I strongly agree that the "fates" effects of CON loss to one class per failed adventure were oddly capricious for a goddess of Predestination! This module, like WG7 and the GH Adventures hardcover before it, was a grim sign for Greyhawk fans that the setting was being put to pasture by neglect, being handed off to loosely overseen groups of freelance writers. The ending with the monks from Kara Tur being the secret teachers of the Scarlet Brotherhood (and then disappearing through a gate to excise the monk class) was dreadful. The Forgotten Realms' heavy-handed Time of Troubles was elegant by comparison! The only good things I really liked from this book were the city write-ups and Rob Kuntz's Rauxes adventure.
I bought it at the time, most of the adventures were so-so, but as a "sourcebook" of ideas and locations it was fine. I never played out the Greyhawk Wars, anyway, never thought it was necessary to accomodate this change from 1st to 2nd (we just sat down, discussed things and retrofitted what was necessary, with me giving PCs some little extra tidbits to them in exchange forcthe differences between editions
Great video thank you for reviewing. It's always good to get original content references of the different cities towns of Grayhawk by the original designers to get the feel and intentions of their design. I always try to emulate or capture the intentions of original designers when writing my home Games.
Yea, the disjointed adventures strung into a campaign had a weird meta, gamey feel to them -- an unnecessary in-world conceit for changes to the ruleset. The trial-of-Fate theme just didn't make much sense for that. The Time of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms became much the same thing, as I recall. But...Fate of Istus is handy as a setting reference, especially the city descriptions.
I've run it a couple of times. The lack of editorial consistency between adventures is an problem. Each writer should have been given stricter parameters in which to work (which is a recurring issue from TSR in that era). The real time spent on each should be a little tighter range. The paladin adventure in particular could literally involve one combat, and the rest of the party can't participate, while the magic-user's focal adventure should take at least 3-4 nights of game play and potentially longer. Difficulty varies, too. It's one of those campaign games that is meant to allow for game play in between the adventures, which always bothers me. What if players encounter an adventure hook with greater urgency and never show up to the next city? It's very easy for the adventure to go off the rails. I do love the idea of a mix of setting material and adventures, and I think it did that part pretty well.
Thank you for this video once again as instructive as it is complete. It's a good idea to suggest the book as a sourcebook or gazetteer rather than asrie of n adventures. I do not own it and your analysis allows me not to place this product in my priority list but rather as a less urgent acquisition. See you soon for new adventures!
I agree: Great sourcebook gazetteer. As to the consequences... I'd ignore them. Why would Fate punish anyone not involved in the quest for their failure? Fate may be capricious, but she is not so arbitrary. Or so petty.
I plan on running a campaign VERY loosely based on this book, but I plan on making heavy modifications, in fact pushing Istus far into the background and putting the plague front and center. It will be 4E's abyssal plague, which got a few crossover books but no real adventures to speak of besides an Encounters season. The abyssal plague was worlds-spanning but we never got to see how it hit Greyhawk. Well, now we'll find out. The abyssal plague was deeply under-utilized, it's an opportunity for a 'zombie apocalypse' style game but with an evil magical plague rather than the old undead plague, which is getting old anyway and doesn't hit quite so hard in a world full of undead. As I said, heavy modifications.
I agree with you💯% on the adventure module critique, as an adventure, too many damn cooks. As a source book, great, especially for the maps of the various cities.
I remember my character dying in the final mission of this when he failed a system shock roll being polymorphed in order to infiltrate the scarlet brotherhood
While I agree that the various adventures are hit and miss, since this module was the start of my longest Greyhawk campaign, I'd like to defend it. For starters, it's not for beginning Greyhawk players or DMs. It's for people who have "been there/done that" with a Hommlet/Temple sort of campaign in which most of the action takes place in one area. They look at the big Darlene map and wonder: what's that over here and what's going on over there? Yes, it's a good travel log. Why wouldn't it be? This module is all about the players being mobile. It spans the Flanaess, from Rookroost to Rauxes, from the Sheldomar Valley to the Tilvanot Peninsula and a dozen locations in between. The fact that players must travel from place to place is a feature, not a drawback. When they've finished an area and need to move to the next place, point to Darlene on the wall and ask what route they'll want to take. By land? Sea? River? Foot? Cart? Horseback? Caravan? Then sit back and watch them have fun plotting a course. The plague itself is just a MacGuffin. Think of it as the big story arc of a TV season. Many episodes will focus on it in full or in part, but many others will just be sideshow adventures along the way. The players will pass near the locations of many famous modules that will beckon to them (including "The City of Greyhawk" box set). Also, when on the move, things like "The Book of Lairs" (I & II) will be handy along with several adventure hooks GG has here on his channel and, of course, any area source books you happen to have. You can even have them hear news from distant lands that you already know they'll be visiting. So, if you must, alter and water down the plague results to suit your campaign. Just remember, if the players are successful in a plague area, nothing bad actually happens. Hopefully they will bat well above 500. I ask you then, my fellow Greyhawkers, not to turn your noses up at this one. It's the skeletal frame of Oerth awesomeness. It picks up the very sod of the Flanaess and rubs it in your face. With a skilled DM it's Gygastic. And, truth be told, while some of the adventures are really good, the others can at least be polished up to be presentable. I even like the last one were they get sent to Kara-Tur (if you consider those lands to be originally part of Oerth). Through some Oriental adventuring the players have to return to the Flanaess, either over the Black Ice or, more likely, via a trade ship crossing the Dramidj to Zeif where Middle Eastern (or would that be Western in the Flanaess?) adventure awaits. In the end, the players will be around 10th or 12th level and will have have seen more of Oerth than most most 20th level characters. A bard talking to them of their exploits will write a new song call "I've Been Everywhere M'lord".
Good video of the bad times as darkness fell. It was a very dark time for the hobby. Gary had been run off from his own company. Quite a few of the old strong creatives were being forced to either leave or fit into the new pattern of the company which wasn't focused on creativity as much as it was solely on dollars. The long, slow death of TSR had begun, though it would take eight more years before it ended and got sold. 2nd edition was something to prop the company up for a while longer by offering something new and supposedly better, but so many of the things that had made AD&D such an interesting pleasure for me were wiped out in the process. Classes became more generic and less interesting. Some of the most challenging/interesting ones were either dumped altogether or made into lame shadows of their former selves. I bought the new books, and lots of them, but only because I was hoping that THIS one would have something I really liked. And there were some good ones, indeed. Some of the class kits out of the "Complete" books were very cool and I enjoyed them. The Caves and Catacombs sourcebook spiked my interest a lot and was more than worth its price. But, otherwise, meh. And while I wanted to like Fate of Istus (even after despising the absolute insult that WG7 was), I was not remotely pleased with much of it. Rob Kuntz was the highlight of this crapfest. He did good work, and while the others weren't awful, just the concept was pretty much trash. "Here's our justification for crapping on your hobby." was how it felt to me. May Lorraine Williams rot for her efforts. And I hate saying things like that, but thirty plus years later I'm still bitter.
Sounds like the FR had a better handle on what to do with a 1E-to-2E module as far as the lore goes. In those you have gods dying and and being replaced and whatnot. Although the actual adventures in those are reportedly also terrible. The PCs are sort of sidekicks on the NPCs' adventure that results in them becoming the new gods. Plus some railroading where the "good guys" want to execute you for "killing Elminster," (very plausible).
I sincerely apologize for asking an off-topic question, but I just don't know who else to ask. Do you know what happened to Chirine's Workbench? The blog has completely disappeared. I searched and searched, but no luck. Thanks, and I promise I won't do this again.
To be honest, Greyhawk has always seemed awesome. But what's kept me away are the names. Gary was atrocious at making up names, all those guys were really. In fact, dungeons and dragons still sucks at names. Sometimes I feel like they just make sounds and then that's the name. So I always kind of hedge towards my own setting just because of the stupid name. If there's a way around this, I'm all in on Greyhawk.
I strongly agree that the "fates" effects of CON loss to one class per failed adventure were oddly capricious for a goddess of Predestination! This module, like WG7 and the GH Adventures hardcover before it, was a grim sign for Greyhawk fans that the setting was being put to pasture by neglect, being handed off to loosely overseen groups of freelance writers. The ending with the monks from Kara Tur being the secret teachers of the Scarlet Brotherhood (and then disappearing through a gate to excise the monk class) was dreadful. The Forgotten Realms' heavy-handed Time of Troubles was elegant by comparison!
The only good things I really liked from this book were the city write-ups and Rob Kuntz's Rauxes adventure.
Classic case of too many cooks? Also, I got a hint of a middle finger to Gygax as TSR tosses 1st edition out the window.
Thanks for the review. I’m getting ready to run a 1E campaign, and hearing the reviews of modules I’ve never run helps.
I bought it at the time, most of the adventures were so-so, but as a "sourcebook" of ideas and locations it was fine. I never played out the Greyhawk Wars, anyway, never thought it was necessary to accomodate this change from 1st to 2nd (we just sat down, discussed things and retrofitted what was necessary, with me giving PCs some little extra tidbits to them in exchange forcthe differences between editions
Great video thank you for reviewing. It's always good to get original content references of the different cities towns of Grayhawk by the original designers to get the feel and intentions of their design. I always try to emulate or capture the intentions of original designers when writing my home Games.
I love that your bookshelves are bowing under the weight of your collection.
Yea, the disjointed adventures strung into a campaign had a weird meta, gamey feel to them -- an unnecessary in-world conceit for changes to the ruleset. The trial-of-Fate theme just didn't make much sense for that. The Time of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms became much the same thing, as I recall. But...Fate of Istus is handy as a setting reference, especially the city descriptions.
I've run it a couple of times. The lack of editorial consistency between adventures is an problem. Each writer should have been given stricter parameters in which to work (which is a recurring issue from TSR in that era). The real time spent on each should be a little tighter range. The paladin adventure in particular could literally involve one combat, and the rest of the party can't participate, while the magic-user's focal adventure should take at least 3-4 nights of game play and potentially longer. Difficulty varies, too. It's one of those campaign games that is meant to allow for game play in between the adventures, which always bothers me. What if players encounter an adventure hook with greater urgency and never show up to the next city? It's very easy for the adventure to go off the rails. I do love the idea of a mix of setting material and adventures, and I think it did that part pretty well.
Thank you for this video once again as instructive as it is complete.
It's a good idea to suggest the book as a sourcebook or gazetteer rather than asrie of n adventures.
I do not own it and your analysis allows me not to place this product in my priority list but rather as a less urgent acquisition.
See you soon for new adventures!
I agree: Great sourcebook gazetteer.
As to the consequences... I'd ignore them. Why would Fate punish anyone not involved in the quest for their failure? Fate may be capricious, but she is not so arbitrary. Or so petty.
I love that song Ah-hoo, werewolves of London 🎵 did you got to the restaurant?
Someone got the reference!!!
I plan on running a campaign VERY loosely based on this book, but I plan on making heavy modifications, in fact pushing Istus far into the background and putting the plague front and center. It will be 4E's abyssal plague, which got a few crossover books but no real adventures to speak of besides an Encounters season. The abyssal plague was worlds-spanning but we never got to see how it hit Greyhawk. Well, now we'll find out. The abyssal plague was deeply under-utilized, it's an opportunity for a 'zombie apocalypse' style game but with an evil magical plague rather than the old undead plague, which is getting old anyway and doesn't hit quite so hard in a world full of undead. As I said, heavy modifications.
I agree with you💯% on the adventure module critique, as an adventure, too many damn cooks. As a source book, great, especially for the maps of the various cities.
I remember my character dying in the final mission of this when he failed a system shock roll being polymorphed in order to infiltrate the scarlet brotherhood
Fate of Istus is a great module a little clunky but a lot of good stuff in there.
While I agree that the various adventures are hit and miss, since this module was the start of my longest Greyhawk campaign, I'd like to defend it. For starters, it's not for beginning Greyhawk players or DMs. It's for people who have "been there/done that" with a Hommlet/Temple sort of campaign in which most of the action takes place in one area. They look at the big Darlene map and wonder: what's that over here and what's going on over there?
Yes, it's a good travel log. Why wouldn't it be? This module is all about the players being mobile. It spans the Flanaess, from Rookroost to Rauxes, from the Sheldomar Valley to the Tilvanot Peninsula and a dozen locations in between. The fact that players must travel from place to place is a feature, not a drawback. When they've finished an area and need to move to the next place, point to Darlene on the wall and ask what route they'll want to take. By land? Sea? River? Foot? Cart? Horseback? Caravan? Then sit back and watch them have fun plotting a course.
The plague itself is just a MacGuffin. Think of it as the big story arc of a TV season. Many episodes will focus on it in full or in part, but many others will just be sideshow adventures along the way. The players will pass near the locations of many famous modules that will beckon to them (including "The City of Greyhawk" box set). Also, when on the move, things like "The Book of Lairs" (I & II) will be handy along with several adventure hooks GG has here on his channel and, of course, any area source books you happen to have. You can even have them hear news from distant lands that you already know they'll be visiting. So, if you must, alter and water down the plague results to suit your campaign. Just remember, if the players are successful in a plague area, nothing bad actually happens. Hopefully they will bat well above 500.
I ask you then, my fellow Greyhawkers, not to turn your noses up at this one. It's the skeletal frame of Oerth awesomeness. It picks up the very sod of the Flanaess and rubs it in your face. With a skilled DM it's Gygastic. And, truth be told, while some of the adventures are really good, the others can at least be polished up to be presentable. I even like the last one were they get sent to Kara-Tur (if you consider those lands to be originally part of Oerth). Through some Oriental adventuring the players have to return to the Flanaess, either over the Black Ice or, more likely, via a trade ship crossing the Dramidj to Zeif where Middle Eastern (or would that be Western in the Flanaess?) adventure awaits.
In the end, the players will be around 10th or 12th level and will have have seen more of Oerth than most most 20th level characters. A bard talking to them of their exploits will write a new song call "I've Been Everywhere M'lord".
Good video of the bad times as darkness fell.
It was a very dark time for the hobby. Gary had been run off from his own company. Quite a few of the old strong creatives were being forced to either leave or fit into the new pattern of the company which wasn't focused on creativity as much as it was solely on dollars. The long, slow death of TSR had begun, though it would take eight more years before it ended and got sold. 2nd edition was something to prop the company up for a while longer by offering something new and supposedly better, but so many of the things that had made AD&D such an interesting pleasure for me were wiped out in the process. Classes became more generic and less interesting. Some of the most challenging/interesting ones were either dumped altogether or made into lame shadows of their former selves. I bought the new books, and lots of them, but only because I was hoping that THIS one would have something I really liked. And there were some good ones, indeed. Some of the class kits out of the "Complete" books were very cool and I enjoyed them. The Caves and Catacombs sourcebook spiked my interest a lot and was more than worth its price. But, otherwise, meh. And while I wanted to like Fate of Istus (even after despising the absolute insult that WG7 was), I was not remotely pleased with much of it. Rob Kuntz was the highlight of this crapfest. He did good work, and while the others weren't awful, just the concept was pretty much trash. "Here's our justification for crapping on your hobby." was how it felt to me. May Lorraine Williams rot for her efforts. And I hate saying things like that, but thirty plus years later I'm still bitter.
Finally got notified of this video
It just dropped today for the public.
Sounds like the FR had a better handle on what to do with a 1E-to-2E module as far as the lore goes. In those you have gods dying and and being replaced and whatnot.
Although the actual adventures in those are reportedly also terrible. The PCs are sort of sidekicks on the NPCs' adventure that results in them becoming the new gods. Plus some railroading where the "good guys" want to execute you for "killing Elminster," (very plausible).
I sincerely apologize for asking an off-topic question, but I just don't know who else to ask.
Do you know what happened to Chirine's Workbench? The blog has completely disappeared. I searched and searched, but no luck.
Thanks, and I promise I won't do this again.
It went dark in late March. You can still find the content via the web archive.
It's not good. It's on my shelf because I don't want to break up my collection. Even the city maps are so so as you point out.
To be honest, Greyhawk has always seemed awesome. But what's kept me away are the names. Gary was atrocious at making up names, all those guys were really. In fact, dungeons and dragons still sucks at names. Sometimes I feel like they just make sounds and then that's the name. So I always kind of hedge towards my own setting just because of the stupid name. If there's a way around this, I'm all in on Greyhawk.