How to Install Upper Control Arm Mounts on you race car and get them right!
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- Опубліковано 5 бер 2021
- Dirt Race Life is showing how to on determining the correct location of the upper mounts. We determine what caster and camber settings we want and then how to create a fixturing process for placing the mounts in that location. The focus of this video is on the camber and caster for our street stock build. The hunt for step by step instructions and how to on building a race car are over. This is the tech you need to build a car that will take you to the front.
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Man these videos are invaluable for learning. Maybe you can set up a patreon account for those of us following this build who want to support the channel and shop.
Garry, I'm glad they are hitting the mark. I struggled to find this stuff myself and that my motivation for making the vids.
Right now I'm focused on getting the first ten videos up on this channel and I think Patreon is great but I'm not ready for that yet. Gotta stay focused on making videos right now :)
@@DIRTRACELIFE I know its a lot of work to make but I would buy a DVD set of all these videos. You do a great job of explaining without wasting time. I'd say it's certainly hitting the mark
Thanks Garry, I'm enjoying the process as well. We are doing the Anti-Dive one now but be warned we have to pull off this car and get the Camaro ready to race. The work on it will be a separate playlist but I'm going to work my very best to make it valuable as well.
30" centered off center line taking in consideration what side you will mount the upper. Was what we used making snouts for late models and cup in the parameter days
Good feedback Curtis and I very much appreciate the info for comparison 👍
Yes!! Thanks for the content! Planning to get a hobby stock soon but will be my first car. Lots to learn! Subbed!
Thanks Ryan.
Love the videos. I’ve learned a lot from watching you. Thank you!
Thanks Darold, It means alot getting this feedback and sure helps motivate me in pushing to get more of these out there. I appreciate you watching.
Thank you for sharing your experience on building.i really want to build a proper dirt car now .Midlife crisis may get back into racing it's been about 10 years
Thank Bill and thanks for watching.
Another great video!
Thanks Jordan
You’re right about the higher amounts of caster. That’s what I use and why , because of the tighter turns at my track. I just used a quicker ratio steering box with the power steering. It moves 120 lbs to the LR when counter steering to the right. Making it very difficult to spin out and gives drive off. With a split of 6 degrees and 12 on RF on a camaro chassis.
Thanks for the detail Tommy. Good stuff.
@@DIRTRACELIFE huh maybe I otta try that.
Damn 6 degrees and 12 lol
The Nova sure is loose
All our cars back in the day (gm metric) used to have bite built into the chassis (tie car down to floor, jack up frame in specific areas and build the cage). Couldn't use weight or spring cups or weight jacks.
Our stuff rolled through the turn pretty well but with new rules think there's a better more modern way.
I really enjoy watching your videos. Once you get through with this build id really enjoy a set up video on your Camaro.
Thank you Rod. We are racing the camaro this season but I have three planned videos for her. Building the new front bumper and nose install. Skinning the sides and apply the wrap. And I have an anti-dive change to make on the front. I can make sure to get specific with the setup on her when I tear down the right front and make the anti-dive change.
Thanks for taking us on this trip with you Jason. I'm sure that you could build your new car a lot faster without teaching us.
The further I get into doing this build and the videos the more I am enjoying it. It's slow but part of that is the day job as well. I am getting faster at doing the video editing though! Thanks for watching.
Awesome videos.
Thank you, I appreciate you letting me know they are hitting the spot.
Love this video. You break it down to simple steps what to many is bewildering.
I have 1977 Camaro street stock from the Portland speedway days. 2 barrel carbs, stock intakes and exhaust, no front bars ahead of the firewall, non adjustable weight jacks.
Now, 20 years later the only classes I can run my car in 'locally' (nearest track is 52 miles away) is Street Stock at River City Speedway and Willamette Speedway, then there's the American Classics at Sunset Speedway.
Camaro's can't run the IMCA SS class because they consider it a sports car/ HA.
Anyway, with the new rules, I can run headers, aluminum intake, 4 barrel carb, AND after market upper control arms.
So this is huge info, but Now I find I need to spend more money on parts, Perfect, LOL
I'm going to check out your roll center vid, which if I recall is also called bump steer. How much does the caster camber change during the movement of the A arms from each maximum of motion?
Good stuff.
.
Don't worry about the caster change, it does decrease in bump but you won't be able to change it and its not a show stopping thing to fret over. On the camber though, if you can go longer on the upper LF and shorter on the RF then it will have a significant improvement.
Since the shock is stock location you should be able to easily fit a 8" to 8.5" upper on the RF. I can tell you from experience that with setting the lower A arms level and using a +1 taller upper ball joint in an 8.5" upper arm on the RF will get you roughly 1.5 degrees camber gain during compression. a 8 may get you more but can have issues with staic number and get too extreme a couple different ways. I would start with an 8.5. On the LF, I would try a 10.5" and also use the +1" ball joint. You will get some good positive camber that is definitely needed and you will get some + camber gain in initial drop. But the gain will stop after about the first inch of extension. Thats ok, those stock upper mounts are too high to get really good camber curves but it will still be very very good compared to a stock upper.
I hope this helps and keep in mind this is just what I have experienced personally. Every car and driver is always a bit different so do your own thing and not just copying me or someone else praying it kinda works while not having a clue why. I guarantee you these parts are better than stock but are not the exact best for your car. Trial and error bud on the fine tuning 😉
@@DIRTRACELIFE Thanks for the info! I checked with Speedway Motors and the aftermarket upper control arms with the 1 inch longer ball joints run about $68 each side but you have to ream the stock spindles to fit the new ball joints. Very do-able. Last I checked I have about 4.5 degrees camber on the RF and about 2 degrees negative camber on the LF with stock control arms. Close but I would like to make it better. Huge help
Thanks again!
great video , wish you could do a video with a back story ? who you are and your start to now in your race car involvement
Can do, I could round up photos from the past and do some type history video and have the photos cropped in as a way to make it more interesting. I was a one man show racing by myself in my 20's and didn't take many photos though. 100% self taught, 1st generation racer and I think it could make for an interesting tail but it may be a few months before I can get it done. Thanks for the idea
@@DIRTRACELIFE yeah that would be awesome. I’m just starting out to I bought a street stalk last year and been just winging it . There’s a lot more to it than go fast turn left hahaha
Nice job. Close up shots would be great
Thanks Eddie, yes, sometimes I forgot to pause and get a good closeup when needed. Its a learning process but I'm getting better!
I’m just going to go through and watch all your videos since I learn from everyone lol have you made one explaining bump steer yet?
Not yet. I need to get to bolting in the sector and do the video on determining which center link and how to set the height to create correct bumpsteer geometry. Its definitely still a few videos away. Sorry, wish I could make them faster.
@@DIRTRACELIFE good deal I was just making sure I didn’t Miss because I always hear ppl talking about it. Are you able to get those caster Camber numbers on your factory stock? I know it’s a little different for every driver but I don’t even know where to set mine to start lol 😅
Purdy work I never seen anything like this your lucky to see an oil change on another channel and they change the container so you don’t know what oil they use just terrible of them
Thanks, I appreciate the feedback about showing all the detail. I hope it helps encourage others to do the same.
I'm really enjoying this series , but I do have a question . What made you decide to use a full size chassis over metric chassis.
It was several factors I think all coming together. I have a very good understanding of the geometry on these cars, I think there is a misconception that these cars are much heavier no matter what, i think i can build a 112" car that has a strategic advantage over the 108" metric cars in the dry slick, i want to show you can make anything perform with the right enginuity, and the car was a gift from a friend so there's that too!
@@DIRTRACELIFE any thoughts on this vs a 68-72 Chevelle?
Hey Jason, I just found Your channel.
I am following along on this build.
I find Your attention to detail very refreshing, and appreciate your sharing.
Looking forward to the completion of the build, and hope You take Us to the track to see how it works on the dirt.
On that note,,, where do You plan to race this car?
Thanks again for being an open book, and sharing Your journey.
Thanks Charles, I typically race at 7 tracks out from my location in West TN going to a different one week to week plus a few more I make it to once a year. In Arkansas: Crowleys Ridge, Riverside International, and Old #1. In Tennessee: Camden speedway, Clayhill Motorsports, and Tennessee National Raceway. In Missouri Poplar Bluff Motorsports. In Mississippi I make it at least once a season to Corinth and in Alabama I visit North Alabama Speedway and the Ice bowl at Talladega.
Yes, I am taking footage at the track as well. We will be first showing some from our Camaro which we are now getting ready for the season. I'm going to use the Camaro trips to work out the kinks and learn how to manage getting good film while also competing.
The coil build will progress slowly throughout this season but I am going to video everything :)
@@DIRTRACELIFE thanks for the reply Jason.
I drive truck over the road for a company out of Memphis Tn.
I would love to catch You at Riverside sometime.
Would love a heads up when Your heading to Riverside.
I’m originally from Iowa, and raced IMCA stock cars in the early 90s
I would be very willing to get dirty helping in the pits. It’s been a while.
Thanks Charles, will do
I run a pinto. Early in the night with moisture car handles great. I'm needing to run like 3in of rear stagger to get the car to turn mid corner on throttle dry slick. It gets in and rotates nice but pushes middle of corner. Could I possibly be running to much caster split? My cross is 49% my rear is 51%
Caster split can vary quite a bit but with relatively small impact on the setup but . .
how much caster overall . . . Now that my friend could have a huge affect. Measure your caster and if it not present or very small consider getting up toward 4 degrees on the left and 6 degrees on the right as a starting point.
Are you sure you are not running too much left rear bite, too strong a left rear spring, or too weak a right rear spring? You have to try to look at the whole picture and not make assumptions. It might seem great when there is moisture because you are pitching the car and skating the turn and this might seem like its good because when there is moisture it will work.... but its junk when the track slicks off because it just way too much left rear traction over powering the front end. Just be open minded about what could really be happening as you study the problem.
To much LF camber can also cause a push from center off…
Where do you set your lower control arms while doing all of this. Do you set them level or could you explain that?
Hey Kyle, thanks for asking. Yes, I set them level. Its in the previous video. I tried to make them like a follow through step by step in the playlist. ua-cam.com/video/RLouvzElQXk/v-deo.html
@@DIRTRACELIFE I will watch that video and if I still have questions I will ask. Thanks!
I got question for you, why not just measure those holes distance between on the car body to identify those angle, then you got adjustable upper control arm to eliminated the error that could have in future?
I am going to assume you are talking about the holes that are from the manufacturer int he frame. If that the holes you are referring to, you can't use them because they are not the same frame to frame or side to side. Like seriously they can be a 1/4 or 1/2 inch different side to side.
@@DIRTRACELIFE omg, that was shocked me if this really. Which brand have that big different side to side, I was tired to use ruler and hunter alignment machine to measure that distance between front and rear, model 3 performance likes not have that kind of issue, but you are really design the whole new race car, I respect that.
There is a large difference between how accurate locations are on modern cars compared to the old frames I work on from the 1970's. I would expect that anything built after the mid 1990's is much more accurate regarding hole locations.
Looking for someone with help on setting up mid 70,s chevelle street stock have a pr
Looking for someone with help I have a mid 70,s chevelle street stock the person who built it can't figure the problem out have a bad push middle out tried everything .
Bruce, generally speaking middle out is making me assume this is a condition that is happening when you pick up the throttle. That is in turn is leading me to believe that you are for some reason getting significantly more bite on your left rear than on you right rear far earlier than you want and in higher amounts than wanted.
That's general assumptions I am making but there can be MANY causes. First, make sure the car enters correctly. If the car immediately rotates on brake application to the point you have to take care not to spin the car you may simply have too much LR bite in the car to start with. LR bite turns a car in during deceleration and out during acceleration. So first look at your entry and keep in mind it could be other issues causing entry issues besides LR bite. If you have you entry right and believe the bite is not excessive then next is trying to figure out why you are loading up you LR instantly on throttle application. This could lead you to a shock issue. Assuming there are no binds, blown shocks, or issues, look at the rates. You could be causing the issue yourself by using a hold up LR with no rebound in a way that lets the LR come in far to fast. It could be spring related. Make sure you don't have a bolt coming out of one of your control arms. A control arm jerking forward under acceleration will do this.
These are just some thoughts on areas to look at and I hope it's helpful. I appreciate you watching the channel and hope you sort it out.
Where is your ride height? Especially where is it in relation to your suspension travel? Is there a general rule?
I ask because I’m working on a 68 El Camino and lower control arms are nowhere near level. In fact to get the LCA level I’m at 5 1/2” of comprehension,out of 7” of total travel.
Mike, that doesn't sound right. If you level your lca you should still have a good range of travel. Level means the center of the lower ball joint is the same height as the center of the lca bolt going through the the front cross over.
Yes I know, but Chevelle El Camino is way different than say a Camaro or Monte.
The lower control arms have a huge amount of downward curve from the pivot point.
So back to my original question, ideally where should ride height be in relation to total travel ?
This is for the street.
Regardless of shape, the geometry pivot points of inner bolt and ball joint being level is always my baseline on any car. The rideheight from the ground can be drastically different based on spindle height offset and tire diameter. I just don't know how to help you further Mike. I wish I had a better answer but I don't.
I think if you looked under Chevelle you would understand . Even though the LCAs swoop way down the spring pockets as seen from underneath are level at normal ride height. My Elco has had the engine out for so long it’s hard to tell how it should be. I am editing my most recent UA-cam video,out soon.
I could send you a picture. If I had an email I could send it to.
U can get messed up with what looks good on paper dont work on track? Also, 2 many times it works on his car? Not on mine??
Good points Steve. Every driver and every car is different. I've seen some wild stuff work for some but was a disaster for others. Thanks for the thoughts and watching our videos.
do us all a favor and get a head set microphone because the acoustics in your shop are bad, especially when you are constantly moving around. thanks
Its a steep learning curve to figure out how to get everything right on these videos and your right. On those first few I recorded, I didn't have the lighting right and didn't yet know how to get my voice volume and mic where it was right. They did get better and I am still learning as I go.
It’s 25 degrees not 20
I have learned 20 but perhaps 25 works and is correct in some applications. I think the main thing would be to document and repeat the measurement process the same way every time.
Dave, I appreciate the feedback.
It depends on the gauge you have. Most modern caster/camber gauges are 20… some older gauges called for 25. You need to read the instructions with your gauge to determine proper amount of degrees while checking caster.