Rivian’s EV Route Planner Might Mislead You! Why Is A Better Route Planner Not Integrated Yet?
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- Опубліковано 6 лип 2024
- Episode 406: Join Francie and Jordan as they chat about where Rivian's EV Route Planning software and functionality does well and does poorly - including misleading you by prioritizing the Rivian Adventure Network to a fault. Where is A Better Route Planner software in Rivian's native software you ask? We're not sure when we'll see that. Plug in for the details.
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Sorry guys but we're not seeing this at all in our R1T DM Max, either on our recent 4,500 mile road trip to Texas and back, or just right now with the current software version route planning to Ft. Collins, is there maybe something weird about your press vehicle? - ua-cam.com/video/xkURTE6vVG4/v-deo.html
I doubt they are prioritizing RAN locations specifically, rather they are prioritizing high quality chargers of which RAN is traditionally higher than the rest. It's almost like they need to load balance to avoid sending too much traffic to the same places.
Yup. Wassym clearly explains to Kyle how the rating system was more than six months gathering data in silence to build the system. At that point there were fewer Rivians. This anecdote is not a trend, yet. Hopefully your experience will push Rivian to see what this can lead to and adjust. How long did it take before Tesla adjusted routing based on charging station fill rate? It took a while. Rivian can hopefully benefit from that and get there faster.
75% of my trips are road trips. I don’t even use just one mapping program (Apple maps and Google are both always up) because there are always hiccups with algorithms. So, it can get better in the individual brands, it’s just not a great plan to trust them alone.
There also needs to be education: turn on only three lightning or adjust minimum speed to 50 or 100kw chargers on road trips. An EV is a tool. Just like any tool, learn the basics.
Wife and I went to the Rivian event in Normal a few months ago. We have an R1T Dual Motor with Max pack. We relied on the Rivian software to get us there and back. Didn't need to stop going there but decided to stop in Bloomington for our return. Unfortunately, it routed other R1 drivers to the same spot, so we ended up waiting over an hour to charge up. This was in a Walmart parking lot so of course one of the chargers was down, which didn't help. We set the destination for home (St. Louis area). Our SOC was 80%, it still added a charge stop even though we had enough range to get home. I believe our SOC was going to be under 20% upon arrival. I could delete the extra stop, but it would keep wanting to add it back in. After driving awhile, it re-calculated we would arrive with more than 20% SOC so at that point I was able to remove the extra stop without it trying to add it back on the route. We haven't done enough road tripping yet to feel comfortable letting the SOC get below 20% before stopping to charge. I think most of that is due to our fear that the place we stop to charge won't be available when we get there, and we would need to find something else in range.
If only you could fill up the 7 seater SUV with 7 people and see what is the most enjoyable. Those cannonball runs with no a/c in 106° heat outside would lead to divorces in any real family.
Haha. We should add a min of 20% Soc as I presume most families, like myself, are more conversative w the kids in the car in case anything were to happen and want to make sure we had enough range to handle whatever unforeseen emergency.
Hey Francie! Rivian acquiring ABRP seems to be as slow an integration as Google acquiring Waze. Seems like they are both walking that line between data sharing and independence.
I'd love to see live charger-in-use data that is accurate.
I love the constructive criticism you provide, and I believe Rivian listens to you and others for update ideas.
A frustrating item for me is while you're actually plugged in and charging. Unlike Tesla, the planner won't show negative percentages or miles at your destination. It's just a red battery. It makes it hard to manually gauge how much longer you need to stay. The mileage at destination also doesn't update frequently enough.
I've been happy with ABRP. Was genuinely surprised to see Rivian did not give battery percentage. Side note, my experience roadtripping a 2024 id4 with route planning and plug and charge at EA stations has been great.
Nice Constructive feedback!
The SOC% on arrival is such a no-Brainer improvement. The only surprising thing is that Wassym & his team (who seem to be awesome others) either can’t or won’t do this. I think it’s “won’t” but it’s not clear what is higher priority for what seems like a pretty easy change.
Just yesterday I completed an 8000 mile road trip around US and Canada in Model Y and I used both tesla build in route planning and ABRP and I have to say both route planners have a lot they could improve on. Tesla biggest problem was that there is no way to see or add 3rd party chargers which on couple of occasions saved me a lot of time and stress. ABRP on the other hand has so many settings that if you don't have them tuned just right will also be way off in its planning. But both of them suffered from general poor estimation of the arrival SOC at the next charger and on few occasions they were off by over 20% which can leave you stranded in places like Wyoming or northern Michigan. So it sounds like all system have lot of work left on them before someone new to EV could comfortably rely on. Tesla might be ahead of competition but not by much and still very far from perfect
Tesla is still much better than Rivian, trust us!
I had this same problem happen to me a few months ago when I went to Death Valley. On my way to and the way back to the Baker EA station, the Rivian nav both ways wanted me to go to the Las Vegas RAN. Then to some other back road and charge at a level two charger to continue on to Death Valley. And then the same to get back to the EA stations. No matter how far I traveled down the road I was taking to get to Death Valley.
I’ve traveled 6k miles in 3 months on several cross country road trips. The easy solution is to use ABRP to plan the overall trip, then use RIVIAN nav to get from SC to SC. If you want to do long road trips, you better buy the A2Z NACS adapter and try to use Tesla SCs exclusively. Rivian displays mostly accurate availability info about Tesla SCs. You can program ABRP to prefer only Tesla SCs when routing the trip. The Rivian nav works just fine if you want to add in a Starbucks as an interim stop while you’re driving your route. If you must use EA, EV connect, and/or Chargepoint, then download the Apps for each and use them to verify availability before deciding to route to it. Rivian cannot read the Charger availability of any but Tesla.
Always appreciate your input. We just traveled from Phoenix to Seattle in our R1T while towing a 25’ Airstream. While we saw some minor quirks while route planning, overall the Rivian planning was great and we almost always arrived with the planned miles at the next charger. Maybe just wishful thinking on my part but it felt that the Rivian took in to account elevation changes. Just our experience.
Another issue is the car doesn't remember route plan settings. When you tell it 10% arrival or something, the next time you plan a route they have all reset like to 20%. 20% in my max pack is sixty miles. If I can cut one 30-60 minute stop on a long trip, I'll take it.
In the app there's no way to really plan a trip ahead of time. Let's say tomorrow I'm driving to San francisco and I want to get an idea of the stops. My battery is at 30% so it starts some crazy stop plan I'm not going to use tomorrow morning when my battery is full.
I'm also not confident that it can go EPA 380 miles even at normal freeway speeds. Instead I have to do a bunch mental math of miles per kWh times 140kw or on the road 1% could be about 4 miles but not really. Basically I just drive, and along the route I guesstimate how far I can/want to go and just use the map to zoom around and find a station when electrons start to fade when I know my reserve will be an issue. I don't feel the map algorithm is smart enough so I don't rely on it. I'm driving like the average scuba diver who straps a tank to their back, hops in and comes up when they get low. Instead I should be doing gas management calculations like a technical scuba diver: I breath 10 liters per minute per atmosphere and have 4800 liters of gas with me. What's my min gas to my next source of breathing gas? You can't ask this of a basic diver or driver.
22:43 I drive between Denver and Fort Collins nearly 2-4 times a week for work. Every single time, instead of routing to 2 Tesla Superchargers, or Chargepoint along the route on I-25 (Thornton/Lowe’s and Johnstown/Buckeye’s), Rivian will route me to the RAN DC charger in Broomfield, CO adding 30 mins to the trip. Excluding Rivian from the selected preferred networks fixed this issue.
I just planned a trip on the Rivian app from Loveland CO to St. George UT. I set the arrival percent charge to 10%. I selected Rivian EA and Tesla with adapter for stations. it said 60 miles at Tesla in Edwards. 100miles at Tesla in Rifle. 74 miles at green River EA. 98 miles at Tesla in Richfield. 67 miles at St. George. We like to stop at St. George because there is a restaurant on top of a mesa with a great view.
I have a GV-60. So I tend to use ABRP or Chargeway to plan the route, Waze for most of the driving guidance, but then I’m forced into the Genesis route planner to trigger preconditioning.
I want separate settings for min SOC at chargers along the way, and SOC at final destination. I really want to be able to weight all SC as being only 100KW (because for me they are) which is a benefit of Chargeway right now.
(For those that don’t know, with 800v cars, tesla chargers are “a bit better than L2”, because they top out at 500v and the car has to step up the voltage, which limits the max KW rate)
Built in route planning should NOT be compatible with out of spec style "run it to zero" style road tripping.
I have 44k mi in a Rivian and this is definitely a problem. Not only does it like to pick Rivian chargers and reverse your progress if it thinks you cannot make it to a DCFC, but it also HATES to arrive at a DCFC with a low SOC even when you've selected a super low arrival SOC. On multiple road trips it will want me to DCFC from 60%-90% instead of getting to a DCFC at 20% which is further down the road...even when arrival SOC is set low. Route planning is one of the worst features of the Rivian. Otherwise it's a mostly fantastic experience.
Yay, another Fancie and Jordan podcast.
Thank You Francie for All that you are doing for our Planet Earth.... Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. Namaste
🙏🏻 😊 ✌ ☮ ❤
I have used RAN stations and they have had maybe one other car. So didn't relize they shared 300 kW in three dispensers. When they open up the chargers, I will avoid if it looks like they are busy.
Go to Florida, especially during holiday times and you will see them all full, even the Tesla stations.
Can you not disable L2 chargers in the route planner? That's what I do when route planning with ABRP.
pretty sure they allow you to adjust minimum charge % on arrival now.
Did you have the latest update on the Rivian software. I think you do by the way the throttle is formated in the video.
I think the race to Vegas showed that Tesla's biggest advantage was it's route planning, and not just the Supercharger system. It's not only about who has the fastest charging and best range, but more about your navigation system and the charging infrastructure. The 3 non-Teslas in this race had significant route planning problems.
When I got my R1T the navigation was terrible. It has been improving but it still seems to be in a beta stage. I had problems with strange routs an it wouldn't let me delete the stop. I ended up redoing the trip. Hopefully they will fix on the next update.
FWIW - the routing issue appears to be a bug in the lastest software. I've been testing with my R1T and a friend's R1S. It occurs sporadically and is then persistent for awhile. Other times it works perfect. I'm not sure if Rivian is aware of it.
Does this video have any spoilers for the return trip to Vegas? If it does, you need to state that.
Not everyone will agree with me on this one, but I think that there should never be shared charging for what happened to you specifically. And I also think that what ever is the highest power charger you can buy, is what every charger at the station is. So then you never have to worry about showing up to a station and be stuck with a slower charging station because someone with a bolt charging on a faster charger. They would all the fastest chargers you can get...
I am 100% on board with Jordan that the Rivian R3 (especially the R3X) is the ideal vehicle. Will likely replace my Bolt when it reaches 200k miles. Hopefully with the VW/Rivian join venture they will reconsider including CarPlay by then.
I have ABRP, but their data been off. Like listening places that are not public, have yet to open, or is no longer there. Plug share has save me from a bad road trip a few times.
You can plan in the Rivian app and transfer to the R1T. .
I just tried planning a trip that went by two RANS and it didn't suggest them. Did they just see your video? :)
Constructive criticism
ABRP get's information that is not avaialbe on the truck screens or ap. It has battery voltage for instance.
I wish ABRP would update their cars database more quickly. Neither the new Mini Electrics nor the BMW sister car the iX2 are yet available despite being on sale for 4 months now in Europe. It’s frustrating to send requests for absolutely no response from ABRP. I’m sure that there are other new to market cars missing too.
Could y’all do a video/provide more information on how to maximize the charging experience. I’ve noticed in several videos y’all mentioning let’s say a Rivian charging at a Tesla supercharger but only getting maybe 200kW max or Kyle complaining about the VW ID4 using the faster charger but being pointless because of it’s electric architecture. Or also mentioned in the Fort Collins-Vegas video of having one of the vehicles use the 150kW to charge the battery faster because it wouldn’t heat up the battery as much. I just started thinking about getting an EV and more recently getting an R1S. So, ya, more info on charging and battery chemistry and charging would be appreciated
The Rivian’s max charing speed is 220KW. Tesla chargers work the best but you need a 3rd party adapter. I can get somewhere around 210-220 kw if my state of charge is low when I first start charging. I have had some experiences at Electrify AMERICAS where the 300 kw Charger was dog slow, then I started charging much faster on the 150 KW. Bottom line: avoid everything but Tesla for chargers if you can, then you’ll be fine.
I'll give the all time best routing error reward to Garmin. Which told me once to continue for 700 miles and then make the first legal u-turn.
"Homey don't think so!"
In terms of energy out of a battery vs state of charge. They are not the same. The voltage goes down as the battery discharges. So if the same current is flowing at the start and end of SOC you will get more power at the start. So SOC if very useful but it's not th same as the number of kW-hrs in the battery. Nice video.
State of charge is not intended to measure Coulombs. It's intended to measure energy. If it's non linear when drawing constant power then it should be improved.
@@pfunk768 State of charge is measured in Amp-hrs. What you want is state of energy which is in kw-hrs.
Well as a Model 3 owner here, I wouldn't mind paying a subscription for say a "Travel Pack" of competing charging networks to show up on my cars navigation.
When it comes to code changes to a sophisticated system THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A TRIVIAL CHANGE! Make a change introduce a side effect.
Love my Rivian, but the route planner is the one thing that I’ve found to be consistently bad. Beyond what’s mentioned here about charging locations, the planning seems to consistently choose routes that take longer (vs Google). Course correcting from those is a pain in the UX so providing more alternate options that the user can select from, or dragging and dropping the route along the screen is a must.
It has to select longer routes in order to ensure it is making the needed charging stops. So yeah, am I hour trip takes 10 hours.
ABRP is far from perfect. I've been using it with an OBD Link CX in my e-Golf and the reference consumption is just getting worse and worse compared to reality. I've just had to turn off the automatic calculation based on driving for this or it will assume 30-50Wh/km higher consumption than what I actually get.
It is terrible with tunnels that take more than a minute to drive though, and seem to get confused on elevation changes and calculating energy cost to climb and energy gained during decent.
The real time weather is just completely wrong at times. Like ABRP saying its 12C and raining at my local charger when its 25C and sunny.
These things may just be an e-Golf profiling issue, but still...
Does Tesla and Rivian charge more money for non-Teslas and non-Rivian at their supercharger sites?
Tesla, Yes or you pay a monthly subscription fee to buy down the rate to standard Tesla rates. I don’t know if the Fee is used as a prepaid credit ( use or lose) to access the normal tesla rate.
No clue with Rivian.
Rivian network is not opened to others.
For Rivian (The current topic): Tesla subscription is $12.99/mo for typically $0.36 per kWh. Without the monthly subscription it costs >$0.50 per kWh.
My Rivian insists on sending me to the back of someone's house If I ask to navigate to the local Mall cinema. I love my Rivian but the route planner is not perfect.
Jordan your feedback on the level II route planning seems to be unfounded and exaggerated. Just like Tesla you can select speed preferences, network preferences in addition to adapters needed for tesla compatible superchargers via the in dash nav route planning settings. In addition you can hide chargers that are in use or full, poor charge score etc via the app. I planned the same route from Las Vegas to Fort Collins w 4 Leve III charge stops no problem. Yea ABRP is better but Rivian route planning isn’t bad. It’s prudent for anyone to check charger availability when otw via EA app (since they’re known to fill up) and or plugshare for any watch outs and have a back up plan if necessary. It’s one of the joys of adventuring lol
“Constructive” is the word you’re looking for.
What is it Francie? Kyle, help!
Rivian should really get Android automotive in their cars, or at least Android Auto integration
A Better Route Planner might mislead you as well, as it has a real problem with ghost chargers.
Every time you show a map of the fast chargers across the US, Duluth shows up as a location. Soooo frustrating you keep ignoring to address this. Duluth Does Not Have A Fast DC Charger! Zef Energy took it out as they don’t maintain their stuff. You’re SOL trying to drive up the North Shore except for a couple level 2 chargers. Grand Maraise and Grand Portage as well Do Not Have Fast Chargers. Zef Energy again does not maintain their stuff. You have to reserve a campsite and charge overnight on an RV outlet. Ford and GM dealerships on the map also do not let the public charge there period.
In case Rivian is reading these comments, just taking the opportunity to let them know I would absolutely buy their vehicle, if/when it has Android Auto/Apple CarPlay. If they never add it I'll never buy one.
i route plan in my own brain. Adventurers need to know where they are at all the time. go where you want to, not where a car tells you too.
EA with 6 stalls if all are working 😂 vs Tesla with 10 to 15 not full for a reason.
Teslaschas always prioritized get your car to 80% and get out plus the uptime difference.
Some of your Rivian statements are off base, still setting for charging preference would not send you two a level 2 same as Tesla...
When Jordan said MB route planner was “clunky” at the beginning, I planned to disagree, but at the end he appeared to praise it. As an EQS 580 owner for over a year, I’m very satisfied with its route planning and charger locations. But, if there was more than one charging stop, I would also use ABRP.
Until Tesla SCs are compatible with MB, I prefer to road trip in a Tesla over MB.
Constructive Criticism ;)
Funny - I’ve always found ABRP to be less than helpful, in fact today the app doesn’t know about our ‘23 Mme
One example is taking us to a DCFC 15-20 min from highway - when other options existed closer to route!
And its interface is terrible
On a recent 240mi trip, our Ford MME managed to confuse the distance to the nearest DCFC with the remaining charge. The two were actually reversed on the display in front of the driver. The car totally freaked out; red visual warnings and audio about unable to get anywhere. Rebooted the Nav and it fixed itself. We had 53mi range with nearest charger off-route at 13mi and on-route at 33mi.
No other car mfg will ever match Tesla's closed ecosystem. Just because you can now charge at a Supercharger does not mean Tesla is sharing which units are working, which are busy, how many Teslas are on their way there, or what the likely charge rate will be. Not that other companies would know what to do with such data.
Truthfully I only need to use route planning a half dozen times a year.
You are misrepresenting the purpose of the EPA range estimate. As you know range varies greatly with driving conditions. You shouldn’t expect to achieve the same range as EPA unless you follow the same test conditions. In the real world range can be more, less or the same as EPA. The best use of the EPA estimate is as a comparison between vehicles.
BTW the Rivian Adventure Network site in Montrose CO is usually empty and always seems to work. In Grand Junction you had the option to use the Superchargers directly adjacent to the Rivian chargers. Why wait? Bottom line is that we should still use our brains.
P.S. Not a Rivian owner.
It’s not integrated because for A Better Route Planner to work well requires a lot more input then just where you wanna go.
So I don’t know why we are trying to act like it’s even designed to be built directly into a car.
It’s designed to a a on computer site that you plug things into for 10-20 minutes before your trip to get an idea of what your trip will be like, what options you have, what you can do along the way, etc.
Then if you prefer the route you designed in A Better Route Planner you can manually put that in. If you don’t care you just let the car decide
But TLDR, A Better Route Planner is not designed to be used as a in car route planner. It’s a pre trip planner not a on trip planner
And the argument they should just give state of charge on arrival instead of miles when the miles was state of charge x4 means even just giving the percent would be just as off as giving miles so that argument was pointless
And enough with the “arrive at 1%” bs! Most wanna arrive at their last stop at 20-40% so they can still use the car once there. This 1% arrival that out of spec does is so unrealistic
I used abrp in my car for a 4000 mile road trip. It was amazing, especially with it's ability to link to my cars real time battery metrics using a Bluetooth obd dongle and dynamically adjust planning based off real time weather too.
In addition you need a buffer in case of detours due to traffic accidents and road closures..
Estimating 1% SOC on arrival is stupid.
Agree most people won’t do the 1% arrival but I aim at 5% also using ABRP which is awesome in my opinion. ABRP is what the EV route planning should be like, they allow you set only the basic data but also allows more specific settings if you want, and they should learn from your driving. The return drive from Vegas will be interesting and if the EV9 is anything like the EV6 it will be really bad.
ABRP works best when it has data on the vehicle's SoC, realtime consumption, live weather etc. With those, it ought to be the ideal tool for live navigation. The only things that have let it down in my experience are the sometimes eccentric routing logic (especially its poor handling of road closures), and the very unintuitive user interface. Those can be fixed with a little development resource.
I have never used ABRP on a computer. I have a $10 Veepeak Bluetooth OBD2 that pairs with the ABRP app in android auto and gives me all the same data on my Chevy Bolt that a Tesla would get. Current state of charge, where am I going, what is the weather, elevation, condition of the battery and it plans the trip. The arrival percentage updates as you drive and will make changes to the plan as necessary