About Aegon: I like how he is portraeyd. In many shows rapist are portrieyd as sadisric monsters. Aegon meanwhilw probaply didn't even relaized what he's done. When Alicon confronts him he's like "It was just a bit of fun. Why you so upset." I dunno it feels more realistic. I think the real issue is that his victim is of no importance. How did it afect her life, how does she heal and move foward in life. We see her ocasonily as an extra in the background. But her rape wasn't about her. It was to characterize Aegon. I think that's why it feel so unbalanced.
Also, Alicent effectively forced moon tea down Dyana's neck and banished her from the castle; she made the entire thing go away for Aegon. So in essence there's no meaningful way for any of that to be addressed, 'cos the few people that are even aware _ain't talkin'._ I've seen people speak to the 'poetic justice' they feel was served him though, both in that after his accident he certainly won't be able to do that to any other women, and that he no longer has a male heir either. 😶
well yes but also no cause the books exist and are what matter and dany is important to the books. targs having dreams and visions of what is probably dany isn't new to the lore all roads lead to dany
@@Mari-tc4gw yea but the problem is there trying to hint at Dany in the show but it's completely pointless because of what ultimately happened to her in season 8 if not for that season it wouldn't be a problem.
I’m disappointed how Helena’s grief felt like such an afterthought to portray. Especially in a season with so much focus on the arcs for the other male characters at the Red Keep(Aemond, Aegon, Deamon). Looking back her baby’s death feels more like shock value than anything that impacts the character because we don’t focus more on showing her emotional impact from a decision instead of her just talking about how she is sad.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 it’s not even the green sight addition I dislike but how they do nothing with it. Like a mother who realizes in hindsight that she foresaw the death of her child and maybe could’ve prevented it? The idea of her seeing and getting lost in visions after that mistake and seeing constant signs that point to all those she cares for dying. Realizing she can do nothing to prevent it as each vision is made true. Like the Greeks are the blueprint for “prophecy tragedy” stories but they just…aren’t doing much with her. If you’re going to add this why not explore it more. Replacing the Dameon dreaming with some Helena dreaming scenes could’ve been great television
Super annoyed at the Alicent/Rhaenyra scene because i was defending choices made with respect to Team Green thinking it was complex characterisation. It wasn't - it was just shoddy and inconsistent writing. Alicent isnt Cersei yes but if they wanted her to be willing to sacrifice her sons to save her daughter they needed to establish that characterisation starting back in S1 and also do more work about her shock and horror at Lucerys' death and her becoming disenchanted with Aemond. They didnt so it feels like it came out of left field.
The problem with Aegon is that most of the bad stuff he’s implied to have done to women are told by people who weren’t even around him or had a bias against him as the one who tells us about his SA is Rhaenyras own court jester who wasn’t even in the city when he said it happened. They also added stuff like him going to child fighting pits which was just crazy cause it’s said he went to rat fighting pits. The problem with his character ultimately is they gave us everything bad that he’s implied to have done but not other characters like Rhaenyra and I don’t think the show thought of this at the time and just how strong a hatred is 4 what he did as 🍇 in some peoples minds is worse than murder.
THIS. In Princess and The Queen, another historical account by “author” (Archmaester Glydyan) of Fire and Blood, there was no stories from Mushroom at all. Also Mushroom as a court jester is illiterate. The person who wrote his accounts for him even “failed to sign”. In legal documents, those statements would already be disregarded completely. So yeah they write in the show all the bad things about Aegon II supposedly but any negative account of Rhaenyra, even Alicent apparently, is propaganda
I just don’t think they needed to paint it like both sides are equal in any way. The greens are obviously the villains and by trying to paint them as sympathetic they’ve had to make some of their bad actions just accidents and incompetence and in order to make the blacks look better is more accidents. Villains and Protagonists both do good and evil things! Like making everyone stupid and accident prone doesn’t help your story… like it’s okay to like a bad character because it’s not real. They could’ve just let Aemond kill Luke on purpose and that would be an actual villain move but now it’s an accident and just pathetic that the war started on a lie. Like why give Aemond that cushion if they were then going to have him burn his own brother and threaten the life of his own sister. Like why even change the story to make it an accident to kill someone he supposedly hated
You can whine about aegon all you want but to pretend that they haven't done the same to anyone else is insane or are you just going to forget about rhenyrea having sex with Cole and going out with daemon wasn't also a rumor in the book? Or daemon killing his wife even tho he was still fighting in the step stones when it happened? .
@@thatoneblackdude3333 Idk why your thinking this is a team post and your one of the crazy ones in this fandom who think it is like im not on either team cause there both psypaths who think there chosen by gods and begin wars cause they wanna sit on a pointy chair so imma stop u before u before u go crazy 😂
@@OnlineSafetyQ if your not on either side why are you whining about aegon as if he's the only victim of this? They do that for plenty of characters in the show, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of people constantly going on about aegon as of rhenyrea and daemon also weren't negatively effected by story changes.
as soon as Alicent asked Rhanerya to run off with her i knew it was over. They write them like 15 year old girls as if they haven't killed each other off springs they should hate each other not want to run off happily ever after.
I felt the episode was underwhelming, but I couldn't put my finger on why. This discussion helped to point out the weak aspects of the finale. I want to add that there are interesting points in the episode. The UA-cam creator GrayArea has an interesting perspective on the episode. Your tuxedo cat 16:30 is so cute!
The impact of the Writer’s Strike and the episode count shrinking from 10 to 8 could be felt throughout the season but this episode specifically. I think maybe if they had two more episodes we would have gotten something more conclusive.
GRRM has a blog post where he said the drafts for the season two script went through about 4-5 rounds of drafts, months before the season started filming. I don’t think it was the strikes so much as HBO cutting the budget. They could have only made some edits on set, not changed whole plot points with the writing. But in case of budget issues, Ryan Condal et al really should have just allocated their time better and actually written well, idk how this got through so many rounds of editing and HBO executives seeing it
You guys nailed it. Great podcast. I agree with pretty much all of your points. I will say that HBO is indeed using HOTD to prop up GOT’s ending by shoehorning in the prophecy and dagger. They are trying to make it make sense. In the pilot episode Viserys tells Rhaenyra that a Targ must be in charge still in order to unite the kingdom to fight against the cold. That’s specific wording and that’s exactly what Jon did. He didn’t kill the NK 1v1 but he still defeated him. If it wasn’t for Jon rallying all those armies to fight at WF then the White Walkers would have swept through Westeros. So according to Viserys’ version that would mean that the prophecy will be fulfilled and it’s Jon. The dagger was tied in to give it purpose with Arya. Meaning that it wasn’t Arya that was relevant in the killing of the NK. It was the dagger. She was just wielding it. Dany was shown in the vision because she’s still important and she resurrects dragons. Also they probably didn’t want to spoil new GOT viewers just in case…there are some out there that haven’t watched GOT but watch HOTD.
I think Alicent's mindset is this: I have sacrificed my entire life at the altar of duty and service to the realm and it got me NOTHING. The "game of thrones" has ruined her life and even if she doubles-down to win this war, what's the price not only for herself but the tens of thousands who will die fighting to put either Aegon or Rhaenyra on the throne? When Helaena said "I was happier before I became Queen" I think that really hit for Alicent because the same applied to her. The pursuit of and service to power ruined her life. There's a really beautiful quote from Jaime in A Storm of Swords that to me captures the trajectory of Alicent's thoughts, Jaime says "I've lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war" Alicent doesn't want to win cause the cost of winning is too high (she's no moral angel but she's never displayed a capacity for enjoying violence or cruelty or mass barbarity against the smallfolk or really anyone). In fact the whole reason she dived into this game was because she thought her children's lives were in danger but now Aegon is crippled, her grandson is dead, Otto is gods knows where, her brother may die under dragon fire and Aemond is a cruel and violent prince. I don't think her aversion to playing the game is due to her being a woman and therefore being repulsed by violence - I think more than anyone in the story now, she realises the futility of it all. So Alicent's choice is on the one hand very selfish (sacrificing her sons) but also incredibly selfless for someone in her class position: she would rather sacrifice her family and let Rhaenyra win if it means stopping potentially tens of thousands dying (whose blood would be partly on her hands) for some stupid iron chair. Characters in Westeros, especially the nobility, are stuck in a cycle of constantly struggling for power and losing not only their loved ones but their own sense of humanity for the sake of lands, titles, wealth, status and safety. I think Alicent is trying to break out of this cause she sees that ultimately, it's all so damn pointless (after the Dance, there's Blackfyre rebellions and then Robert's Rebellion and then the War of the 5 Kings).
I am not sure I agree with this. I thought the final scene was just terrible and completely out of character for Alicent. That she would agree to Rhaenyra killing Aegon after all the regret she felt about being a bad mother to him and being the catalyst for him going to Rook's Rest! And what is this "a son for a son"? Did both of them forget that Jaehaerys was beheaded to avenge Lucerys? I don't think Alicent's selfishness has any redeeming feature. She set everything in motion, and now when she is no longer in a position of power, she wants to wash her hands off the mess that she helped create and she is offering up her son (a son whom she forced on the throne) to do so. What's worse, she told Rhaenyra about Aemond's and Cole's plans. She doomed everyone in her family -- her sons, her brother, her lover, her Hightower kin, so that she can bow out! She realised the futility because she was no longer a player on the board. And her plan for ending the war is silly -- she MUST know that by now, seeing what she has seen this season. Does she really think that Aemond will give up because he is outnumbered? That he would not destroy and burn everything he can rather than let Rhaenyra sit the throne? I can understand her desire for peace for herself and her daughter, but I do not buy for a minute that she would give up Aegon to achieve this. In fact, if instead of going to Rhaenyra, Alicent had spent more time with Aegon and if she had asked him to leave and escape, chances are he would have agreed. She could have escaped with Helaena, Aegon, and her remaining grandchild. But the writers wanted Alicent to have a final scene with Rhaenyra -- and all for what? Next season, Rhaenyra is going to find that Aegon is not at King's Landing, so this is a non-consequential deal from a story-telling perspective. I think the writers wanted to do a mirror scene from episode 3 and wanted to play into two women pitted against each other. It only serves to draw superficial parallel between Rhaenyra and Alicent but in reality, makes Alicent one of the worst characters on the show.
@@joiedevivre55 Why do we NOT consider it selfish for these nobles to wage war in the name of their families (a couple dozen of people at most) knowing that it will come at the cost of the smallfolk? Why are the lives of Aegon or Aemond more important than the realm's peace? I really think Alicent is seeing a bigger picture and making a selfish choice that's very liberating for her character AND in her mind, could end a war with dragons that would devastate the kingdoms. I think it's okay to not like the final scene obviously, I enjoyed it and was really surprised by Alicen't revelations. Which I think are thematically resonant with HOTD/early GOT and ASOIAF: the pursuit of power destroys people, the submission to duty and service of family can be suffocating and war is often a pointless and destructive endeavour waged by selfish people. It took Alicent more than 20 years to realise this and she's one of the few characters in this universe to actually do something bold about it. Where she goes from here as a character idk though. And according to all that Alicent knows, her plan is a good one, she hasn't read F&B like you and I. As far as Alicent is aware, Kings Landing will be surrounded by several dragons, Vhagar will be outmatched and Aemond likely killed or captured or sent to the wall even. She isn't aware of Aegon's plan to leave. So from her POV, this is a good and almost bloodless way to ensure peace is achieved.
@@andilezulu292 "Why do we NOT consider it selfish for these nobles to wage war in the name of their families (a couple dozen of people at most) knowing that it will come at the cost of the smallfolk? Why are the lives of Aegon or Aemond more important than the realm's peace?" You will get no quarrel from me on this :) However, Alicent's motives are not about seeing the larger picture and making the ultimate sacrifice -- she says she wants to be done with all the plotting and schemeing and that she has found her path -- her reasons are selfish and pertain to herself and what she wants. Besides, the show hasn't laid any groundwork for her to make the decision to betray her family and her offer up her son for the greater good. What we do see, instead, is Alicent losing power at the council, feeling genuine remorse over Aegon, and get attacked by small folk. Her reason for going away to Kingswood is that she feels unappreciated by the council, the realm and her family for all the "sacrifices" she thinks she has made. It's her loss of power and thwarted ambition more than any concern for small folks that leads her to renounce power in such a dramatic fashion. She is cloaking it with 'this is what I want' and 'ending the needless war' but it's the classic fox and sour grapes, if you think about. The real question is would she have invited Rhaenyra to take the throne and served up Aegon as the necessary sacrifice if she still had her seat at the council and if Rhaenyra hadn't found new dragon riders. Somehow I doubt it. As for her plan, it is naive beyond belief and not thought through at all. She foolishly hoped she could escape with Aegon and Helaena; Rhaenyra had to remind her that she would have to publicly execute Aegon. Forget Aemond's wrath for a moment, what makes her think the very council that refused to name her regent because she is a woman would suddenly accept Helaena's authority and allow her to command the guards to open the gates for Rhaenyra? She doesn't need to read the books to know her plan is doomed, she only needs to think about it for more than a minute. I think you are being too generous in your interpretation of Alicent's decision :)
@@joiedevivre55 I think her motivations are a mix of the personal (losing power, feeling alienated etc) AND seeing a bigger picture. Throughout the season she's advocating for restraint in the war - when Aemond becomes regent and she meets Cole after he says "we have given the war to the dragons" in the courtyard, she asks him "And what of justice? Of temperance? Or is strength now to be our only god?" . When Otto wants to kill Rhaenyra and suggests that rulers must be willing to sacrifice a few lives for the greater good she says "Reluctance to murder is not a weakness". Here I think her religious values also shape her sense of morality. So she's not some radical speaking for the small-folk, but as a member of the nobility and a member of the Faith she feels a sense of responsibility to their subjects. Like in season 1 she sincerely says "A Queen must count the cost to her subjects" - I think Alicent believes she has a moral obligation. Her seat on the council and position as regent gave her the confidence to think she could avoid the bloodiest outcomes and mitigate the cost to her family, herself and the realm. But with more dragons at play and the small council on either side keen for war, she realises escalation is inevitable with Aemond leading the greens as well. I think Alicent's decision this episode makes 100% sense in terms of how she's been written and the internal conflict she's been undergoing since the very first episode of season 1. But that doesn't mean it isn't a desperate decision and a risky move. Rhaenyra has also been making desperate and risky choices (giving bastards dragons, visiting kings landing, wanting to fly herself into battle) but these characters are people - so their choices do not have to be thoroughly logical but the most important thing for me is that they must capture "the human heart in conflict with itself" and I think Alicent's character does that brilliantly :)
The cracks are growing. There have been issues since seaosn 1. Why was Rhaena running around the Vale forever? One to two scenes or spread it out in the last 3 eps. Why are we only introducing the Triarchy now? They could have been introduced in season 1 if the writers planned ahead. Why wasn't Daeron cast/ introduced? I don't mind the 2 seasons of build up but there are ways to make that political intrigue captivating and instead they taken all the agency away from our characters. What was really striking to me was Rhaenyra 'the peaceful' being offered a semi-peaceful coup/takeover and choosing violence instead. I'm not saying Alicent's plan would work (I think she's grossly oversimplifying the situation, literal armies are marching now) but for most of the season Nyra felt powerless and on the back foot. Now that she's in a positon of power, she is less amenable to a peace. I'm not convinced the show realizes her villany in that moment, I think they continue to hype up Rhaenyra and it's going to bite them in the butt when she starts calling for blood. Also "A son for a son" what about baby Jaeherys? Did she forget about him? I'd understand more if she wanted Aemond's head but Aegon? Even Daemon's Harrenhal arc is pretty pointless looking back because what makes him go back to Rhaenyra is the vision of the White Walkers, and that's a lazy conclusion. ~ Love the pocast and the Kitty cat!
Yooo! I totally understand your take on the editing and writing. I can't pinpoint exactly but there was something really offbeat about it. Same with dialogue. Also, you guys totally nailed it with the characterization of Alicent and Rhaenyra having no agency. To me this "prophecy" gives mostly every character no real agency in the story. Episode 8 is filled with the most shameless cameos and fan service designed to get people to cheer, forcing these unnecessary connections to GOT. And yes, it is corny.
before season one was filmed it was announced that the show will have many female executive, to create a show with feminine touch. And part of it was not to show some of the bad thing that happen to or done by female characters. Thus messing up George R. R. Martin
Honestly the first four episodes of the season I loved. But these last four. While they had great scenes in them I felt like they didn't do anything other than try to set up for the next season.
Daemon is also minimized he has agency and is lord protector so he haspower to make moves and more inquired to than anyone because he is helping rhaenyra if they go for rhaenyra they going for daemon as well they minimized his actions and him being patient and calculating and a real general/war commanderthat knows real war than his enemies combined he chose rhaenyra because the greens are a threat and the threat to rhaenyra and himself and their children together and their stepchildren with their other marriage... its not because of dreams that he chose rhaenyra but because when they usurped it was an affront to him as well after rhaenyra is crowned daemon is named lord prtector so he is prtecting the realm and i dont think he bad in terms of war he actually carried the war on his back by himself alone... who greater than him as solo without the dragon the most dangerous man in westeros not even aemond surpasses this...
It was so funny. Someone on tik Tok mentioned that HotD S2 makes a good argument in support of a patriarchy. The only good female this season was Alys and maybe Helaena although she has forgotten her child was gruesomely murdered.
I can tell we wouldn’t agree on a lot of real world stuff but I do enjoy and respect your breakdowns to the episodes. I do agree that the last episode felt choppy but I feel like the whole season was like that. It hasn’t felt seamless since Miguel Sopachnik left the show.
I am really disappointed with this show I don’t know why I was expecting season 1 GOT level sophistication but the writing is terrible Scenes came out of nowhere - the Criston Cole Gawain scene Scenes were poor choice fan service - the Alicent moment with Rhae and the Daemom vision scene Scenes were added needlessly that could have been one scene - the Rhaena running through the hills of the veil to find the dragon Some scenes should have been saved for next season episode 1 - Tyland with the triarchy. (Glad we got a guy in that scene that was looking like the Dario Naharis character from GOT was supposed to look like. That was kinda cool) The end montage should have been actually delivered on this season. Yet it felt like more building up to something with no payoff The one good scene was Corlys and Allan / finally they get some character development after a whole season of one note from each of them (writers fault- though I actually think the actors could have milked what they got more) Some lines were ridiculous- the Aegon sausage comment was cringe and had childish appeal to me The fact that this episode felt like a middle episode also irked me Basically I agree with you both
This is the best explanation of how they have failed these two women characters yet. I also completely agree about the cuts, I noticed this throughout the season! Also a lot of cuts to black and then opening to another scene which is so weird to me.
The show is NOT failing lol. You book snobs are still going to be watching in 2 years time and that will always be funny to me. There early for every episode then there even earlier to hate on a story that still beats every other show this year.
@Alex-bz8lj lmao the minor changes they've made aren't the reason this episode was sub par. You're saying they changed stuff, but how do you know that? What if the history book you're trying to use as fact was written by a liar? Or someone who's extremely biased? Youre delulu my dude.
Writing decisions are made only in order not to repeat the source material and compete with the author of the book in the ability to write characters and stories. Only they are noticeably losing and I now understand exactly why George was so disappointed and refused to participate in writing the third season. Writers make changes without thinking about why the plot was written this way in the first place in the book. They also lose cause-consequences relation and motivations of the charachers, while doing it. But to be fair, I'm asking too much from this show-because I would remark that the characters are not consistent with the SHOW canon either. For example: They made Alicent and Rhaenyra hate each other for 20 years (just like in the book) but suddenly both want peace? Both of them don't care about the deaths of their son&grandson? Really? Then why didn't they try to make peace BEFORE everything got worse? Previously, way smaller things made them ignore each other for years but now they don't care about safety or their children. Alicent for 10 years was holding a grudge because her father got fired but here we are - nobody cares for Jaehaerys! Apparently, Rhaenyra even forgot that Luke was avenged! She wants another son! Brilliant! ( By the way, the writers already confirmed that the sept reunion was a fanservice, I suspect this meeting is too. Very bad the show was ready to sacrifice all the logic just to please fans) Daemon's arc was long but made sense. But all his development went down because after all these visions he made the decision to support Rhaenyra only ....because of the prophecy. Rhaena's arc was dragging down the pacing without any payoff. But it was only stupid and boring Even Aemond&Helaena small scene ruined Helaena's character and broke the lore - from what point did she start to understand her prophecies soo clearly? Why did she want to run away with Alicent 5 minutes ago if she saw everyone's fate already? Doesn't she care for her family? Because it looked like she wanted to use her powers only for herself. And how long have dreamers been astrally moving into other people's heads? I really don't want to discuss this episode much and I can't. The only scenes I liked were with Cole, Gwayne, Ulf, and Tyland. And I know the reason why: the secondary characters have a superficial description and little screen time, so it's impossible to screw it up. Being in the mix with good acting (and it must be admitted that almost all of the actors in the show are excellent), it gives these characters the advantage of being interestingly and consistently written. Also, note that all those listed characters are male, which means they are allowed to have flaws in this show. Yes, that's right, for some reason "women don't want blood, they are all peaceful" narrative is repeated over and over again. It made them all bland and illogical. Even Alys, like other women in this season, is just another smallfolk champion because "women want peace, men are violent". Seriously, why can't women be just people? You know, have flaws, desires and bad habits? The only main character that got fair treatment turned out to be Aegon, and I suspect that happened thanks to incredible work of the actor Tom Glynn-Carney. Because other characters just don't make sense, so he must be an exception. I mean, deaths don't have any effect on characters, previous motivations were forgotten or replaced with prophecy stuff. This season feels like a huge filler because nothing has consequences and weight, we see the same scenes over again, and the show refuses to show both sides of the story equally bad. I don't know if season 3, even with incredible writers and the help of GRRM, will be able to get out of this hole. I think the damage have been made and it is useless to hope that the story will become better, only if not on the condition that they ignore season 2 almost completely. This episode deserves 2/10 just because of the colossal damage they did to the whole story& message by ruining Alicent and how they handled Daemon& Rhaena's arcs. The season as a whole 5,-8 or 6/10 .
When it comes to writing women, Hollywood always half-asses the concept of what motivations a woman could have. They simply do not want to put the time in to develop female characters. I am glad the technology is becoming more available in terms of the everyday person having the ability to create films and tv shows because; this will be the only way women will be able to be more developed in future stories. Even when they have a woman at the helm like "The Acolyte," they drop the ball.
I agree about a lot here but I thought the episode couldve redeemed everything with Daemon and Aemonds big fight here... Damon's season long exile, Rhaenyra' kinda half-massed existence for the entire season... All could have been paid off with that battle under God's Eye. The writers are milking it to reach four seasons and playing it safe. That's why its only 8 episodes. Theres not a ton of story and they want it to be more than a "mini series" but 3 seasons with more action would have been better. A big act like the one Daemon's about to do with Aemond would've been a perfect end to a kinda of tepid season. Still good, maybe great at some points, but definitely not Season 1, just because there was so much to do
Love this discussion. For me both encounters were improbable and useless…the last one more so. Both conversations stated the obvious and I thought it was ridiculous to ask for peace in both scenarios. Royal Blood had been spilt on both sides so war was inevitable . I also agree with you guys in that it seems like the writers are afraid to write the women as true villains, or having villainous intent; they always have to seem like an antihero or “temporarily” making the wrong choice based on emotion when that’s just not the case and that’s not compelling to watch . At this point it would make sense for both Alicent and Rhaenyra to be ruthless for power and making all moves necessary to win for their side. I side eyed the entire last conversation between those two 😂😂😂 Like we get it, they can act great!!! But can you give them better materiel to act with! Geesh! PS but then again….they just wrote Aemond as a cartoonish villain in the finale & Daemon went on a 7 week spiritual retreat so maybe they just can’t do complexity….
They not telling the STORY THE MAIN STORY THE MORAL OF THE STORY BUT THEIR OWN AND ITS NOT IMPACTFUL BECAUSE ITS NOT THE TRUTH they actually minimizing their own story in season 1 to season 2 in season 1 alicent and rhaenyra are more protective, jace is more strong, aegon was a piece of shit than he being now and they telling us that the war is basically POINTLESS BY MENTIONING HIS PROBLEMS lets us come to our own conclusion about this i mean they just compltely disappointed me with how they telling the story instead of GEORGE RR MARTIN ATORY AND FIRE AND BLOOD intead they contradicting, the war is weak because the reasons isnt valuable enough im just saying even they minimize the strategies of these characters they just being ruthless or foolish or wreckless instead of adding strategy in their actions like rhaenyra having many son because the war was coming.. why it was good for daemon to suggest marriage with his niece and bring back glory to their house targaryen.. even aemond action burning sharp point which is an ally to the blacks they dont show us that hw trying to draw them out.. but they dont show us the strategy even tyland with them triachy is foolish i can watch a movie like house party and be more entertained im just saying uts dissatisfying to see these wite walkers and knight king its dumb
Very poorly…I don’t know why, instead of keeping both ladies true to character they are trying to make Alicent and Rhaenyra non resolute and indecisive. I don’t like how they changed Alicent into this meek pawn on the chess board instead of the main chess player. Write them as the ruthless, shameless, calculating, manipulative characters as they are intended to be. This idea of this war getting out of hand solely because of patriarchy is taking away from the story
yall better let that cat share their hotd thoughts 🤣 honestly rhaenyra was the weakest point of this season for me. i just wanted her to get angry! like foreal foreal angry. not just mad enough to make fierce faces. the greens stole her throne, killed her son, and sent somebody to murder her in her bed. and that was after alicent spent years making her life hell in king's landing by constantly wanting to see her kids directly after they'd been born (knowing the pains of childbirth mind you), convincing her kids to fear rhaenyra's kids, and sh*t talking her to sir crispy (who lowkey got a really good monologue in the finale ngl). instead rhaenyra was so focused on being kind that she didn't do half as much as she could've or should've. her whole thing in the finale with alicent just left me even more unimpressed.
This obsession with making all the characters grey went super bad. Just let characters do good and bad things like normal people but don’t try and construct it to make it your desired shade of grey. So bizarre that everything in this show got turned into an accident so they could take full responsibility off of all the characters. That’s ridiculous. I can like a character who does evil things… I don’t like an incompetent character who just made a stupid mistake. That’s pathetic
To put it simply, the show doesn’t know what the fans want and they don’t know what to do with the central characters, especially female characters. I WANT THE FEMALE RAGE. 😡
Did I like the finally? Hell no!!! The show is based on the Dance of the dragon; everything that was leading up to the fall of the dragons was covered in the first season, this season should have HEAVILY FOCUSED ON the dragons and their riders. If they were going to cut or switch characters that will have a big impact on the plot of the story, than there was no reason that Rhaena/Nettles should have only got three 30 sec scenes of her just running haphazardly along the cliff sides, then a brief glimpse of a lackluster view of sheepstealer. Why Otto Hightowers meeting with the Tyroshi pirates was giving to Tyland Lannister in so many cringey unfunny scenes? I don’t know 😮Those scenes was a waste. I would have much rather have seen scenes with the dragon seeds learning how to speak old Valarian , how to properly ride their dragons. Instead we get Rhaenyra mawling over the consequences of this war. We get it! Innocent lives will be lost. They are overemphasizing a point that’s clearly obvious. Innocent lives have already been lost, like her son Luke, Aegons son Jaeharys, all the men Cristin Cole murdered who wouldn’t bend the knee to the greens….etc. Everything should be in preparation to this war and it should be on sight, that’s including Alicent in Rhaenyra. Any old love they once had for each other should have been out the window the moment kinslaying came into the picture. Whether it was Alicent or Rhaenyra direct order, those deaths were on their hands and I feel like the writers are trying so hard to write those characters in particular in a way that elevates them from all blame and I don’t like that
Wasn’t a huge fan of the episode but I feel like it’s cause I had such high expectations from season 1 after a disappointing season 8. Hoping season 3 is much better!
DANY LITERALLY BROUGHT DRAGONS BACK AND SHE FOUGHT THE NIGHT KING ON DROGON. But I agree 😂 it’s very corny for them to do callbacks to GoT knowing how it ended.
They already tried to do that with Ceresi. We don't want another her. I'm okay with Alicent having remorse. Its not coming from left field. She realized that her wants were never hers and her spiritual awakening lead to her to betray her family and she didn't wear her green dress.
No this is complete character assassination. Alicent already wasn’t like cersei. She had a moral compass that she consistently betrayed in the pursuit of the preservation of her children. Alicent’s motivations trauma life and children are all irrelevant because of Rhaenyra. She chose Rhaenyra over everyone in her life. This is terrible inconsistent writing.
@@Meme-jo7uj No, it makes complete sense. The whole season was Alicent reflecting on how her sons were not good men and all she did her entire life was people please the men in her family. That includes her father, husband, and sons. She finally took a stance for HERself. That meant showing remorse to the only close relationship she had outside these men and trying to right her wrongs. Alicent isn't Ceresi, she isn't this villian that wants power. She was only a villian because she was told to be one. She didn't chose Rhaenyra. She chose herself.
@@Karla-ok9qd she agreed to the murder of her children. Rhaenyra says a son for a son and Alicent doesn’t even bring up Jaehaerys. Alicent betrayed everyone in her family. Her innocent son sweet brother and allies who pledged to her son. Alicent’s character is inconsistent. This is not explainable AT ALL.
@@Meme-jo7uj Did you miss the part where it wasn't Rhaenyra who ordered the kill? Alicent didn't agree to kill all her children just Aegon because she understood that she NEEDS to do it. In order to secure her throne and unite the kingdom. Rhaenyra explained to her why and Alicent agreed because there isn't another way. Aegon would have to do the same to Rhaenyra.
@@Karla-ok9qd Alicent already knows this. He children would have to be sacrificed to facilitate Rhaenyra’s reign. This is why she structures her entire life to prevent this from happening. All the character development motivations and time has been thrown in the trash for things we as the audience already knows. Alicent agree to this is character assassination. She is a terrible mother but she did love her children. She betrayed everyone she knew. This is sad you are trying to justify dumb writing. Ts doesn’t make sense.
I think with me the reason it's hard to have sympathy for Aegon is because so far he hasn't confronted hismself and what he did. Even Alicent when she starts feeling oppression as a woman, she doesn't show any remorse(from what I can remember) for covering up Aegon's actions. Then you compare them to Daemon who groomed his niece, he's at least a point now where he's no longer trying to exert his will over Rhaenyra and he's instead submitting to her.
I loved this episode. One thing people need to stop doing is stop comparing HOTD to Game of Thrones. Stop having so many expectations and just take the show for what it is 🤷🏽♀️
Hand on heart ,I for one I'm taking the show as is and draw not comparison. HOTD the writing is terrible, this was a season of nothingness that could have been covered in two episodes. We keep hoping for intrigue and a showcasing of an incredible story and are left wanting everytime
About Aegon: I like how he is portraeyd. In many shows rapist are portrieyd as sadisric monsters.
Aegon meanwhilw probaply didn't even relaized what he's done. When Alicon confronts him he's like "It was just a bit of fun. Why you so upset."
I dunno it feels more realistic.
I think the real issue is that his victim is of no importance. How did it afect her life, how does she heal and move foward in life.
We see her ocasonily as an extra in the background.
But her rape wasn't about her. It was to characterize Aegon.
I think that's why it feel so unbalanced.
Also, Alicent effectively forced moon tea down Dyana's neck and banished her from the castle; she made the entire thing go away for Aegon. So in essence there's no meaningful way for any of that to be addressed, 'cos the few people that are even aware _ain't talkin'._ I've seen people speak to the 'poetic justice' they feel was served him though, both in that after his accident he certainly won't be able to do that to any other women, and that he no longer has a male heir either. 😶
I get the cringy feeling seeing Daenerys clip it felt like they were trying to appeal to disappointed GOT fans it’s like adding salt to wound
well yes but also no cause the books exist and are what matter and dany is important to the books. targs having dreams and visions of what is probably dany isn't new to the lore all roads lead to dany
💯
@@Mari-tc4gw yea but the problem is there trying to hint at Dany in the show but it's completely pointless because of what ultimately happened to her in season 8 if not for that season it wouldn't be a problem.
I’m disappointed how Helena’s grief felt like such an afterthought to portray. Especially in a season with so much focus on the arcs for the other male characters at the Red Keep(Aemond, Aegon, Deamon). Looking back her baby’s death feels more like shock value than anything that impacts the character because we don’t focus more on showing her emotional impact from a decision instead of her just talking about how she is sad.
Exactly removing halainas grief and turning her into a dumb spoiler NPC was stupid.
@@thatoneblackdude3333 it’s not even the green sight addition I dislike but how they do nothing with it. Like a mother who realizes in hindsight that she foresaw the death of her child and maybe could’ve prevented it? The idea of her seeing and getting lost in visions after that mistake and seeing constant signs that point to all those she cares for dying. Realizing she can do nothing to prevent it as each vision is made true.
Like the Greeks are the blueprint for “prophecy tragedy” stories but they just…aren’t doing much with her. If you’re going to add this why not explore it more. Replacing the Dameon dreaming with some Helena dreaming scenes could’ve been great television
Super annoyed at the Alicent/Rhaenyra scene because i was defending choices made with respect to Team Green thinking it was complex characterisation. It wasn't - it was just shoddy and inconsistent writing. Alicent isnt Cersei yes but if they wanted her to be willing to sacrifice her sons to save her daughter they needed to establish that characterisation starting back in S1 and also do more work about her shock and horror at Lucerys' death and her becoming disenchanted with Aemond. They didnt so it feels like it came out of left field.
The problem with Aegon is that most of the bad stuff he’s implied to have done to women are told by people who weren’t even around him or had a bias against him as the one who tells us about his SA is Rhaenyras own court jester who wasn’t even in the city when he said it happened. They also added stuff like him going to child fighting pits which was just crazy cause it’s said he went to rat fighting pits. The problem with his character ultimately is they gave us everything bad that he’s implied to have done but not other characters like Rhaenyra and I don’t think the show thought of this at the time and just how strong a hatred is 4 what he did as 🍇 in some peoples minds is worse than murder.
THIS. In Princess and The Queen, another historical account by “author” (Archmaester Glydyan) of Fire and Blood, there was no stories from Mushroom at all. Also Mushroom as a court jester is illiterate. The person who wrote his accounts for him even “failed to sign”. In legal documents, those statements would already be disregarded completely.
So yeah they write in the show all the bad things about Aegon II supposedly but any negative account of Rhaenyra, even Alicent apparently, is propaganda
I just don’t think they needed to paint it like both sides are equal in any way. The greens are obviously the villains and by trying to paint them as sympathetic they’ve had to make some of their bad actions just accidents and incompetence and in order to make the blacks look better is more accidents. Villains and Protagonists both do good and evil things! Like making everyone stupid and accident prone doesn’t help your story… like it’s okay to like a bad character because it’s not real. They could’ve just let Aemond kill Luke on purpose and that would be an actual villain move but now it’s an accident and just pathetic that the war started on a lie. Like why give Aemond that cushion if they were then going to have him burn his own brother and threaten the life of his own sister. Like why even change the story to make it an accident to kill someone he supposedly hated
You can whine about aegon all you want but to pretend that they haven't done the same to anyone else is insane or are you just going to forget about rhenyrea having sex with Cole and going out with daemon wasn't also a rumor in the book? Or daemon killing his wife even tho he was still fighting in the step stones when it happened? .
@@thatoneblackdude3333 Idk why your thinking this is a team post and your one of the crazy ones in this fandom who think it is like im not on either team cause there both psypaths who think there chosen by gods and begin wars cause they wanna sit on a pointy chair so imma stop u before u before u go crazy 😂
@@OnlineSafetyQ if your not on either side why are you whining about aegon as if he's the only victim of this? They do that for plenty of characters in the show, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of people constantly going on about aegon as of rhenyrea and daemon also weren't negatively effected by story changes.
as soon as Alicent asked Rhanerya to run off with her i knew it was over. They write them like 15 year old girls as if they haven't killed each other off springs they should hate each other not want to run off happily ever after.
Y’all forgot to mention how great Rheyna’s side quest was chasing that dragon 😂
Truly just minutes and minutes of her running through the hills 😭😭😭 like why?
I felt the episode was underwhelming, but I couldn't put my finger on why. This discussion helped to point out the weak aspects of the finale.
I want to add that there are interesting points in the episode. The UA-cam creator GrayArea has an interesting perspective on the episode.
Your tuxedo cat 16:30 is so cute!
The impact of the Writer’s Strike and the episode count shrinking from 10 to 8 could be felt throughout the season but this episode specifically. I think maybe if they had two more episodes we would have gotten something more conclusive.
GRRM has a blog post where he said the drafts for the season two script went through about 4-5 rounds of drafts, months before the season started filming. I don’t think it was the strikes so much as HBO cutting the budget. They could have only made some edits on set, not changed whole plot points with the writing. But in case of budget issues, Ryan Condal et al really should have just allocated their time better and actually written well, idk how this got through so many rounds of editing and HBO executives seeing it
When did the episodes shrink from 10 to 8? Wasn’t it always going to be 8?
You guys nailed it. Great podcast. I agree with pretty much all of your points.
I will say that HBO is indeed using HOTD to prop up GOT’s ending by shoehorning in the prophecy and dagger. They are trying to make it make sense.
In the pilot episode Viserys tells Rhaenyra that a Targ must be in charge still in order to unite the kingdom to fight against the cold. That’s specific wording and that’s exactly what Jon did. He didn’t kill the NK 1v1 but he still defeated him. If it wasn’t for Jon rallying all those armies to fight at WF then the White Walkers would have swept through Westeros. So according to Viserys’ version that would mean that the prophecy will be fulfilled and it’s Jon.
The dagger was tied in to give it purpose with Arya. Meaning that it wasn’t Arya that was relevant in the killing of the NK. It was the dagger. She was just wielding it.
Dany was shown in the vision because she’s still important and she resurrects dragons. Also they probably didn’t want to spoil new GOT viewers just in case…there are some out there that haven’t watched GOT but watch HOTD.
I think Alicent's mindset is this: I have sacrificed my entire life at the altar of duty and service to the realm and it got me NOTHING. The "game of thrones" has ruined her life and even if she doubles-down to win this war, what's the price not only for herself but the tens of thousands who will die fighting to put either Aegon or Rhaenyra on the throne? When Helaena said "I was happier before I became Queen" I think that really hit for Alicent because the same applied to her. The pursuit of and service to power ruined her life.
There's a really beautiful quote from Jaime in A Storm of Swords that to me captures the trajectory of Alicent's thoughts, Jaime says "I've lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war"
Alicent doesn't want to win cause the cost of winning is too high (she's no moral angel but she's never displayed a capacity for enjoying violence or cruelty or mass barbarity against the smallfolk or really anyone). In fact the whole reason she dived into this game was because she thought her children's lives were in danger but now Aegon is crippled, her grandson is dead, Otto is gods knows where, her brother may die under dragon fire and Aemond is a cruel and violent prince. I don't think her aversion to playing the game is due to her being a woman and therefore being repulsed by violence - I think more than anyone in the story now, she realises the futility of it all.
So Alicent's choice is on the one hand very selfish (sacrificing her sons) but also incredibly selfless for someone in her class position: she would rather sacrifice her family and let Rhaenyra win if it means stopping potentially tens of thousands dying (whose blood would be partly on her hands) for some stupid iron chair. Characters in Westeros, especially the nobility, are stuck in a cycle of constantly struggling for power and losing not only their loved ones but their own sense of humanity for the sake of lands, titles, wealth, status and safety. I think Alicent is trying to break out of this cause she sees that ultimately, it's all so damn pointless (after the Dance, there's Blackfyre rebellions and then Robert's Rebellion and then the War of the 5 Kings).
Damn Jamie’s quote is crazy. So true.
I am not sure I agree with this. I thought the final scene was just terrible and completely out of character for Alicent. That she would agree to Rhaenyra killing Aegon after all the regret she felt about being a bad mother to him and being the catalyst for him going to Rook's Rest! And what is this "a son for a son"? Did both of them forget that Jaehaerys was beheaded to avenge Lucerys?
I don't think Alicent's selfishness has any redeeming feature. She set everything in motion, and now when she is no longer in a position of power, she wants to wash her hands off the mess that she helped create and she is offering up her son (a son whom she forced on the throne) to do so. What's worse, she told Rhaenyra about Aemond's and Cole's plans. She doomed everyone in her family -- her sons, her brother, her lover, her Hightower kin, so that she can bow out! She realised the futility because she was no longer a player on the board.
And her plan for ending the war is silly -- she MUST know that by now, seeing what she has seen this season. Does she really think that Aemond will give up because he is outnumbered? That he would not destroy and burn everything he can rather than let Rhaenyra sit the throne?
I can understand her desire for peace for herself and her daughter, but I do not buy for a minute that she would give up Aegon to achieve this. In fact, if instead of going to Rhaenyra, Alicent had spent more time with Aegon and if she had asked him to leave and escape, chances are he would have agreed. She could have escaped with Helaena, Aegon, and her remaining grandchild. But the writers wanted Alicent to have a final scene with Rhaenyra -- and all for what? Next season, Rhaenyra is going to find that Aegon is not at King's Landing, so this is a non-consequential deal from a story-telling perspective.
I think the writers wanted to do a mirror scene from episode 3 and wanted to play into two women pitted against each other. It only serves to draw superficial parallel between Rhaenyra and Alicent but in reality, makes Alicent one of the worst characters on the show.
@@joiedevivre55 Why do we NOT consider it selfish for these nobles to wage war in the name of their families (a couple dozen of people at most) knowing that it will come at the cost of the smallfolk? Why are the lives of Aegon or Aemond more important than the realm's peace? I really think Alicent is seeing a bigger picture and making a selfish choice that's very liberating for her character AND in her mind, could end a war with dragons that would devastate the kingdoms.
I think it's okay to not like the final scene obviously, I enjoyed it and was really surprised by Alicen't revelations. Which I think are thematically resonant with HOTD/early GOT and ASOIAF: the pursuit of power destroys people, the submission to duty and service of family can be suffocating and war is often a pointless and destructive endeavour waged by selfish people. It took Alicent more than 20 years to realise this and she's one of the few characters in this universe to actually do something bold about it. Where she goes from here as a character idk though.
And according to all that Alicent knows, her plan is a good one, she hasn't read F&B like you and I. As far as Alicent is aware, Kings Landing will be surrounded by several dragons, Vhagar will be outmatched and Aemond likely killed or captured or sent to the wall even. She isn't aware of Aegon's plan to leave. So from her POV, this is a good and almost bloodless way to ensure peace is achieved.
@@andilezulu292 "Why do we NOT consider it selfish for these nobles to wage war in the name of their families (a couple dozen of people at most) knowing that it will come at the cost of the smallfolk? Why are the lives of Aegon or Aemond more important than the realm's peace?"
You will get no quarrel from me on this :)
However, Alicent's motives are not about seeing the larger picture and making the ultimate sacrifice -- she says she wants to be done with all the plotting and schemeing and that she has found her path -- her reasons are selfish and pertain to herself and what she wants. Besides, the show hasn't laid any groundwork for her to make the decision to betray her family and her offer up her son for the greater good. What we do see, instead, is Alicent losing power at the council, feeling genuine remorse over Aegon, and get attacked by small folk. Her reason for going away to Kingswood is that she feels unappreciated by the council, the realm and her family for all the "sacrifices" she thinks she has made. It's her loss of power and thwarted ambition more than any concern for small folks that leads her to renounce power in such a dramatic fashion. She is cloaking it with 'this is what I want' and 'ending the needless war' but it's the classic fox and sour grapes, if you think about. The real question is would she have invited Rhaenyra to take the throne and served up Aegon as the necessary sacrifice if she still had her seat at the council and if Rhaenyra hadn't found new dragon riders. Somehow I doubt it.
As for her plan, it is naive beyond belief and not thought through at all. She foolishly hoped she could escape with Aegon and Helaena; Rhaenyra had to remind her that she would have to publicly execute Aegon. Forget Aemond's wrath for a moment, what makes her think the very council that refused to name her regent because she is a woman would suddenly accept Helaena's authority and allow her to command the guards to open the gates for Rhaenyra? She doesn't need to read the books to know her plan is doomed, she only needs to think about it for more than a minute. I think you are being too generous in your interpretation of Alicent's decision :)
@@joiedevivre55 I think her motivations are a mix of the personal (losing power, feeling alienated etc) AND seeing a bigger picture. Throughout the season she's advocating for restraint in the war - when Aemond becomes regent and she meets Cole after he says "we have given the war to the dragons" in the courtyard, she asks him "And what of justice? Of temperance? Or is strength now to be our only god?" . When Otto wants to kill Rhaenyra and suggests that rulers must be willing to sacrifice a few lives for the greater good she says "Reluctance to murder is not a weakness". Here I think her religious values also shape her sense of morality. So she's not some radical speaking for the small-folk, but as a member of the nobility and a member of the Faith she feels a sense of responsibility to their subjects. Like in season 1 she sincerely says "A Queen must count the cost to her subjects" - I think Alicent believes she has a moral obligation.
Her seat on the council and position as regent gave her the confidence to think she could avoid the bloodiest outcomes and mitigate the cost to her family, herself and the realm. But with more dragons at play and the small council on either side keen for war, she realises escalation is inevitable with Aemond leading the greens as well.
I think Alicent's decision this episode makes 100% sense in terms of how she's been written and the internal conflict she's been undergoing since the very first episode of season 1. But that doesn't mean it isn't a desperate decision and a risky move. Rhaenyra has also been making desperate and risky choices (giving bastards dragons, visiting kings landing, wanting to fly herself into battle) but these characters are people - so their choices do not have to be thoroughly logical but the most important thing for me is that they must capture "the human heart in conflict with itself" and I think Alicent's character does that brilliantly :)
The cracks are growing. There have been issues since seaosn 1. Why was Rhaena running around the Vale forever? One to two scenes or spread it out in the last 3 eps. Why are we only introducing the Triarchy now? They could have been introduced in season 1 if the writers planned ahead. Why wasn't Daeron cast/ introduced? I don't mind the 2 seasons of build up but there are ways to make that political intrigue captivating and instead they taken all the agency away from our characters. What was really striking to me was Rhaenyra 'the peaceful' being offered a semi-peaceful coup/takeover and choosing violence instead. I'm not saying Alicent's plan would work (I think she's grossly oversimplifying the situation, literal armies are marching now) but for most of the season Nyra felt powerless and on the back foot. Now that she's in a positon of power, she is less amenable to a peace. I'm not convinced the show realizes her villany in that moment, I think they continue to hype up Rhaenyra and it's going to bite them in the butt when she starts calling for blood. Also "A son for a son" what about baby Jaeherys? Did she forget about him? I'd understand more if she wanted Aemond's head but Aegon? Even Daemon's Harrenhal arc is pretty pointless looking back because what makes him go back to Rhaenyra is the vision of the White Walkers, and that's a lazy conclusion.
~ Love the pocast and the Kitty cat!
Yooo! I totally understand your take on the editing and writing. I can't pinpoint exactly but there was something really offbeat about it. Same with dialogue.
Also, you guys totally nailed it with the characterization of Alicent and Rhaenyra having no agency. To me this "prophecy" gives mostly every character no real agency in the story.
Episode 8 is filled with the most shameless cameos and fan service designed to get people to cheer, forcing these unnecessary connections to GOT. And yes, it is corny.
before season one was filmed it was announced that the show will have many female executive, to create a show with feminine touch. And part of it was not to show some of the bad thing that happen to or done by female characters. Thus messing up George R. R. Martin
A lot of female writers, which is why the shownis now devoid of sny logic and running on simple emotion
Honestly the first four episodes of the season I loved. But these last four. While they had great scenes in them I felt like they didn't do anything other than try to set up for the next season.
Daemon is also minimized he has agency and is lord protector so he haspower to make moves and more inquired to than anyone because he is helping rhaenyra if they go for rhaenyra they going for daemon as well they minimized his actions and him being patient and calculating and a real general/war commanderthat knows real war than his enemies combined he chose rhaenyra because the greens are a threat and the threat to rhaenyra and himself and their children together and their stepchildren with their other marriage... its not because of dreams that he chose rhaenyra but because when they usurped it was an affront to him as well after rhaenyra is crowned daemon is named lord prtector so he is prtecting the realm and i dont think he bad in terms of war he actually carried the war on his back by himself alone... who greater than him as solo without the dragon the most dangerous man in westeros not even aemond surpasses this...
It was so funny. Someone on tik Tok mentioned that HotD S2 makes a good argument in support of a patriarchy. The only good female this season was Alys and maybe Helaena although she has forgotten her child was gruesomely murdered.
I can tell we wouldn’t agree on a lot of real world stuff but I do enjoy and respect your breakdowns to the episodes. I do agree that the last episode felt choppy but I feel like the whole season was like that. It hasn’t felt seamless since Miguel Sopachnik left the show.
@@ev2155 thanks for the kind words! We definitely agree. After the Rhaenys episode is when things shifted a bit for us
yall are a vibe. first time watcher, really enjoyed it
I am really disappointed with this show
I don’t know why I was expecting season 1 GOT level sophistication but the writing is terrible
Scenes came out of nowhere - the Criston Cole Gawain scene
Scenes were poor choice fan service - the Alicent moment with Rhae and the Daemom vision scene
Scenes were added needlessly that could have been one scene - the Rhaena running through the hills of the veil to find the dragon
Some scenes should have been saved for next season episode 1 - Tyland with the triarchy. (Glad we got a guy in that scene that was looking like the Dario Naharis character from GOT was supposed to look like. That was kinda cool)
The end montage should have been actually delivered on this season. Yet it felt like more building up to something with no payoff
The one good scene was Corlys and Allan / finally they get some character development after a whole season of one note from each of them (writers fault- though I actually think the actors could have milked what they got more)
Some lines were ridiculous- the Aegon sausage comment was cringe and had childish appeal
to me
The fact that this episode felt like a middle episode also irked me
Basically I agree with you both
This is the best explanation of how they have failed these two women characters yet.
I also completely agree about the cuts, I noticed this throughout the season! Also a lot of cuts to black and then opening to another scene which is so weird to me.
The show is failing cuz they ignore the source material and make it in own thing
The source material that biased and unreliable like it’s literally a history book.
@@tiaraellis9206 and yet the changes they have made were for the worse
The show is NOT failing lol. You book snobs are still going to be watching in 2 years time and that will always be funny to me. There early for every episode then there even earlier to hate on a story that still beats every other show this year.
@Alex-bz8lj lmao the minor changes they've made aren't the reason this episode was sub par.
You're saying they changed stuff, but how do you know that? What if the history book you're trying to use as fact was written by a liar? Or someone who's extremely biased? Youre delulu my dude.
@@tiaraellis9206 man this is not a real story from the past lol... this means whatever GRRM wrote is the truth or at least most likely
Writing decisions are made only in order not to repeat the source material and compete with the author of the book in the ability to write characters and stories. Only they are noticeably losing and I now understand exactly why George was so disappointed and refused to participate in writing the third season.
Writers make changes without thinking about why the plot was written this way in the first place in the book. They also lose cause-consequences relation and motivations of the charachers, while doing it.
But to be fair, I'm asking too much from this show-because I would remark that the characters are not consistent with the SHOW canon either. For example: They made Alicent and Rhaenyra hate each other for 20 years (just like in the book) but suddenly both want peace? Both of them don't care about the deaths of their son&grandson? Really? Then why didn't they try to make peace BEFORE everything got worse? Previously, way smaller things made them ignore each other for years but now they don't care about safety or their children. Alicent for 10 years was holding a grudge because her father got fired but here we are - nobody cares for Jaehaerys! Apparently, Rhaenyra even forgot that Luke was avenged! She wants another son! Brilliant! ( By the way, the writers already confirmed that the sept reunion was a fanservice, I suspect this meeting is too. Very bad the show was ready to sacrifice all the logic just to please fans)
Daemon's arc was long but made sense. But all his development went down because after all these visions he made the decision to support Rhaenyra only ....because of the prophecy.
Rhaena's arc was dragging down the pacing without any payoff. But it was only stupid and boring
Even Aemond&Helaena small scene ruined Helaena's character and broke the lore - from what point did she start to understand her prophecies soo clearly? Why did she want to run away with Alicent 5 minutes ago if she saw everyone's fate already? Doesn't she care for her family? Because it looked like she wanted to use her powers only for herself. And how long have dreamers been astrally moving into other people's heads?
I really don't want to discuss this episode much and I can't. The only scenes I liked were with Cole, Gwayne, Ulf, and Tyland. And I know the reason why: the secondary characters have a superficial description and little screen time, so it's impossible to screw it up. Being in the mix with good acting (and it must be admitted that almost all of the actors in the show are excellent), it gives these characters the advantage of being interestingly and consistently written. Also, note that all those listed characters are male, which means they are allowed to have flaws in this show. Yes, that's right, for some reason "women don't want blood, they are all peaceful" narrative is repeated over and over again. It made them all bland and illogical. Even Alys, like other women in this season, is just another smallfolk champion because "women want peace, men are violent". Seriously, why can't women be just people? You know, have flaws, desires and bad habits?
The only main character that got fair treatment turned out to be Aegon, and I suspect that happened thanks to incredible work of the actor Tom Glynn-Carney. Because other characters just don't make sense, so he must be an exception. I mean, deaths don't have any effect on characters, previous motivations were forgotten or replaced with prophecy stuff. This season feels like a huge filler because nothing has consequences and weight, we see the same scenes over again, and the show refuses to show both sides of the story equally bad.
I don't know if season 3, even with incredible writers and the help of GRRM, will be able to get out of this hole. I think the damage have been made and it is useless to hope that the story will become better, only if not on the condition that they ignore season 2 almost completely.
This episode deserves 2/10 just because of the colossal damage they did to the whole story& message by ruining Alicent and how they handled Daemon& Rhaena's arcs. The season as a whole 5,-8 or 6/10 .
When it comes to writing women, Hollywood always half-asses the concept of what motivations a woman could have. They simply do not want to put the time in to develop female characters. I am glad the technology is becoming more available in terms of the everyday person having the ability to create films and tv shows because; this will be the only way women will be able to be more developed in future stories.
Even when they have a woman at the helm like "The Acolyte," they drop the ball.
I agree about a lot here but I thought the episode couldve redeemed everything with Daemon and Aemonds big fight here... Damon's season long exile, Rhaenyra' kinda half-massed existence for the entire season... All could have been paid off with that battle under God's Eye.
The writers are milking it to reach four seasons and playing it safe. That's why its only 8 episodes. Theres not a ton of story and they want it to be more than a "mini series" but 3 seasons with more action would have been better.
A big act like the one Daemon's about to do with Aemond would've been a perfect end to a kinda of tepid season. Still good, maybe great at some points, but definitely not Season 1, just because there was so much to do
Love this discussion. For me both encounters were improbable and useless…the last one more so. Both conversations stated the obvious and I thought it was ridiculous to ask for peace in both scenarios. Royal Blood had been spilt on both sides so war was inevitable .
I also agree with you guys in that it seems like the writers are afraid to write the women as true villains, or having villainous intent; they always have to seem like an antihero or “temporarily” making the wrong choice based on emotion when that’s just not the case and that’s not compelling to watch . At this point it would make sense for both Alicent and Rhaenyra to be ruthless for power and making all moves necessary to win for their side. I side eyed the entire last conversation between those two 😂😂😂 Like we get it, they can act great!!! But can you give them better materiel to act with! Geesh!
PS but then again….they just wrote Aemond as a cartoonish villain in the finale & Daemon went on a 7 week spiritual retreat so maybe they just can’t do complexity….
They not telling the STORY THE MAIN STORY THE MORAL OF THE STORY BUT THEIR OWN AND ITS NOT IMPACTFUL BECAUSE ITS NOT THE TRUTH they actually minimizing their own story in season 1 to season 2 in season 1 alicent and rhaenyra are more protective, jace is more strong, aegon was a piece of shit than he being now and they telling us that the war is basically POINTLESS BY MENTIONING HIS PROBLEMS lets us come to our own conclusion about this i mean they just compltely disappointed me with how they telling the story instead of GEORGE RR MARTIN ATORY AND FIRE AND BLOOD intead they contradicting, the war is weak because the reasons isnt valuable enough im just saying even they minimize the strategies of these characters they just being ruthless or foolish or wreckless instead of adding strategy in their actions like rhaenyra having many son because the war was coming.. why it was good for daemon to suggest marriage with his niece and bring back glory to their house targaryen.. even aemond action burning sharp point which is an ally to the blacks they dont show us that hw trying to draw them out.. but they dont show us the strategy even tyland with them triachy is foolish i can watch a movie like house party and be more entertained im just saying uts dissatisfying to see these wite walkers and knight king its dumb
Very poorly…I don’t know why, instead of keeping both ladies true to character they are trying to make Alicent and Rhaenyra non resolute and indecisive. I don’t like how they changed Alicent into this meek pawn on the chess board instead of the main chess player. Write them as the ruthless, shameless, calculating, manipulative characters as they are intended to be. This idea of this war getting out of hand solely because of patriarchy is taking away from the story
yall better let that cat share their hotd thoughts 🤣
honestly rhaenyra was the weakest point of this season for me. i just wanted her to get angry! like foreal foreal angry. not just mad enough to make fierce faces. the greens stole her throne, killed her son, and sent somebody to murder her in her bed. and that was after alicent spent years making her life hell in king's landing by constantly wanting to see her kids directly after they'd been born (knowing the pains of childbirth mind you), convincing her kids to fear rhaenyra's kids, and sh*t talking her to sir crispy (who lowkey got a really good monologue in the finale ngl).
instead rhaenyra was so focused on being kind that she didn't do half as much as she could've or should've. her whole thing in the finale with alicent just left me even more unimpressed.
well yes
Yes🎉
This obsession with making all the characters grey went super bad. Just let characters do good and bad things like normal people but don’t try and construct it to make it your desired shade of grey. So bizarre that everything in this show got turned into an accident so they could take full responsibility off of all the characters. That’s ridiculous. I can like a character who does evil things… I don’t like an incompetent character who just made a stupid mistake. That’s pathetic
I think the tie ends work for people that maybe haven’t watched GOT yet. I have talked to a few people who haven’t yet and watching HOD
The throw alicent character to the toiler LOL
To put it simply, the show doesn’t know what the fans want and they don’t know what to do with the central characters, especially female characters. I WANT THE FEMALE RAGE. 😡
Have they read the books or nah ?
@@benadek6703 only one of us has, so we try to avoid spoilers
Did I like the finally? Hell no!!! The show is based on the Dance of the dragon; everything that was leading up to the fall of the dragons was covered in the first season, this season should have HEAVILY FOCUSED ON the dragons and their riders. If they were going to cut or switch characters that will have a big impact on the plot of the story, than there was no reason that Rhaena/Nettles should have only got three 30 sec scenes of her just running haphazardly along the cliff sides, then a brief glimpse of a lackluster view of sheepstealer. Why Otto Hightowers meeting with the Tyroshi pirates was giving to Tyland Lannister in so many cringey unfunny scenes? I don’t know 😮Those scenes was a waste. I would have much rather have seen scenes with the dragon seeds learning how to speak old Valarian , how to properly ride their dragons. Instead we get Rhaenyra mawling over the consequences of this war. We get it! Innocent lives will be lost. They are overemphasizing a point that’s clearly obvious. Innocent lives have already been lost, like her son Luke, Aegons son Jaeharys, all the men Cristin Cole murdered who wouldn’t bend the knee to the greens….etc. Everything should be in preparation to this war and it should be on sight, that’s including Alicent in Rhaenyra. Any old love they once had for each other should have been out the window the moment kinslaying came into the picture. Whether it was Alicent or Rhaenyra direct order, those deaths were on their hands and I feel like the writers are trying so hard to write those characters in particular in a way that elevates them from all blame and I don’t like that
Wasn’t a huge fan of the episode but I feel like it’s cause I had such high expectations from season 1 after a disappointing season 8. Hoping season 3 is much better!
I was hoping for some action but all we got was a recap of what we’ve already seen. 😢
They have to re-do GoT starting from season 7
ageon didnt just SA, he had bastard children all over flee bottom in fighting rings
Any tlk of poor writing on this show is asinine!
Yup. The scenes are too rushed, and that's why the dialogues don't make much sense and they are not interesting.
DANY LITERALLY BROUGHT DRAGONS BACK AND SHE FOUGHT THE NIGHT KING ON DROGON. But I agree 😂 it’s very corny for them to do callbacks to GoT knowing how it ended.
I’d put money on Mysaria having Otto.
They already tried to do that with Ceresi. We don't want another her. I'm okay with Alicent having remorse. Its not coming from left field. She realized that her wants were never hers and her spiritual awakening lead to her to betray her family and she didn't wear her green dress.
No this is complete character assassination. Alicent already wasn’t like cersei. She had a moral compass that she consistently betrayed in the pursuit of the preservation of her children. Alicent’s motivations trauma life and children are all irrelevant because of Rhaenyra. She chose Rhaenyra over everyone in her life. This is terrible inconsistent writing.
@@Meme-jo7uj No, it makes complete sense. The whole season was Alicent reflecting on how her sons were not good men and all she did her entire life was people please the men in her family. That includes her father, husband, and sons. She finally took a stance for HERself. That meant showing remorse to the only close relationship she had outside these men and trying to right her wrongs. Alicent isn't Ceresi, she isn't this villian that wants power. She was only a villian because she was told to be one. She didn't chose Rhaenyra. She chose herself.
@@Karla-ok9qd she agreed to the murder of her children. Rhaenyra says a son for a son and Alicent doesn’t even bring up Jaehaerys. Alicent betrayed everyone in her family. Her innocent son sweet brother and allies who pledged to her son. Alicent’s character is inconsistent. This is not explainable AT ALL.
@@Meme-jo7uj Did you miss the part where it wasn't Rhaenyra who ordered the kill? Alicent didn't agree to kill all her children just Aegon because she understood that she NEEDS to do it. In order to secure her throne and unite the kingdom. Rhaenyra explained to her why and Alicent agreed because there isn't another way. Aegon would have to do the same to Rhaenyra.
@@Karla-ok9qd Alicent already knows this. He children would have to be sacrificed to facilitate Rhaenyra’s reign. This is why she structures her entire life to prevent this from happening. All the character development motivations and time has been thrown in the trash for things we as the audience already knows. Alicent agree to this is character assassination. She is a terrible mother but she did love her children. She betrayed everyone she knew. This is sad you are trying to justify dumb writing. Ts doesn’t make sense.
Aegon is a wicked son. Nothing about him makes me feel sorry for him.
I think with me the reason it's hard to have sympathy for Aegon is because so far he hasn't confronted hismself and what he did. Even Alicent when she starts feeling oppression as a woman, she doesn't show any remorse(from what I can remember) for covering up Aegon's actions. Then you compare them to Daemon who groomed his niece, he's at least a point now where he's no longer trying to exert his will over Rhaenyra and he's instead submitting to her.
Daemon killed his wife and he doesn't regret it
Well, that's because that was used to villainize Aegon, same with Daemon and Rhea. And with both instances, it's never mentioned again
I loved this episode. One thing people need to stop doing is stop comparing HOTD to Game of
Thrones. Stop having so many expectations and just take the show for what it is 🤷🏽♀️
Hand on heart ,I for one I'm taking the show as is and draw not comparison. HOTD the writing is terrible, this was a season of nothingness that could have been covered in two episodes. We keep hoping for intrigue and a showcasing of an incredible story and are left wanting everytime
And the show is bad even ignoring GOT.
@@Em35nyc absolutely
@@Kaelo. Right. Honestly I'm looking at it as completely different show. That's the only way for me not to have so many expectations/get disappointed.
Would be easier if they stopped trying to tie it to GoT