George Mallory's statements about possible routes up Mount Everest
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- Опубліковано 30 лип 2023
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A review of statements made by George Mallory where he states the ridge route was impossible because any obstacles would leave a climber too winded and ultimately take up too much time. Instead, he told the expedition photographer he would take one of two routes to the summit -- neither of which involved the Second Step.
Absolutely love your Mallory content, level-headed reasoned analysis and sardonic narration style. Keep it up.
you made me look up the definition of a word today... and spot on it was!
Which word?
@@kevintomaselli6842 When you look up the definition of "sardonic", it says "See Michael Tracy's UA-cam videos.
One telling point, 1933 Brit Everest Expedition, the 4th attempt, did not try the ridge route either. Everyone knew the Second Step was a road block.
This is an important point. None of the British expeditions tried to climb the second step because they knew it was a no go. Mallory knew that the ridge route was not possible in 1924.
Excellent point
@@phomchickOk, this sounds pretty good! But, supposedly, the ice axe, was found on the modern route , " summit ridge route " 🤔
@@christopherreinsmith1401it was found east of the first step where you would pick up the traverse route. They likely traversed just under the first and cached O2 and then followed the route under the second and into the top of the couloir/zig zag area.
I'm convinced. The second step is just too difficult, plus who would want to down-climb that obstacle late in the day while utterly exhausted?
The down climbing on the descent is a good point that doesn’t get mentioned enough by those who favor the ridge route and believe they got higher than the second step for Odell’s sighting. They didn’t take huge lengths of extra rope, so descending the second step to get back to below the ice axe location would seem more dangerous/difficult than even climbing it.
It is obvious that Mallory avoided the 2nd step, reached the summit and then late in the day, descended through the couloir and traversing the North Face he took a short but incapacitating fall.
Is it indeed obvious? Please present your evidence. As much as I wish it to be true, I have seen no definitive evidence that he and Irvine reached the summit.
Man I’m so glad I discovered this channel in my current binge of Everest content (it happens every few months). This adds on the most credible layer of mystery to the mystery of Mallory and Irvine. I’m nearly convinced that they did summit and at least got closer than thought but honestly I just want this mystery solved.
Qq
The mystery, and specifically, the not knowing, is the fun part! Embrace it.
Im with you on the frequent Everest rabbit holes 😂
keep up the good work Michael. slowly but surely you are exposing the 2nd step crowd.
Thanks for your amazing, fastidious and enthralling investigation.
As always, Michael. You are thorough with your research. You always look at the facts and the evidence, not hearsay.
Excellent analysis, I don't see anyone looking at the second step and thinking it looked like an easy climb in the evening. They never attempted the second step.
Are these people saying Mallory used the ridge route simply uninformed, or are they trying to purposely mislead, and if so why?
I know Norton said Mallory “always favored the ridge.” Of course he also fraudulently changed the time of Odell’s sighting from 12:50 to 11:00 and moved it further down the mountain. Otherwise, it would seem ALL evidence points to either the zig zag route or the couloir. And traversing towards the couloir and trying to get up is what all of the other early British expeditions did..
@@josephjackson2010 I understand that, but why are so many modern day mountaineering types, trying to find out how Mallory managed the 2nd. step if he had no intention of going that route?
@@davem8836Many come from or were influenced by the 1999 expedition. That expedition had “climbing star” Conrad Anker and they planned to film him dramatically climbing the second step to see if Mallory could do it. Like how the VPK film makes less sense (Somerville wrote a biography and never mentioned lending George his camera) but a better story than summit rocks to verify an ascent, the second step makes better cinema than the routes Mallory actually talked about taking in his writings. There is also the idea that it was a more difficult route making ascent less likely, so the dubious Chinese ascent in 1960 would be the first from the North side. The permits were issued by the Chinese and books from the 1999 expedition were allowed to be published in China.
@davem8836 I'll add onto this that many of the articles/books about Mallory and Irvine's climb are just simply based on false information and that false information is spread across the internet and publications wide and thick. People tend to take these accounts of others as fact instead of conducting their own research or use critical thinking skills. Unless amateur sleuths or researchers are digging into Mallory's diary entries the assumption is that he and Irvine took the ridge route and never made any further thought about taking a different route. This is quite insulting to the intelligence of both climbers, Mallory had been scouting the mountain for years and would have been well aware of Irvine's limitations as a climber. Additionally Norton made it to within 300m of the summit using a route that avoided the second step days before the Mallory/Irvine attempt.
From Odell's sighting to Norton's assessment and Anker's dramatization of the climb there is a clear obsession to tie Mallory to the Second Step. If you repeat a lie often enough people will begin to see the lie as fact.
A question that can be answered with the rest of Tracy's videos, though the short answer is that the actual question is why does anyone use the ridge route? If you figure that out, it'll tell you who's trying to convince everyone that the way to climb this side of Everest is via the Ridge, even though it's objectively a harder route then others.
Historians are taught not to fall into the trap of interpreting past events through a current day lens. Assuming a level of integrity from those who insist on examining if Mallory could have climbed the second step, it seems they have fallen into this trap. The ridge route is the common route today therefore it would have been tried by Mallory. It seems this blindness to the evidence from Mallory’s own writings is easier to ignore than the possibility he used a route that no one has climbed since.
Brilliant.
Excellent work - thank you for your efforts. Brings a lot of clarity into the fog!
Convincing, but ... There is a testimony by Messner assessing the east-of-couloir upward route. He characterized the terrain as very difficult due to the exposed slope and unstable rocks. As he is one of few people who actually saw the place from close proximity, his testimony is not easily dismissible.
In any case, until the zigzag route is reclimbed again, any further discussion is a mere contest of opinions.
Yes, I cover this in the Rashomon effect video and give his other statements where he says it is possible -- as you say, "not easily dismissible".
As the Chinese will not permit the zig-zag to be climbed, you have a very naive view of what is going on. There are drone photos of it that will not be released that likely give a very good indication of how climbable it is.
Yes I feel this is a key leap of faith in this theory. I feel convinced Mallory took one of those routes but unconvinced that he succeeded. I feel it needs to be climbed successfully today and ideally something from 1924 is found. I accept Michael’s counter that the Chinese won’t even allow it making this path to the truth currently impossible. That of itself does not mean Mallory made it or not.
I was just reading about this expedition and the preparations that were made.
They began their trip in Tibet because China and Nepal were not allowing westerners into their countries.
That route from Tibet to Everest in the early 20th century on foot and horseback with all the gear and supplies must've been an adventure in itself
Love your work on this mystery. Im convinced 99% they made it. I hope at least someday this evidence will be accepted by enough people that the concensus will be that they "most probably" were the first to summit instead of otherwise. This wouldn't take away from Hilary and Norgay's achievement. It does justice for Malory and Irvines achievements. There is certainly a group who do not want to accept nor want others to accept that they "probably" made it. The Chinese, the Australians, the doubters who wrote books etc etc.
Used to be part of a private blog with Holzel and Poston. I suggested this route at that time. Good for you....excellent conclusion based on the hard evidence. Good luck convincing Tom Holzel, not that it matters. Someone should retrace this route looking for evidence.
Feel sorry for you having to deal with them way back then. Seemed like a bunch of internet bullies.
As someone who has never got beyond base camp and who is thus unfamiliar first hand with the high terrain, I've always innocently wondered why, if the second step was so difficult, they didn't just go round it. This video is illuminating. But my question now is - where does it leave Odell's apparent sighting of them? Do his descriptions of rock-steps tie in with one or both of the two alternative routes? Thanks.
Yes, that is explained in Last Step But One... ua-cam.com/video/QJd8Ir_H-YE/v-deo.html and the Odell video. ua-cam.com/video/2SGRCaGjZf0/v-deo.html I'll have some more stuff about Odell coming out that sort of wraps it up and Odell's story makes complete sense. There has always been more major problem with Odell's changing version, and I'll get into what I found in the archives that explains that last problem such that it is not a problem and the entire thing makes sense.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks, Michael. I shall re-watch the two links (I download and keep all your fascinating videos!) with due attention, and look forward to the new stuff. As someone else has posted, your videos do help so much in clarifying things.
Michael, loved this one! ❤️
I have listened to this video a number of times now, and I have been drawn to think much about narrative control; i.e. the determination to ensure that a particular version of events be held up as “truth”, even in the face of body of evidence that is looming like an outsize yeti over the web of interconnected untruths that are supporting the officially sanctioned version of reality. Well did Dr Who say “The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views …”.
Just curious, is it possible to traverse from n.e. ridge near yellow band just below base of pyramid to the south side near south summit?
Michael, you e got material for a long documentary. Just saying and pointing the obvious … (I would donate for the production)
i second this...!
probably not an easy pitch but if some company like netflix had picked it up and invested, it would make for a hell of a show.
the research this guy has done is far beyond anyone else outspoken on this topic, and some of them have even been downright dishonest and misleading.
i dont have all that much interest in Everest in general, but this is one of my favorite youtube channels!
it started with being recommended one of those random "dead bodies on Everest" videos by youtube then from there stumbling in to this channel...
and it really pulled me in!
@@ralphbooger4756 I still would donate Michael!
Amazing! Thanks!!!!
Yeah, you agree it says "Neckband". Awesome.
I am planning a trip to base camp in the next 24 months and your videos have me fixated. I am with your theories 100% about Mallorys1924 probable route and given all the evidence can't understand this whole Mallory and the Second Step thing that everyone else is obsessed with.
thanks for another interesting content. just to be sure, the Axe founded in 1933 is on the route that mallory & Irvine would have take to reach the Zig Zag or the rock band routes?
The axe was found by Wyn-Harris on. his way to the couloir -- or rock band route and. was picked up on his way back from the couloir. As the "zig-zag" follows that same route up until the decision point -- which is well past the ice axe, the ice axe is consistent with either of these routes or any number of other routes.
The ice axe tells us little other than that they were taking a higher traverse and likely returned along the exact same path they ascended. Given the extensive documentation found about oxygen bottle cacheing, there is no mystery as to why they did not descend a lower route.
Excellent!
Thanks Michael! Bentley Beetham is my namesake, although I’m American and I certainly didn’t know of him as he would be distant. It would be interesting to learn a little more about the other members of the crew and how they were chosen.
Do you have any recommendations for books to read on the subject that is simply the facts without more conjecture than necessary? I don’t care too much about theories, just their names and why they were chosen.
Your videos our great, whether or not you choose to reply. Cheers I look forward to more and binging your old videos.
the Third Pole is a great read but some of the facts have been refuted in Micheal's past vids. I recommend Wade Davis' Into the Silence - a terrific book based on lots of research about GMs life
Ok. Worked myself thru about 20 of your videos. And they are all exiting, entertaining and somehow addictive to watch until/beyond midnight, if you wanna go "post the truth" ;-) Didnt know, so much could have been made clear with proof of the original materials, if s.o. just read them earlier. But I dont get past one thing...
Here is my question:: Why on high earth do the modern Chinese not allow any other route than NE-Ridge anymore? While in former time they gave permits to every kind of fun left, right and centre, including solo attempts (Messner), straight north face, incl. sliding down their butts (Loredan) etc., for some reason they wont allow any of that (or anything new) anymore. I dont go with safety concerns. Or is there still anything to hide after all??
👍great video!
Is it not possible to search the whole mountain with a drone?
An extensive drone search was done in 2019 and they refuse to release the photos or video from it. I am doing a video about what this likely means but a reasonable conclusion is that they found something as they had a very low snow year. Likely they intended to return the following year and do a proper search of Irvine's body, but because of Covid, the North side has been closed to foreigners since then. In addition, few non-drone photos from anyone there in 2019 have been released, and nothing showing details from below the ice axe location.
@@michaeltracy2356 so it has been 4 years now,? they just need to release that damn drone footage! an by not releasing it they are making themselves look uber suspicious
@@philc.5100 I personally think they they have a likely location on Irvine's body from the drone video and are keeping quiet since they want to be the first ones to confirm it is him so they can be credited with the discovery.
Would it be possible NG are saving some Information or footage/photos for the 100 year anniversary next yr. Or are they waiting to go back again to complete the job?
I seen another you tube video where they have claimed they did not find anything with the drone, and basically saying Andy Irvine will not be found.
@@michaeltracy2356 can someone else not produce new drone material?
Мэлори годами вынашивал план восхождения. Продумывая каждый шаг с английской педантичностью, изучая склон, рельеф горы. В отличие от современных чайников он прекрасно разбирался в топографии, привязке на местности...схеме восхождения...и вряд ли изменил продуманный маршрут.! Эти парни имели план! И они сделали это. Жаль что не вернулись. Все продуманно до мелочей.роберт Скотт и Джордж Мэлори сделаны из одного теста! Люди - скалы .!!!! Несгибаемого духа!
Climb it
I love this translation!
Three words ......... THEY DID IT.
One word: YES!!
See above what do you think
See comment for D, what do you think
Hi Michael, I too love your videos. I am somewhat confused listening to your route choices. ( it is an old white guy thing) @5.10 you show a map. This map is showing the 2 routes M&I considered? You think they took the skyline? Is the skyline also the zig zag route? and where is the 2nd step on this map?( that has me most confused) Where was their 26,800 camp on this pic? AND where was Mallory found on this "map" And do they / can they only cross the neck band/ rock band going the rock band route? the neck band looks like it extends to the skyline route too? AND LAST why dont the chinese like to give permits to climb this side of the mt.? Sorry I cannot sort this out- sam
The "zig-zag" would lead to the skyline, thus if they took the "skyline", it would mean they took the zig-zag to get there providing they followed their plan. The 26,800 camp is roughly at the start of the green line. Mallory's body location is not visible on that photo. It is below and to the left of the "inverted-T" snowfield at the bottom middle of the photo. The "neckband" wraps around the entire mountain, but is not really visible along the skyline route because of the triangular snow field. I take the "neckband" route to mean crossing the highly visible section of the band that was visible from John Noel's location. There are a couple different ways to do this with Messner's 1980 and the Australian 1984 being two different variations -- one going to the NE Ridge, the other to the West Ridge.
Chinese don't like people looking. Likely that is why I was denied entry in 2015.
hi and thank you- what do you mean they dont like people looking? why is looking for MI a bad thing?@@michaeltracy2356
What I mean by "they don't like people looking" is that they tell you in base camp that searching for Irvine is not permitted and that if you do it you will be kicked off the mountain and banned from ever returning.
The whole Mallory and Irvine mystery is really about the 1960 Chinese expedition. This is why people who publicly go "searching" for Irvine are allowed to return year after year and are even given permits for drones. Each and everyone one of them says the 1960 reached the summit. They also release little to nothing about their "searches."
This "mystery" is not as simple as it seems, and I would not recommend you not try to understand it until you have read and understood several books about intelligence agency influence operations. Perhaps read The Culture Cold War and Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. Once you understand that those operations are common place and learn to spot some of the telltale signs of them, this whole "mystery" will make more sense. But the fact that you are asking "why" the Chinese would do something indicates you have a lot of reading ahead of you before you can really understand what is going on here.
Going the zigzag route, it should be possible to find at least one depot of the oxygen bottles ….. with only a little luck. If I got that right, two depots between 2nd step and the end of the zigzag climb were created and used.
Yes, the Chinese reported finding some oxygen bottles exactly where you say. Unfortunately, as that does not fit with the "narrative," it is not widely known. I've mentioned in prior videos but will cover in detail in an upcoming video. Of course, I am always suspect of anything the Chinese say about Everest, but in this case, there is at least one piece of corroborating evidence.
Total confusion here as a good mystery should be! Synnots book says that in Norton's 1924 book that Mallory favoured the ridge route? And that oxygen bottle 9 was at the base of the first step. I thought the general consensus was they left late for a summit bid due to Mallorys flashlight being found in the tent, late being the crack of dawn 5.30 ish, a good 5-6 hours later than modern day ascent. Graham Hoylands book shows that a drop in barometric pressure was greater than the 1996 tragedy on the day the view was obstructed for Odell. As for the passage up the gulley before the coulier , Reinhold meisinner said it would have been impossible due to the shale, that even be avoided it. What do you think?
I cover the "storm" in the video You Call this A Storm: ua-cam.com/video/2aoFUeDdxHY/v-deo.html
And the follow up that Hoyland is completely wrong: ua-cam.com/video/WtFBI7M60Js/v-deo.html
I cover problems with Norton changing things around in: ua-cam.com/video/p40DpOI_CtM/v-deo.html
I cover Messner's changing version of things in: ua-cam.com/video/vS3ferOixJA/v-deo.html
Please take the time to actually watch each of those and let me know if they changed your opinion about what is really going on in this "mystery."
Okay, thanks for the reply I will look at your other videos you mentioned, the ones I have seen so far are excellent by the way
How come the 2nd Step can't be bypassed simply by traversing underneath it?
got to be a few rocks falling down the norton col with all those climbers on the ridge
❤❤
👍👍
I really love your work sir. Is there any way to make a small donation?
He has a tiered membership for his channel, you just have to click "join" and see the different types of membership. I am just a lowly snow monkey.
@@allanfrederick8705 THNX!! Just missed it. but I just joined.
So Mallory never intended to climb ridge and the second step. What if when Norton came down and shared a tent with Mallory. Mallory told him he intended to climb again, and Norton may have told him to try the ridge because he didn't see a feasible route up the couloir that wouldn't take forever and they didn't have enough oxygen for multiple days
Then Mallory would have told John Noel of this change. Instead, Mallory's last note down to John Noel that took place after Mallory last spoke to Norton confirmed Mallory was sticking to the original two routes that Mallory had told John Noel.
I realize there are internet charlatans that just invent things while ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, but if you look at Mallory's last note -- written well after he departed from Norton, it will answer your own question. Read. Think. Answer for yourself and stop being dependent on myself or any other Internet personality.
It is clear….👊
👍👍👍👍👍
Michael - Why is it impossible to get permission to attempt the zig-zag? Or is it just an opaque bureaucracy?
The Chinese government simply will not give you a permit for it. They will only permit climbs along the route they've approved. Additionally, Michael has pointed out in previous comment sections that you would not want to try and climb the route while everyone was climbing above you on the normal route, as any rocks or oxygen bottles that fall down the mountain would be a pretty serious threat to your continued existence.
@@CharlesFreck Thank you.
@@CharlesFreckThe Chinese don’t want you finding anything by chance either. Might look embarrasing when they have to confiscate it.
😊
Not to put too fine a point on it. 🤐
I know this is circumstantial evidence. But consider why Mallory chose Irvine as his partner. Probably the least experienced. If Mallory was intending to go for the summit, come what may, he'd have to have a partner that he could persuade / bully / cajole into going for it, with him.
That may have been a motivating factor, but Irvine was chosen as Mallory's initial partner more than a month prior to the climb by Norton. I it unlikely that Norton. assigned Irvine to Mallory so that Mallory could bully him to the summit. More likely Irvine was experienced with the oxygen equipment and was physically stronger than anyone else. Everest is not a technical mountain and you don't need any experience to climb it. You do need a great deal of cardio-vascular endurance. Irvine had no experience but a lot of cardio-vascular endurance. Thus, we would be a good fit for someone with substantial experience on that particular mountain.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks for answering. I guess The Wildest Dream is somewhat inaccurate then, if Sandy was chosen a lot earlier by George.
I know Sandy was good with equipment, but hadn't even been near that height before. I guess them coming back in the dark and lack of photos remain the main clue.
It also confuses me that Mark McKenzie (on pg 102 paperback ed) quotes Mallory as writing in the official account after the 1st disastrous expedition "the ferocious crampons and other devices, steel pointed and terrible for boots armament"
When the presented photo of Mallory's boot shows angled ridges fixed on the bottom of them. Not crampons. Possibly totally made up of the V shaped cleats (mentioned on pg 172) "tricouni nails?", or combined with hobnails in the middle of the sole with their points going downwards. (Which aren't the normal "hobnailed boots", by any means, which just have the much more slippery hob underneath the boot) Mallory did know the snow conditions he was dealing with.
Finally Messner said Mallory couldn't have walked the final ridge cause he didn't have crampons. But from what I can make out thru the obfuscation that you are elucidating for us, Mallory did have boots that could hold in those conditions. Regards
Mallory's assignment of Irvine was typed up on the original plan of the climb and Irvine wrote about it in his diary. Why some "researchers" would be unaware of this remains a mystery.
Yes, the boots are not exactly "hobnail" boots. They could be fitted with crampons and Mallory used crampons below North Col. He didn't use them above because the straps reduced circulation in the boots.
Without crampons, you "cut steps." That is, you whack a hole with your ice axe. and. then stamp in it to turn it into a step. Hillary and Tenzing did the same thing even though they had crampons -- their crampons also not any better than the "hobnail" boots because the boots were not stiff enough. The boots and crampons Messner had. were much stiffer and better suited for ice climbing. This most likely explains why Mallory took the zig-zag route which is a rock route for which his boots were better suited. than even Messner's crampons. This leaves the main obstacle for Mallory as the Citadel--- which is why Mallory spent so much time thinking about that particular obstacle.
@@michaeltracy2356 Thanks. I need to digest this. I could never mountaineer - I had cerebral pressure at sea level (HACE risk) - so I did climbing, diving and everything but. I accept your arguments regarding his route, though I still think, being Mallory, he could have scaled many slopes. My interest though, is the final ridge, esp in dwindling light. But I gather you agree that those V shaped nails were up to it. So I really don't know what would have held him back. And he was clearly returning. (Can't say I've appreciated cut steps in snowboard boots. Dangerous as shit.) Regards and appreciate you answering those things.
OJ is definitely guilty
Besides dim sims, the Chinese are good for nuthin. Let people on the mountain!
Doesn't matter which route is talked about: they didn't make it. No amount of wishful thinking will change that.
Well, we won't know because the 1999 failed to search for summit rocks. Had they actually searched the pockets for rocks and found none, I would agree that they didn't make it. But there is a difference between "they didn't make it" and "we don't know whether they made it because they didn't search for summit rocks."
All we know is they didn’t make it down from where they turned around. That’s all we know, for certain. With some research and a bit of reasoning we can find they were at the third step at 12:50 PM. It’s also doubtful that the storm as mentioned happened, at least as described, and we know there’s some obfuscation wrt their climb. For what reason, I don’t know. But… that close to the summit, with oxygen, and what was probably good weather? I find it harder to believe they didn’t summit, in a way. If they didn’t then something had to make them turn around. But they were damn close, that’s for sure