Why is Tesla Going Backwards with Powerwall 3?
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- Опубліковано 22 сер 2024
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In this video, Joe explains why Tesla's move back to string inverter architecture for Powerwall 3 is a step in the wrong direction.
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I feel like Powerwall 3 is directly targeted at NEM 3.0.
Panels have dropped in price such that micro inverters are as expensive or more expensive than the solar panels. Optimizers are only slightly better. And labor to install the gateways and other power components required for solar + battery is also significant.
PW3 keeps the install for a solar + battery as simple as possible, providing a cost effective solution for the most common NEM 3.0 install.
The down side is less optimization and flexibility.
I think it make sense for a company looking to sell volume. The system will probably make sense for most consumers. It will not meet the needs of everyone.
New customers who don’t already have solar.
It might make sense for existing customers to retrofit their array to stay with or to keep to Tesla, but I’m guessing many won’t want to pay the extra labor cost and likely material loss cost of now having inverters to resell.
I’m expecting Tesla to introduce an AC coupled solution at some point
Powerwall 3 allows for AC coupling so you don’t have to use Tesla panels or their inverter. I have enphase microinverters connected to my PW3
That's cool to know I was thinking of doing just that ....
Agree. And SunPower just announced pairing their solar with PowerWall 3. Hardly a closed system like is mentioned in the video.
@@darthsirrius AC coupling for PowerWall 3 was not available at product launch. It was always stated as coming later as a software update - targeted for April. Assuming they held that date, it should be available now - or shortly. Tesla doc site currently says: When Powerwall 3 is installed with Backup Gateway 2, AC-coupled solar can be installed with the system.
Powerwall 3 AC coupled was released two weeks ago!
@@darthsirrius
Tesla’s Powerwall 3 website states that it can be AC coupled to existing micro inverter systems!
Constant background music is annoying.. Your messaging is good, but the music causes an annoying distraction.
music didn't bother me. A 12 minute video of mostly talking needs a track underneath it in my opinion.
I rarely even notice it !
The pointless camera angle changes is also annoying
EcoFlow did a video on the new Delta Pro Ultra where the music was so loud that nobody commented about the product, just complained about the music video infotainment approach. A day later EcoFlow reissued the video sans music.
@@darylfortney8081 honestly you guys dont know nor do you empathize with the fact that creating a video just talking to camera is not how anyone does this sort of thing. You typically have another angle to give some variety to the shot, and also so if you need to cut something from the straight on camera, you have another angle to jump to. Wondering why so many are criticizing the small details of otherwise pretty damn informative content that you get for free?!
When microinverters and power optimizers (often referred to as
Module-Level Power Electronics, or MLPEs) were introduced to the
solar landscape, they offered reduced LCOE by increasing energy
generation.
The trade-off for that improved performance is system cost. In
today’s market, MLPEs cost approximately 2-2.3 times more than
traditional string inverters. This higher cost may have been justifiable
when equipment costs were 2-3 times what they are today. However,
as PV module and other solar equipment costs have dropped,
inverter costs have become a larger portion of the total system cost
and a more impactful driver of LCOE (Levelized Cost of Energy). With two important variables
to consider, energy output and inverter cost, Tesla took a holistic
approach to ensure their solar inverter would provide the best value to
their customers.
Yes, 5 out of 7 quotes I got were pushing for Enphase system with micro inverters. I rather use the money to get more solar panels, it is true that PW3 might be a single point of failure, but if the micro inverters break down the road, I will need to get someone to climb on top of my 2 stories roof. Labor is so expensive in CA, I rather just have someone to fix what's on ground level vs on the roof. PW3 has 6 MPPT ports, that should be enough to have multiple strings for different directions and shadings.
@@Mr_Nobody_CAi have been a renewable energy contractor for 20 years. Go with the company that does not spec microinverters or solaredge. You will have problems that you will have to pay for for years to come. A central inverter may fail in time but it will cost a fraction to replace compared to the labor that enphase does not pay installers to change out their microinverters. And if Enphase goes belly up like Solaredge is... Your screwed on that equipment replacement.There will always be a different central inverter that can be changed.
@@rhinechesshire6583 Thanks, When I started researching for home solar couple months ago. One solar company told me that they have not installed anything other than micro inverters system for many years and only uninformed home owners would go with string system. It sounds great in theory but not worth the cost benefits to me. Thanks for pointing out labor part. I totally agree.
great read
@@Mr_Nobody_CA Yeah but the warranty's are 10 to 25 years on those. Had one micro inverter go out at 4 years replaced with no cost to me although it did take about a month . Sun Power system
Powerwall 3 is definitely a step forward:
Higher output of power
Services larger appliances
The step backwards referred to here is focused around the inverter system now integrated into the PW3:
You can still use microinverters with Tesla Powerwall 3, you do not have to use the integrated inverter. Further, when an efficiency rating of at least 85% is not met, then the microinverters setup is the only setup that should/would be used with it.
I jsut had a PW3 installed. I switched to their inverter by choice but didn't have to change my panels, just my MCIs for the panels. Was not a big deal. Still a one day install and now my system is actually more efficient than it was with solar edge. Furthermore the software tesla uses is so much better than the solar edge software, it's scary. Solar edge was not very good to be honest.
Tesla PW3 is not more efficient than a SolarEdge system, but it is a great system.
Looks like he's selling for the vendor that provides the biggest profits. Not sure...
- Closed system - Well sure you cant use other battery systems or inverters because the new PW3 is just that an all in one unit. That being said Tesla still offers the Powerwall 2 as far as I am aware for anyone that needs that flexibility.
- Intelligent load control with the Telsa PW3 isn't really needed due to the massive LRA start capabilities of 185 amps. This crazy amount of surge capability effectively makes intelligent load control a moot point. In cases where someone needs more load they may already be running two or even three power walls. Usually this option is at least $2000-3000 dollars to add per electric panel. While I do think its nice to have so you can see what's drawing power and when on a more granular level. It certainly adds cost to replace the panel.
- Generator support in my opinion is something that most Tesla customers do not care about in my opinion. They want to electrify everything anyways and reduce emissions you know for the environment. This option will add another $1000 to a quote.
- I have seen some tests done with and without optimization on panels. From what I can see most MLPS devices introduce some level of clipping weather its AC or DC with Tigo. In these cases the clipping introduced usually negates any benefit seen from the "optimization" it seems to be mostly a break even affair. You are clipping your output but you are optimizing your clipped output. Also most newer panels have bypass diodes that sort of self optimize partially shaded panels. Shaded portions of the roof can just be put on separate strings of their own as in most cases you will have spare string inputs. All that being said the main thing you are gaining is the panel level info which is nice to have but as you said adds cost. This option usually adds $150 dollars per panel in costs plus another $1-2000 for a specific smart gateway device.
All that being said just these nice features can add $5000-$7500 for a small system with battery backup and even more to a larger system. Makes sense why Tesla went with the all-in-one option. Less to install, less to manufacture, ship, support and replace under warranty.
Every time I think I have made up my mind like I thought I did with the Enphase system Tesla threw me a curveball with the PW3. Way less money for a full home backup because of the massive LRA capability with less to install, license vs Enphase. Drawbacks are that I have a less redundant system with no per panel monitoring and less warranty. In theory one could add a Tigo system to the Tesla for per panel monitoring but now you have two separate apps vs Enphase. I do have a fair amount of shading on my roof so in theory I need panel level optimization but then I see various tests where it seems that maybe optimization isn't the end all be all.
Well said, I am shopping for Solarr too, from all the quotes I received, it seems like I am better off just go with PW3 string system vs Enphase micro inverters. For the price of 10 micro inverters, I can probably add another 3 400 kWh panels. With NEM 3 in CA, I care more about charging up PW3 before sunset than total production. PGE pays very little for your excess production.
Not to mention, if you are on battery, don't use your range or dryer if you want it to last longer. Go snap the breaker on the hot water heater or HVAC unit if you want it to last longer. I prefer that allowing me to choose what I want vs a critical load panel or intelligent load control. If you want more stuff going buy more batteries or get powershare going with your tesla vehicle, starting in 2025 or now with cybertruck.
@@Mr_Nobody_CA Yep I am in the same boat here in CA with PGE. Looking at a 10-12 panel system with a single PW3 or with 3 Enphase 5P batteries if I want whole home backup to match the output of 1 PW3. Not to mention Enphase upcharges for home backup so the cost is quite a bit more. I mean you technically get more in the way of flexibility, warranty and monitoring. Plus if you want to add more storage you can add in 5KW increments but it does take up way more install space. 🤷♂
Correct I n many levels
I Totally disagree. Only 20 percent of pv systems need MLPE’s for shade mitigation. Also all new modules have multiple bypass diodes that prevent entire strings getting effected by one shaded module. Like in any situations use the right product for the job. 80% of jobs are perfect for string inverters and less failure points.
I chose a microinverter system over Tesla's plain-vanilla because of my serious differential shading issues. Tesla punished me when it came to the Powerwalls because I hadn't gone with their solar program. And yeah, Tesla became harder and harder to reach, downright scary.
Don't worry. Rather than Tesla buying Span, they are developing their own system. It will be released in 4 or 5 years, just when the rest of the market has moved on to something much cheaper and more efficient.
Sounds about right
PowerWall 3 system objective is simplicity and easy install. Tons of feedback from actual installers went into the PowerWall 3 system design. Joe didn't mention the meter collar that also goes with it - hugely simplifying whole home backup wiring. And the integrated 6 MPPTs. Just need one 60A breaker in your electrical panel to connect this up. Way more complicated installs with other solutions. Wiring a Span panel would be exactly opposite of what they are looking to achieve with this solution. Large power output, huge surge capability, scalable storage - load management not required.
Solaredge is not a good "cost competitive option" option due to the high faiulre rate of createing both a weak link in optimization and a central inverter.This is proven in there plummeting stock price and installer abandonment.Microinverters are not necessary in locations with 3 or less sub arrays to a central inverter due to multiple MPPT inputs on a central inverter.We should also be talking about Enphase's requirements for monitoring (The gateway..) that is only warranted for 5 years and costs $700-$1000 to replace to honor their 25 year microinverter warranty. Modern 100+ cell panels have built in shade mitigation that makes microinverters unjustified with there initial cost in most cases. The biggest hurdel for residential solar has always been the upfront cost and return on investment. Despite Teslas short comings (wich there are more than a couple) I believe that it is smart business to make solar more affordable for consumers with equipment that is much more cost effective than the Enphase and Serviceedge technologys. SMA was the most dependable central inverter ever made and i can prove it with there inverters i put in 18 years ago. They handed Tesla there market share with there new hybrid only option that is not cost competitive. BTW, i did a Powerwall 3 install today that is AC coupled to a SMA -41 inverter, so your information is not accurate.
As an experienced installer, my bias is toward system components that are all from the same company. Frankenstein systems made up of components from different manufacturers have given me a lot of problems. Personally, I also favour string inverters because I do ground-mount solar and much prefer to run higher voltage DC. You did make some great points re generator support .. I’ll have to look to see what Tesla had in mind for that. Shutting down loads isn’t a big deal IMO .. humans can use their brains and not roast a turkey when the power is out.
I enjoy your videos and have learned so much about solar and have recently begun the project to bring solar to our home! Thanks Joe!
Great to hear!
You can add the Tesla gateway to be able to use the micro inverters. Take a look at Tesla meter switch. Game changer for installers.
Would this allow an AC Coupled system like Enphase to use the Powerwall 3? I just looked at info on the backup switch and it looks great in terms of installaton, unfortunately, no power utility in Florida has approved the use of them yet.
@@pauld315 Presently you need the Gateway 2 for AC coupling with Powerwall 3. I believe the meter collar alone and PowerWall 3 don't have CT inputs, and those are needed to sense the power output of your AC coupled solar. But sounds like you need Gateway 2 anyway, since Florida hasn't approved the meter collar (meter switch).
intelligent load control So you're saying people aren't smart enough to just Turn off what they don't need.
Indeed, this looks like inventing shortcomings to proof your point with useless features that bring completely in the system. Tesla will never deliver on this. They think first principles, best part no part, best process no process.
I have found Span smart panel to be really expensive($5k+ to purchase and install) and in my opinion it just isn't worth it. I just installed a Emporia Home Energy monitor($165) and made sure I can monitor the energy usage of important circuits with CT Clamps at a much lower price point. If I am running my house in a grid down scenario I can just go out to the panel and turn off breakers that I have clearly labeled on my main panel or subs.
Exactly, smart panels are going to have to come way down and cost and they still will not have much market penetration..
We installed more than 800 systems since 2006. Properly installed PV Sring system makes more kWh than those with MLE's . Roof work is hazardous. It is what it is.
I had Tesla solar installed this year. The whole process went very smoothly, and I am quite satisfied with the system and service provided so far. 4kw solar panels, no battery. The panels are the 405watt Qcells, I believe they're assembled in Dalton, GA.
The Lumin Smart Panel has state of charge integration with Powerwall 3 and provides intelligent load control based on customer preference and grid status :).
Meanwhile hardly anyone buys a smart panel. They're just too expensive
@@boblatkey7160 They were too expensive. They will be paid for with the IRA. States just need to release the damn funds already.
I'm a little confused. The one word used ad infinitum on this channel in the last year is "ecosystem". A harmonious suite of components singing in tight harmony has been presented as a positive. Now--not so much?
What about bypass diodes on the solar panels? Doesn't that enable the string method which is simpler to maintain as now you are back to a DC system. Also, two telsa powerwalls would enable redundancy, granted that would be more expensive then micro inverters that have quite a bit of redundancy built in but also a higher change of a single component failing... as to the locked in system l, 100% agree there.
Joe didn't talk about bypass diodes which is disappointing. Also showed a graphic of the single shaded panel bringing down the full string, which is been proven to be not the case with present solar panels and string inverters. Tesla is not a locked in system either, as can use any vendor solar panels, and can AC couple to other solar systems also.
@@billjohnson3344 They changed that recently where they now allow people to AC couple. It was not available at launch.
I can now install a single PW3 with 10kW of PV for well under $2/wdc. It is a game-changer, especially in demand-based markets.
My first response is different thinking, design, and flexibility.
PLUS one LARGE difference is Powerwall 3 is LFP technology/chemistry so some rules changed due to this. GOOD changes...
As an energy company not focused on Net Metering, we instead think off grid. Why, because the grid companies have NEVER been a friend nor favorable to their customers.
Simplicity in Off Grid design.
1 Inverter, as many batteries as you need, and options to charge from Solar, wind, hydro, grid, and small generators all feed the one inverter and charge /manage the LFP Batteries.
Near zero maintenance and parts are cheap to completely swap out.
It is all how you think and what problem you are trying to solve for your customers.
You are now seeing different thinking and design entering into the mainstream solar industry and that is why all the shock in your design world.
Not here to take shots at your business or video, but merely to point out another thinking and design influences much you are seeing in the marketplace.
An LFP Battery centered solution has so many opportunities for home owners at 50% less cost than last year this time. Quicker energy independence and can add on to these systems as cash allows. And all with near zero maintenance.
What better for a home owner - cheaper system, less maintenance, and path to never have an electric bill ever again. The money goes to the home owner - not a lease or shifted $ from the grid.
Powerwall 3 can now be part of the off grid design.
I consider this moving forward for the home owner and adding to the disaster the Solar industry is in and only getting worse.
Again - just thinking different and design for the home owner is playing out.
Totally agreed, NEM 3.0 pretty killed the Enphase micro inverter business IMO, it makes little sense to pay extra for micro inverters, need more batteries.
With the technology improvements and the cost of the simple String inverters coming down and the Optimizers and Mirco-inverters going up there's almost zero reason for 90% or more of the people wanting solar not to use a regular string inverter. Tesla seems to get that. You should consider anything else a feature, sort like heated / cooled seats in a car. For the gains that you get from them it will always be cheaper to add an extra panel or two if you have the space. Single point of failure sure, but it will most likely be faster and cheaper to get the string inverter replaced.
Good point about the much lower solar panel prices of today.
It is absolutely not cheaper to replace a single string inverter compared to one micro-inverter. And I'm also not sure if the integrated inverter within the Powerwall 3 is replaceable.
@@alzuu1 What info are you going by to make that statement, because it can be true and not true based on the scenario. I'm strictly talking about labor in the scenario that the parts are under warranty. I see that wasn't clear. you are correct that the cost of one micro-inverter is cheaper to buy than a String inverter. But if you are talking nothing being under warranty, depending on the work needed to get to that one micro-inverter, I can see it costing more than having a string inverter replaced. Take an SMA inverter. I've seen the newer ones and they are modular. You don't even have to disconnect any wiring to replace the inverter just a plug. It separates from the base and you just put the inverter part back on. It'll take the tech 15 minutes to change. The charge for just getting on the roof would cost more than that hour labor charge. And then they charge you for two techs by the hour. At least where I live.
Helpful info! Is it true that Powerwall 3 can only be used with Tesla solar panels? I can understand why it can only be used with Tesla inverters, but it seems like any brand panel can give a DC current that the powerwall can accept. I also don't understand why Powerwall 3 can't be used with DC power optimizers so you can have panel level monitoring.
PowerWall 3 can be used with any vendor solar panels. Has 6 MPPT tracker inputs, which is rare (non-existent) in a single inverter - very nice. Don't need power optimizers on the roof, which are just more components to fail. Video is additionally misleading showing old string inverter myth of one panel being shaded and impacting all panels - a thing of the past with bypass diodes in solar panels. And DC coupled solution right into the battery for best efficiency. Agree that panel monitoring is nice, but reduced power output detection and can be accomplished without this.
From my Tesla's quote, they use QCell panels. The biggest problem with Tesla is that they would only mount panel horizontally. For my situation, I need to mount one row horizontally and one mount vertically, so most likely I would get REC/Panasonic panels with the PW3. They are bit smaller than the Tesla QCell and have better degradation ratings. I got 2 quotes from other vendors and their prices are competitive against Tesla so you don't need to go with Tesla if you want PW3, you can mix and match with different vendors.
Great points! Given that battery technology is changing faster than just about anything else, I'd really hesitate on getting a battery that was packaged with a lot of other technologies that are changing more slowly. Having everything in one package may seem nice and convenient, but you may want to upgrade each piece of it at different times depending on the technology improvements, and if you do that, then Powerwall 3 loses much of its appeal.
Good video. Personally I think Tesla’s Powerwall3 is a tradeoff. Yes they committed to string architecture but they also converted to a less volatile battery chemistry.
So you cannot have Tesla power wall 3 a span and different solar panels?
You're just wrong. In Australia, the most advanced solar market in the world, the most popular inverter is the Fronius. No one has proved that microinverters or DC optimisers provide any better output than a standard string inverter. Plus you can still AC couple a Tesla PW3 - so your main point is wrong.
I have 16 kW stings with several inverters since 2012 still working great. Micro inverters or optimizers have never been an option for me due to installation costs and hardware costs and so I do not agree with you at all. Maybe in some special circumstances.
It has to be just cost cutting, less warranty exposure. SunPower tried to compete with it's installers too 🙄
I just received 3 bids for solar and the only difference between the 3 bids were the solar panels. All 3 solar companies had extensive positive reviews.
From this video it appears that all 3 made the wrong recommendation: 2 Powewall 3’s.
The bid that I was leaning towards has 2 PW 3’s and 44 REC Alpha Pure-RX 460 Watt panels (20+k watts), which will fit perfectly on our rear (SW facing) roof.
We live in South Texas, a tall 2 story house on a hill, with roof facing SE and SW - there will never be any shade anywhere near these panels. Our utility is 1:1, we were looking at 2 PW’s for enough power for our home, and for back-up as we don’t have a generator (all bids for a generator were around $30k - due to generator size and unique install conditions). Main power backup need is to keep our pool circ pump running (300 W) in a power outage during a freeze, heat and hot water are Natural Gas.
The cost is in the low $50k, it looked very good to me, but this video shows that ‘string’ is going backwards and that ‘micro-inverters’ are the way to go. I’ll do more research as this counters what the solar companies here are recommending.
Thanks for the feedback. Powerwall 3 is faster and more profitable for the installers to install. However, most owners consider having MLPE like SolarEdge or Enphase to be preferable in terms of functionality.
SolarEdge FAIL rates are high. Installer support is 30-45 min. Multiple calls and truck rolls are required replacement a part and that adds a lot of expense. Lead time to get SolarEdge to replace parts is weeks or months of down time. Customers phone support is non-existent. Installing SolarEdge is a failed project to start with.
Span materials are $2500. Qualified electrician, drywall and paint adds another $2000. At that point it is slightly more cost to add an additional battery and have more backup capacity and not worry about controlling loads. Span is a cool tool to optimize but batteries hold energy and have a return on investment.
Tesla publishes a low battery purchase cost on their website. They come out and add costs depending on the complexity of the work required. Not a good practice.
I wish Tesla had single panel production data. They said they are adding string level data at some point. Panel failure is extremely rare and solar panels are now so cheap. Put in more panels than you need.
I heard newer panels nowadays have bypass diodes that don't interfere with the string passing power on than the old type of diodes that don't bypass, no optimizer or micro needed.
This is correct - and should have been covered in the video. The graphic of the leaf falling on one panel and knocking down all panels to 50% is flat out wrong. Optimizers or microinverters are only needed if you have complex and several partially shaded panels per string where multiple bypass diodes can't fully conduct. If you have such a thing, you can generally get around this by splitting the array up with sections - since the Tesla PW3 has a whopping 6 MPPTs. And if not, can add Tigo electronics for only the panels that experience the complex shading.
Yes, for the last 25 years!
My biggest issue with Tesla is the lack of bidirectional charging, they're afraid of cannibalizing the power wall sales.
Also owning a Tesla car I have to admit tesla customer service is terrible if you can't complete a task on the phone.
It’s available for the Cybertruck, and will be available on other models in the future.
@@astewart1900
Thanks for the heads up, hopefully other Tesla models will follow suit
That’s why it is better not to have micro inverters on the roof. Imagine you can do direct DC to DC charging from solar panels + PW3 to vehicle at 13kwh speed. There will be no conversion loss. We probably need that kind of speed for big EV trucks down the road.
@@astewart1900 I WANT IT NOW SO I DONT HAVE TO GET A POWERWALL 3
I wish they had double the capacity not higher output per unit time. Like about 40 kw or more. Yeah the lack of communication that my neighbors reported with Tesla Solar then Solar Ctiy convinced me to go with a local Sun Power Vendor.
string inverters will win out for reliability, resiliency and ease of replacement for the entire life of the system. Who cares about module level efficiency if your roof-level power electronics die after 5 or 10 years. So many horror stories out there for Enphase and SolarEdge failures.
Maybe they want to have their own system, without dealing with so many variables, using different manufacturers devices.
But Tesla could have easily produced their own micro-inverters or optimizers
@@SolarSurge Too many points of failure. Think of solar roof, where not so easy to replace a microinverter and you want 30+ years longevity. Enphase has a great warranty, but that does not mean no failures. The roof is a nasty place for power electronics.
This seems overly tilted against Tesla’s approach.
Claiming SolarEdge is technically superior is nonsense. There are cases where SolarEdge makes more sense but they have significant reliability concerns and also support issues.
This presentation is perfect for newbies like me. Thanks!!! 🎉
A discussion of the effects of EMP / CME on roof mounted micro inverters compared to All DC and centralized AC conversion should be provided. 😎
What was the price $9k for PW3 and $24k for three PW3 dc pack 42kw? total $33k, or hybrid inverter 12kw for $3700 and 48kw battery for $9600 total $13.3k. With the 20000 you did not spend drop 6k on solar panels 14kw pv , if the grid goes down and you are tied, cut the grid, switch to off grid mode. Wth buy a 2nd inverter as a backup, still $10k less and adds 14kw pv.
What I don’t understand is all this talk about the costs of solar panels dropping dramatically yet my quotes remain the same or in some cases have gone up WTF? The true ROI seems to be anywhere from 10 to 20 years…
That is correct.
I gotta say that remembering how to design with string inverters again has been challenging. It's something that I have not had to do for 8 years, and trying to remember how to do this has been painful.
Wow that's scary, it is ridiculously simple..
Powerwall 3 can work with Maxeon/SunPower micro-inverter solar generation system for example. They can be programmed to talk to various systems, per the Tesla technical presenter at a Powerwall 3/SunPower partner demo day I happened to go to.
Tesla is doing the same thing Enphase has been doing for decades, making us use all of their products!
This is the first of your videos that I have watched. I like the amount of information that you incorporate and how you attempt to simply and explain the different parts and what role they play.
I think that Tesla is just trying to keep they're system simple and cost competitive across the solar wave.
You can use any panels you want. Your videos are usually very accurate but this is misleading
As a Tesla owner and investor I 100% agree and can’t understand why Tesla hasn’t gone to mirco inverters on their panels vs string to the Powerwall 3!
Because power electronics on a hot roof are a high failure rate item, and extra difficult to swap out for a solar roof install, and unnecessary cost. They have 6 MPPT strings and an integrated box for battery/solar/inversion. Going for simplicity of install and reliability - not complexity and high maintenance.
Yeah 6 strings is a lot
Tesla Solar Inverter Architecture White Paper. I have this file on my gdrive it doesn’t so up on a general search. In a nut shell price.
Levelized Cost of Energy ($ / kWh) = Lifetime cost of system Lifetime energy generation
Tesla actually got it right and this video got it wrong. Only 20% of PV systems benefit from module level Power electronics. We were sold that this was the new wave and it’s not. You are 3-4k to every job and tons of failure points. Tesla got it right. This guy got it wrong. That’s 18 years of experience in solar.
Appreciate your detailed and factually accurate analysis
Not sure where you are seeing that Tesla Solar is required with PW3. Also, nothing stopping you from adding a generator.
Why? Because string withboptimizers is better, cheaper, and safer to the installer as far as warranty. IE a well known system from Germany stopped serving USA now if you have a single microinverter goes out, the ENTIRE system has to come off roof and be replaced with all new microinverters or a better string system with optimizers. Both have deadly power on roof if you arent trained, however, dc repulses an idiot while ac hold them to fry. A string inverted system is the least problematic and doesnt require removing the roof system for issues. An optimized system with panels using the latest system like run half panel ability is just better and less complicated parts on the roof sitting at 120F is way better. Just saying that the string system is a great, tested, system with available optimizers, shutdown systems, lower points of failures while yes that can also be a bad part too. Im not saying dont get a microinverter, I'm not a Tesla super fan either, I'm actually taken with the 48V Big Battery Ethos fan over Powerwall. Just saying that string is not bad, not antiquated, and microinverter is not hyper better
You are very biased in your Tesla comments. You seem to only point out the negative points with the Powerwall 3 and completely ignoring their many advantages.
I am hoping to see a full prepiad lease with storage next year. I want that extra 10% from domestic content.
I watched the entire video 60-70% of it is just why optimizer & the reason that it’s a single point of failure is ridiculous. I see it has a benefit that’s on system thus improving efficiency. Please share facts - why is it a closed system I simply didn’t understand; if it’s within your ecosystem I see it has a benefit rather than- not worth viewing this video
So The Powerwall 3 is a step backwards? Your Anti-Tesla feelings are showing, as usual. Maybe you're just mad that Tesla's solutions are cheaper than yours? One of the first rules we were taught in college was KISS - Keep It Simple, Stupid! MicroInverters and Optimizers add an extra layer of complexity that's often not needed when multiple strings are used. And judging by comments by other, less jaded installers, the Powerwall 3 looks to be just what has been needed in many installations.
Don't take it personal buddy.
I sell Hoymiles Microinverters, Hybrid inverters, and LFP Batteries, and the systems I design are much lower cost than Tesla. If I could compete with Tesla, they would not be able to match my systems.
PowerWall 3 is a game changer though. Super easy install, and especially where jurisdictions allow the new meter collar. Would be nice to see Joe do a cost comparison of a PowerWall 3 system versus a microinverter setup - for equivalent power output and backup capacity.
You're dreaming
Thats not true, new software upgrade and montoring solar in gateway 2 allows for pw3 to be ac copled with any system, just like pw2.
How much losses?
why would someone buy microinverters when solar panels have bypass diodes ?
Really? Would you not want to be able to cook if you've got an induction cooktop just because you're in an emergency situation? Also, still have to go to work then that means charging an ev if not got an ice vehicle
Same horrible service with starlink
So you're saying my system (31 Q-Cell panels feeding 31 Enphase IQ8A Inverters and IQ Combiner 4C) can't be mated to Tesla Power Wall 3's?
PW3 supports AC coupling
It can now be coupled with AC.
Musk is too elite for me, I refuse to buy any of his products…I would only have an off-grid
type system, no feedback whatsoever…
Dude, there's just one of you talking. Lose the second camera angle.
Is your video biased or not, I leave the question open but you miss some points. You can hook up other panels to the system, that info is wrong. Tesla is all about transitioning to sustainable energy so NO they will not let you hook up a gasgusler that pollutes and causes cancer. Next, Tesla made this PW to make instalation as easy as possible, the best process is no process, the best part is no part. This to bring installation cost down. If you buy a tesla product, you know that you get the best product for your money. The UI is usually the best around and gets new features. PW3 has been designed according to feedback from installers. The specs of this PW are amazing. I think you video is to negative, so leaning to the bias site. What people need are quality products for the cheapest price and tesla delivers on that. Having a system with all the features you mentioned and braking the bank is no good for anyone. Except installers and vendors probably 💰💰.
Also why can’t we omit this inverters period and create solar panels that produce AC vs DC directly from the panels themselves?
These do exist. Qcells produces an AC smart module with micro-inverters built into the solar panels
@@SolarSurge but if it produces AC why do you then need an inverter at all? This was both my question and my point - to bypass the need for an inverter at all and one less point of failure in the chain - I.e., the best part is no part. 😉
I want solar DC to DC direct charging to vehicles with no conversion loss.
@@alfs3 Solar cells themselves provide DC (direct current) not AC (alternating current). Differing voltage level and types makes conversion required. Can get a solar panel with a built-in (or strapped on) micro-inverter in the smart module form like Joe mentions.
Quantum physics - solar panels convert photons to DC electricity - just the way it is. If you want AC - and we do - somewhere that DC has to be inverted to AC. It can happen basically anywhere along the entire process, but it costs $$ maximizes at around 90% efficient and the rest of the electricity gets converted to heat. Heat is the enemy of reliable electronics so you just have to pick more inverters closer to the panels (or even inside or few inverters further from the panels, and then wire the system as chosen. Electric wires cost $$ as well
LOL you stirred up the Tesla wackos.
No generator backup is beyond stupid!
They don't tie into a gas generator, but do things others can't like tie into the vehicle battery for huge backup time. Cybertruck only for now, but expect this to extend to other vehicles going forward.
Well, given the lack of specs, performance, & specifics, this video makes it sound like it's all more of an installer problem and not a home owner problem. Was quoted PW2 + inverters last year, then revised this year with PW3. It's almost a -$6k difference. True on single point of failure, but such is the case anyway with SolarEdge (+ their terrible QA). Besides, inverters are basically a scam for most use cases, but also it means getting around em requires you to be a little more tech savvy : ua-cam.com/video/E9NVLB_OYSU/v-deo.html [Oh, and 1 more very critical thing about Tesla. Unlike all the platforms you do promote, none of em give a shit about markets outside America & Australia].
Lots of bad information in this video. You’re hurting your credibility Joe.
MLPE vs String inverter is not a new debate. The ultimate measure is $/Wh of production. The benefits of MLPE are quite overstated, and do not justify the additional cost for most installs. Only the heavily shaded or complex roofs will actually see a lower $/Wh.
If you disagree (or are in the minority that will be better off with MLPE) PW3 is not closed system. You can AC couple exactly like PW2, but you’re paying for additional inverters that are usually not not needed.
Intelligent Load control - SPANs #1 battery is Powerwall . Some loads maybe but the oven is a horrible example - I prefer my intelligence to be in my brain. Power is out? Don’t turn on the oven. Unless you’re hungry. Want longer duration of backup? Spend the $5k you saved on a smart panel and MPu on a second battery.
Generator support - that’s fair.
You also conflate Tesla as the installer and OEM which is very misleading.
I think you mean LCOE vs. $/Wh. Once you factor in all the cashflow influences MLPE results in the best ROI and NPV for the asset. Financers and PPA providers have all switched to MLPE for this reason. This is why MLPE make up 80% of the US residential market share today. Don't get me wrong old solar technology like string inverters works just fine, they just don't offer the same ROI as the new tech.
Simple solution; don't buy powerwall 3.
I think Elon likes the walled garden business model.
In general Tesla and customer service are not best of friends