Big topic. I'm working as a free lanced author for many, many years - and now started with doing animations - for free or just for fun. But I guess the main problem is, that often artist work isn't really paid well enough and respected enough. At least in my country. To be able to work as an artist is wonderful and I never regret it- but it's so hard to survive.
After a lifetime of technical freelancing in film I would say the answer to this question is NO. As a *commercial* artist, knowing your place in the market and negotiation is just as important a skill as pushing pixels around. At least demand expenses, as Grant said, *and* a notional fee, just to demonstrate, that for all the fun it looks, it's still a business. To demonstrate that to yourself, as much as them. A story. I was once working in a regular freelance job with no prospects for career development, and had to find a way of getting out of it, to branch out, without being surly. I'd been in the job for about 2 years. So I had a brilliant idea. I rang up the regular clients and said: "I'm terribly sorry, but I'm going to have to double my rates," thinking that would be the end of it. "Fine", they said.. "No problem at all!" The air went blue in my flat, that afternoon. Two b***dy years.
There are two kinds of working for free - the first is doing favours for friends, the second is exploitative, where someone from a business is looking to get brownie points for cutting the budget for something. The first kind can be a nice thing to do, provided your friends will do favours for you in return. The second kind, I never got any jobs from working for free - all the jobs I got were through my UA-cam channel and through relationships I struck up on social media, not things I did for free. If someone asks you to work for exposure, remember people can die of exposure. Spend time on your portfolio, your UA-cam channel and chatting to people instead.
Hey, i am a civil engineer and have a full time job, but i don't enjoy it as much as working in blender. But after work(drawing reinforcement plans) when i try to do some art, my mind is tired and i keep delaying my project. So i go running or play some sport. I really want to work, like you do, but don't have the brain energy. :/ at least i watch some youtube tutorials on blender sometimes to stay in touch. where do you get the energy?
Yes that's very true. It can be tough after a long teaching day for me to get motivated. Exercise and diet are key in my opinion. Sounds odd but I dont eat any refined carbohydrates so no added sugar or similar no sweets no caffeine... It means I generally have lots of energy and have a good sleeping pattern but it's not for everyone :)
On principal I don't agree on working for free, and I've never asked anyone to produce something for me without compensation at all. I did take on freelance projects for relatively low price as entry points. This worked best for me, as I got to secure individuals and companies as references, and they do spread my name in their own circle of network. I got paid around $350 for a board game prototype for my first game dev gig which took around 2 weeks to make, and has steadily increased the rate as more work came in. If you're working for exposure might as well build your own portfolio and post around social medias. But I'm a programmer rather than a modeler / artist, so my view probably differ. p/s : I love your overall tone & voice, must be nice having you as a teacher.
Thanks. Yes I agree. I think as much as you can avoid working for free but for me it's a never say never thing and it can sometimes be fruitful. It sounds like you will do well
Honestly I just feel like the people asking such questions are more-or-less expecting a fixed process to succeed as a free lance artist. The thing with occupations like free lance art, indie game devs, youtubers or basically any form of an entrepreneur is that there isn't a fixed "do this to succeed" trick. Something that worked for me might not necessarily work for you. Ultimately it just comes down to using experience to take the right chances and that experience has to be gained on the field, not from some random video on the internet. I guess the unfortunate truth of free lancing is that it , to a greater extent than other jobs, comes down to luck and chance, but that might just be the cost of not having to go to college or job interviews, possessing greater levels of freedom and being your own boss. PS : I'm not a freelance artist, nor do I have any experience. This is just the way I have come to understand the situation based on what I've seen on the net.
Heard the bullshit from I don't know how many companies who want talent for zero dollars. Work for free and you're works worth nothing. Ask them the question, ' would you do your job for free?' Whoever you work for use a written contract that clearly states how much and when you will be paid. Relying on a handshake and nothing in writing is a big mistake.
Mods for games are an excellent way to get into the game industries for example. Lots of people have gone that way. It´s also an easy way to stay motivated (steady progress together with other people. If the mod is live then people are waiting for updates etc). Getting to know people is probably more important than actually doing free work (being able to show your work is also important though). Non profit work is usually fine, I´d start to worry when everyone else is getting payed except me.
Exposure is useful only if you have your own brand, if not, it will NOT be you getting the exposure, but the company, because the company will own ALL your work and you will own NOTHING.
This is just my opinion, but I don't see how working for free will get you any more "exposure" than just creating things because you want to and posting images of your work on social networks such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or sites such as ArtStation, CG Society, DeviantART, Tumblr, Behance, or other art portfolio sites. This is a sad and true statement, but anyone WORTH your time or business is already looking in those places for potential contracting. If you are serious and mean business you aren't just sitting around hoping someone drops into your lap or you bump into someone at a coffee-shop. It's our responsibility as artists to market ourselves to be seen, and it is the responsibility of the customers to seek us out. Of course, doing work for charity purposes is a lot more rewarding and can serve the same purpose. Not only are you providing your services to help someone in need, but you are getting publicity and exposure also. Even if your skills are at the novice-level and are low-quality, your TIME is just as valuable as a pro that has been in the business for years. Remember. People are asking you to do something that they CANNOT do. If they contacted you because they saw your work somewhere, they already know the quality. If you are looking at yourself as a contractor, then the plumber-analogy is a perfect explanation. If you don't see the value in your work, no one else will. Working for free is letting the horses out of the barn and it is *VERY* difficult to round them up again. Always DEMAND reimbursement for your work regardless of what it is unless you are offering it for charity or helping someone out as a favor. It should be whatever you feel it is worth for your time. The same way that a comedian never gives the microphone to a heckler when they are on stage, as a contractor you *NEVER* give customers the power to determine the value of your work.
I don't think there's someone who's never done something for free, but when it comes to any company or corporate ... FREE shouldn't exist. Working or contributing for an open community is a good thing for bringing people closer, making your ideas live and evolve through many people, restore human faith... or even teach you how to do team work and that is a good thing for everyone inside of the community. But FREE in a business community is the most wrong thing someone will ever do and there are several reasons for it: 1) FREE represents an issue on companies related to the tax reductions, relationship with unions and etc.. 2) FREE will underestimate professional labor and the companies will never schedule you in any professional project 3) FREE will ruin professional balances on prices, as well as will put under risk any investment made by professionals. 4) FREE won't justify your Time, Bills, Food or even your family expectations. If someone wants to go forward on business community, he must learn first how business and professionals move and that means to learn the meaning of the word "DEMO", as well as charging prices or their methods... otherwise that means creating chaos and turning everyone against you. Remember that fair professionals compete in quality and quantity of their labor, but not on FREE one. Personally... I do believe in open communities and in their good spirit, but although my contribution will never be noticed there... because people never read about who contributes in open communities, i still feel glad inside of me for having contributed a little in what i do believe.
I never worked for free, but that's because I brought with me some of the customers from my old job. But I have some friends who did and some others (with no prior exposure or experience) who didn't. Some of these guys are way beyond me, some are at my level and some are not so good yet. So I think it's mostly a matter of luck. I don't think you can plan it. "I will do some work for free to make a name and then I will have work" Or "I will never work for free because my skill is decent or above, so I will find work" It's pure luck, unless you do what I did. That's my opinion at least.
Grant Abbitt My pleasure, I just hope that my comment will push some people to actually do something instead of overthinking for years. I was always fascinated from the fact that some of the most creative people that I know are immovable like mountains... By the way, I don't know if my feedback from way back has anything to do with it, but I noticed a massive improvement on your channel. What you do now is a massive help for any new artist. Teaching blender and how to "wherever" texture, is generally accepted as nice, but my opinion is that it produces mindless robots with no creative thinking, most of the time if you don't show them how to do it they will not be able to... And what they do will be something like a copy without flavour. But the insight you give them now, I think is priceless. But I was always thinking that teaching a program or a craft or whatever is imprisonment. Teaching the methodology of approaching certain programs, tools, or art in general is meaningful and it actually guides the person without blocking his/her mind inside the teacher's style of art or workflow (although workflow is kind of ok)
This is such a sensitive topic that can make people fight with each other. Well, for me work for free and work for cheap never really helped, I guess that just my case, unfortunate enough to get some sort of 'unworthy' client. But there are good circumstances where you should work for free. It all depends. So, I'm learning the basics blender again as months did not touch, perhaps later I'll join your competitions when I'm somewhat proficient.
It's like that with pilots. Pilots love to fly and they love to fly bigger and bigger planes. So they work for $10 an hour flying hoping to build hours and experience so they can gravitate up to an airline pilot making $100k for 20 hours a week of work. Supply and demand like you say. Reminds me of a boat tour I took on a Florida river and the tour guide was pointing out multi million dollar homes. One was by a big wig who ran a garbage company. So you can do a thing that lots of people like doing and be poor all your life, but enjoying it, or doing something nasty and dirty, something nobody wants to mess with and hope one day you can be rich enough to do the things you enjoy.
I work on indy game and work on models in same time, but my models is low poly im no pro, this chanel help me lot....thank you again......im programer.....but lot stuff i build alone.....and thank you again.....
I think you remember me from other comments I made. IF you are offering a free job, I am a candidate. If you think, I can be of any help, please let me know. I can start any time, you want me to start.
Yes very tough and like i say you have to take your own situation into account. Sometimes working for no pay can yield further benefits but if you cant spare the time then that's not always possible. If you have a family to support and you are trying to go freelance and just starting out it's an extremely hard avenue. If you are experienced and you have a family then hopefully you would be able to find work without having to work for no pay. Thanks for you comment :)
Big topic. I'm working as a free lanced author for many, many years - and now started with doing animations - for free or just for fun. But I guess the main problem is, that often artist work isn't really paid well enough and respected enough. At least in my country. To be able to work as an artist is wonderful and I never regret it- but it's so hard to survive.
Yes indeed
After a lifetime of technical freelancing in film I would say the answer to this question is NO. As a *commercial* artist, knowing your place in the market and negotiation is just as important a skill as pushing pixels around. At least demand expenses, as Grant said, *and* a notional fee, just to demonstrate, that for all the fun it looks, it's still a business. To demonstrate that to yourself, as much as them.
A story. I was once working in a regular freelance job with no prospects for career development, and had to find a way of getting out of it, to branch out, without being surly. I'd been in the job for about 2 years. So I had a brilliant idea. I rang up the regular clients and said: "I'm terribly sorry, but I'm going to have to double my rates," thinking that would be the end of it.
"Fine", they said.. "No problem at all!" The air went blue in my flat, that afternoon. Two b***dy years.
an awesome point and well made. Thanks for your story Robin :)
There are two kinds of working for free - the first is doing favours for friends, the second is exploitative, where someone from a business is looking to get brownie points for cutting the budget for something. The first kind can be a nice thing to do, provided your friends will do favours for you in return. The second kind, I never got any jobs from working for free - all the jobs I got were through my UA-cam channel and through relationships I struck up on social media, not things I did for free. If someone asks you to work for exposure, remember people can die of exposure. Spend time on your portfolio, your UA-cam channel and chatting to people instead.
"people can die of exposure" :) nice. Thanks for your comment :)
Hey, i am a civil engineer and have a full time job, but i don't enjoy it as much as working in blender. But after work(drawing reinforcement plans) when i try to do some art, my mind is tired and i keep delaying my project.
So i go running or play some sport. I really want to work, like you do, but don't have the brain energy. :/ at least i watch some youtube tutorials on blender sometimes to stay in touch. where do you get the energy?
Yes that's very true. It can be tough after a long teaching day for me to get motivated. Exercise and diet are key in my opinion. Sounds odd but I dont eat any refined carbohydrates so no added sugar or similar no sweets no caffeine... It means I generally have lots of energy and have a good sleeping pattern but it's not for everyone :)
missing caffeine is not an option... :D but the rest i could agree. :)
On principal I don't agree on working for free, and I've never asked anyone to produce something for me without compensation at all.
I did take on freelance projects for relatively low price as entry points. This worked best for me, as I got to secure individuals and companies as references, and they do spread my name in their own circle of network. I got paid around $350 for a board game prototype for my first game dev gig which took around 2 weeks to make, and has steadily increased the rate as more work came in.
If you're working for exposure might as well build your own portfolio and post around social medias.
But I'm a programmer rather than a modeler / artist, so my view probably differ.
p/s : I love your overall tone & voice, must be nice having you as a teacher.
Thanks. Yes I agree. I think as much as you can avoid working for free but for me it's a never say never thing and it can sometimes be fruitful. It sounds like you will do well
Honestly I just feel like the people asking such questions are more-or-less expecting a fixed process to succeed as a free lance artist. The thing with occupations like free lance art, indie game devs, youtubers or basically any form of an entrepreneur is that there isn't a fixed "do this to succeed" trick. Something that worked for me might not necessarily work for you.
Ultimately it just comes down to using experience to take the right chances and that experience has to be gained on the field, not from some random video on the internet. I guess the unfortunate truth of free lancing is that it , to a greater extent than other jobs, comes down to luck and chance, but that might just be the cost of not having to go to college or job interviews, possessing greater levels of freedom and being your own boss.
PS : I'm not a freelance artist, nor do I have any experience. This is just the way I have come to understand the situation based on what I've seen on the net.
I think that's a very insightful point thank you.
Heard the bullshit from I don't know how many companies who want talent for zero dollars. Work for free and you're works worth nothing. Ask them the question, ' would you do your job for free?' Whoever you work for use a written contract that clearly states how much and when you will be paid. Relying on a handshake and nothing in writing is a big mistake.
Mods for games are an excellent way to get into the game industries for example. Lots of people have gone that way. It´s also an easy way to stay motivated (steady progress together with other people. If the mod is live then people are waiting for updates etc).
Getting to know people is probably more important than actually doing free work (being able to show your work is also important though). Non profit work is usually fine, I´d start to worry when everyone else is getting payed except me.
True. Mods for games is something i have never looked into but other people have mentioned. I better start looking into it more :)
Exposure is useful only if you have your own brand, if not, it will NOT be you getting the exposure, but the company, because the company will own ALL your work and you will own NOTHING.
Amazing.... Love from PAKISTAN...
:)
This is just my opinion, but I don't see how working for free will get you any more "exposure" than just creating things because you want to and posting images of your work on social networks such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or sites such as ArtStation, CG Society, DeviantART, Tumblr, Behance, or other art portfolio sites. This is a sad and true statement, but anyone WORTH your time or business is already looking in those places for potential contracting. If you are serious and mean business you aren't just sitting around hoping someone drops into your lap or you bump into someone at a coffee-shop. It's our responsibility as artists to market ourselves to be seen, and it is the responsibility of the customers to seek us out.
Of course, doing work for charity purposes is a lot more rewarding and can serve the same purpose. Not only are you providing your services to help someone in need, but you are getting publicity and exposure also.
Even if your skills are at the novice-level and are low-quality, your TIME is just as valuable as a pro that has been in the business for years. Remember. People are asking you to do something that they CANNOT do. If they contacted you because they saw your work somewhere, they already know the quality.
If you are looking at yourself as a contractor, then the plumber-analogy is a perfect explanation. If you don't see the value in your work, no one else will. Working for free is letting the horses out of the barn and it is *VERY* difficult to round them up again.
Always DEMAND reimbursement for your work regardless of what it is unless you are offering it for charity or helping someone out as a favor. It should be whatever you feel it is worth for your time. The same way that a comedian never gives the microphone to a heckler when they are on stage, as a contractor you *NEVER* give customers the power to determine the value of your work.
Thanks and well put.
I don't think there's someone who's never done something for free, but when it comes to any company or corporate ... FREE shouldn't exist.
Working or contributing for an open community is a good thing for bringing people closer, making your ideas live and evolve through many people, restore human faith... or even teach you how to do team work and that is a good thing for everyone inside of the community.
But FREE in a business community is the most wrong thing someone will ever do and there are several reasons for it:
1) FREE represents an issue on companies related to the tax reductions, relationship with unions and etc..
2) FREE will underestimate professional labor and the companies will never schedule you in any professional project
3) FREE will ruin professional balances on prices, as well as will put under risk any investment made by professionals.
4) FREE won't justify your Time, Bills, Food or even your family expectations.
If someone wants to go forward on business community, he must learn first how business and professionals move and that means to learn the meaning of the word "DEMO", as well as charging prices or their methods... otherwise that means creating chaos and turning everyone against you. Remember that fair professionals compete in quality and quantity of their labor, but not on FREE one.
Personally... I do believe in open communities and in their good spirit, but although my contribution will never be noticed there... because people never read about who contributes in open communities, i still feel glad inside of me for having contributed a little in what i do believe.
very good point. Thanks very much for your opinion :)
I never worked for free, but that's because I brought with me some of the customers from my old job.
But I have some friends who did and some others (with no prior exposure or experience) who didn't.
Some of these guys are way beyond me, some are at my level and some are not so good yet.
So I think it's mostly a matter of luck. I don't think you can plan it. "I will do some work for free to make a name and then I will have work"
Or
"I will never work for free because my skill is decent or above, so I will find work"
It's pure luck, unless you do what I did.
That's my opinion at least.
good point and thanks for your input
Grant Abbitt My pleasure, I just hope that my comment will push some people to actually do something instead of overthinking for years.
I was always fascinated from the fact that some of the most creative people that I know are immovable like mountains...
By the way, I don't know if my feedback from way back has anything to do with it, but I noticed a massive improvement on your channel.
What you do now is a massive help for any new artist.
Teaching blender and how to "wherever" texture, is generally accepted as nice, but my opinion is that it produces mindless robots with no creative thinking, most of the time if you don't show them how to do it they will not be able to... And what they do will be something like a copy without flavour.
But the insight you give them now, I think is priceless.
But I was always thinking that teaching a program or a craft or whatever is imprisonment.
Teaching the methodology of approaching certain programs, tools, or art in general is meaningful and it actually guides the person without blocking his/her mind inside the teacher's style of art or workflow (although workflow is kind of ok)
@@vegurion2 yes indeed I take all feedback on board so yes you will most definitely have influenced the channel
This is such a sensitive topic that can make people fight with each other. Well, for me work for free and work for cheap never really helped, I guess that just my case, unfortunate enough to get some sort of 'unworthy' client. But there are good circumstances where you should work for free. It all depends. So, I'm learning the basics blender again as months did not touch, perhaps later I'll join your competitions when I'm somewhat proficient.
Yes it is tough and does not always yield results and I can definitely understand why someone would have a rule of not to work for free
It's like that with pilots. Pilots love to fly and they love to fly bigger and bigger planes. So they work for $10 an hour flying hoping to build hours and experience so they can gravitate up to an airline pilot making $100k for 20 hours a week of work. Supply and demand like you say. Reminds me of a boat tour I took on a Florida river and the tour guide was pointing out multi million dollar homes.
One was by a big wig who ran a garbage company. So you can do a thing that lots of people like doing and be poor all your life, but enjoying it, or doing something nasty and dirty, something nobody wants to mess with and hope one day you can be rich enough to do the things you enjoy.
Yes that's kind of how I see e the industry
I work on indy game and work on models in same time, but my models is low poly im no pro, this chanel help me lot....thank you again......im programer.....but lot stuff i build alone.....and thank you again.....
Thanks
really interesting topic
Yes a big debate in the creative industry.
I think you remember me from other comments I made. IF you are offering a free job, I am a candidate.
If you think, I can be of any help, please let me know. I can start any time, you want me to start.
Thanks. I'm not hiring at the moment but who knows what the future holds
@@grabbitt Can you please suggest what avenues of Blender are more promising?
I will be grateful for guidence.
@@syedrizvi6408 tough to day. There are many avenues which are profitable it's more about how good you are at them
What if you have a child Grant, Surely you cant work for free then right?
Yes very tough and like i say you have to take your own situation into account. Sometimes working for no pay can yield further benefits but if you cant spare the time then that's not always possible. If you have a family to support and you are trying to go freelance and just starting out it's an extremely hard avenue. If you are experienced and you have a family then hopefully you would be able to find work without having to work for no pay. Thanks for you comment :)