How to Clean Top Rope Anchors
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2018
- Although cleaning top rope anchors is a fairy straight forward task it still leads to many close calls and accidents every year. In this video learn the foundational skills to clean top top anchors and be lowered off of a single pitch climb with help from the American Mountain Guides Association.
The issues of when to lower or when to rappel is a complex one and has no perfect answer. The most common way to get off a crag pitch is to lower and many crags have been set up with lowering in mind by installing easy to replace rings or twist links. That being said many crags have a local ethos of rappelling whenever possible and this is certainly a best practice when anchor wear is a concern. - Спорт
Very good videos. No long introduction, no music, no bullshit. I stay tuned.
In the second technique I had never thought to attach the rope to me with a figure of eight on a locking carbiner, I always clove hitch and attach to a gear loop just to stop myself from dropping it, but having it set up as an additional safety on belay makes so much sense!
same!!
Yes, this is essential whenever you are using the last bolt below the anchor as part of your redundant system. Note that you get this for free when you're leading but will need to remember to re-clip the top draw to the belayer's side of the rope if you're top roping.
I personally prefer to just go in direct to one anchor bolt with a single quickdraw when cleaning, and rely on the top bolt (below me) for redundancy. This system is simpler than the ones shown in the video and no less secure than standard hang dogging techniques familiar to pretty much all experienced sport climbers.
This!! Exactly
I think a clove hitch (instead of an 8) with a locker on a certified anchor point on your harness is safe enough as a backup attachment point temporarily... and any time adjustable.
Maybe the best climbing video I have seen in several decades
Two golden rules:
1. Always be under tension
2. Never un-clip anything under tension
🙏
Great, informative and concise!
I liked how they added 'Better to have the quickdraws clipped under the chains' at 0:50.
Why exactly is this? I'm guessing it's due to having less pinching action on the quickdraw carabiner, but who knows?
@@Rycamcam I believe that is exactly it. The chains underneath can push on the carabiners and load them in a way they are not intended to be strained
The second half of this was super helpful. I ran into a snag at an anchor this past weekend when I got to the top and I couldn't pass a bight through the chains. I ended up fumbling at the anchor for what felt like 10 minutes because I weighted my PAS on top of the quickdraws and couldn't figure out how to clean... It was so embarrassing. Thank you so much for this.
Did you whip out or phone and watch this? Woulda been cool
Very well done. Clear and concise. Excellent visualization. Thanks
the best video on how to clean a top rope I have seen.
Best cleaning video I have found yet. Thanks!!
Thank you for the tips! Greatly detailed and explained very well. Helped me lead my first 5.10c!
This is the best video I’ve found so far for cleaning an anchor. Thank you
Thank you for this! I’ve been tying cloves to a spare biner to keep the rope from falling. Never thought to do an overhand or figure 8 on a bight to a biner. Seems much more efficient. Also never thought to run a bight directly through the chains. This should save a lot of time.
Thank god. I thought everyone else was an idiot, but you have restored my faith in the climbing community. Rappelling is dangerous AF. Who reppells when there is this obvious save easy way to avoid it? I have always used a figure 8 on a bight because it unties easier but other than that, method 1 is the way I have been doing it for decades.
Best video I have seen on this so far, the two methods were great!
Awesome video! I learned so much!! I´m starting in sports Climbings!! thank you guys!
This is really very good - thanks for posting
Why unclip at 2:20? You can thread the bight through the rings and clip to your harness while still being on belay the whole time. Then unclip draws.
I know right, and then at 2:40 he says "...and I'm on belay the whole time" when 20 seconds earlier, he is totally off belay. Seems better not to unclip from the anchor until the new loop is clipped to the harness.
He's "on belay" as in the rope runs through the quickdraw below him. Could leave the rope through the top paired QD's, if that all blows though he'd still fall to the lower QD.
if he is top roping then all the quick draws below him may have been cleaned so there might not be a quick draw left and thus not truly on belay if there is no protection below. @@tomhoyland3096
@@tessie07 yeah my bad, I went off the scenario at 4:26 not the one described.
Was about to ask about this as well! Sure he's got the top quick draw, but with top rope it wouldn't be the case. Really there's no reason to unclip until that rope is through the rings and locked to the harness
Great video thanks! I’ve always done it the second way but I actually like your first method better because you thread it through the anchor sooner.
THis is the best ive seen, you can also replace the quickdraws with sling, and you can add a russic for redantancy
yeah really good video with clear instructions and good advice
Thank you, I've only trad climbed before and friends want to take me sport climbing. Very clear instruction that makes me feel more confident :-)
Extremely informative in a clear fashion. Now I gotta gain enough experience to climb outdoors and remember these tips!
That's exactly what I needed. Thank you!
Damn I just love these videos. Best out here for sure.
Reading through the comments here I see a lot of people mentioning the value of the top bolt below the anchors as a secondary protection point during the process. However many of the same people are suggesting that it's only available when you lead and not when you top rope.
What I see most climbers missing, both here and at the crag, is that top ropers can easily regain the benefits of the top bolt by simply re-clipping it to the belayer's side of the rope on their way up. This should be standard practice.
Keep in mind that the most unreliable part of a system like this is the one between your ears. The beauties of the top bolt secondary protection point are twofold: 1. Your belayer can usually inspect it from the ground. 2. It's far enough away from your meddling hands that you can't inadvertently disconnect it until you are truly ready to.
very helpful thank you
Great video!
Awesome video!
Superbly clear instructions, thanks! I agree with one of the other commenters on here that method 2 (timestamp 4:44) is superior because you don't have excess rope dangling next to you while you're being lowered. Wastes less rope and doesn't get in the way unlike method 1.
I like method 1 because there is no way to drop the rope. I've seen too many instances at crags where someone dropped their rope and someone else had to go up to save them
@@michaelgeorge2963 You couldn’t drop the rope in method two as long as you follow it. You are tied in at all times, unless you skipped re tying for some reason and unsecured yourself
Very clear thank you
super duper explanation. thank you very much.
Thanks really helpful video
Very nice indeed. Could you also do one for rappelling off?
Nice video, thanks!
Another measure is for the belayer, after taking slack, to ask "is that you?" with the climber replying, "yes, that is me". This ensures the rope is not stuck somewhere. A similar communication can be applied non verbally, ie. when climber is off-sight and wind prohibits hearing. Lead Climber reaches anchor and pulls the rope 3 times. Second climber replies with 3 times. Lead sequres the second and pull ropes 4 times, signalling "i have you, is this you?", after which the second replies and starts climbing. As not being able to communicate in multi pitch is a not so rare of an issue, practises like the above should always be communicated and agreed before the start of the climb.
great video
Good video thanks
In the first scenario, you can simply pass a bite of rope through the chains WITHOUT unclipping from the QuickDraws. This maintains redundancy and means you don’t need to clip that third QuickDraw from the anchor to your PAS.
True. If you're cleaning the route on your way down, unclipping and cleaning the QDs still means you have protection from the next clip below. If your PAS or the chains/bolts somehow blew (I can't see how that would ever happen), then it would be the same as falling at the anchor before you clipped. I personally clean the QDs before feeding a bight through the chains (Dale actually unclips the QDs but doesn't clean the QDs until later) solely to declutter the anchor. It gets messy otherwise having both a PAS and the QDs at the anchor AND then feeding a bight of rope through the system, especially if it's a hanger and a single ring or mussey hook (no chains).
In a top-rope scenario, where there is no protection below, I would certainly do it the way you described.
I think both ways are totally safe -- it's a matter of preference.
Wish I saw this before my fall 7 years ago. I did say "off belay" and my belayer went away. I did test before I released from the anchor, but rope drag gave me the impression that someone is holding me.
damn. how far did you fall? what kind of injuries?
So you found it necessary to say "off belay", but let's not bother with that pesky "on belay" and "take" and waiting for a response? Hmm.
Solid video. As an idea, you should show how to deal with your partner making the unfortunate decision to have the anchor draws clipped through the rings/lowest chain link. I think there's a lot of people out there good with cleaning nice setups, but making potentially dangerous mistakes when they have to deal with messy setups (partially because there's not a whole lot out there in terms of dealing with a mess tutorials).
That's why chains are used, so it doesn't matter what link gets used for the quickdraws. You will always have a free link above or below the draw to use for the rope. Your scenario is absolutely no different then what he did in this video.
so much advice right here - THANK YOU
A partner and I had a near miss because we used those different techniques on the same route. I climbed first and used technique 2, then was lowered off to the ground. All good. Then my partner went up and used technique 1. But because technique 1 uses more rope, at about 4 meters from the ground the rope slid through my Smart (luckily he was holding on to both strands with one hand to clean a quickdraw, and didn't fall). Mistake here was clearly not to tie a knot at the rope end or tie it to the rope bag (which we both normally do...). But the fact that I lowered off without any problem with technique 2 and he came up short shows that technique 1 is a bit wasteful rope-wise. The rope end knot would have clearly saved a fall, but on overhanging terrain it still leads to a problem: he'd have to rope ascend. So for me, NEVER forget to knot or tie the rope end, and use technique 2.
Thanks for sharing. Glad you both were OK.
Thanks for sharing your experience!
WTF, seriously. you got onto a climb with a rope that was within at most a couple meters of being too short, including rope extension, and didn't even have a knot at the end of it. And your take away is "those extra two meters of rope may save your life" ?! Man, just get a long-enough rope, tie that fucking stopper knot, and use technique #1 which is faster and safer
@@user-qn9ku2fl2b glad you never make any mistakes. Faster by what, 10sec? And safer how? And btw, it's great you always know exactly the length of each route you climb before climbing them, especially when there is no topo.
@@suezix8689 be safe, for the rest d what you want. but do have a stopper knot, especially if you're not certain about the length of aroute
0:53 How would this process differ if the quickdraws used for top-roping were placed under the chains rather than over? If they were placed under the chains and PAS carabiners, won't they be impossible to remove at the end due to the weight placed on them by the chains?
My only qualm is using an overhand bite to lower on. I would recommend those out there use a proper figure 8 on a bite
What route are you on? It's beautiful!
10/10
Dale, for technique 2, is there any specific reason for having the rope-end of the two quickdraws holding you to the chains? Is it for your visual cue that similar quickdraws don't mess up your visual inspection? I was thinking of using the bolt-end of the quickdraws to clip into the chains, but I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Thank you for being so precise!
Am also interested in a response on this as I thought the idea was never to use the rope end on anything other than rope to prevent nicks and scratches forming on the gate (from clipping into anchors) which could compromise the rope... As far as the String being at the top, I don’t think it matters for this application as it is acting in a static hold and the orientation shouldn’t change.
You make a valid point for not using the rope biner for clipping chain anchors. Maybe he has dedicated quickdraws for cleaning, I don't know, but there shouldn't be any specific reason for using a quickdraw that way. I use slings with lockers that are dedicated to cleaning. Just girth hitch the sling and I'm good to go. I don't like to abuse my quickdraws either.
@@MotoAtheist Just a heads up: slings lose up to 50% of their strength when girth-hitched and any kind of shock load (slipping and falling onto them) could blow those slings. Definitely done the same thing myself, but along with using a daisy chain to clip to anchors, gave it up as best practice.
@@archaeopteryxish Considering a sling can practically hold up a truck and there is absolutely no possible way of them getting shocked loaded since I'm putting my weight on them thus incapable of falling any further and zero chance to cause any shock with enough force to essentially break me in two. So it's already essentially zero chance of one breaking and since I have two.... well.... pretty sure at 180lbs... yeah... not happening... EVER!
@@MotoAtheist fair enough!
Does anyone have a preference if to thread the rope through the chains from the left or the right depending on where my belayer is standing or which direction the rope is underneath me from the direction of the route. I seem to have trouble that while lowering my rope gets overlapped and kinks a bit making it hard to descend.
I was taught to never use an overhand knot for lowering and to always use a figure 8
So at 6:10 you took yourself off the anchor belay, would it not be safer to tie the bight above the anchor draws so should your draws-harness fail, you do not get the fall/shock to the next draw? Or if this was an overhang that you did 2nd and had to clean on the way, this would leave you on hard and off belay. The first method was neat though, very clean.
first case: no. Considering the safety chain, the idea is that you 'trust' your own gear (otherwise you shouldn't be climbing with it at all). You have to protect yourself from failure of links in the safety chain you cannot fully trust (the anchor/chain/bolts in this case). Should one of these links fail, whether or not you connected the rope above or below the anchor draws will make no difference.
second case: correct. A good practise in this case: while cleaning, leave the last one or two draws in the route, and clip your belayer's rope in these draws when unclipping the climber's rope. This way, you spread your 'risk' of links in the safety chain you can't fully trust (and avoid the aforementioned problem). This way, even if you make a mistake (or the anchor fails) while cleaning the anchor, you still have two extra points below you that might prevent a serious accident.
borissjroetskov if he was safe with his own gear, why didn’t he just remove the rope and thread it through instead of messing with the bight etc? I would have left it through the QuickDraw until I’d threaded the bight which would have left him on belay alll the way through
It looks like he was about to tie the bight above the anchors at 05:30. I wonder if tying the bight below the anchors was an oversight.
In the first technique, before he pulled the bight through the two chains, wasn't he only secured through the PAS without redundancy although he said that he was secured at two points?
It looks redundant from a bolt perspective but if the PAS rips, there would be no redundancy and he would fall until the next lower quickdraw.
Wouldn't it be better to leave the rope pulled through the two anchor quickdraws while pulling the bight through the anchor chains? Or is a PSA considered super safe that it doesn't need redundancy?
I am new to this so I'm just wondering.
why would you clip your bent gate to the chain? it should be the straight gate to the hangers or chain(hardwear) the bent gate is for your rope/ slings etc..safety reasons, right?
I still prefer retying the figure of 8, or a buterfly rather than a bight when lowering. Seems easier to loosen when you get back on the ground.
I wonder if I'm the first person to watch this who thought he was going to brush and polish the bolts
why do you not just connect the figure 8 knot with a carabiner at the end to be lowered. why tie in again? thanks
*Beginner question* : If you can lower down with the rope in the chains, why use an anchor at all? Why not use the chains to begin with? Is it to to prevent wear on the chains?
Thankful for the video!
Yes, if you were to belay off the chains regularly, the friction wears down, which is also the source of some debate over lowering vs repelling when cleaning. So especially when setting a route up for others to top rope on if they just used chains they'd wear down pretty quick. Also, if you didn't set up an anchor with draws, you'd have to untie from your rope to be able to run it through the chains...
@@__coleslaw__124 thank you!
As the bight knot I suggest to use a double bowline - as opposed to the overhand or figure-eight knot recommended in this video. After lowering it opens much more easily. This is in particular true after a difficult clean up of a overhanging or diagonal route.
I suggest using a knot you are not likely to blow...
How do you clean the route if you didnt make it to the top?
For option 1, I have always clipped back into my waist and crotch loop, instead of just the belay loop, just like I would tie the rope through both as well. I may just be old school with the redundancy. Any thoughts?
While that may indeed add redundancy, it also tri-loads the carabiner which can be dangerous.
At my gym you always clip carabineers in to the single loop
Does your belayer use their belay loop while your climbing? Every time you fall, their belay loop is taking way more load then a belay loop would take just lowering. So, if you trust a belay loop to catch your falls, pretty sure you can trust it during lowering.
Also, the belay loupe is double stitched, so it is as strong (22kn) as both hard points, or any dyneema sling you use to build an anchor.
The second time you tie a figure 8 on a bight, why not go for an overhand knot (EDK) instead?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think figure 8 on a bite is significantly better for the lowering than overhand on a bite. The overhand in theory destroys the rope a lot more and also is much harder to untie later, right? Its advantage is that it's faster to tie, but I'd rather spend the time for proper 8.
It doesn't matter. Do whatever way makes you feel better.
Great video and thank you. I’m newer to lead and anchor methods (boulder first 5 years) ; noticed when you were cleaning and clipping quikdraws back on your harness, the gate was facing out? Is the a best practice or why do you use that method? My habit has been to clip gate toward me. Thanks.
There is no best practice, just preference! Find what works best for you.
like said before there is no best practice...it is what suits u the best. I like it facing out.
What's mean forthis
Sorry, I'm very knew to Climbing, why do you need to clean top rope anchors? is it when you have finished your climb and you want to collect your equipment? sorry in advance.
Yes
Yes. When you lead a route you set up two quick draws at the anchors because the person coming behind you is top roping. We do not top rope directly on the anchors because it’s very bad for them and causes a lot of wear and unnecessary damage. So when the person behind you comes up they will use this system to remove your quick draws to return them to you.
Question. Why not attach the bite and carabiner through the two convention harness hoops instead of the belay loop (@2:50)? Surely the harness hoops have one more redundacy and its safer... Thanks guys ;)
The reason is because you generally never want to put a carabiner through your tie in points due to the inherent cross loading caused by the upper and lower tie in loops. It is one of those things that is probably going to be fine 99.9% of the time if you are just lowering off a route but it is better practice to just avoid cross loading a biner. Clipping into the belay loop is proper practice. If you consider that anytime you are on belay, you are solely relying upon your belayer's belay loop (belay devices are only clipped into the belay loop), you should feel better about that loop's strength. Personally, I clip that bite into my belay loop, untie, pull the sharp end of the rope through the chains, then retie into the sharp end. I then have the belayer take my weight on the tie in point, unclip and untie the bite from my belay loop and then lower. If you feel sketchy about lowering off the belay loop, you could use this method to just tie back in instead of lower on the bite knot clipped to the belay loop. The nice thing about the video's method is that it is much harder to screw up clipping a bite knot to your belay loop than it is to mess up retying the rope without your partner visually re-inspecting it before lowering.
If you don't have chains, can you thread the rope through the bolts themselves?
No, you will likely damage your rope as it runs through the sharp edges of the hangers (the metal loop that you clip into is called a hanger, the part that drills into the rock is the bolt) while weighted. People don't even recommend rappelling from hangers, let alone lowering off of them! There are some thicker hangers that are designed for rappelling but even then I wouldn't lower from them.
Question with respect: When you state you are on belay the entire time I feel like that isn't accurate since you have unclipped the original quickdraws. If you passed the bight through the chains and tied in *before* removing the original top rop draws you would still be on belay the entire time no?
Why not set up top rope on the permanent anchor? I assume some ethics, but would like to hear someone out
The quickdraw attached to the chainlink, should be clipped on the non active part of the chainlink. Serving as extra backup. Not the other way around as shown here. The rest seems legit.
At 6:00 shouldn't you pull your bight from the inside of the anchor
Trusting your life to a single carabiner as in method #1 isn't a great idea -- carabiners do break, especially if they've been stressed in the past, and this has caused real accidents. I'd always use two lockers with this method.
Even better, don't use non-lockers for toprope anchors or personal anchors. Not everyone follows this but "lockers only for life-critical single points of failure" is a good mantra IMO. (Especially for toprope anchors where you can't see from the ground if the rope has come unclipped.)
Is lowering on a overhand safe? I’ve always been told that a figure 8 is the best and safest knot to go with, not saying this is wrong, just curious.
It’s save for lowering someone down. Biggest difference is how hard it is to open the knot again after lowering down. The figure 8 is much easier to untie than the overhand.
@@polarfoxbrrr3910 thanks for the info!!
Isn't the wear on the fixed hardware bad?
Tyson Romero , yeah I hate it when I repel off the end of the rope and fall
I like to use soap and water.
Where did you get a locking quickdraw I can only find wire! Please comment back!
You probably have to make one. Buy two locking carabiners and a dogbone
You’ll have to make one yoursef
www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/locker-draw-what-is-it-why-carry-it
Why not rappel?
Wears down the bolts way less.
In most popular single pitch climbing areas isn't it accepted that this level of wear will happen to the anchors? A situation where it's worth checking local ethics?
I've always heard never use the rings to lower or TR off of. As it makes wear and wear leads to safety issues. Isn't a prusik and fireman belay safer? Prusik fireman is a redundant system. I could be wrong though. Just asking?
Dustin Easterling while rappelling does put lower wear on the fixed hardware, a very large amount of accidents come from people who don’t rappel correctly. Many guide organizations and crag maintainers suggest lowering through the chains or rings. As he said in the video, the chains/rings are relatively inexpensive and simple to replace so to prevent accidents you should lower. If you are 100% comfortable and experienced rappelling with the backups you mentioned then by all means go for it, but the average sport climber should lower. If there aren’t any chains on the anchor bolts or the chains/rings look unsafe, then just donate a carabiner to the anchor and lower from that. I keep some small wiregates on me just in case I come across rusted chains, $10 is better than risking a bad rappel. If you do a lot of lowers at your local crag you can also consider donating to the organization who maintains it to help with replacing the gear. Most are non profits and the donations are tax deductible. NEVER EVER TOP ROPE THROUGH THE FIXED ANCHOR GEAR.
@@giga898 rusted chains sound like a good way to destroy a rope. I'd always carry extra carabiners for that.
No-lowering is the old school artisanal, crag culture. Wear in steel chains is extremely slow (much more than for aluminum biners) and if the last link does start to wear down you can just cut it & start using the next one. If the entire chain's used, you can always replace it with a large quicklink but it's probably time to inspect the hanger and bolt anyway
Don't top rope through the anchors though
Sketch
2:45 what would be the reason not to tie a "figure eight" instued of a "overhand biteknot"?
easier to untie but takes more time
I see a couple of flaws here, or improvements, you might say.
1. Don't unclip at 2:20 just leave the rope clipped. You can still take a bite of rope and squeeze it trough the links. That way, you're always double safe.
2. At 5:40 instead of tying a knot below, take the slack and tie a knot on the piece of rope between your harness and the quickdraws. That way, one of your safety points is not the last quickdraws some meters below you, but your current anchor point.
I'm wondering, why these flaws are being taught on something, which is a standard procedure for decades. Please revise your videos. Stay safe!
I like your method and it definitely provides more layers of protection. But I would argue:
1. At 2:20, his system was already redundant with his two points of contact PAS. Unclipping the rope makes it easier to manage and less cluttered. I don' believe leaving it clipped truly provides any more protection.
2. At 5:40, I believe, if done your way, you run the risk of not having enough slack in the rope to retie your figure 8.
Overall, the method you suggested seems to lack efficiency. I believe simple is safe. Dale's process could not have been better.
I was taught to not untie and to feed a bite of rope through the links first, and I find it safer, since you always have redundancy until the cleaning is complete.
Fail:
2 or more pieces, minimum.
You don't unhook the line until another line/runner to the harness is attached.
+ the end of your figure 8 knot is too short. 8 " minimum.
But, I'm sure that AMGA covered all that.
Good luck k.
Why did you make an overhand and not a figure of 8? An overhand needs a much longer tail while it gets tight, a figure of 8 does not. When you pass bites of rope through the anchor it's obvious the rope tail will be long enough but I would never recommend an overhand. The only time I use the overhand is to join two ropes on alpine routes before abseiling and it is the only knot that never gets caught on cracks because it tends to slide with the knot turned upwards.
Topher Donehue says overhands are fine. www.amazon.com/Rock-Climbing-Mastering-Mountaineers-Outdoor/dp/1594858624/ref=asc_df_1594858624_nodl/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312067454590&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7243043579286981448&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9013085&hvtargid=pla-433046591202&psc=1
I thought getting lowered was putting too much wear on the anchor/chain link? Dirty rope acts as sand paper on the anchor.
Lowering is considered ok. Otherwise you would have to abseil EVERY time you top a route. Then there would be no wear and those anchors would last forever.
TopRoping on those fixed anchors is considered not okay, because of the wear. So, when TopRoping, use you own equipment to TopRope from.
As it was in this video. Obvioulsy he lead climbed the route and then built an anchor using 2 draws just to show us how it is done.
Depends on the crags! All the crags I visited encouraged the use of the chains for lowering and didn't care about top roping either, especially when it's crowded because it takes less time to get off the route when you don't have to clean it. First person climbs up tailing a secondary rope behind them. After clipping the anchors, threads the secondary rope, clips a figure eight bight to his belay loop and gets lowered on that rope while cleaning all the draws. Extremely quick and no need for anyone to climb back up to clean so they can just yank the rope and move on, next group moves in. Rinse repeat! many crags have a replacement schedule for fixed gear, every so many years they get changed no matter their condition. If they don't, it's likely not a crag or route where they expect lots of top ropers, who are mostly newer climbers anyway.
MotoAtheist I wish people weren’t such traditionalists in my area. That sounds fantastic, and I’d be more than happy to pay for new quick links every now and then.
Listen to what he said. The AMGA and the Alpine Club have stopped recommended rappelling whenever possible. The vast majority of all climbing deaths and serious injuries are at rappel transition. Always lower whenever possible. Rap rings and chains are cheap and easily replaceable. Your life is not.
@@zraybroske2416 Can you provide a more detailed citation to the source?
what if there's no chain ?
Then you have to rappel.
@@FourT6and22 how to set the ancor for rappeling if there's no chain ? what should i use and how ?
@@baaiiimmmm Worse case you *can* rap through the bolts, but make damn sure the edges are smooth. Generally, it's wise to rap through a few biners behind as an offering to the rock gods (they like them opposite and opposed) ...or webbing if you're cheap.
@@jimblake6150 i prefer leave my carabiner as an offering to the rock gods ^^
thank you so much !
If the anchor consists of two glue-in bolts (looks like two round rings directly into the rock), just rappel. If it's two expansion bolts with hangers, it's just weird and sketchy. You'll have to add bail biners. It "should" be fine to rappel directly into the hangers if the edges have been filed, but seriously, just leave some gear.
Just watched this and have one comment, you temporarily took yourself off belay when you unclipped from your draws before feeding the rope through the chains and reconnecting to your harmess.
Wouldn't something like this wear down the anchors/chains? I only ask because I thought that stuff was pretty expensive to replace.
Depends on the ethics of the area - you'll get split results to this question. You wouldn't want to top rope right off the chains, that's a lot of excess wear that is easily avoided. Lowering off the chains has been shown through statistics to be a much safer option than rappelling. I'd argue that exposing yourself to less risk is worth the wear and tear on the chains. The wear and tear is easily offset by donating to the access fund for the area.
It only wears the chains, which can be replaced by unscrewing the quick link on each bolts. 6 chain links aren't too expensive.
Assuming that someone will do that with reasonable frequency. In any case I would not feel safe using the chains.
americanalpineclub.org/resources-blog/2016/3/15/5ipkouk0id07cgc3dqks4fljnsgnx6
My local outdoor climbing area doesn't seem to have chains or rings connected to the bolt? These aren't top-rope routes, these are lead climbs. Is there a specific way to clean these types of routes or should I just avoid this climbing area completely?
I am currently thinking that whoever set up the bolts / routes in my climbing area was drunk at the time of doing so (for some routes the bolts on top aren't placed in a way that would allow any equalization. In these spots, one bolt is some 14 inches away from the ledge and the other is like 8 inches away from the ledge. Seriously, I think whoever bolted these routes was drunk).
I don't want to stop climbing, but this is the situation I am dealing with.
Any advice? Should I just buy some chains?
A few possibilities:
(1) You might be intended to walk off the top instead of lowering/rappelling, so the route is intended to be cleaned by a follower on toprope.
(2) The bolts might be Metolius rap hangers (now discontinued), which are extra thick and intended for rappel/lowering directly www.campsaver.com/metolius-rap-hanger.html
(3) If neither of the above is true, you might want to bring some cheap quick links to leave there to rappel/lower from, or chains if you want to invest in improving the area.
Watched this so many times and still don't understand why he takes the rope out of the original quickdraws but still leaves them attached while he threads the chains. Wouldn't you remove the first quickdraws right away as not to have too many thing confusing you? Or why not even just leave your rope running through them as Xtra-extra backup ? Even if the chain reactor is 110% safe wouldn't you teach to either remove directly or leave as security? Not just sitting there doing nothing as you detach and rethread
as soon as he clips his PAS and backs it up with a locking quickdraw he's more than safe. in order to lower off the chains you have to unclip and clean the original anchor and thread the rope through the chains. he passes a bight so he doesn't untie his original knot
In my personal opinion, and a lot of climbers I know, would not recommend this lowering method as it puts a lot of friction on the metal and wears down the chains and anchors, which can be replaced, but lowering is just speeding up that process that could drastically increase the life of the bolts and chains. Plus being lowered down could damage your rope if there are any burrs or sharp edges on the metal. The methods he shows are honestly not my favorite since if your are able to repel down using a static rope/fireman's belay on the anchors or chains it will save unneeded wear on the chains and the bolts.
Our local crag says to use them for lowering and top roping if it makes things quicker when it's a busy day. Chains are sacrificial at easy accessible crags. It's only the remote, difficult locations where you want to save them as long as possible.
It's common sense to check the surface before using a rope on it. Takes all of what.. 5 seconds to look at it and feel it. Local crags typically have lots of climbers so chains are constantly inspected. Some even change them yearly.
I’m not a climber I’m just a simple engineer, the longer the loose tail is after your knot the better your chances of survival are…..
Not really. In practice, excessively long tails can cause clutter and deadly mistakes, particularly in rappel systems.
I thought he was gonna clean something with a brush
to much in one anchor , youll ruin the strenth of the carabiner. its sitting on its side
Why overhand and not figure 8 in bite? It’s easier to undo
Christian Dawson simply a preference. Use what your comfortable with. Neither is safer or more dangerous than the other
You were not on belay the whole time. You came off of the belay right before you sent the loops of your rope through the ends of the chains
Sorry can you explain a bit more for me? He was on his anchor the whole time so i don’t understand the problem.
Great video, but a fairly sloppy (read scary) Figure 8 at 6:35...
Which one? The one going to his harness is perfectly fine. The bottom one was just an 8 on a bight to hold the rope temporarily, it doesn't need to be tidy.
figure eight knot should stick more and ideally add a safety knot
Yeah, that was quite frankly frightening. What was he thinking...
it is so wrong! On the second version if there is a malfunction you can fall! you should do the knot with the rope just after the eight and before the quick draw. So if you fall it cant go through and you are still attached at the top. Then you release the eight and pass it through the chain to redo it again.
While there are some nice techinques on display here I do have a couple of concerns. Being lowered is not safer than rapping with an autoblock and fireman's break. You kick a rock off on the way down and it beans your belayer, you're toast. Using a locker is no great hassle. Using a non locking quick draws while cleaning an anchor? Nope, not for me. I'm not going to do that, you can, I'm not. He even has the gates facing each other and touching. His rationale being "lots of people out there do it", well that's not a good reason. Lots of people drink and drive, not all die, but all are increasing their risk unnecessarily.
So you're an AMGA certified Instructor?
Please would one of you endorse the benefits of a traditional diet?
We can't do this in Squamish, these chains would get worn-out from over use.
Danny Q I climb in a high traffic area too, and just cary climbing grade stainless steel quicklinks and a small spanner. When I make it to the top I can inspect the chain/quicklinks and replace any worn ones with my new ones. I figure it's my contribution to a route that I otherwise use for free. It also serves well on some newer or more remote routes where the anchor is just two bolts without a chain or quicklinks, I just leave one on each bolt for the next climbers to use
walatalalaw that's nice of you.
Can you give any info on the necessary stuff to do this? I personally think this method is great as I'd rather not worry about rappelling down but I also don't want to not take care of the community fixed hardware.
Tyler Nichols basically we only use the fixed anchors for rappelling. If we top rope, we put in our own gear and the last person climbing needs clean the gear.