You hit the nail on the head for me when you mentioned battery chemistry. Like you, getting LFP for my panels is hugely important from safety and longevity/ value for money perspective. In addition, I would like to have the flexibility of not discharging to grid automatically.
Yeah, being able to control your setup in the way that you'd like is key! It's good to see more and more manufacturers building in that capability (through mobile apps, software APIs and the like).
@@GaryDoesSolar Tesla is playing catchup. Ecoflow Delta Pro Ultra DESTROYS Tesla and is available TODAY with all the features you mentioned and MUCH MORE, at a FRACTION OF THE COST of the Tesla Powerwall 3.
Many thanks once again Gary, always gaining extra knowledge from your videos 😊 now I need a Givenergy All-in-one2 to come out with Tesla powerwall3 specs before my system is able to be installed!
You're most welcome, and I can imagine the engineering team at GivEnergy is working hard on that now! Will be interesting to see what they come up with! :-)
Agreed. I was surprised the Allinone doesn't have a hybrid/solar inverter. Given their links with Octopus a battery import/export I.e. virtual power plants makes sense for the masses. Most people just want a simple one box solution so it's great Tesla is showing how it should be done
No worries. I was just checking the videos I missed from your channel, in the last months. I was busy studying. Thank you again, Gary. I will keep up. Your channel is underrated and sure deserves more views and subs.@@GaryDoesSolar
@@youxkio Cheers. And yeah, it's growing slowly... It's hard to get traction on UA-cam but I'm going to keep producing videos, and hopefully one day, it'll get broader exposure... 🙂
Don't give up. Keep creating. More solar-related topics include solar cell (junction) composites, new scientific discoveries, and testing. Corporations that work on the different processes of installation, maintenance, and production of solar panels [LinkedIN]. Euro vs Chinese panels [or others]. Development of solar deployment in other countries and their latest results on mitigating energy governmental budget and state savings/inflation. Many other subtopics are related to solar transition. All in your free time of course. Happy days. @@GaryDoesSolar
One absolutely necessary feature for me of the next generation of home battery storage is that it can make use of and integrate people’s current battery storage no matter what the make. Most who have battery storage have paid a lot of money to buy it and have it installed. It is very short sighted for any battery producer not to make it possible to use what households already have. It would not be very environmentally friendly to throw away 4 perfectly good batteries, although I would love to get a Tesla Powerwall 3.
That's a really good point, Ian. There's no standardisation yet. I am heavily involved in this with my day job in the mobile industry, and I can totally endorse the view that standardisation opens up human progress a lot more than innovation alone.... Let's see what happens over time :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar In my experience it will be a 3rd party who invent some kind of ‘integration box/system’. That will then force the big companies to follow suit. (a bit like the Tesla car chargers initially being exclusive to Tesla cars). I hope the innovator makes their money before the big boys step in 😉
@@GaryDoesSolar The other innovation I am waiting for is a reliable, affordable domestic wind generator. Living in Wales we have wind more often than sun. I realise it would never produce as much power as my solar but it would supplement.
From a control system point of view there's an incompatibility of having two independent controllers trying to set the grid drain to zero. Even running a Zappi or Eddi load for example with an independent solar hybrid inverter plus battery has issues with deciding when there's a surplus to supply the load and NOT drain the battery which will be independently trying to supply it when the solar surplus drops. You have to employ techniques like setting an export threshold before loading etc. Having two inverters with batteries acting independently, both capable of charging and discharging could lead to some interesting bistable latching effects with one supplying or draining the other. I know Huawei can use IEEE comms to enable cascading hybrid inverters where one is set to master and the other slave. If it's just the battery capacity to be added the battery management can cascade battery stacks but that's under the one manufacturer. If you had an existing AC coupled battery and wanted to add an additional hybrid inverter and battery etc that couldn't talk to each other it may be possible to set an export threshold on one or slow its response time so the other takes the lead possibly, although it's a compromise and certain load patterns may still cause issues.
Agreed. The Powerwall 3 is the best battery out there. For most homes, you can backup the entire home without the need for load management. The integration of a power control system is also huge and solves a problem going back to the original gateway.
Another first rate video, I'm in the planning stages of a solar/storage project and consider your content essential viewing! I've had an ASHP system for coming up to 5 years in my 1980's built house and would be happy to share my data/experience 👍
Thank you @GaryDoesSolar for the great videos. Spoke to an electrician today about an AIO quote. During our discussion about the PW3, he confirmed that it uses LFP chemistry. He also showed me a screenshot he took from the technical plate taken during the presentation day in Birmingham.
I've been looking at options for home. We typically use 11-13Kwh a day, excluding EV charging (11kwh typical) so a single Power Wall or GE AIO would work. But if I did go for it'd want to replace my gas boiler and I've estimated we'd need up to 25kwh on a cold winter day. It's not realistic finalcially to add 2 more units, but 1 more certainly. I need to keep an eye on GE for when they have stacking available. Another super useful video! Thanks!
Cheers, and I guess as we electrify more and more in the home, we're all going to need greater battery capacity - I'm just happy to see that battery technology is getting better and better all the time to support that (especially with the pricing!) Thanks for the kind words about the video! :-)
I've had the Sungrow GSR-SBR 12.8 KWh battery connected to a 10kW solar system for a year now and it works perfectly. It's usually charged by 10am and gives us all the power we need after sunset without drawing from the grid. Running the large aircon at night for more than an hour depletes it though.
Sounds like a good setup. I think this is going to be a problem for many people though - having a home battery large enough to run AC or a heat pump for a long period of time during the day/night.
Yes. On dome cold days my ground source heat pump uses up to 50kwh running from 5am to 6pm. You would need a huge battery to store enough cheap rate overnight electricity to run the heat pump during the day. On the other hand many EVs now have 80kwh batteries so it is possible, we just need a chemistry that does n ot degrade over decades of operation.@@GaryDoesSolar
We have had a Tesla powerwall 2 battery for 3 years now. Even though we are still grid tied it keeps us virtually offgrid. It can run the whole house easily and cuts in straight away if the grid goes down. It is just like the whole house is on a UPS. It is still at full capacity and hasnt degraded at all accorrding to the app Netzero. We had solar installed for one year before we got the battery waiting for the price to go down but it didn't $16,500 NZD installed is a big amount but we have never regretted it since we made that jump to a powerwall 2. We have 22 panels ( 6.5kw) feeding it and they handle it np. The TOU (time of use) config built into it you can adjust yourself to the peak and offpeak power times is great! It is one purchase we have never regretted !!
Thanks for sharing this Steve! Sounds like you're having a great experience with the Powerwall. Will be very helpful to others looking at Tesla products! :-)
Excellent video, here in the US we can go with Enphase Micro Inverters like IQ8 series that will run and produce power for your home from solar panels during the day and you can run a smaller battery if you want to balance load etc. The Tesla Powerwall 3 Is great but if you have an EV your 60 to 80 kWh battery sitting outside is a wasted very large capacity LFP storage solution. We need to quickly see more availability and implementation of that resource as we electrify everything. Much better utilization of you capital I believe.
Thank you. Your videos are so informative. I now have 2 powerwall2, ashp, 3kw solar,Tesla model3 coming Saturday.. . All are great investments.. Keep up the good work👍
Cheers Colin - wow, you're really going for it! Well ahead of me - I'm only just thinking about what kind of heat pump to get. I can't quite afford an EV yet, but hopefully later this year. Good luck with the Model 3 and all the best! :-)
We have a Samsung ashp..house is a new build. No app to control which is a shame... The filters block periodically... If I had a choice I would have had a Valliant... Good luck..
I liked your take on the a Tesla PW3. I’m always keen on one more consideration and that’s PRICE. 😉. You showed a picture of the blue prismatic cells that you suspected were being used. I like these because of price. I gather the PW3 is costing GBP6000 plus installation etc. have spent about the same on 48 prismatic cells and an 11.2 Kw inverter from China. This DIY setup lets me run off grid all the time - in Australia where we do get some weeks with clouds and poor sunlight. I know most people will not want to run off grid, but it lets you see the huge margins that must be paid to buy ready made systems.
Hi Sandy, yeah the cells were the first images I came across in fact (just to show the shape). I really like your setup - and it sounds like it's working really well for you! :-)
Hi Sandy. I'm hoping to put together a DIY solar set-up (ideally to store thermally until the winter, but that's another story.) You recommend any good sources of information on getting started? Sites, channels, forums? Also, you know anything about using EV batteries for home storage? I can get a 45 kWh, almost brand-new EV battery, for about 5K, which blows any other source I can see out of the water. Going on a bit. Be really grateful for any advice, links. Thanks. Michael.
I regularly watch your channel. It is clearly one of the most useful home-solar YT channels! I live in Reno, NV. I am seriously interested in an Octopus-like service provider. Please consider doing research and a video on such service options in the US. Thanks.
Thanks - great to hear feedback like this :-) I'd love to see if energy providers across the world follow in Octopus Energy's footsteps... Octopus Energy actually licence out their 'Kraken' platform to other energy providers - so they can quickly offer smart tariffs... Might come quicker than you think!
I currently have a Tesla Powerwall 2 and love the features, being able to use solar to charge if a powercut is ongoing. Like you I really want a 2nd but currently looking at the DNO and believe I will need 3 phase as i also have 8 kWh solar and zappi.
@@GaryDoesSolar yes, it’s a complete Tesla system. It’s only 16 panels but it’s enough for my wife and I. Not connected to the grid yet, so I can’t send my excess back, but that should be a month away.
@@paperklip3 it actually fell from when I started the process in late 2022. I paid 30k for more panels than the original plan. After rebates it should run about 16k.
Thanks for a great video. I am in the US and considering a Powerwall. I have a proposal from the company. One frustrating thing about the proposal is that they have positioned it on the outside of the house, when I wanted it in my cellar, as shown in many of their promotional materials. When I asked why they couldn’t put it in the cellar, they said that they could if I was willing to spend an extra $8,000 for them to build a fireproof room. None of the pictures include this little item, but they said that the US electrical code requires it! Now I have to decide whether I want them in a less ideal location or spend big bucks. It almost seems like an intentional omission!
When I got my PW 2s it led to a huge proliferation of electrical panels on the side of my house even though I had them in the garage. The PW3 will reduce the amount of extra panels as you can see in the video. So maybe just put the oowerwalls by the meter and call it even.
I ordered my second Powerwall 2 about a month ago, so the title certainly grabbed my attention! I've had the PW2 for 3½ years. I am whatever you call the opposite of a Tesla fanboi, and wouldn't drive one of their latter-day Mondeos for a big clock. However I had to accept that, in 2020, the PW2 was head and shoulders above the competition for my requirements & priorities, which closely match the ones you outline in this vid. Performance has been flawless - looking outside and realising that all the neighbours had a powercut was childishly thrilling - and the app is a masterclass in how these things should be done. I guess I'm left wondering whether to hang on for the PW3 to become available, or pounce on the PW2 the minute the DNO authorises the connection. Probably the latter… Thanks for a great vid.
Cheers Mark. Yeah, Elon Musk is not everyone's cup of tea, but his companies do design great products that the rest of the market follow closely. The Powerwall 2 is not only iconic, but it's supremely robust. I've heard from many installers that it's "install and forget" - for me, that's one of the greatest statements you could ever make about an energy management solution :-) I don't think you can go wrong continuing with the PW2 - especially as the pricing is looking really good in Europe at the moment!
I have a Powerwall 2. Contacted Tesla about getting a Powerwall 3 but was told the two are not compatible (I suppose because the 3 has a built in inverter). They offered me a PW2. I asked if the price of the PW2 was lower and they said it was the same. Don't know if I would pay the same money for the inferior product. The advantages of PW3 are way more than the built in inverter which I don't need. Hopefully, they will come up with a policy that helps people in our boat like trading in a PW2 for a PW3 or selling the PW2 at the discount it needs compared to the PW3 or figuring out a way to make them compatible.
@@markiliffwhat makes you not want to buy one of the most affordable, low maintenance, fastest acceleration, safest vehicles? Just because Elon hurts your feelings? A good product is a good product regardless of who is behind it, my guess is that you are brainwashed by mainstream media as they only spout negativity towards Tesla and Elon. Best not to listen to them.
I have 3x Powerwall 2’s stacked as a full house backup. They are incredible and we don’t even realize when we have a power outage unless I check the Tesla notifications on my phone. System was sized with solar to allow for multi-day outages in Texas summers and goodness it was expensive but I swear by it now. Best zillion $$ ever spent 😂
Many thanks Gary - your videos are so well set out and informative. Apologies if i missed it, but i assume that the powerwall is an ac coupled system and so would it be possible to retrofit to a solar system with a DC-coupled battery when extra storage needed (e.g., on addition of a heat pump) without the batteries interfering with each other? Or do you have to replace the DC coupled batteries if upgrading with such a battery? Thanks
Thanks for your kind words, Joe. Yeah, whilst it’s possible to add an AC coupled battery to any existing solar system, if that system already has a battery, then there is likely to be interference between the two batteries. For example, the existing battery of the system draining into the newly added battery. This can sometimes be prevented if all of the equipment is manufactured by the same company, but in the case of GivEnergy (my own setup), I note that this is not the case (which is a shame).
I have a 22kWh Sonnen Batterie with a SonnenProtect. One important feature of that German battery is the 10,000 cycles warranty. Currently I am using it at average 1 cycle per day, when the electricity price spread in a day is larger, I use 2 cycles per day, as I make a bit of extra money with the system. The Protect function is also important for me, because in times of crisis and a grid disruption, it allows me to keep on using the system for about 7 to 8 months per year.
Thank you Gary. I would suggest that THE most important feature for the mass market would be the ability to "set and forget". The thing stopping me from implementing a system is the sheer complexity of management involved. My partner is a technophobe and would just expect it to work with no input from themselves. I've been monitoring the Givenergy battery owners forum on FB and it feels that you need to be very hands on just to keep the system ticking over. That's fine for me but when I die my partner would be badly exposed.
I totally agree, and I'm hoping I managed to get that point across in the video - in the early days, it's fine to take an interest in how things work, but actually, where we want to get to is an installation simply reporting if there is anything going wrong with it, and keeping quiet the rest of the time...
Thank you for your efforts in getting to that point. I just saw the video as suggesting that capacity was the most important factor. I'm not sure if any order was intended in the features mentioned. Anyway, when it just becomes a once a year system check, and the system delivering everything required at the cheapest rates - then we'll be there.
I have had a Tesla power wall system including solar input and have left it to get on with it. After initial setup It has managed to work out when to charge and how much as well as handling export when there is excess solar. The only help it needs at the moment is to tell it what the price charged and paid by my supplier is when it changes. It even manages the weather. The only thing it doesn't know is when I do something completely different with energy usage. (its no good with variable pricing) Don't forget that many forums are written by enthusiasts and fiddlers who like to play just like car forums where people mess with their cars (I am one of both at heart) Many people will be happy with the default settings. Just because you can push buttons doesn't mean you have to.
I have a PW2 and you are right it is hands on during an extended outage. The onboard solar inverter should however make it so I wouldn’t need to do anything at all. All of my fiddling is usually to avoid getting into a black start situation with PW2, but since the PW3 can charge straight off solar without energizing the rest of the house in principle, it should be able to rescue itself. It’s definitely what I’d be looking at if I wanted a battery for a rental or an elderly parent.
Agreed with respect to LFP. I have a home made backup using LFP batteries and I will not have an NMC battery in my house. Tesla have arguably the best understanding of NMC, and mostly fabulous software but I still don’t want NMC. And of course an extra benefit is that LFP is also good for more cycles.
Agreed. Although it's heartening to hear that Tesla has shipped 600,000 Powerwalls to date, and I've not heard anything about fires etc. I'm with you though - I prefer LFP in the home over NMC.
Great video. One additional benefit of PW 3 is that it works seamlessly with Cybertruck (CT). CT can be used as a huge battery backup. Not sure when CT will come to UK but I am considering using a switch to use my CT as a battery backup during power outage, which is rare here in KS. Of course if you buy a foundation series CT this comes with the unit.
There’s more info on V2H on the CT page on Tesla website, this is one reason why as an installer we are recommending the Tesla Gen 3 charger as a starting point - plus Gen 3 is now also doing charge on solar - then add battery etc as you go. Gen 3 charger plus Gateway 2 will be able to offer V2H same as CT at a later date via other Tesla vehicles (later in 24/25) the inverter in cars is being changed to do bidirectional and so offer backup from the vehicle to a home that’s isolated from the grid. I suspect that V2G will also be possible when the standards for U.K. are set but that’s probably 18mon-2yrs away. PW3 will be available as an inverter or non inverter versions too so extending the capacity will be cheaper. Plus It’ll also be available as a non backup unit if I recall correctly the conversation with the Tesla team meaning you don’t have to pay for the backup gateway if you don’t want it, again saving probably £1k off installation
Our humble Nissan Leaf does too.. I know a guy who used to charge his ZOE at Pod Point at Tesco, drive home, cook his tea then dump the rest to Grid for cash then go back to Tesco for more.. 2 full Batteries a day sold - no wonder Tesco stopped free charging. The cheeky beggar was even doing it when it reduced to 15mins, jumping out every 15mins to restart the free charge timer. Go home and top up his pension!! And they want to get rid of CHADEMO!! So no need to line Elon's greasy pockets for bi direction charging and backup.
@@tristramsnowdon5256 doesn’t matter the CT inverter that allows those features will be incorporated into rest of vehicles in due course so likely within 1-2 years bidirectional will be available on all. This was disclosed on a video with Sandy Munro by either Lars Moravian or Drew Baglino can’t remember which one
Another great video, thanks Gary. I really like the idea of the integrated inverter (making this a true "All In One" - EPS management aside). One question I had though is how efficient the inverter will likely be for the average (say 6kwh) array in the UK, keeping in mind your recent video about oversizing. Is there a chance the inverter will be 'too' powerful/inefficient for the average array?
Hi Philip, cheers for the great feedback! Yeah, there are definitely pros and cons to having a built-in inverter (especially one that capable). But if battery prices continue to fall, maybe it becomes a non-issue to have an inverter more capable than it needs to be? I don't know...
I have a Growatt system with 5kW hybrid inverter and 2x 6.5kWh wall mounted batteries (11.7kWh usable). A single battery was marginal for my daily usage. The second battery allows for more peak rate export to Octopus Flux and powering aircon in the summer. The Growatt inverter is frustratingly capped at 3kW output from battery even though the pair of batteries are capable of 6kW. Powerwall 3 looks like an excellent option but I suspect it would cost several times more than what I have. As an engineer I like the modularity of my system and enjoy tweaking the settings to play with different import/export strategies. For the average non-technical user this would be a deal-breaker and the Tesla solution would be much more attractive.
I agree, Matt. And I'd like there to be more standardisation across manufacturers as well. I'm sure it'll come eventually. It's interesting times in the home solar and battery world! :-)
Another excellent, informative video - thanks Gary. I have a modular battery system which is plug and play and I was expecting to see the price of the battery modules drop from Feb 1st 2024 as the UK Government extended its energy saving materials scheme to include retro fit home batteries. However, the batteries for my system have remained the same - do you know why? Either the retailers are slow to extend the savings or perhaps I've misunderstood how that works.
So, the VAT element should disappear. There was always the danger that manufacturers simply held onto that themselves - this has happened in other markets (like sunscreen and baby products) - but I'm a firm believer in the free market, and it only takes another distributor to see the advantage for them, to pass on the VAT rebate... :-)
It will be interesting to see the differences from an installers point of view as our UK home electric infrastructure is quite different to the USA in a lot of ways. We fit Powerwall 2 a lot and it’s a great product, I doubt Powerwall 3 will be coming to the UK any time soon. I had a meeting with Tesla Energy last week and they are really pushing Powerwall 2 in the UK at the moment. Will be interesting to see what design changes they will need to make to the gateway/backup side before they can roll it out here…
Yeah, Tesla is certainly US-centric in their approach to the market (I can't blame them as it's a huge market) but I agree - it would be good to see what they're able to do with UK installations. Hopefully, they're looking at that!
Thanks. As it happens, I have a Patreon, where I talk about my own solar and battery setup and also my plans for the future, if that's of interest: www.patreon.com/GaryDoesSolar
As my panels have a complex shading issue (I took regular pictures of the roof) I went for micro-inverters (generally considered better than optimisers). This really took me down the route of an AC coupled system. I didn't bother with the EPS as it would have required some rearranging of circuits and having a split PME/TT system. I'd probably already discounted the Tesla Powerwall 2 on the grounds of cost. Also, at the time, availability of any system, including GivEnergy, was scarce. I also wanted 5kW and that discounted GivEnergy (AC, at least). I've got Solax and I'm fairly happy with that and have good control with Home Assistant. The one box approach of Tesla is obviously good and is being copied by others.
Thanks for sharing your experiences - this will be really helpful to others! Overall, I still prefer AC Coupled over DC Coupled as it's more akin to a modular approach. And it's great that you've been able to task Home Assistant to control/report everything.
I think if the PW3 had LFP chemistry, it would be promoted in the marketing. My bet is that the chemistry hasn’t changed. It also has more hardware on board which adds to the weight.
Yeah, this is what I'm thinking too. I'm hoping that someone will be able to confirm one way or the other soon... And if it's NMC, it's actually a great chance for Tesla competitors to take advantage.... (hard to take on Tesla at anything these days!)
@@pauld3327I disagree. It’s well known that recent standard range models have LFP chemistry. The advice regrading charging strategy is also different with these models, i.e. it’s OK to charge to 100%.
The “best” features depend on how your local utility works really. If you pay more at certain times of day, the battery can add value by charging at low periods and releasing energy at high. In my area, utilities are starting to charge more for peak power (kW) .. so peak shaving is where I would benefit the most.
I agree, and hopefully more and more energy providers will start offering such "time of use" tariffs to their customers, just like Octopus Energy does in the UK and other countries.
Fantastic vids; I was wondering about a couple of items that you might know about; when will PW3 be available for UK/IRL markets? And sense of pricing? And lastly…. Will it play well and integrate with previous/existing inverters and batteries…. Do you know?
Thank you for the kind feedback. I'm hearing mid/late 2024 for introduction to the UK, but no word on pricing. Apparently PW3 doesn't play with PW2 at all :-( but will integrate to any inverter.
Fantastic video. In future ones, if you can comment as well on the ability of the battery to charge discharge on its own and the assocuted app to monitor it, would be extremelly useful. Hoping the powerwall3 is available in Spain soon.
Thanks for the great feedback. Yes, I'll be picking up on that topic as time goes on. For the mass market, I think people would be happy for their setup to essentially manage itself, and simply reporting performance periodically.
Great video Gary. Very informative and you made it easy to follow. I currently have two solar panel systems on my roof. Two different solar companies. Kind of a pain but it is what it is. I’m looking to add a battery to my home. My question is do I have to choose between the two panel systems as to which one will connect to the battery or can they both somehow connect to the same battery?
Thanks for the kind feedback. Unfortunately, l'm not in a position to provide individual advice (not least because of potential liability issues, even if that advice is given free - such is the world today). You're best to speak to an installer for such advice, or post a comment onto a solar forum (e.g. this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466). Good luck!
Thanks Gary for this very informative video! Just wondering if you are familiar with ecoflwo powerocean? it seems like a close competitor to PW3 just by the looks of their specs- 5kwh from start, expandable to 45kwh, 10kw output, backup mode supported, and also LFP battery! The battery chemistry would be on top of my consideration, if I were about to instill this big chuck of battery in my house, I'd like them to be as safe as possible. Unfortunately there is not much info available about this brand...Will keep following your channel, keep up the good work!
You're very welcome - thanks for the great feedback! The video seems to be getting some traction and generating a lot of commentary - fab! Now, I'd always thought of EcoFlow as portable power units, but I just searched for the PowerOcean, and it looks to be very similar! I'll dig into the specs and prices a bit more... thanks for highlighting! :-)
Good to see the new battery options - that additional (3rd+) solar array thing would have helped me and is the bit I think is most exciting. The additional cost of the sophisticated battery over the lower discharge rate one seems unlikely to be justified for me had it been available. I just had the two 9.5kwh batteries installed as well, and I did think about that 3.6kw maximum discharge rate. I expect - but haven’t had enough time with them yet - to see quite short periods of time when the house draws more than the 3.6kw (peak load exceeding peak battery discharge rate) and isn’t able to rely on its solar or really cheap rate grid power to make up the difference. It will be interesting to see if dipping into the grid adds up ( kWh cost * how long (and by how much) the house load exceeded the battery discharge rate). If it’s just the toaster and the kettle I might get a slower kettle (sneaky!) And I see in other households people do seem happy to change their habits a bit to smooth demand out somewhat (especially if they’re paying the bills!) Will be particularly interesting when the heatpump arrives. I imagine it might crop up most in the darkest longest winter evenings and early mornings outside of the low rate. Of course the answer about whether it will have been a ‘mistake’ to go for the lower discharge option will also depend on what the price was of the two competing batteries at decision date. Those Tesla batteries seem ruinously expensive! But it’s all such fun!
Haha - agreed, it is certainly fun! One option might be to add a GivEnergy 3kW inverter, so that each of your 9.5kWh batteries is on its own inverter. I don't know if that's an allowed option though, but if it.was, that would give you 6.6kW :-)
I believe the powerwall 3 has separate outputs for loads that are battery backed during a power cut and normal on-grid loads, so you can ensure only critical circuits stay up in the event of a power outage.
I much prefer the idea of separate items to make up an ESS. This not only allows picking & mixing the best items between manufacturers but also for me, having a single unit that charges, inverts and is a battery means if any one of the those components go down the whole unit fails. I do accept however that most people cannot do the work themselves so it's a slightly mute point if your not a handyman.
Cheers for the great feedback. I'm not a big fan of the SolarEdge battery - it's NMC (and I even hear it's got a built-in fire extinguisher???). It's also expensive and you don't have a lot of programming control over it. Happy to be corrected by anyone - maybe the spec has improved since it was first launched...
THE drawback of the Tesla Power Wall is that it cannot be obtained without solar. I frankly DO NOT WANT roof-mounted solar, I want a whole-home battery that steps in during the fairly rare electrical outages in my area.
Is that still the case? I know they were doing that for a while, but I know in the UK, it's possible to buy one without solar. Should be the same in other countries...
It has been a while since I checked. When last I did, one could not buy separate from solar. Will have to recheck...it may be time to sign the check...
I have an appointment with Tesla to come by my San Francisco house to add the PW3 to my Enphase/LG panels I had for 5 years. It wasn't before as thre was a PW shortage. Awesome I pay under $10/month for my electric bill! Want to get rid of my $40/month gas bill to go 100% electric!
Very interesting stuff and thanks for sharing your reseach. I guess if you also own an electric car the benefits of the power wall are even greater. Thinking about that though, if you own a modern electric car with car to home capabilities, would that not make having a power wall unnecassary?
Thanks for your kind words :-) Now, I'm getting asked this a lot, and I'll be covering this in a future video. As an EV will not be at the property a 100% of the time, there is still very much the case for having a home battery, and perhaps the size of that home battery could be chosen according to the percentage of the time the EV will be away...
Hi Gary Another interesting video. I am still on the fence over solar/battery installation but my current thinking is leaning towards starting with a battery only setup using Octopus Agile tariff so I can take advantage of the very effective averaging of unit cost. I will be aiming for an average unit cost of 12-14p per kWh. As space in the house is limited and we have no convenient outbuildings I am leaning towards using 4-5 small modular Growatt (3.3kWh) batteries stacked in the loft as they are easy to lift up through the fairly small hatch. The inverter would go in the loft as well. The installation will be above the metercandceasilyvaccessible via existing cupboards more or less in direct line between the two. We average about 10.5 kWh per day at the moment and heat with a gas boiler which I have no plans to replace. I designed the CH system myself so the radiators are generously sized and it heats the house well at a flow temperature of 58C. I doubt a HP would save any money and would probably cost the same or more to run on present COP and servicing costs. On past experience I would expect the boiler to last at least another 10 years. Maybe if a 'direct HP' ( ie one that simply replaced the boiler without requiring a large intermediate c hot water cylinder) became available at a competitive cost it might be attractive. Likely to be a few years before that happens. I might add solar panels later as the extra installation costs of splitting the job will be quite small as most of this will be for the panels, linking cables, scaffolding etc. The new VAT free cost for the battery makes the split more attractive. Of course it might be better to wait for new battery technology but I think this could be another 4-5 years so opportunity cost will be higher. Mike
Hi Mike - thanks, as always, for your excellent insight and thinking. It's not easy eh? to determine the best course of action! So many factors at play... I'm always interested to hear how you intend to progress though :-)
A good introduction to some of the key features of any Home Battery system. If you are right (you have been in the past), then these will indeed form the main focus for Mass adopters. The Enphase Battery 5P already provides many of the features mentioned, it has 100% useable 5kWH capacity with peak output power of 7.68 kW for 3 seconds and 6.14 kW for 10 seconds, Rated (continuous) output apparent power 3.2 kVA. These are "stackable" to increase the power output, so you could buy 2 of these for less than the Powerwall3 and they come with an industry leading 15year warranty. Finally they are definitely lithium iron phosphate (LFP) chemistry. My personal opinion would be to go with Enphase as I would be installing Panels that are designed to work with Enphase Microinverters as a fully integrated controlled system.
FYI the Prismatic batteries are typically ~300Ah and store about 1 KWh. so 48 cells can deliver about 48KWh vs 13.6KWh for a Tesla 2 or 3. (I have 3 banks each are 16 Cells in series.)
We have a small 6kW ASHP. GE Hybrid + 2X9.5’s is just about enough for us and has worked OK (Not perfect) over winter. Our manual EPS has a 20A limit (i.e. Not much!) Essentially runs everything except the ASHP… So it’s not full backup. I like my GE set-up, it does what it needs to do, but would I go TESLA if I started again. Possibly if it was mounted outside… GE/Octopus Energy offers automation. Will Tesla offer better rates - like the EV’s - for Tesla Powerwall owners? Thank you for a great presentation.
Very informative as always Gary. Do you know whether the Powerwall 3 would be able to add to an existing setup of Powerwall 2s? I was thinking about adding 2 more 2s to my existing 2 to give me 4 as the price is quite good right now, and the stock will go quite soon I imagine, but would it be an advantage do you think to add 2 x 3s?
I have a 5kWh battery (4 usable) that can only provide 3kW. I am happy with this as I only get rare peaks that it cannot supply all the energy. I'd say 95% of my day energy is provided by the battery (less in the winter) and I think this is very acceptable. I'll have to rethink this when I get a heat pump.
Thank you Garry. Do know if PW3 can be connected to a PW2? I have recently installed a PW2, I feel I will need a 2nd battery, but am feeling insecure in case PW2 is discontinued and PW3 is not compatible. Thank you.
You're most welcome! Now, what I heard so far is the PW3 is not compatible with the PW2 unfortunately :-( That could well change though... let's see what Tesla do...
Shame PW3 was not available before I went to a GE AIO. But over all happy(ish) with the GE 3 box (!) solution in operation and they have new battery management solutions to come out soon so you can add more to it. Unless we go to electric heating though in some form we are ok with the AIO size, just, on a non solar day. There does seem to be quite a lot of lossage though with all the conversions AC/DC it is doing. At least you can just get another inverter and the new box from GE and double your output. When it is available.
Hi Ian, I wouldn't worry - I'm hearing great things about the AIO. Also, the PW3 is not expected to be available in the UK until much later this year. It's great to see GivEnergy adopting a modular approach to their products, and this is really what the market is looking to see, IMHO.
Ac start-up matters, but a dryer can stay on a very high consumption for a long time, because of its heater. Start-up issues usually occur when an inductive load is turned on.
@@GaryDoesSolar sorry for the confusion Gary. I am a fan and made a mistake when trying to buy you a coffee. Found I had signed up to run a channel, not my intention. Tesler power wall, use the tesler car battery instead? Kia and Nissan offer V2 H. Tesler Southampton didn’t know what I was talking about either. I had hoped that my comment about Octopus claimed to have this provision already would ring a bell. I already have solar and battery in the home. Am buying an EV only if it can offer facility to bolster what is already in existence with octopus Fit. Barney
@@user-ww1ip3ch7l Ah ok, no problem Barney - I understand where you're coming from now. I thought you were against EV batteries being used in the home, but you were actually making the point that it's a great thing and that more EV companies should be championing V2H/V2G. I completely agree, and will be looking into all of this in a video shortly. Let's see what happens over the next year or so... it's an exciting time! 🙂
Hi there, you said you had give energy battery installed into your house, which is what I was looking at, do you think the Tesla battery is a better option to your setup?
Yes I have GivEnergy in my house and it's performed extremely well since installation (just over a year ago). GivEnergy batteries are also very affordable compared to other manufacturers - especially Tesla, which is one of the most expensive brands. If money wasn't an issue, I'd go for Tesla I reckon, but I wouldn't install it inside the house if it's NMC chemistry. GivEnergy batteries are all LFP.
I have a 10kw solar system with 10.5kw battery, south/east/west facing (UK). Over winter, October to March we struggle to fill the battery capacity with solar but fill it up at cheap rates at night which will get most through to the next nightly slot. We are heavy electric users over winter mainly due to heat pump providing heat and water but also the sewage pump and MVHR system constantly running, plus the oven and hobs are also electric. I have a V2L car I plug into our hybrid system and that supplements the house battery, getting us through to the cheap rates on cloudy days when the house batteries aren't enough. This is the best set-up IMO. You don't need more than 10kw house battery. Better investing in a hybrid inverter with off grid capacity and a V2L car so you can access that huge battery capacity sitting on the drive. From April to September especially on sunny days the house batteries fill up quickly and you don't need more capacity than 10kw. Selling back to the grid gives minimum returns currently. With a hybrid off/on grid system you can also avoid power cut issues which affects standard solar inverters.
Hi Adam, thanks for sharing your experience. I agree, there is a lot of value in have a very large battery present for a fair percentage of the time, backed up by a (as you suggest) 10kWh battery :-)
New battery cells from CATL with lithium manganese iron phosphate (LMFP) chemistry are most likely to have been used. This new chemistry has the same density as NMC with magnesium in the mix. LMFP is cheaper than NMC but slightly more than LFP.
RE: EPS - it took me some lengthy research and queries with multiple installers to finally confirm that NOT ALL systems with EPS are capable of charging a battery from the solar panels when the grid supply is interrupted. So it is possible to spend a few £thousands and be out of electricity on a sunny day :p The setup I settled for uses an inverter from Growatt, 18 panels connected as two strings (E-W) and a single 2nd generation Powerwall. When the zombie apocalypse comes this should still run for as long as there is sunlight or battery reserves. :)
Agreed - and it just shows that meticulous research is still the key today. It's a fair assumption that people would make about solar topping up batteries during a power outage, but as you say, in many cases a wrong one.
In UK our electricity grid is very stable it's very rare we have power cuts. If needs be I can run extension lead from my inverter . For me not worth paying alot more for that feature
@@NunoLima1337 hi, what does that got to do with my eleckly going off? Still can run power if stuck untill battery goes flat and if it's between November to Feb I'm hardly producing any solar power.
This really depends on where you live. Here in northern Norway, with an EV, avg consumption in March is 98kwh per day with 10-15kw peak output required. In February avg consumption was 120kwh per day...
Garry, as always very interesting. I will be installing two Tesla Powerwalls in my home. Would you wait for the Tesla Powerwall 3 or go ahead with 2 Tesla Powerwall 2's as the combined out put is 10kW, or install a Powerwall 2 now and add a Powerwall 3 when they are available? I would love your thought please.
Thanks James. For me, because my garage (where the battery would go) is directly below my bedroom, I'd not go for any battery solution that was NMC. But if I was installing batteries on an outside wall, that would be fine. And it's worth knowing that Tesla has just reported that they've shipped 600,000 Powerwalls to date. And trust me, if they were all going on fire the whole world would know about it! So, maybe I'm being too risk-averse? In the UK, PW2 pricing is really good at the moment, so taking advantage of buying two units (increased power and capacity) makes a lot of sense. There's no mixing and matching possible with the PW3 though (which is a shame). All the best with what you decide - I don't think you can go wrong though...
The integration of the solar inverter certainly simplifies the hardware installation but will it cause issues with the maximum length of solar DC cables? Solar inverters are often installed in the attic so cable runs are short but batteries of this size are generally installed outside or in a garage which could be a distance away?
Pretty sure that the Powerwall 3 comes with three solar inverter inputs (rather than the mentioned six). Still better than most inverters though! :) Oh, and thanks, great video. :)
According to www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/tesla-powerwall-3-review this is the official Tesla Powerwall 3 Datasheet: static1.squarespace.com/static/655ca2b0f826bb7b2b4dfe90/t/65e3263840ddfe5f5e3c746c/1709385276736/Powerwall_3_Datasheet_NA-EN.pdf. It confirms 6 MPPTs.
Hi Clark, thanks for your very kind words! Here's the data I was working from for the video: digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Powerwall_3_Datasheet_Rev-1_03312023.pdf This is where I got the '6' from.
Very informative and professional video as always Gary. Thanks. A few years ago I did consider getting a PW2 but inventory was thin on the ground and they were pretty expensive. So I went another route and installed a modular system based on Victron & Pylontech gear. I now have 14.4kWh of Pylontech US5000 LFP batteries and a 5kVA Multiplus-II inverter with a pair of 250/60 MPPT solar charge controllers fed by a 6.8kWp Trina array. I started with 9.6kWh of battery storage initially then added a third 4.8kWh module along with the solar PV setup in June last year. It has performed exceptionally well even over the winter months so we’re very happy indeed. To be honest I’m glad that I didn’t go the Tesla route because, although I was never a big fan of Elon Musk previously, I find his recent antics even more unacceptable and wouldn’t want to put any money in his pockets. Sorry to bring politics and personalities into the equation but for me this would be a blocker. From a specifications point of view the PW3 seems very good, especially the likes of the 11.5kW power output. My own hybrid inverter can only manage 4.4kW and although this is fine for the vast majority of the day, our range cooker can certainly pull more power than the inverter can provide at times. But I could simply install a larger inverter, and Victron produce 8kW, 10kW and 15kW versions of the Multiplus-II now so I might do that. And that’s why I actually prefer the modular solution I have built, because I can tailor the individual components to suit my needs. I know this probably isn’t what the mass market is looking for, and some people actually want to see the Tesla logo on their products. But for me, I don’t want to get locked in to anyone’s ecosystem and I want to be able to expand my system over time with interoperable products. Thanks again.
Hi Craig, I hear what you're saying. I do like Elon Musk, but lately, he's causing a lot of unnecessary trouble - and I'm not surprised this is causing people to shun him! I agree, a modular approach is the way to go - that allows those with limited budgets to at least get started, building over time. And of course, older kit can be upgraded over time too. Let's hope that we see standards coming into the home energy space soon!
@@GaryDoesSolar yeah fair enough, I'm a big fan of the late Steve Jobs but he too was no angel at times and many people never warmed to him either. For me the big difference between those two is that Steve focussed most of his attention and energy on making better products, didn't let himself get dragged into politics, and kept his ego mostly in check. Tesla clearly have some very good engineers and designers working hard behind the scenes and if you can put Musk to one side then more power (no pun intended) to you! 😅 One aspect that I don't think you covered in your video unless I'm mistaken is the ability to tinker and alter system behaviour where it doesn't quite meet a user's needs. For example, I've already developed a few Node-RED flows to take advantage of Octopus Saving Sessions and Intelligent Octopus Go on my Victron system. I am also about to develop a flow to ensure I keep some headroom in my DC coupled batteries when the sun is shining strongly so that I can absorb solar power at a higher power level than my inverter can export. Otherwise when my batteries are 100% full (today that was achieved by 10am) then during the peak solar time of day my oversized 6.8kWp array might be able to deliver say 5.5kW (even in February!) but I can only export 4.4kW of this to the grid. So, if I keep my batteries at, say, 95% by pre-emptively setting a forced export, then I can absorb the peaks in solar power while exporting at more of an "average" power level. Hopefully that makes sense. So, would I be correct in assuming that this sort of tinkering isn't possible with a Tesla PW3? Or is there a mechanism that can be used similar to Node-RED on the Victron gear?
@@craigchamberlain Yeah, it seems to be the case that those that are truly brilliant in their thinking come with less-than-savoury elements of their character. I guess the question is, does the latter offset the former? I don't know, but the whole world has certainly benefited from the former! Great that you're developing all the Node-RED stuff - I've not looked into that, so maybe something to get into before long! I'm mainly JS and PHP so far... As far as I know, Tesla products are totally closed on the API front currently - maybe that will change one day...
I have had my solar / Powerwall 2 installed about 3 years. Not sure if that makes me an early adopter or part of growing mass market. My view now is that I wish I had gone for two PW2s instead of one. Once you start switching more towards electricity and trying to make sure it as natural as possible then you realise that you need more and more storage. The household has two electric cars, a Mixergy tank and I tend to use battery power for the gardening. In winter 13.5 storage capacity is not enough. Output capacity is also important (one car draws 7.2) Ease of installation and weather protection are also important. I am not certain about the emergency supply also being linked to a static battery. I did have to have my Tesla PW2 replaced after two years because of a fault. So I am not sure putting all my eggs in one basket is the right option. So I have been looking at portable electric storage that can provide power during power cuts but also when on the move. I should also add that my car has vehicle to load so in theory access to a large battery. I don’t know enough to comment on NMC v LFT.
Thanks Gary and keep up the good work. I should have added that I use Octopus for off peak rates when needed. I also have invested in Ripple Energy’s wind and solar farms. My aim is to hopefully get rid of using gas without too much financial pain.
seems a fairly natural evolution of the pw2. I’m actually not a huge fan of the automated part - it seems to be harder to control if you want to do that. 11kw output is fantastic, and the combined unit should be much easier (cheaper?) to install - we’ll have to see. I’d suggest the additional weight might partly be covered by the embedded gateway?
Gary, I have just had solar & 9.5kw GivEnery battery installed, I’m so confused about which energy supplier & tariff is best. I don’t have an ev but do have an iboost. I’m likely to use more energy than sell back to grid. Any advice?? ps I’m with Shell energy & awaiting migration to Octopus who have bought Shell. Thanks again
Hi Peter, thanks for taking the time to comment. I thoroughly recommend you watch my tariff strategy series here. It will give you some good ideas. There are links to introductions to Octopus tariffs in the videos as well - good luck! ua-cam.com/video/fc5yWCQS4_Q/v-deo.html
My parents have a Huawei 10kwh battery and recently changed over to Octopus Go to charge it overnight, especially during the winter. That has saved them a lot of money. They have a gas hob and boiler, all else is electric (no EV yet!). So the battery can cover their daily use for 90p.
Yeah, I think the two can work together well (although the inverter in the PW3 would be redundant). Now, I'm hearing (but not confirmed yet) that there is a PW3 without the build-in inverter. To me, that's perfect for a microinverter solution....
@@GaryDoesSolar great intel as always Gary - I'm looking to get solar and battery ordered over the coming month, so might sit on my hands and wait for the TPW3 to come out!
Hi I agree Octopus are a great energy supplier but with one caveat they do not have a low night time energy tariff for someone wanting to have battery storage only, that is no Solar input or having a EV charger.
I have a battery and storage heaters as the main electricity grid consumers. The tariffs that used to be suitable have become EV owner only! Last year I believe the government forced the energy companies to change their Economy 7 tariffs so the daytime rate was lowered, but what they also did is raise the overnight rate by a similar amount. So for example 6p/kw raised 10p so that 46p daytime could be 36p. It’s a massive ~260% increase in night rate! I’m currently on Octopus Agile but would prefer Octopus Go for its predictable overnight rate. Are there any traditional cheap rate Economy 7 supplier available?
Another interesting feature that Tesla have just introduced is charge your Tesla car with excess solar. So you need a Tesla car, a PW2 and seems to work with any EV charger. The slider bar on the app gains a second sliding dot, first dot is charge from any source to that level and a 2nd dot is charge to that 2nd level with excess solar. The setup uses the current sensors in the PW2 to measure the exported current and then continuously adjusts the charging current demand from the car to minimise the exported energy.
I have 4kWp solar and a Powerwall 2. My criteria are capacity, output and resilience. That said I imagine for everyone the initial outlay would be top of the list but that's not important right now. Reason for purchase - maximising solar and minimising future electricity bills, along with blackout management as I'm in an area where this is still a thing. I use about 6 kW/day annual average broken down as 7-10 winter, 2-3 summer (i.e. practically full utilisation) so the 13.6kW capacity is ideal for me though I'd never turn down more. The biggest issue is that managing power requirement is a learning process - no more than one big load at once, please!. It has to be said that output at 3.6kW is not brilliant if you want to charge an EV (7kW) modestly quickly. Minor issue for now as I charge elsewhere at low cost. The Tesla app is a doddle to use and I haven't yet felt the need to go onto a smart meter where I will find greater savings and more utilisation. That's coming, I'm on Octopus already so shouldn't be difficult. (And thanks for your videos on the meter topic)
I'm looking into intelligent octopus flux for my 6 bed student property and want it to manage itself best as possible as I won't be living there. Currently it's only compatible with GivEnergy, but do you know what other manufacturers this tariff will be compatible with?
Hi Fred, you're right - at present, it's just GivEnergy. I know that Octopus' intention is to expand to other batteries, but I haven't heard anything since the launch. I am planning a video on it soon though, and hopefully, I'll have more information by then...
Excellent video, thanks. My 2 cents from a town in Massachusetts under HOA restrictions for solar roof placement and State Electrical code control for placement of Powerwall and other mfgs. installation locations, i.e. in the finished basement, garage, or outside. So, in some instances, we can't put the Powerwall/other mfgs in the basement, although the installers will try to talk you into this option and then the electrical Dept. or Fire Dept. says the location doesn't meet code. You're down to two choices after this and outside location, especially with the Powerwall 3 is the ideal solution, for many of the reasons you talk about in your video.
Thanks for the great feedback, and also for this extra insight. Yeah, it does sound like an outside installation is the way to go for the PW3 for many people then - it can handle being being outside easily, and if NMC chemistry, it's less of a safety issue...
I just had 2 PW3s and Solar 7.25 kWh consisting of 18 panels installed at my home, I have no experience with other systems but the Tesla system is totally seamless. The installers said that the batteries are LFP but they may also be guessing. I am hooked to the grid and the solar / battery is working but am waiting for the city to inspect and approve exporting to the grid which is scheduled for next Wednesday.The local utility provides for credit 1 to 1 for export and pays any surplus once a year. I hear the talk about how BEV cars are going to cause issues on the grid but IMHO the amount of people installing Solar/batteries should more than offset and extra loads
Hi James, thanks for sharing this. Of all the home battery manufacturers, Tesla seems to be the only one that provides a "fire and forget" product - which of course is a key requirement for the mass market.
Gary, I presently have a West South West facing 3.9kW array on the roof of a 2 bedroom bungalow in rural Central Scotland and run a Zappi and Eddi on it. I’m considering a home storage battery as well but wonder if it is worth adding a 2nd solar array on the other side of the roof that would be facing ENE? Worth the extra investment (I believe I can get a grant for a combined solar and home battery installation but not for just a home battery). The local council has been installing Powerwall 2 and 3 or 4 solar panels that face North West on the council houses in the area which is why I asked. Also I’m already on the Intelligent Octopus EV tariff
Hi Tim, what you're planning sounds good. I'd recommend you try out my free daily modelling utility, to see what the generation of the new array might be, here: garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/?fbclid=IwAR28jKE0mR7bG_E8N4RFSfCZCSKa3unYK71vq6F1-g204Iut-gwuimDa60w This is the free version, but there's more advanced paid-for version if you really want to get into the data. Ideally you'd be looking to have a roof pitch of 30 degrees or more to make the best of a ENE orientation I'd suggest.
By my calculations, the pw3 has one of the best cost-to-payoff of the batteries I've looked at. 8 years to payoff just the battery (assuming on-peak load and off-peak charging). However, it's the installation that kills the product. Installed it goes for 8 years to 16. However, with the incentives, it drops to 11 years. That puts it on par with the ecoflow delta pro.
I've been living with 2 Powerwalls for several years now (I think they are powerwall 2's). Anyway, 27kwh is enough to run our house off grid 24 hours no problem AS LONG AS the HVAC system isn't running. During the hottest and the coldest months when our home's HVAC runs a lot, the powerwalls only last a few hours once the sun goes down. We have a large home, around 6,000 sq/ft of living space, with 2 furnances, 2 A/C's, and several refrigerators/freezers. So, our usage is high. Overall, we love the Powerwalls and they have been an awesome upgrade to our home. I just wish I could afford 5 or 6 of them! It's all about battery prices for these, just like EVs
Thanks for sharing this, Jason - I think it will be useful to many people who are trying to understand what the experience will be like with a home battery - including a Tesla Powerwall setup. Yeah, pricing is always an issue, but pricing continues to drop over time, so such products will soon be more affordable to many :-)
I do wander if any Powerwall 2 owners will make the switch, Been considering buying a second Powerwall 2 but could possibly be worth waiting and seeing what values of 2nd hand pw2's are if people do switch.
Hi Lee, I'm seeing comments to the effect that if you already have a PW2, then adding another PW2 instead of switching to PW3 makes a lot of sense. With 2 x PW2, you have a 10kW output - close to the PW3... And PW2 prices have never been cheaper!
With heat mode, how cold can an operational battery continue to operate? Can it be used off grid with daily cycles? Does it charge 100% and how many such cycles? Thanks-
I have just put my planning permission in for our heat pump. I will need another battery. That will take me to 12.8 kWh. Ours are in our loft. So we have 4x 3.2 kWh batteries as they can be lifted into the loft. As a side note, I am trying to find a way to optimise the heat pump with Agile. Agile would still seem to be better than Cosy.
In the USA at least, if you get a Cybertruck and have a Powerwall and a Tesla charger, the Cybertruck can add effective additional battery capacity up to 11.5kw I think. If you don't have a Powerwall you need another item, a special Gateway (Powerwalls use a different Gateway) that will take a few seconds to 'switch' to battery from the truck if it is plugged in. We are just getting 3 Powerwall 2s installed, it was under contract before PW3 was available and it should be commissioned tomorrow!
I have a CT coming & hoping it will substitute for, or at least, supplement Powerwalls. However, bc my garage is so tight, the Pw must be mounted externally, on the car port side, which worries me about how easy battery theft would be. Thoughts?
You don't need a Cybertruck or Powerwall for that. I do this in the UK with a Sunsynk Hybrid inverter and a Hyundai Ioniq car. All you need is a hybrid inverter with off grid capcaity and a car with V2L (Hyundai, Kia, Leaf, VW camper, Genesis, Ford Truck...more coming)
You hit the nail on the head for me when you mentioned battery chemistry. Like you, getting LFP for my panels is hugely important from safety and longevity/ value for money perspective. In addition, I would like to have the flexibility of not discharging to grid automatically.
Yeah, being able to control your setup in the way that you'd like is key! It's good to see more and more manufacturers building in that capability (through mobile apps, software APIs and the like).
@@GaryDoesSolar Tesla is playing catchup. Ecoflow Delta Pro Ultra DESTROYS Tesla and is available TODAY with all the features you mentioned and MUCH MORE, at a FRACTION OF THE COST of the Tesla Powerwall 3.
Many thanks once again Gary, always gaining extra knowledge from your videos 😊 now I need a Givenergy All-in-one2 to come out with Tesla powerwall3 specs before my system is able to be installed!
You're most welcome, and I can imagine the engineering team at GivEnergy is working hard on that now! Will be interesting to see what they come up with! :-)
Agreed. I was surprised the Allinone doesn't have a hybrid/solar inverter. Given their links with Octopus a battery import/export I.e. virtual power plants makes sense for the masses. Most people just want a simple one box solution so it's great Tesla is showing how it should be done
Hello Gary. I am one of the first video's audience. Went concentrating on other stuff. Studies. Good to know you keep on going. I love your content.
Thank you! Sorry this video took a few weeks to get done. My day job got in the way (was on a business trip) 😀👍🏻
No worries. I was just checking the videos I missed from your channel, in the last months. I was busy studying. Thank you again, Gary. I will keep up.
Your channel is underrated and sure deserves more views and subs.@@GaryDoesSolar
@@youxkio Cheers. And yeah, it's growing slowly... It's hard to get traction on UA-cam but I'm going to keep producing videos, and hopefully one day, it'll get broader exposure... 🙂
Don't give up. Keep creating.
More solar-related topics include solar cell (junction) composites, new scientific discoveries, and testing.
Corporations that work on the different processes of installation, maintenance, and production of solar panels [LinkedIN].
Euro vs Chinese panels [or others].
Development of solar deployment in other countries and their latest results on mitigating energy governmental budget and state savings/inflation.
Many other subtopics are related to solar transition. All in your free time of course. Happy days.
@@GaryDoesSolar
Always a brilliant video with great information thank you Gary 🇬🇧
Cheers William - and sorry it took so long to publish. I was away on a business trip.
One absolutely necessary feature for me of the next generation of home battery storage is that it can make use of and integrate people’s current battery storage no matter what the make. Most who have battery storage have paid a lot of money to buy it and have it installed. It is very short sighted for any battery producer not to make it possible to use what households already have. It would not be very environmentally friendly to throw away 4 perfectly good batteries, although I would love to get a Tesla Powerwall 3.
That's a really good point, Ian. There's no standardisation yet. I am heavily involved in this with my day job in the mobile industry, and I can totally endorse the view that standardisation opens up human progress a lot more than innovation alone.... Let's see what happens over time :-)
@@GaryDoesSolar In my experience it will be a 3rd party who invent some kind of ‘integration box/system’. That will then force the big companies to follow suit. (a bit like the Tesla car chargers initially being exclusive to Tesla cars). I hope the innovator makes their money before the big boys step in 😉
@@GaryDoesSolar The other innovation I am waiting for is a reliable, affordable domestic wind generator. Living in Wales we have wind more often than sun. I realise it would never produce as much power as my solar but it would supplement.
@@iananderson2677 Yeah, current turbines and expensive, noisy and not-so-reliable. Surely this is a chance for someone (Dyson?) to come in a solve? 🙂
From a control system point of view there's an incompatibility of having two independent controllers trying to set the grid drain to zero. Even running a Zappi or Eddi load for example with an independent solar hybrid inverter plus battery has issues with deciding when there's a surplus to supply the load and NOT drain the battery which will be independently trying to supply it when the solar surplus drops. You have to employ techniques like setting an export threshold before loading etc. Having two inverters with batteries acting independently, both capable of charging and discharging could lead to some interesting bistable latching effects with one supplying or draining the other.
I know Huawei can use IEEE comms to enable cascading hybrid inverters where one is set to master and the other slave. If it's just the battery capacity to be added the battery management can cascade battery stacks but that's under the one manufacturer.
If you had an existing AC coupled battery and wanted to add an additional hybrid inverter and battery etc that couldn't talk to each other it may be possible to set an export threshold on one or slow its response time so the other takes the lead possibly, although it's a compromise and certain load patterns may still cause issues.
Great video once again. All the great details I really appreciate 👍
Thank you 🙏 😀
Agreed. The Powerwall 3 is the best battery out there. For most homes, you can backup the entire home without the need for load management. The integration of a power control system is also huge and solves a problem going back to the original gateway.
Yeah, from what I hear, Powerwalls are the kinds of battery that are installed then just... work :-)
Another first rate video, I'm in the planning stages of a solar/storage project and consider your content essential viewing! I've had an ASHP system for coming up to 5 years in my 1980's built house and would be happy to share my data/experience 👍
Thank you! Wow - 5 years experience with ASHP! That's great. I may come back to you on that when I eventually get round to make a video on that topic!
Great video, Very much looking forward to the PW3! Subscribed
Thanks for the great feedback, and also for subscribing! :-)
An excellent overview. Thanks. Mike L, Sydney NSW Australia
Cheers for the great feedback, Mike! :-)
Thank you @GaryDoesSolar for the great videos. Spoke to an electrician today about an AIO quote. During our discussion about the PW3, he confirmed that it uses LFP chemistry. He also showed me a screenshot he took from the technical plate taken during the presentation day in Birmingham.
Ah brilliant - thanks for letting me know!
I've been looking at options for home. We typically use 11-13Kwh a day, excluding EV charging (11kwh typical) so a single Power Wall or GE AIO would work. But if I did go for it'd want to replace my gas boiler and I've estimated we'd need up to 25kwh on a cold winter day. It's not realistic finalcially to add 2 more units, but 1 more certainly. I need to keep an eye on GE for when they have stacking available.
Another super useful video! Thanks!
Cheers, and I guess as we electrify more and more in the home, we're all going to need greater battery capacity - I'm just happy to see that battery technology is getting better and better all the time to support that (especially with the pricing!) Thanks for the kind words about the video! :-)
Thanks Gary. Lots of useful information.
My pleasure, Jean - I'll keep the videos coming! :-)
I've had the Sungrow GSR-SBR 12.8 KWh battery connected to a 10kW solar system for a year now and it works perfectly. It's usually charged by 10am and gives us all the power we need after sunset without drawing from the grid. Running the large aircon at night for more than an hour depletes it though.
Sounds like a good setup. I think this is going to be a problem for many people though - having a home battery large enough to run AC or a heat pump for a long period of time during the day/night.
Yes. On dome cold days my ground source heat pump uses up to 50kwh running from 5am to 6pm. You would need a huge battery to store enough cheap rate overnight electricity to run the heat pump during the day. On the other hand many EVs now have 80kwh batteries so it is possible, we just need a chemistry that does n ot degrade over decades of operation.@@GaryDoesSolar
Bahahaha. One hr and its flat. FFS. Just by 3 more batteries. Lol
Great video.
Thank you.
Very informative.
Thanks for the great feedback, Andrew! :-)
We have had a Tesla powerwall 2 battery for 3 years now. Even though we are still grid tied it keeps us virtually offgrid. It can run the whole house easily and cuts in straight away if the grid goes down. It is just like the whole house is on a UPS. It is still at full capacity and hasnt degraded at all accorrding to the app Netzero. We had solar installed for one year before we got the battery waiting for the price to go down but it didn't $16,500 NZD installed is a big amount but we have never regretted it since we made that jump to a powerwall 2. We have 22 panels ( 6.5kw) feeding it and they handle it np. The TOU (time of use) config built into it you can adjust yourself to the peak and offpeak power times is great! It is one purchase we have never regretted !!
Thanks for sharing this Steve! Sounds like you're having a great experience with the Powerwall. Will be very helpful to others looking at Tesla products! :-)
So you'll recoup the outlay in 20 years? And then may require a new battery? Makes no sense to me.
@@robertfonovic3551 Where do you get your '20 years' figure from?
Excellent video, here in the US we can go with Enphase Micro Inverters like IQ8 series that will run and produce power for your home from solar panels during the day and you can run a smaller battery if you want to balance load etc. The Tesla Powerwall 3 Is great but if you have an EV your 60 to 80 kWh battery sitting outside is a wasted very large capacity LFP storage solution. We need to quickly see more availability and implementation of that resource as we electrify everything. Much better utilization of you capital I believe.
Good point! And thanks for the kind words about the video :-)
Very useful. Thanks, Gary,
Cheers Gary! :-)
Thank you. Your videos are so informative. I now have 2 powerwall2, ashp, 3kw solar,Tesla model3 coming Saturday.. . All are great investments.. Keep up the good work👍
Cheers Colin - wow, you're really going for it! Well ahead of me - I'm only just thinking about what kind of heat pump to get. I can't quite afford an EV yet, but hopefully later this year. Good luck with the Model 3 and all the best! :-)
We have a Samsung ashp..house is a new build. No app to control which is a shame... The filters block periodically... If I had a choice I would have had a Valliant... Good luck..
@@colinmoney633 Thanks for this information, Colin. Yeah, I'll need to start researching ASHP in earnest soon...
Enjoy your computer-on-wheels!
What an informative video excellent Thank you very much!
You’re very welcome! Thanks for the great feedback 😀👍🏻
I liked your take on the a Tesla PW3. I’m always keen on one more consideration and that’s PRICE. 😉. You showed a picture of the blue prismatic cells that you suspected were being used. I like these because of price. I gather the PW3 is costing GBP6000 plus installation etc. have spent about the same on 48 prismatic cells and an 11.2 Kw inverter from China. This DIY setup lets me run off grid all the time - in Australia where we do get some weeks with clouds and poor sunlight. I know most people will not want to run off grid, but it lets you see the huge margins that must be paid to buy ready made systems.
Hi Sandy, yeah the cells were the first images I came across in fact (just to show the shape). I really like your setup - and it sounds like it's working really well for you! :-)
Hi Sandy. I'm hoping to put together a DIY solar set-up (ideally to store thermally until the winter, but that's another story.) You recommend any good sources of information on getting started? Sites, channels, forums? Also, you know anything about using EV batteries for home storage? I can get a 45 kWh, almost brand-new EV battery, for about 5K, which blows any other source I can see out of the water. Going on a bit. Be really grateful for any advice, links. Thanks. Michael.
Well done, Gary.
Cheers! Glad you're enjoying my videos :-)
Well done. Subscribed..
Thank you! :-)
I regularly watch your channel. It is clearly one of the most useful home-solar YT channels! I live in Reno, NV. I am seriously interested in an Octopus-like service provider. Please consider doing research and a video on such service options in the US. Thanks.
Thanks - great to hear feedback like this :-) I'd love to see if energy providers across the world follow in Octopus Energy's footsteps... Octopus Energy actually licence out their 'Kraken' platform to other energy providers - so they can quickly offer smart tariffs... Might come quicker than you think!
I currently have a Tesla Powerwall 2 and love the features, being able to use solar to charge if a powercut is ongoing. Like you I really want a 2nd but currently looking at the DNO and believe I will need 3 phase as i also have 8 kWh solar and zappi.
Yeah, the DNO factor is a real issue these days!
I have a Powerwall 3 , 1 and a half months old. So far so good.
That's great to hear! :-) Do you have any solar panels connected to it as well?
@@GaryDoesSolar yes, it’s a complete Tesla system. It’s only 16 panels but it’s enough for my wife and I. Not connected to the grid yet, so I can’t send my excess back, but that should be a month away.
Price?
@@paperklip3 it actually fell from when I started the process in late 2022. I paid 30k for more panels than the original plan. After rebates it should run about 16k.
@@billwatkins8227 ouch!!!
Great Info thank you.
You're most welcome, Joe. Thanks for letting me know :-)
Thanks for a great video. I am in the US and considering a Powerwall. I have a proposal from the company. One frustrating thing about the proposal is that they have positioned it on the outside of the house, when I wanted it in my cellar, as shown in many of their promotional materials. When I asked why they couldn’t put it in the cellar, they said that they could if I was willing to spend an extra $8,000 for them to build a fireproof room. None of the pictures include this little item, but they said that the US electrical code requires it! Now I have to decide whether I want them in a less ideal location or spend big bucks. It almost seems like an intentional omission!
Wow - maybe that's why there's a lot of PW2 going for a good price in the UK and Europe at the moment. We're less stringent on the fire regulations?
When I got my PW 2s it led to a huge proliferation of electrical panels on the side of my house even though I had them in the garage. The PW3 will reduce the amount of extra panels as you can see in the video. So maybe just put the oowerwalls by the meter and call it even.
I ordered my second Powerwall 2 about a month ago, so the title certainly grabbed my attention!
I've had the PW2 for 3½ years. I am whatever you call the opposite of a Tesla fanboi, and wouldn't drive one of their latter-day Mondeos for a big clock. However I had to accept that, in 2020, the PW2 was head and shoulders above the competition for my requirements & priorities, which closely match the ones you outline in this vid. Performance has been flawless - looking outside and realising that all the neighbours had a powercut was childishly thrilling - and the app is a masterclass in how these things should be done.
I guess I'm left wondering whether to hang on for the PW3 to become available, or pounce on the PW2 the minute the DNO authorises the connection. Probably the latter…
Thanks for a great vid.
Cheers Mark. Yeah, Elon Musk is not everyone's cup of tea, but his companies do design great products that the rest of the market follow closely. The Powerwall 2 is not only iconic, but it's supremely robust. I've heard from many installers that it's "install and forget" - for me, that's one of the greatest statements you could ever make about an energy management solution :-) I don't think you can go wrong continuing with the PW2 - especially as the pricing is looking really good in Europe at the moment!
I have a Powerwall 2. Contacted Tesla about getting a Powerwall 3 but was told the two are not compatible (I suppose because the 3 has a built in inverter). They offered me a PW2. I asked if the price of the PW2 was lower and they said it was the same. Don't know if I would pay the same money for the inferior product. The advantages of PW3 are way more than the built in inverter which I don't need. Hopefully, they will come up with a policy that helps people in our boat like trading in a PW2 for a PW3 or selling the PW2 at the discount it needs compared to the PW3 or figuring out a way to make them compatible.
@@mariomenezes1153 Agreed. Thanks for sharing your research.
@@markiliffwhat makes you not want to buy one of the most affordable, low maintenance, fastest acceleration, safest vehicles? Just because Elon hurts your feelings? A good product is a good product regardless of who is behind it, my guess is that you are brainwashed by mainstream media as they only spout negativity towards Tesla and Elon. Best not to listen to them.
I have 3x Powerwall 2’s stacked as a full house backup. They are incredible and we don’t even realize when we have a power outage unless I check the Tesla notifications on my phone. System was sized with solar to allow for multi-day outages in Texas summers and goodness it was expensive but I swear by it now. Best zillion $$ ever spent 😂
Brilliant. Just brilliant :-)
Many thanks Gary - your videos are so well set out and informative.
Apologies if i missed it, but i assume that the powerwall is an ac coupled system and so would it be possible to retrofit to a solar system with a DC-coupled battery when extra storage needed (e.g., on addition of a heat pump) without the batteries interfering with each other? Or do you have to replace the DC coupled batteries if upgrading with such a battery? Thanks
Thanks for your kind words, Joe. Yeah, whilst it’s possible to add an AC coupled battery to any existing solar system, if that system already has a battery, then there is likely to be interference between the two batteries. For example, the existing battery of the system draining into the newly added battery. This can sometimes be prevented if all of the equipment is manufactured by the same company, but in the case of GivEnergy (my own setup), I note that this is not the case (which is a shame).
I have a 22kWh Sonnen Batterie with a SonnenProtect. One important feature of that German battery is the 10,000 cycles warranty. Currently I am using it at average 1 cycle per day, when the electricity price spread in a day is larger, I use 2 cycles per day, as I make a bit of extra money with the system. The Protect function is also important for me, because in times of crisis and a grid disruption, it allows me to keep on using the system for about 7 to 8 months per year.
That's a lot of cycles! Way more than the typical 6,000 for most batteries. Cool.
Very informative.
Thanks Joseph! :-)
Thank you Gary. I would suggest that THE most important feature for the mass market would be the ability to "set and forget". The thing stopping me from implementing a system is the sheer complexity of management involved. My partner is a technophobe and would just expect it to work with no input from themselves. I've been monitoring the Givenergy battery owners forum on FB and it feels that you need to be very hands on just to keep the system ticking over. That's fine for me but when I die my partner would be badly exposed.
I totally agree, and I'm hoping I managed to get that point across in the video - in the early days, it's fine to take an interest in how things work, but actually, where we want to get to is an installation simply reporting if there is anything going wrong with it, and keeping quiet the rest of the time...
Thank you for your efforts in getting to that point. I just saw the video as suggesting that capacity was the most important factor. I'm not sure if any order was intended in the features mentioned. Anyway, when it just becomes a once a year system check, and the system delivering everything required at the cheapest rates - then we'll be there.
I have had a Tesla power wall system including solar input and have left it to get on with it. After initial setup It has managed to work out when to charge and how much as well as handling export when there is excess solar. The only help it needs at the moment is to tell it what the price charged and paid by my supplier is when it changes. It even manages the weather. The only thing it doesn't know is when I do something completely different with energy usage. (its no good with variable pricing)
Don't forget that many forums are written by enthusiasts and fiddlers who like to play just like car forums where people mess with their cars (I am one of both at heart) Many people will be happy with the default settings. Just because you can push buttons doesn't mean you have to.
@@vicvalliant1092 Thank you. I'll sign up to the owners forum once it gets going in the UK and see if it is less complicated than Givenergy
I have a PW2 and you are right it is hands on during an extended outage. The onboard solar inverter should however make it so I wouldn’t need to do anything at all. All of my fiddling is usually to avoid getting into a black start situation with PW2, but since the PW3 can charge straight off solar without energizing the rest of the house in principle, it should be able to rescue itself. It’s definitely what I’d be looking at if I wanted a battery for a rental or an elderly parent.
Agreed with respect to LFP.
I have a home made backup using LFP batteries and I will not have an NMC battery in my house. Tesla have arguably the best understanding of NMC, and mostly fabulous software but I still don’t want NMC.
And of course an extra benefit is that LFP is also good for more cycles.
Agreed. Although it's heartening to hear that Tesla has shipped 600,000 Powerwalls to date, and I've not heard anything about fires etc. I'm with you though - I prefer LFP in the home over NMC.
Great video. One additional benefit of PW 3 is that it works seamlessly with Cybertruck (CT). CT can be used as a huge battery backup. Not sure when CT will come to UK but I am considering using a switch to use my CT as a battery backup during power outage, which is rare here in KS. Of course if you buy a foundation series CT this comes with the unit.
Crikey! I didn't know that. Thanks for letting me know. The world is changing! :-)
There’s more info on V2H on the CT page on Tesla website, this is one reason why as an installer we are recommending the Tesla Gen 3 charger as a starting point - plus Gen 3 is now also doing charge on solar - then add battery etc as you go.
Gen 3 charger plus Gateway 2 will be able to offer V2H same as CT at a later date via other Tesla vehicles (later in 24/25) the inverter in cars is being changed to do bidirectional and so offer backup from the vehicle to a home that’s isolated from the grid.
I suspect that V2G will also be possible when the standards for U.K. are set but that’s probably 18mon-2yrs away.
PW3 will be available as an inverter or non inverter versions too so extending the capacity will be cheaper.
Plus It’ll also be available as a non backup unit if I recall correctly the conversation with the Tesla team meaning you don’t have to pay for the backup gateway if you don’t want it, again saving probably £1k off installation
Our humble Nissan Leaf does too..
I know a guy who used to charge his ZOE at Pod Point at Tesco, drive home, cook his tea then dump the rest to Grid for cash then go back to Tesco for more..
2 full Batteries a day sold - no wonder Tesco stopped free charging. The cheeky beggar was even doing it when it reduced to 15mins, jumping out every 15mins to restart the free charge timer. Go home and top up his pension!!
And they want to get rid of CHADEMO!!
So no need to line Elon's greasy pockets for bi direction charging and backup.
@@whlphil Thanks for all this extra detail! 🙂
@@tristramsnowdon5256 doesn’t matter the CT inverter that allows those features will be incorporated into rest of vehicles in due course so likely within 1-2 years bidirectional will be available on all. This was disclosed on a video with Sandy Munro by either Lars Moravian or Drew Baglino can’t remember which one
Another great video, thanks Gary. I really like the idea of the integrated inverter (making this a true "All In One" - EPS management aside). One question I had though is how efficient the inverter will likely be for the average (say 6kwh) array in the UK, keeping in mind your recent video about oversizing. Is there a chance the inverter will be 'too' powerful/inefficient for the average array?
Hi Philip, cheers for the great feedback! Yeah, there are definitely pros and cons to having a built-in inverter (especially one that capable). But if battery prices continue to fall, maybe it becomes a non-issue to have an inverter more capable than it needs to be? I don't know...
I have a Growatt system with 5kW hybrid inverter and 2x 6.5kWh wall mounted batteries (11.7kWh usable). A single battery was marginal for my daily usage. The second battery allows for more peak rate export to Octopus Flux and powering aircon in the summer. The Growatt inverter is frustratingly capped at 3kW output from battery even though the pair of batteries are capable of 6kW.
Powerwall 3 looks like an excellent option but I suspect it would cost several times more than what I have. As an engineer I like the modularity of my system and enjoy tweaking the settings to play with different import/export strategies. For the average non-technical user this would be a deal-breaker and the Tesla solution would be much more attractive.
I agree, Matt. And I'd like there to be more standardisation across manufacturers as well. I'm sure it'll come eventually. It's interesting times in the home solar and battery world! :-)
Tesla is mostly hype.
Another excellent, informative video - thanks Gary. I have a modular battery system which is plug and play and I was expecting to see the price of the battery modules drop from Feb 1st 2024 as the UK Government extended its energy saving materials scheme to include retro fit home batteries. However, the batteries for my system have remained the same - do you know why? Either the retailers are slow to extend the savings or perhaps I've misunderstood how that works.
So, the VAT element should disappear. There was always the danger that manufacturers simply held onto that themselves - this has happened in other markets (like sunscreen and baby products) - but I'm a firm believer in the free market, and it only takes another distributor to see the advantage for them, to pass on the VAT rebate... :-)
An excellent video!👍👍👍
Thanks very much, Garth - great feedback to receive! :-)
It will be interesting to see the differences from an installers point of view as our UK home electric infrastructure is quite different to the USA in a lot of ways. We fit Powerwall 2 a lot and it’s a great product, I doubt Powerwall 3 will be coming to the UK any time soon. I had a meeting with Tesla Energy last week and they are really pushing Powerwall 2 in the UK at the moment. Will be interesting to see what design changes they will need to make to the gateway/backup side before they can roll it out here…
Yeah, Tesla is certainly US-centric in their approach to the market (I can't blame them as it's a huge market) but I agree - it would be good to see what they're able to do with UK installations. Hopefully, they're looking at that!
great vid, have you done a pros and cons of your own system, things you would like to see improve?
Thanks. As it happens, I have a Patreon, where I talk about my own solar and battery setup and also my plans for the future, if that's of interest: www.patreon.com/GaryDoesSolar
As my panels have a complex shading issue (I took regular pictures of the roof) I went for micro-inverters (generally considered better than optimisers). This really took me down the route of an AC coupled system. I didn't bother with the EPS as it would have required some rearranging of circuits and having a split PME/TT system. I'd probably already discounted the Tesla Powerwall 2 on the grounds of cost. Also, at the time, availability of any system, including GivEnergy, was scarce. I also wanted 5kW and that discounted GivEnergy (AC, at least). I've got Solax and I'm fairly happy with that and have good control with Home Assistant. The one box approach of Tesla is obviously good and is being copied by others.
Thanks for sharing your experiences - this will be really helpful to others! Overall, I still prefer AC Coupled over DC Coupled as it's more akin to a modular approach. And it's great that you've been able to task Home Assistant to control/report everything.
Thanks Gary.
You’re most welcome! 👍🏻
I think if the PW3 had LFP chemistry, it would be promoted in the marketing. My bet is that the chemistry hasn’t changed. It also has more hardware on board which adds to the weight.
Yeah, this is what I'm thinking too. I'm hoping that someone will be able to confirm one way or the other soon... And if it's NMC, it's actually a great chance for Tesla competitors to take advantage.... (hard to take on Tesla at anything these days!)
I disagree. Even for their cars Tesla doesn't talk about battery chemistry.
@@pauld3327 That may be true, but people are becoming more and more informed and want to know...
@@pauld3327I disagree. It’s well known that recent standard range models have LFP chemistry. The advice regrading charging strategy is also different with these models, i.e. it’s OK to charge to 100%.
Its well know what chemistry is used in the car.@@pauld3327
The “best” features depend on how your local utility works really. If you pay more at certain times of day, the battery can add value by charging at low periods and releasing energy at high. In my area, utilities are starting to charge more for peak power (kW) .. so peak shaving is where I would benefit the most.
I agree, and hopefully more and more energy providers will start offering such "time of use" tariffs to their customers, just like Octopus Energy does in the UK and other countries.
Looks like a cracking bit of kit
Yeah, I do like it that Tesla comes up with the right kind of product at the right time, showing the way to others...
Fantastic vids; I was wondering about a couple of items that you might know about; when will PW3 be available for UK/IRL markets? And sense of pricing? And lastly…. Will it play well and integrate with previous/existing inverters and batteries…. Do you know?
Thank you for the kind feedback. I'm hearing mid/late 2024 for introduction to the UK, but no word on pricing. Apparently PW3 doesn't play with PW2 at all :-( but will integrate to any inverter.
@@GaryDoesSolar any insight into LG battery, seem to be the same form factor as PW3….. is it any good
@@gearoidoconnor6900 I'm not familiar with LG batteries - if I get time, I'll take a look!
Interesting this storm watch is used on the Ecoflow Smart Home Panel 2 which it charges up battery to max 👍
Great stuff (and of course, an easy feature to implement!)
Fantastic video. In future ones, if you can comment as well on the ability of the battery to charge discharge on its own and the assocuted app to monitor it, would be extremelly useful. Hoping the powerwall3 is available in Spain soon.
Thanks for the great feedback. Yes, I'll be picking up on that topic as time goes on. For the mass market, I think people would be happy for their setup to essentially manage itself, and simply reporting performance periodically.
I love your videos. I just wanted that there was something like Octopus in Portugal.
Thanks, and I think the other energy companies are (slowly) waking up. It won't be long...
Great video Gary. Very informative and you made it easy to follow.
I currently have two solar panel systems on my roof. Two different solar companies. Kind of a pain but it is what it is. I’m looking to add a battery to my home. My question is do I have to choose between the two panel systems as to which one will connect to the battery or can they both somehow connect to the same battery?
Thanks for the kind feedback. Unfortunately, l'm not in a position to provide individual advice (not least because of potential liability issues, even if that advice is given free - such is the world today). You're best to speak to an installer for such advice, or post a comment onto a solar forum (e.g. this one in the UK: facebook.com/groups/2197329430289466). Good luck!
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you! Most appreciated.
Thanks Gary for this very informative video! Just wondering if you are familiar with ecoflwo powerocean? it seems like a close competitor to PW3 just by the looks of their specs- 5kwh from start, expandable to 45kwh, 10kw output, backup mode supported, and also LFP battery! The battery chemistry would be on top of my consideration, if I were about to instill this big chuck of battery in my house, I'd like them to be as safe as possible. Unfortunately there is not much info available about this brand...Will keep following your channel, keep up the good work!
You're very welcome - thanks for the great feedback! The video seems to be getting some traction and generating a lot of commentary - fab!
Now, I'd always thought of EcoFlow as portable power units, but I just searched for the PowerOcean, and it looks to be very similar! I'll dig into the specs and prices a bit more... thanks for highlighting! :-)
Many thanks
That’s really kind of you - thank you! 🙏
Good to see the new battery options - that additional (3rd+) solar array thing would have helped me and is the bit I think is most exciting.
The additional cost of the sophisticated battery over the lower discharge rate one seems unlikely to be justified for me had it been available.
I just had the two 9.5kwh batteries installed as well, and I did think about that 3.6kw maximum discharge rate.
I expect - but haven’t had enough time with them yet - to see quite short periods of time when the house draws more than the 3.6kw (peak load exceeding peak battery discharge rate) and isn’t able to rely on its solar or really cheap rate grid power to make up the difference.
It will be interesting to see if dipping into the grid adds up ( kWh cost * how long (and by how much) the house load exceeded the battery discharge rate). If it’s just the toaster and the kettle I might get a slower kettle (sneaky!)
And I see in other households people do seem happy to change their habits a bit to smooth demand out somewhat (especially if they’re paying the bills!)
Will be particularly interesting when the heatpump arrives.
I imagine it might crop up most in the darkest longest winter evenings and early mornings outside of the low rate.
Of course the answer about whether it will have been a ‘mistake’ to go for the lower discharge option will also depend on what the price was of the two competing batteries at decision date. Those Tesla batteries seem ruinously expensive!
But it’s all such fun!
Haha - agreed, it is certainly fun! One option might be to add a GivEnergy 3kW inverter, so that each of your 9.5kWh batteries is on its own inverter. I don't know if that's an allowed option though, but if it.was, that would give you 6.6kW :-)
And increase the maximum number of solar arrays ..
I have a battery ordered, I see two terminals that’s awesome! Gonna have a solis inverter and victron solar charge controller both connected to it
Sounds good - does the job!
I have the Tesla batter 2 and power wall with 12 panels best thing I have purchase
Now that's a great endorsement :-)
I believe the powerwall 3 has separate outputs for loads that are battery backed during a power cut and normal on-grid loads, so you can ensure only critical circuits stay up in the event of a power outage.
Now, that sounds pretty cool!
I much prefer the idea of separate items to make up an ESS. This not only allows picking & mixing the best items between manufacturers but also for me, having a single unit that charges, inverts and is a battery means if any one of the those components go down the whole unit fails. I do accept however that most people cannot do the work themselves so it's a slightly mute point if your not a handyman.
Agreed - there's a lot to be said for modularity - and even more if it's across different manufacturers!
Thanks Gary, clear explanation! what is known about Solar Edge one?
Cheers for the great feedback. I'm not a big fan of the SolarEdge battery - it's NMC (and I even hear it's got a built-in fire extinguisher???). It's also expensive and you don't have a lot of programming control over it. Happy to be corrected by anyone - maybe the spec has improved since it was first launched...
Your right til now, they just released a Total new system.
@@boerbiet237 Ooh, ok, I'll take a look 👍
THE drawback of the Tesla Power Wall is that it cannot be obtained without solar. I frankly DO NOT WANT roof-mounted solar, I want a whole-home battery that steps in during the fairly rare electrical outages in my area.
Is that still the case? I know they were doing that for a while, but I know in the UK, it's possible to buy one without solar. Should be the same in other countries...
There were many articles last fall stating you can now buy it without solar.
It has been a while since I checked. When last I did, one could not buy separate from solar. Will have to recheck...it may be time to sign the check...
I have an appointment with Tesla to come by my San Francisco house to add the PW3 to my Enphase/LG panels I had for 5 years. It wasn't before as thre was a PW shortage. Awesome I pay under $10/month for my electric bill! Want to get rid of my $40/month gas bill to go 100% electric!
I have a CT coming & hoping it will substitute for, or at least, supplement Powerwalls
Very interesting stuff and thanks for sharing your reseach. I guess if you also own an electric car the benefits of the power wall are even greater. Thinking about that though, if you own a modern electric car with car to home capabilities, would that not make having a power wall unnecassary?
Thanks for your kind words :-)
Now, I'm getting asked this a lot, and I'll be covering this in a future video. As an EV will not be at the property a 100% of the time, there is still very much the case for having a home battery, and perhaps the size of that home battery could be chosen according to the percentage of the time the EV will be away...
Hi Gary
Another interesting video. I am still on the fence over solar/battery installation but my current thinking is leaning towards starting with a battery only setup using Octopus Agile tariff so I can take advantage of the very effective averaging of unit cost. I will be aiming for an average unit cost of 12-14p per kWh. As space in the house is limited and we have no convenient outbuildings I am leaning towards using 4-5 small modular Growatt (3.3kWh) batteries stacked in the loft as they are easy to lift up through the fairly small hatch. The inverter would go in the loft as well. The installation will be above the metercandceasilyvaccessible via existing cupboards more or less in direct line between the two.
We average about 10.5 kWh per day at the moment and heat with a gas boiler which I have no plans to replace. I designed the CH system myself so the radiators are generously sized and it heats the house well at a flow temperature of 58C. I doubt a HP would save any money and would probably cost the same or more to run on present COP and servicing costs. On past experience I would expect the boiler to last at least another 10 years. Maybe if a 'direct HP' ( ie one that simply replaced the boiler without requiring a large intermediate c hot water cylinder) became available at a competitive cost it might be attractive. Likely to be a few years before that happens.
I might add solar panels later as the extra installation costs of splitting the job will be quite small as most of this will be for the panels, linking cables, scaffolding etc. The new VAT free cost for the battery makes the split more attractive.
Of course it might be better to wait for new battery technology but I think this could be another 4-5 years so opportunity cost will be higher.
Mike
Hi Mike - thanks, as always, for your excellent insight and thinking. It's not easy eh? to determine the best course of action! So many factors at play... I'm always interested to hear how you intend to progress though :-)
A good introduction to some of the key features of any Home Battery system.
If you are right (you have been in the past), then these will indeed form the main focus for Mass adopters.
The Enphase Battery 5P already provides many of the features mentioned,
it has 100% useable 5kWH capacity with peak output power of 7.68 kW for 3 seconds and 6.14 kW for 10 seconds, Rated (continuous) output apparent power 3.2 kVA.
These are "stackable" to increase the power output, so you could buy 2 of these for less than the Powerwall3 and they come with an industry leading 15year warranty.
Finally they are definitely lithium iron phosphate (LFP) chemistry.
My personal opinion would be to go with Enphase as I would be installing Panels that are designed to work with Enphase Microinverters as a fully integrated controlled system.
Yeah, I think I would do the same - keep everything to the same manufacturer - better system control and data integration that way 👍🏻
FYI the Prismatic batteries are typically ~300Ah and store about 1 KWh. so 48 cells can deliver about 48KWh vs 13.6KWh for a Tesla 2 or 3. (I have 3 banks each are 16 Cells in series.)
Good insight - thank you for sharing with me!
We have a small 6kW ASHP. GE Hybrid + 2X9.5’s is just about enough for us and has worked OK (Not perfect) over winter. Our manual EPS has a 20A limit (i.e. Not much!) Essentially runs everything except the ASHP… So it’s not full backup.
I like my GE set-up, it does what it needs to do, but would I go TESLA if I started again. Possibly if it was mounted outside…
GE/Octopus Energy offers automation. Will Tesla offer better rates - like the EV’s - for Tesla Powerwall owners?
Thank you for a great presentation.
My pleasure, John. Thanks for sharing details on your setup! 👍🏻
Very informative as always Gary. Do you know whether the Powerwall 3 would be able to add to an existing setup of Powerwall 2s? I was thinking about adding 2 more 2s to my existing 2 to give me 4 as the price is quite good right now, and the stock will go quite soon I imagine, but would it be an advantage do you think to add 2 x 3s?
Hi Steve, according to the Tesla documentation I read, apparently not :-(
...but I'm sure someone will find a way!
Thanks@@GaryDoesSolar
I have a 5kWh battery (4 usable) that can only provide 3kW. I am happy with this as I only get rare peaks that it cannot supply all the energy. I'd say 95% of my day energy is provided by the battery (less in the winter) and I think this is very acceptable. I'll have to rethink this when I get a heat pump.
Sounds like it's working for you. Yeah, adding a heat pump might require more battery storage...
Thank you Garry. Do know if PW3 can be connected to a PW2?
I have recently installed a PW2, I feel I will need a 2nd battery, but am feeling insecure in case PW2 is discontinued and PW3 is not compatible.
Thank you.
You're most welcome! Now, what I heard so far is the PW3 is not compatible with the PW2 unfortunately :-( That could well change though... let's see what Tesla do...
🤝Thanks!
You're most welcome! :-)
Shame PW3 was not available before I went to a GE AIO. But over all happy(ish) with the GE 3 box (!) solution in operation and they have new battery management solutions to come out soon so you can add more to it. Unless we go to electric heating though in some form we are ok with the AIO size, just, on a non solar day.
There does seem to be quite a lot of lossage though with all the conversions AC/DC it is doing.
At least you can just get another inverter and the new box from GE and double your output. When it is available.
Hi Ian, I wouldn't worry - I'm hearing great things about the AIO. Also, the PW3 is not expected to be available in the UK until much later this year.
It's great to see GivEnergy adopting a modular approach to their products, and this is really what the market is looking to see, IMHO.
Ac start-up matters, but a dryer can stay on a very high consumption for a long time, because of its heater. Start-up issues usually occur when an inductive load is turned on.
True.
Thanks for promoting the discussion V2X and getting the solar supported by giant more powerful battery than my home could support. Barney
What are you on about?
@@GaryDoesSolar sorry for the confusion Gary. I am a fan and made a mistake when trying to buy you a coffee. Found I had signed up to run a channel, not my intention. Tesler power wall, use the tesler car battery instead? Kia and Nissan offer V2 H. Tesler Southampton didn’t know what I was talking about either. I had hoped that my comment about Octopus claimed to have this provision already would ring a bell. I already have solar and battery in the home. Am buying an EV only if it can offer facility to bolster what is already in existence with octopus Fit. Barney
@@user-ww1ip3ch7l Ah ok, no problem Barney - I understand where you're coming from now. I thought you were against EV batteries being used in the home, but you were actually making the point that it's a great thing and that more EV companies should be championing V2H/V2G. I completely agree, and will be looking into all of this in a video shortly. Let's see what happens over the next year or so... it's an exciting time! 🙂
Hi there, you said you had give energy battery installed into your house, which is what I was looking at, do you think the Tesla battery is a better option to your setup?
Yes I have GivEnergy in my house and it's performed extremely well since installation (just over a year ago). GivEnergy batteries are also very affordable compared to other manufacturers - especially Tesla, which is one of the most expensive brands.
If money wasn't an issue, I'd go for Tesla I reckon, but I wouldn't install it inside the house if it's NMC chemistry. GivEnergy batteries are all LFP.
I have a 10kw solar system with 10.5kw battery, south/east/west facing (UK). Over winter, October to March we struggle to fill the battery capacity with solar but fill it up at cheap rates at night which will get most through to the next nightly slot. We are heavy electric users over winter mainly due to heat pump providing heat and water but also the sewage pump and MVHR system constantly running, plus the oven and hobs are also electric.
I have a V2L car I plug into our hybrid system and that supplements the house battery, getting us through to the cheap rates on cloudy days when the house batteries aren't enough. This is the best set-up IMO. You don't need more than 10kw house battery. Better investing in a hybrid inverter with off grid capacity and a V2L car so you can access that huge battery capacity sitting on the drive. From April to September especially on sunny days the house batteries fill up quickly and you don't need more capacity than 10kw. Selling back to the grid gives minimum returns currently. With a hybrid off/on grid system you can also avoid power cut issues which affects standard solar inverters.
Hi Adam, thanks for sharing your experience. I agree, there is a lot of value in have a very large battery present for a fair percentage of the time, backed up by a (as you suggest) 10kWh battery :-)
New battery cells from CATL with lithium manganese iron phosphate (LMFP) chemistry are most likely to have been used. This new chemistry has the same density as NMC with magnesium in the mix. LMFP is cheaper than NMC but slightly more than LFP.
Thanks for this insight, Michael - I'm still waiting for official word from Tesla - who knows?
RE: EPS - it took me some lengthy research and queries with multiple installers to finally confirm that NOT ALL systems with EPS are capable of charging a battery from the solar panels when the grid supply is interrupted. So it is possible to spend a few £thousands and be out of electricity on a sunny day :p
The setup I settled for uses an inverter from Growatt, 18 panels connected as two strings (E-W) and a single 2nd generation Powerwall. When the zombie apocalypse comes this should still run for as long as there is sunlight or battery reserves. :)
Agreed - and it just shows that meticulous research is still the key today. It's a fair assumption that people would make about solar topping up batteries during a power outage, but as you say, in many cases a wrong one.
In UK our electricity grid is very stable it's very rare we have power cuts. If needs be I can run extension lead from my inverter . For me not worth paying alot more for that feature
@@AdrianMcDaid how many pandemics did you foresee in 2018? ;)
@@NunoLima1337 hi, what does that got to do with my eleckly going off? Still can run power if stuck untill battery goes flat and if it's between November to Feb I'm hardly producing any solar power.
Yeah my Givenergy has a 3kw off grid output, not much but will run freezer, Internet and pv inverters etc.
This really depends on where you live. Here in northern Norway, with an EV, avg consumption in March is 98kwh per day with 10-15kw peak output required. In February avg consumption was 120kwh per day...
That’s a hefty consumption!
Garry, as always very interesting. I will be installing two Tesla Powerwalls in my home. Would you wait for the Tesla Powerwall 3 or go ahead with 2 Tesla Powerwall 2's as the combined out put is 10kW, or install a Powerwall 2 now and add a Powerwall 3 when they are available? I would love your thought please.
Thanks James. For me, because my garage (where the battery would go) is directly below my bedroom, I'd not go for any battery solution that was NMC. But if I was installing batteries on an outside wall, that would be fine.
And it's worth knowing that Tesla has just reported that they've shipped 600,000 Powerwalls to date. And trust me, if they were all going on fire the whole world would know about it! So, maybe I'm being too risk-averse?
In the UK, PW2 pricing is really good at the moment, so taking advantage of buying two units (increased power and capacity) makes a lot of sense. There's no mixing and matching possible with the PW3 though (which is a shame).
All the best with what you decide - I don't think you can go wrong though...
@@GaryDoesSolarwhat are your thoughts on LTO chem batteries?
@@GaryDoesSolar Thank you, that is a great help.
The integration of the solar inverter certainly simplifies the hardware installation but will it cause issues with the maximum length of solar DC cables? Solar inverters are often installed in the attic so cable runs are short but batteries of this size are generally installed outside or in a garage which could be a distance away?
That's a good point - thanks for raising.
Can run 4mm DC cable upto around 70m before volt drop becomes an issue then just step up to 6mm for upto 150m so not an issue
Pretty sure that the Powerwall 3 comes with three solar inverter inputs (rather than the mentioned six). Still better than most inverters though! :)
Oh, and thanks, great video. :)
According to www.cleanenergyreviews.info/blog/tesla-powerwall-3-review this is the official Tesla Powerwall 3 Datasheet: static1.squarespace.com/static/655ca2b0f826bb7b2b4dfe90/t/65e3263840ddfe5f5e3c746c/1709385276736/Powerwall_3_Datasheet_NA-EN.pdf. It confirms 6 MPPTs.
Hi Clark, thanks for your very kind words! Here's the data I was working from for the video: digitalassets.tesla.com/tesla-contents/image/upload/Powerwall_3_Datasheet_Rev-1_03312023.pdf
This is where I got the '6' from.
@@GaryDoesSolarHm, I see what you mean... I'll put my "belief" in the "questionable" basket for now... :)
Very informative and professional video as always Gary. Thanks.
A few years ago I did consider getting a PW2 but inventory was thin on the ground and they were pretty expensive. So I went another route and installed a modular system based on Victron & Pylontech gear. I now have 14.4kWh of Pylontech US5000 LFP batteries and a 5kVA Multiplus-II inverter with a pair of 250/60 MPPT solar charge controllers fed by a 6.8kWp Trina array. I started with 9.6kWh of battery storage initially then added a third 4.8kWh module along with the solar PV setup in June last year. It has performed exceptionally well even over the winter months so we’re very happy indeed.
To be honest I’m glad that I didn’t go the Tesla route because, although I was never a big fan of Elon Musk previously, I find his recent antics even more unacceptable and wouldn’t want to put any money in his pockets. Sorry to bring politics and personalities into the equation but for me this would be a blocker.
From a specifications point of view the PW3 seems very good, especially the likes of the 11.5kW power output. My own hybrid inverter can only manage 4.4kW and although this is fine for the vast majority of the day, our range cooker can certainly pull more power than the inverter can provide at times. But I could simply install a larger inverter, and Victron produce 8kW, 10kW and 15kW versions of the Multiplus-II now so I might do that. And that’s why I actually prefer the modular solution I have built, because I can tailor the individual components to suit my needs. I know this probably isn’t what the mass market is looking for, and some people actually want to see the Tesla logo on their products. But for me, I don’t want to get locked in to anyone’s ecosystem and I want to be able to expand my system over time with interoperable products.
Thanks again.
Hi Craig, I hear what you're saying. I do like Elon Musk, but lately, he's causing a lot of unnecessary trouble - and I'm not surprised this is causing people to shun him! I agree, a modular approach is the way to go - that allows those with limited budgets to at least get started, building over time. And of course, older kit can be upgraded over time too. Let's hope that we see standards coming into the home energy space soon!
@@GaryDoesSolar yeah fair enough, I'm a big fan of the late Steve Jobs but he too was no angel at times and many people never warmed to him either. For me the big difference between those two is that Steve focussed most of his attention and energy on making better products, didn't let himself get dragged into politics, and kept his ego mostly in check. Tesla clearly have some very good engineers and designers working hard behind the scenes and if you can put Musk to one side then more power (no pun intended) to you! 😅
One aspect that I don't think you covered in your video unless I'm mistaken is the ability to tinker and alter system behaviour where it doesn't quite meet a user's needs. For example, I've already developed a few Node-RED flows to take advantage of Octopus Saving Sessions and Intelligent Octopus Go on my Victron system. I am also about to develop a flow to ensure I keep some headroom in my DC coupled batteries when the sun is shining strongly so that I can absorb solar power at a higher power level than my inverter can export. Otherwise when my batteries are 100% full (today that was achieved by 10am) then during the peak solar time of day my oversized 6.8kWp array might be able to deliver say 5.5kW (even in February!) but I can only export 4.4kW of this to the grid. So, if I keep my batteries at, say, 95% by pre-emptively setting a forced export, then I can absorb the peaks in solar power while exporting at more of an "average" power level. Hopefully that makes sense.
So, would I be correct in assuming that this sort of tinkering isn't possible with a Tesla PW3? Or is there a mechanism that can be used similar to Node-RED on the Victron gear?
@@craigchamberlain Yeah, it seems to be the case that those that are truly brilliant in their thinking come with less-than-savoury elements of their character. I guess the question is, does the latter offset the former? I don't know, but the whole world has certainly benefited from the former! Great that you're developing all the Node-RED stuff - I've not looked into that, so maybe something to get into before long! I'm mainly JS and PHP so far... As far as I know, Tesla products are totally closed on the API front currently - maybe that will change one day...
I have had my solar / Powerwall 2 installed about 3 years. Not sure if that makes me an early adopter or part of growing mass market.
My view now is that I wish I had gone for two PW2s instead of one. Once you start switching more towards electricity and trying to make sure it as natural as possible then you realise that you need more and more storage. The household has two electric cars, a Mixergy tank and I tend to use battery power for the gardening. In winter 13.5 storage capacity is not enough.
Output capacity is also important (one car draws 7.2)
Ease of installation and weather protection are also important.
I am not certain about the emergency supply also being linked to a static battery. I did have to have my Tesla PW2 replaced after two years because of a fault. So I am not sure putting all my eggs in one basket is the right option. So I have been looking at portable electric storage that can provide power during power cuts but also when on the move. I should also add that my car has vehicle to load so in theory access to a large battery.
I don’t know enough to comment on NMC v LFT.
I'd still say you were an early adopter, as the rest of the market is just waking up.... :-)
Thanks for your insight - will be useful to others!
Thanks Gary and keep up the good work. I should have added that I use Octopus for off peak rates when needed. I also have invested in Ripple Energy’s wind and solar farms. My aim is to hopefully get rid of using gas without too much financial pain.
@@stevieguk8014 Thanks - will do! And your strategy is very similar to mine!
seems a fairly natural evolution of the pw2. I’m actually not a huge fan of the automated part - it seems to be harder to control if you want to do that. 11kw output is fantastic, and the combined unit should be much easier (cheaper?) to install - we’ll have to see. I’d suggest the additional weight might partly be covered by the embedded gateway?
Thanks for taking the time to comment. Good point about the weight!
Gary, I have just had solar & 9.5kw GivEnery battery installed, I’m so confused about which energy supplier & tariff is best. I don’t have an ev but do have an iboost. I’m likely to use more energy than sell back to grid. Any advice?? ps I’m with Shell energy & awaiting migration to Octopus who have bought Shell. Thanks again
Hi Peter, thanks for taking the time to comment. I thoroughly recommend you watch my tariff strategy series here. It will give you some good ideas. There are links to introductions to Octopus tariffs in the videos as well - good luck!
ua-cam.com/video/fc5yWCQS4_Q/v-deo.html
My parents have a Huawei 10kwh battery and recently changed over to Octopus Go to charge it overnight, especially during the winter. That has saved them a lot of money. They have a gas hob and boiler, all else is electric (no EV yet!). So the battery can cover their daily use for 90p.
@GaryDoesSolar I'd be interested to know how you think the new Powerwall 3 fits in alongside microinverters which seem to be increasing in prevalance?
Yeah, I think the two can work together well (although the inverter in the PW3 would be redundant). Now, I'm hearing (but not confirmed yet) that there is a PW3 without the build-in inverter. To me, that's perfect for a microinverter solution....
@@GaryDoesSolar great intel as always Gary - I'm looking to get solar and battery ordered over the coming month, so might sit on my hands and wait for the TPW3 to come out!
Hi I agree Octopus are a great energy supplier but with one caveat they do not have a low night time energy tariff for someone wanting to have battery storage only, that is no Solar input or having a EV charger.
I'm hoping that will come in time...
I have a battery and storage heaters as the main electricity grid consumers. The tariffs that used to be suitable have become EV owner only! Last year I believe the government forced the energy companies to change their Economy 7 tariffs so the daytime rate was lowered, but what they also did is raise the overnight rate by a similar amount. So for example 6p/kw raised 10p so that 46p daytime could be 36p. It’s a massive ~260% increase in night rate! I’m currently on Octopus Agile but would prefer Octopus Go for its predictable overnight rate.
Are there any traditional cheap rate Economy 7 supplier available?
Another interesting feature that Tesla have just introduced is charge your Tesla car with excess solar. So you need a Tesla car, a PW2 and seems to work with any EV charger. The slider bar on the app gains a second sliding dot, first dot is charge from any source to that level and a 2nd dot is charge to that 2nd level with excess solar. The setup uses the current sensors in the PW2 to measure the exported current and then continuously adjusts the charging current demand from the car to minimise the exported energy.
Sounds great! 👍🏻
I have 4kWp solar and a Powerwall 2. My criteria are capacity, output and resilience. That said I imagine for everyone the initial outlay would be top of the list but that's not important right now.
Reason for purchase - maximising solar and minimising future electricity bills, along with blackout management as I'm in an area where this is still a thing.
I use about 6 kW/day annual average broken down as 7-10 winter, 2-3 summer (i.e. practically full utilisation) so the 13.6kW capacity is ideal for me though I'd never turn down more.
The biggest issue is that managing power requirement is a learning process - no more than one big load at once, please!.
It has to be said that output at 3.6kW is not brilliant if you want to charge an EV (7kW) modestly quickly. Minor issue for now as I charge elsewhere at low cost.
The Tesla app is a doddle to use and I haven't yet felt the need to go onto a smart meter where I will find greater savings and more utilisation. That's coming, I'm on Octopus already so shouldn't be difficult. (And thanks for your videos on the meter topic)
Thanks for taking the time to share all this - great insight! And it will be very useful to a lot of people :-)
I'm looking into intelligent octopus flux for my 6 bed student property and want it to manage itself best as possible as I won't be living there. Currently it's only compatible with GivEnergy, but do you know what other manufacturers this tariff will be compatible with?
Hi Fred, you're right - at present, it's just GivEnergy. I know that Octopus' intention is to expand to other batteries, but I haven't heard anything since the launch. I am planning a video on it soon though, and hopefully, I'll have more information by then...
Excellent video, thanks. My 2 cents from a town in Massachusetts under HOA restrictions for solar roof placement and State Electrical code control for placement of Powerwall and other mfgs. installation locations, i.e. in the finished basement, garage, or outside.
So, in some instances, we can't put the Powerwall/other mfgs in the basement, although the installers will try to talk you into this option and then the electrical Dept. or Fire Dept. says the location doesn't meet code. You're down to two choices after this and outside location, especially with the Powerwall 3 is the ideal solution, for many of the reasons you talk about in your video.
Thanks for the great feedback, and also for this extra insight. Yeah, it does sound like an outside installation is the way to go for the PW3 for many people then - it can handle being being outside easily, and if NMC chemistry, it's less of a safety issue...
I just had 2 PW3s and Solar 7.25 kWh consisting of 18 panels installed at my home, I have no experience with other systems but the Tesla system is totally seamless. The installers said that the batteries are LFP but they may also be guessing.
I am hooked to the grid and the solar / battery is working but am waiting for the city to inspect and approve exporting to the grid which is scheduled for next Wednesday.The local utility provides for credit 1 to 1 for export and pays any surplus once a year.
I hear the talk about how BEV cars are going to cause issues on the grid but IMHO the amount of people installing Solar/batteries should more than offset and extra loads
Hi James, thanks for sharing this. Of all the home battery manufacturers, Tesla seems to be the only one that provides a "fire and forget" product - which of course is a key requirement for the mass market.
Gary, I presently have a West South West facing 3.9kW array on the roof of a 2 bedroom bungalow in rural Central Scotland and run a Zappi and Eddi on it. I’m considering a home storage battery as well but wonder if it is worth adding a 2nd solar array on the other side of the roof that would be facing ENE? Worth the extra investment (I believe I can get a grant for a combined solar and home battery installation but not for just a home battery). The local council has been installing Powerwall 2 and 3 or 4 solar panels that face North West on the council houses in the area which is why I asked. Also I’m already on the Intelligent Octopus EV tariff
Hi Tim, what you're planning sounds good. I'd recommend you try out my free daily modelling utility, to see what the generation of the new array might be, here: garydoessolar.com/utilities/dailymodellingutility/?fbclid=IwAR28jKE0mR7bG_E8N4RFSfCZCSKa3unYK71vq6F1-g204Iut-gwuimDa60w
This is the free version, but there's more advanced paid-for version if you really want to get into the data.
Ideally you'd be looking to have a roof pitch of 30 degrees or more to make the best of a ENE orientation I'd suggest.
Maybe a ground mount array, instead of the ENE roof suface.
By my calculations, the pw3 has one of the best cost-to-payoff of the batteries I've looked at. 8 years to payoff just the battery (assuming on-peak load and off-peak charging). However, it's the installation that kills the product. Installed it goes for 8 years to 16. However, with the incentives, it drops to 11 years. That puts it on par with the ecoflow delta pro.
Crikey - installation costs are huge!
I've been living with 2 Powerwalls for several years now (I think they are powerwall 2's). Anyway, 27kwh is enough to run our house off grid 24 hours no problem AS LONG AS the HVAC system isn't running. During the hottest and the coldest months when our home's HVAC runs a lot, the powerwalls only last a few hours once the sun goes down. We have a large home, around 6,000 sq/ft of living space, with 2 furnances, 2 A/C's, and several refrigerators/freezers. So, our usage is high.
Overall, we love the Powerwalls and they have been an awesome upgrade to our home. I just wish I could afford 5 or 6 of them! It's all about battery prices for these, just like EVs
Thanks for sharing this, Jason - I think it will be useful to many people who are trying to understand what the experience will be like with a home battery - including a Tesla Powerwall setup. Yeah, pricing is always an issue, but pricing continues to drop over time, so such products will soon be more affordable to many :-)
I do wander if any Powerwall 2 owners will make the switch,
Been considering buying a second Powerwall 2 but could possibly be worth waiting and seeing what values of 2nd hand pw2's are if people do switch.
Hi Lee, I'm seeing comments to the effect that if you already have a PW2, then adding another PW2 instead of switching to PW3 makes a lot of sense. With 2 x PW2, you have a 10kW output - close to the PW3... And PW2 prices have never been cheaper!
With heat mode, how cold can an operational battery continue to operate? Can it be used off grid with daily cycles? Does it charge 100% and how many such cycles? Thanks-
It’s really hard to get such information from Tesla - I tried… Maybe others will know…
I have just put my planning permission in for our heat pump. I will need another battery. That will take me to 12.8 kWh. Ours are in our loft. So we have 4x 3.2 kWh batteries as they can be lifted into the loft. As a side note, I am trying to find a way to optimise the heat pump with Agile. Agile would still seem to be better than Cosy.
All this sounds really good! It's funny that Cosy, which was designed for heat pump users is not cutting it against other tariffs!
In the USA at least, if you get a Cybertruck and have a Powerwall and a Tesla charger, the Cybertruck can add effective additional battery capacity up to 11.5kw I think. If you don't have a Powerwall you need another item, a special Gateway (Powerwalls use a different Gateway) that will take a few seconds to 'switch' to battery from the truck if it is plugged in. We are just getting 3 Powerwall 2s installed, it was under contract before PW3 was available and it should be commissioned tomorrow!
I have a CT coming & hoping it will substitute for, or at least, supplement Powerwalls. However, bc my garage is so tight, the Pw must be mounted externally, on the car port side, which worries me about how easy battery theft would be. Thoughts?
That’s cool! 😎
You don't need a Cybertruck or Powerwall for that. I do this in the UK with a Sunsynk Hybrid inverter and a Hyundai Ioniq car. All you need is a hybrid inverter with off grid capcaity and a car with V2L (Hyundai, Kia, Leaf, VW camper, Genesis, Ford Truck...more coming)
@Gary. How about PW3 runs only using 3 phase set-up? Many households these days have only Phase wiring. So PW 3 is out.
Yeah, that's certainly an issue!