Netflix's Punisher Didn't Understand Frank Castle
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- Опубліковано 18 лют 2019
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Jon Bernthal killed it as punisher. He’s an incredible actor
he's a clown, and the character he's playing could be anybody.
@@plasticweapon How is he a clown?
@@plasticweapon he becomes the real punisher in the last scene
@@wxldwxlf-topic5033 It doesn't matter because the show got cancelled and maybe in season 3 he would have went across the exact same lame emotional arc as before.
@@plasticweapon hey idiot do you think you can do a better job
Ah, Frank Castle, my favorite Disney character.
My favorite Disney princess
Well, Disney owns the MCU...
Right up there with Cinderella and Miley Cyrus.
Marcellus Wallace is mine.
Daryle Dickens 🤣 awesome
I think Bernthal's performance made me look past all the flaws honestly lol
Good actor but he was written is the issue here
He made the series
@@marwan4358 it’ll be really hard to see anyone else other than Bernthal as Frank if there’s any future The Punisher things by Marvel tbh
@@tjharts they better just bring him back
@@pello2182 In a reboot with a different showrunner and writers. He was a good actor in a bad story
You explained the Netflix Punisher exactly right. Taking away the randomness of his family’s murder completely undermined everything about the character. Having his family die because of wrong place, wrong time is exactly why he murders all criminals. Frank doesn’t just stumble into violent situations, he actively seeks them out.
Completely agree. Having his family targeted specifically gives Castle a hit list that he can cross off. But having them killed in the cross fire means that *all* criminals are now his targets.
@@mikenolan73 what? That makes no sense. You are drawing a non existent line, an arbitrary line concerning a characters motivation. It's incredibly reductive to say that classic Punisher only keeps going because he can't be sure he got the right killers, hell! It's not even reductive it's just plain wrong.
Frank operates with the full knowledge that almost none of the people he targets are even tangentially responsible for his family, the loss of his family was the catalyst for being the Punisher not the only reason he continues.
Lol… but he goes after criminals because it was ‘criminals’ that killed his family, like his family got caught up in a gang shoot out. That’s how it was in Netflix. So, it was ‘random’ to him until he realized it was set up. But even then, he’s already too far gone and realized how good it felt to get rid of the criminals.
Pretty much agree. Netflix spent waaaaayyyyyy too much time on flashbacks of Frank and the wifey. I mean, were talking about the guy Ghost Rider did his Penance Stare to and nothing happened. He felt NO guilt about all of the people he killed. He considered them collateral damage in war. Bernthal's performance was better than Stevenson's from Punisher War Zone. However, War Zone was the most accurate portrayal of the comic book, with the one exception of feeling guilt over killing the undercover Fed. IMO that movie deserved more love.
The active seeking out of violent situations and deathwish of Frank Castle is prevalent throughout all of the Netflix Punisher's series.
Frank killing the pawnshop guy honestly felt really good.
Eh, was pretty hypocritical for him to be cool with and and support the guys other crimes until he hears one he doesn't like.
Kye Dysarthria I think it runs deeper than that. The pawnshop guy said she’s barely 12 years old. It made frank think of his daughter. Hence why he grabbed the bat put him down
Propaganda..Jeffrey Epstein the chomo is a Zionist not a Nazi
@@fightingmedialounge519 Sums up the cultural ussue aboud the USA having very similar gun holding laws to Netherlands meanwhile having a much higher rate of people killing each other on the streets for no good reason. "Feels really good to see that seemingly terrible person die" has a meaning you know:D Like, it FEELS GOOD to see him DIE? WoW. And Frank showed it: Child pornography? Not okay. Selling weapons to random strangers who pay enough for it? Okay. Killing people at your own randomly, emotionally created will as a civilian because they sell child pornography? Okay.
@@murdanom Dude. It's a show.
Simple enough, Frank just needed to do more punishing.
Agreed
To people who actually deserved it
Empyreal Denizen imho his villains aren’t as bad as the ones heroes likes Bats, Spidey and DD deal with on regular basis
Empyreal Denizen he should also be going after real villains(like serial killers, manipulators, Joker, Wilson and Vanessa Fisk, Jeri Hogarth, Mariah Dillard, Bullseye, Carnage, Sabertooth, Red Skull, Green Goblin, Zodiac, Jack the Ripper, Manson, etc) not constantly going after low life mobsters
@@Seasonal-Shadow_4674 to be fair to punisher, he's just not equiped to take out superpowered baddies. Punisher kills the marvel universe is a little too unrealistic on that front. I get what you mean (I'd love to see Joker's face if the Punisher turns up instead of Batman, though he'd probably think it hilarious), but gritty street crime is Punisher's forte, not maniacal penguines and green peace activists with a seductive flair
Jigsaw's face. Seriously! He should have looked like a mangled ragdoll after what Frank did to him! And the only damage he has is just a few scars!?
I hated that more than anything
@Aidan Dorries How many scenes was he in? Grand total wise? Setup where there are multiple shots from different episodes on the same day and you save more money. But sometimes it isn't just about money, they should have put more effort into 1 character to make a better show.
They did say that he had facial reconstruction.
@Game Hunt103 Frank literally gouged out and shredded parts of Jigsaw's face. With broken glass. Even with several reconstructive surgery, he still should have looked like he was ruined, not like he had an accident from when he was younger.
@Game Hunt103 Especially in the marvel, a place where people honestly should suspend their disbelief.
The pawnshop owner kill in Daredevil felt more like a vigilante kill than Frank finding an excuse to kill someone
@Shieldsy yeah , the owner quite literally hinted at child pornography and that was more than enough reason for Frank to kill him.
Exactly
@@Benthrice Fr that guy needed to be dealt with
He did what had to be done. Any man I know would have done the same.
Still pretty double-standarded for him to be okay with some other f*cked up crimes but not this one, because he didn't like the crime.
Fun fact since you had a picture of the Moon Knight Crossover: When Moon Knight talks to Khonshu about Frank and asks the god, why he did not choose Frank as his avatar, since he is more effective in bringing fear to the criminals. Khonshu answers that Frank is already serving another deity. Implying that Frank is, maybe without knowing, indeed the avatar of Death.
Whoa😮
Saying that he serves another deity does not mean it is Death.
@@JoahTheThread5ive it’s an implication you moron.
Holy fuck I just had a nerdgasm
That's kinda terrifying. A mortal man being the avatar of death is somehow much more intimidating than an invincible character like the Spectre or something.
Jon Bernthal deserves his own Punisher MCU movie set up in his point of view.
Would Disney even allow it?
He is confirmed for Spiderman 3
@@ernestomichel9049 Really??
@@mrglass8129 yes find a video about it 👍
@@ernestomichel9049 YOU. you think he's comfirmed. Lets just CONFIRM THAT lol
The monologue works better than a flash back because you're hearing it all from the mouth of the broken man who's already suffered it. You're not caught with the impact of the trauma, but rather how it impacted him. I cry every time
“Do what you love and you never work a day in your life.”
- Frank Castle, Suicide Kings
The last scene, he became the punisher.
My thoughts exactly in season 2 he has the revelation that he enjoys his work and wouldn't have it any other way. I think they were going to have him slowly become more like the comics punisher over time.
@@personman1148 Agree
2 seasons 2 long man rinse n repeat in season 2
That scene made me pretty uncomfortable when I saw it. I wasn’t really familiar with the comic punisher so I figured he was like he is in the 2004 movie and in the show.
@@drerod89 why uncomfortable?
The reason he’s willing to give DP and Logan a second chance is because they’re former soldiers and they do show genuine remorse about their pasts he doesn’t need to punish them because they’re already doing it to themselves
He also can’t kill them
@@infinitegames6539 i'm guessing if he wanted to he'd cut them into pieces and put them in tiny boxes and bury them deep deep in the ground/ocean all across the world
@@kuivia still pointless
Also it aint that easy to cut up logan
@@ItachiUchiha_1724 well they wouldn't be able to regrow themselves if their pieces had no room to regrow? Right?
@@infinitegames6539 He could tie cinderblock around them and dump them in the ocean. DP might stay in a perpetual state of drowning forever, but we've seen Logan die from suffocating.
To be fair, multiple seasons of watching a literal murder hobo kill people over and over again in progressively more brutal ways may not exactly appeal to a mainstream audience so it makes sense to me they tuned it down just abit
And it just wouldn't be as interesting. Murder porn is cool in feature film length but after a few episodes it would honestly just get boring.
@@KTheStruggler yep… exactly what i think too
Murder hobo lol I love that 🤣
Yeah having the same plot for every season and episode. Would get pretty boring and repetitive. While I wish the Netflix show would’ve gone with a more comic accurate interpretation of the Punisher. I can understand why they decided to play it safe. Not just to avoid controversy, but also as means for drawing in a new audience who are new to the Punisher.
You wouldn’t need just episodes of him murdering people to be accurate. You can still have an overarching plot, and developed side characters that bring in other kinds of drama, and crossovers with heroes. Making Frank’s mentality like the comics doesn’t mean each episode is just him mowing down bad guys on repeat.
I think Netflix making Castle more as a tragic figure than just a sociopath who needed his family gone to peacefully murder people is one the greatest strenght of the show. In the adaptation, the punisher is more complexe, between the human who wants to have a normal life and the born killer than he is. And this top writing level is also there for the other characters. Hope there will be a season 3 someday
In a Way I think the main difference is that while the TV show punisher may be a more internally conflicted character, because it follows a common trope, the comic version being completely dead inside, living in ceaseless cycle of killing anyone he deems evil almost like he's in an endless living hell asks an interesting question. What is the point of vengeance to the dead? When done right that can be a more nuanced story, questing what it means to be alive.
It really isn't that "complex", in fact it makes him more plain and generic. There's no nuance, nothing really to dig under what's already made pretty obvious. He's a guy doing justice by his own hands, even though he doesn't like it. That's basically the plot of every action revenge thriller from 1970s to now.
The sociopath angle brings a bigger conflict. Why is he doing that? Why didn't he just be happy with his family? What is he going to do after he's done? And there's so much you can wonder from that. Maybe deep down, he always had this drive to be in a war, but had to restrain from it. Maybe he lost something inside of him in the war and couldn't ever get it back. It's a big metaphor to how sometimes people are too far gone and one of these happens to be with a war veteran. Made to be a weapon forever.
Yeah, because you can never write maincharacters that are both complex and have sociopathic tendencies ......
......Walter White, * cough *cough
By the way, I'm also a fan of the Netflix show as well.
@@radrno7 Yeah, "just a sociopath who needed his family gone to peacefully murder people" raises WAY more questions than it answers. That is not a fucking normal character, and add to it that he's a vet who kills criminals and you've got a ton to work with. I particularly liked Ennis' interpretation where he fell in love with war, but his last chance to be a good man and escape was lost when his family died, so he created a new war for himself to fight. He's always been a tragic figure. An author who makes that premise boring lacks imagination.
Did you even watch season 2? It’s whole arc was Frank finally coming to terms with the fact that he is what he is and shouldn’t change for society. He doesn’t ‘go home’ at the end of season 2, he go on to fully embrace his inner punisher.
I also don’t recall him ever feeling remorse for killing criminals he feels deserved it.
Yeah
@@13guitard00d At the end of season one he's given a pardon, and a chance to start a new life away from all that violence.
Season two is him coming to terms with the reality that that life is just not for him, and ultimately it doesn't satisfy him and he was lying to himself in pretending it ever could. The only thing that gives him any satisfaction any more is killing bad guys.
It's a Punisher origin story, not a story arc with a Punisher ten or fifteen years after his family's murder when he's become completely numb and jaded from killing literally thousands of people to the point where it's become casual.
The Punisher didn't start as a bad man without remorse, and this series does a great job at exploring that. This whole video is null and void for failing to acknowledge that.
@@BigUriel both you and DB 007 make the exact points I stand by. Especially at the end of season 2 after he threw away a simple life and possibly a relationship just to save an innocent girl from getting taken and for a whole season looked after her and tried to keep her safe. He just slowly became what he truly was a smart man that cant let innocents get hurt while he stood by. At the end of the season 2 he is given another opportunity to get his life together but he instead chooses to clean up the streets from thugs, gangs, and criminals. He is home when he is doing the right thing. Season 1 was him getting revenge and learning the truth which was amazing. Season 2 was him coming to term with what his calling was. and season 3 was probably gonna be him being punisher. Season 3 was going to be the best punisher the world had ever seen because Jon Bernthal did an amazing job in becoming the punisher and not even for a single second that I thought he wasnt the punisher. Season 3 probably wasnt gonna have very deep plot but he probably was gonna go after some deep criminal organization and wipe it out or he was just gonna go after some bad guys for a few episodes. Nevertheless it was gonna be awesome.
@@TurkIsAwesome In my opinion that is the problem. he pretty much had a 2 1/2 season origin. Shorten that shit up lmao. I think season 1 should have had the same type of story. (Neglect the "Oh I'm done now" crap with him taking an episode of trying not to do anything, multiple episodes of him trying to get things rolling again) Keep the "Micro finds Frank, Frank and Micro kill These people" story arc.
Because then alot of episodes become filler. I understand they would want something more complex and such (like the bomber or keeping tabs on the family) But I think it needed 3 episodes less. Get it more condensed. That way you can move on easier and we don't have to pretty much do the same thing to set up the next season (Just to finally be were we already should be at season 3)
If you go back and watch the first trailer for season 1 (With the Metallica track) then watch the season again. It's pretty misleading. (In fact it shows kind of what I described earlier as the set up) Don't get me wrong the trailer doesn't outright lie to you. But it doesn't in anyway give you the impression that he is going to go through "Origin story V2, Electric Boogaloo" ya know what I mean?
He literally let a pedophile go in season 2. Plus there was no need for him to embrace the Punisher. He embraced it at the end of S1 which was just a retread of his origin. S2 just found a roundabout way of retreading his origin again. It could never just let him be The Punisher because it for some reason wanted us to care about a man who has started a pointless war against a faceless victim wherein he takes out all the context or grey morality. The show needed to explore that. Not just be like "He can't embrace it yet." For literally two seasons. And that comes after a season in Daredevil where he had like half the runtime where it dedicated itself to explaining why he was doing what he was doing and set the end up to say he was The Punisher fully.
Respectfully, I disagree. In Daredevil S2 and Punisher S1, he's out for revenge. Yes, it's repetitive. However, Punisher S2 addresses Frank's need for a war.
Early in the season, Amy states Frank got involved because he wanted the excuse. In a later episode, Curtis tells Frank, he's always looking for a fight. There are points when he didn't kill, but he is reluctant; frustrated when he lets people go.
In Season 2 Ep 8, he visits his wife's grave and comes to that understanding, which leads to the ending. Punisher tricks two gangs into a meet. Frank, skull on his chest, comes and guns them down.
So, I disagree that the don't understand him. They gave him slightly more depth, which is fine for an adaptation. But Netflix's Frank Castle is a killer, who can't exist without a war, and enjoys it. However, I agree they took too long to reach full Punisher. It's sad we won't get to see him.
The Punisher will return.
Beat Sunshine
No. It won’t. It’s cancelled
If it did not get canceled, it was perfect for them taking their time. I love it regardless, but if we got Season 3 none of these people would be complaining
@@dae1en Not on Netflix he won't, and whatever puerile garbage Disney excretes certainly won't include such imagery as a man having his eyeballs pushed in while he pisses himself and screams through a hole in his throat, or a man being deliberately mutilated by having his face smeared across jagged glass.
Dude he helped an assassin get his sons back from his client and said hey you killed all of my friends friends in cold blood also other innocent others soo ima let you go also gives a mafia boss a pass just NO!!
The biggest problem is that the Netflix story wasn't a Punisher story. It was an original story MADE into a Punisher story. It wasn't a Punisher story made into a Netflix show. If you remove all the comic references, it's very blatant how independent it all is from everything else.
While I agree it was nothing like the comic book character, I actually loved the portrayal of Frank in the Netflix series. Comic Punisher is, frankly, more than a little bit "one-note", and seeing him as a man conflicted who just wanted to settle down but was constantly haunted by this horrible spectre of tragedy and violence hanging over him felt a lot more compelling, and added some refreshing new depth to the character beyond "Frank shoot bad guy". I totally understand fans of comic book Punisher not loving the new series, but I think the REASON Daredevil Season 2 feels like it got Castle so right is because the comic version OF Punisher really only works as an ANtagonist to other, more-traditional heroes, rather than a protagonist on his own.
Just my two cents on the matter, this was still a great analysis and an enjoyable video.
That archetype has been done so much that a comic accurate Punisher me would be more interesting and unique at this point at least in my opinion
@@heavymetalfan1167 just a bland emotionless Killing spree movie? Watch John wick and skip dialogue
@@basedbrit4206 I think its more seeing how the punisher effects things and people around him
@@burtbiggum499 I like humanising him, It gives him more depth that's perfect for a TV show. I think the emotionless punisher only works in a comic format
@@heavymetalfan1167 the 89 punisher is literally the movie you’re looking for
Loved this! I ADORE the show, but I’ve never read a Punisher comic in my entire life. I was one of those snobby fucks who just thought the comics were senseless violence, but your video completely sold me on checking out comic book Punisher. Thanks!
Read Max first
Hi!!
Love your videos Alex
Hey Alex you're the man! Check out PUNISHER Max Slavers. It's very good!
HiTop Films Collab when
I understand the problems with the show but anyone who denies it isn't the best live-action Punisher is being foolish. It really deserved a S3 as the character had finally been fleshed-out at the end.
@Captain Lobo Tom Janes performance was good, Jons was different, and better
@Den Danske Helt yep
@Den Danske Helt tom Jane didn't even come close to jon bernthal you can't be serious
@Den Danske Helt Jane i never got that feeling from just saying
War Zone was pretty good for a Punisher movie.
At his most intense, I tend to think of Frank Castle being just an inch away from being something like the navy seal equivalent of Michael Myers.
That sounds even scarier than a jason that knows Kung fu.
I think a 6-issue Frank Castle vs. Michael Myers comic run would be great and pretty easy to pull off in the right hands
Tbf i think frank became "the punisher" in the last scene of the second season, where he literally just went to a random place full of "bad people" and started shooting
I can see why they canceled the show after that. How much more depth could we get after he killed a warehouse full of "bad people." At least in season 1 he was targeting domestic terrorists or people involved in his families murder. Season 2 he had no dimension.
I'm sad for that. I was wishing Frank would go back to the bartender girl he met at the beginning of the season. I just wanted Frank to be with someone and start over.
@@karinaserah the reason he doesn’t do that, is because he’s not conflicted anymore. He offically became The Punisher.
@@meechybeatz8200 lol that is not why they cancelled them. Netflix canceled all marvel shows because of disney plus
@@karinaserah
That would be Frank Castle though. Frank Castle died with his family. There's only Punisher, and that's what it's about.
Same thing happened to Black Panther. He was badass in Civil War and okay in his own Movie
That's EXACTLY what I thought when I watched his solo outing. Mostly thanks to his his kinetic suit which resulted in him not needing to fist fight most of the time because he could litteraly just stand there soaking all of the damage and release that energy blast which somehow knocks everybody around him instantly. What a cop out I say.
Mr. Woods Same with Spider-Man. He was a pretty competent fighter who was pretty perfect as both Peter Parker and Spider-Man then Jon Watts makes him basically Miles Morales. The Russo brothers know these characters better than the directors of their solo movies. Even Doctor Strange was better in Infinity War than in his solo movie.
@@IndecisiveJRThe only thing to do with miles morales is his room-mate and that's it I don't see how that makes him a copy. And how was doctor Strange better in Infinity War? There's almost no difference.
@@IndecisiveJR Right!
@Ultimate Hedgehog Even at the end he seemed more badass
They gave us two season's with two origin story's for Frank with small cameo's of the Punisher.
Daredevil did him better.
I agree with this notion. Even though I think the show is a great adaptation of the character. If you think of it as more of a long retelling of the "born" arc, and as an origin story, it makes it 10x better imo. And if we ever see bernthal as frank again, we should see him punishing more people.
Thats exactly what i feel when i finished season 2, Frank really becomes the punisher until that last scene, i liked the series but it's a Shame that we good so little of the punisher
I think this is an accurate assessment.
Exactly how I felt at the end of season 2. Why did we need to seasons for him to become the punisher when he did in season 2 of dardevil. Now its all ruined anyway.
Daredevil S2 definitely did his character the best justice on screen.
Lol I love that when you were describing the wolverine character arc they clipped for Frank, you perfectly described the plot of the equalizer films, the taken films, the Bourne films, the Jack Reacher films, and like 50 other successful movie franchises and characters in literature and film. It really is a popular archetype.
And I could watch it 1000 more times if executed correctly
It's what appeals to casual audiences. People couldn't take the full on Punisher, just bulldozing through criminals, basically a psychopath. They need the 'he's the good guy' cliché. It's basically a power fantasy, instead of showing how absolutely horrible being the Punisher really is.
@@radrno7 In the MAX series, Punisher sinks a boat full of people, just to get to some bad guys. Netflix's Punisher had a mental breakdown because he thought he had killed 3 prostitutes that weren't his targets. Comics's Frank allowed dozens of prostitutes, waiters, personnel on board to get eaten by sharks without batting an eye. Yeah, It's hard to make the original Punisher sympathetic to audiences
@@fanofgodjimindiva2497 I think that's y he works best as a foil to the main character so well
which is what makes them all brilliant !!!
Jon Bernthal is as close to Frank Castle as we will ever get, yeah the 2 seasons we got weren't perfect, but damn did they make him seem like a badass, especially the pilot episode
Felt like a comic issue sprung to life. Such an excellent depiction of the character
What do u think about his intro in DareDevil Season 2?
@@leonardobraynen1524 amazing especially the prison hallway fight
@@thelytz9806 that was my favourite too the moment he realised that he'd been set up ........I really want him to end Fisk & he will still have to as Daredevil left him alive !!! ...... - the fight scene was awesome how can anyone say he was conflicted about killing those men ...he just moved like a machine & the only feeling he had was being pissed at being set up to be killed .........I always found the comic punisher while interesting was a bit of a dick because he had no reason to live other than killing ....I like my anti heroes a little bit more human I didn't find Frank conflicted by the killing he did I found him conflicted because there were people he came to care about deep down he is a pretty loyal sort of man who has the need to kill / punish the bad guys .......having Karen or Curtis or David & his family in his life wont change that you could tell by his conversations with Matt that his philosophy was kill the shitbags so they cant do it again ....but dont kill the innocent .../ good types which is why he couldn't kill daredevil .....& he knew who Matt was the moment he met him in the hospital room ....hence the you defend shitbags line .........I think even Matt knew he knew who he was but he wasn't 100% sure until the end of season ......
he's the least comic accurate interpretation we've had yet, what are you talking about?
Netflix punisher also likes killing,in season 2 Amy even says that he was happy for the excuse of saving her to kill.
Not to mention the final scene, after medani offers him the job, he kills a room of random thugs. Season 2 is Frank truly growing into the punisher, becoming the true him. If it hadn't gotten canceled, I feel season 3 would have given this guy the punisher he's looking for
Personally I do like Frank being more human than the comics. Having some moments where he's vulnerable, but ultimately being sadistic when it comes to criminals and villains, playing mind games with them, but always respecting law enforcement and military even if he disagrees with their methods. I strongly prefer the concept that he kills bad guys to keep a repeat of his own family's death from happening, but he has fun with it, too.
Yeah the main problem is people wanting it to be exactly like the comics. It can’t and shouldn’t. Why would anyone care about or root for a guy that saw the death of his family as freedom. That would make for such a boring character and a lame show. No disrespect to the comics, but adapting the character into the MCU and making him the main character of his own show requires his character to have more depth and be more human. The story of BECOMING the Punisher is way more interesting than the actual Punisher. The Punisher is the end and completion of Frank Castle’s character development. Frank Castle the human being is where the really interesting story is.
@@BuddyChy No, Thomas Jane and Ray Stevenson versions also weren't 100% faithful to the comics but they are in their own way having some moments of humanity and while they take inspiration from MAX comics they aren't all that psychopaths but still they FEEL like how Punisher should be not some ripoff of John Wick and Jason Bourne but gorier. Netflix's version it's not only a very bad adaptation of the comics but also it is not a good Punisher at all and is way too soft and emotional to the point that his character arc it's repetitive, slow and boring basically it's Punisher in the name only; and if you are not going to bother respecting the character's background or personality only to make it "interesting and human" then just don't call him Punisher and make an original character (John Wick as an example).
Frank Castle can be human and have emotions, my ideal version would be him having some soft moments with orphan children or women he just rescued from traffickers and rapists and caring for them in displaying empathy in a cold and uncaring surface but on the inside he does the right thing and seeks to actively protect the innocents; but with criminals and villains he has no empathy and sees them like scumbag that deserves death or being painfully tortured until they die (cutting their stomach wide open so that they see their guts out) by lost of blood because in his eyes they doesn't deserve to be called "people". All of that is more effective that constantly wanting to stop being Punisher or whining about it, instead make him have some moments of introspection when he is alone in his lair and he mourns the loss of his family in some monologue or just visiting their graves to show that he still misses them.
@@TheBatman39 I totally understand what you’re saying. You would understand the character better than me. I personally loved Netflix’s Punisher. To be fair however, what you’re describing doesn’t really make for a good show. Where’s the story, character development, relationships, etc? You need those different elements for a good show. It can’t be just like “this is the character, this is how he is at all times, he kills criminals, the end” what’s the point in the show? No one would watch it. No disrespect to the comics which I’m sure he’s plenty enjoyable and entertaining, but the description doesn’t really make sense for a tv show imo. I could be wrong, but at the end of the day, I really like Netflix’s version. I feel like you could have similar criticisms of how Arrow adapted the Green Arrow character and universe, but the version they came up with was fantastic, even if the show started falling off somewhere from season 3/4 onward.
@@BuddyChy Well if we are talking about the story, character development and Frank's relationships; maybe the series shouldn't have taken the quick and easy way of Frank hunting down his family's murderers in just a couple of minutes and then giving up being Punisher instantly. Maybe the show could have actually started with Frank searching all the crime lords and groups that killed his family but doing that in the whole season, killing criminals in brutal ways, interrogating them and torturing them (instead of him being the one that is tortured) but we see that at various points Frank is enjoying it way too much for his own good (like in the series have Karen Page trying to contact Frank and demonstrate that he is not a psychopath, she finds him and just like Micro tries to keep him sane the best she can and believes he is still a good man inside but Frank's openly hates himself way to mucho to see that and prefers to keep her away so that she doesn't get hurt because of him) and through some good inner dialogue and acting we can actually SEE the character being conflicted and questioning what his family would think if they saw him like that (he grabs some photos of them and broking in tears of both sadness and rage at the same time), he ends up dismantling some sex traffickers and tracks down pedophiles within the cartels and rescues hostages that he takes to his lair so we can see him take care of those people and comfort them and everything's going to be ok (hell even they could show that Frank in his crazy mind actually sees his wife or children embodied in those innocent people that he just rescued and babbling some words but trying in a very clumsy way to hide his emotions). Eventually he sides himself with Micro to help him find his next targets because Micro also wants revenge and both have a common enemy, and in the way finding out that also his superior officers and teammates when he was in the military were involved in the gunshots that killed his family because he was a loose end in the whole Kandahar stuff but they are not the only ones to blame for their murder like this evil gubernamental and conspiracy thing that it's a Jason Bourne's ripoff; but that the CIA and the highest ranks in the army have strong links with the same organized crime that killed his family, and all of them were equally guilty for ruining his life (idk show us Frank and Micro hacking and interrogating some people that Frank knew back in Afghanistan that were involved with drugs and were consent hitmans for the corrupt high ranks but being criminals posing as law enforcers or the patriot bs), then Frank and Micro realize that this is bigger that they could ever imagine so they search for help in cops or CIA agents that are not corrupt (Nadine) which serves as character development for Frank realizing that he can wage war or crime more effectively with partners or assets than being alone all the time; but still he hunts down and kills common thugs, the bikers, the cartels and the corrupt high ranks in a parallel way through the season, because he hates crime from the lowest to the highest level in the same way beyond his personal revenge and we can see this with Frank breaking in his ex-superior officers and the NSA ranks houses seeing that most of them are sumbags whom are either pedophiles, killed their wifes, hire hitmans to eliminate loose ends like they did to Frank and openly have communication with the drug-lords, weapons traffickers and the mob.
And most importantly that the murderers, thieves, rapists, drug gangs, street thugs, mob bosses, dirty NSA agents, corrupt marines and CIA people actually are AFRAID of him and know that he isn't a dude to be triffled with, that everytime they hear the name "Punisher" or "Frank Castle" they know shit's about to going down except for the bigger fish in the CIA who think they are untouchable until Frank shows them that no one can escape punishment.
@@TheBatman39 that’s a good pitch. I see your vision. I completely agree with what you said about how the show starts by skipping the entirety of him hunting down the crime families involved in his family’s death. That could’ve been part of the season or a whole first season for sure. What could’ve been. Luckily I still enjoyed what we got and Bernthal was a fantastic actor. I feel your pain when you’re a fan of something and it doesn’t get adapted to other mediums, like tv and film, the way you would’ve hoped. Thanks for respectfully responding with well put together points. I see your argument very clearly.
People forget how brutal Arrow is in his show. There is a scene were he skins a man to torture him for answers. His partner finds the man's disfigured body and says "The man must have been very strong if you went this far"
Then Arrow says "He gave up very quickly. The rest was just practice"
I almost shat myself hearing that. Definitely something you do not hear a superhero protagonist say.
I honestly do not recall that lol
@@DavidRYates-tk2tqit was in a flashback
The prison scenes with Kingpin were phenomenal and I felt that it captures the essence of Punisher the best.
Why do I find the grey background so distracting? It should be red DAMN IT
sorry, my idea
Rock Games UK it’s actually better
@@slitherboy get fat aids mate
@@slitherboy all hail the mighty Lord cheddar!
It's from halo reach forge, it's weird
One issue with your point and thus the complaint: At the end of season 2, Frank actually become the Punisher. He reaches exactly the point you are describing - so seasons 1 and 2 are basically the origin story of the person we know from the comics (and I agree with you on Ennis's MAX run).
really though? thats just lazy writing impoo
Kakugen how is that lazy writing? Its an adaptation that gives him an origin story that shows him accepting his role.
@@Zimran03 It is lazy writing because they want the Punisher right now and their murder boners have no attention span.
All jokes aside, I can see where they are coming from, but now that the Punisher has been cancelled, it just hurts that much more :/
Corinus Richen Oh I thought you said what the show did was lazy writing. But you meant what the fans want from the punisher is lazy writing.
Andrew Brindley lol they are “ *frankly* ruining it”
Frank is Shane in a close parallel universe
for long time fans of the original comic book character, i can absolutely understand why they'd feel the way you do. but i loved sad, conflicted frank castle a lot. i hope that if they roll Jon over into the MCU that they keep that aspect of his character.
For me the biggest issue I have with the MCU Punisher is that they made his origin Jason Bourne lite. By making it a government hit, it cheapens the dramatic cruelty of "crime" doing it.
Yeah that’s was more political about addressing crooked politics but I liked the criminal way in the comics
It's still criminal either way and whether the a petty crook or the government does is not the point.
@@TheEnigmaticBM39 agreed
but the thing is it wasn't a hit on him or his family. it was to catch the drug lord.
@@TheEnigmaticBM39 disagree. Punisher's primary motivation in the comics is punishing street level criminals. He does punish government officials and larger conspiracies, but what makes him so divisive and compelling in the marvel universe is his justice on petty crooks.
I disagree about the comics Punisher not having any humanity, he's a serial killer and really sadistic toward people he thinks deserve it, but he has empathy toward they're victims and his compassion for him is big part of his obsession, this combination is what makes him such an interesting character.
Bingo.
Yeah. There's a comic I have where he Carried a little girl to safety also rescued homeless people while fighting aliens and then went back to find the girls lost cat.
I've always seen that as more compulsory than anything. It's like he's just going through the motions of being 'righteous.' The people he saves may as well be wearing the faces of his children (I mean.... they fucking might?). He's a brutal, dead-eyed psychopath looking for justification. The victims of the people he kills are just one side of the same coin.
@@eonsislept207 The Slavers and Widowmaker arcs show what the criminals do to people get to him and is at the very least why he goes as far as he does.
More like mass murdering killing machine.
Giving punisher a love interest is the only example a person needs to say they didn’t understand Frank’s character
Where's his love interest in this show?
@@Super_Broly how they tried to make Karen his girl? Her and Claire were TOTAL pass arounds they didn't work with anyone really so they got put with everyone
@@dakotaloven1362 A date with Matt and a kiss with Frank over two years... GASP! Don't be such a prude. Humans have sex-drives and the Punisher on the show isn't supposed to be a cartoon character who never sleeps, never loses his composure and never has to rub one out.
This is childish to complain about this.
@@christianc.christian5025 Agree. Like, if anything his relationship with Karen was honestly very complex and endearing to watch it develop, with ton of buildup between Daredevil Season 2, and his seasons in his own show. Frank is still a human with emotions, but extremely damaged and traumatized... and Karen herself has been very traumatized herself from her past experiences. Seeing two very emotionally damaged and traumatized people finding that shared kinship between each other was pretty nice to see.
Really, I personally think they should have went all the way with those two. I love Punisher, but having him just be a robotic killer 24/7 is just stale honestly. The status quo isn't always the good thing. The show has it flaws, but it excelled at making him very relatable in areas like that.
@@christianc.christian5025 actually no its sensitive to start passing around female characters on men because you think they can't stand on their own or NEED a bf a super one in this instance yea people have sex don't try to make me out to be vanilla I'm not cute troll tactic though people can fuck who they want but when they writers cant have Claire or Karen be alone and single they had to have them with someone its not needed women characters should be able to stand on their own without being arm candy for a big strong man
"The emotionless, crazed, obsessive psychopath is hard to sell as a hero"
*Jacket from Hotline Miami would like to know your location*
I think what's great about the Punisher comics is as the reader you kinda have an inner turmoil about if you ever are really rooting for him or not. The show tried a bit too hard to make you feel like you would have made the same choices as him
Friggin Boom Toys to be fair, that’s been muddled a bit in the comics to. It’s one of the reasons Chris Kyle decided to wear the Punisher Emblem into combat.
@@drstrangelove307 well Chris Kyle used the emblem to strike fear, the punisher isnt a good guy
Xavi Garcia how is he not a good guy? Does he hurt innocent people?
@ Theres a comic where Frank massacres a mafia family at their compound including there driver who had nothing to do with anything really and even after he begged for his life because he had a family so yeah sometimes he does. He also murders people for fairly minor crimes like purse snatching
@@SuperMicklovin he's certainly not a classic hero, but in the end he does serve a net morally good purpose (depending on your priorities). In the answer to the old riddle of "if you kill a killer, the number of killers remains the same" Frank respnds with "that's why you kill a thousand killers". Frank represents the extreme solution, now granted his own natural desire to kill clouds the issue, but in the end it's hard to argue with the overall results. Especially when you consider the sheer amount of lives he's probably saved in the long run (even if several of his motives aren't pure)
I haven't read every single version of the character, but I read a lot of them, to the point of Castle being one of my fave characters. That said, when it comes to live action portrayals, what I find to be the best most "accurate" version is Tom Jane in the last 15 minutes or so of his Punisher movie. Right there, when he breaks into Saint's compound and executes the main baddie's henchmen, and the way he does it, having a completely zombielike, deadpan expression while performing acts of sadism worthy of a slasher flick, that's Castle right there. There's no anger nor rage nor melancholy nor wish for vengeance. It's just coldness, Castle being an instrument of sheer punishment, on an almost Terminator like level. That sweet spot right there, for me, is the true Punisher. The eternal, ethereal, completely relentless soldier.
Frank Castle and Red Hood are my all time favorites.
The only thing he feels when he kills is recoil.
Where do you get your comics?
Paper or digital?
Im thinking about getting marvel unlimited but I don’t know if its worth it.
@@Alexi_Shalabyev digital for me. I miss the feel of actual comics, but especially with the plague about, digital has been the safer and more accessible route.
@@se7enist what app or site do you read from?
Why is it that no one can just reimagine a character every time people act like they don't understand the character this show was amazing let it stand on its own
It's just a clickbait title. Every time I see one of these videos, the author starts off by saying that they loved the material, they just felt it lacked something. But "They didn't understand the character" sounds like a full-throated criticism at first.
@@christianc.christian5025 But it isn’t even clickbait. Xavier makes it clear that he loves the material, and makes no attempt to say the material is bad. His argument is that The Punisher’s iteration of the character is dissimilar to the comic version, which…It is. And his title makes his argument clear, and this argument is one he expresses a lot in the essay. Saying you don’t “understand” a character is a criticism, yes, but it’s a constructive one at that. Saying that he expresses this criticism in his title and is therefore saying he hated it and is clickbaiting you, Is like saying that me understanding my favorite movies have plotholes is me saying they’re not good shows. Also, Xavier doesn’t just have “one little problem” with the show; his gripe is the protagonist’s character as a whole.
@@no1name2274 didn't say they did but this is a clear reimagine not a direct adaptation so you cant say thay misunderstood the character because tv frank is effectively a new character
@@no1name2274 read the comment again but slower
Because then you create a completely new character for that matter.
Whats great about Punisher is that he plays to a dark place in all of us that agrees with him. We hate criminals and kinda wish we could just mow them down without remorse. But we also have compassion and remorse that reminds us that isn’t the answer. Castle doesn’t, and we find that fascinating, because a small part of us wishes we could be him.
Yes, this is exactly why the punisher skull is so iconic, everyone has secrectly had fantasies about going out to do some punishing.
Nailed it
The idea that Frank Castle finding people he doesn't know that are evil and killing them is actually less "evil" than vengence. Why, you may ask . . . Because the premise of blind justice is how we, a civil society determines guilt and punishment. They could actually make a punisher version of THE PRETENDER. Would be a fascinating show.
Devin Haney is
@@seanhamilton4835 is what?!?
I remember the Terminator being a marketable killing machine.
Different era though. Back then ultraviolence was still awesome, now people would get offended
In terminator 1 he was an emotionless killing machine,
In terminator 2 he was an emotionless killing machine ... that learned why humans cry.
The emotionless killing machine bit only worked while he was the enemy, once he became the hero he had to learn emotions and give us a thumbs up in the end.
The good old days when ultra-violent R-Rated movies had toylines that were advertised on Nickelodeon.
As the villain, in the first one only. The later films don't have him mowing down people by the dozens. He only kills very few and only in self-defence, and most of his violence is directed at the evil terminator.
@@quqbalam5089 not entirely true but, not worth arguing down either.
2:29 In the Welcome Back Frank storyline before Punisher kills Ma Gnucci and she says he's just like her Frank says "Tell me something I don't know" then kicks her into the fire of her burning house.
Season 2 had absolutely no reason to exist unfortunately
Jigsaw was done so badly. The Punisher War Zone movie was an actually comic book accurate Jigsaw.
I think the first season's penultimate episode does a pretty good job at what you're talking about. He's on the verge of death dancing with his wife but he refuses to be with her and instead chooses war and violence.
It's that moment when you realize that he really isn't killing all these people for justice or vengeance but instead it's because he likes the blood, the violence, the war etc.
Idk just my 2 cents
absolutely, they stated many times in the show that Frank had a love for killing. Dude just acted like they never went over that ever
@@randy2152 Frank says in Season One that he would rather be in Mud and Shit in Afghanistan than be with his wife and kids. This was not mentioned once.
@@johnnotrealname8168 also admits at then end of season 2 that he just likes the killing of criminal. Shit at the end of season 2 he just guns down drug dealers. Is offered a job by the CIA and is like na. I just wanna murder dudes.
I think they were going to flirt with the idea that Frank is struggling with his morality for a few seasons before going full on Frank Castle from Warzone.There is a scene in Punisher 2nd season where the girl calls him out his bloodlust. She said he didn't even hesitate to kill those people in the bar and that it looked like he was just waiting for a reason to go ape shit. I believe in the same scene he told the girl that if it had been some guy they were after, he'd have just let things unfold and probably wouldn't have stepped in, and that the only reason he did was they went after a young girl; That is in character for Frank. They did try to work it in that Frank can't stop killing even if he wanted to, and it was mentioned in passing a few times in the first season that none of them came back from the shit that went down overseas.
I think if the show hadn't been cancelled, the third season may have started hitting home that killing is all Frank really has left. Look at how he executed Billy Russo at the end of season 2 before Billy could even get out two words. To me, it said that Frank will not hesitate to pull the trigger again.
To me Killing Billy meant how tired he was of just fighting he just wanted to put it to rest not Billy but he just didn't want to go through the conversation or apology of Billy, I dont believe Frank would of spared his ass at all he, it wasn't bloodlust just wanting it to be over
Yea buuuuuttt......why the fuck does it take 3 SEASONS for a main character to actually become ...his character ?
@Django Fett because the story is actually about a straight man breaking bad...? Punishers story is about a damaged man going around killing "bad people" . His origin shouldnt take 2 whole seasons. 2 or 3 episodes just like daredevil, and move on. Don the fucking skull. Besides we already know what happened to him from Daredevil, thats all we needed. Not some corny ass walking dead flashbacks.
@@lukeskyhigh442gaming6 Whoa in an earlier part of the season he hesitated from killing Billy Russo but now when he is on death's door and crying for forgiveness he double-taps him and walks away without a second look or a comment (He also knows Billy does not remember) so I think he just hates.
Jon and Jane did great job as the punisher in there own ways, let's stop comparing even if its ur opinion
It doesn't make you a sociopath to believe really evil people should die.
The show lost me with their treatment of Jigsaw. I literally guffawed at "Jigsaw's" reveal. Dumbest thing I've ever seen.
"Well, doc, Frank Castle REALLY hurt my FEEWINGS!
It made me REALLY SAD!"
😂
They really shouldn’t have used Jigsaw in season 2.
It's the Netflix effect. They did the same with Takeshi Kovacs in Altered Carbon. In the books he was a G man trained and conditioned to lie, cheat, murder and steal. It's was only after a couple hundred years, multiple deaths, and thousands of murders that he decided he was tired of the government and decided to go into business for himself. In trying to give them mass appeal Netflix reimagines their motivations instead of developing them as anti heroes.
Edit: They will do something similar with Geralt in The Witcher.
@@thecrimsonraven707 Highly recommended though after realising how badly they butchered the source material you might not like the show much.
@Alexandria Kieler Geralt is most certainly an anti hero. The fact that he is a mercenary and demands coin for his work is morally questionable. A hero would kill monsters out a moral duty. His use of excessive violence is also another example. He wasn't called the butcher of blaviken for no reason.
@Alexandria Kieler Mercenary means making money at the expense of ethics (morals). Sure sometimes Geralt for goes the rule or lowers the price but then again one time his price was a child... Ciri. As for blaviken the head man of the village knew the whole situation but was still the one to tell Geralt to leave and never return because even as Geralts friend he was appalled by the violence Geralt employed. Maybe you need to look up the definition of anti hero.
This might be why Takeshi Kovacs in Altered Carbon seemed so one dimensional to me I couldn't figure it out, didn't realize he had been dumbed down from the books.
@@vz-v He's very much the Walter White breed of anti hero in the books. You know he's a bad man and in some cases hes worse than the people he's fighting agains but you still want him to win.
It's like they made a series more on Max Payne than the Punisher tbh
That shit show was only pilunisher in name
@dindu nuffin lmao- imagine telling someone their opinion doesn't matter because they like japanese animation
@dindu nuffin your are an idiot. How is liking a cartoon making your opinion mean nothing? 😒
@dindu nuffin so watching invincible or regular show means im weird? Come on boy make some sense.
@dindu nuffin You sound you're compensating for something else. You alright irl dude?
This video makes it seem like a live action Punisher wouldn't be marketable or socially acceptable if he hunted down unrelated bad guys.... But that was the basis of the show Dexter for 9 seasons! All it takes is good writing.
it may not get the punisher, but there's a scene where franks being shot at and he does a forward roll and picks up a guy he recently killed mid way through the roll and uses him as a shield from the gun fire. So yeah, to me its now the best thing i could have ever seen
Well argued and thought out analysis. Great video man!
never thougth i would see you in the comments here XD, not that i am disapointed.
@Tom Henesey a really good dude to watch
@Tom Henesey he mainly does fight analysis on characters
2:20 - 2:50
Yes he is in a perpetual war with crime... BUT does he ever want to quit?... YES.
READ MORE PUNISHER STORIES!
Some of my favorites are the ones where he's conflicted about whether he wants to quit fighting his war.
Punisher: The Ghosts of Innocents
Punisher: The Prize
Just 2 off the top of my head.
He has this whole existential crisis where he's haunted by the vision of his dead wife, contemplates quitting, contemplates suicide, deals with the guilt of the collateral deaths he's accidentally caused in his war.
He decides to keep fighting.
But he does think about it.
I think he mainly only read the Ennis run that's why
This guy has never felt rage or loss, its clear by how he reads the books and views the character.
Dies1r4e
You mean the correct way?
@Mooky Blaylock Okay Boomer
@@GigaChadh976 Lol what?
I think season 3 would have given us the proper punisher we all wanted
We already had an accurate depiction of comic book Punisher, in the Punisher War Zone movie
@@fanofgodjimindiva2497 he was pretty comic accurate, it's just the movie that sucked 😂
@@jamielister3048 Yeah, but one of the complains about the movie by the casuals is that the main character felt too unsympathetic and unrelatable, like a human Terminator, but that's precissely how the original Punisher is supposed to be
@@fanofgodjimindiva2497 I couldn't agree more with that. I think its OK to give him some relatability and be able to sympathise with him but he is still a ruthless murderer so that was the best part about the film. It was just the tone and goofy violence that made it pretty bad in my opinion
I think you overestimate the people who allowed the dumpster fire that was season 2. How is it even remotely punisher accurate to spare a child predator. I think our culture needs to mature for another 15 years and get away from the political correctness that dominates media before we could get anything better than season 1.
This video really opened my mind to Punishers character. Thanks dude!
I agree with your points except for one thing. I believe it IS possible to market an emotionless robot of a serial killer to be someone the audience would like to watch. After the death of his wife and his dog, JOHN WICK becomes this person. John Wick is closer to an accurate Punisher than Bernthal's version. Bernthal is always a twitchy, anger management issue. Not so of an actual ice killer like John Wick and the 'comic' Punisher. John Wick's only focus in those movies was to be an arrow in the hearts of his enemies. That's it. No emotion. A cold calculated killer. Thomas Jane did this very well in 2004's Punisher. In that movie, the Punisher planned out every single move he was going to do all the way to the end before he fired a single bullet. Parts of that movie even succsessfully showed that he lost a lot of what made him human when his neighbors invited him for dinner. He is just a hollow man with one goal. He didn't burst out in fits of angsty rage. He just acted. 2004's Punisher was just a movie before it's time and not looked at closely enough to understand that Thomas Jane got the 'characterization' of the Frank Castle correct. All that movie was missing was all the practical tactical weapons and martial arts training that Keanu Reeves received for John Wick. The CHARACTER was on point though. Watch 'Dirty Laundry' on UA-cam to understand.
Yeah we live in an age where violent R rated entertainment is doing well right now. There's a market for it, it can be written well and sold and people will like it. People are just defending lazy writing is all.
John Wick was not a emotionless robot. He makes it very clear that he's just out for revenge because they took away the last connection to his wife.
John wasn't emotionless. He was pissed.
@@nateriver4951 Yeah but that's not the only way to make for an interesting story. As the history of film/tv has shown. MCU is just stuck on a generic formula.
@@nateriver4951 Also overall the way they depicted John Wick as taking on the underworld (which frank is supposed to do) and being this efficient killer, with a really cool choreography style and constant gunplay (once again originally frank's style) should've been how they did frank. If you wanna know how to do a good punisher watch equalizer and john wick. They're better anti-hero action set ups. and I'll be first in line to see john wick 3 when it releases.
Thomas Jane was the best punisher
This was perfect. 100% on point. Frank Castle is a killer who loves war, but can't admit it. The murder of his wife and children freed him to be what he wanted to be, but couldn't be when he had to pretend that he was a normal human and not a psychopathic killing machine.
1min 34secs in. And everything you said i FELT when i watched it. Exactly. I want Frank mowing down a dinner parties worth of wiseguys every episode lol
Ray Stevenson Punisher did that
I think the issue with Punisher is that it's a two-ended blade. You can make it accurate to the comics but casual audiences will be horrified and complain that Punisher is the bad guy to get him cancelled, or you can make him not accurate but casual audiences will be his fans and praise him to be a "true hero" to put him on a pedestal, and that is what's WRONG.
The Punisher is NOT an inspiring image and should NEVER be one either. He's the death sentence you should be scared of, being a criminal or not, because he only shows up when things have gotten completely wrong so he has to take matters on his own hands and that will affect both criminals and innocents no matter what. Punisher is the failure of justice and should be avoided at all costs 'cuz he doesn't solve issues, he just puts them down and leave them to come back.
Along with Punisher, Frank Castle also gets completely misunderstood. Frank was the good guy, the family man, the marine. When his family was gone, he went with them, and all that was left was the Punisher. So no, he doesn't want to have a family again, he doesn't have feelings for others, because that's not what he's about anymore. His only mission is his war against crime, and that's the point, he's what Wolverine always fears to become: a weapon.
Speaking of Wolverine, I think Jon Bernthal would've been way better for that than Punisher. Just look at him, he's an angry, screaming, emotional and ugly little man. He's as accurate to Wolverine as you can get. Punisher should have a more cold acting, to give that uneasy feeling of impredictability of what he could do, it should feel like he's a serial killer to criminals, like a horror film, because he's the monster coming for them.
I definitely agree. I am an avid Punisher fan. I've read everything from Welcome Back Frank to the subpar christmas special to that terrible Matt Fraction run.
I think what bothers me the most is the ignorance of Frank's motivation and how that defines him. The fact that seemingly nameless faceless mobsters took his family fueled his war on all senseless crime. If you add sense to it and the government then the character suffers. If you make it personal with Billy then you give him an eneemy. And honestly it worked in S1 but the negative effects showed in S2 when the jumbled mess of a season struggled to give Frank a reason to to do things and randomly turned him into the Punisher at the end in a goofy tease.
It also completely doesn't understand how adept the character is at strategy. He doesn't always just run in screaming. He scopes places out and goes in with precision. Military precision.
It seems Daredevil S2 nailed the character more in 4 episodes than this show did in 25. I say 25 because "Home" was a good ass episode.
Well said
@@ungreatfulduck750 Jason Aaron's Punisher Max run is fucking phenomenal and if you haven't read it then you're missing out. It's up there with all of Ennis and in a few small ways surpasses it.
@@ungreatfulduck750 you're telling me you haven't even tried to read it but you don't like it? Some writers just excel in other areas. I despite Matt Fraction's Punisher run but his Hawkeye stuff is golden. It just depends. I think Aaron did a great job on Punisher. The first few issues are nothing to brag about but once it picks up it really picks up and by the time you finish it you will be blown away. Besides man it's like 20-30 issues. Somewhere in that range. That isn't bad at all.
Goofy tease? Did you even watch season 2? That moment was being built up from the start. Just like he says, he realizes who he truly is, he just had hard time accepting it. In season 1, he had one motive - revenge. Once he was done, he tries to find peace. It's similar to the way he questions what he does in MAX. In season 2, he realizes that he can't live a normal life, that there's something fundamentally broken in him and he accepts that. We realize that both revenge and protection of Amy were just excuses for him to fight. That gives Punisher much more substance behind his persona rather than him just deciding - "You know what? I'm just gonna punish folks for the rest of my life". In Daredevil season 2, we saw Frank from the perspective of other characters, he was shown in bits and pieces, we never delved into his psyche as much as we did in Punisher. Simply put, DD season 2 was character exploration, while his own show focuses on development.
Stop being so damn one dimensional about everything being like the comics. Let the story be it's own thing. Whining about differences is what leads to zero creative freedom. Adaptation is not a copy, people need to finally realize that.
@@brucesnow7125 yes it was a goofy tease. It felt so different from the rest of the show. It's these like gangster caricatures acting like they're moreso about to have a disney style dance battle in this random location and then Frank comes in with a bad one liner and blows them away. Didn't match much of the rest of the show at all. And besides the series spent two fucking seasons to make him truly become the Punisher. No. That's not how you adapt a character. I don't care about them changing shit. I have a fondness for S1 despite the changes. I still think it's one of the best marvel netflix seasons. But it was just another origin story before we got the same rehashed origin story. Xavier even highlighted that. Frank Castle gives up on punishing. Conspiracy drags him back into punishing. He has internal struggle about being the Punisher. Builds to climactic ending and then he finally decides to be the Punisher. That's the only difference. So I was gonna have to wait until Season 3 for him to become who he was in DD S2. That's not character development. That's character regression so you can forcefully develop a character.
It doesn't help that Season 2 struggles so much from a writing standpoint that it has no idea what character it wants on the screen and for how long. Billy Russo is shafted too due to lazy writing. Everyone reacts to his face like it's a monstrosity when it looks like some scars he got in a small car crash going 30 on the way to a Starbucks. Then they try to give him a bad Harley Quinn that overpowers a trained homeland security agent just to create drama. Billy is basically killed by her too. That's the head of all that conflict between Frank and Billy. He just finishes it up. There's not much conflicting of ideologies there because the show also has him struggling with Amy and the suicide squad of teenager pals she used to have being chased down by Mr.Spooky priest.
He was an actual interesting character too but he got shafted too. We barely see him again after Episode 4 until he kills all his nazi friends and stuff.
But Frank is the main subject here so back to that. They struggle to force in this 2 episode arc of him shooting innocent people. It's so poorly done. They try yo act like it's some big character moment but open it up and drop it in an episode or two like nothin more than a slight nudge at the potential it could have had. Then the only indication we get that Frank is the Punisher deep down is him constantly implying it in angry rants about how he needs to be who he is and then you have the others constantly shrugging almost and saying "Frank is Frank" constantly. It's just another origin story. A poorly paced, poorly structured, badly executed one compared to season one with two underutilized villains (Three if you count the couple with next to no screentime) and underutilized side characters.
I'm not whining because it didn't get the character right. I'm whining because in addition to that it didn't even get basic fucking television writing correct. Change things up but at least do it well.
DD S3 changes things, adds new side characters, and completely reinvents Bullseye. I'm not complaining though because it was written masterfully and paced so well that it's easily bingeable. Punisher S2 makes you feel sensory overload. It's like being thrown in that glass crusher from Warzone.
A real punisher show should have it like a columbo show. He should be an anti-hero antagonist slowly and careful tearing apart the life of each villainprotagonist before finally killing the villan in some way.
Further to the Wolverine comparison, I feel like that's more a symptom of both characters lending themselves well to the "Post-Western" genre ala "Shane." Jack Reacher follows similar tropes, as does Rambo.
Comic book Punisher is closer to Dexter than to any movie/TV show Punisher.
He was the best part is Walking Dead season 2.
Shane grimey ass was the WD character
True!
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.
When he was banging ricks wife was cool too
Xavier it is 6 in the morning
7 for me
12 midday for me.
5 for me
@@mildishsadbino pm or am if qm why are up at this time
@@zzchillzz886 am
Netflex Punisher isa snarling growling beast of a man. Barley understandable. When in reality he's suppose to be a calculating professional of a killing machine. Punisher war zone got him right
What did you expect when they hire a guy who thinks he is Robert De.niro.
Preach!
punisher never was a hero, and never though like this about himself too. it was not about justice for him, it's about...punishment. but he got strong rules about who he punishes. one time mobsters got a kinda genius plan how to stop him. they made him think he accidentally shot little girl. he was devastated and almost killed himself for that, not because of guilt(even though he clearly felt it), but because his rules are for everyone, including himself. that's not just a desire to kill. he's a broken man, and he knows that.
Marv, "I love hitmen. You can do whatever you want to them and not feel bad about it."
you got it cancelled godzilla!!!
LONG LIVE THE KING
The point is right for what we've got, but we don't know what would've been coming. If you look at the last scene of the 2nd season, you pretty much got the madman, tricking criminals to meet, just to mow them down. It's like the two seasons were his origin and at the end of them he is fully the Punisher.
When I watched the punisher I never got the impression that he had any problem with killing people. He likes killing people but he wont kill innocents. He has no moral qualms with killing anyone as long as they are kinda bad. I also dont think everything is about revenge either it's mostly about protecting people, which fair enough isnt the same as just killing for fun but to say he doesnt enjoy killing people to protect I think is wrong
exactly ......he isn't about revenge he is about punishment he likes to kill he finds a sort of peace in it while he is doing it & it is his answer to everything ....kill them all .......I've got to kill 'em..................there is no conflict there at all he has to punish them & brutally at times there was no remorse when he killed agent orange I found that to be a quintessential Frank moment ..................he wants to protect the vulnerable look at what he says to Karen ...that he has to protect Amy he is going to kill them murder them !! I know he is trying to shock Karen away from him but she is passed that & that is the only thing Frank lies to himself about that there is something between him & Karen he might not like it but he still needs it
"Can't market a character like that" Never watched Dexter i guess.
To be fair, in Season 2, its flat out said he actually wanted what happened to happen because he wanted to inflict violence but couldn't. So he still had the urge to commit violence, but didn't have a reason to until he met who he did at the bar.
The fact that bad people are out their in the world have always been reason enough for frank
The Punisher is my favourite Marvel Character. No superpowers, just his physical prowess and experience as a soldier.. or can I say.. as a Commando? This guy is brilliantly written :)
One of my favorite videos from you, keep it up man
Underrated youtubers! We got some underrated youtubers here! Includes a guy with awesome deconstruction skills and a guy who's editing is hilarious! Come get your underrated youtubers!
Buttscratcher! Buttscratcher! Get your buttscratcher here! Buttscratcher? Buttscratcher? Buttscratcher! Buttscratcher! All jokes aside I agree with your comment, seriously underrated.
My favourite punisher moment. When he tricks all the mob bosses into one room to talk to “stop the killing on the streets” and then immediately guns them all down because he doesn’t give a damn about gangsters killing gangsters and by killing the mob bosses it’ll cause more bloodshed. Aaaah satisfying.
John Bernthal is the punisher who cries
A lot.
I love The Punisher so much he's probably one of most badass anti-heroes ever In MARVEL history.
99% Of People “Where’s the Hulk Retrospective”
1% “ hey good video Xavier”
zspidey 420 not true
They always ask "How's the videos going?" Never "how are you going Xavier?"
.1% where's ultimate alliance 2?
Hey where's the Hulk retrospective?
You’re not wrong. I really feel like Frank’s own show (even though I LOVED season 1) missed a trick by never just *giving us the Punisher.* Its really a problem endemic to all the Netflix show’s accept Daredevil: Jessica Jones can’t JUST be a show about a PI, Luke Cage can’t JUST be about a neighborhood hero, and Iron Fist can’t JUST be about a mystical kung fu. Not saying those shows shouldn’t have tackled complex or personal subject matter for those characters, but they just seemed *scared* to properly translate the central premise of the character consistently.
It’s why I’m kinda lukewarm on all the non-Daredevil show’s getting cancelled; that was the only series that didn’t seem like it was ever worried about being anything but exactly what it should’ve been.
Also, 1:00 shots fired.
I think all of the others were focusing on very drawn-out origin stories, more or less. Their first seasons were all about their first forays into their superhero identities, the second were all about self-reflection and deconstruction of what was not yet working. It was looking (to me, at least) like they were planning on having them develop into their more true-to-character versions over season 3 and fully embrace it at the end, much as the Punisher was set up to do at the end of his second season.
It was interesting watching how each second season progressed that a little more with each one-EVERYONE was deconstructed into an asshole in JJ s2, LC was struggling to integrate his dark side, weaknesses and failures, IF got back on his feet by the end (sort of; that one was a flop) and DD came almost entirely full circle by the end of his third season.
While I truly enjoyed the Netflix series, (I just finished Season 2 last night,) I have to agree with the opinion in this review. I never really felt like I was watching "The Punisher," I was just watching a character named "Frank" played by Jon Bernthal.
Man I'm so happy this channel exists, it makes me so happy to hear someone talk about comics. At least in an honest, passionate, down-to-earth fashion. Mr.Mendoza you've done it again.
P. S Praise lord cheddar.
thank you king
This video finally contextualized why I didn't really care for the Netflix show, but I loved Frank in Daredevil Season 2. He was an unrelenting monster and was hellbent on getting revenge. It was cathartic seeing him go after that creepy store clerk. He was a mad man. When the show came out, he just came off as every other anti hero. He didn't stand out. And the stories of those two seasons didn't have much to chew on. Season 1 was a retread and Season 2 Frank was just dragged along for the ride.
Yeah, Daredevil Season 2 set him up perfectly for killing other criminals after donning the costume, gearing up and destroying his home. I think his solo show should have been like an episode-of-the-week thing where we follow all kinds of criminals and have Frank as a horror-monster type of villain who appears and just brutally kills everyone. Maybe have an overarching plot for the season, and that's it. I loved how Frank seemed almost Terminator-like in the first few episodes of Daredevil Season 2. That's what his solo show should have strived for in my opinion.
I. Couldn't. Agree. MORE!!!
The "Punisher: MAX" feels like the most consistent versiom of The Punisher. He's basically just the angel of death/grim reaper. He doesn't really change or take much exception. It's really scary, in all honesty. But it's consistent
Kudos for using Volition's The Punisher videogame soundtrack in the background. That game is truly a masterpiece.
As with every superhero that has existed for a long time, there are lots of different interpretations. You just have a favorite one, like anyone else.
For example, I loved the idea from DD season 2 that the bullet in Frank's head forced him to live in the exact moment his family was killed in front of him ALL THE TIME - something they then totally dropped for his own show.
I honestly love the Netflix series despite its differences 🤷♀️
Absolutely agree with this. The Punisher never retires or shows any kind of mercy, that's the whole point of the character
"I don't smile much. In fact I don't smile at all. But that was one of the times I got close"
Frank 'punish ya' castle after shovin crime boss mama through a window
@@nicholasscott5905 That's my man
Bro idk what you mean by he isn't sure if he wants to seek revenge and keep killing. He wanted to kill EVERYBODY
That PS2 game music brought back nostalgia
Smith Wesson We seriously desperately need a new Punisher game. It’s been too long now.
@@songoku9348 have you played the genesis one?
@@badasahog Not the genesis version, but the arcade.
Thomas Jane's performance in The Punisher 2005 game was soooooo incredible. That was the definitive Punisher and he practically was The Punisher that was in the MCU as he interacted with Kingpin, Iron Man, Matt Murdock, etc. That game was such an underrated blessing and I wish that game was backwards compatible already for all systems
The biggest mistake people make nour days, is that people put morality before need , philosophy before must, and then underline what they did by saying "that's what normal people do", but forgetting about the fact that the idea of "normal" isnt even a thing, we created it over time, and underlined what makes someone "good" or "bad", as if there is such a thing... people are to scared to deviate from the "norm" in their mind, to truly think about world in THEIR eyes, not with the eyes society build you in with.
He is a good good guy because he destroys the "stereotypical" evil, the way he does it is considered "evil" is well , but the problem is that people prioritize the action of the hero before the result he gives through death, people put death as the most horrific thing that there is, whilst forgetting many would prefer death rather than suffer from the abuse thouse "evil"criminals would put on them with.
I wouldn't want him to be real, only because of one thing, his judgement , which isnt perfect, many criminals could be redeemed.
I enjoy your insight!
I wish more people where like you!
@@Alexi_Shalabyev Then, you're failing to understand the situation.
This guy is advocating for an even more pompous, self-fellating version of objectivism, a failed philosophy where being selfish = virtuous. What you do and who you are matter. If "the end result" is the primary factor, then there are an awful lot of rapists who have killed other rapists out of one motivation or another.
Go pin the gold star on their erections if you think this is so brilliant.
This is mostly from the MAX run. 616 Frank was a great father and a good husband. He wasn't a crazy dude.
I like when creators get a different story/pov in their creations. It’s refreshing and leads to interesting ideas and plots. But I do like staying true to the original.
This was spot on man!
Punisher in DD season 2 was awesome