I recently picked up a sweet 2020 Giant reign e+ 3 on the used market for a bangain price. I can not afford new. It came with a 625w battery, giant did something very cool, the 750w battery from 2023 models, and upcoming 800w battery for the 2024 models will be backward compatible! Love Giant!
Then look at the parts you will need that ware out like head set or bearings and try and keep some spare in the future if you want to keep it running. When the Ten Speed stuff was going out i got some cheap as i did not need 11speed at the time and then i did go from 10 Speed bikes to 12.
Planned obsolescence, perhaps not, but poor serviceability on a bike that isn’t fully water proof, that isn’t guaranteed to be supported by the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim, a bike that I can’t buy replacement motor parts for once the warranty period has lapsed. All of that for a cool 6k - bargain :/
The latest and greatest is a game for the rich man. My wife and I spent a little over 12k on our e-bikes. We did so because we liked them and plan to keep them for a long while.The constant pounding of new new new is what you have to fight against and just keep what you have that is just fine for you at this moment. Remember this “ If it was made, then it can be fixed”. Keep up on the maintenance and your bike will always feel new to you. Don’t live in fear go ride and have fun.
2:32 "if everything was backwards compatible, they wouldn't sell anything" THE BRAINWASH ON THIS GUY... IT WORKED, THE PLAN WORKED! It only took 90 years since the first "planned obsolescence" and "creative waste" books came out but it was worth the wait!
Hmmm interesting thought but I doubt it. Not from shimano in any case. They've recently spent gazzilions on their automatic transmissions and will need to recoupe that first. If integrated gearboxes are going to happen they will be at least 5 years away.
I was literally just watching a post on the FB emtb channel of someone's Santa Cruz emtb failing - after 2 months. So when you say all innovation has happened, how about building bikes that last? This channel is only here to peddle their sponsors marketing BS. Get on the forums and just look at how many people are experiencing major failures, the awful warranty claim experiences, the fact you cant buy replacement parts outside of the warranty period. The percentage of failures should not be happening at the price point they sell these bikes - but of course you guys don't buy your bikes, so if there is an issue you have very little to worry about.
Am I a Specialized fanboy ? Well yes... But we have several Turbo models that are a few years old now with thousands of miles on them and haven't broke anything, we've replaced tires and chains etc... but that's it 😊
After 30 years of racing and flogging myself, today I hired a demo Levo and rode my locals trails. Myth busters: 1. My Strava cardio stats were not slack, for a 3hr ride, I sat in tempo for 80 mins, anaerobic for 30 mins. 2. Riding the bike correctly, utilising the cadence to deliver constant power and how the bike engaged was eye opening. 3. In 30C heat it was quite pleasant,it was only when the sun delivered 38C did it hurt, 4. Legs are fresh as, rising the analogue XC tomorrow Time to throw away the vitriol and embrace what this platform has to offer.
You can't fix the electronics (e.g. torque sensor) of that Shimano e8000 and a new one is 1000 pounds from a dealer if you want another one with a 2 year warranty.
Cost me 800 for a new e8000 installed it myself, and the motor will outlast its warranty, personally speaking i found shimano approved dealers horrendous, werent interested in putting shimano software on for me, so done it myself with STunlocker 👍
I had that exact canyon and I loved it but I now have the 2022 ON and it is amazing!! I absolutely love it + I have just upgraded to Sram T-type.... a game changer!
Still having my 2018 levo HT 27,5+ 15k kms on clock and love this bike .Learned how to fix motor which broke down around 12k kms .And now runs like new super quiet and with loads of power just couple parts were changed inside motor . Also older bikes were easier to de-restrict with old 1 Gen levo you basically just need one app (Blevo) and its ready to go also parts are available for good price online. For me way to go is rebuild kits with torque sensing motors like photon or tsdz8 . Service is easier and parts are available online. New tech is nice but it can be problem until reliability is proved in time .
After looking at emtb’s for the last 5 years whilst riding my xc hard tail . I’ve just bought a Turbo Levo. It’s awesome, such a great bike to ride. First ride out was a 19.5 miles ride on muddy sloppy terrain with a few steep climbs thrown in. Got home and still had 73% charge left in the battery. That’s plenty of range for a good day out. I’m a very happy chappy. Means at 65 I can get out and not completely knacker myself on a long ride out. Happy days 😀
I have an older trek, but it is still far more capable than I am. I still love it. And every year I have it is a year I would not have been able to ride trails without it. And the new ones are a lot more expensive than mine was!
Exactly. I do think the gen3 levo was a worthy step up from the previous generation of bikes though. Can't see things changing radically from here on out in terms of sizing but I'm sure they will conjure up something to keep selling bikes.
I dug deep and decided that I would go over budget and get the ebike I wanted, travelled miles to try the bike out and get a better idea of size, I would have walked out with the bike there and then if this 2023 bike didn't come with and old obsolete fork casting which was superceded a few years ago, for the same money I can get a much better spec with another brand but I'm a fan boy/brand loyal and I really wanted that specialized, I can't justify just shy of 6k on a bike that has got the same forks as my 2020 mtb Just to be clear, fox don't make the forks it come with anymore and it is old stock, planned obsolescence, how's about selling obsolete parts as new, that's just ripping people off
That's a very interesting subject 🤔 The stock was probably bought in the cycling boom during covid! The part its self even though it's 'older' stock seems like it is still a high performance part we imagine. There has been a lot of this going on from every brand but it's not necessarily a bad thing! It's also great for the environment as the parts are being used instead of sitting in a warehouse or being melted down/thrown away!
@@embn I get that but that new lower leg casting with the oil channel is a game changer that should be on a new bike... If the bike companies want to pass old stock on they bought a at better price then that should be reflected in the consumer price, I'm trying to buy a bike that's going to last years (normal wear and tear considered)... I used to design and build machines for measuring the accuracy of manufactured parts, I recognise the engineering leap and cannot accept buying a backwards step as new
We can’t even make a bottom bracket that doesn’t fails within 6 months, motors have the same issue, things that are going round are impossible to seal!
No they will not be obsolete so buy one today! Let’s cross that bridge when we get there. Having a heavy full power I can see going lighter. Even smaller batteries and perhaps getting two with your purchase. And “ engineers/ designers “ PLEASE understand how physics works. Most if not all bottom “strike plates” go OVER the frame and not under it sucking up any bit of water and dirt thrown that way. Why do you think roof shingles overlap one another from the top ones over bottom ones. Is just common sense. Please fix this so we don’t have to remove that cover monthly to clean it out. And if you have never removed it go take a look. 😳 So my prediction is things will get lighter, with possible less power and multiple smaller batteries and better water protection. Find a way to protect those outer bearings that cause that weird grinding noise issues and prolong use. Besides that, getting an EMTB has been the best purchase in my life! So grab yourself one and stop worrying about what’s next! Far in the future I can see belt driven gear boxes incorporated with the motor. Belt from crank to rear wheel to be clear. Now that is the future!
Motor ,electrical components fixable 🤔not a reality had Bosch motor failure on a Cube out of warranty Bosch uk didn’t want to know said motor was unrepairable needed a new replacement, try finding a reputable repairer that can actually repair a motor not just change bearings diy repairs are a no no even if you can find the parts
👍Most Emtb's are starting to get a steeper seat tube angle, which makes them more of an uphill bike, which is a shame as you lose the comfortable sitting position when riding flat, which is what you mostly cycle with your Emtb. look at the Pole Emtb with 81° seat tube angle😵💫
Emtbs are for going uphill fast and steep seat angles are for going uphill comfortably. If I wanted to ride flats and crush my balls with a slack seat tube I'd probably just go for a road bike..
@@godstrashman Ok, then you drive and I cycle to the mountains we are going to climb. I'm guessing you have a full power Emtb of about 30 kg. I have 2 Specialized levo SL, 1 Orbea Rise, 1 Specialized Enduro and 1 Specialized Epik. Hence different opinions about the seat tube angle😉
Sometimes (notice I did not provide indication of how often) "planned obsolescence" can be replaced with "compromise between price and performance". Could they make motor that will last decades? Yes. Would you be thrilled about it? Likely not, either due to performance or price.
I have a 2021 Trek Powerfly 7. I prefer a hardtail and this is perfect for me. The motor died in January. It was 1 month out of warranty with about 6000 miles. Bosch replaced the motor free of charge. They were brilliant.
I'm still not sold over the message of this video. I ride a Gen 2 Levo and I feel like in no time the support for the BROSE S MAG drive will come to an end as soon as Brose moves on to full production of their 48V systems. Given how unreliable BROSE S MAG has been over the years, I am skeptical that the even newer and improved belt will save this model from the predicament that Brose got themselves into. I'm on my 3rd motor now and I'm somewhat worried that my next motor won't even be available anymore. I mainly say "somewhat worried" because there is hope with the SRAM commitment towards adopting this model in their lineup, there might be cross compatibility in the future should regular Brose S Mag go extinct. I'm also not sure where you get those repair prices, here repair technicians charge around $600 for basic repair, excluding shipping.
The only future proof ebike will need to built on a solid foundation. There is a reason the 90% of bikes seen in most used bike shops are Hi-Tensile and Chromoly frames, steel is so much tougher, and longer lasting it can even be welded and repaired sometimes. E.g. Ferrum(US), Starling cycles(UK), Marino bike(peru). For suspension components, air springs are great for tuning, prototyping and racing, but for everything else coil-springs are many times tougher and longer lasting. The costs of suspension service is insane. Until more mfg start making them on steel frames, we may be stuck with whatever there is or a conversion. Then we get to ebike components, the biggest gains will be in battery replacement costs, so going for less power, or an oversized battery will do it. Also keeping that battery cool during use and during charging. The same pretty much goes for motor wear and tare. Another good way of keeping battery costs is going with a set up that can take a generic but high quality battery, like an em3ev
Still running and loving my Canyon Spectral On 2018 as seen in your last show of 2023 and more to the point the conditions I mainly ride in....ie the UK Winter's. My bike has only done 2300km so far and I've maintained it well. It's had all the suspension bearings replaced, head bearings, two cassettes , three derailleurs ( the worst design thing on an emtb in my opinion) and loads of chains, the Motor has been bullet proof! no issues at all....none! If I change my current bike I would be looking at a emtb with the pinion GMU, only the price is the sticking point....it needs to come down and or other manufacturers come along with their own versions. MGU's ARE! the next big change for emtb I think. Tony. Scarborough.
It’s crazy to hear that there isn’t anything around the corner when the Pinion gearbox for eMtb is right at the cusp of making breakthrough. Don’t buy ANY eMtb this year! Maybe 2025 or 2026 will be ok years to go out and buy a solid bike with belt and gearbox
I have over 4000 miles on my ebike and the only reliability issues I have had so far have all been with the bicycle components not with the electronics or motor.
Battery range is about the only critical element when comparing older E-MTB technology to the latest. I can live with slightly outdated geometry or a bit less motor power as long as I can get from A to B without running out of juice. I've just bought a 2023 Cube Stereo Hybrid with a PowerTube 750 which will last me for the next several years and perhaps beyond that. Assuming I can replace or repair anything electrical (including battery) on the bike I'm not interested in the latest tech if my current bike can do all I need it to do. I've seen lots of Bosch older generation motor/battery tech available online so I can safely assume my latest generation tech will be serviceable in several years time.
I had the same fear before buying mine. Depreciation of these bikes is huge, so they may be future proof, but reselling them will be tough. Servicing is also a bit questionable. Although possible, it is not widely available. Official dealers still reject motor repairs. I suspect at some point old motors will lack spare parts and new batteries will not fit old frames. Hopefully not. On the other hand, analog bikes pretty much reached their peak so they keep their prices well. I rode my analog bike for more than 10 years before switching to another one. I really doubt that the emtb will last that long. As a conclusion and avoidance of a doubt, buying an emtb was one of the best investments in my life, it is a whole new world. I do believe that at some point, light emtbs will kill most of the analog bikes except the lightest XC.
I was complaining in the beginning, but know I understand, this is the ebike that I have, and instead of complain I should focus on enjoying it and get the most of it. Can see too many motors being sold reconditioned and in perfect order, places that rebuild them, so, why worry. Let's enjoy what we got.
If the bike was fun Wien you bougt it it`s still fun today, just pickt up a Giant Trance e+ 80 nm. 625 wh. And rode 60 km. Whit 28 km trail/singletrack what Moore you need
I cant afford 1, thats where I am with my emtb. If something “obsolete” 5 years ago brings the cost from $8000 to $800 and it still is an ebike well give me the obsolete bike any day, it’s still a bike. I’ll still take a department store bike over a bike shop bike if its affordable and still gives me the same level of fun, its just a bike afterall. I just upgraded a 8 yr old computer with 1 released 2 years ago because it was cheaper and does the same thing as a more expensive computer just released 3 months ago.
Manufacturers could do more to improve backward compatibility, true. However, there are many components on E MTBs (or any MTB) that can be swapped out during its lifespan. Our Rocky Mountain powerplay is now 6 yrs old with thousands of kilometres and an embarrassing number crashes. So far we replaced the motor, tensioner etc, converted bike to a mullet w/Zeb fork, replaced various drive chain parts etc and the bike still kicks a$$. Don't even want a new one
Have a 2019 alloy Levo that I bumped up from 500 Wh to 700 Wh battery after 2ish years of hard riding, which was awesome. Will I be able to get a new lighter 1000+ Wh solid state battery to fit when available?
All of the parts of a bicycle, and motor, have already spent decades being optimized. I'm sure people will still manage to find ways to improve them, but I'm not expecting any huge advances in that regard anytime soon. Battery tech, however, could improve dramatically. There are a lot of better options, and it's only a matter of time until they start getting applied to e-bikes as well, but right now other industries are getting priority and lithium is the only option for bikes. The only part of your bike that might get phased out in the next 5-10 years, is the battery, and if you ride a lot, it will be near the end of its life by then anyway. And if not? Then you can still upgrade anyway, and sell your old battery. Rechargeable batteries aren't going to become worthless anytime soon. Even if we come out with something that is safer with higher energy density and faster charge rate and longer lifetime, your old battery that's down to 85% capacity is still useful to anyone with a solar setup that just needs batteries to store power and doesn't care about energy density because the batteries aren't going anywhere and their weight is irrelevant. For a home solar setup, all that matters is cost effectiveness of the battery.
i have a 2021 levo (second gen?) with the 2.1 motor and you say things are upgradeable and repairable. if say my motor goes and i upgrade to the 2.2 with the software/display from the 2.1 be compatible with the 2.2 or will that all need to be changed too? like your friend i still love my old levo vs the new ones because its still a 29er front and rear.
If that is something that you want to do then the best place to talk to is your local Specialized dealer, they'd be more than happy to go through the steps of the upgrade process!
I still think standards such as motor and battery fixing mounts should be backwards compatible either within brand or industry wide. It’s all well and good someone without money concerns saying “if things didn’t change we wouldn’t have progress”. You can take a 1995 steel hardtail and fit modern group sets to it giving them life over decades. Why can’t e-bikes do the same for replacing old motors and batteries for new?! By not doing so, it also diminishes the secondhand sale value for the owner. Which could potentially help find their new one.
There has been a movement to make the motors smaller and lighter (even in the full fat eBikes). This could be the main reason for the motor bolt placement being different as the motor has to blend seamlessly with the frame for the structure.
One point I think they missed is that companies make a small changes to their bikes that are insignificant/unimportant in the real-world. All they need to do is make the slightest change and then add the version 2, 3, 4 or whatever to raise the price. This is marketing hype at its worst, which is typically bad for the consumer.
The worst evolution in mountain biking in my humble opinion is the mullet. I would have bought a Turbo Levo but since you can only get it in a mullet configuration. I went instead with the Marlin+ 8 and I was able to get it in 27.5 because I ride a small. 🤷🏻♂️
The vast majority of e-bikes don’t last 5 years. I’ve had a Kenevo SL for two years and I am on third motor and second frame… and amongst all of my riding buddies who have emtbs, the story is pretty much the same.
When it comes down to it, there is a significant part of the biking community that doesn't keep their bikes for more than three years. And biking has had a horrible track record over the past 20 years with 'new standards', So not much different than biking now.
Will there ever be electric Gravels with Shimano Autoshift? Or are there any now? I looked up two fresh 2024 electric gravels with big battery and powerful motor for us fat riders, one is Giant Revolt E+, which is built around MTB Linkglide and Deore XT components and one less known ebike builder Rock Machine eGravelride 700 which is built around GRX Components, and they both have EP6 motors but both are not compatible with Autoshift, because of one or two components they choosed are not compatible with it. It seems to me like noone is up for the challenge to build it first. Giant states that his brand new 2024 Revolt E+ bike has compatible motor, but not whole platform "SyncDrive Pro, 85Nm, powered by Shimano EP600 *please note Shimano's AutoShift & FreeShift technologies are not currently compatible with this platform". Does someone actually know at least one gravel electric bike that already has autoshift? Does some manufacturer plan to build it this year?
That’s the thing about bikes they lose their value super fast & a $10 thousand bike a year later is not even worth half of the original price needless to say they are a terrible investment & a bike 2 or 3 years old is pretty much out of date I think bike companies purposely hold back technology just to sell the new models with some kind of new feature to justify the price over an older model how many times have you bought a high end frame or bike & the next year they change something on the frame & now you have the model that doesn’t have the latest features or technology.
I would like to see a universal motor standard - any motor fitting into any bike. I know that the industry fears this (it would be VERY easy to do, though) AT THE VERY LEAST keep the form-factor within the brand. Let us upgrade from our Shimano EP 8 to an EP 10 in three years. It's no loss for Shimano and a HUGE service to the clients
I would totally agree with a standard mounting system thereby allowing you to update to the latest motor spec without replacing the whole bike should you choose to do so. Imagine the confusion if each bike manufacturer had their own fitment standard for forks or wheels.
Physical standardisation is the easy bit, but unless you also standardise all the electronics you'd still have to replace almost everything else linked to the motor.
@@weiran well - they all work on 36V and the batteries are made of clusters of 1.5V AA cells. "Electronics" are basically integrated into the motor. See how it works at Shimano: You get a choice ofe different displays at different price-points. The bike manufacturer decides what display will be screwed on the bars. You CAN very easily upgrade that part yourself (if you feel the need to do so). There isn't a lot of complicated black-box magic going on. And even if so: then sell me the new motor with the new display unit. I need to buy a new shifter when I change my cassette and derailer from A to B, so I will accept that when buying a new motor, too
@@weiran I would be happy to change all of the components to achieve this, we do it now if we change drive trains from SRAM to Shimano or cable op to electronic shifting for example.
I'm finding this. Why wasn't this addressed in the article. This is the type of thing stopping people buying e bikes, not twaddle about head angle degrees and chainstay length.
Seems that the Bosch and Brose (motors used with specialized eebs) seem to be the most 'repairable' with replacement parts - shimano repairs seem to be cloistered behind the big blue door with a 'do not enter' sign posted (which is a shame because the EP800/801 motors are awesome to pedal).........this 'right to repair' issue seems to be the 1000lb gorilla lurking behind all the amazing tech, as we full well know, everything eventually needs to be given the once-over freshening. I thing Steve and EMBN just talking about this without scratching the surface deeper is about all that can be expected as they do have to pay the bills too - can't pissoff the makers too much - I can respect that.@@darrenrobertshaw8030
I think every emtb review should say whether the motor is serviceable for refreshing/rebuilding, or not. The horror stories on serviceability is why there’s so much market hesitation. This video barely broaches the subject, and many here would like to see some investigation into just how serviceable the various brand of motors are. Why the taboo on this?
I think the motor manufacturers want to make sure all repairs go thru their service centers - it's part of the lifecycle ROI on these things. Giving that piece of the pie up won't happen until legislation requires it, much like the 'right to repair' legislations that have taken root in other realms of devices to address this very concern. This is one area where 'governmental interference in capitalism' has a quantifiable positive benefit to the consumer. In the meantime, treat your motor as a consumable, much like a battery (and don't ever get a jetwash near your motor if you know what's good for you)
My Giant 2017 dirt-e still rides like the day I bought it, yes it only got a 500wh battery and the geometry is out of date but it still puts the biggest smile on my face in the woods, and that’s more important to me, love it.
I had a Bosch unit changed 2yrs ago on a 2020 trek, the new motor did 200 miles and just stopped Bosch said the warranty was on the original bike not the new motor so they offered me a replacement for 450 which I had to buy
I'm on my 5th Gen 2 (2019 model year purchased April 2020) that I had to buy because Bosch wouldn't extend the warranty. I did get 11,000 km out of the original but the next 3 were pathetic
Please do the video again, without the consumerism („obsolete“,“geometry“), but just about maintenance. You get chains, casettes etc. for a 80s/90s era bike for an age-adequate price. Lets see what maintaining an Shimano EP8 or Bosch 4th-Gen motor over 20 years costs. I have less worries about the big brands, but the small ones (Fazua, TQ, …) supplying parts or publishing parts schemas.
Battery universal compatibility would be useful. I build my own ebikes to be able to use the same batteries on various bikes (commuter, trail bike, wife and son's ebikes), as well as take extra batteries for longer rides. $800AUD for each battery gets expensive when needing to buy different batteries for each bike. As well as replacing batteries after about 5yrs
@@embn , bolt on hub drives, some with torque sensor bottom brackets. Currently building a hard tail with CYC Photon mid drive. They all use the same 48v battery mounts. If I was a bike brand, I would design bikes that enable using the same battery across riding disciplines (e.g, hard tail, commuter, down hill etc). Cheaper than other brands, entices customers to buy more bikes, and build a more loyal customer. The alternative is to upset customers when they find they have a number of ebikes they have to replace batteries for, as they can't swap batteries between bikes.
"if everything was backwards compatible, they wouldn't sell anything, and then we'll never get progress" What an absurd thing to say. I can't believe someone actually wrote that in your script. Try telling the rest of the bike industry that their industry standards are holding back "progress"... Try telling that to the BSA bottom bracket shell that allows you to pick between hundreds of different cranksets for your frameset.
BSA bottom brackets are a great standard and you're totally right about the backwards compatibility in that sense! But Ady is totally right, progression is moving forward in technology. If we limit ourselves to previous standards we will never know if a different shape, size, or style will work better!
@@embn Just take a minute and think about what the mtb world would be like if we didn't have standardised handlebar thickness like 30.8mm and 25.4mm and each new mtb only fit handlebars supplied by the OEM, and even then only for 3 years before they moved onto a different spec. You take the industry standards we have for granted and instead of championing for less you should be championing for more.
That is a great point! But all new standards are made from outliers that have worked. The thicker 31.8mm handlebars offered a stiffer feeling over the older 24.5mm standard, and now we have a new standard which is 35mm as it's even stiffer. None of these is backwards compatible with the older-sized stems, but we would never know if we didn't try new sizes 📏 It's unfortunate that some things require the frame to change but that's the price that we have to pay for progress 👎
ZERO mention of the elephant in the room, THE BATTERY! The reason people don’t want e-car is that the battery degrades and it cost more than the car to replace. For the eMTB the lack of compatibility with newer models means that when the battery is dead so is the bike!
Consumers need the right to repair their own e bikes, batteries and motors or motor repair kits need to be made available to the public and not being tied to a specific dealer for these repairs. Just imagine if car dealerships were allowed to do this, it’s Scandalous!
I'm hoping that we get up at least 20mph if not a little more and the drag when you go over the the pedal assist that is about 15mph at the moment... I find my self going over this limit even on the flat and when it drags it's a right old pain to be sure
I am running A 2019 Levo Hardtail .And as I have Always just rode local Tails and bridleways . In Suffolk It seems all I need . So repair and fix seems the way to go ... I only started with EMTBs after the age of 60ty and it does a great job of helping me do 30 mile plus loop rides
ETMB obsolescence. Frankly, the segment should be focused on consumer retention rather than hooking new ones. We could be fast approaching that tipping point. The only way to do this is full serviceability, accessible parts, and an aftermarket solution for upgrading to keep old motors and batteries relevant. How many people are riding around on last gen bikes? ALOT. A hell of a lot more than new bikes. As the years are now adding up, what happens when they start to fail. The consumer is faced with limited choices. Buy a new bike and basically throw the other one in the trash and recycle the battery. Or buy an enduro frame set, build the frame with the broken emtb parts, post it as an entire bike for sale, and ride it whilst they wait for the sale. We are talking about a realistic consumer base. Only for some or, worst case, most consumers becoming accustomed to the ole mtb again. Some will feel resentment. Some feeling bamboozled. They WILL not invest again. Depending on this upcoming number of consumers, the EMTB sector itself could become obsolete. Fads come and go in this industry. Very slippery slope to "play" on.
I have a 2019 YT Decoy. I still love riding it and it is still relevant today. I did pick up a 700wh battery from YT and do have to give much credit to YT for making a bigger battery that is compatible with a 5 year old bike. That alone makes me want to keep the bike for another 5 years. Regarding reliability, the shimano motor did give up after 7000 miles. Unfortunately in the USA there are no repair centers. I had to buy a new motor.
If you had to buy a new Motor for a car or motorbike if the motor stopped for any reason then you couldn't afford that so why do you have to for an emtb
One major problem with the repair of motors as a cost effective solution - it does not seem that Shimano motors can be repaired at all in the UK if it is an electrical/electronic issue. I have had 4 Shimano motor failures in 5 years - all electrical and unrepairable. None have lasted 2 years and I have had to pay a lot for replacements as the 2 year warranty only covers the original motor or a purchased replacement
Agreed. I have a 21/22 Orbea Rise, and I love it, but I will not even consider a swap until the MGB units have bedded in. As for the durability, I trashed my 1st derailleur in over 13 years of off-road cycling last December (climbing with enough speed to flick up sticks, something I struggle to do on an MTB). Highly unlikely to have happened with an MGU.
You are always going to get the folks that need the latest and great thing. I bought a new 2yrs old model when I came aboard the emtb world in 2023 and I've not been disappointed. Folks will buy what makes them happy. For me, I'll buy and hopefully have enough money left to enjoy. Some buy and have no money left to enjoy.
@@embn I bought a 2021 Giant Trance E+ 2 29er Pro. I've been places on it I'd never go without it. I've ridden it up accents and down decents I'd struggle to walk. Longest ride so far has been 72mls, albeit a lot of non assisted pedalling on the easy stuff to keep the assist for the climbs. I'm not saying it's the best bike, I can't as its the only one I've owned but it certainly seems to suit me very well. It's like a mountain goat.
I sometimes look at the latest bikes and wish I had an internal battery or that it was bigger...but then I remember I got my bike for £1000 less than the comparible current bikes with larger batteries! If it had cost £4000 at that time I would not have been willing to pay it. The yamaha system has proven to be very reliable. Once the mileage gets a big higher I will send it in to be regreased as that's a known service requirement for this motor.
Just ask yourself the question if your bike works fine and you are satisfied with the battery range then why spend thousands on another bike which will give you only marginal gains? If you can get 30 plus miles out of an older generation battery then that would be enough for me.
@@MadLFC yeh the only thing that I don't like about my current bike is that a 500wh battery does limit which power modes you can run on a longer ride. It would be nice to make more use of the motor's full capability instead of sitting down in eco mode... but I guess I can save that fun for shorter rides.
I've had my Haibike Nduro Full7 for six years. I keep looking at new bikes but keep coming back to the fact that it still works and does everything I ask of it. I have been tempted by lighter bikes (for lifting over gates!) but the cost is prohibitive.
I purchased a top of the range at the time Haibike in 2012 complete with a Bosch motor and puny 250 w battery. I swear that thing aged in Dog years! Three years later in terms of technology I felt like I was riding a penny farthing! I sold it and lost my shirt on it. I now have an E converted mountain bike which does exactly the same job, but is actually faster, private roads yada yada 😉You can remove the kit and upgrade as stuff wears or new comes out or fix it onto a completely new bike. You’re not dropping £5K + each time you want to upgrade. I know it’s fashionable to look down on converted bikes and I get that if you are riding the big stuff, then you need the best, but how many people in reality are doing that compared to how many more people would buy e-bikes if the components were swappable and interchangeable bringing the price into reach of your average person. I love how people bang on about riding E bikes as if it is saving the planet. But what about all the obsolete crap that is going in the ground 🤷🏻♂️
Truly a nonsense argument that backwards compatability is wrong.... in the bicycle industry. That's what has kept cycling accessible for so many people. NONE of the current bicycles are cheap enough for your average consumer. If bb's and steering tubes werent standardized most people would be screwed. Imagine if everything on an ebike was proprietary. Motorcycles would reign supreme because even they're still homogeneous. No backwards compatability means support for a motor determines the lifespan of the frame and that's unacceptable.
I recently picked up my first e-mtb as a used unit for half the price of new. It was literally a brand new bike that just never sold, and so, became available from another retailer at a much reduced price. Yes, it’s a 22’ and we’re in 24, but the tech is just as good as the newer stuff. In my opinion, the average consumer will only own one of these bikes and will have just as much fun and exercise on any year emtb. The bike is still upgradable as far as components go, and as you mentioned in the video, the motor can be rebuilt to new standards for a reasonable cost. Seems like a win win to me.
The next evolution will be lighter and cheaper, bringing the cost down. The next BIG step will be 'finally' gear-box integration. Small light motor, no cassette, lighter wheels and better suspension handling. And since there is an e-boost, no issue with any drag in the gearbox (which there isn't much any more). Plus, with electronic shifting, no need for that 'double cable for a gearbox. Full shifting, up and down, under load. Low center of gravity. Just need the overall system a couple of pounds lighter.
This goes on with dirtbikes, guys HAVE to have the latest 13K dirtbike, and their frikken going trailriding. Trailriding, a 10 year old bike can still do way more than is asked of it by most riders. Part of this is impressing the other guys in the car park with "the latest thing". Its an expensive way to go have fun. The simple factor of "Is it fun to ride, does it work?" Somehow gets left behind and shiny and new becomes the end all.
Next time do at least a bit of research instead of telling a lot of industry driven nonsens. UIt's appparnet you don't have ridden an ebike for a long time and certainly not one you paid yourself. A realiable 12 speed steel cassette cost say 80 EURO or less. With hot wax it will outlast most motors. Production cost o f a motor is maybe 200 EUR.
You say that most of the evolution has happened. I disagree. I think the combined motor/automatic gearbox will be a game-changer for most riders when it hits the mass market. If it's coupled with belt drive it could produce the low maintenance and high reliability product that many people crave.
Having the latest and greatest makes sense if you are competing at the elite racing levels. If anyone wants enhanced performance riding any bike of any nature, here is the secret. Put in the hours, work on your skills and take care of your body by eating healthy, sleeping well and possibly dropping a few pounds of weight.
I 100% agree you don't need to by a new ebike just DIY upgrade your existing bike. I looked at the latest spec bikes and there is vary little difference with the modern ones.
![[UA] Eternal Fire проти NAVI | EPL Season 20 Malta](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/chvlsDygrZM/mqdefault.jpg)
I recently picked up a sweet 2020 Giant reign e+ 3 on the used market for a bangain price. I can not afford new. It came with a 625w battery, giant did something very cool, the 750w battery from 2023 models, and upcoming 800w battery for the 2024 models will be backward compatible! Love Giant!
Then look at the parts you will need that ware out like head set or bearings and try and keep some spare in the future if you want to keep it running.
When the Ten Speed stuff was going out i got some cheap as i did not need 11speed at the time and then i did go from 10 Speed bikes to 12.
Planned obsolescence, perhaps not, but poor serviceability on a bike that isn’t fully water proof, that isn’t guaranteed to be supported by the manufacturer in the event of a warranty claim, a bike that I can’t buy replacement motor parts for once the warranty period has lapsed. All of that for a cool 6k - bargain :/
The latest and greatest is a game for the rich man. My wife and I spent a little over 12k on our e-bikes. We did so because we liked them and plan to keep them for a long while.The constant pounding of new new new is what you have to fight against and just keep what you have that is just fine for you at this moment. Remember this “ If it was made, then it can be fixed”. Keep up on the maintenance and your bike will always feel new to you. Don’t live in fear go ride and have fun.
Yup, too right
2:32 "if everything was backwards compatible, they wouldn't sell anything"
THE BRAINWASH ON THIS GUY... IT WORKED, THE PLAN WORKED! It only took 90 years since the first "planned obsolescence" and "creative waste" books came out but it was worth the wait!
The Guy doesnt know about spd pedals
Gen2 Levo was extremely fun bike, I also appreciated the 51 offset.
Well played gents !!! still rocking my 2017 Haibike's OG battery ... Waiting for gearbox motor combo as that is the next game changer
Hmmm interesting thought but I doubt it. Not from shimano in any case. They've recently spent gazzilions on their automatic transmissions and will need to recoupe that first. If integrated gearboxes are going to happen they will be at least 5 years away.
I was literally just watching a post on the FB emtb channel of someone's Santa Cruz emtb failing - after 2 months. So when you say all innovation has happened, how about building bikes that last? This channel is only here to peddle their sponsors marketing BS. Get on the forums and just look at how many people are experiencing major failures, the awful warranty claim experiences, the fact you cant buy replacement parts outside of the warranty period. The percentage of failures should not be happening at the price point they sell these bikes - but of course you guys don't buy your bikes, so if there is an issue you have very little to worry about.
Am I a Specialized fanboy ? Well yes... But we have several Turbo models that are a few years old now with thousands of miles on them and haven't broke anything, we've replaced tires and chains etc... but that's it 😊
Great to hear Jimbo
After 30 years of racing and flogging myself, today I hired a demo Levo and rode my locals trails.
Myth busters:
1. My Strava cardio stats were not slack, for a 3hr ride, I sat in tempo for 80 mins, anaerobic for 30 mins.
2. Riding the bike correctly, utilising the cadence to deliver constant power and how the bike engaged was eye opening.
3. In 30C heat it was quite pleasant,it was only when the sun delivered 38C did it hurt,
4. Legs are fresh as, rising the analogue XC tomorrow
Time to throw away the vitriol and embrace what this platform has to offer.
You can't fix the electronics (e.g. torque sensor) of that Shimano e8000 and a new one is 1000 pounds from a dealer if you want another one with a 2 year warranty.
They aren't exactly rewinding coils or anything useful. A bearing change and cog swap is the least of my worries
Cost me 800 for a new e8000 installed it myself, and the motor will outlast its warranty, personally speaking i found shimano approved dealers horrendous, werent interested in putting shimano software on for me, so done it myself with STunlocker 👍
Totally agree - my comment posted above on same basis - where is the repair/recycle/reuse ethic in EMTB motors
I had that exact canyon and I loved it but I now have the 2022 ON and it is amazing!! I absolutely love it + I have just upgraded to Sram T-type.... a game changer!
Still having my 2018 levo HT 27,5+ 15k kms on clock and love this bike .Learned how to fix motor which broke down around 12k kms .And now runs like new super quiet and with loads of power just couple parts were changed inside motor . Also older bikes were easier to de-restrict with old 1 Gen levo you basically just need one app (Blevo) and its ready to go also parts are available for good price online. For me way to go is rebuild kits with torque sensing motors like photon or tsdz8 . Service is easier and parts are available online. New tech is nice but it can be problem until reliability is proved in time .
After looking at emtb’s for the last 5 years whilst riding my xc hard tail .
I’ve just bought a Turbo Levo.
It’s awesome, such a great bike to ride. First ride out was a 19.5 miles ride on muddy sloppy terrain with a few steep climbs thrown in. Got home and still had 73% charge left in the battery.
That’s plenty of range for a good day out.
I’m a very happy chappy.
Means at 65 I can get out and not completely knacker myself on a long ride out.
Happy days 😀
Good on you Ian!
I have an older trek, but it is still far more capable than I am. I still love it. And every year I have it is a year I would not have been able to ride trails without it. And the new ones are a lot more expensive than mine was!
I'm still riding a 1st gen turbo levo still a great bike.
So am I! I've upgraded the drive train and brakes, but my 2017 bike is just everything I need.
Super topic! Just ask yourself one question: do I have fun with the bike I ride today? Yes? Why not in a few years?
Exactly. I do think the gen3 levo was a worthy step up from the previous generation of bikes though. Can't see things changing radically from here on out in terms of sizing but I'm sure they will conjure up something to keep selling bikes.
I agree. My 2018 haibike is still shredding with a new yamaha motor
I dug deep and decided that I would go over budget and get the ebike I wanted, travelled miles to try the bike out and get a better idea of size, I would have walked out with the bike there and then if this 2023 bike didn't come with and old obsolete fork casting which was superceded a few years ago, for the same money I can get a much better spec with another brand but I'm a fan boy/brand loyal and I really wanted that specialized, I can't justify just shy of 6k on a bike that has got the same forks as my 2020 mtb
Just to be clear, fox don't make the forks it come with anymore and it is old stock, planned obsolescence, how's about selling obsolete parts as new, that's just ripping people off
That's a very interesting subject 🤔 The stock was probably bought in the cycling boom during covid! The part its self even though it's 'older' stock seems like it is still a high performance part we imagine. There has been a lot of this going on from every brand but it's not necessarily a bad thing! It's also great for the environment as the parts are being used instead of sitting in a warehouse or being melted down/thrown away!
@@embn I get that but that new lower leg casting with the oil channel is a game changer that should be on a new bike... If the bike companies want to pass old stock on they bought a at better price then that should be reflected in the consumer price, I'm trying to buy a bike that's going to last years (normal wear and tear considered)... I used to design and build machines for measuring the accuracy of manufactured parts, I recognise the engineering leap and cannot accept buying a backwards step as new
Still riding Wyhte RS 180 but waiting for belt driven geared motor , Pinion seem to be leading the way with this !
motors need a better waterproofing design for the UK
We can’t even make a bottom bracket that doesn’t fails within 6 months, motors have the same issue, things that are going round are impossible to seal!
No they will not be obsolete so buy one today!
Let’s cross that bridge when we get there.
Having a heavy full power I can see going lighter. Even smaller batteries and perhaps getting two with your purchase.
And “ engineers/ designers “ PLEASE understand how physics works. Most if not all bottom “strike plates” go OVER the frame and not under it sucking up any bit of water and dirt thrown that way. Why do you think roof shingles overlap one another from the top ones over bottom ones. Is just common sense. Please fix this so we don’t have to remove that cover monthly to clean it out. And if you have never removed it go take a look. 😳
So my prediction is things will get lighter, with possible less power and multiple smaller batteries and better water protection. Find a way to protect those outer bearings that cause that weird grinding noise issues and prolong use. Besides that, getting an EMTB has been the best purchase in my life!
So grab yourself one and stop worrying about what’s next!
Far in the future I can see belt driven gear boxes incorporated with the motor. Belt from crank to rear wheel to be clear. Now that is the future!
Motor ,electrical components fixable 🤔not a reality had Bosch motor failure on a Cube out of warranty Bosch uk didn’t want to know said motor was unrepairable needed a new replacement, try finding a reputable repairer that can actually repair a motor not just change bearings diy repairs are a no no even if you can find the parts
👍Most Emtb's are starting to get a steeper seat tube angle, which makes them more of an uphill bike, which is a shame as you lose the comfortable sitting position when riding flat, which is what you mostly cycle with your Emtb.
look at the Pole Emtb with 81° seat tube angle😵💫
Emtbs are for going uphill fast and steep seat angles are for going uphill comfortably. If I wanted to ride flats and crush my balls with a slack seat tube I'd probably just go for a road bike..
@@godstrashman
Ok, then you drive and I cycle to the mountains we are going to climb.
I'm guessing you have a full power Emtb of about 30 kg.
I have 2 Specialized levo SL, 1 Orbea Rise, 1 Specialized Enduro and 1 Specialized Epik.
Hence different opinions about the seat tube angle😉
Sometimes (notice I did not provide indication of how often) "planned obsolescence" can be replaced with "compromise between price and performance". Could they make motor that will last decades? Yes. Would you be thrilled about it? Likely not, either due to performance or price.
still loving my gen 2 levo!
Aftermarket will fill the void . You will have new bosch copies , batteries to suite .
I have a 2021 Trek Powerfly 7. I prefer a hardtail and this is perfect for me. The motor died in January. It was 1 month out of warranty with about 6000 miles. Bosch replaced the motor free of charge. They were brilliant.
That's great that you were able to get sorted out!
I'm still not sold over the message of this video. I ride a Gen 2 Levo and I feel like in no time the support for the BROSE S MAG drive will come to an end as soon as Brose moves on to full production of their 48V systems. Given how unreliable BROSE S MAG has been over the years, I am skeptical that the even newer and improved belt will save this model from the predicament that Brose got themselves into. I'm on my 3rd motor now and I'm somewhat worried that my next motor won't even be available anymore. I mainly say "somewhat worried" because there is hope with the SRAM commitment towards adopting this model in their lineup, there might be cross compatibility in the future should regular Brose S Mag go extinct. I'm also not sure where you get those repair prices, here repair technicians charge around $600 for basic repair, excluding shipping.
The only future proof ebike will need to built on a solid foundation. There is a reason the 90% of bikes seen in most used bike shops are Hi-Tensile and Chromoly frames, steel is so much tougher, and longer lasting it can even be welded and repaired sometimes. E.g. Ferrum(US), Starling cycles(UK), Marino bike(peru). For suspension components, air springs are great for tuning, prototyping and racing, but for everything else coil-springs are many times tougher and longer lasting. The costs of suspension service is insane.
Until more mfg start making them on steel frames, we may be stuck with whatever there is or a conversion. Then we get to ebike components, the biggest gains will be in battery replacement costs, so going for less power, or an oversized battery will do it. Also keeping that battery cool during use and during charging. The same pretty much goes for motor wear and tare. Another good way of keeping battery costs is going with a set up that can take a generic but high quality battery, like an em3ev
never had a ebike for more than 6 months. wont recomend but atleast you stay on top of tech
Still running and loving my Canyon Spectral On 2018 as seen in your last show of 2023 and more to the point the conditions I mainly ride in....ie the UK Winter's. My bike has only done 2300km so far and I've maintained it well. It's had all the suspension bearings replaced, head bearings, two cassettes , three derailleurs ( the worst design thing on an emtb in my opinion) and loads of chains, the Motor has been bullet proof! no issues at all....none!
If I change my current bike I would be looking at a emtb with the pinion GMU, only the price is the sticking point....it needs to come down and or other manufacturers come along with their own versions.
MGU's ARE! the next big change for emtb I think.
Tony.
Scarborough.
Soooo, Levo gen 2 is like 21 kg with a 700wh battery. Full assist. I'm not an owner of the big S but its quite impressive.
It’s crazy to hear that there isn’t anything around the corner when the Pinion gearbox for eMtb is right at the cusp of making breakthrough.
Don’t buy ANY eMtb this year! Maybe 2025 or 2026 will be ok years to go out and buy a solid bike with belt and gearbox
Steve - that looks like one of my dog walks at Moors Valley ?
I have over 4000 miles on my ebike and the only reliability issues I have had so far have all been with the bicycle components not with the electronics or motor.
Great video, thanks!
Battery range is about the only critical element when comparing older E-MTB technology to the latest. I can live with slightly outdated geometry or a bit less motor power as long as I can get from A to B without running out of juice. I've just bought a 2023 Cube Stereo Hybrid with a PowerTube 750 which will last me for the next several years and perhaps beyond that.
Assuming I can replace or repair anything electrical (including battery) on the bike I'm not interested in the latest tech if my current bike can do all I need it to do. I've seen lots of Bosch older generation motor/battery tech available online so I can safely assume my latest generation tech will be serviceable in several years time.
I had the same fear before buying mine. Depreciation of these bikes is huge, so they may be future proof, but reselling them will be tough. Servicing is also a bit questionable. Although possible, it is not widely available. Official dealers still reject motor repairs. I suspect at some point old motors will lack spare parts and new batteries will not fit old frames. Hopefully not. On the other hand, analog bikes pretty much reached their peak so they keep their prices well. I rode my analog bike for more than 10 years before switching to another one. I really doubt that the emtb will last that long.
As a conclusion and avoidance of a doubt, buying an emtb was one of the best investments in my life, it is a whole new world. I do believe that at some point, light emtbs will kill most of the analog bikes except the lightest XC.
I was complaining in the beginning, but know I understand, this is the ebike that I have, and instead of complain I should focus on enjoying it and get the most of it.
Can see too many motors being sold reconditioned and in perfect order, places that rebuild them, so, why worry. Let's enjoy what we got.
If the bike was fun Wien you bougt it it`s still fun today, just pickt up a Giant Trance e+ 80 nm. 625 wh. And rode 60 km. Whit 28 km trail/singletrack what Moore you need
I cant afford 1, thats where I am with my emtb. If something “obsolete” 5 years ago brings the cost from $8000 to $800 and it still is an ebike well give me the obsolete bike any day, it’s still a bike. I’ll still take a department store bike over a bike shop bike if its affordable and still gives me the same level of fun, its just a bike afterall.
I just upgraded a 8 yr old computer with 1 released 2 years ago because it was cheaper and does the same thing as a more expensive computer just released 3 months ago.
Manufacturers could do more to improve backward compatibility, true. However, there are many components on E MTBs (or any MTB) that can be swapped out during its lifespan. Our Rocky Mountain powerplay is now 6 yrs old with thousands of kilometres and an embarrassing number crashes. So far we replaced the motor, tensioner etc, converted bike to a mullet w/Zeb fork, replaced various drive chain parts etc and the bike still kicks a$$. Don't even want a new one
Great info Cheers
Wow the spectral has come a lonnng way
Id like an ebike under 15 KG with new super battery tech and that would help with when you go pat that legal limit
Have a 2019 alloy Levo that I bumped up from 500 Wh to 700 Wh battery after 2ish years of hard riding, which was awesome. Will I be able to get a new lighter 1000+ Wh solid state battery to fit when available?
I could be worth asking Specialized if that's something they plan to do 🤘
All of the parts of a bicycle, and motor, have already spent decades being optimized. I'm sure people will still manage to find ways to improve them, but I'm not expecting any huge advances in that regard anytime soon.
Battery tech, however, could improve dramatically. There are a lot of better options, and it's only a matter of time until they start getting applied to e-bikes as well, but right now other industries are getting priority and lithium is the only option for bikes.
The only part of your bike that might get phased out in the next 5-10 years, is the battery, and if you ride a lot, it will be near the end of its life by then anyway. And if not? Then you can still upgrade anyway, and sell your old battery. Rechargeable batteries aren't going to become worthless anytime soon. Even if we come out with something that is safer with higher energy density and faster charge rate and longer lifetime, your old battery that's down to 85% capacity is still useful to anyone with a solar setup that just needs batteries to store power and doesn't care about energy density because the batteries aren't going anywhere and their weight is irrelevant. For a home solar setup, all that matters is cost effectiveness of the battery.
i have a 2021 levo (second gen?) with the 2.1 motor and you say things are upgradeable and repairable. if say my motor goes and i upgrade to the 2.2 with the software/display from the 2.1 be compatible with the 2.2 or will that all need to be changed too? like your friend i still love my old levo vs the new ones because its still a 29er front and rear.
If that is something that you want to do then the best place to talk to is your local Specialized dealer, they'd be more than happy to go through the steps of the upgrade process!
I still think standards such as motor and battery fixing mounts should be backwards compatible either within brand or industry wide.
It’s all well and good someone without money concerns saying “if things didn’t change we wouldn’t have progress”.
You can take a 1995 steel hardtail and fit modern group sets to it giving them life over decades. Why can’t e-bikes do the same for replacing old motors and batteries for new?!
By not doing so, it also diminishes the secondhand sale value for the owner. Which could potentially help find their new one.
The only thing I see in the future is lighter weight, 700watt or more batteries and full power smaller motors! Other then that nothing to worry about
They should at the very least make the motor bottles backward compatible so that you can swap newer motors on it.
There has been a movement to make the motors smaller and lighter (even in the full fat eBikes). This could be the main reason for the motor bolt placement being different as the motor has to blend seamlessly with the frame for the structure.
By the way Polini motors can be swapped with new ones
One point I think they missed is that companies make a small changes to their bikes that are insignificant/unimportant in the real-world. All they need to do is make the slightest change and then add the version 2, 3, 4 or whatever to raise the price. This is marketing hype at its worst, which is typically bad for the consumer.
Ever heard about the law of headlines?
The worst evolution in mountain biking in my humble opinion is the mullet. I would have bought a Turbo Levo but since you can only get it in a mullet configuration. I went instead with the Marlin+ 8 and I was able to get it in 27.5 because I ride a small. 🤷🏻♂️
Brose riders have had their motor "fixed" probaly more times than any other brand .
The vast majority of e-bikes don’t last 5 years. I’ve had a Kenevo SL for two years and I am on third motor and second frame… and amongst all of my riding buddies who have emtbs, the story is pretty much the same.
How about battery degradation and all the motors that fail that’s lot of waste just for fun
When it comes down to it, there is a significant part of the biking community that doesn't keep their bikes for more than three years. And biking has had a horrible track record over the past 20 years with 'new standards', So not much different than biking now.
Will there ever be electric Gravels with Shimano Autoshift? Or are there any now? I looked up two fresh 2024 electric gravels with big battery and powerful motor for us fat riders, one is Giant Revolt E+, which is built around MTB Linkglide and Deore XT components and one less known ebike builder Rock Machine eGravelride 700 which is built around GRX Components, and they both have EP6 motors but both are not compatible with Autoshift, because of one or two components they choosed are not compatible with it. It seems to me like noone is up for the challenge to build it first. Giant states that his brand new 2024 Revolt E+ bike has compatible motor, but not whole platform "SyncDrive Pro, 85Nm, powered by Shimano EP600 *please note Shimano's AutoShift & FreeShift technologies are not currently compatible with this platform". Does someone actually know at least one gravel electric bike that already has autoshift? Does some manufacturer plan to build it this year?
That’s the thing about bikes they lose their value super fast & a $10 thousand bike a year later is not even worth half of the original price needless to say they are a terrible investment & a bike 2 or 3 years old is pretty much out of date I think bike companies purposely hold back technology just to sell the new models with some kind of new feature to justify the price over an older model how many times have you bought a high end frame or bike & the next year they change something on the frame & now you have the model that doesn’t have the latest features or technology.
Diy is the way, pre built is for suckers😂.
Brand emtbs are designed to be non serviceable.
Hopefully the channelsponsors will not watch this video.
Raymon full ray 30 kg 2 years old to heavy tank
I would like to see a universal motor standard - any motor fitting into any bike. I know that the industry fears this (it would be VERY easy to do, though)
AT THE VERY LEAST keep the form-factor within the brand. Let us upgrade from our Shimano EP 8 to an EP 10 in three years. It's no loss for Shimano and a HUGE service to the clients
I would totally agree with a standard mounting system thereby allowing you to update to the latest motor spec without replacing the whole bike should you choose to do so. Imagine the confusion if each bike manufacturer had their own fitment standard for forks or wheels.
Within the brand makes sense, my only thing would be whether that would limit weight/motor power/ genre options.
Physical standardisation is the easy bit, but unless you also standardise all the electronics you'd still have to replace almost everything else linked to the motor.
@@weiran well - they all work on 36V and the batteries are made of clusters of 1.5V AA cells. "Electronics" are basically integrated into the motor. See how it works at Shimano: You get a choice ofe different displays at different price-points. The bike manufacturer decides what display will be screwed on the bars. You CAN very easily upgrade that part yourself (if you feel the need to do so). There isn't a lot of complicated black-box magic going on.
And even if so: then sell me the new motor with the new display unit. I need to buy a new shifter when I change my cassette and derailer from A to B, so I will accept that when buying a new motor, too
@@weiran I would be happy to change all of the components to achieve this, we do it now if we change drive trains from SRAM to Shimano or cable op to electronic shifting for example.
Ever try getting a Shimano motor rebuilt? Seems nobody can…..This is where the worry begins
I'm finding this. Why wasn't this addressed in the article. This is the type of thing stopping people buying e bikes, not twaddle about head angle degrees and chainstay length.
Seems that the Bosch and Brose (motors used with specialized eebs) seem to be the most 'repairable' with replacement parts - shimano repairs seem to be cloistered behind the big blue door with a 'do not enter' sign posted (which is a shame because the EP800/801 motors are awesome to pedal).........this 'right to repair' issue seems to be the 1000lb gorilla lurking behind all the amazing tech, as we full well know, everything eventually needs to be given the once-over freshening. I thing Steve and EMBN just talking about this without scratching the surface deeper is about all that can be expected as they do have to pay the bills too - can't pissoff the makers too much - I can respect that.@@darrenrobertshaw8030
I think every emtb review should say whether the motor is serviceable for refreshing/rebuilding, or not. The horror stories on serviceability is why there’s so much market hesitation. This video barely broaches the subject, and many here would like to see some investigation into just how serviceable the various brand of motors are. Why the taboo on this?
Wait for the second part.....
I think the motor manufacturers want to make sure all repairs go thru their service centers - it's part of the lifecycle ROI on these things. Giving that piece of the pie up won't happen until legislation requires it, much like the 'right to repair' legislations that have taken root in other realms of devices to address this very concern. This is one area where 'governmental interference in capitalism' has a quantifiable positive benefit to the consumer. In the meantime, treat your motor as a consumable, much like a battery (and don't ever get a jetwash near your motor if you know what's good for you)
i have a 2021 Turbo Levo Comp was a 29er swapped it up to a mullet and runs like a dream.....love the Levo its a beast.
My Giant 2017 dirt-e still rides like the day I bought it, yes it only got a 500wh battery and the geometry is out of date but it still puts the biggest smile on my face in the woods, and that’s more important to me, love it.
Exactly!
I had a Bosch unit changed 2yrs ago on a 2020 trek, the new motor did 200 miles and just stopped Bosch said the warranty was on the original bike not the new motor so they offered me a replacement for 450 which I had to buy
I'm on my 5th Gen 2 (2019 model year purchased April 2020) that I had to buy because Bosch wouldn't extend the warranty.
I did get 11,000 km out of the original but the next 3 were pathetic
that's extremely unusual . bosch is known for its reliability . to have multiple failures suggest the problem is elsewhere .
Please do the video again, without the consumerism („obsolete“,“geometry“), but just about maintenance.
You get chains, casettes etc. for a 80s/90s era bike for an age-adequate price.
Lets see what maintaining an Shimano EP8 or Bosch 4th-Gen motor over 20 years costs.
I have less worries about the big brands, but the small ones (Fazua, TQ, …) supplying parts or publishing parts schemas.
Battery universal compatibility would be useful. I build my own ebikes to be able to use the same batteries on various bikes (commuter, trail bike, wife and son's ebikes), as well as take extra batteries for longer rides. $800AUD for each battery gets expensive when needing to buy different batteries for each bike. As well as replacing batteries after about 5yrs
That's great! Are you using bolt on kits for the bikes?
@@embn , bolt on hub drives, some with torque sensor bottom brackets. Currently building a hard tail with CYC Photon mid drive. They all use the same 48v battery mounts.
If I was a bike brand, I would design bikes that enable using the same battery across riding disciplines (e.g, hard tail, commuter, down hill etc). Cheaper than other brands, entices customers to buy more bikes, and build a more loyal customer. The alternative is to upset customers when they find they have a number of ebikes they have to replace batteries for, as they can't swap batteries between bikes.
Standards , Standards where are the Standards. Can't we have a Standard battery format which is interchangeable? Frame mountings?
"if everything was backwards compatible, they wouldn't sell anything, and then we'll never get progress" What an absurd thing to say. I can't believe someone actually wrote that in your script. Try telling the rest of the bike industry that their industry standards are holding back "progress"... Try telling that to the BSA bottom bracket shell that allows you to pick between hundreds of different cranksets for your frameset.
BSA bottom brackets are a great standard and you're totally right about the backwards compatibility in that sense! But Ady is totally right, progression is moving forward in technology. If we limit ourselves to previous standards we will never know if a different shape, size, or style will work better!
@@embn Just take a minute and think about what the mtb world would be like if we didn't have standardised handlebar thickness like 30.8mm and 25.4mm and each new mtb only fit handlebars supplied by the OEM, and even then only for 3 years before they moved onto a different spec. You take the industry standards we have for granted and instead of championing for less you should be championing for more.
That is a great point! But all new standards are made from outliers that have worked. The thicker 31.8mm handlebars offered a stiffer feeling over the older 24.5mm standard, and now we have a new standard which is 35mm as it's even stiffer. None of these is backwards compatible with the older-sized stems, but we would never know if we didn't try new sizes 📏 It's unfortunate that some things require the frame to change but that's the price that we have to pay for progress 👎
well.... apart of shimano motors, which no one can repair, right? only shimano will offer you a new one, just for ~1k.
ZERO mention of the elephant in the room, THE BATTERY! The reason people don’t want e-car is that the battery degrades and it cost more than the car to replace. For the eMTB the lack of compatibility with newer models means that when the battery is dead so is the bike!
Consumers need the right to repair their own e bikes, batteries and motors or motor repair kits need to be made available to the public and not being tied to a specific dealer for these repairs. Just imagine if car dealerships were allowed to do this, it’s Scandalous!
I'm hoping that we get up at least 20mph if not a little more and the drag when you go over the the pedal assist that is about 15mph at the moment... I find my self going over this limit even on the flat and when it drags it's a right old pain to be sure
I am running A 2019 Levo Hardtail .And as I have Always just rode local Tails and bridleways . In Suffolk It seems all I need . So repair and fix seems the way to go ... I only started with EMTBs after the age of 60ty and it does a great job of helping me do 30 mile plus loop rides
I’m on the verge of buying a second hand one of these. Would you buy again? Do you like the bike?
ETMB obsolescence. Frankly, the segment should be focused on consumer retention rather than hooking new ones. We could be fast approaching that tipping point.
The only way to do this is full serviceability, accessible parts, and an aftermarket solution for upgrading to keep old motors and batteries relevant. How many people are riding around on last gen bikes? ALOT. A hell of a lot more than new bikes.
As the years are now adding up, what happens when they start to fail. The consumer is faced with limited choices. Buy a new bike and basically throw the other one in the trash and recycle the battery. Or buy an enduro frame set, build the frame with the broken emtb parts, post it as an entire bike for sale, and ride it whilst they wait for the sale.
We are talking about a realistic consumer base. Only for some or, worst case, most consumers becoming accustomed to the ole mtb again. Some will feel resentment. Some feeling bamboozled. They WILL not invest again. Depending on this upcoming number of consumers, the EMTB sector itself could become obsolete. Fads come and go in this industry. Very slippery slope to "play" on.
I have a 2019 YT Decoy. I still love riding it and it is still relevant today. I did pick up a 700wh battery from YT and do have to give much credit to YT for making a bigger battery that is compatible with a 5 year old bike. That alone makes me want to keep the bike for another 5 years. Regarding reliability, the shimano motor did give up after 7000 miles. Unfortunately in the USA there are no repair centers. I had to buy a new motor.
Hmmm....we need to explore the US side of motor fixing on channel it seems
If you had to buy a new Motor for a car or motorbike if the motor stopped for any reason then you couldn't afford that so why do you have to for an emtb
Do a self conversion instead of buying ready made ebikes.
One major problem with the repair of motors as a cost effective solution - it does not seem that Shimano motors can be repaired at all in the UK if it is an electrical/electronic issue. I have had 4 Shimano motor failures in 5 years - all electrical and unrepairable. None have lasted 2 years and I have had to pay a lot for replacements as the 2 year warranty only covers the original motor or a purchased replacement
We're sorry to here that! Hopefully your latest motor will last you 🤘
@@embn I wouldn't hold my breath
Batteries degrade over time. And they are frame specific. I fear bike brands won’t sell them after a few years. Bike will be useless by then.
What's around the corner...
Combined motor/gearbox, belt drive= minimum service/wear means a Massive change??!!
Solid state batteries?
Agreed. I have a 21/22 Orbea Rise, and I love it, but I will not even consider a swap until the MGB units have bedded in. As for the durability, I trashed my 1st derailleur in over 13 years of off-road cycling last December (climbing with enough speed to flick up sticks, something I struggle to do on an MTB). Highly unlikely to have happened with an MGU.
You are always going to get the folks that need the latest and great thing. I bought a new 2yrs old model when I came aboard the emtb world in 2023 and I've not been disappointed. Folks will buy what makes them happy. For me, I'll buy and hopefully have enough money left to enjoy. Some buy and have no money left to enjoy.
That's great, sound like it was the right choice for you! 🤘 What brand and model did you go for?
@@embn I bought a 2021 Giant Trance E+ 2 29er Pro. I've been places on it I'd never go without it. I've ridden it up accents and down decents I'd struggle to walk. Longest ride so far has been 72mls, albeit a lot of non assisted pedalling on the easy stuff to keep the assist for the climbs. I'm not saying it's the best bike, I can't as its the only one I've owned but it certainly seems to suit me very well. It's like a mountain goat.
I sometimes look at the latest bikes and wish I had an internal battery or that it was bigger...but then I remember I got my bike for £1000 less than the comparible current bikes with larger batteries! If it had cost £4000 at that time I would not have been willing to pay it.
The yamaha system has proven to be very reliable. Once the mileage gets a big higher I will send it in to be regreased as that's a known service requirement for this motor.
Just ask yourself the question if your bike works fine and you are satisfied with the battery range then why spend thousands on another bike which will give you only marginal gains? If you can get 30 plus miles out of an older generation battery then that would be enough for me.
@@MadLFC yeh the only thing that I don't like about my current bike is that a 500wh battery does limit which power modes you can run on a longer ride. It would be nice to make more use of the motor's full capability instead of sitting down in eco mode... but I guess I can save that fun for shorter rides.
I've had my Haibike Nduro Full7 for six years. I keep looking at new bikes but keep coming back to the fact that it still works and does everything I ask of it. I have been tempted by lighter bikes (for lifting over gates!) but the cost is prohibitive.
I purchased a top of the range at the time Haibike in 2012 complete with a Bosch motor and puny 250 w battery. I swear that thing aged in Dog years! Three years later in terms of technology I felt like I was riding a penny farthing! I sold it and lost my shirt on it. I now have an E converted mountain bike which does exactly the same job, but is actually faster, private roads yada yada 😉You can remove the kit and upgrade as stuff wears or new comes out or fix it onto a completely new bike. You’re not dropping £5K + each time you want to upgrade. I know it’s fashionable to look down on converted bikes and I get that if you are riding the big stuff, then you need the best, but how many people in reality are doing that compared to how many more people would buy e-bikes if the components were swappable and interchangeable bringing the price into reach of your average person. I love how people bang on about riding E bikes as if it is saving the planet. But what about all the obsolete crap that is going in the ground 🤷🏻♂️
Closed protocols and the lack of user maintainability drive obsolescence.
Truly a nonsense argument that backwards compatability is wrong.... in the bicycle industry. That's what has kept cycling accessible for so many people. NONE of the current bicycles are cheap enough for your average consumer. If bb's and steering tubes werent standardized most people would be screwed. Imagine if everything on an ebike was proprietary. Motorcycles would reign supreme because even they're still homogeneous. No backwards compatability means support for a motor determines the lifespan of the frame and that's unacceptable.
I recently picked up my first e-mtb as a used unit for half the price of new. It was literally a brand new bike that just never sold, and so, became available from another retailer at a much reduced price. Yes, it’s a 22’ and we’re in 24, but the tech is just as good as the newer stuff. In my opinion, the average consumer will only own one of these bikes and will have just as much fun and exercise on any year emtb. The bike is still upgradable as far as components go, and as you mentioned in the video, the motor can be rebuilt to new standards for a reasonable cost. Seems like a win win to me.
The next evolution will be lighter and cheaper, bringing the cost down. The next BIG step will be 'finally' gear-box integration. Small light motor, no cassette, lighter wheels and better suspension handling. And since there is an e-boost, no issue with any drag in the gearbox (which there isn't much any more). Plus, with electronic shifting, no need for that 'double cable for a gearbox. Full shifting, up and down, under load. Low center of gravity. Just need the overall system a couple of pounds lighter.
This goes on with dirtbikes, guys HAVE to have the latest 13K dirtbike, and their frikken going trailriding.
Trailriding, a 10 year old bike can still do way more than is asked of it by most riders.
Part of this is impressing the other guys in the car park with "the latest thing". Its an expensive way to go have fun.
The simple factor of "Is it fun to ride, does it work?" Somehow gets left behind and shiny and new becomes the end all.
Next time do at least a bit of research instead of telling a lot of industry driven nonsens. UIt's appparnet you don't have ridden an ebike for a long time and certainly not one you paid yourself. A realiable 12 speed steel cassette cost say 80 EURO or less. With hot wax it will outlast most motors. Production cost o f a motor is maybe 200 EUR.
You say that most of the evolution has happened. I disagree. I think the combined motor/automatic gearbox will be a game-changer for most riders when it hits the mass market. If it's coupled with belt drive it could produce the low maintenance and high reliability product that many people crave.
Having the latest and greatest makes sense if you are competing at the elite racing levels.
If anyone wants enhanced performance riding any bike of any nature, here is the secret. Put in the hours, work on your skills and take care of your body by eating healthy, sleeping well and possibly dropping a few pounds of weight.
I 100% agree you don't need to by a new ebike just DIY upgrade your existing bike. I looked at the latest spec bikes and there is vary little difference with the modern ones.