Olympic Handlebar Failure
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- Опубліковано 4 сер 2021
- Handlebar Failure at the Tokyo Olympic Team Pursuit Qualifying Round.
What we know.............
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The voice of reason, as always. Raoul, thanks for sharing your knowledge and giving us an informed opinion, as always.
Thanks for the update... as always an accurate perspective from an actual engineer.
Raoul, happy to see another video from you, though the circumstances are certainly “less than ideal”. Agree that a proper and disciplined analysis is required before any conclusions can be drawn. Arm chair experts will always jump in first, but hopefully a thorough and transparent explanation can generate a more educated market. Olympic cycling has been great to watch! Stay safe!
@@MrSpecialized75 Nobody has any idea what you're talking about.
Tom sturdy has talked about the difficulty in getting information about the structural properties of 3d printed metals, and how he's had to do a ton of his own testing to get workable parts. Seems like we're still in the early days of this manufacturing technique.
People say that aerospace is too conservative sometimes, however there are good reasons for this. We all remember the early failures of aluminium and carbon bike parts. Bastion however has done lots of testing also, so hopefully it is not an unknown unknown.
@@LuescherTeknik The problem is people aren't instantly sent into space on the merit of their ideas about aviation.
yea... I'm not a big 3D print fan.
Great video Raoul - good to see a level headed and fact orientated approach. Most importantly Alex isn’t too badly hurt and the team won the bronze.
Name one fact stated in this video. It's a statement of that he has nothing to say.
@@johnsmith1474 one fact he stated was the cause of the failure is unknown. another fact he stated was it is a titanium 3d printed part that failed. maybe you don't know what a fact is
Wait, hang on, armchair experts? And nobody called me???
Can't wait to hear your analysis Raoul.
Rather than this pointless video.
The failure occured because the part was 3D printed metal. There is no "grain" in 3D printed metal (there is no true constant). To calculate stress in a 3D printed part it is all just a big guess. Metal traditionally processed creates a uniform mollecular structure. 3D printing metal is basically fusing micro universes of metal fused to eachother, there is no particular grain and no particular uniform structure on a mollecular level. A 3D printed metal can perform well for static load testing (possibly because for its displacment, it is lighter due to microscopic voids), but for dynamic load.......?
Not necessarily true. Depends on the printing method.
The second I saw that crash I thought of you Raoul and I appreciate you taking the time to comment in the knowledge that many of us who know about you would be looking forward to your comments! It’s interesting that you make a quick video explaining why not even the most qualified expert in the world can explain what happened until there is a thorough inspection, and arm chair experts instantly explain what caused the failure!
Fact over fiction/speculation. Well said raull.
Love your analysis of this kind of stuff, happy to call a spade a spade but not until you've confirmed it is indeed a spade :-)
I am curious how this one plays out, I hope more info comes out in time. I was amazed at the strength of some metal 3d printed parts I have seen with almost no material but lots of triangulation. But they were always quite 'grainy' at least on the surface so I wondered how it would handle an impact.
3D printing is basically sintering, isn't it? Obviously, forged parts are way stronger. I wouldn't use 3D printed stuff for anything structural on the bike. This stuff can hold a headunit or so...
Looking forward to see the analysis report. Through out the history we have always been learning from mistakes, even the catastrophic ones, this is one of them.
I agree, otherwise we would still be living in caves, but you have to read the history.
way more respectably anlayses than durianriders ... thank you for that Raoul !!!
Not surprising right?
@@fastestmilkman3840 true Story
But not nearly as entertaining…
I watch duriannrider for a laugh not for a synopsis.
"Analysis" and "Durianrider" should not be used in the same sentence - unless it's psychoanalysis! Ha, ha, ha!
(His opinions on the Dygert crash were laughable at best.)
Hey Raoul I knew you'd have something to say before long👍
I think most people would think it's carbon because titanium as a handlebar part is unusual especially 3d printed. My first thought was it's carbon and how has it been handled or mishandled. Again until a report is produced it could be anything. I'd be surprised if the material and parts haven't gone through some very thorough computer and mechanical Stress testing.
Nicely said 👌
As others have pointed out - 3D printed metal has been in use in aero industry for quite a while; however bike industry is seldom up-to to aeronautical quality, specification and design. The old joke is if you’re not good enough to be an engineer in aeronautical you can always work in the bike industry
spot on ,
Video on hookless rims would be cool
Luescher ... would you ride down a steep incline with those bars, brake hard and make a sharp turn?
No, they failed. I would like to know what led to the failure before using similar parts.
@@LuescherTeknik Thank you for your reply. You have done cutups of the two frames sets that I ride hard without failures (Dogma 60.1 and Dogma F8). My MOst aluminium bars and MOst carbon fiber bars and Zipp carbon fiber bars have performed well many times during hard breaking on steep, high speed descends.
Well said!
Thanks Raoul, i did do a video on this, but left the opinion side open as to the material and likely cause. It is both concerning and lucky no one was hurt. Very interested to see the outcome of the investigation. Cheers for the update.
3d printed titanium is also used in the aircraft industry and is considered to be better for certain parts than forged titanium.
I would have thought something like a stem would benefit from directional properties. Also, my engineering instinct says that a crystalline structure without directional (forged) properties will be far more susceptible to fatigue cracking.
Two points I would like to make.
1. There are always risks of failure when using leading edge technologies (bleeding edge in some cases) and transporting these things around with multiple assembling/reassembling cycles. The level of the inspection and manufacturing processes may vary from one manufacturer to another.
The goal is to minimise those risks while maximizing chances to win. Hey, it's the Olympics ! Everybody and everything is pushed to its actual limits.
If Bastion is a serious company, it's an opportunity to get better at what they do. We were fortunate to have no one seriously injured. But we can also all learn from that. Which brings me to my second point.
2. My problem is more with people doing the same while riding for insignificant races (they'll never be Olympians or they will never makes a decent living wage out of it) or worst with people riding for leisure purposes.
These people are even sometimes using dubious equipment. They are free to get themselves killed but not put others at risks.
This crazy "race" towards the "best" and lightest equipment for marginal gains, I'm sure, has caused serious injuries or maybe lost of lives. And all of this to boosts fragile egos of amateur racers or weekend warriors.
Remember, you're not at the Olympics ! The stakes are not worth it.
I have to disagree, you need to test and have a design safety margin. This type of product development is well established. You can choose to short cut this depending on the risk and application, i.e. the aviation industry high, a bottle opener low. Items shouldn't fail being used as advertised. People can get seriously hurt or potentially killed from such failures.
@@waynosfotos
Remember the Boeing 737 Max ?
How many deaths ?
Ride up grades, not upgrades!
TLDW: I don’t know yet
What is good about speculations is that they raise awareness in other companies and not let Bastion keep the problem in secret. In this manner the whole industry benefits, especially the riders
Well said
Nothing wrong with speculation especially raising awareness, however broadcasting it as fact doesn't help. As you know I am all about rider safety, but the message can get clouded by misinformation.
Why do bars have to be 3d printed? Weren't the non 3d metal bars holding up well enough?
They were custom made to suit the rider position, the standard ones were carbon and too short for the rider, making custom carbon molds was said to be too expensive for a one off part. This failure was arguably more costly.
...but struth does that look thin.
Maybe the part was exposed to a prior impact starting the failure mode. This will doubtless be looked at.
any update on this story?
Cycling Australia is running the investigation, I haven't seen the parts.
its only a mistake if we dont learn from it. In yachting they say, if its going to break, its going to break out there. A salute to all the armchair admirals out there.
Well said on all counts Raoul.
It might not have been a manufacturing defect. Something could have happened during transport, you just never know until you properly analyze it.
The thing i thought was strange was how quickly they seemed to revert back to regular programming with their social presence. If they couldn't diagnose the issue straight away, doesn't that bring the safety of all their equipment in to disrepute? I'm sure it will all blow over eventually, but i don't think they've done much to address a trust issue with their equipment.
I was surprised by this also.
How do the bulk properties of 3-D printed titanium compare with titanium used in more typical ways? For example, strength, ductility, fatigue resistance? I'd imagine different alloys are used for the 3-D process? For that matter, how does the 3-D process work for titanium? Are the results more like casting or forging? Are 3-D products heat treated after they are printed?
The engineers with experience in typical methods of manufacture might be caught out by differences in the properties of 3-D printed titanium?
From that one picture earlier there seems like no internal structure is added, but then again I thought that and then proceeded to forget this wasn't a carbon failure.
Seems a lot of people (including me) go to the simplest explanation with any vaguely presented or falsely remembered data.
Looking now at the full bar it seems like the shape raises stress where it failed. I probably am as far away from the actual insight as I am from putting down Olympic level power into something like this.
Ha, ha! I posted "Paging Leuscher Technik(sic)!" a few days ago on a video about this. Looks like it worked!
(Sorry I misspelled it though!)
3d printing is in wide use including aircraft industry. So there no blaming that tech. Perhaps next time use a more established brand with deeper engineering skills, especially when you only get onechance to win eg Olympics. 🤔
3D printed titanium parts clearly don't have enough structural integrity... Surely anyone with an ounce of common sense wouldn't trust powdered titanium that has been fused together by a laser!
What equipment in any field or industry with any level of complexity do you think isn't held together by the results of a plasma arc?
Any update on this shit?
Cycling Australia are doing a review, I haven't any information on where they are at with this.
@6:03 Little jab to durianrider, deserved. Wanker that guy is.
All l know if it isn t designed and made by this MAN l will NOT being using any one piece bar n stem combos anytime soon !! Too many failures for my liking !! l prefer to keep my body in one piece !!
Hummmm.... I wonder if the first part was for another Aussie youtuber, from Adelaide specifically 🤔 It would be nice for him to stfu about he knows nothing about. Even more in this type of situation.
Great video Raoul, thank you!
Bro you ride disc brakes on a road bike because a PR company said you should 😄🤣❤
@@durianriders You have accusations of sexual assault against. You. I don’t think you should throw stones.
@@durianriders Good think I ride a 2010 Giant TCR Advanced with a SRAM Force 10spd groupset and Vision Trimax 42 clincher wheels... So now you say what dummy?
@@theobuzat9091 you pic is of a disc bike though...just saying.
@@discbrakefan dude that's a bit low don't you think.
we have 1 large fact LT, the bars failed on the world stage using a technology that's not proven at this level under those conditions - bastion credibility ..... gone. as a cyclist and engineer blind freddy can see that. such at critical component fail that could have resulted in serious injury or death on the road for example. with respect to your expertise; I wish you put your critical hat on like you do with the frame cut ups - just shows business is business. 3D printed peanut butter. 3d printed gimmick trickery. fancy overpriced grap at the end of the day.
You mean unproven like the Jet One handlebars used in 2016 Olympics? Or the ones Metron made for 2020/21? Your credibility is gone.
SO how about an explanation then?? ARE they going to compensate the cyclist for his injuries ?? Are they going to change how they make parts not to fail in the future ?? l certainly would not want their parts on anything l ride drive or especially fly in !!
Yes, the next steps to answer those questions is critical.
You can neither explain with any certainty without data, nor make your engineering decisions based on it…!
The false equivalency of one part failing for unknown reason, implicating any other part made by the same company regardless or process, technique or even material is why your comment doesn't add anything of value.
To make a quick observation. Any part of that bike isn't meant to take on-axis knocks, or high stress. The stem is at the end of the mechanical advantage the handlebars give, and that is a common source of knocks. You are pointing the finger at Bastion, when from the info presented, the team decides to run the same setup on a different bike again afterwards. Bastion is one of the non-cowboy brands in cycling, I think we are better served waiting for better answers.
You also don't know who put it together, how, or the critical dimensional properties of any of the interface it is connected to, which is made by someone else. If you want to take Luechers advice, you are listening to someone with input in Bastion manufacturing. If you ride a car from a very common brand, the same engineers have been involved in making parts for it. And so on and so forth.
You just saw the name "Bastion" and ran with it, and we know that because we don't know anything else at this point.
In the end, one can narrow down the reason of failure as one or a combination of the following aspects:
1. wall thickness (or in general: design);
2. overthightening while assembling;
3. material used;
4. previous damage (transport, previous crash);
5. production method (3D, welded,...)
You call it uninformed, speculation,... to talk about this without analysis, but if it was well-designed with the right design, materials and production method, it wouldn't fail. There hasn't any catastrophic TT bar failure in the last 2 decades, in the way this one happened (just riding the extensions). So just call it as it is: a bad base bar.
Given your tautology mentions bad assembly, but discards that outright - and fails to mention other simple factors like the possibility of previous damage, I think concluding “ bad bike part” is indeed a great example of uninformed speculation.
@@tychoMX The chance of failure, overthightening a bad bike part, is MUCH bigger than when overthightening a good bike part. Something about torque tolerances being higher before failure. Go figure. Moreover, as the failure occurred at the area where 2 of 4 bolts are present, it's very likely that the design and bolt placement is a factor in the failure. When you have a bad assembly, of a bolt that is designed to sit in a high-stress area, you increase the chance of failure because of bad design.
I didn't discard bad assembly; your reading comprehension failed to see that, and you just read what you want to read. Keep emotions out of this, just like Luescher is way too emotional here and defends Bastion, because he is involved in business with Bastion.
@@l.d.t.6327 LOL. “Everyone is emotional. Except me. I’m objective and everyone that disagrees isn’t “
Did I interpret that correctly? Note i have no stake in this matter other than technical curiosity. I also have no rush to reach a conclusion.
Based on your analysis any failed part is a “bad part”. Because even banging things in storage and crashing are commonplace events in cycling. Therefore, we could postulate parts should be designed to withstand those stresses - and if not, they are a “bad part”. Hence the tautology.
Now, you may absolutely be right. But at this point you’re doing little but guessing.
@@tychoMX No you didn't interprete that correctly. I didn't say that any failed part is a bad part. I said that SPECIFICALLY a basebar snapping halfway, not even during the start but halfway in a race, is a first in as long as I can remember. After millions of track events, it's a first, in real life, in practice. If that isn't a bad part, Alex Porter will convince you of the contrary.
You're not in a rush, but do you naively think that Bastion will speak out if they conclude it's a design fault? They can say whatever they want, and if they are smart, they will choose whatever of the 3 below:
1. that some bolts were overthightened by human error (not using a torque wrench, not setting the torque wrench correctly, etc);
2. 1 bar was badly produced because there was something wrong with the 3D printer;
3. the bar was probably damaged in transport;
This way, Bastion is cleared, at least for you. Because it won't come up in your mind that it's the first time in history that a base bar cracks halfway because bolts were overthightened (that can only happen because the bolts were designed to be in that specific place, halfway along the upper stem), and it won't come into your mind that 1 badly produced bar means at this level means it's a design with very (too) low tolerances, and if it's damaged in transport, it'll be a first as well to crack somewhere halfway in the (if the design is right) most stress-resistent part of that bar.
Or do you really think they will come up with saying that it's a design fault?
ps: If the bar was previously crashed, it should have been replaced (which is common sense with this kind of parts)
If I come across to you as emotional it is because of the way that failure could have resulted in a significantly worse injury to Alex and potentially other riders. My involvment with Bastion is with the carbon parts on the fork in terms of QC, if there is a QC issue with the 3D printed Ti, I want to know about it more than just about anyone, thats why we need a proper failure analysis.
If the printing and wall thickness was QC better at Bastion this wouldn't have happened.
Until you know the cause you can’t make that claim. Maybe the part was previously damaged or miss installed. Also, quality control will check the part is to specification. If the designed spec is inadequate quality control won’t help.
Adam, this video is about you
If my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike
A blatant example of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
And furthermore, if the Queen had balls she would be the King.
2m in, it's just blather. 4m in, just blather. 6m in, nothing. Get to the point man or don't make a video.
His point is - don't make assumptions until you have data to proof, I think this vid is a reply for another youtuber.
Hi John, it's been a while ;)
Two words in, don't comment. Second clause in, don't make a comment, etc.