirit in order that the world might be saved. “He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, `Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'” Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:38-39). “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…” And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight (Acts 1:8-9). When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit… (Acts 2:1-4) In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (Eph. 1:13-14). He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life (Titus 3:5-7). We Have More to Do If you noticed above, I was careful to say Christ did not accomplish everything needed for man’s salvation on the cross in a strict sense. The Bible and the Catholic Church do teach Christians can be said to be saved/justified by grace alone in the sense that it is God alone, and therefore, God’s grace alone, that is the first cause of our salvation (cf. Titus 3:5-7; Eph. 2:8-9). So, in that sense, we can say “Jesus did it all for us” though not just on the cross, but by his entire life, death, burial, resurrection, and priestly ministry at the right hand of the Father (cf. CCC 517). But when it comes to the application of those merits into the lives of real human beings, the Bible makes it equally clear that we are also “justified by works,” “obedience,” our “words,” our “faithful[ness],” and more. All of this on man’s end must be empowered by God’s grace in order to be meritorious before God, but in examining just some few of these texts we could consider below, we will discover in Scripture just what we find in CCC 2010: in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. We will focus on “merit[ing] for ourselves” in this brief post. “Merit… for others” will be for another time and another post. We Must Contribute to Our Own Justification Before God You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness (Gr. - eis dikaiosunein - “leads to justification”). (Romans 6:16) I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt. 12:36-37). For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified (Romans 2:14). We Must Be Faithful and Obey Christ …you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved (Matt. 10:22). Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life (Rev. 2:10). … but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin… If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:7-9). And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell… So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 10:28-33). Space does not permit us to include the enormous numbers of biblical texts mandating for our salvation manifold things that we must do. We must “repent” (Acts 2:38; 3:19; Mark 1:15; II Cor. 7:8-10), be baptized (John 3:3-5; Romans 6:3-4; I Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16), persevere in obedience (Gal. 6:7-9; Romans 2:6-7; Acts 5:32; Heb. 5:8-9; II Tim. 2:12; John 15:1-6), keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16; I Cor. 7:19), and more. In fact, Jesus makes this about as clear as can be in Matt. 5:44-45: But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. According to Jesus, you have to do something, e.g., “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” not just to demonstrate that you are “a son of your Father;” rather, “so that you may be,” or “so that you may become (Gr. - genesthe) a son of your Father.” One thing is abundantly clear: Jesus did not mean there is nothing else necessary for salvation when he said the famous words “it is finished.” So let’s get to work and “work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling!” (Phil. 2:12)
I took it in 3 pieces as to not miss your points and citations. What an incredible presentation of the topic on Purgatory. I learned so much from your presentation and will be picking up some of the early Fathers writings you mentioned to reference and study them as well. Thank you for your work and please don’t shy away from making future presentations as well thought out or as much in depth due to concern over length of time. It is so well worth the effort. God bless you 🙏
I appreciate the discussion. Growing up as a Protestant my impression was that purgatory was an opportunity for those who died without Christ could be given another opportunity to be saved after death. In the past couple years listening to EWTN and Catholic speakers along with your study I realize that I was incorrect.
Thank you. A good reminder that the refiner's fire is in this life. What a blessed hope, to rest in Christ until he brings the resurrection of the body and the restoration of all things!
I love your channel so much, Dr. Ortlund! Thank you for all the detailed, nuanced, and irenic teaching that you bring to us! It is such an encouragement to the spirit and education for the mind!
This was extremely helpful and I appreciate that you don’t come off as having something to prove; you give the data honestly and humbly. Thank you brother.
Just discovered your channel through a video Mike winger shared. It's so amazing and underated. Thank you brother for the great work that you do. May our Almighty Lord and God Jesus Christ bless you and fill you with wisdom to serve HIM faithfully.
This was surprisingly enjoyable!! I often get super anxious when my assumptions about theology get challenged and that happened here, but that feeling of dread didn't spiral me into doubt this time, thank God. I was really encouraged by the conclusion - if you haven't watched this yet something to look forward to - thanks
I watched the Whole Video it's 12:50 A.M. here and I have a 3 page paper due in a couple hours 😂😂😂. Every SECOND WORTH IT!!! Thank You Dr. Gortlund. I'll be praying for you ministry to grow because I can honestly speak your work has deeply impacted my life in times of confusion you made me love History and the Church of Christ Even More!!! God bless You 🙏
@Daniel Smith Is the "grace of perfect repentance" something that is implicitly derived from scripture or something again that has been developed by the Church?
@Daniel Smith Ok, do you have a place for me to look to find its implicit derivation other than the thief on the cross? Or better yet, is there a place of explicit derivation that would show an example of someone who is not granted the grace of perfect repentance before they die?
@Daniel Smith Not at all. I am trying to figure out your position on why the thief on the cross is different than any other person who repents. The thief repents and is with Christ in heaven (no purgatory for him). You say it is because he was granted the grace of perfect repentance. So I am trying to figure out from you where the difference is for any other person who repents but does have to go to purgatory. Was their repentance not perfect? You tried to flip that around on me, but I hope you can see my question now.
Ryan Reaves is another resource that goes through the historical aspects of indulgences and purgatory during the time of the reformation. He's very thorough.
A fantastic resource! Thanks very much. I had no idea there is so much variety among the Church Fathers, let alone that it is separate from praying for the dead. Really interesting listen
Hi Gavin, thanks for the work you're doing on this (and related topics)! It's rare to see something approaching real scholarship in the world of UA-cam apologetics, and even rarer to see someone engaging in it who has your passion for fairly understanding your opponents. Having been trained at an extremely polemical Reformed seminary, and feeling like almost the only person there who would openly take Catholicism seriously, I can't help feeling extremely grateful to find someone with your gifts and training presenting these issues so fairly and clearly. I remain Protestant, though perhaps not as settled as you are. If I lived near you, I think I would almost certainly come to your church because I would love the opportunity to talk to you more about these things. I view myself as always in process, always open to change, always eager for God to lead me deeper into the truth, and I have a hard time believing that my own forays into these matters could ever be sufficient for making very definite commitments. But hearing from you is definitely helpful, given the depth of your engagement with the historical sources. Anyway, thanks for your work and may God bless and use your ministry! -JG
Anglican here. Unfortunately too many of our Reformed siblings are so rigid in their doctrine that they seem ungracious to other Christians. I appreciate your seeming generosity of spirit. Many blessings.
Thank you for the video on Purgatory. My priest’s inability to give a cohesive argument, biblical or extra-biblical, was one of the reasons I decided to leave the RCC. I also believe that Romans 7 addresses sin, in the believer’s life, as something which abides in the flesh during our earthly life and something we are freed from when we no longer reside in this earthly tent.
I would suggest not to meet an unprepared pastor who may not have a cohesive argument to answer any of your questions because, as you know, that would force to change your religion.
@@mariasoniamoreno3433 She didn't change her religion. She merely changed to a branch w/ less extra biblical additions that disturb our peace and trust in Christ's atonement. Christ is enough, we don't need to pay our sins when we already have an all sufficient savior and Lord.
@lauraflood That is such a great point about sin abiding in our flesh in this life, but we are freed and covered completely by Jesus' atonement in our next life w/ God. Romans 8:1-3 covers this as well: 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, I will also read Romans 7, but Romans 8:2 immediately sprang to my mind when you said that. I will attempt to explain this next time a Catholic says they have to work off temporal sins. How are you now and which church did you find a home in? I'm always fascinated when people come out of Catholicism. There are so many online testimonies about protestants becoming Catholic and the Catholics have a number of channels devoted just these testimonies. We seem to have many coming out too, but I mostly see mention of it in comments.
@@raphaelfeneje486 How does that verse deny purgatory? Your comment only shows how ignorant you are about that theological concept. When the judge hands out a judgement it is ONE judgement, but it could be death, freedom, or jail. So, purgatory would be jail for some time (life in jail is given in place of a death sentence in most places) and then freedom. The denial of purgatory being ONE judgement is absurd, just a stubborn mindset that refuses to UNDERSTAND.
Yes, I watched it to the end for the second time. I deeply appreciate your pastoral heart. It is obvious that you have the intellect and passion of a true scholar, but, in the end, it is your love for the members of Christ's body that is your chief motivation. Many Blessings.
"You never find purgatory (in the Bible) unless you're already looking for it." That comment is almost worth the whole video. Good job, sir! I think you could take the transcript of this video and in short order turn it into a book.
@@JWM5791 yes we should not add anything to the prophetic words found in the book of revelation…. The author is talking about his writings and not about the canon that was not even put together at the time. Nothing there to suggest sola scriptura which is why sola scriptura folk don’t tend to use such a passage.
@tookie36 ALL SCRIPTURE is God given. That means that we should not be exalting our ideas, or those of a denomination, over those words. Yes John was referencing Revelations, but the same reverance should be applied to EVERY SCRIPTURE.
Excellent video as always, pastor. 23:30 as a formerly identifying Catholic who has found a home in a protestant church but has yet to fully grapple with the doctrinal differences between the churches, I'd deeply appreciate you making this kind of video!
I appreciate that you point out that it’s not true that everyone believed in purgatory for 1500 years, that Catholics claim. Thank you for going over those quotes in context.
Hey pastor Gavin. No problem with the length of this video. If you had made a 5 hours long video on the topic with every quote from the major church fathers and the catholic claim and your rebuttal, I would have watched it with no problem. I like what Mike Winger did in the women in ministry series and I watched it all! I think the servant of the Lord needs to be diligent and escape from the “instantaneous” mentality of our age in which only “5 mins sermons” are acceptable. Once again thanks so much for the clarity and research!
Purgatory is a good example of small errors due to some reasonable speculation snowballing and getting out of control. Each individual step isn't ridiculous but small steps add up to a long way.
@@toomanymarys7355 yup, they started as later trinity proofs, and when mixed with issues arising from the formulation of the hypostatic union and original sin, snowballed into the immaculate conception, Mary as sinless, perpetual virginity, and her role as co-redemtrix, co-magistrix, and eventually going totally left field with Queen of Heaven and "Our Lady of Guadalupe".
@@ravissary79 you have the problems posed by testimonials of all those who trust and believe and the miracles accompanying them. What to do with them? GK Chesterton helps on this subject
@@patricksee10 there are visions and testimonials for every religion on earth, for paganism, for reincarnation, for Mormonism. The issue isn't whether someone believes it and saw something once, but does it corroborate with scripture, did it align with the covenants, does it flow from the testimony of the apostles? If it is merely built upon it, but doesn't flow from it, then that's not much different from Christian spin-off cults.
Yes, I watched it all the way to the end. I grew up in the Orthodox Church and I have appreciated your talks in all of these areas. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting for our benefit.
I am a former evangelical; Catholic since 2009. Thanks for your politeness, diligence, and authenticity. Question with all due respect: Why are you against accretion? There are countless examples of sound doctrine and teaching that you would agree with that didn’t develop for generations/centuries. Are mainstream protestants the luddites of the theological world? John 16:12. See also John Newman essay on the development of Christian doctrine if you haven’t already.
Thanks! Glad to be connected. I think it all depends on what we mean by “accretions.” The Protestant concern is that many Catholic beliefs represent slow build ups that result in error (eg, indulgences, Marian dogmas, venerating images). This is different from a mere development in the understanding of something the apostles taught.
Watched till the end twice.. rewatched the second time today as I have to teach my Sunday school class tomorrow about heresies and the topic is purgatory.. God bless your ministry Dr Ortlund.. lots of love from India...
Heresy? Thats bold. Consider this Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Oh interesting. Thanks for creating a long-form video on purgatory from a protestant perspective. I've never really thought deeply about the topic so I'm saving this video to be able to check it out later.
This is a great overview, Gavin. I grew up Catholic but became a Protestant in high school. But then I earned an AA in history and a BA in theology from a Catholic university. It was interesting being taught purgatory from a Catholic perspective and then needing to go research and learn the Protestant rejection and argumentation against it. It has really helped over the years when sharing the gospel with my Catholic family, and I plan on sharing this with them. I’m now a pastor of a 1689 Baptist church.
Where was the Church before the 1689 Baptist church came into existence? If the Baptist church came into existence in 1689 by a group of men, why believe the Baptist church is the one true church when it did not exist from Christ and the apostles?
@@MrJohnmartin2009 I’m not a Baptist, but 1689 is the year that the 1689 London Baptist Confession was written and accepted. It’s referring to a confession of faith, not a denomination.
@@jbchoc There is plenty of evidential support for purgatory in the fathers, the bible and reason. Dr Ortland's presentation is selective and does not account for how aberrant statements made by the fathers on any theological topic are integrated into a theological system that is historical and accounts for the unity of the faith and the working of the holy spirit within church history. Your statement of course is thoroughly abhorrent.
I watched it all in one sitting while crocheting a wedding present for my Catholic friend. I'm happy to be in fellowship with people from different traditions who love Jesus, but I'm also happy to be a Protestant.
Great teaching! Such a deep, thorough, and honest dive into the origins of this strange doctrine. I watched to the end. Not surprising that the shortest part was the “scriptural basis” for purgatory.
This is excellent. These complicated topics deserve time and depth. If you are concerned about the audience not having time and opportunity consider time stamps but dumbing it down is rarely the solution (edit : after I commented I saw the time stamps in the description :-) - leaving the comment for the sake of the algorithm)
The end is the best! Thank you! I'm so thankful to be Protestant.
You won't be when you go before the Lord
@@dennis1662your right, when your on death row you ain't going to buy off the judge for the wages of sin is death. What would you like for your last meal?
@@richardjackson7887 at the end they are both wrong. Happy to be Protestant, I am happy to be catholic but more important happy that Jesus gave his life for our sin and through him salvation.
John 13:35
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another
@@JuanGonzalez-kb3gm
Colossians 2:12-19 KJV Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14. Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15. And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17. Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19. And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
@@JuanGonzalez-kb3gmamen! Hear hear, brother!
I have learned so much from this. Thank you.
Those of us coming from Mike Winger, Tony Costa and Anthony Rogers channels are very used to long videos so long as they are quality
@A P here, here
I think the same applies to Anthony Rogers, for what I've seen he isn't a good debater when it comes to Catholic/Orthodox Church.
@@ricardooliveira9774 who has he debated? Last I checked William Albreicht is the first catholic he's going to debate
I was just saying that Gavin didn't need to worry about length of videos cos some of us don't mind them long 🙂
@@ricardooliveira9774 well, he has one planned with William Albrect, I believe, on Sola Fide. His debates with Shabir Ali (the only Muslim who dare debate him) and Unitarians are stormers. Can't wait to learn from this one
2 years down the line and this video is still changing lives and granting peace to those burdened by this. I made it all the way til the end.
Thank you Dr Ortlund. I appreciate you, my family appreciates you.
God bless you and your family
The great thing about these discussions is not that they will change Catholic minds, but that they lay everything out on the table, so that an honest person--without prior commitments to either side--can view the information and judge for themselves.
Agreed. These videos are so extraordinary and informational for those of us who are trying to learn…
@@dennis1662 lol
@@mariomene205110 rosaries for not being charitable.
1 Timothy 4:1-5 ESV
[1] Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, [2] through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, [3] who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. [4] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, [5] for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.
The Catholic mind is often times seared. Salvation is till possible for them as long was they're not trying to work themselves into heaven. Some believe that and some don't. The problem is when you give full authority to the church you pretty much have to sign off on everything they do whether you like it or not. Many Catholics will say well yea we've done this or done that in the past, but I don't personally believe this. But in reality the some of the Catholic councils and dogmas aren't charitable enough to let individuals decide for themselves. There are clear rules and anathemas that you're not supposed to challenge or reject.
2 years later and this video is still changing lives. Thank you for service sir. I have been grappling with this for a long time and you know its God's work when it produces peace in your heart, that peace which is beyond understanding, the peace that only a child feels when he/she openly trusts a father. This is how it should be, to feel like a child again and trust in the God that laid down His life for us. For the believer: " Today, you shall be with me in paradise. "
Watched to the end! Man I have never seen anyone be as thorough as you do, even when you are summarizing something. It really is refreshing to have a voice from the Protestant side.
When I read 'A Grief Observed' by CS Lewis one of the most heartbreaking parts, to me, is when Lewis is wrestling with his belief in purgatory. People were telling him that his deceased wife was in a better place and he didn't believe them because he thought she was being punished. He was given a heavier weight of grief and had less hope because he held this misguided doctrine.
It's a sad misunderstanding of what Jesus accomplishes for his people.
Scripture nowhere teaches that every Christian fully partakes in the beatific vision the moment they die. This is one reason God’s people have always prayed for the dead (Judaism, early church, EO, and Catholics today). 1 Corinthians 3:13. It is your opinion that is misguided, pastor. Christ completing sanctification after death in no way undermines his work, mercy, or burning love 🔥.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 well since the goat of UA-cam 1787 said it, it must be true.
@@pastorzhhicks Thanks pastor. Here I thought your view was true because you went to “Bible college”. Never mind that the early church that assembled your Bible was Catholic, in its liturgy and practice, and prayers for the dead were offered.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 That's a very interesting view you have there. It appears you also don't understand the origins of the Bible, in addition to your other misunderstandings. You've labeled yourself a goat, I guess that'll have to suffice. Take care.
@@pastorzhhicks And you’ve labeled yourself a pastor. The goat
name is a silly fantasy football joke for guys on those chats who are bombastic … I appreciate you enjoying it. What I told you is what history records, pastor. Are you teaching your folks something different? The New Testament was assembled by Catholic bishops and their worship was a Eucharist sacrifice that included prayers for the dead. I don’t think I misunderstood anything, I think you’re used to teaching people something you believe strongly and it being accepted as truth even if you have no evidence to support it. As is the case here. “For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church” - Augustine. Why do you imagine that ancient faiths of the east and west (Rome and Orthodox) are both centered around a Eucharistic liturgy that includes prayers for the dead? 🤔
Amen! Thank you, Gavin.
I was raised Evangelical Protestant and became Catholic 10 years ago. I just want to say thank you for making this without it being "Catholic bashing ". Your respectful approach to the differences is refreshing
Came here on Mike Winger's recommendation, stayed for your God-given desire for truth. Watched the entire study. Good work, brother!
Thanks, glad to be connected!
Born and raised a Catholic, it took me years of bible study to reach this same conclusion. If we hold to purgatory, what we say is that the sufferings of Christ, and His sacrificial atonement are "not enough" to cleanse us. I feel that this point alone excludes any consideration of the belief, and borders on heresy.:
Tradition and metaphysical reasoning cannot take away or cheapen what Christ accomplished and sustains.
that is protestant doctrine, but the sins can be forgiven, the condequence of our sins remain with us, every stain must be cleansen, if u belive in hell as a catholic then are u saying that no one can go to hell?
@@washingtonman375 i understand Christ payed for our sin, original sin or man's tendency to sin. protestant doctrine sees that Christ payed for our sins.
@@orionsoars9953 Hell and Purgutory are two different things. Hell is for the damned, never for the saved! Paul says when Christ appears the dead are raised, and we are changed, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye". Nothing about long periods of time being "cleansed". Sin is in the body. Our spirits are "born again". Once you're out of the body, you are separated from sin. The blood of Christ cleanses our souls completely..there is nothing left to do.
@lastchance8142 not all Protestants believe in regenerative grace, either through Baptism or otherwise. Forensic Justification doesn't permit for any purification of the Christian soul before or after death.
I really like how you frame the Protestant reformation as trying to reform the Catholic church as apposed to leaving the Catholic Church.
"Forty days " was the season of Lent (length), which comes between the winter solstice and the spring equinox, when the days are growing longer, and the nights shorter; when the sins (Sun's S. declination) of the world (year) are being purged off, and come to nought (0) as the Sun reaches the equator. This was the purgatory of the ancients, during which a fast was kept, and is still kept by many of the moderns, in imitation of nature, to purge off their sins! The last month of the year, and the one more particularly observed was named February, from februare, to purge; because, at the end of this mouth the Sun was found at the spring equinox; and having no declination, his sins are all gone.
(Roman calendar). The sacred year/world begins and ends at the spring equinox. The new religious year begins with "Let there be light".
The ancients held two festivals at opposite points of the ecliptic; one, the anagogia, or going-up of the Sun, at the spring equinox (this was the Passover of the Jews); the other the katagogia or going-down of the Sun, at the fall equinox; this was the ingathering of the Jews. This "forty days” was also styled by the Alchemists a “philosophical month." (Bees' Cyclopaedia, art. Month.)
The Dove's station was near Purgatory, i.e., near the spring equinox, at which time she returns to us, the inequalities of the days and nights having been purged off. (Faber, Pag. Idol, vol. 3, p. 343.)
Except they left the church and now are accountable for 400 unique denominations
@kang7348 They didn't leave the church, the church left them. Luther, and his followers, were excommunicated by the Catholic Church.
@@kang7348
Rcc makes that 401
@@kang7348nothing wrong with many denominations. As long as the denomination is biblical and preaches the gospel. Much better than having to be part of a church that kisses statue toes and prays to dolls and figurines. No thanks. IM glad i can attend a beautiful church that teaches what apostles taught. Who btw didn't teach praying to mary 👍
I know that it's been at least 2 years since you first aired this, but I wanted to say that I did listen to the very end. I am grateful that you diligently researched the early sermons of the church leaders and presented that information in such a straightforward way. I never understood how my Roman Catholic friends ended up with a doctrine that contradicts scripture. It's clearly because they trusted men and did not study God's true word to see their own error. It's truly sad.
I’m so grateful for your channel Dr Ortlund. Your input on why going deep in the history of the church in no way is to accept Romanism or Greek Orthodox.
Please continue with the great ministry!
Listened to the end. As a former Catholic this is immensely helpful. I would like to add that my mother is Catholic and 90 years old. Purgatory weighs heavy on her heart and this breaks my heart.
Better purgatory than hell. I will be happy to spend time in purgatory until I am clean and can see the face of God, because nothing unclean will see His face.
@@mariasoniamoreno3433 If you are in Christ, you are already clean because of Him.
@@mariasoniamoreno3433 You're been manipulated. I pray you receive light in Jesus name!
@raphaelfeneje486 Jesus himself said those in him will never be lost. If you don't trust that then sorry, there's nothing that the false doctrine of purgatory can help.
@@addjoaprekobaah5914 You don't just read without understanding. There's a reason you've got eyes. I'm praying for someone that believes in purgatory that the eyes of her understanding be enlightened. You are here telling me I believe in purgatory. Are you serious?😕
I WATCHED THE WHOLE THING BEGINNING TO END! Thank you for this research and video.
I watched to the end! 😊❤️ Thank you for your hard work!
Thank you. Did listen through whole. I have been a little bit struggling with seeing all Catholic and orthodox UA-camrs saying: this is this and this is that.
You comforted me.
Watched it all! Amazing breakdown. I’ve been taking notes, capturing screenshots, and building an overview of this. It’s so important to be able to communicate why, as a Protestant, I reject the accretions that have become dogmas in the Catholic Church. Particularly when there is very little to no scriptural basis for these crucial theological ideas.
I shed a couple tears at Stephen the Martyr, at the thought that any believer has the full assurance of the gospel behind them and while at the point of death can say, “Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Thank you! Keep doing what you do, please.
I'm Catholic, I like and respect you Dr. Ortlund for the way you address these issues. I look forward to Trent Horn's response to this, and I ultimately look forward to your discussion with him if there will ever be. God bless you.
Listen to Dr Brad Pitre’s video explaining purgatory.
@@lailakoper3644 I have my Catholic catechism. I could never join the Catholic Church anymore. I am born again
The entire video was scholarly spirit filled and clarified issues as a born again catholic gave me a historical base which anchors my faith
@@johnszish581 do you mind me asking the biggest reason you left the Church and how old were you when you left?
sorry to burst your bubble but he is not the holy spirit that have guided the true one church for 20000 years from Peter to the present moment
Two years later and I watched it all the way to the end! Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!
Already 10 mins in and I’m already happy that he corrected the 3 misconceptions of purgatory that popular non catholic Christians keep saying even though they did their research.
Thanks for this honest and thorough response! I know this is old, but I just found it. I appreciate all your research. It keeps giving.
I’m a Catholic and watched til the end! I have a lot to think about thank you 🙏
Awesome!!
Thank you so very much! Those of us who are drawn to Rome or Orthodoxy tend to be good students of history and we understand why it’s important. But we lack the tools and skills parse the data like you do. Your passion is evident and your enthusiasm is contagious! Please keep dispensing treasures from the top shelf for those of us who cannot reach!
Anglican here. If you love the liturgy without the accretions, the Anglican tradition may be a good fit for you. We consider ourselves as the reformed catholic church where the extremes of the medieval church are corrected.
I'm listening to your video from Perth Australia. I have never heard purgatory explained so well. Thank you.
The end had my Bapticostal ancestors shouting! Thanks for this! ❤️🙌🏽🙏🏽
I listened to it all. It was very educating. Thank you. I trust our Lord is glorified in what you are doing. And chains are being loosed.
I watched to the end. I wasn't bored for one minute. I appreciate your scholarship and your willingness to refute these long held man-made Catholic doctrines that developed over the centuries and are not grounded in the Bible or in the early church.
Great resourceful video. Lots of food for thought.
I watched till the end.
This was amazing. I didn't know that there was so much diversity in the views of our early Church.
I've found myself thinking about death far more frequently than I would consider normal, but even in that unease, I take the fact seriously that I will be with Christ for eternity when all is said and done.
Not only have I watched the video in its entirety, but I've watched and digested it twice! I cannot begin to thank you enough Gavin for the research and care you put into all your content. Kind regards, Richard.
Watching twice is beneficial
Watched until the end! So appreciate your good work. Thank you.
Sent over by Mike Winger. Great discussion and I really appreciate your considerate treatment of the discussion. Watched the entire video; great work, sir!
thanks a lot, welcome to the channel!
Watched to the end! I love the pastoral conclusion, really gets to the practical damage on our spiritual lives the doctrine of purgatory can have and how comforting the true doctrine. As a Baptist missionary serving in a majority Roman Catholic context I find these Protestant/Catholic videos helpful
I love the Baptist denomination so much! I believe it has had the most and best impact on our still mostly evangelical country USA. Thanks for your missionary work!!😊
Watched all the way to the end!! Stopped only to take notes. Will be reviewing again. A lot to digest. Thank you!!
Ex catholic here. The issue of purgatory was the final nail in coffin for me to leave catholicism. It's such a massive insult to the finished work of Christ on our behalf. Why did Christ say "It is finished" on the cross if in fact anyone would have to suffer some sort of temporal punishment for their own sins? Simply put, the teaching on and belief in purgatory perverts the gospel.
Thank you Dr. Ortlund for this video. 🤝
Thank you for your comment. I too am on the fence as a Catholic as many of their dogmas are unsound - but purgatory is the worst.
@clivejames5058 Mariology is just as bad in my opinion because it basically adds a 2nd gospel. Gavin does great videos talking about it. Plenty of great non-denominational churches, just test their doctrine with the Bible. Not all protestant churches are equal. We have our own crazies too.
@@michaelbush1374 Thank you. I converted from Anglicanism to Catholicism 20+ years ago now (being English) so the only Church I would go back to would be that one = although, during my research, I've been greatly impressed by the Orthodox Church (which the early Reformers seemingly wanted to go back to, getting rid of all the accretions of Rome). However, the nearest EO Church is a 7 hour drive away - so we'll see.
I watched all the way to the end. I have endured my time, and my ignorance has been purged.
Actually, this was thrilling to engage with. I love the Christ-like pastoral heart behind it, that His sheep would have assurance of rest without fear of torment, grounded in the sufficiency of His righteousness and His sufferings alone.
Hello there, I'm a Pentecostal, got into the Church Fathers when I was about 16-17 and I've watched till the end of the video. Thanks and God bless you pastor.
Much appreciation for your video and how you lay out your findings! While I have several close Catholic friends and family who I deeply love and respect, purgatory is one of my fundamental disagreements with the Catholic Church. You could say my Baptist roots run deep, even if I have "branched out" to a non-denominational church... thankful too for the rootedness in truth and scripture! Found this channel through "Pints with Aquinas" and I'm so glad I did. (this is a year later, but I did in fact, watch to the end)
Glad to be connected!
@@TruthUnitesDo you believe Animals are or can be in Heaven?
You released this right on my lunch break. I consider it providence! Thank you for taking the time to tackle these tricky subjects
Thanks for posting
Oh goodness how encouraging - I’ve been binging on your videos during a two-day bout of Covid - and I watched all of this, taking notes. Death where is your sting, oh grave your victory!
Thanks for putting so much effort into this. I was Catholic for 30 years but am now firmly protestant and there's no going back. This is another example of catholicism adding to the simple teaching of scripture. I especially love how you refuted the claim that catholics often make that the Protestant church started in the 1500s. As you stated, protestantism was simply an effort to remove the accretions that had been added over the centuries that were unbiblical and in some cases downright evil. Like manipulating and taking advantage of poor grieving family members to donate money to get their loved ones out of purgatory. I am so appreciative everyday of the freedom that I now have in Christ, as opposed to constant guilt that I am not doing enough rituals and works to get into heaven. I am still a sinner and God is still working on me in this life to conform me to the image of his son, but my works do not earn me heaven. Now I understand it is only faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. I was taught so many things from Catholicism thy later found out to be completely untrue when I actually read the scripture and studied it. Based on my personal experience as a Catholic, I can't help believe that there are motivations behind the teachings that benefit and give power to their leaders. For instance, when you take away purgatory, the average person simply does not have the same fear and therefore doesn't need the men in long robes as much. Same thing with the Eucharist actually being Jesus. It benefits them to have everyone believe that only their ordained priests can turn the bread into Jesus. It all gives them more power over people and of course they have used this power to amass billions in cash in real estate. I have been studying scripture daily for the past 25 years and and now more convinced than ever that the Roman Catholic church went astray when the bishop of Rome seized power from the council of bishops. At that point it became an apostate church in my view.
Same here, ex catholic , left 30yrs ago and never looked back. It disgusts me, so much falsety and rituals. Galatians and Romans applies to that church. Sadly most of my family still in it.
@@missthunderstormable I don't mind the rituals now. Still a mere Christian, but I have been looking into Catholicism the last few years. It is a huge chunk of our church history as Christians, whatever branch we are now. I do agree w/ staza that there were many political power and greed motivations for some of the accretions. Gavin has been pretty careful to avoid delving into these types of motivations. I would like to hear more about what you 2 have learned coming from the inside. I am Catholic friendly though and ecumenism is very important to me. We have to see all the accretions in the protestant branches too, prosperity gospels, hyper charismatic, humanist, feminism, etc.
Purgatory is one of the most disturbing things about Catholicism that would stop me from ever converting. Where the heck did it even come from? It's a huge addition. In Trent Horn's rebuttal, he played a clip from Father Josiah, an Orthodox priest. Ft. Josiah admitted that it is not spoken of in the NT, but yet the early church somehow knew about it. How convenient. Though Catholics do have that typical one scripture they stretch the heck out of to try and back it (the wood, hay, stubble scripture).
@@missthunderstormable le
@@saintejeannedarc9460
Anglican here. If you love the liturgy without the accretions, the Anglican tradition may be a good fit for you. We consider ourselves as the reformed catholic church where the extremes of the medieval church are corrected.
You mentioned purgatory and eucharist which you find it adding them to scripture.
Since you are an ex Catholic and a very matured person, I don't expect you to change your belief system. Any way, I'll give my opinion.
1. Purgatory.
If the concept of purgatory is false, when do final sanctification or purification of a believer takes place such that he is fit to enter into God's presence? Is it at the born again event or at the moment of death or during burial or after death?
2. If Eucharist is not Jesus' body and blood, then you are making an image / symbol of the body and blood Jesus in the form of bread and wine which is against one of the 10 commandments of God. You are committing idolatry when you take communion.
3. If you are saved by faith alone exclusive of works, then the Devil too should be saved. Else, protestants have to redefine what is faith that saves.
Protestants love saying, if you are saved by grace then it is not of work but if you are saved by works then it is no longer grace.
By the same logic, protestants have a dilemma. If protestants are saved because Jesus paid the price of their sins, then they are not forgiven of their sins. And if their sins are forgiven, then Jesus' sacrifice had not paid the price of their sins.
If the debt is paid, then, there is no forgiveness; or if the sins are forgiven then the debt of sin is not paid.
This is over a year old, but I listened all the way to the end. I found informative and thoughtful - well worth the time.
Thank you.
I watched it to the end wonderful! I used to be a Roman Catholic and always struggled with this teaching this help me solidify my belief that I will be with Jesus when I pass and also all believers
I nearly clapped out loud, in tears, in my house, at the terminus of this lecture. What amazing comfort!
So helpful and so necessary. Thank you very much for your work, your obvious shepherds heart, and your enjoyment of sharing with us these treasures of history and their application.
Two comments: First, I will be saving this and looking at it over and over to remember for my family: loved ones not saved, and young grandchildren who believe, but may later come to a place of needing assurance. Second, an Orthodox priest, who is a friend with whom I’ve enjoyed many theological conversations, was very concerned that I not believe in the doctrine of tollhouses that is still taught in some regions of the Orthodox Church.
This is the best Protestant video I have seen on UA-cam! Thank you for your work Dr. Ortlund, you have the most excellent rebuttals! Very thorough
I love how you dont oversimplify important issues like we're children who cant understand "grown-up talk." I think this is very helpful in seeing this area of faith has been grounds for speculation that muddied the waters. Continue the great work and do continue to treat opposing views with respect--much appreciated! Oh, and I watched to the end.
Me too! I find I often rewatch these videos and some parts I even rewatch several times until something I'm struggling with "clicks." I'd much rather that than be patronised.
I watched this all the way through. Thank you so much Gavin. This information was super helpful and inspires me to look deeper into other important topics like this!
A brilliant and much needed exposition! Watched to the very end.
Watched it to the end. Wonderful discussion.
Just finished watching. This is definitely the most detailed and clarifying exposure and analysis on the subject I have ever seen! God bless!!
I agree, this was well put together! Too bad more people couldn't be like this with a more open mind, and just present the facts, rather than try to sugar coat someone into a belief system.
Yet in all my experience of engaging in discussion and watching/listening to debates, I have NEVER heard any Catholic, much less a Catholic apologist, ever claim that the Catholic Church taught purgatory from the beginning.
@@stephenjohnson9632 start at 8:15 of this, it's the first sentence of the debate: ua-cam.com/video/kE2QSb_eaBQ/v-deo.html
@@TruthUnites Well, that’s a first for me. Never heard it put that way before. FYI, I came here per Catholic apologist Trent Horn’s endorsement of this being an intellectually honest channel albeit from a Baptist point of view. I’m about a third of the way through this, my first video, and it is living up to the endorsement.
@@stephenjohnson9632 glad to hear that! God bless you.
Thanks, I watched the entire video very helpful in explaining this perspective.
Just finished. This was great and definitely not too long. It is good to be able to go in depth. The last 20 minutes or so about how we do not have to fear in the face of death was a beautiful presentation of the hope we have in Christ!
I also think about perfect love casts out all fear. There is no getting around the fear that purgatory would produce. I love your pastoral encouragement from scripture. Christ is enough, His grace sufficient! 💝
Fear, demoralization and hopelessness. This life it very hard, totally sucks at times. The only thing that keeps me going is looking forward to being w/ my Lord in heaven, where all suffering and tears finally end. But no, if you're Catholic, you can't look forward to that. You have to play grace hopscotch and hope you are in grace when you die. If you somehow manage all that, then you still have purgatory to look forward to instead of heaven. Christ's death doesn't really seem to count for much in Catholicism. CAtholics are constantly paying for their own sins. The RCC even teaches explicitly that Christ's atonement only deals w/ original sin, when we're born. Then we're staring our life of grace hopscotch.
@@saintejeannedarc9460
Buddy, you have not make correct assessment of Catholic belief.
Catholics know that we sin again and again in our thoughts and deeds; we sin for failure to do our duty. We are never perfect and so, we hope Jesus to cleanse us of all our impurities during purgatory do that we may out on glorified body and enter into God's presence.
God expected us to be perfect like him. But Catholics recognise that we don't come close to that. And we don't try to justify our salvation or sanctification but we appeal to God's mercy and grace. We don't think God owed us. We don't expect God to keep his words when we don't keep ours. This being the reality, we look forward to his mercy and grace just because we strive our best to be his followers.
We know that when Job could not justify himself before God even when he had unwavering faith, we cannot use Jesus name as an excuse because it will amount to using the name of the Lord our God in vain (abuse). We know that Jesus had atoned for the sin of the whole world but that does not justify that everyone must therefore be saved or that the sin of believers are paid in full for trusting in the finished work of Jesus. We know that our salvation depends on whether we are found worthy in Jesus' eyes or not. When we do internal reflection, we find that though we do our best to obey Jesus, we are far from perfection and hence we place our hope on Jesus' mercy and love for our salvation and for our glorification.
We take seriously when Jesus said, not everyone who calls him Lord Lord will enter into the kingdom of heaven even if they preached and worked miracles in his name because they worked iniquity.
We are not terrified but we are made concious that it is best to be humble before the Lord and seek his graciousness. We know we are just the clay and God is the Potter.
Divine Mercy doesn't exonerate a person from the need to be transformed.
The Catholic Church acknowledges Christ’s sacrifice, and his sacrifice alone, to be of infinite value, and therefore able to appease the infinite justice of God. Or, as St. John tells us:
… we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:1-2).
The real question centers on how God willed for the fruits of that infinitely meritorious sacrifice to be communicated and applied to the lives of his people. This involves more than Christ’s sacrifice alone by divine design.
Second, the idea that “[Jesus] accomplished everything that was necessary for our salvation on the cross,” in a strict sense anyway, is not what John 19:30 or the Bible in general teaches. If we examine the context leading up to this statement of our Lord, for example, we find Jesus to have already explained precisely what he claimed to have “finished.” On Holy Thursday-the day before he was to be crucified-in his famous high priestly prayer to the Father for all of humanity, Jesus prayed:
I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work which you gave me to do; and now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world was made (John 17:4-5).
Jesus says he “finished” everything the Father gave him to do on earth. In no way did he say there was and is nothing left both for him and mankind to do at all for salvation.
Third, the Bible provides a litany of examples of the fact that both Jesus and we have much more to accomplish for our salvation when Jesus said, “It is Finished.”
Jesus Had More to Do
St. Paul obviously did not believe there was nothing left at all for Jesus to accomplish for our salvation/justification after Calvary because in Romans 4:25 he said:
Jesus… was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Obviously, Jesus had not been “raised” from the dead yet when he said “it is finished.”
The inspired author of Hebrews tells us Christ would also continue to “save those who draw near to God” until the end of time through his high priestly ministry at the right hand of the Father:
But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them (7:24-25; see also Heb. 8:3; I Tim. 2:5).
And clearly Jesus still had to send the Holy Spirit in order that the world might be saved.
“He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, `Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'” Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:38-39).
“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…” And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight (Acts 1:8-9).
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit… (Acts 2:1-4)
In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (Eph. 1:13-14).
He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life (Titus 3:5-7).
We Have More to Do
If you noticed above, I was careful to say Christ did not accomplish everything needed for man’s salvation on the cross in a strict sense. The Bible and the Catholic Church do teach Christians can be said to be saved/justified by grace alone in the sense that it is God alone, and therefore, God’s grace alone, that is the first cause of our salvation (cf. Titus 3:5-7; Eph. 2:8-9). So, in that sense, we can say “Jesus did it all for us” though not just on the cross, but by his entire life, death, burial, resurrection, and priestly ministry at the right hand of the Father (cf. CCC 517).
But when it comes to the application of those merits into the lives of real human beings, the Bible makes it equally clear that we are also “justified by works,” “obedience,” our “words,” our “faithful[ness],” and more. All of this on man’s end must be empowered by God’s grace in order to be meritorious before God, but in examining just some few of these texts we could consider below, we will discover in Scripture just what we find in CCC 2010:
in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.
We will focus on “merit[ing] for ourselves” in this brief post. “Merit… for others” will be for another time and another post.
We Must Contribute to Our Own Justification Before God
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness (Gr. - eis dikaiosunein - “leads to justification”). (Romans 6:16)
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt. 12:36-37).
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified (Romans 2:14).
We Must Be Faithful and Obey Christ
…you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved (Matt. 10:22).
Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life (Rev. 2:10).
… but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin… If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:7-9).
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell… So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 10:28-33).
Space does not permit us to include the enormous numbers of biblical texts mandating for our salvation manifold things that we must do. We must “repent” (Acts 2:38; 3:19; Mark 1:15; II Cor. 7:8-10), be baptized (John 3:3-5; Romans 6:3-4; I Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16), persevere in obedience (Gal. 6:7-9; Romans 2:6-7; Acts 5:32; Heb. 5:8-9; II Tim. 2:12; John 15:1-6), keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16; I Cor. 7:19), and more.
In fact, Jesus makes this about as clear as can be in Matt. 5:44-45:
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.
According to Jesus, you have to do something, e.g., “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” not just to demonstrate that you are “a son of your Father;” rather, “so that you may be,” or “so that you may become (Gr. - genesthe) a son of your Father.”
One thing is abundantly clear: Jesus did not mean there is nothing else necessary for salvation when he said the famous words “it is finished.” So let’s get to work and “work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling!” (Phil. 2:12)
@@saintejeannedarc9460Divine Mercy doesn't exonerate a person from the need to be transformed.
The Catholic Church acknowledges Christ’s sacrifice, and his sacrifice alone, to be of infinite value, and therefore able to appease the infinite justice of God. Or, as St. John tells us:
… we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world (I John 2:1-2).
The real question centers on how God willed for the fruits of that infinitely meritorious sacrifice to be communicated and applied to the lives of his people. This involves more than Christ’s sacrifice alone by divine design.
Second, the idea that “[Jesus] accomplished everything that was necessary for our salvation on the cross,” in a strict sense anyway, is not what John 19:30 or the Bible in general teaches. If we examine the context leading up to this statement of our Lord, for example, we find Jesus to have already explained precisely what he claimed to have “finished.” On Holy Thursday-the day before he was to be crucified-in his famous high priestly prayer to the Father for all of humanity, Jesus prayed:
I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work which you gave me to do; and now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory which I had with you before the world was made (John 17:4-5).
Jesus says he “finished” everything the Father gave him to do on earth. In no way did he say there was and is nothing left both for him and mankind to do at all for salvation.
Third, the Bible provides a litany of examples of the fact that both Jesus and we have much more to accomplish for our salvation when Jesus said, “It is Finished.”
Jesus Had More to Do
St. Paul obviously did not believe there was nothing left at all for Jesus to accomplish for our salvation/justification after Calvary because in Romans 4:25 he said:
Jesus… was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Obviously, Jesus had not been “raised” from the dead yet when he said “it is finished.”
The inspired author of Hebrews tells us Christ would also continue to “save those who draw near to God” until the end of time through his high priestly ministry at the right hand of the Father:
But [Christ] holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues for ever. Consequently he is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them (7:24-25; see also Heb. 8:3; I Tim. 2:5).
And clearly Jesus still had to send the Holy Spirit in order that the world might be saved.
“He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, `Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.'” Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:38-39).
“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you…” And when he had said this, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight (Acts 1:8-9).
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place… And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit… (Acts 2:1-4)
In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory (Eph. 1:13-14).
He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life (Titus 3:5-7).
We Have More to Do
If you noticed above, I was careful to say Christ did not accomplish everything needed for man’s salvation on the cross in a strict sense. The Bible and the Catholic Church do teach Christians can be said to be saved/justified by grace alone in the sense that it is God alone, and therefore, God’s grace alone, that is the first cause of our salvation (cf. Titus 3:5-7; Eph. 2:8-9). So, in that sense, we can say “Jesus did it all for us” though not just on the cross, but by his entire life, death, burial, resurrection, and priestly ministry at the right hand of the Father (cf. CCC 517).
But when it comes to the application of those merits into the lives of real human beings, the Bible makes it equally clear that we are also “justified by works,” “obedience,” our “words,” our “faithful[ness],” and more. All of this on man’s end must be empowered by God’s grace in order to be meritorious before God, but in examining just some few of these texts we could consider below, we will discover in Scripture just what we find in CCC 2010:
in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.
We will focus on “merit[ing] for ourselves” in this brief post. “Merit… for others” will be for another time and another post.
We Must Contribute to Our Own Justification Before God
You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness (Gr. - eis dikaiosunein - “leads to justification”). (Romans 6:16)
I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned” (Matt. 12:36-37).
For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified (Romans 2:14).
We Must Be Faithful and Obey Christ
…you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved (Matt. 10:22).
Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life (Rev. 2:10).
… but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin… If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (I John 1:7-9).
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell… So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven (Matt. 10:28-33).
Space does not permit us to include the enormous numbers of biblical texts mandating for our salvation manifold things that we must do. We must “repent” (Acts 2:38; 3:19; Mark 1:15; II Cor. 7:8-10), be baptized (John 3:3-5; Romans 6:3-4; I Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16), persevere in obedience (Gal. 6:7-9; Romans 2:6-7; Acts 5:32; Heb. 5:8-9; II Tim. 2:12; John 15:1-6), keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16; I Cor. 7:19), and more.
In fact, Jesus makes this about as clear as can be in Matt. 5:44-45:
But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.
According to Jesus, you have to do something, e.g., “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,” not just to demonstrate that you are “a son of your Father;” rather, “so that you may be,” or “so that you may become (Gr. - genesthe) a son of your Father.”
One thing is abundantly clear: Jesus did not mean there is nothing else necessary for salvation when he said the famous words “it is finished.” So let’s get to work and “work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling!” (Phil. 2:12)
Gavin, I watched the whole thing and think it's one of the most informative videos I've seen in ages. Many thanks for your hard work.
I took it in 3 pieces as to not miss your points and citations. What an incredible presentation of the topic on Purgatory. I learned so much from your presentation and will be picking up some of the early Fathers writings you mentioned to reference and study them as well. Thank you for your work and please don’t shy away from making future presentations as well thought out or as much in depth due to concern over length of time. It is so well worth the effort. God bless you 🙏
I appreciate the discussion. Growing up as a Protestant my impression was that purgatory was an opportunity for those who died without Christ could be given another opportunity to be saved after death. In the past couple years listening to EWTN and Catholic speakers along with your study I realize that I was incorrect.
Thank you. A good reminder that the refiner's fire is in this life. What a blessed hope, to rest in Christ until he brings the resurrection of the body and the restoration of all things!
I love your channel so much, Dr. Ortlund! Thank you for all the detailed, nuanced, and irenic teaching that you bring to us! It is such an encouragement to the spirit and education for the mind!
This was extremely helpful and I appreciate that you don’t come off as having something to prove; you give the data honestly and humbly. Thank you brother.
Glad it was helpful!
Just discovered your channel through a video Mike winger shared. It's so amazing and underated. Thank you brother for the great work that you do. May our Almighty Lord and God Jesus Christ bless you and fill you with wisdom to serve HIM faithfully.
Bible thinkers assemble! 😄
Thanks a lot, and happy to be connected!
Watched till the end. Great walk through. I hold that resting in sheol is also being in the hands of God, though it's not heaven.
I very much thank you for making this content! God bless you Dr. Ortlund! 🙏
Thank you! Such profound research. Watched till the end, while working in the kitchen ....
This was surprisingly enjoyable!! I often get super anxious when my assumptions about theology get challenged and that happened here, but that feeling of dread didn't spiral me into doubt this time, thank God. I was really encouraged by the conclusion - if you haven't watched this yet something to look forward to - thanks
I watched it all thanks!
I watched the Whole Video it's 12:50 A.M. here and I have a 3 page paper due in a couple hours 😂😂😂. Every SECOND WORTH IT!!! Thank You Dr. Gortlund. I'll be praying for you ministry to grow because I can honestly speak your work has deeply impacted my life in times of confusion you made me love History and the Church of Christ Even More!!! God bless You 🙏
Thanks so much Jacob, God bless you as well!
The example of the thief on the cross is just so clear. I'm so thankful it was included by the gospel writers.
That's just what went through my mind
@Daniel Smith Is the "grace of perfect repentance" something that is implicitly derived from scripture or something again that has been developed by the Church?
@Daniel Smith Ok, do you have a place for me to look to find its implicit derivation other than the thief on the cross? Or better yet, is there a place of explicit derivation that would show an example of someone who is not granted the grace of perfect repentance before they die?
@Daniel Smith Not at all. I am trying to figure out your position on why the thief on the cross is different than any other person who repents. The thief repents and is with Christ in heaven (no purgatory for him). You say it is because he was granted the grace of perfect repentance. So I am trying to figure out from you where the difference is for any other person who repents but does have to go to purgatory. Was their repentance not perfect? You tried to flip that around on me, but I hope you can see my question now.
@Daniel Smith Cool. Thank you for the explanation!
Ryan Reaves is another resource that goes through the historical aspects of indulgences and purgatory during the time of the reformation. He's very thorough.
A fantastic resource! Thanks very much. I had no idea there is so much variety among the Church Fathers, let alone that it is separate from praying for the dead. Really interesting listen
Hi Gavin, thanks for the work you're doing on this (and related topics)! It's rare to see something approaching real scholarship in the world of UA-cam apologetics, and even rarer to see someone engaging in it who has your passion for fairly understanding your opponents. Having been trained at an extremely polemical Reformed seminary, and feeling like almost the only person there who would openly take Catholicism seriously, I can't help feeling extremely grateful to find someone with your gifts and training presenting these issues so fairly and clearly. I remain Protestant, though perhaps not as settled as you are. If I lived near you, I think I would almost certainly come to your church because I would love the opportunity to talk to you more about these things. I view myself as always in process, always open to change, always eager for God to lead me deeper into the truth, and I have a hard time believing that my own forays into these matters could ever be sufficient for making very definite commitments. But hearing from you is definitely helpful, given the depth of your engagement with the historical sources. Anyway, thanks for your work and may God bless and use your ministry!
-JG
Anglican here. Unfortunately too many of our Reformed siblings are so rigid in their doctrine that they seem ungracious to other Christians. I appreciate your seeming generosity of spirit. Many blessings.
Thank you for this. It's a great comfort to know that we will be with Jesus as soon as we die.
Thank you for the video on Purgatory. My priest’s inability to give a cohesive argument, biblical or extra-biblical, was one of the reasons I decided to leave the RCC. I also believe that Romans 7 addresses sin, in the believer’s life, as something which abides in the flesh during our earthly life and something we are freed from when we no longer reside in this earthly tent.
I would suggest not to meet an unprepared pastor who may not have a cohesive argument to answer any of your questions because, as you know, that would force to change your religion.
@@mariasoniamoreno3433 She didn't change her religion. She merely changed to a branch w/ less extra biblical additions that disturb our peace and trust in Christ's atonement. Christ is enough, we don't need to pay our sins when we already have an all sufficient savior and Lord.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Amen!🙏
It is appointed onto a man to die, and after death is judgement!
@lauraflood That is such a great point about sin abiding in our flesh in this life, but we are freed and covered completely by Jesus' atonement in our next life w/ God. Romans 8:1-3 covers this as well:
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
I will also read Romans 7, but Romans 8:2 immediately sprang to my mind when you said that. I will attempt to explain this next time a Catholic says they have to work off temporal sins.
How are you now and which church did you find a home in? I'm always fascinated when people come out of Catholicism. There are so many online testimonies about protestants becoming Catholic and the Catholics have a number of channels devoted just these testimonies. We seem to have many coming out too, but I mostly see mention of it in comments.
@@raphaelfeneje486 How does that verse deny purgatory? Your comment only shows how ignorant you are about that theological concept. When the judge hands out a judgement it is ONE judgement, but it could be death, freedom, or jail. So, purgatory would be jail for some time (life in jail is given in place of a death sentence in most places) and then freedom.
The denial of purgatory being ONE judgement is absurd, just a stubborn mindset that refuses to UNDERSTAND.
Mike Winger brought me here. Thanks for this video, excellent topic.
Yes, I watched it to the end for the second time. I deeply appreciate your pastoral heart. It is obvious that you have the intellect and passion of a true scholar, but, in the end, it is your love for the members of Christ's body that is your chief
motivation. Many Blessings.
"You never find purgatory (in the Bible) unless you're already looking for it." That comment is almost worth the whole video. Good job, sir!
I think you could take the transcript of this video and in short order turn it into a book.
You’ll never find sola scriptura in the Bible… regardless really.
@@tookie36Revelations 22:18-19 seems to disagree.
@@JWM5791 yes we should not add anything to the prophetic words found in the book of revelation…. The author is talking about his writings and not about the canon that was not even put together at the time. Nothing there to suggest sola scriptura which is why sola scriptura folk don’t tend to use such a passage.
@tookie36 ALL SCRIPTURE is God given. That means that we should not be exalting our ideas, or those of a denomination, over those words. Yes John was referencing Revelations, but the same reverance should be applied to EVERY SCRIPTURE.
@@JWM5791 see how you imported something into scripture that isn’t from scripture tho? Scripture is gods word. No need to add to it
Excellent video as always, pastor. 23:30 as a formerly identifying Catholic who has found a home in a protestant church but has yet to fully grapple with the doctrinal differences between the churches, I'd deeply appreciate you making this kind of video!
Thank you so much! Listened to it all…very helpful and appreciated. Bless you and your continued ministry.
I appreciate that you point out that it’s not true that everyone believed in purgatory for 1500 years, that Catholics claim. Thank you for going over those quotes in context.
Hey pastor Gavin. No problem with the length of this video. If you had made a 5 hours long video on the topic with every quote from the major church fathers and the catholic claim and your rebuttal, I would have watched it with no problem.
I like what Mike Winger did in the women in ministry series and I watched it all! I think the servant of the Lord needs to be diligent and escape from the “instantaneous” mentality of our age in which only “5 mins sermons” are acceptable.
Once again thanks so much for the clarity and research!
Purgatory is a good example of small errors due to some reasonable speculation snowballing and getting out of control. Each individual step isn't ridiculous but small steps add up to a long way.
Same thing happened with Marian dogmas and veneration of the saints.
@@toomanymarys7355 yup, they started as later trinity proofs, and when mixed with issues arising from the formulation of the hypostatic union and original sin, snowballed into the immaculate conception, Mary as sinless, perpetual virginity, and her role as co-redemtrix, co-magistrix, and eventually going totally left field with Queen of Heaven and "Our Lady of Guadalupe".
I liked Gavin's comment near the end that purgatory is only there if you decide to go and look for and find evidence for it
@@ravissary79 you have the problems posed by testimonials of all those who trust and believe and the miracles accompanying them. What to do with them? GK Chesterton helps on this subject
@@patricksee10 there are visions and testimonials for every religion on earth, for paganism, for reincarnation, for Mormonism. The issue isn't whether someone believes it and saw something once, but does it corroborate with scripture, did it align with the covenants, does it flow from the testimony of the apostles?
If it is merely built upon it, but doesn't flow from it, then that's not much different from Christian spin-off cults.
Watched all the way to the end. Thanks so much for your careful and thorough study and presentation.
Yes, I watched it all the way to the end. I grew up in the Orthodox Church and I have appreciated your talks in all of these areas. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting for our benefit.
Watched twice, all the way through. Worth it. Thank you!
You made very good philosophical company at 3am whilst I worked on my bookbinding final for uni - and yes, I watched all the way to the end ;))
Watched till the end. Learned a whole lot about purgatory and the arguments for and against it. And greatly appreciated the pastoral love at the end.
I am a former evangelical; Catholic since 2009. Thanks for your politeness, diligence, and authenticity. Question with all due respect: Why are you against accretion? There are countless examples of sound doctrine and teaching that you would agree with that didn’t develop for generations/centuries. Are mainstream protestants the luddites of the theological world? John 16:12. See also John Newman essay on the development of Christian doctrine if you haven’t already.
Thanks! Glad to be connected. I think it all depends on what we mean by “accretions.” The Protestant concern is that many Catholic beliefs represent slow build ups that result in error (eg, indulgences, Marian dogmas, venerating images). This is different from a mere development in the understanding of something the apostles taught.
Watched till the end twice.. rewatched the second time today as I have to teach my Sunday school class tomorrow about heresies and the topic is purgatory.. God bless your ministry Dr Ortlund.. lots of love from India...
God bless you in your teaching!
Heresy?
Thats bold.
Consider this
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 - Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Just discovered this channel thanks to Winger. Awesome video, I really enjoy church history. Thank you sir. Keep up the good work!
Me too. He referenced and linked one of Gavin’s videos. I am so grateful. This is an awesome channel.
I just found your channel, and I listened to the end and found it very interesting. I do take comfort in knowing that I will be with Jesus.
Oh interesting. Thanks for creating a long-form video on purgatory from a protestant perspective. I've never really thought deeply about the topic so I'm saving this video to be able to check it out later.
This is a great overview, Gavin.
I grew up Catholic but became a Protestant in high school. But then I earned an AA in history and a BA in theology from a Catholic university.
It was interesting being taught purgatory from a Catholic perspective and then needing to go research and learn the Protestant rejection and argumentation against it.
It has really helped over the years when sharing the gospel with my Catholic family, and I plan on sharing this with them.
I’m now a pastor of a 1689 Baptist church.
Where was the Church before the 1689 Baptist church came into existence?
If the Baptist church came into existence in 1689 by a group of men, why believe the Baptist church is the one true church when it did not exist from Christ and the apostles?
@@MrJohnmartin2009 I’m not a Baptist, but 1689 is the year that the 1689 London Baptist Confession was written and accepted. It’s referring to a confession of faith, not a denomination.
Your Catholic family has a better understanding of the Gospel than you. Try to leave them alone, if you want to be dammed, do that on your own.
@@jbchoc There is plenty of evidential support for purgatory in the fathers, the bible and reason. Dr Ortland's presentation is selective and does not account for how aberrant statements made by the fathers on any theological topic are integrated into a theological system that is historical and accounts for the unity of the faith and the working of the holy spirit within church history.
Your statement of course is thoroughly abhorrent.
@@MrJohnmartin2009
Can you explain what you mean? I’m not sure I understand what your 2nd to last sentence meant. Perhaps I’m too simple minded. :)
Listened all the way through whole packing for a trip. It was fascinating, and I thank you for sharing. 🙂
I watched it all in one sitting while crocheting a wedding present for my Catholic friend. I'm happy to be in fellowship with people from different traditions who love Jesus, but I'm also happy to be a Protestant.
I think that's a mature thought
An excellent statement of my perspective as well.
Great teaching! Such a deep, thorough, and honest dive into the origins of this strange doctrine. I watched to the end. Not surprising that the shortest part was the “scriptural basis” for purgatory.
Thank you so much for your ministry. It’s so comforting. 🤍
This is excellent. These complicated topics deserve time and depth. If you are concerned about the audience not having time and opportunity consider time stamps but dumbing it down is rarely the solution (edit : after I commented I saw the time stamps in the description :-) - leaving the comment for the sake of the algorithm)