Louise Perry: motherhood in crisis and the feminist case for marriage | SpectatorTV
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- Feminist philosopher, Unherd columnist and author of The Case Against The Sexual Revolution discusses population decline, how culture, the state and feminism are failing mothers and what can be done about it.
// CHAPTERS
00:00 - Introduction.
01:39 - Demographic changes and do women need to have children?
13:44 - The case for motherhood.
19:29 - How the feminist movement neglected the mother, and reconciling liberalism with motherhood.
26:46 - What can the state do to help support mothers and encourage motherhood?
31:06 - The ways in which men and women differ psychologically, and instances of scientific sexism.
37:36 - The feminist case for marriage and why children where the losers in the sexual revolution.
45:20 - What does the future look like for feminism, and will there be a conservative feminist resurgence?
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#feminism #marriage #louiseperry #motherhood #politics #womensrights #gender #spectator
Feminism should not be about turning women into men. It is about providing women with the opportunity to flourish and maximize their potential as women. I am so thankful for people like Louise Perry for pushing back on the notion that the only means to elevate women is to make them indistinguishable from men in terms of aspirations and mindset. Thank you for interviewing her.
Great comment. Thank you.
Simplify to the true social and civil principal. The rights and responsibility of the individual.
And indistinguishable in genitalia!
Well men did that when they were in charge but now the feminist thinking dominates everything now
The way to maximize the potential of women is to teach them from the time that they are little that they need to grow up and find a good husband to have a family with, not to start a career first and never get married and end up a frustrated single mother or lonely
I work in a retirement home: the amount of 80 year olds who live and die alone is staggering. Most of their children now have jobs and children of their own and can hardly come to visit. It is no longer true that you are accompanied by your children in old age. Just spend a couple of weeks with old people and you will see. Old age is very lonely for great many people whether you have children or not.
Having children is still better than nothing. Everyone's story is going to end differently. Having adult children who can check in and see if elder abuse is occurring is something at least. I hope more conversations happen around this topic.
@@louiseevaonthepathI also know at least one elderly person who was pushed out of her own home by her greedy son. There are 2 sides to this, and the point still stands that old age is shit for most people.
That's the truth
Agree with that, I’ve noticed a number of friends come from broken families, and they don’t talk to their parents (perhaps a few times a year at best). I’m from an Asian family and I speak to my mum twice a day and she visits regularly. I have no children, but I was never selfish enough to put my desire for children in front of what is best for children. I never met the person that shared the same values, and I wasn’t going to live a life not being respected. Everyone’s story is different as to why they don’t end up having children. Even if you do, you better hope your children respect and love you enough to check on how you are. Modern families are not like that from my observation.
Anecdotes. Some people with kids will die alone but all the people without kids will die alone. So….
She is spot on when she says that divorce is more disruptive than one of the parents dying.
That acrimonious split is so destructive to the children, then they have to shuffle between two separate and often contentious worlds for their entire childhoods. It’s utter tragedy unfolding.
My parents divorced when i was 16. I am 33 now and honestly, it kind of gets even worse with time as you are reminded at every milestone that your parent's new relationships are more important to them now than your own children and neices etc. Considering divorcing my own parents to stop the emotional one sided demands of it all.
@@SamOwen55 that’s terrible, and sad. So much damage is done and the parents just want to move one with their lives.
I often said during my divorce that it would have been far easier if he had died. He had to make me hate him because he couldn’t handle the guilt of his cheating. It’s been acrimonious ever since. Now he’s poisoned my own children against me, which happened over the years of undermining, and they are living without contact with their own mother now, all because it serves my ex husband’s ego better to have it that way, even though my children are suffering as a result. When they are as old as you, they’ll probably realise and it may be too late by then. If he had died, none of that screwing up would have happened. I wish I’d known how it would turn out when I was younger. I would not have had his children if I’d known I’d have to raise them on my own, in the face of him trying to make life as difficult as possible at every turn.
My father cheated on my mother and I was glad when he left. He was an alcoholic and treated my mom like dirt. At 15 years old, unbeknownst to me, I became a feminist.
Never missed him at all. Finally peace at home.
Why are we apparently so dissatisfied? Expectations? Ability to evade consequences?
As a person whose mother died when I was 4, I can say that it was bad, but that it affected the adults differently to me. They understood the long term, they had to rearrange their lives to care for me and baby brother. Throughout that time I had a stable and loving environment (we became that 3 generation family for a while) and I was repeatedly told about my wonderful mum and how proud she would be of me. Divorce is fracture with no real way of healing, sometimes. I know some people make it work, I know blended families can work too (I am part of one), but as an adult I can look back on the trouble my step brother had with his parents' divorce and being moved into my family and really appreciate how that was hard for him. He was very defensive of his Dad.
Treating childbirth on a par with having tonsils removed - ie out of hospital a day later - is nuts on every level. When one has tonsils removed, one doesn’t have a baby needing attention 24/7. Where I live, breastfeeding is decreasing because it doesn’t (usually) fit with the typical way we live now and so much bs is written about baby rearing.
The lying in period also enabled women to bond with their new-born and relax into breastfeeding without anxiety. I was born in 1963 and my Mum spent 2 weeks in a maternity home bonding with me, but also bonding with the other mothers. Important relationships were formed. By the time I had my daughter in the late 80s new Mum's were encouraged to leave after a few days, now of course it's often within a day
Absolutely, I so much relished the week I spent in hospital with both of my babies and also the fact that the nurses understood new mothers were exhausted and arranged things to take the pressure iff you a bit. They don't do that now.
So what? Go home and bond there. It's a far better environment anyway.
Seriously,... Why the hell are you there for weeks???
My son and daughter were both born while I was living in Japan, and there they spent a week in hospital after giving birth, then the doctor asked her to come once a week to see that she was feeding properly and all was well. Japan has one of the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, and though the birth rate is dropping radically there, it still 120m+ - yet they can achieve this. 'Motherhood' has a certain sanctity about it.
@@StephenSeabird The Idiocracy explained why Japan has a low birth rate. Most people are like the first couple, unsure about having kids in such an unstable economy. The Cleetuses and Trayyvon Jr's were wiped out by harsh ecology, or they did seppuku.
This is SUCH an interesting interview, conducted thoughtfully, calmly and with deep insight.
A caesarian section, discharged 24 hrs later, no assistance at home other than - hopefully - her husband! No wonder there is a steep rise in post partum depression and all manner of depressive conditions. This lady needs a wider audience.
The 24hr post-Caesarian discharge shocked me.
I don't know if you've read her book but if you haven't, read it if you can, you're going to love it. One of the best feminist books i've read in many years...
Just had my second child end of last year, caesarean section, was discharged 24 hrs later, with only my husband to look after our first daughter. Thankfully, I gave over 5 years gap, so she was old enough to run some little errands. Isn't this the norm?😂
@@teecee2211 Your husband was old enough to run some little errands? That's a bonus. 😁
I love her new podcast - Maiden Mother Matriarch!
I was particularly interested in her discussion of the 'lying in' period as 'the village' taking care of the new mother and baby for 30-40 days. I have friends who are deeply religious Americans who have a 'village' - they don't live in a village, but their church is a village. For example, they away one weekend and their son's wife died suddenly. They rushed back but about a 6 hours drive and in the meantime their church village rushed over to the house to help so their son wasn't alone. Anytime any member of this church 'village' needs help, they all pitch in. This took me back to early parts of this interview where they discussed that religious people have more children.
When women got the chance to choose, they had fewer children. Climate change and stuff like that isn't the main reason, it's that it's so difficult to create a happy, well functioning family. I had four children.
Thank you for your honesty.
Four is alot. I live in a liberal country where most women work. Lots of working moms. Most have 1-2 kids. Some married have no kids
Louise Perry and Mary Harrington are killing it right now
This Louise Perry is a babe.
Open borders Globalisation has destroyed the family. My dad was a printer in the 70s and could afford a 3 bedroom semi detached in a nice suburb of London, a stay at home wife and 2 children. This banking and financial system has hollowed out the working class and will do the same to the middle class.
its already eating the middle class, unfortunatley
Interview contains nugget that South Korea has lowest birthrate, and this is despite having relatively closed borders.
The Government and 'those in control' help push women into work allowing more taxes to be raised and pushing down wages for all. So all those feminists that are praised for helping women - not really the true story. Then the creation of the pill allows women to sleep around with very little consequence (the main one being - getting pregnant), so the natural hypergamy that is present for good reason, allowed women to sleep with better men with no consequence of pregnancy, although longer term women become bitter at all men, when these 'top' men don't settle down and keep sleeping with young women. So many other reasons.
@@spring-heeledjack3340 Yeah, dwindling birthrates is not something you can balme immigrants for. They happen to countries which do not take on half a million Middle Easterns a year too. I mean Russia has got hermetic borders but invades other states to steal their kids, literally.
If that's the case, how come south Asian families keep their extended families intact in the UK and do better for it on the whole? I agree there is a cultural attack on the family in the west. But I think it comes from middle class intellectuals somewhat dictating from their bubble.
When immigration is done well, (slow paced with an infrastructure to support it) societies benefit and become less racist. When immigration is done at a high/fast rate for employers to make the biggest profits taken to offshore accounts and screw the community. Then this creates devides and resentment that's pulls communities apart.
This is one of the best podcasts on YT right now
It is strange that a former musician can do a better job at interviewing people than journalists that have been doing it throughout their career.
@@ciarancrowley2516 He has a naif openness about his areas of ignorance and the charm to make it endearing. Makes him very authentic.
@@hugor1338 I think he actually makes an attempt to like the people he interviews as well
@@ciarancrowley2516 I think it’s his ability to really listen and collaborate, both which are important skills as a musician. Strange indeed that journalists seem to have lost this skill. We live in an age of narcissism, indeed.
He is remarkably humble and self effacing for a handsome young dude whose band was massive.
so true that one can experience great meaning and satisfaction from their children and also grandchildren. I get a lot of joy just from seeing my son walking hand in hand with his daughter, very simple visual but somehow very emotionally gratifying. The pay off for night feeding diaper changing, doing homework., etc....etc... of my young son was certainly worth it : ).
A very important message and very thoughtfully discussed.
Completely agree as I have had a career simply due to not being able to conceive or bare children, I never felt fulfilled until my step daughter came into my life at age 9, she's now 18 and at uni living a good life, which makes me feel it was all worth it ❤️
Also to add my niece is Malaysian and her aunt came from Malaysia and lived and cared for her during the first month or so once my great nephew was born, I must my great nephew is such a very calm baby x
* bear children
@@DieFlabbergast 🤣
I am gen X, most of my friends delayed starting families until their mid 30s. I think economics is a big part of that as it tended to happen a couple of years after getting on the property ladder,which was delayed by about 10 years on their parents. The baby bust will be followed a baby boom when pressure on property eases
I raised my two children alone from the time they were 1 and 3 while working a full-time job. It was hard and would have been impossible without the help of a state-run kindergarden and the two grandmoms. Still, it was a suboptimal situation for us all. I noticed in my friend-circle that those kids whose mothers were able to stay home with them longer and who had a good support network (usually family members) did better. These children were happier, more self-confident, successful in school, etc. The kids of divorcees or stressed-out parents with little time usually had issues of some kind. Stay-at-home moms in intact families do invaluable work raising the next generation and get zero recognition for it. If we want to preserve our society and values for future generations, we need the educated professionals to have children.
Which means men have to be in charge again. Women think they can have it all but unfortunately they cant. You have to sacrifice something in order to have a family.
@@KD400_ Unfortunately, at least here in Austria, most salaries aren't high enough for a father to support the whole family. By the way, most single, working women aren't in this situation because they "wanted it all", but because their marriages/partnerships didn't work out for some reason. "Some reason" usually being infidelity of their men or alcoholism or some other breaking of trust (you don't just leave on a whim when you have small children to take care of). An many, many women are left by their partners for another/younger woman. About half the families I know have problems with staying faithful in longterm partnerships. Men aren't biogically made for monogamy. Back in the days of my grandparents it was normal for a woman to be financially dependant on her husband. She would receive a monthly household stipend and would keep book on the expenses as proof that she wasn't frivolously spending money. It wasn't uncommon for the man to have a girlfriend on the side or to go to the whorehouse. So the problem we have is the strong libido of men and the fact that the modern woman expects her man to stay faithful to her alone for a time-span of up to 50 years. This is not a realistic outlook. The "marriage model" developed in a time when people didn't live that long. Dying from childbirth or a disease was common. Therefore it was rare for marriages to last longer than 10 years. If someone did reach 75 years of age, they usually had gone through several marriages in their lifetime. So fidelity wasn't really an issue back then. Now that the average life expectancy has gone up to 80 for both sexes and fidelity is expected, it is an issue.
@@mehitabel325 I don't know about ur situation but yes I understand some women don't become a single parent by choice. But obviously ur kids and other kids are better off with a father figure or another masculine figure in the household
@@mehitabel325 everything you said here is the part that everyone continues to gloss over! I was raised by a single mother I'll be damned if I let a man make me into one! That was a nightmare I cannot relive that again!!!
@@AdelTheForsaken I also thought I could avoid this by choosing my partner very carefully - a smart hard-working guy in a crisis-safe profession. Our relationship lasted 12 years and he wanted to start a family. He was quite moralizing and condemned any intances of unfaithfulness or dishonesty amongst our friend-circle. Imagine my surprise when Mr. "Better-than-Thou" falls in love with someone else and leaves me with a baby and a toddler from one day to the next. At that point there really wasn't much I could do about it except make sure I received financial settement. Because if your partner leaves you at a time when you need him the most, then he can never be trusted. Of course I was stupid as well; should have noticed some red flags much earlier on.
Absolutely smashing it with the guests and always a great discussion. Always a highlight to see you've posted a new interview.
While I had a challenging ride raising 5 children as a single mum from when the youngest was 3 , working professionally and sleep being scarce , my life brings me much joy still working for a few more years ,with fantastic children and grandchildren who make me richer than most of my colleagues
Are the 5 of the same father?
"Extended family just doesn't compute in policymaking"
Sure it does. They're against it.
I am so sad that this is such a revelation. Women have no idea what has been done to them.
These changes have all been driven by women and femunists!
High taxes to pay for social security.
No fault divorce.
Hormonal birth control
family court system
Child abuse moral panics.
Two income families.
Hookup culture.
#metoo etc etc
Don't like the society women's complain g has wrought? Tell other complaining women to shut up!
Many of them gladly played along, to indulge their egos and materialism.
@@davidadiwego4608 I think women are more open to social contagion. It's their strength (social aggression replaces physical aggression) and also one of their biggest weaknesses. Females often lean into hierarchy and popularity over truth, for survival reasons.
This is why we need to break down and talk about toxic Femininity so women can manage this issue much better. Toxic Femininity - gossiping, shaming, defaming, passive aggression, trading compliments for compliance, focusing on how one looks to others in order to get what they want, and caring much less about how their authentic self and their accountability.
Western women have been hugely infantalised and lied to by feminism imho.
Yes feminism provided us freedom to live life on our own terms and not have to marry
@@YesBruv105
It's actually the conservative women that have been in infantalized to believe that men have to lead
Really can't get enough of Louise Perry. I could listen to her talk and answer questions all day.
She didn't say much useful.
"We want to keep the good parts of feminism but force men to be traditional again" isn't smart or useful
@@timthetiny7538 IT really depends on what you consider smart.
If you're saying it isn't smart because you disagree, then there's nothing useful here for you at all. Because while she isn't as extreme as say Mary Harrington, she is still making the basic argument, 'well then, what do we do?'
It's an open question. and I think in part vague for a good reason, because her target audience is those that .. really, really want to believe in feminism, but know deep down it's mostly bollocks. It's meant to open questions more than answer them. to make a somewhat milder case that, look the stats don't look good, and here's what has worked before.
Whereas with Mary it's a much sharped in your face damning argument against feminism, and a stark turn away from anything that could be misconstrued and 'progressivism.'
But basically bother Louise and Mary agree 99.5%, only at some of the more meta political stuff might they find themselves disagreeing.
Loise's thrust is a logical takedown of the depravity of the sexual revolution, whatever good it may have done for freedom, it's come at a huge cost. Because without guardrails, some level of cohesive level of sanity beyond just 'consent' and 'live and let live' the science is proving this is going to destroy us. And she says it in a very cordial and comprehensive non-judgmental way. That ultimately, western man, you sit at a crossroads.
And really the even more interesting part, is all the dark web has shifted this way, seeing the trees in the forest now. It's making sense, social media, screen time writ large, all technology unfettered by moral constraint is quite literally destroying humanity, if for no other reason than it's broadly distracting us from even breeding.
But she makes much more polite points. And it can't be understated here I don't think that while her softer less critical approach is maybe not as informative, she is still nonetheless one of the few attempting to bridge that gap between the feminist view and traditional conservatism, but not implicitly for the same of 'being conservative' but because being honest that's where the adult road leads to when you supplement your world view with enough factual undergirdment.
most leftists cannot engage even at this level, but some listening to Louise might.
Far too much (most imho) of our world views are simply a difference of the boys and girls and how we process the world around us.
I find it reassuring that the likes of Louise Perry and Mary Harrington are both both feminists and visible in the public space. The arguments they make cannot be easily made by men. I don’t agree with all both say. I am less reactionary or conservative, but the secular argument for monogamous marriage being in the interests of children and mothers, acknowledgement of the psychological differences between men and women, and a recognition that there maybe wisdom from the past that has been lost that might make lives better for women (lying in and leaning on the female family and friends network) resonate strongly.
If those things are so great for women then why was feminism even needed in the first place?!
It's refreshing for an interviewer to allow a guest to answer a question without interruption and they jointly explore the topic. More Marshalls and less Morgans I think 😊
Children are only as expensive as you make them. You don't need the Gucci stuff, all the toys, you don't need the best oak crib--they're better off sleeping with parents anyway. The only way they might be expensive is in that one parents should stay home. Or else the tragedy of day care is that it costs a fortune almost making the second pay pack redundant, separates kids from parents, and make everyone in the household catch every illness.
But that is the way it is expensive for those just able to afford it, until circumstances change, like higher fuel prices, inflation, NET Zero policies, sanctions on a strategic supplier of materials, increasing population or a reduction in rented accommodation, etc.
@@NorfolkSceptic War is a fact of life and inevitable, to be dealt with as any other hardship.
@@awuma But War isn't compulsory, especially when Defeat looks like the best outcome, which looks like the current administration's objective.
A stay at home wife is not “expensive”. Generally the income that the wife makes isn’t worth the extra expenses and taxation. Economics aside, it’s FAR more expensive to pay strangers to raise your kids for you. It sacrifices your child, your relationship with them and society as a whole.
The main problem is that most people can't even afford to live in a house on one income anymore. So maybe if you don't want to send your kids to daycare you could raise them in a high-rise one-bedroom apartment, but that hardly seems ideal either. Daycare isn't so expensive that it equals the cost of losing a whole salary, at least not where I live.
"Do we need children" is such an anti human thing to even ask
Do we?
I love every thing Louise said.
Child bearth is a horrible experience, having children is a huge strain on women Mrs Perry says, her whole outlook on motherhood and women hood is utterly different from what I know about my many aunts.
I have three children. It's a nightmare.
She's also lying when she says research shows women who don't have children aren't happy later in life. It's the opposite. Multiple research shows that women who do not have children are happier. A lot of these women so desperately want other women to join them in parenthood misery. They feel cheated that other women have opted out.
@@sarahrobertson634 Did you want children and why did you go onto have 3? Are you in a happy marriage and are your finances ok?
@@RedArtistx Paradoxically, it's also really great, but that's because my family is amazing. Society shits all over motherhood, which is the nightmare part.
Unless you've squeezed them out, mate you've got no idea lol
It's definitely not a skip down a garden path, and I had relatively short labours
Louise's ability to articulate her thoughts so clearly, is truly admirable.
Brilliant interview
Thank you for this magnificent interview. Indeed, there is no wonder so many women still go through various health issues, post natal depression being the most talked about, but not the only consequence of poor care of new mothers, especially, in my own experience in the UK.
I’m a liberal business owner and atheist… and so are most of my friends. We all have children. This is just so incorrect. I live in California, the vibe is most definitely non-religious, liberal, money focused here. The women I know that are childless don’t want to support children, which is fair. Some have a family history of mental illness and trauma, don’t feel like they would be good mothers. I would just call it being self aware. We all know people who have had children that probably shouldn’t have.
Yes! Why should sickos and idiots also be making children?
Excellent interview. Thank you both so much.
A thoughtful conversation with much to reflect upon
some people (like me) didn't want the lifestyle of children and there is nothing wrong with that. and many 80 year olds can't depend on their children either so that is naive.
I have worked in care, and when you are old it’s far better to have someone who can advocate for you. Take care with your decision on not having children. Someone has given birth to you since the Dawn of time. Lifestyle wears thin in time. I mean this kindly.
totally agree. My neighbour who's an 84 year widow, her children live in Japan/Kenya. Having children/grandchildren clearly did not secure a family lifestyle in her golden years. The same outcome is looking likely for my mother of 4 children, who all married international spouses.
@@nelliedean7088 Thank you. I am 68 so too late now :)
Say it louder for the close minded people who think there’s only one way a woman should live. It’s as if we aren’t even human when they start getting on like this. Unbelievable arrogance.
Then do not have children and not everyone is called to marriage and parenthood, but this sort of conversation needs to be had. I agree with Louise Perry for more religious reasons, but our conclusions/thoughts do align.
In support of motherhood companies need to include options for part time work. Many women would likely get a job if it didn't require them for more than 4 hours a day. I certainly would.
Awesome chat ty both x
Not being married doesn’t mean the relationship is not monogamous. Some people just don’t bother with the legal side and expensive wedding.
Or ruin themselves legally/financially for no good reason.
While that's true, TBH, in the context of discussions like this I don't think the thing people are hung up about is the legal particulars. A couple who lives together, raises children together and is economically and socially co-dependant is 'married' for the sake of most of these arguments.
@@merrymachiavelli2041 Totally. So no need to involve superstitious rituals or the government so you can get railroaded by 3rd wave feminism.
As a female friend of mine says, "Not every women would, but every woman *knows* that she could".
@@merrymachiavelli2041 ... and in many countries now, co-habitation and children over a certain interval of time make the informal arrangement legally equivalent to marriage in terms of property, support and childcare.
@@awuma They, but I'd still argue the ones marriage imposes on mem is mote pernicious.
What a fantastic conversation! As always, Winston Marshall really, really listens. And Louise Perry is such an out of the box thinker. Her book is excellent. I cannot recommend it enough.
The day of adult children caring for their elderly parents is already over though. Most people with children end up in nursing homes or home help just as childless people do, so unless you're going to have 10 children, there doesn't seem much point in having them purely as an 'insurance policy' for your old age, as Louise suggests.
I suspect that's because most people have put their children in daycare when they were young, and now the adult children are just modeling that behavior towards the parents. It's the whole "Inconvenient people are someone else's problem" idea that was expressed and rightly or wrongly, the children absorbed and are now acting on.
@@luthiengsOr maybe because they couldn’t afford to do otherwise?
but when you have children they could visit you in the nursing home and pay for it
This is really strange - I didn't know I needed to listen to this but it is crystallising so many things I've been thinking since I had a baby 9 years ago.
Louise, you are intelligent and present your views clearly. More power and respect to you!
On being childfree… she mentions it’s apparently good fun in your 30 but not in your 80. It’s not fun being 80 regardless of having kids or not. Getting to 80 for any given individual is not guaranteed. I have worked in elderly care and biological kids are often not even visiting the elderly… as they are busy with their own nuclear families…
Having children on the expectation of being cared for when old is the one of the worst reasons for choosing parenthood and motherhood in particular given the enormous upfront labor and sacrifice you have to make… which… even with a healthy child last for decades 🤦♀️
Your body takes a huge hit… specially if you have more than one child… I mean you can die… finances often tank… partner support likewise
I don’t see how she thinks this is possibly a good idea for an ordinary women??😮
For someone who complains about feminism being a lucury belief, she sure falls for the idea that having children isn't a luxury belief.
One of the best recent interviews with Louise Perry. Good to see an interviewer who is young but nonetheless educated, who's done research but mostly lets her talk.
In the developing world people have kids because they are insurance against old age. Once you think you can depend on the state (economically unsustainable) people don't have enough kids.
At one time, people could put money into savings and investments. Now the system prints money too fast for that to be effective.
FINALLY! This topic needs much more attention!!!!!!!
"It is less psychologically damaging to children for one parent to die, than for their parents to divorce"
Yes. No-fault divorce is perhaps the most insidious form of child abuse ever discovered.
It's actually better for the children I'd parents divorce
@@wyleecoyotee4252 No. It's better for the children when the parents patch things up.
No-fault divorce is really No accountability divorce. Women love it.
@@wyleecoyotee4252 wrong. Me any my brothers have trauma following from our parents divorce even 17 years on. It has destroyed our whole family, and i know both of them regret it but will never talk to each other again.
@TurkiBapHead
My parents divorced when I was 15. Happy to see my drunken father leave. There was finally peace at home. He was absolutely unnecessary.
What an incredible guest
VERY grateful for the early feminist movement, and I certainly winced at my first exposure to Ms. Perry. But these uncomfortable truths need to be heard and processed.
Fantastic interview, Louise. It will be interesting to see how this feminism contends with the dominant strand of third-wave, intersectional feminism over the next 5-10 years...
Such a good interview
The first demographic transition (lower birth rates) was first seen in France in 18thC, rather than England, Germany or Netherlands which were more industrialised. It doesn't show in England till the about 1880. this suggests there was some other cause at work.
What a particular case of demographic study France is, right?
Almost 30 million in the early 18th century. It took 200 years to finally double it. Definitely can't handle the military burdens it used to.
Surely it's all about WHO you marry? Getting married for old fashioned reasons like not wanting to get "left on the shelf" or fear of being alone is never going to help bring about a better life, but a wise choice of someone genuinely lovely who you're actually attracted to, and who has the same values and goals, could be life-enhancing.
If single women don't want to marry and have kids, leave then be.
It's not an obligation.
There's enough tradcons having kids.
There literally are not enough of them having kids to even support the elderly care needed in the coming decades
@@baxterandcotton
Even all those looney tradcon women having 10 kids?
Do you mean to support the tax base ? Or what
In addition, I love joking about how the Idiocracy will continue to screw and shit out kids like rabbits.
I think I agree with her overall viewpoint. Ultimately, it may well be the case that _most_ women, _in general_ would be happier and more fulfilled over their lifetimes with 2.1 children having lived as a stay at home parent, assuming a decent life partner, as opposed to having no children and a thriving career. Or, beyond the individual, a society where women predominantly have the former life would be happier, all else being equal.
That's probably empirically testable, as are variations between those extremes. The trouble is that there is no social model without trade-offs, and these discussions always devolve into individuals foregrounding their own interests based on their own life experience, rather than contemplating other lives they could have lived, or what is true for the majority of people.
A decent life partner is the issue…and so is economic dependence
I am 34 and could not afford to have Children, even If I wanted them!.
45:00 Peter Hitchens has been saying this for decades
12:35 -- very well said !!!
OMG - “behave as other people behave” what great life advice!!!! Having children to look after you when you’re old is a very risky strategy. You’d be better off investing the money you save into a fund for your future nursing care
who's gonna do the nursing?
@@davidadiwego4608 humanity is not going extinct anytime soon, and I’d be happy for an AI nurse in any case
It's how societies in the past worked. A loving family tends to lead to children caring, when they grow up, about their parents. Grandparents where I come from, often help with parenting as well, when for example, the parents need a day out by themselves.
@@CrocPit I wouldn't. Emotional deprivation would be the likely result.
Really good ending!!! This is how you should argue ,with pro's and con's and admitting your short comings...In the Netherlands we have {had?} a system where some lady called a "kraam hulp" helped women after birth for 5 days, so the father could work or learn to help the mother...and of course grand ma helps! But I agree that that is not enough, we should acknowledge the importance of becoming a mother, it is not "just" giving birth!
Good morning from Tasmania.
"Most people derive their meaning from something other than careers"
Just look at all the ex-Twitter employees who were professional activists.
The question shouldn't be is having a child good or bad for the mom (or dad) its is it good for the child period. The idea of bringing someone into existence just because you are worried you'll be lonely when you're old is at its core selfish. Sorry thats all there is to it you are bringing someone into existence to suffer and die period. Its not even a matter of the climate or whatever it is existence itself and these conversations don't get to the bottom of the discussion. From any world view (religious or irreligious) it just doesn't make sense to bring people here
I often say "I was dragged out of non existence without my permission and refuse to do that to someone else."
Very interesting interview. The crux comes at the end, when Winston says ‘basically you’re arguing for orthodox Christianity” - I feel this is what Louise Perry has been skirting around for a long while now. However she never wants to explicitly say it because she isn’t a Christian and doesn’t want to partake in it because it’ll make her change her life. But it’s the obvious answer to all the problems she lists in her book. It comes back to Nietzsche’s question on whether we can have Christian morality without God? - the answer is no we can’t. I think this is a grave error from Louise. She’s has such important points, but she needs to practice what she preaches for it to have any sort of resonance with the culture. She just simply points out these issues, whilst also partaking in the culture that perpetuates them. She’s completely abdicated any responsibility.
@costellocozier Costello. I’m treading deep waters here, but I think there is a great need for Christianity in the world for those who live in former Christian societies. Unfortunately the the Western Catholic Church, and to a greater extent theProtestant Church have done such a bad job people have find Christ on their own terms. A direct unmediated relationship based on more on Orthodox Christian ideas grounded in Christian meditation might characterise where I stand.
She mentions "evolutionary psychology", and it is in terms of selective evolutionary adaptation that we need to view norms and customs. Such norms take hold because they are more successful than other ways of doing things. Fertile tribes overcome infertile ones, for example. Of course, this all depends on circumstances and environment, but Louise and others like her are asking fundamental questions when one can now easily see that our societies are existentially threatened by low birth rate. These questions undermine everything we have believed over the past sixty years, and the absurdity of the most recent ideological excesses helps to bring it all to a time of reckoning.
Er ... this ought to be obvious, but I'll point it out just in case. One cannot DECIDE to believe in God (or anything else). One either believes in something, or one does not. And you could persuasively argue that the only reason Christianity took off the way it did (there being plenty of competing deities) was that it enjoined believers to follow a moral path that they instinctively recognised as good, both for the individual and for society. It certainly HELPS that Christianity's moral strictures are phrased as commands from on High, but it is far from clear that this is a prerequisite.
I agree..I was disappointed to hear she practices contraception. That's going to affect her marriage pretty negatively, as it affects the way couples see sex and in turn, themselves and their love for each other.
@@luthiengsif she didn't use contraception, she wouldn't be on the podcast. She would have no time to do anything else but raise children.
She's got a fantastic voice
Great interview but Spectator needs to mix the audio in their videos better. Can barely hear this at full volume.
Louise speaks pure truth.
Ok. I will come over.
In Indonesia, women have babies at home, then lie in for 6 months afterwards! They do not believe in taking the baby out of house for 6 months so that the family can bond and the baby can grow in a protected environment. Everyone in the family takes care of the mother & baby on the family compound. The other issue we have today is the belief that childbirth is hard or scary. We need to go back to embracing the fact that women are designed for birth and it’s the most empowering and spiritual experience of a woman’s life. Stay out of the hospital, have a midwife come to your home for birth. Prepare your body & mind BEFORE and during your pregnancy.
I've had three children. It is hard and scary.
Thank you, what a lovely supportive statement for women...and for the children!
If I need a root canal, I don’t have people telling me to have it at home without pain relief. Why is there this insistence that women need suffer needlessly?! Pain relief is a miracle.
I live in a multi generational household- its a money thing as I save up to be an 'adult'..(.in my late 30s) Unless youre super successful or a relationship expert, it's impossible to reach orbit by yourself.
When im 80 and cant look after myself, its time to die.
Are you going to kill yourself?? Like seriously what is the plan
It's not just house prices - it's rents too, the lack of decent rented accommodation at an affordable price.
Yes, rent is sky high, and goes up faster than wages. The "Just go to a lower cost of living area" doesn't account for the lack of high paying jobs that cover such expenses.
Word.
I love her
Shes amazing
She's definitely not Nordic, though, is she?
I can barely hear her - she needs to stop whispering.
So based, only thing a bit sus was Brian Henderson’s take that legalising drugs would impact the poor and vulnerable more when that’s exactly what happens now. Drugs are expensive and addicts steal to fund their habits and sometimes die due to the nature of being an unregulated substance with varying degrees of purity and adulteration. Maybe a middle ground like Switzerland should be taken but the current laws are awful, counterproductive and increase crime.
This is a wonderful interview, able to eloquently explain many of the social problems and issues more spefically towards women. I would say the downfall of marriage is the combination of feminism making some women unattractive long-term partners and the finanial/family risk to men within marriage law, making marriage high risk, expensive vanity fair with little direct benefit. The laws regarding separation need reform and retraction of the government from family involvement with tax incentives to make marriage appealing again.
No offense but, who wants to be married only to take care of a grown man and a child?
Not many.
I'm sorry you have such a pitiable view of a family structure
I was traumatised by a mother who has always hated me, sought to torture me emotionally and whose absolute and unconditional love was directed solely to my brother. I believe that this is the reason why I have despised children for the largest part of my life. Despite having taking different forms of precautions and even the morning after pill, I became and remained pregnant 6 times and had to have all those pregancies terminated (as the morning after pill never worked). I don't regret those abortions and have spent my whole life recueing and looking after animals in need and feel drawn in particular to animals who have been abandoned by their owners as it strikes a nerve with what I have felt throughout my personal family and childhood journey. The most important job in the world is the one of parent as we are all for the most part, a result of that parent-child relationship.
yes we are in such a long transition letting women control their fertility. It is a brave thoughtful thing. The males were worth more to a female who gets her sustenance and ID that way. I too got the jealousy, thing is while it happens you don't understand and get more entangled with the world meantime which is harmful.
You should have kept your legs closed so that you wouldn't have to mu(r)der babies
Why are you drawn to animals? They aren't weaklings to need affection from others to survive, even a dog left in the rain could find ways to make a life for itself
The only people who should ever have children are those who genuinely want it.
Adult children don't look after their ageing parents any more.
because liberal society and the associated culture of shamelessness gave them that choice.
We didn't stop going on holiday when we had our first child and same two years later when we had our second.
Maybe things are different in the UK, but in the U.S. affluent Americans have the highest rate of marriage and the lowest rate of divorce. So I don’t get why she thinks getting high status people to get married will change things. High status people already get married.
High status isn't always identified only as those who are affluent- high status here in the states are people like influencers, hollywood types,- these types here in the states are a terrible advertisement for marriage. And they're telling our society that women should not want marriage
motherhood is in crisis ? is fatherhood doing well ? where are all men eager to father children and provide for them ?
Another topic that is chronically glossed over! I wanted to start my family when I was 25. I couldn't do it! I was surrounded by fuckboys......
Today's workforce, be they indigenous or immigrant, effectively pay today's state pensions through their productivity.
The problem, as France is currently wrestling with, is that more people are living longer to take advantage of those pensions and there are fewer people working to provide them.
Nevermind paying for all the other services provided by the state and expected by its population.
Hence the current controversial effort to try and raise the pension age there in an attempt to address the imbalance.
Thus one of the major problems here isn't just the low birth rate in isolation, but the mismatch between it and the increasing aging demographics of most modern western economies.
we chose the worst demographic to decrease in numbers
@@davidadiwego4608 I don't think it was necessarily 'a choice' as such, but there are inevitable social, political and economic consequences for fostering the circumstances that have allowed for an increasing aging population.
One way or another we need a young, fit productive workforce to support and sustain them and all these arguments are intertwined with birth rates and immigration levels and then further complicated in some people's minds by overpopulation concerns and stretched resources at both the global and national level.
At the personal micro level it might be 'great' that our mums, dads and grandparents mostly live far longer than they once did, but at the macro level it presents serious enduring issues with difficult choices.
@@gerhard7323 we chose widely available pharma contraceptives. We chose liberalised abortion.
@@davidadiwego4608 We've elected to do lots of things, but it was never down to one single choice.
Medical advancements more generally from childhood vaccinations to heart medicines to cancer treatments to changing diets to better healthcare.
All these things amongst many others including economic growth contribute to our longevity.
What I'm saying is is that longevity whilst it might seem like a pure positive on the face of it can and does bring with it unaccounted for negative consequences.
Motherhood to me can show remarkable empathy and resistance to conformity by challenging the perceptions of others. To understand the fundamental needs of others in any social group. Her bravery of clear thought and action. Her only enemy is vanity and jealousy which has also destroyed many men. To be confident in your own skin and know your talent is by far a better measure of a good person who does not need to betray or denigrate others. The almost inner strength of the mother is to liberate the spirit of life and combat prejudice and ignorance. God bless my mother for she was noble and capable as any human or any animal that retains instinct to know course of action which affects us all.
She is a gem of a woman!
You don’t need to live in London. There are amazing places to live in the UK, like the Cotswolds. It’s a much better lifestyle, cleaner, quieter and affordable. Good for children and adults.
metropolitan lifestyle?
"10 Global Trends Every Smart Person Should Know" is a vital read to understand modern day facts beyond the superficial headlines. It will change your view of the world
High trait Openess people find it very difficult to support a family. Mass consumption does not reward creativity or variety - particularly if it doesn't scale.
Brilliant discussion! I want to check my inherent bias and disagree with her, but she mirrors my beliefs and observations based on my extensive research and life experiences. Any related policy debate should consider the points made in this discussion and the cost-to-benefit analysis for society.
Why does it seem controversial to revere women and their allure, complexity, beauty, intelligence, influence, and role in society and our future? And why does modern culture promote an adversarial, win-lose narrative between men and women?
Perhaps technology and human nature are incompatible. The significant, negative socioeconomic trends seem to confirm this, but I hope I'm wrong. Good topic for a podcast?
I have pondered the same and got to a point where I can no longer falsify my hypothesis. It goes like this : the base problem is the logical end point of late-stage capitalism, where humans treat each other instrumentally. If every relation becomes a _transaction_ , then everyone is measured on their ability to give, against a want to give as little as possible in return. Everywhere I look, with no exception, I see this - despite vehement denials. Words like "emotional labour" would have been absolutely unthinkable and utterly incomprehensible a mere century ago, for example.
Fantastic interview. Louise Perry is my hero!
I’m a lesbian and I hope to be married someday.
Not wishing to be offensive but are you intending to marry a man or woman? As I know a lady who is a gay orientation and is married to a man and has children.. I was curious as to whether this is a one off? Regards
Legalising gay marriage was the best idea ever. Why should the gay community avoid the hell of marriage and trauma of divorce? 😂
Good calm dialogue.yes the decline in the birth rate.But. No explanation of the birthrate in the ethnic population which will exceed our own.
Lots of people in nursing homes who never or rarely see their children, it's no guarantee
Id be a feminist if they all looked and sounded like this lady!! Fantastic!
07:00 The other point about population decline is that, while it might be happening too slowly to avert the climate crisis (I'm not entirely sure I agree here - if we still had the global population growth rates seen in the mid 20th century, we'd be screwed. Population decline isn't sufficient, but it might be a precondition), it's happening rapidly enough to have massive economic consequences. I'm personally in favour of population decline, but on the level of maintaining a fertility rate of 1.8-2 for 500 years.
The projected declines in East Asia, Eastern Europe, Italy...etc. (less so Western Europe and the US) are _scary_ . Geopolitics aside, the projected declines are rapid enough that its just going to be socio-economically destabilising.
if it really is such a crisis, it will cull billions of people. Those people are, more or less, the ones who couldn't survive in the 1st place without the industrialization/fossil fuel exploitation/eco system destruction that is causing the so called crisis.
All any non woke country needs to do now is incentivise motherhood and eventually they will take over the world, lol, well it's true !
The awkward truth that is commonly ignored is that lesbians were a major force within feminism.
And for gay women, a husband and kids are not top priorities.
Doubtful whether that was a major factor in how the feminist mindset developed.
Something I find more likely is this; Traditionally, women controlled the domestic sphere, while men were in charge of the public sphere. And several hundret years ago, the domestic sphere was still a major force of society, comprising the majority of overall economic assets and a good chunk of social life. But over the last few centuries, this importance as continuously dropped, both due to social and technological developments, such as urbanisation and the increased outsourcing/mechanisation of traditional household chores. The stay-at-home wife has become irrelevant as a social entity, whereas it used to be an important position (even without children). And so, the less important their traditional sphere got, the more women asked to participate in the still-relevant one;
The public/male sphere.
@@michaelt.5672
I think there were several factors that influenced the rise of feminism. But without doubt Lesbians represented a political aspect of feminism as they were, by nature, not invested in the traditional nature of 'family' and women's role in the home.
"Indeed, lesbian feminists asserted that lesbians exemplified women’s liberation, demonstrating the personal, economic, and sexual independence that feminists believed all women should possess. That analysis helped provide insight into the way that society constructed its notion of womanhood, recognizing that lesbians conformed to many traits commonly construed as masculine."
It's still a problem even among radical feminists. I'm one of the very few heterosexual mothers in my local group of radical feminists. Often times it gets so anti men, antinatalist, pro separatist that it's almost aggressive towards women like myself so they stop organizing. It's hard to build anything meaningful that helps most women when the majority of the women haven't the same experiences of that majority. I was able to get a conversation going on the ways that Christianity served the needs of women and children very similar to what Louise talks about even though I'm not Christian. It was interesting that's for sure but takes alot of patience and energy.
I hope it changes.
How is that an awkward truth? Lesbians advocated for themselves and their rights because they were stifled in a society that didn’t allow women financial or social independence. It’s not their fault that their ideas took hold and other women decided that maybe they would like a career and an independent life as well. Mothers need to advocate for themselves because no one else is going to do it for them.
@@patriciag6030
But that's not quite true is it? Cosmopolitan, for example, had an agenda to manipulate women into a version of the Sex and the City lifestyle. And the whole thing was a kind of psy-op plan to increase the labour market at the expense of the American family structure. I remember reading a piece by a former 1960s Cosmo journalist, she was happily married, living out in the sticks, and told by Helen Gurley Brown's editorial team to make up stories about living a wild swinging life with a glamorous job in the big city. And the template for that lifestyle was the kind of work/life existence some city dwelling lesbians were enjoying. So the whole thing was a fiction. And lesbian ideas didn't "take hold", a package of lies was sold to manipulate women to make bigger profits for corporations. I don't call that 'empowerment'.
My 2 greatest achievements, in this order, are my successful marriage to an amazing woman, and my children. It isn’t even close. Nothing I’ve ever achieved - and I’ve achieved a lot - is even in the same ballpark. My kids had models of success, and they appear to be very loyal to their partners. They’re in their early-to-mid 20s. You can’t teach that - you have to live that. As my parents did. Before they passed, they celebrated their 74th anniversary.
51:20 amazing. Eager for sacrifice to the betterment... But not THAT sacrifice. But the ability and will to sacrifice for better is there. It's Human.
I’m Greek and it’s a traditional rule that we stay home and be looked after for the first 40 days
I didn’t know this was a real practice in England too
It's the same in China.
So many questionable assumptions in this interview. Childbirth & laying in was from home births. How many women died in childbirth or of lack medical intervention, such as no C Sections. Laying in was for the affluent not domestic or factory hands. How many women. Churching is because the woman was regarded as unclean and had the be shriven.
Mariarosa Dalla Costa is an excellent example of a Feminist thinker who supports sustainable family life. {Edit} Also, clearly identify advertisements, so the culture is not focused on silly images in the checkout aisle.
I think I will make a response to this.