Why Tire Stagger is so important in Racing (And how to measure it)
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- In this video we are tackling a confusing and difficult subject, Tire Stagger. I explain how to measure tire stagger, how Tire Stagger works, and how to determine how much you need. More importantly I explain how Tire Stagger affects the scale numbers, cross weight, and left rear bite in your street stock. This is a very grey area with many having different opinions and I realize that some will have a VERY different opinion than me. I put this video together to be helpful and am aware I don't have all the answers or a perfect way to teach this aspect but it's critical information that needs more information shared about.
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Very informative, I have been racing on and off for 40 years and I still get a little nuggets of information from almost every video you do, even the ones I don't feel like I learn anything new a lot of times you give me a different aspect to look at
But I watch every video intently. I am mostly amazed at your ability to deliver what it is that you're trying to say
Thank you Jeff, I really appreciate the words of encouragement.
O and thanks for the videos . With what you’ve taught me just in a few videos has helped me set up my car a lot better I climbed from 17th to 10th in a 20 lap main green to checker race with no cautions and I never made contact with another car . Keep the videos coming it has put more faith into my set up and I have had more confidence on the track
Man thats awesome, this is the exact reason I am sharing in these videos. Keep going till you get those checkers!
Another killer video!
as a new driver these videos are extremely helpful. thank you
Appreciate you watching the channel Justin, and glad you are finding them helpful.
I personally like about a half inch in the rear of my stuff. But like you said.... there’s different things with different setups that make these things vary. I run a lot of LR but also run different offset wheels from most because of a different “theory” on wheel offsets and what they do 🤣 there’s just so many ways to be fast these days man but a very informative video. People just need to realize they’re still going to have to learn all of this by trial and error with their stuff. You’re just helping them understand it a lot better!
Exactly, good way to describe how it can vary drastically car to car yet still be a good setup.
Thanks for adding this.
Thanks for the advice, my driver has been watching your videos. It helps a ton!
Glad its helpful and thank you for watching.
Awesome information thanks for the videos
Appreciate you watching our episodes
Well done, your explanation of what happens when when you change stagger is very informative, FWIW, my experience was to use as little stagger as possible until you ran out of options setting the car up, for sure a camera is a great benefit toward the proper setup.
Back in the 70's video equipment was expensive and rather large, these facts however were partially overcome (the expense anyway) by going to the community college and suggesting wiring the car up with cameras to help students become better acquainted to using video for diagnostic purposes in a dynamic application. What a revelation it was to see just what was happening during a lap, one of the eye opening events was just how much tire is actually on the track at a given time, it was very useful to getting a simple thing like tire pressure set right, way too many people run tires too soft, the camera was very telling when compared to lap times.
I learned about the low air pressure a little late in the game myself, wish I had understood it earlier :(
I agree, no more stagger than needed to make the fastest lap. too much only slows you down!
Thanx for another great teaching lesson Professor Dukes .i see what I have been doing wrong with bite and stagger relationship. Camaro looks good sitting there
Thanks Bill, I appreciate your encouragement
Cheers again for a great video👍
Thanks David.
Will you do a video on wheel offsets setting different back spacing to make the car tight or loose ? I have a tight in loose out I’m dealing with , G body car
Yes, everything about setup and scaling are the hot items I am see tons of views for but give me a bit. I have to get in some progress on my coil car build.
Awesome video!!
Thanks Shane.
Than you very much.
Excellent explanation and I totally understand what you're saying.
From the 20 minute mark on, I really feel like you really hit the nail on the head for my question and class.... So thank you so much.
Thank Nick, glad it's helpful
I think you actually showing the car on the scales and showing the changes is awesome! First video of yours that I have seen. Will definitely check out the others!!
Jason, thats awesome. I like the videos where I get to do that and its important to us to do the exact same on this new build where we run it and then scale it and show every change. I looking forward to making more of those kind.
AWESOME VIDEO
Thank you Jim!
So much information I really appreciate your videos every time I see one I can’t wait to get my car back on the track and try something new in a future video could you maybe explain our options on growing or shrinking a tire to help get sizes we need? I just realized I bought 4 new tires and 3 of them are nearly the same size 🤦🏻♂️
Going on the list. Thanks for the feedback John.
Could you please do a video about the different types of wheels and the different types of offsets. By the way love what you are doing here. I’ve learned a lot by just watching what you have done. Keep it up.
Thanks Reed, I'm putting together an update video and included some thoughts on wheel offsets. Thanks again for the tip and watching!
Great information Jason
Thanks Nick
Is your car for sale or is my eyesight going bad? Lol
Unfortunately yes I'm going to sell this one eventually. I need to fund the power package for the coil car build. I definitely am not a multi-car funded race team.
Thank you, thank you, thank you Jason Dukes for all the information you provide.
I recently bought a Firebird and trying to get set up to go racing for the first time since pre Y2K and I need to learn and relearn so much stuff.
I go out to my local track and nobody will talk to me or even just b.s. with me and its very discouraging and disappointing... but the information in your videos helps a ton!! Please keep up the great videos. 👍👍👍
WB3, I have been right where you are before so I can relate. Be patient, research like crazy and do it in a way that brings enjoyment to you and your team. Best of luck and thanks for watching.
I will. Thanks, and best of luck to you too.
You mean we’re not supposed to just fill them with air until they sound good when we thump them and throw them on the car?!….. lol
Great video, man! Appreciate the time you take in these videos!
I always heard if you kept filling them, eventually there was a loud warning bell that let you know that was too much ;)
@@DIRTRACELIFE haha!!
Hey Jason. I had a great friend who use to help me with setting up my cars. He use to work with Balough. Man...was he smart.
Woo. . . Gary Balough was a very serious foe both on and off the track. Talk about working with legends . . .
Hey Jason, you can call me Greg. Yes my friend, who is no longer with us was raised around some of the greatest drivers to come out of Florida. He was a really good driver himself and worked for a few of the greats and raced against some of the best short track racers to ever turn a wheel.
Personally, I would always recommend using an actual stagger tape to measure with. I found long ago that conventional tape measures will give inconsistent measurements due to the tape wanting to kink as a result of it's concave shape. Maybe not a whole bunch, but nonetheless inconsistent. Interesting information on how stagger affects the racecar. I'm an asphalt racer, but many concepts still translate over.
i see it too, i have one I use thats a 1/4" wide and the other is 3/8th" wide seems like i start seeing crinkles on anything wider but sometimes I still forget or get in a hurry and grab a wide one.
@@DIRTRACELIFE I figured as much, i know you have a stagger tape, haha. Great video, keep them coming!🏁🏆😎
Great Content Jason,can you please tell me how do you shrink a tire,im guessing its with it being make cold, be great if you bid a bit of Content on this subject,because we all know ties win races, keep up the great work....
You can't get much change but yes if you leave one at the max psi (the "for bead sealing" limit) for an extended period, it will take a permanent change. So its not about shrinking the left, its about growing the right side. But be aware, I can leave a Hoosier H500 at 40psi for a week and right afterwards I may show a 1 inch growth at 17psi but let that tire sit flat for a few more days and then bring it back to 17 and you'll find you may have gained only a 1/2 inch. But you'll keep that 1/2 or most of it during a race and not what you first saw. So it takes some time a patience and you don't get much.
Sometimes you can get it if you change the rim width.
Can you do a video about rim stagger (offset) and what that would do or affect handling. I run a 85 Chevy s-10 coil front and leaf rear. My motor is a 81-84 Toyota 22r. I run tire and rim stagger and would like to learn more about it. I also run 10” wide asphalt slicks on dirt on 15x10 steel wheel
I am hoping to come back around to this in a few months when we are working on the new car at the track. It is a complicated topic and has some conflicting features I would love to just dirt nerd out on for a good solid 30 minutes. So the sooner the better :)
Ty for the lesson. What does changing wheel widths do to stagger?
Very little Joseph, Last winter I had to do this for the Talledega Ice Bowl. I put Hoosier 3035 asphalt scuffs on 15x8s instead of my normal 15x10s. Nothing grew over 1/4 inch. Thats because moving the sidewall in or out does not change how the belts are holding the size of the center. It DOES take more air pressure to get the car to drive similar. I went up between 1 and 2 pounds on every corner. It seems to roll over on the edge of the tire more and I had to add air. Well that made for a slight gain in tire size but it was on all four so no change in stagger.
I hope this helps and thanks for watching our episodes.
I run pure stock car we have to run stock suspension springs shocks Can you give me some info on making my car turn good entering the corner is adding front stagger going to be about the only thing that will help thanks again for your videos and hopefully you will be able to get back to me with my questions
Yes Junior, your thought on adding front stagger is an option. It would increase LR bite and thats going to help loosen your entry. But keep in mind every change has consequences. Every setup is different so be aware it could cause other changes like a throttle push in the center.
No free lunch on this stuff. Takes time to get a good grip on what a car needs so be patient and keep researching as you work on it.
Is this the same rule of thumb on everything you said whenever it comes down to dirt oval go-kart racing
Gocart racing setups are very very different and way outside my experience. I would think the amounts would be very different and how it affects the driving line would be different as well.
Maybe a video on bite next
I'm coming back around to scaling and bite again but I need to get some progress on my coil car build first. Going to be a few before I can do it. But I will!
Help us front wheel drive guys
Robert, my wife and I thoroughly enjoy watch a field packed full of FWD's racing. Some of the best door to door gritty racing.... but man I sure don't have my brain wrapped around the technical side of how to make one work best :(
@@DIRTRACELIFE ok thank you by
Would this be beneficial to a crown vic dirt track car? The track is banked pretty good and the high line seems to be the line that always works.
Absolutely, tire stagger and how it affects the turning radius is universal to circle track racing. I will say this, high banking typically means you need a liitle less stagger.
Will this same presentation work on put bite in or taking bite out of a dirt modified?
Yes, This is very universal John. Wouldn't be any difference in a modified as far as the direction of change and what it impacts but keep in mind there is MUCH more adjustability when you add all the adjustments in a modified (Pullbar, J Bar, Radius rods, Indexing, Etc)
I raced ministocks and curently race a streetstock, and at our track I've always ran about 1" max rear stagger on a heavy track with alot of grip, and alot of the time ran no stagger. Dad tells me he used to run negative stagger back in his day (1980s/1990s). We've both always preferred to run a little tighter setup than most.
I have run only 1 inch many times successfully as well but have never had any luck at all with reverse stagger. I know a few folks who have done it and made it work but I am not one of them :(
Reverse stagger was usually used by people with open rear ends to stop spinning the left rear in the corners.
My car keeps trying to spin out in the corner and I have added weight and took weight out but still have the same problem. My stagger is pretty much right but I can't keep it from coming around on me. This is a factory stock car.
Kenneth, there can be many many different causes. First and foremost it can be difficult to keep a car under you if your rear percentage is less than half (50%) unless setup is very close. You say you add weight and take weight out but that's not necessarily the issue as long as you have some reasonable amount of rear percentage (lets say at least 50%). REALLY need to find someone with scales who can scale it for you. You may find you just don't have your left rear bite even close to a workable number. And absolutely check all suspension everywhere for a bind. Binds on any corner can make a car unpredictable at turn entry and when you pick the throttle up.
I appreciate you watching and hope this helped.
this may be a dumb question, but this will be my first year racing so bare with me. How do you adjust the circumference of the tire to adjust stagger? Is it all related to tire pressure or what? Thanks for any help!
Like all answers it "Yes and No" :(
Here's the deal. On a radial tire there are steel belts and the circumference is very fixed. It may change slightly with air pressure but you have to be far to under or over inflated to see the change and at that point the tire is not working right anyway. If you are on radials and need stagger, you should look at it from a standpoint of running the air pressure you need and running two different size tires to get the circumference difference (stagger) you need.
On bias tires (which is what racing tires are) the belts are nylon cord and the tires will vary in size for the same model tire and can by coaxed into growing a small amount if needed. Here's a good rule of thumb on racing tires. You will gain 1/10th of one inch per 1 psi in a tire. So for example I could have two H500 tires that are both 87 inches at 13 psi but I run the left one at 13 and the right one at 18 and I find the right one has grown to 87.5" at 18psi instead of 13.
Many people will tell you to air tires you need larger up to their safe max and leave them a couple days to let them grow. I have found they typically return close to where they were eventually but will keep about a 1/4" of the gain at most. It's worth doing if you need the stagger but just keep in mind when you do this, don't think you have that 1/2" or 3/4" growth you may initially see. Just let the air out of them from another day to rest and then put them at running pressure and see what you have.
@@DIRTRACELIFE thanks for taking the time to reply. I enjoy watching your videos and learning something!
So basically what your saying is, too little stagger you go inside and too much it pushes you out. Or is it vise versa
Opposite of that. Too little can push out and too much can crab you in
23:45
I run a front wheel drive class. How could I get stagger to help me?
If the transaxle is locked then it applies the same way but to the front tires. If it's an open differential then stagger is just changing the ride height and wedge in the car.
How is the rear suspension on your Camaro work/look
I use the composite leafs and use extended length shackles on the rear. 1.5 block on the left and a stock mount plus a 1 inch on the left. (Probably the same as a aftermarket with a 2 inch block). I run my shackles at 8, 9, or 10 inches depending on the setup (i change at times to meet needs).
Ill have to come back and do another video on it. The first one is deep in setup and scaling but doesn't get into all the details on the leafs.
ua-cam.com/video/jeFV6ASUkgw/v-deo.html
Thanks for watching!
What would you recommend on a 602 late model as far as stagger
Thomas, thats a bit outside my area of expertise. Its sure going to be more depending on your left rear lead / right rear trail but exactly how much... :(
I’m running 3” of stagger in the rear, 1/2” up front, catching the guys ahead of me in the corner then they pull in the straights. I’m posting the video now, can you watch it and give me your opinion? I’m 5th fastest lap average, 15 cars but about half a second behind the 4 above me….
Kyle. . . . . Well it ain't slow either :)
Seriously though I watched the heat and feature you posted. At first I thought you were just a bit tight on entry but after watching it all I think you are just under geared compared to your competition. You look hooked up but they are clearly out pulling you off the corner especially if your line through the corner is not nice and smooth. Being undergeared &/or under motored is causing you to "appear" tight to me. If you can't get up on power or gear then I would say you need to get that car freed up some just like any 602 racer would do.
I'm a stock car guy with a lot less modified experience so just keep in mind these are outside observer opinions but I hope it's some helpful insight.
@@DIRTRACELIFE I appreciate your opinion! I like watching your videos. All crates so I don’t think motor is the issue unless they are all cheated up 🤷🏻♂️ same gear as far as I know. 5.43 @6000-6200rpm depending on track conditions 6200 chip. They all have a lot more experience than me tho so could be that. 🤷🏻♂️
does this apply to asphalt as well
Well yes and no.... to be clear I have dirt experience. I love it all but have no asphalt tracks anywhere near me. The rules of how stagger changes bite in the car and how stagger affects drive in the turn radius are still true but the amount and the characteristics of how for example a 1 inch change affects the car would have to be drastictically different on asphalt. We need an asphalt expert to chime in here cause it is not me :)
if i increase stagger in the front it will increase bite help the car turn in and can reduce rear tire stagger for more bite ? just thinking outside the box could you hillbilly the rear tire stagger too help the car push a little on a big dry oval track ??????????
Dino, yes adding some stagger in front will loosen entry some due to increasing the LR bite. Can help you in a pinch at the track. You have to be alot more careful on those rear tires. The stagger needs to match the track requirements and adjust bite elsewhere. Also I would NEVER suggest running reverse stagger. If you are doing that and it works, you have serious issues elsewhere to be fixed and the car is not going to be as fast as it potentially could be with the correct stagger. Hope this helps and thanks for watching!
@@DIRTRACELIFE Thank you
I need to gain about a 100 more lbs of left rear bite how can i go about doing that on a factory stock no screw buckets no jack bolt
leaf or coil car?
Coil spring
Ok the fastest one is different height springs. so for example a 13" LR and 11" RR. thats going to net you 100lbs with a quickness. you can do the same on front but its not as good a deal to do a 12" RF and 11" LF
Another thing if legal, cut the LR spring mount off the rear and put a 1/2" spacer under it. or 3/4. play around with it on the scales and figure out how much spacer gets you there.
@DIRTRACELIFE it's already that way so I guess trying spacers on the left rear spring would be my best bet
why is it my coil spring car prefers reverse stagger? i have to run my right rear 1 1/2 to 2 inches shorter to get it through the corners.....
and it is fast through the corner but loses forward bit on exit till about mid track
It's hard to say for sure but my gut says something is way off.
A couple things to check. First scale it if you can get it on scales. You should have SOME amount of left rear weight greater than Right rear weight. It very much depends on the car and setup but if its not somewhere between 50 and 250 lbs then you've got trouble. Ok so what if you can't do that???? Well, get a socket, sit it on the jack and put it under the rearend housing. Make sure the right rear tire lifts before the left rear. How much? With the car on level concrete, driver in car, and correct tires and pressures the right rear should be between 1/2 inch and 1 inch off the ground at the point the left rear is just breaking contact with the ground. this is SUPER old school but will at least help you get in the ball park.
NEXT BIG THING THIS COULD BE: You could have WAY too much left rear lead in the car. String the car and check how much lead the left rear has. If you measure more than 1/4 inch then you may want to address this (be warned depending on track, chassis type, and driver there are times it could be appropriate to have that much lead or even more... It's hard to cover all that in this one comment)
I appreciate you watching my videos and hope maybe some of these ideas are helpful.
Those tires are matched perfect and stagerd special.if you.....
If you? Gotta share those secrets James!
@@DIRTRACELIFE days of thunder quote :)
Dang if I didn't miss that!
The secret is drive it
Where did you get your degree at???
David, I went into Tennessee's Automotive Technology Vocational program straight out of high school and then had a career in heavy equipment and diesel for many years but then in my 30's went to work for a large manufacturer and took advantage of a tuition reimbursement program to go to school at night first at a local community college receiving an associates degree in computer science but then earning my bachelors degree from the university of Tennessee in business. So here's a little bit of insight. Years ago I was priced out of racing. Turning wrenches and raising a family just didn't allow for me to afford it. I stepped away from racing and from being a mechanic in order to go to work in a completely different field, get the education, and grow my income to the point I was able to return to what my passion is. I will say this. Even though all my schooling was not in fields directly related to racing, just going through all that taught me the value of doing research, studying, patience, and discipline and I believe this is helping me now in how I build and also making the videos.
@@DIRTRACELIFE You are doing a great job! Myself, I had no passion for racing until I went to my local track (Potomac Speedway) to help out a friend. I was hooked the first time I went. I have Bachelors in Economics with a minor in music but nothing has taught me as much hands on skills( welding, fabricating, painting, designing etc.) as racing has. I work for NAVAIR as a Program Manager and I take what I learn from both racing and Naval Aviation and apply engineering designs, systems engineering, and lessons learned. I'm always looking to make a better racecar. Appreciate the videos.
Please
Ya killin me Robert. . . I'm gona have to get this car done and on the track this season... BUT I'm not ruling out building one for someone in the family if I ran across the right one this year to do it with. Then of course i would have to share that :) but thats me just kinda theorizing how it "could" happen one day.
@@DIRTRACELIFE keep up the good work can’t wait till your next video
Nothing better than chemicals you put in tires
are you saying you might know something about some of them Crate Insider products??? 😆
I treated all my asphalt tires about 20 years ago and yeah there is some really good stuff out there.
its a no for me now on these H500s though.