Praying to the Saints: A Protestant Critique
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- In this video I lay out a Protestant perspective on the practice of praying to the saints, focusing on providing some historical context to the issue and clarifying what the historic Protestant concern has been.
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
SUPPORT:
Become a patron: / truthunites
One time donation: www.paypal.com/paypalme/truth...
FOLLOW:
Twitter: / gavinortlund
Facebook: / truthunitespage
Website: gavinortlund.com/
MY BOOKS:
gavinortlund.com/mypublications/
00:00 - Introduction
01:28 - Framing the Protestant Concern
03:50 - The Practical Concern
13:30 - The Historical Concern
As a life-long, practicing Catholic, a layman with 2 degrees from Catholic Universities in Theology/Religious Studies and a teacher for 31 years,
I agree with your critique. I NEVER used the term "praying to Mary/the saints" my whole time in the classroom because of the very reasons you mentioned. I always used "praying WITH the saints" or "asking their intercession." Those excerpts you used show absolutely clearly that God ALONE is the One we PRAY TO. Even when I was in high school (1965 -69) and heard that pious drivel to Mary or some saint I thought "This is all wrong." Currently there are all sorts of "mystics, seers, you-name-it) that claim Mary, or St. Michael are holding back the hand of God from sending His divine wrath down to sinful earth! GIMME A BREAK as the saying goes. Dr. Ortland, you do a favor to Protestants and Catholics of all stripes in explaining why this is absolutely contrary to Scripture AND to Catholic and Protestant theology. Excellent presentation. Thank you.
So when you address a Saint directly, you prayers are directed with them instead of to them? This is semantics. You pray to saints as you have no other means of communication to petition with. And Pious drivel? The Theotokos is THE Supreme intercessor and the most holy, spotless, and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant, more spacious than the heavens. You insult God when you belittle His mother.
That's just your personal preference
If I’d been taught by you, I might’ve converted.
@@BobanOrlovic theotokos was [actually is] a Christological term, pointing to the awesome wonder of God-made-flesh, using a human vessel. Mary would not be insulted by not directing prayers to her. She was a great woman - blessed +among+ women (not above), and would have no part of titles and crowns given to her, which rightly belong to the Son.
@@KristiLEvans1 I doubt if any true Christian has ever given the titles and crowns that belong to the son, to Mary. Mary is the mother of God, the ark of the covenant, the mother of the church, Theotokos, queen of heaven and earth because she is the Davidic queen, and our mother by baptism. None of these titles belong to her son.
Where, in the bible does it say she is NOT above other women?
"Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need."
[ Hebrews 4:14-16 ;NASB95 ]
If ever someone was able to articulate so wonderfully well, my deep thoughts, reasoning and firm convictions on this matter, it's got to be you Dr. Gavin. Thankyou for all your hard work and study.
As an Anglican, I totally agree with you. It seems that Mary has taken the place of the Holy Spirit in some quarters of the church. And I like the language of “praying with the Saints“. That’s certainly how we see our worship: we are joining the whole company of heaven as we worship together.
I just came out of serving in an intercessory team for a Catholic retreat. Interestingly enough, I was led TO the rosary by the Holy Spirit.
I actually understand your concern and I had this feeling as well of, "Why don't I appeal to the Holy Spirit more?" Even as a Catholic I had some reservations towards appealing to Mary because of my studies in trying to understand Protestant objections to Mary, even a couple of weeks ago.
But I think we should also consider that the Holy Spirit is in the spirit of the church and us. Mary and the Holy Spirit are not mutually exclusive. They both work TOGETHER! We may not always understand this at times, but the Apostles didn't always understand things either. Who knows, you might find yourself praying the rosary one day. :)
God bless!
@@regandonohue3899 To clarify beforehand, I don't hate you or anybody else who believes these things. If you believe in Jesus Christ as our God and redeemer, we're part of a family. Nothing I say next is an attack on you as an individual. But I strongly, strongly disagree with you, and I'm not going to mince words about it. You can just skip it if you want.
Words cannot express how revolting I find this whole concept. Mary was a human woman who acted faithfully and carried out her role according to God's will and design. She gave birth to Jesus in earthly form, and I'm thankful for her choice to believe and act in faith. But he was her God long before any of us was born and is her God still. He knit her together in the womb just as he did all of us. Regarding her with anything remotely approaching parity with the all-powerful, all-knowing, infinitely benevolent triune God that pre-existed her in eternal loving communion with himself is repulsive to me beyond description. The idea that she somehow works together with the Holy Spirit or placates Jesus to stay his judgment on us is just indescribably vile. In the NT, Jesus is explicitly described as our one mediator with God, and both he and the Holy Spirit are claimed to intercede for us. God LOVES us and intercedes on our behalf HIMSELF. Mary and the "saints" (by the RCC definition) are an entirely unnecessary complication. God doesn't need a 4th or a 5th part. He doesn't need the help or guiding counsel of a human woman or man, regardless of how faithful they might have been in life. He doesn't NEED anything. He's God, and we have direct access to him because he gave that gift to us in his infinite wisdom and mercy, which means we also lack nothing. He is perfectly merciful and loving toward us. His judgments are without flaw. The idea that a human, no matter how saintly, would need to convince God to be more loving and compassionate than he already is to us is incomprehensible and borderline heretical. The implication that Mary or anyone else could possibly have a more merciful heart toward sinners than Jesus is completely insane.
Even if there were nothing wrong with somehow including Mary in our relationship with God, which I don't accept, why would you want to? You can speak to God directly, so why would you ever not choose to? I'll never understand why people are so eager to layer things between themselves and God. People often conflate this type of prayer with asking other living people to pray for you. But when I do that, I ask them to pray directly to God while I also pray directly to God. I'm not putting them between me and God or asking them to relay a message/request for me. I'm asking them to stand beside me as we both commune with Him directly. It's not comparable to calling on Mary or a deceased saint to grant me something of their own virtue/merit or asking that they speak to God in my place about something that I'm unwilling, for whatever reason, to ask for myself. People often quibble about specific definitions of veneration vs. praise and praying to as opposed to praying through (or with) and all sorts of other minuscule distinctions, but I don't see the point. Why even approach that line when you have direct access to communicate with the actual God of the universe? Especially when it's evident that many people blow completely past the line. It's an unnecessary encumbrance to our perfect line of communication with God, and it's apparent that it trips up many people who take it too far.
@@grey7987 I totally agree with you. You perfectly discribed my thoughts on the issue. I find it truly annoying when some people want to convince us by saying "we do not worship the saints", "prayer isn't worship", "praying to saints is like asking a church brother to pray for you" ... without understanding our point. It is sad that some christians don't see what kind of sin they are doing. If calling Mary "our hope", "the most beautiful", "Queen of Heaven", "giver of grace and forgiveness", orning her icons and statues with luxuries, kissing her images, bowing more than two seconds in front of her images, carrying her images like we carry the pope or organizing parades and celebrations for her are not the same as "worshipping", then I don't know what it is. Christians should focus more on the Bible and the Holy Spirit instead of traditions, pope and saints.
I know that christians are humans to. We all can fall into idolatry, so it's why God send us Jesus Christ to die for us and forgive our sin, for sinners like us can trust in Him only to obtain eternal peace. Christ is our only hope and the only King of Heaven.
God bless you, and may His Spirit continue to give you wisdom and love.
@@regandonohue3899
If you look at the prayers in the Old Testament, and certainly the prayers in the New Testament, there is no mention of Mary. The Lord’s prayer has no mention of Mary. The book of Revelation, which gives us a glimpse into heaven, does not have the saints praying to Mary or even with Mary. So Scripture would be my first and primary model for Prayer.
@@Apriluser I would say that that depends entirely on the tradition from which you are reading from.
The first half of the Hail Mary, as well the Eastern Rejoice O Virgin Theotokos, are both directly from scripture. The Magnificat (My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord) is also from scripture.
The book of Revelation describes "the woman clothed with the sun", who is believed to be Mary.
I was born into a pastor's family in 1991, in 2015 I became a part of the Orthodox Church and an active apologist for Orthodoxy in Georgia, because during the study of the history of the Church I thought I had found the "Apostolic Church" with "immutable truths" and now I am starting to return to evangelism again, and one of the reasons What has become an insurmountable dilemma for me is exactly praying with the saints.
Praise God, may he lead you to his truth, through the Son, by the Spirit
I’d recommend you understand both point of views before you give in to itching ears.
ua-cam.com/users/shortsF5pJTz5EA0k?feature=share
@@mmore242 :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Do not be swayed by the wind. I will pray that God reveal the truth to you so you may hold fast to it. ua-cam.com/video/2uBI12PeQXk/v-deo.html
That's very interesting, stories like these are very rare and I wish more people would talk about them. I think they are helpful to people trying to discern the different denominations, sadly it seems that people converting to Protestantism tend to be less eager to share their story, I do wonder why
As a Protestant I agree we cant pray to the Saints, but they are Heros of faith that should be emulated, and held up as an example to live up to.
Hebrews chapter 11, the great faith chapter.
So every saint canonized by the Catholic Church has confirmed miracles associated w their intercession. Curious to know what you think about that. Is it not possible that it's a sign from God that he approves of the prayer offered by the saint and that it might be His will to allow the communion of saints to be actively involved in lifting each other up and closer to Him? And that he may choose to honor the saints who served Him well in life?
Or do you just think every instance is just not actually a miracle or that it's been doctored up somehow?
@@dailyDorcEven Satan can do counterfeit miracles, so as to deceive God’s elect. If the miracle points anywhere but to God, I would question the source.
@@sueregan2782 all the Saints point to God. And God can choose to honor his Saints by working miracles through them. Acts 5:15-16 Peters shadow heals. Acts 19:20 Paul's handkerchief or apron causes diseases to depart. So when prayers asking for the intercession of a Saint or the relic of a Saint, who spent their whole life pointing people to God, causes a miracle we don't look at that and say oh it's pointing away from God it must be demonic.
Thank you Pastor Gavin for refuting the lie of “being deep in history is to cease being Protestant.” Thank you, for being a living example, that this statement is simply not true.
Read Luke 16
Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.
Yup! That’s a prayer to Father Abraham
Being deep in history makes one question some of Protestant worship, not necessarily historic Protestant theology.
@@Apriluser there is no Protestant theology. There are many ideas out there that a Protestant can believe, some are Christian and some aren’t.
@@EricAlHarb Why would you model your behavior off a guy who's also dead, burning in hell at the time (so obviously not a good moral example), and had both his pleas flatly rejected by said Saint? The Bible tells us about Saul calling up Samuel's spirit, that doesn't mean it's endorsing that behavior.
Also, I might add that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, so the Rich Man and his situation could very well be a fictional invention Jesus came up with for the sake of making a point...
Luke 16 speaks of a dead rich man calling out to Abraham from torment,. He was not praying to Abraham, but rather yelling at him, and he was also dead himself! What a fallacious example of prayer to the dead.
Yes! 👍🏼 Thanks again. Yes, in the entire Bible, Old Testament and New, all believers always, without exception, pray directly to God the Father. Always.
And, I'd just like to add that, as we know, in God's Word, "the Saints" are we believers and not some special category of Christian as per Roman Catholic practice and teaching.
Thanks again Gavin. 👌🏼
Saints turn out a special category of christians. Saints are literally people in heaven. And that is all of God's people. Now while you are called to be a Saint and possibly could be a Saint, It doesn't mean you will be one.
Hence that is why we make a distinction between believer and saint.
You act as if our distinctions are irreconcilable is concilable to your own position. They're not.
Thankfully the Apostolic traditions at large do include these things, of which the Bible is a part
Do you include Maccabees in your entire Bible?
Why do you reject the Coptic Scriptures?
@@thepalegalilean in His Word (the Bible) God makes no such distinction. A Saint is simply a believer in Christ Jesus. Period. And the Roman Catholic "saints" are all asleep, according to God's Word ( the Bible). No really. Here it is. Check it out.
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
Got it?
I’ll stick to praying to God alone, and respecting the Saints including the ones still living.
Theosis, The Church is the body of Christ. It is impossible to say "God Alone" and just ignore the body of Christ. Being in communion with God, means being in communion with every Christian.
@@haronsmith8974 It's not impossible to say God alone. The Church is the body of Christ, but it's Christ bride and submits to the Head, which is Christ. Nowhere was it taught to pray to anybody aside God. Jesus didn't pray to Moses or Elijah, the Apostles didn't pray to them too.
@@raphaelfeneje486 if you read Ephesians 4 it literally says we are to become like the head in EVERY way. Also on top of that Jesus even gave parables of Abraham interceding for the rich man in hell.
And yes you should look up the actual definition of pray and you’ll see that Jesus did use Elijah and moses for intercession.
@@haronsmith8974 1. Abraham never interceded for the rich man. In fact it has nothing to do here because they both are dead and there wasn't any form of intercession, rather it was the rich man begging and Lazarus was telling him of his mistakes. You should read your Bible often 2. I don't know how you jumped from we are to become like head to praying to dead saints. That's worse than magic. Are we reading the same Bible?? 3. Praying to dead saints, is already assuming they're omniscient and possess the attributes of God. 4. Nowhere Jesus prayed to Moses and Elijah. Show me the verse. That's the problem with Roman Catholics and Eastern orthodox. They throw away the Bible or read into the text what's not there. 5. I know the meaning of prayer, and nowhere was there a distinction nor prayer offered to dead saints.
Now the question is this, seeing that we can approach God in prayer and obtain whatever we want, why do you pray to them?? Why must you??
@@raphaelfeneje486
1) Yes Abraham interceded for the rich man. Luke 16:19-31 Shows three things that are important to show the intercession of the saints.
Luke 16:v24 shows that Jews were okay with asking people in heaven to come to their aid. This is also Jesus giving the example btw because hes the one giving the parable.
Luke 16:v25 shows the potential omnipotence of the saints as Abraham KNOWS not only the judgement of the rich man but also all the misdeeds he did during his life.
Luke 16:v26 shows that there is a great chasm between them. They're not face to face or in person with each other. That they do not need to physically be next to each other for saint intercession.
Maybe you should actually understand the context of scripture before lecturing people about reading it.
2) Jesus is the new Adam as St Paul states it. The Saints are to become like Jesus Christ in every way Ephesians 4(Read the whole chapter) but specifically v15.
Also read 1 Corinthians 12 v12-30
Baptism doesn't just make us part of the Body of Christ but also v27 the Body of Christ itself.
Its called Theosis, the point of the Church is to make Christians into and a part of Jesus Christ. Youll get this if you read the Church Fathers, and youll come to understand scripture even more.
3) Answered this in 1
4) This is the problem with Sola Scriptura, it assumes your random uneducated person can just pick up scripture and not understand the context behind the obscurity of scripture.
I became Catholic because I studied scripture at a graduate level in university.
5) The historic use of the word pray was a request. Have you ever read Shakespear? Look at how people used the word pray until fundamentalists hijacked the word in the modern century.
I have one very simply question to all my Catholic and Orthodox friends. One that usually opens a door to seeing things from a Protestant perspective. "What would Mary think of so many people expending huge amounts of time and energy on prayer and veneration directed at her (or through her) rather than God himself?" It is obvious to all Christians that Mary, who we all believe is blessed most highly of all woman, would want our entire focus on the Trinity.
I think she has joy to know that her children love her so much, and the they are relying on her to bring them to her Son that we might all be in heaven together.
Mary would be filled with joy knowing that people honor her, as without her, there would be no Christ. Marian prayers have been a thing for nearly 2 thousand years, it clearly has the co-sign of the Holy Spirit.
I think you have a pretty unrealistic idea of how much time catholic and orthodox spend praying for the most Holy Theotokos intercession opposed to praying to God. I pray three times a day not including my prayers I say at meals and each prayer time usually has one or two prayers to the most Holy mother for intercession that take less then 5 minutes. The real question you should ask yourself is do you take issue with adding extra prayers for intercession because you don’t believe in intercession or because your lazy and rather do secular things then pray. Most people I find who are against orthodoxy are against it because they want hear a 45 Minute sermon once a week then spend the rest of the week being secular.
@@Bartholomaios7 Do you really believe that Orthodox Christians aren't "secular"?
@@choicemeatrandy6572 I would say most orthodox Christians fight against secularism. I live my life for Christ, I do my best to avoid the things of this world and the traps the secular world lies. I think it would be wise to note there exists many European nations where orthodox Christianity is the state religion. So yes I think as a whole orthodoxy recognizes and fights secularism better then other denominations. I do not know of any countries where Protestantism is the state religion. In fact the United States was founded by Protestants and by the constitution they wrote created a completely secular government devoid of Christ.
I am Catholic and will remain Catholic and really appreciate Gavin Ortlund’s charity in disagreeing with Catholic theology.
Thank you. Once more excellent content presented with the right tone. As a Protestant pastor it felt like you were speaking for me.
Thanks James, so glad it was useful to you!
@@TruthUnites made me think of this quote from CS LEWIS
C. S. Lewis, “But Hail Marys raise a doctrinal question: whether it is lawful to address devotions to any creature, however holy. My own view would be that a salute to any saint (or angel) cannot in itself be wrong any more than taking off one’s hat to a friend: but that there is always some danger lest such practices start one on the road to a state (sometimes found in Roman Catholics) where the Blessed Virgin Mary is treated really as a deity and even becomes the centre of the religion. I therefore think that such salutes are better avoided. And if the Blessed Virgin is as good as the best mothers I have known, she does not want any of the attention which might have gone to her Son diverted to herself.” Letter to Mary van Deusen June 26, 1952.
As a former Orthodox, in discussion with Orthodox who use the passages you referred to as why they pray to the saints is timley. I needed some historical context and the Lord guided me to this video, definitely not a coincidence. 🙏
You mention you are former Orthodox. What branch of Christian are you now, and do you still believe in praying to saints? I would be very interested to hear how your beliefs have changed and why they did, as a former insider.
@saintejeannedarc9460 Greek Orthodox. When I didn't know any better, I used to follow what I was taught by my parents. Then, when I got saved, I realized that spending a whole year doing nothing but working, reading the Bible, and attending a non-denominational Protestant church that I was misled by the Orthodox Church and their teaching. It's not biblical to pray to saints in heaven. The saints here on earth are to pray for one another. Mary is not the intercessior between man and God. It's Jesus taken straight out of the Bible. The Orthodox Church will always use writing from the "church fathers" to prove their ideology, but it goes against the bible. Everything I follow is from the bible. Can you learn from commentary, yes, but if it's opposite to the bible, it should be set aside since the bible is inspired and the writings of men are not. This does not mean I hate Orthodox people. I'm opposed to the Orthodox Church teaching.
I am also a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but I accepted and surrendered my life to the Lord Jesus Christ and now I am going to be studying Biblical Studies at Moody. I am praying to the Lord for a biblical centered church. I have many issues with the theology of Eastern Orthodox Church since coming to Christ and studying the Bible, taking online courses and Bible studies courses since my acceptance of Jesus in my life. I even heard of Joshua Schooping who left the Eastern Orthodox Church. It is a long journey, but I believe that the Lord is guiding me.
@tigger55100 Praise God, know that family members and others will come against you, but stay faithful and only return love for the anger and hatred they show you.
@@tigger55100 I'm always very interested to hear about how this happens. Orthodoxy and Catholicism do not seem like easy branches of Christianity to leave, as they are so comprehensive and ingrained in believers. Do you mind sharing a little about how this came about and what your issues w/ Orthodox theology are? I did see a bit of Joshua Schooping, I think on Gavin's channel.
As an Orthodox, this is probably the only area where I feel aligned with protestants.
Is that allowed?? Isn’t this tied to icons? I’ve seen them anathematize anyone who questions these practices in their liturgy. I ask cuz I was considering EO, but I can’t seem to get around the venerations of and praying to Mary and the saints issue. 😰
Thank you for the informative videos, brother. Keep up the good work and God bless.
You're such a blessing! I watch your videos all the time and l learn new things. Keep what you doing my brother.
Thanks Aaron, glad they are of value to you!
the way you articulate is my favorite. I know hanging on the words chosen and the manner in which they are chosen is not a popular habit, but for those of us that enjoy that, this is great. you'd definitely be someone I'd love to chat with just so I could listen to the framing and delivery of your perspective on things.
Glad you found the video useful, thanks!
Very helpful in thinking about the historic trajectory. Really excited about the book too!
Thanks Mark!
Appreciate your work Gavin.
Thank you for your work. It’s much appreciated.
I don’t buy the whole “ever-virgin and sinless Mary”, either. The Bible says, “For ALL have sinned…”
They forgot Jesus at the temple .-.
@@kriegjaeger jesus never sinned, at the temple, Jesus showed a righteous/ godly anger.
Mary was a married woman.
What kind of married woman wouldn't sleep with her own husband?
Another great video! Thank you brother.
Thanks James, glad you enjoyed!
Such a great video- you express so many concerns that I've had that I wasn't quite able to articulate. Thank you for your peaceful dialogue in all your videos!
Thanks Anna! So glad it was useful! Yes, I'm committed to peaceful dialogue -- I find it is both more productive as well as more enjoyable.
I agree with you and very concerning and I speak for myself I could know more about my own Protestant history. It has, just been through channels like this that have awakened me for the need to know why I am Protestant.
So glad it's been helpful, thanks!
Protestantism is a total farce and joke. Become Orthodox
@@mclkr9174 So a billion Christians who love the Lord and those that have been martyred are part of something that is farce and a joke? Whatever you have been listening to could be that farce and a joke.
@@jotink1 protestants cannot be martyrs because they dont actually understand anything about christianity. You worship what you do not know
@@mclkr9174 well said...
I needed to hear everything you you so eloquently stated. Thank you!
2 very valid points! Keep it up.
Thank you for making this content! I enjoy it! 🙏
THANK YOU for explaining this so simply! It validates what I've been trying to tell my family members BUT now I can show them this video!!
I like your content. I grew up in a small Free Will Baptist Church(protestant). I recieved the Holy Spirit and was Baptised in the name of the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. I learned about the Covenant of Grace and was taught with the Bible(i can go and read for myself what i learned as a teen). I also believe the Bible is the Highest Authority on earth. But recently got engaged to a catholic woman. I opened my heart to learn unbiasedly. I love history and like concrete evidenced used. God has really blessed us both and i hope i can learn the tradition and theology side of the catholic faith and she can openly learn my side but also at the end of the day every choice and thing we do Honors God Almighty above all
a good overview of this issue, and yes, I believe it was irenic in nature, while holding fast to the truth of these accretions. Thanks for doing this Gavin.
Really good video. And well put! Thank you. God bless you.
agree with your point; that often in theory and in practice are very different. very fair and thoughtful critique
The timing of your video is very appropriate. So soon after Matt and Cameron have been arguing about this.
The concerns/problems you point out don't seem like they would be unfamiliar to the Catholic or Orthodox.
Sometimes it feels like gaslighting when I hear someone explain prayers to saint as a mere "prayer request" when even the official prayers of the Catholic church seem to be suplicating the saints for what can only be given by God.
Great point. The defenses sometimes make it sound more benign than it really is, it seems.
James, Again, just as many in the early Church sought the mediation and intercession of mere human beings like Peter and Paul and their prayers and shadow and handkerchiefs, so too even now, for NOT EVEN DEATH CAN SEPARATE US. Especially the Mother of God, she who moved her Son and Lord to perform His public miracle, even though it was not yet His hour, touched by His Mother's compassion for the wedding couple, as the prayers of a righteous person have great power in it's effects. Jesus Christ teaches that when we die, we become like Angels, and Angels present our prayers before the throne of God! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
@@TruthUnites Not a great point at all really, for how did Peter know that Ananias and Sapphira had withheld money in Acts 5? God allowed Peter to know! This is why Jesus Christ teaches when we die, we become like Angels and Angels present our prayers before the throne of God, as God allows the Angels to know these prayers! Just as many in the early Church sought the mediation and intercession of mere human beings like Peter and Paul and their prayers and shadow and handkerchiefs, so too even now, for NOT EVEN DEATH CAN SEPARATE US! Especially the Mother of God, she who moved her Son and Lord to perform His public miracle, even though it was not yet His hour, touched by His Mother's compassion for the wedding couple, as the prayers of a righteous person have great power in it's effects! Peace always in Jesus Christ our Great and Kind God and Savior, He whose Flesh is true food and Blood true drink
I heard it’s called the Motte and Bailey fallacy. It’s where the arguer conflates two points that share similarities, with one being easy to defend, and the controversial one is smuggled in later.
@@matthewbroderick6287 *Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:*
_On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_
Thank you for the observations.
Gavin, thank you for your videos! I often feel completely overwhelmed when Catholic friends ask me for opinions on these topics, so thank you for making a concise, logically organized video that provides me with some key context history to make my point instead of just saying "it's not in the Bible" or trying to make an appeal without evidence.
God bless you, Doc Gavin! Somehow I need to get you in front of my RC dad. You have blessed my life much, thank the Lord
Hey. I love when a Baptist says "In the Augsburg Confession." And a great, concise presentation and critique of the issue.
This Baptist loves the Lutherans. Chemnitz has been a great companion over the last 6 months.
@@TruthUnites Chemnitz is brilliant. Hope you find William Perkins, Francis Turretian, and William Goode as well.
@@TruthUnites I just found this video on your UA-cam channel, which will help for my debate against an eastern orthodox priest at the end of the month. Very interesting to see how this “developed“ over time, which was not developed from the New Testament nor from the first couple hundred years of the church era. It’s interesting that a lot of beliefs that Roman Catholics and eastern orthodox share began around the time of Origen. And ironically, he’s considered a heretic in the Roman Catholic Church. Lol.
@@BornAgainRN Glad you found it! God bless you in your work!
@@TruthUnites my debate against an Eastern Orthodox priest on prayer to Mary & the saints got rescheduled for TODAY, February 27th at 8pm EST, on "Standing For Truth." I wanted to let you know that I am planning on using a couple of your arguments you used in this video, which I will be citing you & your channel as a reference. If you don't have a podcast tonight, I hope you get the chance to check it out. Here is the direct link to the UA-cam debate:
ua-cam.com/video/pQno2PUxPBs/v-deo.html
That new branding though👀 Looks great!
Thanks! New intro and outro in the works also …
Yes. I agree.
Thank you for this concise and thoughtful presentation.
Love the new logo!!!
Thanks a lot! I do, too. Got help from a very generous friend.
Great video Ortlund
Thanks Noah!
Great video!
Your videos are tremendous. I am former SBC pastor now Cumberland Presbyterian.
Thanks Gavin
Thanks for the research and background. These are my same views I have. Any chance you can share links to the references?
I thank God for all the prayerful believers in all denominations. Keep praying!
These teachings were what I grew up with in the Catholic church in the mid 20th Century. But after completing a three year Bible study in the early 60’s, I could no longer consider Mary and other saints as my mediators. It is what keeps me from even considering going back to the Roman church, after years of going to God alone, through Jesus.
In the Book of Kings,
- who was the Queen?
- what role did she have on behalf of the people?
- how did the King greet her?
- where did she sit?
Keep in mind, Jesus is the King of Kings, and that the Old prefigures a greater fulfillment in the New.
Sounds like your reaching for a meaning and have scripture imply your truths @@TruthHasSpoken
@@dallasbrat81 What are the answers?
In the Book of Kings,
- who was the Queen?
- what role did she have on behalf of the people?
- how did the King greet her?
- where did she sit?
@@TruthHasSpoken Try and give me a verse and stop ignoring Jesus words in Luke 11:27-28 . This is the time Jesus could have made the case and didn’t instead you like to dance to own conclusion
@@dallasbrat81 St Bede's commentary on Luke 11 27/28 is an excellent exegesis of the text.
_But she was the mother of God, and therefore indeed blessed, in that she was made the temporal minister of the Word becoming incarnate; yet therefore much more blessed that she remained the eternal keeper of the same ever to be beloved Word. But this expression startles the wise men of the Jews, who sought not to hear and keep the word of God, but to deny and blaspheme it._
"Try and give me a verse"
Go to 1 Kings 2. Read the entire chapter. Slow down beginning in v13. Keep the questions in front of you:
- who was the Queen?
- what role did she have on behalf of the people?
- how did the King greet her?
- where did she sit?
The best cure for protestantism is ... education (and not dancing to one's fallible interpretation of the text)
Appreciate the information. Thank you.
Doesn’t the Bible say that there is ONE mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus?
catholics do not really care about the bible...
My friend you are right.
John 14:6
King James Version
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. There's nothing in there about Mary or Saints.
Jesus was the only one crucified and sacrificed for our sins. Only he shed that pure blood for our sins and for that I will respectfully as he commanded speak through him to God.
Tell the world
Indeed! But, respectfully, look at the context of that verse: Paul is instructing Timothy to make intercession for kings and those in authority *because* there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Now, you can still argue petitioning the saints for their intercession isn’t warranted for some other reason, but not because it’s interfering with the mediation of Christ… the grounding for intercession *is* His mediation!
Really enjoy these videos, I always learn something and these topics are always clarified, in charity.
I would love to listen to a dialogue with Trent Horn, whom I also always learn something and gleen clarification.
Look forward to more!!
so glad you enjoy them, thanks for letting me know!
“Time spent praying to Mary could be time spent praying to Jesus Himself.”
CS Lewis
The great church Father cs lewis 😂
Really appreciate this thorough information. All of these things are completely foreign as a Protestant, really good to hear research about it.
Great video! Was wondering if you possibly had a link or the name of a volume where I can find that specific prayer from the Ordinarium of the Church of Hildesheim.
Great presentation& much needed. Is there any good books on praying to the saints- protestant view?
I love reading the old stuff! John Calvin and Martin Chemnitz are good. Unfortunately there are not as many recent treatments. That is why I'm hoping to do more work in this area.
@@TruthUnites Really wonderful to have such good content. Was looking for such meaningful ones. Sad to hear that there's not much resources in this field. God raises the right people in His perfect time.
Thank you for this video. It was very informative. One thing you didn't mention, Dr. Ortlund, but it is possibly outside the scope of what you wanted to say here, is that prayers offered to saints are prayers not requested from local brothers and sisters. I have often considered that along with the Holy Spirit granting different gifts to different members in order that we may build one another up, so too praying for one another and requesting prayer from one another both serve to edify, encourage the growth in love and promote unity. For prayer turns our minds to one another, and requesting prayer develops relationships.
Interesting point, thanks!
@@TruthUnites Not to mention, not everyone has great friends in Christ to journey through life with. Looking to the saints as spiritual friends, gifts from God who built up the church, has been especially important in my faith especially when good friends are sometimes hard to find. I know your point about venerating saints too, but I consider it important to try to connect in a physical way with these "friends in Christ." I know it may seem crazy to outsiders, but its like if a therapist tells a couple to hold hands more if they're having marital issues. We are human and sometimes venerating saints might actually make sense to foster a real connection with the communion of saints which is very much alive and perhaps more alive.
Love love love this response! I recently been looking into the Catholic Church as my Grandma is Catholic. I am Protestant (Baptist) and I had some issues with the prayer of saints and I really like your critique!
Gavin, I’m continually helped by your work on YT. Good exhortation to Protestants (like myself) to make time to learn our historical concerns in rejecting or positively formulating doctrine.
It’s ironic with this specific doctrine that we forget how to articulate our historical relations to the saints in heaven, who lived in union with the Christ by the Spirit, in history.
glad its helpful to you!
Very thoughtful and concise presentation. I'm protestant with Orthodox leanings. But I cringe at some of the titles that are given to Mary. She is forever blessed and is to be honored. However, I see no scriptural basis for praying to anyone but the Father through Jesus Christ.
So, I was a Protestant pastor and had been so in a few denominations. My degrees are in both church history and counseling. I leaned Orthodox, and now I am an Orthodox catechumen, God willing, my family and I’ll will be baptized orthodox on Dec 24th.
As someone becoming orthodox, there are three major issues I find with his arguments that need to be addressed. The first is “A good guy needs a gun because bad guys have them.”
What I mean by this is the argument of, “anything is a weapon in the hands of a mad man.” In this video he takes little to no offense at the language used in these prayers. However, his only defense against them is how people have abused them through medieval history. As an ex-Protestant pastor, I have seen many pastors abuse their people with good things. Abused them for not opening their Bible enough. Abused their desire to volunteer. Abused them for not being more fervent about coming to church. A mad man will take a tool, and use it as a weapon, and I think that is perfectly illustrated here. So, once again, there is no danger in praying to the saints, but there is danger within the prideful inclinations of the heart.
As a “soon to be orthodox Christian,” the other issue I see in this video is the lumping of all who have a prayer to the saints. Canonization is very different in Catholicism from orthodoxy. It is so different that Orthodoxy does not recognize Catholic saints who were canonized after the great schism. As such our veneration of saints is wildly different. It may not look that way to outsiders but to insiders it does. For one, in Catholicism, Mary forgives sin, where as in Orthodoxy our example is the wedding feast where The Mother of God asks Jesus to turn water into wine and even though it isn’t his time, he joyfully does so. If God opposes the proud, there’s nothing more humbling than recognizing your so sinful that you need all the help you can get. This doesn’t make God despise you, but makes him want to draw near to you. The Theotokos intercedes, and Christ draws near to us. We even have prayers that mention that it is possible to receive the Theotokos’s mercy and still be found guilty. God desires to show mercy, and Jesus also loves granting his mother’s requests.
Finally, as the psalm says, “God is glorified in his saints.” Without the saints there is no means by which to see and experience the glory of the Lord within God’s church. Maybe that’s why so many Protestant churches are lifeless, fractured and fracturing, or given over to sensual self-love trends. Praying to the saints is one of the biggest evidences for Jesus defeating death, because not even death can separate us!
These truths, though, cannot be intellectualized and they can’t be emotionally obtained. They only happen as a result of a genuine pursuit of him in his church and then they start making sense. However, they make sense not in the intellect, nor in the heart, but the nous. Otherwise the amount of arguments can be endless.
In short, experience these things in the Orthodox Church and then they start to make sense. They seem like foolishness to outsiders, but that’s exactly how God designed is. God has chosen the foolish ones in the world to confound the wise.
@@zekedog1990 "However, his only defense against them is how people have abused them through mideaval history."
That is simply wrong. You must watch this video again. One of his argument was that this was not an early church practise. Didn't you see that?
@@commencater yes, but that’s also incorrect because it was also not only an early church practice but also an ancient Jewish practice. The problem is that many modern scholars look to archeologists for their history because of a lack of trust in oral history, tradition, and ancient historical texts and the result is a general guesstimation of of what ancient people believed and did. This is because of the lack of understanding of how honor-based/shame-based cultures work. Oral tradition and ancient writings are extremely reliable because of how much time, care, and money went into preserving them. Changing these things in These cultures could mean your death or being anathema. Many humanist/gnostic intellectuals dismiss these accounts because it came from people. And people are unreliable. However, this is based on an innovative or Democratic worldview. This worldview did not exist in the early church. Now, there were those who disagreed with these things, but, they are disagreement had no staying power proving that it was not of God.
However, to be fair, Mary the Mother of God was venerated both when she was alive and also after she had reposed. But, the way in which all orthodox everywhere venerate her did solidify overtime. Heresy would rise up and the defeat of that heresy would give birth to The way in which she was venerated. There have been countless of songs to The Theotokos that have been written in a more modern setting. However, they don’t become a part of church tradition unless they are accepted by all orthodox everywhere.
In Protestantism, people have been abused by the fallible infallible pope, passion filled angry arrogant leaders like Martin Luther, countless morally perverse prosperity and celebrity pastors, etc. that it seems wrong to trust the account of ancient church fathers. However, this is where faith comes in. If the Church is the body of Christ then it cannot live and exist with heresy. To believe that you can agree to disagree with different denominations is in itself blasphemy because what a person is saying is that imperfections can reproduce and perpetuate within the body of Christ. People aren’t perfect but the church throughout history should have remained the same from the very beginning. This has been true of only one church, and this is the orthodox church. The services have been shortened since the first service, expressions within orthodox churches can be diverse, there can be cultural differences in the way that the words are song and the art is painted, but there is no innovation. Even the Bible was not an innovation but a preserving of what had always been.
@@zekedog1990 All of our experiences, as christians, need to be submitted to Biblical evaluation. And when I evaluate Orthodox doctrines and practices with the Bible I find no room for somethings such as Praying to the saints (even if you distort that passage in Hebrews or Revelation), praying to Mary, the necessity of an iconography (not use them only pedagogycally), the necessity to a bishop to be a single man, hesychaism... and soooo on. You talked about humility. I advise you to look for Joshua Schooping's videos here at the UA-cam, and maybe... how about write him an email and see his points?... investigate it a little further, considering he is someone who spent more time than you in Eastern Orthodoxy and know it from within.
God bless
@@josueinhan8436 Thank you for your reply, funny thing is, I was actually a protestant missionary in Romania where it was my sole commission to convert what was referred to me as pagan orthodox Christians away from their paganism. So, this is actually subject I have a lot of familiarity with. And ultimately, what led me to orthodoxy, was the idea that everything had to come from the Bible.
The reason being is that there is a massive and huge issue with everything needing to be weighed by the Bible. For one, many different doctors and theologians and professors and lay people will all look at the Bible and come back with different interpretations. The excuse was the Bible can mean different things to different people. However, that is the most dangerous notion. The most dangerous notion that anyone could think of is that the Bible means different things to different people. If we take this approach anybody can look at the Bible and come up with a different idea. It’s why you and I can disagree on the scriptures in the Bible where they talk about the veneration of the Saints.
So then I began to ask questions like, “what is the true understanding of the Bible?” And as I begin to ask this question I found that there was no clear or conclusive understanding of it. Theologians, archaeologists, pastors and denominations couldn’t agree on the same thing. Why does Christ give forgiveness of sins to his disciples? Why does the Bible say the only faith is necessary for salvation but that works are also completely necessary to salvation. When did works begin, and faith end for salvation? Why does Paul say it’s necessary to be baptized in order to have remission of sins but the thief on the cross doesn’t need baptism. Why does Christ insist that the elements are the body and blood of Christ but we believe it to mean symbolically? Why are some people raising the bread and others flattening it out for communion?
However, the biggest issue with all of this is that we have to weigh everything in the church against the Bible, lays the greatest heresy. For one, we are saying that the created, creates the uncreated. Jesus is uncreated, therefore the body of Christ, the church, is uncreated, but, it comes after the created, the Bible. In Orthodoxy the uncreated came before the created. In Protestantism, the created should form and dictate the uncreated. Limits should limit the unlimited. This is justified by the scripture where it speaks about the word of God, but it completely neglects the fact that the word of God was always looked at as being the logos, not the Bible. The scriptures predates the formation of the Bible. Again the created word of God, the Bible, is used as a measuring stick for the limitless uncreated Savior Jesus Christ and his body the church. So how is one supposed to understand the Bible if the church is uncreated and the Bible is defined and created. Well, simply, the two of them work together.
This only works in orthodoxy because it was established before the creation of the Bible. Therefore the Church and the Bible worked hand-in-hand with each other. The church is needed as a key to understand the Bible, and the Bible works as a protection to the church.
Protestant churches came out of the Catholic Church which divorced the church Jesus started. This meant that the protestant churches had no choice but to base their church on their understanding of Scripture, but they are based on a flawed understanding of Scripture which is why the Protestant churches have fractured thousands upon thousands upon thousands of times. The fact that so many theologians, archaeologists, pastors, etc. can so vehemently disagree with each other, even in the middle of their own denominations, should be evidence and proof that there understanding of Scripture is inherently flawed. The Bible is not like the Quran, it is not uncreated, it was created through the body of Christ which is the church, therefore it needs the church that Jesus started in order to understand it.
Thank you Gavin for a lucid and frank view of how many protestants see the issue of prayers to the saints. It’s always helpful for everyone, and in this case I would say particularly Catholics, to understand more about how others view such important issues that Catholics (& Orthodox) believe in.
That being said, I think that it is important that we don’t pigeon-hole or caricature all protestants. There are protestants who do pray to the saints, including some Anglicans. Also, it is worth pointing out that while Luther was addressing the doctrines of Mary in his work 'Magnificat', he specifically tells the faithful that they should pray to Mary’. Also, C.S. Lewis, in one of his 'Letters to Malcolm' says that while he does not pray the saints himself, that "There is clearly a theological defence for it...who am I to judge the practices of others?"
It can be easy to say that all protestants hold to one specific view, but it’s important to acknowledge that not all protestants are of one mind on this issue.
Hey Taylor, good to see you today. You're certainly right that you can find a few Protestants who believe in praying to the saints. I'm not aware that I've claimed otherwise, so I don't really perceive the relevance of your comment. But I appreciate you engaging the video, and glad you found its broader point to have some use!
This was excellent
Awesome video!
Thanks very much Gavin for the historical context. As someone who’s interested in church history, I find very helpful indeed, especially the sources you quote from.
People don't understood how much of an issue this is. In Latin America, many Catholics essentially worship Mary. There is a show from Mexico about miracles of Mary. God is never mentioned in the show. I've heard of some who I have said that they don't believe in Jesus (the main character of evangelicalism in their minds) but only Mary. This is not to blame the Vatican since they can't control everybody, but their practices were basically the gateway to these practices. Finally, in these conversations, people avoid the way that this can also be considered necromancy. I've heard some try to justify this by saying the saints aren't truly dead, but nevertheless, God has a strong prohibition on speaking to the dead which in the minds of ancient Jews, is someone who is physically dead. I just can't see how ancient Jewish believers, both OT and NT, would be ok with this.
A Person, the miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe explains some of the Latin American devotion to Mary. Look it up. This image, not made by human hands, is in the Cathedral in Mexico City.
Yes, you are right that too many Catholics don't actually know their Catholic doctrine. But the problem is not appealing the saints' intercession but the lack of catechization of the flock. The Church needs to instruct us weak Catholics so we don't fall into erroneous practices or beliefs. However, for serious believers, the Catechism of the Chruch gives us the authoritative answers. Thank you, Lord!!
You absolutely should blame the Vatican. This is a widespread and very serious issue. What's the point of having a single head of the church who can declare doctrine for all if he doesn't use his power to stamp out such heresy and idolatry?
Even the Antichrist can perform signs and wonders. The serpent hates the Father, he hates the Son, and he hates himself. So he destroys the father through mockery (portrayal of weak and incompetent father figures in pop culture), he destroys the son through addiction (porn, alcohol and drug addiction), he foments disregard and dishonor of the parents (You shall honor thy father and mother) and he raises up woman in defiance of man.
Marian worship and miracles are a deception, and the are evil because they go against the Father. Plain and simple.
I might have a splinter in my eye but I have heard the scriptures and have a good eye yet with which to read them.
Beautiful 😊
I'd love to see in the future you have a public dialogue with the perspectives or theology you're critiquing.
Excellent presentation. My personal view is that if I can ask a fellow sinner, perhaps a priest or a friend, to pray for me then I can also ask Mary for the same kind of support. Yet I could never, ever, use the extreme, almost chocking, words of the medieval prayers that you mention.
But there is a difference between asking someone who is ALIVE and someone who is DEAD
@@geordiewishart1683 so Saints are dead, in heaven?
You must know this person means those who have died in relation to this life. Yes believers are with God eternally but according to scripture we are forbidden to speak to the those who have passed from this life. Yes indeed we can ask our friends/loved ones to pray this sde of eternity but not once they have passed on.
@@jamesbishop3091You must know what the person means. They who have passed through death and although spiritually alive are physically dead. Scripture forbids any communication with those who have passed on.
As protestants, we sometimes act in a similar manner when we say "pray for me", but don't really seek God on our own behalf.
I don't recall ever asking for someone to pray for me by calling that person things like "most venerated above all" and telling them "you alone can placate Christ and grant me forgiveness."
Asking for support from a fellow Christian in your own prayers is not the same at all as praying TO a fellow Christian.
Right...do you ask that for from the dead? The scripture clearly encourage us to pray for one another. There is no where in the scripture that mentioned about the living asking the dead to pray for them. Or pray to the dead so they can bring our prays to Jesus!
So good. Going to read about Origen. Doing a basic distance uni course in Church History. Grew up in Edinburgh in 70s. Catholicism was very taboo. Have strong protestant understanding on scripture in most areas. I have a lot of questions on the Roman/Greek influence in general on Christianity. Thanks for this break down. Must be hard for Catholics to hear it. Humbly I have a lot to read and learn.
I think there is a lack of coherent and well thought out concerns from the protestant view on this topic, but you have done a great job. Thanks !
I've just got it through my mind the difference between worship and veneration. Idols are worshiped. Moses' bronze snake on a pole was venerated. After hearing the prayers to Mary, I now know why Hezekiah smashed that snake icon to pieces.
You make good points and I agree with most. I pray to the Father in Jesus' name.
However, while Catholics may make too much of Mary, Protestants seem to make too little of her. I can't ignore that she is the mother of Jesus/God. Nor can I ignore the amazing Marian apparitions at Guadalupe, Fatima and Lourdes.
These things lead me to believe she has a special status in Heaven. With that in mind, asking Mary to pray for me doesn't seem heretical.
i cannot comment on guadalupe or lourdes, but why do you believe the mary of fatima, was indeed actually mary the mother of jesus? how would you distinguish between a demonic apparition posing as a christian saint, or an actual saint?
@@mike_AD a demon wouldn’t call people to Jesus and repentance.
@@MNskins11 Oh? There's an incident mentioned in the Book of Acts that seems to imply otherwise: "Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, 'These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.' And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, 'I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.' And he came out that very hour." Acts 16:16-18 NKJV
The argument is weak.
Just cause Mary is mother of Jesus rhe divine Son doesn't mean she deserves our attention. All our attention should be focused on God alone.
Second Demons can show apparition as well.
For one Mary is dead, So seeing apparitions of Mary, Is basically necromancy. The Dead is Dead. I affirm Mary is in heaven of course.
But seeing are spirit in a vision is blatant necromancy.
Second No where in Scripture do u see any one especially in Acts of seeing visions of a dead person and interacting.
Test every Claim with Scripture.
I don't deny Visions exists. I affirm they work within the realm of Scripture
They’re asking a spiritual being not Mary herself
You are one balanced brother. I really enjoy your channel. What is your preaching translation you use?
Well done!
praying to the saints/Mary is one of the practices I find most disturbing
especially when praying to relics. On a visit to Rome once, I was hugely disturbed to find people praying to 'fingers', 'skulls', 'teeth' of saints. It felt very demonic to me.
John 14:6
King James Version
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
@@derekbates2513 yes
That and idol veneration
Interesting. I find the SBC baptists refusing to affirm the Nicean Creed pretty disturbing myself
Baptized and confirmed in the catholic church. Ultimately couldn't continue trying to ''play both sides'' on this topic and other theological problems fundamental to Roman Catholicism.
Being Acadian; I was raised to see Mary with 2 titles;
1. Co-Redemptrix that you can go to if you're not comfortable going to Jesus.
2. Blessed door to heaven.
You didn't cross any boundaries; your video is very accurate and respectful. Unfortunately; most catholics who take Marianism seriously will be offended precisely because you are so ''on the nose''. They are convinced that ''well of course we go to Mary because we can't get to get forgiveness without her!"
Glad to see God led you to to the truth brother!
It says a lot about one’s faith (or lack thereof) if they’re uncomfortable going to Jesus, our loving Savior and High Priest, in prayer.
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.”
Psalm 118:8 KJV
What is the specific reference to Origen's Commentary on Romans?
Hello Pastor Gavin, thanks for your great video.
Do you have any video related to the catholic and protestant view of salvation and justification (sola fide...) ?, or are you planning to do one related to that?
Thanks a lot! You know, that is on the docket, but it might be a while! Will move through my list of topics as rapidly as I can.
Check out a documentary called Protestantism's Big Justification Lie.
Great job! I've always wondered if the Greco-Roman practice of ancestor worship influenced this practice in Christendom at all. Many of the items Romans would carry to worship their ancestors very much resemble Saint medallions and the like.
It almost certainly did, we are all influenced by our culture in way we don’t even notice. The same was true about Greco-Roman early Christians, this is why you see rather bad things believed about women, slavery etc.
A very important factor, yes. Perhaps the more relevant background issue is the state, condition and power of the dead. The OT view is that we are dust, and to dust return when we die. When we die, God takes back his breath from our nostrils and we return to dust. We are like the grass of the field that sprouts up for a season, jd then the wind blows on it and it dries out and perishes or is cut down and thrown into the fire. All meet the same fate, all go to the same place. In the collective grave or underworld, the dead are cut off from the living, they do not know what is going on in the world above anymore. They do not know anything, in the land of oblivion. They have no power to help the living. Accordingly, there is no point asking them for help. That is the critical point for prayer. They can neither hear our prayers, nor answer our prayers, not make prayers for us. They are sleeping in the dust and do not wake up to hear our concerns. When we die, we go down to meet them, they greet us with the message, “you have become weak as we, you have become like us!” (Is. 14:10). We are reunited with our dead children, we rest with our fathers… forever.
Yet the dead still have some existence and function for the living. They live on hopefully in the children they have raised up before they died. Their descendants give them a good burial and after their flesh has rotted away they collect the bones and put them into the family bone box. If they leave no offspring their line dies out and their name is forgotten. Given enough generations, all men are forgotten by those who come afterwards, as pointed out in the book of Ecclesiastes.
Yet to God, their memory is never forgotten. He keeps a record of their deeds, good and evil, in his book. God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to him they are living, not dead. The seed of Abraham survives and he is the father of many nations. Yet this persistence does not make these dead ones conscious or having power to intervene to help the living. For this reason, there is still no praying to Abraham, Isaac or Jacob.
Jacob in particular is the seed of Abraham, the elect one, the chosen people. He lives on as Israel, the nation. The resurrection is defined as the “hope of Israel”. But the resurrection of Israel was taking place, and was to take place and be completed in a new form of Israel, the new man, the body of Christ, the church made up of people from every nation, tribe, people and tongue. In the resurrected Israel is the communion of saints. The dead of the past are members of this new living and immortal body along with the living saints. The dead saints give us light, they are fixed in heaven and shine as stars for us. They are not forgotten and they share our elevated heavenly status.
The saints, the dead saints, in particular the martyred saints, have a special place in the communion of saints, as honoured examples for us to remember and to copy.
All of this makes sense of why there is no point in praying to the dead saints but merit in remembering and respecting them. It is only later with platonic body soul dualism and the theory of the immortality of the soul that it makes sense to pray to the dead saints. In later Christian theory and practice this dualism was introduced, and prayer to the saints became a thing.
Very good video and very well timed. Many of my Catholic friends say the exact same thing about the saints that you addressed in this video and it is interesting to see how these church practices have changed, especially since Catholics often try to claim that everything they do has been done for thousands of years and was given by the spirit, forgetting that men can split the church and add things to it that aren't scriptural. As an Anglican, I value tradition as much as the next guy, but if tradition goes against the Bible, then the tradition is wrong.
I would say who put the Bible together? It was the apostolic tradition that brought you the Bible you have now. Not the other way around. A alot of it is in the Bible but those books were pulled out by the reformers.. Smh I'm not Roman catholic by the way I am orthodox. There is no winning an argument when you have the mindset scripture doesn't point it out.. The sinners prayer for example is not biblical its not in the Bible yet it is a tradition for some protestant faiths.. These arguments are just silly.
@@sinfulyetsaved You didn't listen. He said he respects tradition, quite explicitly. And he also clearly states that it's when a tradition is in conflict with the Bible that it must be rejected. You completely bypassed what he said.
@@Draezeth It doesn't matter if their traditions are found in the bible or not. They like them, and the argument that they've been entrenched in Christianity for hundreds of years is good enough. So is the new one he said, that I see a lot lately, which amounts to: "we gave you the bible, so shut up about it". It's not a valid argument, but it's supposed to pacify us somehow.
@@sinfulyetsaved Wouldn’t that boost his case? Because if it contradicts the Bible, it would also contradict the Apostolic tradition that put it together, which, by the way, we are not to add to, a warning not only echoed in Scripture, but also in the Church Fathers. So if something contradicts the Bible, it contradicts the Apostolic Faith in the Church Fathers that put it together and thus that thing should be shunned and abandoned.
@@samueljennings4809 The Bible does not contain all apostolic tradition. According to the canonized scripture the church is the authority. Not canonized scripture. Saint Paul wrote two short letters to the Thessalonians that are in the Bible. Saint Paul also taught in the church of Thessaloníki for an entire year. Do we have the transcripts of that entire year that Saint Paul taught in the Bible? No. But we do have tradition that has unfolded from these teachings in the spirit. Also keep in mind there was no Bible for the first 300 years of Christianity. What was the authority then?
Do you and Trent Horn/Matt Fradd/Reason and Theology crew have any upcoming debates/discussions on this topic?
Great video
I feel like those Marian prayers would be pretty fire reworded to Jesus, Himself.
Agree
Thank you for this video, like someone else said quite topical considering the conversations on Capturing Christianity. I would definitely appreciate if at some point you dove deeper into this and spent more time directly addressing points that Catholics make, and the general theological problems with this. Thanks!
Thanks, will try to address this more fully in the future!
Please DO make a video about something called the doctrine of friendship! I think friendship is incredibly undervalued in both Christian and secular circles. I’ve only ever heard one sermon about friendship, and I’m 29 years old and grew up in the church.
Ruth Whiteford's doctoral theses is on the topos of friendship in 1-2 Corinthians.
Prayers to Mary, such as those read in this video, are still very much in practice today.
The Marian veneration seems more entrenched than ever. She's now born sinless, is a co-redemptrix, and was assumed bodily (as of 1950 this was made official). The one that shocks me most is that the Catholic immaculate conception is not Jesus being born sinless, but apparently Mary also being born sinless. So apparently Mary has most if not all the attributes of Jesus for Catholics. They say she doesn't, but I can't see how she doesn't. Not being raised w/ these Marian beliefs and not being use to just accepting them, they are shocking.
Can confirm. As a former Catholic, I saw all kinds of stuff like this almost daily. Recently there has been a trend of consecrating oneself to Mary and St. Joseph, sometimes never even mentioning God.
@@movingamountain What brought you out of Catholicism? I see so many convinced Catholics in comments and some of them know to argue w/ scripture. There are a lot of protestants who become Catholic and many are pastors now. While I think Catholics are still our brethren, I can understand when the dogmas are all you know. I am confused by bible believers being able to accep the dogmas. Though for some, it does deepen their faith.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 it has been a long and difficult journey. I wrestled with a lot of things regarding Catholicism for years. Intellectually things wouldn't make sense and my conscience would convict me, but there was a deep fear of leaving the RCC. A few months ago I was at mass one morning and the Scripture reading was the contest between Elijah and the prophets of Baal. This one particular verse struck me, "And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word." (1 Kings 18:21) I had been sitting on the fence for a long time, and it was time to make a decision. I stopped going to mass and never turned back. So, it was a cumulative process that happened over many years and through many doubts. Once I left, I realized how many teachings I actually disagree with, but I think the thing that really pushed me over the edge was prayer to Saints and how excessive it was in practice. Catholic apologists will often say, "We don't pray to Saints. We only ask them to pray for us." That is not at all what happens in practice and many sanctioned prayers go far beyond that, as Gavin addresses in the video. I hope that answers your question! Feel free to ask anything else if you are curious.
@@movingamountain The one that gets me the most is the Mary worship. They call it veneration, and many Catholics do leave it there, but so many really do worship and treat her as divine.
So it must have been quite recent you hopped off the fence if you stopped going to Mass a few months ago. Do you still miss the reverence of the mass and the belief in true presence of the Eucharist? I guess most of my curiousity would be around RCC belief in the Eucharist and where you are now? Though whatever else you feel moved to share is great.
I've always been Christian, but do attend Mass. To cut things short, I really gave Catholic doctrines a fair shake, threw out all I'd heard and got it from Catholic sources. Some entrenched dogmas are worse than what we'd heard. Purgatory, treasury of merit, Marion dogmas, and Jesus as a continuing sacrifice, as well as infant baptism only taking care of original sin, making Jesus' atonement not really enough, since the rest of the effort is ours to be doled out by the church, had me convinced I could not become Catholic. Since I saw pastors converting to it, I thought there must be things I didn't know. I do still see Catholics as brethren. I think their veneration of the Host is lovely, even if I can't believe in transubstantiation. I gave it a strong try, praying that I did not want to miss more of Jesus if this "knowledge" from an ancient form of Christianity had more.
As a layman listening to and reading through some of the comments here the only question that kept popping into my head was "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?".
I find it difficult to get my head around why He would have changed His mind on this after being glorified. This same Christ taught us to pray directly to our Father and left the Holy Spirit as our helper who intercedes for us.
James writes about confession, praying for each other and that the prayers of a righteous man avails much. If I combine all of these Scriptures with some of the comments and practises read and listened to here I might just as well start praying to someone who at this moment is alive and well and walking the earth.
Pray for man pray to God, it's not that complicated.
that last paragraph is you getting it. The only difference is the Saints in heaven will hear our requests in a different format than the living saints on earth that we can walk up to and ask for prayers
@@MrPeach1 got proof of that? One of the reasons I struggle with this idea is the extreme assumption making of the ideology. Where are you getting "Saints in heaven will hear our requests in a different format than the living saints on earth" because all the evidence I have seen comes down to wishful thinking. Because of the practical nature of asking for prayers from living people (must be in same room, have written to them, or use of modern technology) there is a vast chasm of doubt I have for the idea that others in heaven that aren't God have "special abilities" that aren't God's abilities, but we don't know what those are or how they work and can only point to out of context scripture, but we know they exist so just do it. It just seems awfully confusing and vague and God isn't the author of confusion, but one of order.
@@alishavogel7926 biblically the phrase cloud of witnesses makes me think they are witnesses to our earthly goings on. How that is possible is God's mystery. But a great cloud of witnesses would witness you asking for prayers and since we know they are holy to be alive in heaven it stands to reason that they would love to pray for you.
@@MrPeach1 thanks for responding. However, I would gently push back. All that is inferred from Hebrews 12:1-2 is that there is a great number of witnesses which the verses are in reference to the realization of the promise of faith. Who they are, what they do, and their abilities are not given.
While personally, I believe that we will all one day have each others stories and triumphs in heaven known to those who came before us, I do not see in scripture where our lives are broadcast as if it were a film or where there is mutual interaction between those currently living on earth vs those who died saved. But for the reference of Angels, demonic spirits, possible accounts of Jesus (OT), necromancy, and visions, there aren't any other interactions from other entities between our physical world and the spiritual world.
So since this is such a big issue if you are in the wrong, I need more than just "It's a mystery of God." You have to be careful of dependence of "mysteries" least the possibility you get sucked into mysticism and occult practices.
Thank you for talking about these issues. You are so right. People are Protestant out of convenience, not out of conviction.
Conviction is nothing if it's not from the Holy Spirit. High conviction can easily be another way to praise ur efforts instead of God. Convenience is just a worthless as inconvenience. Believe on/in Christ.
That's a pretty broad brush.
I am a Christian, not a Catholic of another faith.
Thy way, O God, is in thy sanctuary, who is so great a God as our God?
{Psalm77:13}
...as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith God, that thou make all things according to *the pattern* shewed to thee in the mount.
{Hebrews 8:5}
The *sanctuary* [tabernacle] was a pattern of types and shadows of the heavenly temple, and Jesus Christ is the substance of those types and shadows.
He is the door to the sanctuary; Jesus is the door to the Kingdom of heaven.
He is the inner court surrounded by white linen; which is symbolic of being covered Christ prefect righteousness.
He is our passover sacrificed for us on burnt alter for sacrifice.
He is the laver for washing; symbolic of the rebirth, being born again of the Spirit.
He is the table of Showbread; the two stacks of loves of bread are symbolic of the word of God (the bread of life) in two testaments / witnesses, also the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles.
He is the Lampstand; the oil being symbolic of his Spirit; the Lampstand symbolic of his light unto the world.
He is our Altar of incense; making intercession for his saints.
He is our Mercy seat covering the Ark of the covenant; Jesus is both our advocate standing for his saints with the Father and He is our judge in judment.
Jesus Christ caused the sacrifices and their oblations to cease, (Dan 9:27) by his one perfect sacrifice.
In contrast to the time of the Gentiles, wherefore the sanctuary of God is trodden under foot for forty and two months.
How so?
This church who calls herself the mother church, claims to be *the door* to salvation.
And the white linen surrounding the inner court is the righteousness of Mary and the saints of the Roman church.
She claims that Christ sacrifice and Atonement for sin was not sufficient, for she instituted seven (works) sacraments.
She through infant baptism makes a mockery of the rebirth of the new man.
Her Catechism thinks to replace the inspired word of God.
Her prayers to dead saints and to Mary, thinks to replace Christ work of intercession at the altar of incense.
Hers is a false spirit which thinks to cover the light of truth.
This beast and her king think to change times and laws of God.
And goeth into perdition.
Thank you for your thoughtful discussion on this strongly held catholic practice. If/since I can go DIRECTLY to the throne of God to receive all His benefits, WHY would I appeal to anotber source for anything?? Why would Jesus in Matthew 11 invite us to come to Him in our every difficulty for help, rest, peace????
I'm a sbc protestant but came from a staunch Catholic background. Thank God for his Word!
On your opening comment about modernity’s loss of deep and intimate friendship outside romantic love is something I very much agree with !! Glad to be ecumenical about that !
Thanks Todd! Really appreciate you highlighting that point of common ground.
Gavin, you missed one very important piece of context: The medieval (and ancient) use of extremely deferential language as a matter of course. Simply put, in ancient and medieval times - and even today in Orthodoxy - we sometimes say things that we don't actually mean literally in our prayers, and never did mean literally. "I have no one else to turn to but you", for example, does not literally mean "no one else will listen to me, including God". It actually simply means "I beg you to help me". Or addressing someone by extreme-sounding titles like "mother of mercy, mother of grace, hope of all the forsaken, comforter of all the despairing, etc etc"? That just means "I respect you a lot".
It's a cultural thing, at least in the Christian East (but probably also in the medieval Christian West as well). Heaping extreme praise on someone was simply the polite thing to do if you were going to ask them for help. For a secular example, just think of letters that end with "your humble servant", for instance. This was a common phrase including when the person writing was absolutely not a servant of the other in any sense, not even metaphorically. Even today, if you read official letters written by one Orthodox bishop to another, they always call each other things like "the blessed and most pious and God-loving Bishop X", and sign off with phrases like "please consider the appeal of my unworthiness".
This is simply how people used to talk, at least when making a formal request.
Papists do worship Mary. No question about it:
"My Queen and my Mother, *I give myself entirely to you;* and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, *my whole being without reserve.* Wherefore, good Mother, as *I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession.* Amen."
*Orthodox Compline prayer to Mary:*
_On the terrible day of judgment, deliver me from eternal punishment and make me an heir of your Son's glory_
Thank you for this. As Gavin was reading these prayers, I kept thinking I wished I had more context. It's kind of like reading the bible - there are lots of instances where what it means in today's parlance is not what it meant to the ancients.
Great video. It's nice to hear a charitable critique.
How would you respond when Catholics use James 5:16, "The fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much" as justification for praying to the saints?
One would assume the fervant prayer of the ritcheous man is a lving ritcheous man, praying to God. Unless you bring a living man- praying to saints in the glory to the text- it isn't there. It doesn;t say for example; "The fervant prayer of a ritcheous man to the saints, avails much." I have no doubts the saints in heaven pray for us, and we can certaily pray with them; but it's not approprait for us to pray /to/ them asking for merit or something.
I would agree that asking why this issue appears in the 3rd century is valuable. However, more and more Catholic apologists are arguing that Scripture does contain examples of prayers to the saints. I'd like to hear Gavin's comments on the Biblical passages, and not as much on history. I'd like to hear exegesis on the many relevant passages!
Gavin, what is your opinion of the reformed group so-called 'Presbyterians'?
God bless!
On a hill far away, stood an old rugged Cross
The emblem of suff'ring and shame
And I love that old Cross where the dearest and best
For a world of lost sinners was slain
So I'll cherish the old rugged Cross
Till my trophies at last I lay down
I will cling to the old rugged Cross
And exchange it some day for a crown
Oh, that old rugged Cross so despised by the world
Has a wondrous attraction for me
For the dear Lamb of God, left his Glory above
To bear it to dark Calvary
So I'll cherish the old rugged Cross
Till my trophies at last I lay down
I will cling to the old rugged Cross
And exchange it some day for a crown
In the old rugged Cross, stain'd with blood so divine
A wondrous beauty I see
For the dear Lamb of God, left his Glory above
To pardon and sanctify me
So I'll cherish the old rugged Cross
Till my trophies at last I lay down
I will cling to the old rugged Cross
And exchange it some day for a crown
To the old rugged Cross, I will ever be true
Its shame and reproach gladly bear
Then He'll call me some day to my home far away
Where his glory forever I'll share
So I'll cherish the old rugged Cross
Till my trophies at last I lay down
I will cling to the old rugged Cross
And exchange it some day for a crown.
Amen!
Amen
I love this hymn.
Glory to Jesus!
Hello brother. Thank you for the detailed video.
Ex protestant here and this topic was a key initial concern/confusion I had when I became Greek Orthodox. But I was told simply that we 'ask' the saints to help us just as we ask saints/Christians who are still alive on earth to pray for us. The Apostolic teaching passed down is that the saints in heaven are totally aware of what is going on in our lives (for instance in the gospel where Moses and Elijah, who were dead, appeared to Christ on Mount Tabor and spoke about the pending crucifixion, showing they were aware of earthly matters). The idea is that the saints in heaven have ample time on their hands! And they see more than we do, and so asking for their prayers and help is highly effective.
Of course there is no pressure or demand on anyone to ask the saints in heaven to help, but their 'availability' is just another gift from God, Who is rich in mercy and pours a multitude of blessings and gifts on us.
With regards to the mother of God, we love her dearly, but we don't go too far and worship her, this would be abhorrent. She is seen as the new Eve. The first woman said no to God, Mary said yes and through that yes, we have Christ our Saviour Who has reversed the curse of the fall. So Mary is also seen as the first Christian.
Again she helps whenever we ask. She helped with Christ's first miracle (water turned to wine). He wasn't planning on performing a miracle yet, saying His time hadn't yet come, yet she humbly told others to simply do whatever He said to do. The wonderful thing in this miracle isn't just the physical change of water, but that Christ so loves human beings made in His image, He sometimes tweaks plans when we ask. And we see that in this miracle.
The Church is a living thing and one can't always point to a text and say 'there it is'. It is a living Body of Christ.
It is also worth remembering that when trying to look for Bible verses to explain or justify things, that in the Bible itself we read Apsotle John saying that Christ did many more things that couldn't be written down, as the world couldn't contain the number of books that would be written. We also see the apostle Paul saying for us to stand fast to that which we are taught whether by word or the Epistle. This is becayse he would spend months in one place, teaching and instructing the Christians there every day, yet we only have say one Epistle written. The Christians held fast to the faith once passed down by the Apostles, most of which was oral teaching. So this is why one can't always assume the lack of scritpural text means that the witness and practice of the Church for 2000 years is to be discarded. The official Canon of Scripture was not collated until 735 AD. Had we lived in those earliest centuries, we would not have Bible studies etc. We would have the faith once passed down by the Apostles and the Nicene creed memorised by heart to protect us from the numerous heresies circulating at that time.
Ultimately, you will know them by their fruits and orthodoxy has stood unchanged for 20 centuries.
With love from the UK, Wales.
Not just the first Christian, but the model Christian.
God bless
2:22 I am this far into the video and you mentioned anselm on friendship. I’ve been really delving into friendship lately, theologically and mentally and such, and recently read a book called Spiritual Friendship by Wesley Hill. I’d be curious as to your thoughts, and perhaps more resources on the topic
These are very good concerns.
Earlier this year, I read Aquinas' arguments in favor of praying to the saints, but I wasn't convinced that 1) the dead saints are aware of our prayers, or that 2) they would be cognizant of all simultaneous prayers to them and the content of those prayers.
While Aquinas views the saints' presence with God as magnifying and exalting them in some sense (if I remember correctly), I do have to wonder - if 10,000 people around the world are simultaneously praying to Mary, is she able to intervene for each of them? Or is each person vying for her attention with the hope that maybe she will pick them out to listen to this time? Surely the saints are not omniscient now in the presence of God.
But like Origen cautions, how could we know, unless God reveals it to us? Maybe the Roman Catholic Church would say God has revealed it to the Church, but... I'm rather hesistant.
Good thoughts, Joel. Yes, one of the difficulties is, how can we know if God has not revealed this to us?
We cannot understand such things anymore than Job could understand his situation. The disciples struggled to first recognise the risen Christ walking beside them. We often don't see the obvious as we are but mere sinners and unworthy servants.
The answer is to trust the Church fathers who themselves have held on to the Apostolic teachings on such things. These are the Fathers who collated the entire New Testament for us. No one can claim to believe in the Bible and not believe the fathers who put it together.
We believe and trust that the fathers were fully guided by the Holy Spirit in the matter of the Bible, so too must we trust their teachings on all other matters.
The alternative is to devise our own opinions, to follow our own perceived intelligence and logic and to put ourselves above those who lead Holy lives and were mostly martyrs for Christ.
Christ promised to guide His Chruch in all Truth and this He has done.
Many things are mysteries and we walk by faith not by sight.
Elizabeth, Greek Orthodox, UK
Joel I don't think you truly comprehended what Aquinas was saying. Let me paraphrase it as best I can in as plain of english as I can: Through the Beatific Vision (the divine intimacy God has granted them into his inner life), they are not "omniscient" but God grants them to see and hear through HIS omniscience.
@@toddvoss52 Well, I was trying to go off memory, but now that you say that, that sounds familiar. So yes, I think I did understand, just misremembered the details.
I can see why that might be an attractive idea, but is it true? And what other knowledge do they have access to through God's omniscience? Can they also "declare the end from the beginning" now (in the sense of report, not decree)? Does this cause them to become functionally omniscient?
@@toddvoss52 That sounds like drinking from a fire hydrant to the power of infinity. But if I were to grant for the sake of argument such a construct, that only takes care of 1 out of 3 stages to the problem, namely that of perception. Now we still have to deal with stage 2: how the saints can interpret / understand all the millions of requests addressed to them simultaneously, and stage 3: how can the saints answer each individual request instantaneously. Once you realize that each of these steps requires divine intervention to make up for creaturely shortcomings, you realize that either the creaturely involvement is entirely obsolete since God Himself is the one who processes these prayers from start to finish (if they are processed at all) which contradicts the purpose of the practice of praying to the saints, or praying to the saints presupposes that the saints themselves possess these divine qualities.
I appreciate that Dr. Ortlund didn't strawman the Catholic position. As a Catholic, I myself have struggled with some of these practices / prayers, because they can seem a little excessive. But I've also come to realize that this isn't one of those things where the biblical "evidence" is what changes opinion... it's actually more the mystical evidence that changed my mind more. Which is weird, considering that I'm naturally very skeptical about that kind of stuff normally!
Thanks for the comment, and glad it didn't come across as attacking a strawman!
That's an enigmatic comment. I can understand how biblical evidence wouldn't sway a Catholic as much, since they seem to place higher importance on tradition. How did mystical evidence sway you more, what kind, and are you still Catholic? I hope I didn't bombard you w/ questions, but your comment intrigued me.
its not a strawman, the actual practice is heinous and the doctrine does not match the practice
@@saintejeannedarc9460 Mystical evidence ? I’d venture a guess. Possibly it means seeing some response either in events or an interior state after praying for intercession from a Saint. Or it could mean something that has close to zero probability of happening actually comes to pass.
A couple responses as an Orthodox Christian -
1. I wouldn't try to whitewash anything of this. In fact, I think you're right that the prayers to Mary portray God as a bit more distant and difficult to reach, but this is a major role of the saints, to act as a bridge for those that are (or rather feel as if they are) far away from God. Asking for intercession is what you might do if you are far from God and shame or fear keeps you from asking God directly. It's not about where God is (He's always there), but where you are. And many people find their way back to God by first asking the saints for help because the saints are human beings who feel more accessible. This idea of "I can reach out to you alone" fits into this model as well, as if we are so far, so broken, so unable to bring ourselves to speak to God directly, that we need her to help us bridge that gap. It doesn't mean that God is actually unreachable or that Mary is actually the only one we can reach out to, but it's an expression of the human sense of distance from their Creator. If this is a matter of real world application, then what could be more real world than that feeling?
2. There's really no evidence that this was adopted from paganism any more than the story of Christ's resurrection was adopted from Horus. We can also read prayer to saints into that quote you offered from Polycarp (how can one be a companion or a disciple of someone they can't even speak to?). Either way, how we view prayer to the saints, whether we support it or oppose it, is a post-hoc interpretation no matter how you slice it. And the problem with any claim that the church was corrupted as early as the third century is that most of the canon and most of the dogma we hold today are rooted in the great theologians of those time periods. If you're going to question the reliability of the teaching back then, you basically have to question the entire Christian religion, including basic things like the Trinity and the NT canon. If those Christians were compromised, you really have no reason to trust anything they produced even a couple generations after the apostles and no way of really knowing that what was preserved from the time of the apostles is representative of their actual teachings. But I think we CAN trust them because they were actively dealing with the rise of Gnosticism and Arianism and false prophets, a lot of controversy and heresies were being resisted, they took doctrine very seriously, they were so devoted to the faith that they were willing to die for it (not a casual interest), and if the winners in those controversies didn't hold the right views then we have no reason to think anything in Christianity is correct today.
Thanks for engaging! On your first point, the idea of the saints function as "bridges" to God is what I'm suggesting is contrary to the gospel's affirmation of our direct access to the throne of grace, as articulated in passages like Heb. 4:14-16. I think there are other ways of affirming our inadequacy and the role of other Christians without undermining this precious truth. God wants us to come directly to him, knowing we are fully forgiven and loved by him as our father. The priestly work of Christ has removed every barrier. The veil is torn. This is a glorious aspect of the gospel and I am concerned about any theology that obscures it. On your second point, the idea of accretions in the church is not all or nothing. I nowhere stated the entire church was corrupted by the 3rd century. I've often protested that caricature. But there can be some bad developments in the church without the entire church becoming corrupt. And the fact is that praying to the saints was simply not an early practice, so far as I can see. Hope this helps clarify how I would look at things; feel free to respond!
Shrinking back in fear of coming to God can be dangerous.
Hebrews 4:16
Let us therefore come BOLDLY to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
the Greek word for boldly is "parrésia" which means,
Freedom of speech, confidence
freedom, openness, especially in speech; boldness, confidence.
Approaching God in full assurance of faith, with full expectation is not offensive to God, but required.
Hebrews 10:37-39
“For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith; BUT IF ANYONE DRAWS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.” But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Read the story of the blind man when Jesus was coming out of Jericho. The blind man kept calling to Jesus. Jesus passed him by, but he wouldn't stop. People kept telling him to be quiet, but he wouldn't stop till Jesus answered him. Mark 8:46-52, and Luke 18:35-43. Take care
@@TruthUnites
Sorry for my delayed reply, I had to give it some thought.
The idea of "accretions in the Church is not all or nothing" is itself a uniquely Protestant view. But from the standpoint of classical Christians, it is an all or nothing proposition. We understand that a single failure in doctrine spoils all of it, from the teaching of the faith to the practice of the faith, because it is all interconnected as a single whole. There are no standalone doctrines or practices, they intertwine with all others. This is why something as abstract as the monophysite heresy (even to this day difficult to define) was taken so seriously in its time. How you see one part of the church and how you practice will affect every other part, and a small variation is like a cancer that kills the whole body.
As a former Protestant myself, I understand that Protestants are conditioned to accept large variations between them because if they did not - and partly due to their soteriological constraints - they would be forced to make some shocking claims about the souls of people very similar to them. But the truth is that there is no "fundamental" or "basic" form of Christianity, there is only Christianity that is full and whole and complete in every teaching and every practice. Opposed to that can only be Christianity that is weakened, ill, and unable to last. Granted, insofar as you partake in the whole (scripture, prayer, etc), you will benefit, but there is only one true Church and those that are "partially wrong" must also be counted as "entirely wrong" because the doctrines and practices where they fail will always bleed over into the doctrines and practices where they do not. This is why "heresy" as a concept mattered for 1500 years and why, at least in Protestant circles, the word is never uttered today.
This is why the Protestant traditions, with each passing generation, deteriorate into less of their former self, becoming increasingly indistinguishable from their surrounding cultural influences. What began as a relatively small distinction from the Roman Church has grown into an all-encompassing transformation into something that would be totally unrecognizable to early Christians. One tiny accretion or two, and a few centuries later you have "churches" with no lasting beauty or prayerfulness, primarily led by marketing professionals, where death is never mentioned but the pastor has a book deal and band has a platinum record.
For all of the "risk" associated with traditional Christians holding on to praying to the saints, for 2000 years it has never corrupted our practice or doctrine. We do not worship them, we do not teach the worship of them, and we are still clear that God is God, not the saints. Certainly we have people who are poorly catechized and don't understand their own faith, but this happens with all mysteries the Church holds in tension and in all churches of all types. Our failures as people are no excuse for changing the teaching or practice of the Church, only to catechize better and be more faithful.
@@jayrey1486 _and why, at least in Protestant circles, the word is never uttered today_
What? This simply isn't even true dude.
I think your outlook is very narrow, either to your own personal experience or what you see on TV. For whatever reason, mega pastors who teach literal heresy like Joel Osteen and TD Jakes are often seen as the face of Protestantism when these guys couldn't be further from historical Protestantism if they tried. They're manifestly outside the church and heretics.
_We do not worship them_
Did you hear some of the prayers addressed to Mary that co-opt language reserved to God alone? I find it interesting that you make an exception for the poorly catechized in the Orthodox tradition but fail to make that same distinction for all of Protestantism. The main difference between Protestantism and EO-RC connection, is an emphasis on an individual's personal connection to God through faith in Christ alone, that's why we Protestants are not so quick to claim that anyone who isn't part of our churches is damned and going to hell, I don't see this same charity extended from EOs and RCs.
You are a gift to the church Dr Orlund