The more I grow older, the more I start to appreciate Webern. He is unrightfully treated as coldhearted one, and yet he's the only one who uses the twelve tone in a heartly manner.
This is the work that the NY Philharmonic performed at a concert after which John Cage and Morton Feldman met (in the lobby of the auditorium after the performance). They had both stepped out simultaneously to avoid hearing the Rachmaninoff work that was on the program after it. They met in the lobby and introduced themselves, becoming fast friends when they found they were both composers with similar interests.
I have listened to this opus for many many years and still find it enthralling captivating etc. i dont have to know how it does what it does it just does and that's enough.
so schön, wohltuend, in dieser hyper-aufgeregten Zeit einmal etwas tragendes, solides, in sich geschlossenes und daher "stimmiges" zu hören. Was der Meister sich da vor 90 Jahren getraut hat... dem kommen viele zeitgenössische Komponisten nicht mal im Ansatz nach. Aus einer kompositorischen Beschränkung solch zauberhafte und verzaubernde Musik entwickeln zu können... grosse, ganz grosse Kunst.
I prefer Berg myself, but I think Webern get enough recognition by music lovers. It is no exaggeration to say that his work is the foundation of today's compositional style. The real problem is that so-called " Atonal Music " is not accepted by the general audience.
So many feelings in one music. I am very "emotionaly influenced" by music and oh my god, wasn't this something. Loneliness, Agony, unsettlement, anxiety, fear, I almost cried in the last bit. This aching feeling in my heart, hard to breathe. It's a very... weird, feeling. A very interesting experience. I loved it. Music that moves your soul is the best.
"The more binding art is to itself, the richer, denser, and more unified its works, the more it tends toward affirmation [of whatever stamp] by suggesting that its own qualities are those of a world existing in itself beyond art." Aesthetic Theory, Theodor W. Adorno, Translated by Robert Hullot-Kentor, University of Minnesota Press, Ninth printing, 2020, P. 160.
Meaningless and pedantic. How about Webern is a first rank genius. We are so lucky to have had him. His works bring me joy and serenity. Ty G-d for bringing him into my life.
6:34 Meine liebste Stelle :) Ich liebe das Stück insgesamt. Sehr erfrischend zwischendurch Webern zu hören und auf meinem Mozart der Jugend Schönberg zu verzichten.
So beautiful! This is the thing I'm intensely pre occupied with, the varying combinations of austerity in music, otherworldly Ness in Nature, space, oblique Ness and the vague emotional movement toward lyricism. Been working with this all my life, now in my sixties.🎹☺️
Extremely elegant. For me, a pointillistic opium dream of shards of light piercing through pitch black darkness. The energy curves and "rhetorical traction" are masterful.
@@CHUNGAandNANOOK Rhetorical traction refers to the basic materials in a piece being used and developed throughout in a coherent and convincing manner. When people say things like "there isn't a note out of place in this piece," what they're getting at is its high degree of rhetorical traction.
This joint is straight flames. It's a little known fact that after dropping Opus 21 on the clubs of Vienna, Webern started work on a Collab with Mobb Deep. A limited run of white labels was released with Webern spitting 12 tone rhymes under the pseudonym Spidah Webz. Unfortunately the mid 90s wasn't ready for retrograde rhymes.
As I'm going through the complete works of Webern, and getting more used to his musical language, I'm finding a curious phenomenon of being emotionally affected by this work as I might with nondodecaphonic music- this is what Webern intended, and it's an exciting new frontier in listening I hope everyone can get a taste of.
Everyone won't but a few of us do. But everyone can feel the haunting of tonality that he evokes and they fear it instead of finding solice a new world. All they can confront is their fear.
Anton Webern's music feels crystalline, fragile to me. Shards and fragments appearing and disappearing again. I also think about what Thomas Pynchon wrote about him: This rainy morning, in the quiet, it seems that Gustav's German Dialectic has come to its end. He has just had the word, all the way from Vienna along some musicians' grapevine, that Anton Webern is dead. 'Shot in May, by the Americans. Senseless, accidental if you believe in accidents - some mess cook from North Carolina, some late draftee with a.45 he hardly knew how to use, too late for WW II, but not for Webern. The excuse for raiding the house was that Webern's brother was in the black market. Who isn't? Do you know what kind of myth that's going to make in a thousand years? The young barbarians coming in to murder the Last European, standing at the far end of what'd been going on since Bach, an expansion of music's polymorphous perversity till all notes were truly equal at last....Where was there to go after Webern?'" (440-41)
Thank you so much for this comment - I love Thomas Pynchon and Webern. I always think of this symphony while reading Gravity's Rainbow. It feels so fitting ... the absolute desolation of the Pokler episode (3:41), humorous moments like Slothrop's hot air balloon pie fight (6:34) and of course the impending rocket (7:40).
Precisely this. Webern is like both Mahler (and later on Feldman) condensed into tiny bits of perfected Gold. There is an entire eternity in every single note Webern chooses, in a good way it feels ten times as long as it is. Webern's music takes you into another dimension that few artists achieve.
@@HastenforthedawmSo true. Crystallized perfection in every gesture. It’s probably the closest musical representation of still life. Like an ideal moment trapped in amber.
This piece is the perfect precursor to composers like Feldman, Cage, Stockhausen, Boulez and many more. You can hear everything from Gruppen, Marteau sans maitre to Cages number pieces and Feldman's For Phillip Guston! :)
Webern didn't influence Feldman on techniques - Feldman greatly disliked the constraints of techniques such as twelve tone and he was always very free-flowing and non-inhibiting with the way he wrote. Feldman was more inspired by Weberns orchestration and harmonies (which are one of the most overlooked parts of Weberns work), Weberns music for him reflected his personal goal of making music that has an ethereal, serene quality to it best from the three major figures of Vienna.
Yes, the harmonies, sonorities and they both share a certain ebb and flow of musical development. Early Feldman was heavily influenced by Webern, this kind of surrene textured Webern can certainly be found all of Feldman's chamber work :)
"It’s a famous story that John Cage and Morton Feldman met when both were walking out of a concert of the New York Philharmonic in 1950. They had just heard Webern’s Symphony, Op. 21 and neither cared to stay for the Tchaikovsky that was next on the program."
Anton Webern:Szimfónia Op.21 1. Camminando tranquillamente 00:00 2. Variációk 06:03 Téma: Molto tranquillo I.variáció: Vivace II.variáció: Molto vivace III.variáció: Di nuovo piú moderato IV.variáció: Estremamente silenzioso V.variáció: Molto vivace VI. variáció: Marcia moderatamente, non elien VII. variáció: Un poco piú ampio Coda Drezdai Állami Zenekar Vezényel:Giuseppe Sinopoli
This piece is concdered by musicologists as the first one in which dodecaphonic serialism found a coherence betwwen the form and the writing. In the previous trio op; 20, Webern made use of sonata form, inherited from the tonal world. here, he uses a canonic form well in line with the serial handling.
@@talcdebebe7553 It is in fact more complex than tht. The first movement of the trio op. 20 was a clear sonata form, but Webern felt more or lrdss consciously thet there was a kind of contradiction between the satonât for aenf the rues os serialism which tender to call for architecture of their own. So, in the first movement of op. 21,Webern actually kept some overarching ideas of the sonata form - the repetition double bar is the most obvious one. But the serail organization controls the form, which was not the case in op. 20, and will be even more evident n op.22, 24, 28. This ide of a direct contrl of the serailism on the form canot be found rither in Schoenberg"s or in Berg's works, which make use of othe rpriciples - sometimes quite complex for instance in the late Berg;
The second movement makes much more sense in this performance than in any others I’ve heard. Lovely score. And isn’t there a quote from Sibelius 4 at m 56? If intended, or even unconscious, that would be sweet.
I highly doubt it. Atonal composers considered Sibelius to literally be the worst composer ever. His influence has instead given us most of the great composers of the 21st century, Rautavaara, Saariaho and Wuorinen (who was highly influenced by Finnish culture despite being American).
This is serialism + pointilism, which Webern was the master. If you liked this, Alfred Schnittke would be the one to listen to next, his Concerto Grosso No. 1.
Now ,all dat said -one asks how do performers feel when asked to play a single note that is part of a whole and not phrases but trajectories of events . It's sad that composers and painters and painters try so little to help anyone who is in a hall where difficult not facile 20th century music is being played . If this was a movie or a horror film one might ask in order to "see " it -what is taking place . It feels like a walk laden ,no fraught with surprises and ...danger .It aint fun like Reich or Norgard or even Gubaidulina .Schnittke is fun but preWW2 Viennese music aint Schubert lieder ! I've been listening to this stuff since college and now I write it myself with lots of microtones and very tonal small glimses of phrases . Bartok is programmed a lot more than 2nd Viennese School . I dig the experience but I always know I'm missing something .A little pot could help the other thing you have to ask is when Webern is supposedly so precise , so correct and perfect what about the thousands of students who followed in the wake of Darmstadt . Maybe some of them hit upon more communicative things to do in 12tone . Rochberg's violin concerto communicates beautifully though I don't know if its serial or not and I'm saddened that he didn't have the conviction to keep at 12tone - burying a child can bring you back to basics . The European composers who migrated to America after 1938 lost family but somehow most of them kept this new game in motion and taught it at the universties -which is why music from 1940 till 1980 sounds like this .When producers realized more bucks could be made putting rock and blues behind scenes movie albums sold big . All the forces point one way to reductivity in art . Hold your boobies and wag your sticks . Invite da yahoos into dee Whitehouse for another 4 years and listen as the Earth moans !
What do you mean? Well, we could consider 'radical' the piece Drei Volkstexte Lieder. (I had the opportunitty to conduct this one some years ago. I was difficult but great!)
It's funny because there's this story - I don't know if it's true - about Feldman leaving the concert right after hearing this piece. Everyone thought he hated it because he didn't even applaud the musicians, but later he explained that he was so inspired by it that he couldn't wait any longer to write music himself.
This is my favorite symphony. I would love it if all symphonies sounded like this. Quiet and thoughtful. When I hear the word "symphony" I think of something bombastic. This is exactly the opposite. Bombast in general should be avoided. (And in politics too...)
You mean ordinate (check spelling) which would make your comment nonsense as chaos is inordinate. Hence the naming of that particular condition with the word "Chaos" or better "Kaos".
I'm 67 and I'm still struggling with 12 tone and atonal music. Any help welcome. Stravinsky, Varese, no problem, but I'm missing the wit in this. I like John Adams, if that's a clue, but I'm sure he's not 12 tone. I can remember tunes that I heard when I was a teenager and haven't heard since, and can even recall the key they are in, I have perfect pitch. Perhaps I'm "Harmony bound"?
Ben, I presume you are not acquainted with late Stravinsky, in which he uses his adoption of Krenek's take on serialism. If you don't know music from the Septet (1952-53) onwards where he begins to adopt various contrapuntal techniques until his first full scale serial work Threni (1958). He even takes on the avant-garde in Movements (1958-59) and more so in the Huxley Orchestral Variations (1963-64). A lot of his later music is hit and miss, and until Threni some of it, like Agon (1953-1957) and Canticum Sacrum (1955) [the third movement 'Surge aqulio' I think is quite ravishing, despite the spare orchestration], has elements directly or indirectly serial. I would start with his last composition The Owl and The Pussycat (1966) then Requiem Canticles (also 1966) which I think is masterpiece. It was performed at his funeral in Venice and is thought to have been his own funeral music, but the commission for it came in handy (he always had his eye on income). Next A Sermon, a Narrative, and a Prayer (1960-61). The CBS recording has Shirley Merrett in fine voice in the last movement. I'm a late Stravinsky fan, in case you didn't realise ;-)
Thank you for your advice, which I intend to follow in time! I have recordings of Agon and Canticum Sacrum, and Three Songs from Shakespeare, from the CBS series.
The idea in 12 tone writing is that each note is meant to be equally as important as any other note. It does that by ordering notes in a row, and creating permutations of that row. Each note is therefore sounded more or less as often as any other note, and the form and rhythm are what drives the piece. The effect is that it frees music of the "constraints" of harmony by assuring each note is equally valid and important. Each note has its own level of importance, and the combination of notes is simple a consequence of the structure. My opinion is that I can really enjoy this music for what it is - math applied to music. I also enjoy the sounds and dissonances that this music creates, and the vigorous controlled structure and rigor of it. But in the end I also think it's a cold sterile dead end which strips the humanity out of music and in that sense it's a perfect mirror of what was happening in the world when this music was being composed.
The description at ua-cam.com/video/Xq2gwuKDPnY/v-deo.html does say: First Movement: Sonata form, with double canon. There are two large sections that are repeated (AABB). The text in the description says it is a statement and development. Does that qualify as sonata form? Interesting question. . .
Not entirely disagreeable. That said, it still sounds like a sonic representation of the unsettling beginnings of schizophrenia. Which makes my first statement equally unsettling. 😆
@@georgeholloway3981 Of course, it has nothing to do with schizophrenia- that was the OP's way of trying "wit". Along the tired lines of, "my cat could play that", etc. which one tends to hear from those for whom music is forever tangential to their comprehension.
@@plekkchand Yes and it's offensive to us with mental disorders. "Unsettling beginnings of schizophrenia" is not a real medical concept, just a bunch of random words put together. The only time I get a comparison to mental disorders is in some of Beethoven's music. I'm pretty sure he had bipolar because many of his pieces sound like a manic episode to me, and scholars say it's very likely. Aside from that I ask people to shut the hell up xD
The first dodecaphonics managed to create a continuity with 19th century romanticism, very obvious in this piece. Later epigonists( Boulez, Stockhausen etc.) sacrificed this to annoying and noisy excentricism.
20c 초반 음악 베베른 - [교향곡] op.21 ★제 3기 [12음 기법] [12음 기법] : [완전한 무조성 음악]을 [성취]하기 위하여 [음렬]을 만들어 [12음을 모두 한번씩 사용]한다는 것이다. 이렇게 해서 만들어진 (음의 나열)을 [＊기본 음렬] 이라고 한다. 기본음렬을 [1)전위] [2)역행] [3)전위역행] 시켜 [철저하기 무조적]이며 [체계화된 음악]을 만드는 작곡 기법이다. [베베른] : 베베른의 작품은 [매우 짧고] [밀도]있으며 [완벽한 형식]을 갖추고 있다. [1920년]대 중반 [이후] : 12음기법 사용 베베른의 음악은 [음정 도약이 심하고] [음색이 자주 변화함] 에 따라 음악의 흐름이 [점들의 연속]처럼 들리는 인상 때문에 [★ 점묘주의] 음악이라고도 불린다. 이때 사용된 12음 기법은 [음의 길이] [음색] [셈여림]으로 [★확대] 된 것이 특징으로 1950년대 이후 [★총렬음악에 큰 영향]을 미쳤다.
Does this music strictly follow a tone row and then repeat that row using different instruments and octaves or does he break that rule? That always seemed like an arbitrary rule. Music like this could be produced with repeating pitches in different octaves not closer than 12 notes apart.
When it comes to Webern there are no arbitrary rules. Strict rules which need study to be understood. Not a mere glance over the score. Besides all that, the composer decides, not the listener.
@@orzanoap yes, he use a tone row, but it no works like "strictly follow a tone row and then repeat that row using different instruments and octaves". there's the original tone row, the inversion, the retrograde, the retrograde of the inversion, and the transposition of that 4 rows. in general, a tone row gives you 48 series to use. but the row that Webern used here is symmetrical and gave him 24 series to use. it's a very complex realization and a very beautiful one
So serialism is in fact sounding statistics? Sounds as interesting and fun as looking at bookkeeping manuscripts. I guess you have to be a certain kind of people to appreciate that. But I appreciate the effort of putting this on the tube, though, as it's a piece of music history, like it or not. The added analysis and the rows make it even better.
You have to be not thinking fully when you attack the work of serious creators and doubly stupid to attack them and those whose careers depend on them thinking and knowing whats what in any field . Yeah the moon is made of cheese and it's a conspiracy against just little you that men supposedly went to the moon and you can't believe men can fly without wings cuz you failed or didn't even take trigonometry and geometry .haha..
The more I grow older, the more I start to appreciate Webern. He is unrightfully treated as coldhearted one, and yet he's the only one who uses the twelve tone in a heartly manner.
Webern is the relatively “safe” one of the bunch, lol.
@@StocksIn60SecondsI’ve always found Weberns style a lot more jarring than the others
This is the work that the NY Philharmonic performed at a concert after which John Cage and Morton Feldman met (in the lobby of the auditorium after the performance). They had both stepped out simultaneously to avoid hearing the Rachmaninoff work that was on the program after it. They met in the lobby and introduced themselves, becoming fast friends when they found they were both composers with similar interests.
haha based music taste
@@arielorthmann4061 I would agree except it was Cage and Feldman
@@coreylapinas1000 wdym ? These are two amazing composers, aren't they ?
@@arielorthmann4061 I mean that they have absolutely garbage sensibilities and it can be heard in their "music".
They are incidentally right about Rachmaninoff tho.
Such a calm and mysterious expression, with hints of tension here and there. This is music to live in.
I have listened to this opus for many many years and still find it enthralling captivating etc. i dont have to know how it does what it does it just does and that's enough.
so schön, wohltuend, in dieser hyper-aufgeregten Zeit einmal etwas tragendes, solides, in sich geschlossenes und daher "stimmiges" zu hören. Was der Meister sich da vor 90 Jahren getraut hat... dem kommen viele zeitgenössische Komponisten nicht mal im Ansatz nach. Aus einer kompositorischen Beschränkung solch zauberhafte und verzaubernde Musik entwickeln zu können... grosse, ganz grosse Kunst.
Gut gesagt, d'accord!
I love Webern. Unfortunately he doesn’t get much recognition. This is simply beautiful.
lol, simply beautiful? my man you are one strange creature
I prefer Berg myself, but I think Webern get enough recognition by music lovers. It is no exaggeration to say that his work is the foundation of today's compositional style. The real problem is that so-called " Atonal Music " is not accepted by the general audience.
So many feelings in one music. I am very "emotionaly influenced" by music and oh my god, wasn't this something. Loneliness, Agony, unsettlement, anxiety, fear, I almost cried in the last bit. This aching feeling in my heart, hard to breathe.
It's a very... weird, feeling. A very interesting experience. I loved it. Music that moves your soul is the best.
😂 😂 😂 liar
Marko Ivač Idiot.
Appropriate for Coronavirus time under Trump.
"The more binding art is to itself, the richer, denser, and more unified its works, the more it tends toward affirmation [of whatever stamp] by suggesting that its own qualities are those of a world existing in itself beyond art." Aesthetic Theory, Theodor W. Adorno, Translated by Robert Hullot-Kentor, University of Minnesota Press, Ninth printing, 2020, P. 160.
Meaningless and pedantic. How about Webern is a first rank genius. We are so lucky to have had him. His works bring me joy and serenity. Ty G-d for bringing him into my life.
I know what you mean.
Dave Hickey.
It's like hearing Klee most abstract but still lyrical works made in Bauhaus....I'm loving it.....from Brazil
Tu d rey tu f#Que z Tuz HH hito fgggn
Chi hasta High Cohen c Giovanny oivv xvovv via xojv CI vez útil Otilio
Fyfyfyfy
Tru tío t ti f yo
6:34 Meine liebste Stelle :)
Ich liebe das Stück insgesamt. Sehr erfrischend zwischendurch Webern zu hören und auf meinem Mozart der Jugend Schönberg zu verzichten.
So beautiful! This is the thing I'm intensely pre occupied with, the varying combinations of austerity in music, otherworldly Ness in Nature, space, oblique Ness and the vague emotional movement toward lyricism. Been working with this all my life, now in my sixties.🎹☺️
Same here! I first heard this piece in 1986 and marvel every time I listen to it. While it plays, nothing else exists. It occupies me very being.
@@danb2622 ua-cam.com/video/q7GYoUMyEig/v-deo.html
Extremely elegant. For me, a pointillistic opium dream of shards of light piercing through pitch black darkness. The energy curves and "rhetorical traction" are masterful.
Well put.
Erroll9621 Yep-you beat me to it took the words right out of my mouth that's just what I was gonna say-you read my mind mate!
fuck is rhetorical traction my guy?
No, it's a dirge for Maman.
@@CHUNGAandNANOOK Rhetorical traction refers to the basic materials in a piece being used and developed throughout in a coherent and convincing manner. When people say things like "there isn't a note out of place in this piece," what they're getting at is its high degree of rhetorical traction.
This joint is straight flames. It's a little known fact that after dropping Opus 21 on the clubs of Vienna, Webern started work on a Collab with Mobb Deep. A limited run of white labels was released with Webern spitting 12 tone rhymes under the pseudonym Spidah Webz. Unfortunately the mid 90s wasn't ready for retrograde rhymes.
god i wish
back to the future be like
Fr tho me and the homies pop it to this bop on that friday night you know what I'm sayin'
Shit is straight gas, hella slept on
They say webern ghostwrote shook ones
Beautiful. Interesting sound world
One of my favorite Symphonies of all time.
Sinopoli has left us so many beautiful documents such as this.
Beautiful! Thanks for sharing!
So beautiful, like a walk in an ethereal landscape near a small village in the german mountains !
Don't you smell the alpine flowers?
@@daniellu8282 I certainly smell something...
...at night under the moon.
As I'm going through the complete works of Webern, and getting more used to his musical language, I'm finding a curious phenomenon of being emotionally affected by this work as I might with nondodecaphonic music- this is what Webern intended, and it's an exciting new frontier in listening I hope everyone can get a taste of.
Everyone won't but a few of us do. But everyone can feel the haunting of tonality that he evokes and they fear it instead of finding solice a new world. All they can confront is their fear.
movement 2 is at 6:02
u speak Japanese?
@@verslaflamme666 まだ勉強しています
@@NoahKawaguchi nice. 頑張ってね〜
Bartok quotes this piece in the Concerto for Orchestra
Really?? What part?
I did'nt know. Thank you!
Anton Webern's music feels crystalline, fragile to me. Shards and fragments appearing and disappearing again. I also think about what Thomas Pynchon wrote about him:
This rainy morning, in the quiet, it seems that Gustav's German Dialectic has come to its end. He has just had the word, all the way from Vienna along some musicians' grapevine, that Anton Webern is dead. 'Shot in May, by the Americans. Senseless, accidental if you believe in accidents - some mess cook from North Carolina, some late draftee with a.45 he hardly knew how to use, too late for WW II, but not for Webern. The excuse for raiding the house was that Webern's brother was in the black market. Who isn't? Do you know what kind of myth that's going to make in a thousand years? The young barbarians coming in to murder the Last European, standing at the far end of what'd been going on since Bach, an expansion of music's polymorphous perversity till all notes were truly equal at last....Where was there to go after Webern?'" (440-41)
Thank you so much for this comment - I love Thomas Pynchon and Webern. I always think of this symphony while reading Gravity's Rainbow. It feels so fitting ... the absolute desolation of the Pokler episode (3:41), humorous moments like Slothrop's hot air balloon pie fight (6:34) and of course the impending rocket (7:40).
Simply wonderful.
Nice. Very pretty- Thx for posting. My musical tastes have obviously matured, there was a point time where I would have considered this dissonant.
Feels like Mahler's 9th being compressed to a nine minute piece, to its very skeleton.
Precisely this. Webern is like both Mahler (and later on Feldman) condensed into tiny bits of perfected Gold.
There is an entire eternity in every single note Webern chooses, in a good way it feels ten times as long as it is.
Webern's music takes you into another dimension that few artists achieve.
@@HastenforthedawmSo true. Crystallized perfection in every gesture. It’s probably the closest musical representation of still life. Like an ideal moment trapped in amber.
I wish he lived until 1983... imagine him collaborating with Kraftwerk.
😾
Imagine him collaborating with Tupac
@@brunosalamon4755 lol
Yeah. I can imagine a programmed electronic beat a la aphex twin or perhaps a phat sampled drum loop.
omg that would've been so awesome :O
The first movement is a canon per contrario motu, the second movement are variations. Both are baed on the same 12-tone row.
I am sorry this piece is totally non harmonic.
Thank you for the answers to my homework
it’s like the stars in the sky
UA-cam should really come up with an algorithm that doesn't plonk loud advertising right into the middle of classical music.
This piece is the perfect precursor to composers like Feldman, Cage, Stockhausen, Boulez and many more. You can hear everything from Gruppen, Marteau sans maitre to Cages number pieces and Feldman's For Phillip Guston! :)
Webern didn't influence Feldman on techniques - Feldman greatly disliked the constraints of techniques such as twelve tone and he was always very free-flowing and non-inhibiting with the way he wrote. Feldman was more inspired by Weberns orchestration and harmonies (which are one of the most overlooked parts of Weberns work), Weberns music for him reflected his personal goal of making music that has an ethereal, serene quality to it best from the three major figures of Vienna.
Yes, the harmonies, sonorities and they both share a certain ebb and flow of musical development. Early Feldman was heavily influenced by Webern, this kind of surrene textured Webern can certainly be found all of Feldman's chamber work :)
That's absolutely right. Thanks a lot for your tip.
"It’s a famous story that John Cage and Morton Feldman met when both were walking out of a concert of the New York Philharmonic in 1950. They had just heard Webern’s Symphony, Op. 21 and neither cared to stay for the Tchaikovsky that was next on the program."
Static music does not move me. The Russian soul of Roslavets is more interesting.
Anton Webern:Szimfónia Op.21
1. Camminando tranquillamente 00:00
2. Variációk 06:03
Téma: Molto tranquillo
I.variáció: Vivace
II.variáció: Molto vivace
III.variáció: Di nuovo piú moderato
IV.variáció: Estremamente silenzioso
V.variáció: Molto vivace
VI. variáció: Marcia moderatamente, non elien
VII. variáció: Un poco piú ampio
Coda
Drezdai Állami Zenekar
Vezényel:Giuseppe Sinopoli
Köszönöm az értékelést
This piece is concdered by musicologists as the first one in which dodecaphonic serialism found a coherence betwwen the form and the writing. In the previous trio op; 20, Webern made use of sonata form, inherited from the tonal world. here, he uses a canonic form well in line with the serial handling.
And it also happens to be my favorite symphony.
Sonata form too here in the first movement
@@talcdebebe7553 It is in fact more complex than tht. The first movement of the trio op. 20 was a clear sonata form, but Webern felt more or lrdss consciously thet there was a kind of contradiction between the satonât for aenf the rues os serialism which tender to call for architecture of their own. So, in the first movement of op. 21,Webern actually kept some overarching ideas of the sonata form - the repetition double bar is the most obvious one. But the serail organization controls the form, which was not the case in op. 20, and will be even more evident n op.22, 24, 28. This ide of a direct contrl of the serailism on the form canot be found rither in Schoenberg"s or in Berg's works, which make use of othe rpriciples - sometimes quite complex for instance in the late Berg;
@cuallito a form based upon several canons (right, inverse, retrograd, etc....
The second movement makes much more sense in this performance than in any others I’ve heard. Lovely score. And isn’t there a quote from Sibelius 4 at m 56? If intended, or even unconscious, that would be sweet.
I highly doubt it. Atonal composers considered Sibelius to literally be the worst composer ever. His influence has instead given us most of the great composers of the 21st century, Rautavaara, Saariaho and Wuorinen (who was highly influenced by Finnish culture despite being American).
Magnifique, merci
what a great piece
6:34 is my favorite part with the trumpet playing a polka. I wish it lasted longer.
It’s the first horn, there is no trumpet in the score.
Thema: 6:03
Var. I: 6:21
Var. II: 6:31
Var. III: 6:43
second movement starts at 6:03
12 tone in under 10 minutes, quite an experience, but if you "Mahlerized" or "Brucknerized" the length of this "symphony", it wouldn't be so fun.
This is sooo great
so good...
Someone here said it sounds like the onset of schizophrenia, but I don’t hear that and neither do I
Var 1, 6:20
Var 2, 6:34
Var 3, 6:44
Var 4, 7:10
Var 5, 7:40
Var 6, 7:52
Var 7, 8:10
Coda 8:30
Capolavoro della storia della musica
Not a fan of serialism (including second Viennese school), but this is nice :)
This is serialism + pointilism, which Webern was the master. If you liked this, Alfred Schnittke would be the one to listen to next, his Concerto Grosso No. 1.
I already know (and love) it :)
No it's not nice.
Yes it is nice
@@WozzeckLangsam Sometimes [12-tone serialism] works, sometimes it doesn't; it depends on the application and artistry of the composer
I gotta back to college music theory papers.
0:00 Part I
6:06 Part II
Now ,all dat said -one asks how do performers feel when asked to play a single note that is part of a whole and not phrases but trajectories of events . It's sad that composers and painters and painters try so little to help anyone who is in a hall where difficult not facile 20th century music is being played . If this was a movie or a horror film one might ask in order to "see " it -what is taking place . It feels like a walk laden ,no fraught with surprises and ...danger .It aint fun like Reich or Norgard or even Gubaidulina .Schnittke is fun but preWW2 Viennese music aint Schubert lieder ! I've been listening to this stuff since college and now I write it myself with lots of microtones and very tonal small glimses of phrases . Bartok is programmed a lot more than 2nd Viennese School . I dig the experience but I always know I'm missing something .A little pot could help the other thing you have to ask is when Webern is supposedly so precise , so correct and perfect what about the thousands of students who followed in the wake of Darmstadt . Maybe some of them hit upon more communicative things to do in 12tone . Rochberg's violin concerto communicates beautifully though I don't know if its serial or not and I'm saddened that he didn't have the conviction to keep at 12tone - burying a child can bring you back to basics . The European composers who migrated to America after 1938 lost family but somehow most of them kept this new game in motion and taught it at the universties -which is why music from 1940 till 1980 sounds like this .When producers realized more bucks could be made putting rock and blues behind scenes movie albums sold big . All the forces point one way to reductivity in art . Hold your boobies and wag your sticks . Invite da yahoos into dee Whitehouse for another 4 years and listen as the Earth moans !
what
...what the fuck are you talking about?
is not one of the most radical works? what do you think
What do you mean?
Well, we could consider 'radical' the piece Drei Volkstexte Lieder.
(I had the opportunitty to conduct this one some years ago. I was difficult but great!)
@koobmoon 745 i believe, but guess it is HIS most radical piece if i remember. Togheter with the II mov of the piano variations.
I bet Feldman was heavily inspired by this.
It's funny because there's this story - I don't know if it's true - about Feldman leaving the concert right after hearing this piece. Everyone thought he hated it because he didn't even applaud the musicians, but later he explained that he was so inspired by it that he couldn't wait any longer to write music himself.
Que música tan bizarra pero muy buena composición musical
There was a time when I was mystified by this lab work. Now I'll take the Rachmaninoff.
Lovely. Does this represent the death of formalism, or does it represent it’s logical conclusion?
Based
This sounds tonal to me.
I really love this music. but I can't help thinking about Star Trek. The original series.
I have that problem in general. And it is difficult to believe that this piece was not actually written by Mr. Spock.
@@LendallPitts Is it that logical?
This is my jam.
Me too, and this isn’t a joke.
Incredible romantic spirit in this Symphony, some people are just so attached to ancient structures.
This is my favorite symphony.
I would love it if all symphonies sounded like this. Quiet and thoughtful. When I hear the word "symphony" I think of something bombastic. This is exactly the opposite.
Bombast in general should be avoided. (And in politics too...)
If every symphony was like that you wouldnt think this one is special.
2nd movement 6:00
Ordenated chaos.
You mean ordinate (check spelling) which would make your comment nonsense as chaos is inordinate. Hence the naming of that particular condition with the word "Chaos" or better "Kaos".
Jordan Peterson, is that you?
eso de ahí era un tritono? que alguien me confirme
Es una retrogradación. Saludos
@@mariavareacastello9172 どうもありがとう
And now, ladies and gentlemen, we would like to present the... end!
I quite like the music, but it gives me anxiety
It's not meant to. It's meant to bring peace of mind.
Git ovah it. trump produces anxiety. This work is playful and peaceful.
@@ethanhill9460 Well said sir
@@ethanhill9460 I'd feel more secure if this piece was elected president. Opus 21 2020 - Make America Dodecophonic Again.
@@erika6651 Since when was America dodecaphonic?
I can hear melodies.
oh no the horror
I'm 67 and I'm still struggling with 12 tone and atonal music. Any help welcome. Stravinsky, Varese, no problem, but I'm missing the wit in this. I like John Adams, if that's a clue, but I'm sure he's not 12 tone. I can remember tunes that I heard when I was a teenager and haven't heard since, and can even recall the key they are in, I have perfect pitch. Perhaps I'm "Harmony bound"?
Ben, I presume you are not acquainted with late Stravinsky, in which he uses his adoption of Krenek's take on serialism.
If you don't know music from the Septet (1952-53) onwards where he begins to adopt various contrapuntal techniques until his first full scale serial work Threni (1958). He even takes on the avant-garde in Movements (1958-59) and more so in the Huxley Orchestral Variations (1963-64).
A lot of his later music is hit and miss, and until Threni some of it, like Agon (1953-1957) and Canticum Sacrum (1955) [the third movement 'Surge aqulio' I think is quite ravishing, despite the spare orchestration], has elements directly or indirectly serial.
I would start with his last composition The Owl and The Pussycat (1966) then Requiem Canticles (also 1966) which I think is masterpiece. It was performed at his funeral in Venice and is thought to have been his own funeral music, but the commission for it came in handy (he always had his eye on income). Next A Sermon, a Narrative, and a Prayer (1960-61). The CBS recording has Shirley Merrett in fine voice in the last movement.
I'm a late Stravinsky fan, in case you didn't realise ;-)
Thank you for your advice, which I intend to follow in time! I have recordings of Agon and Canticum Sacrum, and Three Songs from Shakespeare, from the CBS series.
What about Wozzeck by Alban Berg? It's great scene music.
Webern without tears: string quartet Op 28 helped me.
The idea in 12 tone writing is that each note is meant to be equally as important as any other note. It does that by ordering notes in a row, and creating permutations of that row. Each note is therefore sounded more or less as often as any other note, and the form and rhythm are what drives the piece. The effect is that it frees music of the "constraints" of harmony by assuring each note is equally valid and important. Each note has its own level of importance, and the combination of notes is simple a consequence of the structure.
My opinion is that I can really enjoy this music for what it is - math applied to music. I also enjoy the sounds and dissonances that this music creates, and the vigorous controlled structure and rigor of it. But in the end I also think it's a cold sterile dead end which strips the humanity out of music and in that sense it's a perfect mirror of what was happening in the world when this music was being composed.
Any opinions on what the piece means? I'd like to add others perspectives into my report, if you don't mind.
This music is legiterately the new nefflickz
1 часть
1 раздел 0:00
2 раздел 2:04
Someone enlighten me. Since when is sonata form AABB?
It's not? No one's claiming that.
Are you talking about Sonatas and Interludes, sonata V, by John Cage?
That's the only piece I know with AABB form
The description at ua-cam.com/video/Xq2gwuKDPnY/v-deo.html does say: First Movement: Sonata form, with double canon. There are two large sections that are repeated (AABB). The text in the description says it is a statement and development. Does that qualify as sonata form? Interesting question. . .
Not entirely disagreeable. That said, it still sounds like a sonic representation of the unsettling beginnings of schizophrenia. Which makes my first statement equally unsettling. 😆
OK. But your problem is that nobody knows you in contrast to Webern. Or maybe it is a good thing...lol
I don't find it at all representative of schizophrenia.
@@georgeholloway3981 Of course, it has nothing to do with schizophrenia- that was the OP's way of trying "wit". Along the tired lines of, "my cat could play that", etc. which one tends to hear from those for whom music is forever tangential to their comprehension.
@@plekkchand Yes and it's offensive to us with mental disorders. "Unsettling beginnings of schizophrenia" is not a real medical concept, just a bunch of random words put together. The only time I get a comparison to mental disorders is in some of Beethoven's music. I'm pretty sure he had bipolar because many of his pieces sound like a manic episode to me, and scholars say it's very likely. Aside from that I ask people to shut the hell up xD
The first dodecaphonics managed to create a continuity with 19th century romanticism, very obvious in this piece. Later epigonists( Boulez, Stockhausen etc.) sacrificed this to annoying and noisy excentricism.
20c 초반 음악
베베른 - [교향곡] op.21
★제 3기 [12음 기법]
[12음 기법] : [완전한 무조성 음악]을 [성취]하기 위하여 [음렬]을 만들어 [12음을 모두 한번씩 사용]한다는 것이다.
이렇게 해서 만들어진 (음의 나열)을 [＊기본 음렬] 이라고 한다.
기본음렬을 [1)전위] [2)역행] [3)전위역행] 시켜 [철저하기 무조적]이며 [체계화된 음악]을 만드는 작곡 기법이다.
[베베른] : 베베른의 작품은 [매우 짧고] [밀도]있으며 [완벽한 형식]을 갖추고 있다.
[1920년]대 중반 [이후] : 12음기법 사용
베베른의 음악은 [음정 도약이 심하고] [음색이 자주 변화함] 에 따라 음악의 흐름이 [점들의 연속]처럼 들리는 인상 때문에
[★ 점묘주의] 음악이라고도 불린다.
이때 사용된 12음 기법은 [음의 길이] [음색] [셈여림]으로 [★확대] 된 것이 특징으로
1950년대 이후 [★총렬음악에 큰 영향]을 미쳤다.
This gives me anxiety
I enjoy falling asleep to this work. Helps relax my mind. lol
I find it profoundly calming. De gustibus...
Good
Too fast.
Not
He thought so.
I thought not.
@@bartjebartmans I thought you thought not so
Not fast enough for me.
No me ha gustado nada...
No comprendo tu opinión
@@mariavareacastello9172 Arnaldo Otegi tampoco...
As a mature muscian, unsatisfied by the things……
Does this music strictly follow a tone row and then repeat that row using different instruments and octaves or does he break that rule? That always seemed like an arbitrary rule. Music like this could be produced with repeating pitches in different octaves not closer than 12 notes apart.
When it comes to Webern there are no arbitrary rules. Strict rules which need study to be understood. Not a mere glance over the score. Besides all that, the composer decides, not the listener.
That’s not an answer to my question. Did he use a strict tone row without repeating pitches in this piece?
@@orzanoap yes, he use a tone row, but it no works like "strictly follow a tone row and then repeat that row using different instruments and octaves". there's the original tone row, the inversion, the retrograde, the retrograde of the inversion, and the transposition of that 4 rows. in general, a tone row gives you 48 series to use. but the row that Webern used here is symmetrical and gave him 24 series to use. it's a very complex realization and a very beautiful one
0:00 (p.506)
2:32 (p.505)
2.satz 6:03
0:02
Webern loved his palindromes.
eh
0:00 - 6:02
umm
acá estudiando composición sin poder cazar un fulbo :D
What's this?!
OwO
@@sebastianwang9498 UwU
3eme C 😐
So serialism is in fact sounding statistics? Sounds as interesting and fun as looking at bookkeeping manuscripts. I guess you have to be a certain kind of people to appreciate that. But I appreciate the effort of putting this on the tube, though, as it's a piece of music history, like it or not. The added analysis and the rows make it even better.
Why use Twinkle Twinkle Little Star as a theme? Is that not vulgar?
BRASIL
2:33
Ish fule de luft einus anderen planeton
I prefer Anton to Arnie (Arnold. S)
To Gurrelieder? String Quartets (No. 2!!), Variations Op. 31? Quite the statement.
6:04
Who could enjoy listening to this music?
Me of course! Why do you think I uploaded it??
I do
Seriously? This is one of the best pieces of music I've ever heard, it's so exquisite and reflective
Hola mamá.
Hola hijo
rich
is there anything remotely memorable here? sounds as if it was composed using an algorithm.
Listen to it a few times and you will find out it will become very familiar, providing you have an open mind and ear.
A very beautiful algorythm. What's wrong with that?
You have to be not thinking fully when you attack the work of serious creators and doubly stupid to attack them and those whose careers depend on them thinking and knowing whats what in any field . Yeah the moon is made of cheese and it's a conspiracy against just little you that men supposedly went to the moon and you can't believe men can fly without wings cuz you failed or didn't even take trigonometry and geometry .haha..