Psionics are part of the obscure rules that many DMs have ignored. I also wondered about their interest and the imbalance of the psionic character compared to the other members of the group and I realized that these powers were double-edged, even a handicap at high level. In my different campaigns we had a total of 3 characters who obtained psionic powers, but only one succeeded his roll at the time of his creation. The other two became psionic later, thanks to the reading of the magic tomes allowing to increase one of the mental characteristics (Tome of Clear Thought, Tome of leadership and Influence or Tome of Understanding), since it is clearly indicated in their description that this gave the right to a new roll. The number of attack and defense modes, as well as the nature of the psionic disciplines being randomly generated, this quickly limits the options of psionic characters Furthermore, as FaoladhTV pointed out, using psionic powers in an abusive way increases the chances of attracting psionic creatures in addition to the usual random encounters. Finally, most creatures from the outer planes (demons, devils, etc.) have psionic abilities. In a fight with several creatures of this type, the psionic character can quickly find himself overwhelmed and out of points and totally defenseless against future attacks. Indeed, it is clearly indicated (DMG p.77) after table IV.B. PSlONlC ATTACK UPON DEFENSELESS PSlONlC: "Damage accruing beyond the point where 0 psionic attack points was reached results in physical damage (hit points) being taken by the defender on a point for point basis." So being out of defense points and then attack points quickly becomes leathal as you loose hp! Finally, without psionics, the Gith races lose their interest, not to mention the scarecrow effect generated by the fearsome Mind Flayers... For me, psionics provides new abilities to the characters while putting the players in a situation where they must constantly think and be careful to use them with caution and intelligence. The DM can easily use the advantages and disadvantages of psionics and reward the players who use them appropriately or give a harsh lesson to those who abuse them without thinking of the consequences.
The only module I can think of that had a psionic character was The Assassins' Knot. The innkeeper had psionics I remember. We allowed only Monks in my campaign to have psionics since they were so underwhelming as starting characters. The psionics kind of fit with them and gave them more options.
That makes sense as Len Lakofka & his players were fans of psionics. Gygax said he included psionics in AD&D because Len & his players talked him into it.
You bring up an excellent point. When I first started actually playing D&D, as opposed to just buying the books for the pictures, my gaming buddies seemed to be really into the concept of psionics. And yet, not once did they ever incorporate any into our games. They seemed to view them more as a goof. Really well done video and great use of visual aids, good sir.
They are the only monsters with psionics aren't they, except in Deities and Demigods? Anyway the PHB is what you should look at first if you want to understand Psionics, not the DMG.
The real downside of a character having Psionics in AD&D is found in the DMG on page 182, where it is specified that if psionic powers or a certain list of spells _resembling psionic powers_ have been used by the party within the last turn (or, in my games, since the last encounter check if that is longer than a single turn), then there is a 1 in 4 chance that an encounter will be rolled on the Psionic Encounter Table instead of the normal tables, which is full of Demons, Devils, Titans, Mind Flayers, and all manner of other high-powered creatures. The limitation on Psychic Crush is that a character using it can only use one particular defense (Thought Shield) at the same time. Thought Shield is one of the defenses with a lower level of effectiveness. See page 78 of the DMG, in the footnote to the chart listing the Area of Effect of the various Attack Modes, or page 110 of the PH in the description of the Psychic Crush Attack Mode. The other advantage of Thought Shield is that it "can be kept up at all times, unlike the others", which presumably means that it's the only Defense Mode that can be used if a Psionic combat starts from Surprise, though I don't find any explicit statement that this is the case. I'll point out that the text does specify that the costs of Defense Modes are only paid while being attacked by an Attack Mode. As a DM note, I'd say that it is useful, when running Psionic combat, to split the Psionic rounds into two parts, the first five segments of the round and the last five segments, then run the first part at the beginning of the round and the second part at the end. I also suggest allowing any Psionic character or creature to perform one Defense Mode plus either one Attack Mode or one Psionic Discipline per segment, *in addition to* any normal combat activities. Some DMs may prefer to make them exclusive, though, so that an entity with Psionic powers must choose to either act normally, using only Thought Shield for defensive purposes, or use Psionics. This is, in my experience, far too limiting, especially if there's a mix of Psionic and non-Psionic opponents. Imagine if three Mind Flayers all had to stop what they're doing to handle three lesser Psionic humans even for a round or two, and the humans also have three non-Psionic fighters. Alternately, one Titan shouldn't need to spend an entire round because they take four segments stomping on a single weak Psionic opponent, while simply suffering the strikes of opposing spearmen. But, lacking any explicit discussion in the rules (that I know of), other viewpoints are equally valid.
And of course, just after I write that, giving a description of how I've always done it, I finally find a definitive sentence in the rules on the issue of psionic combat and other activities (heck, I probably saw it before but just skipped over it). In the PH on page 116, "During psionic combat the creatures involved can engage in no other activity." Hm, I'll have to try things out that way in my next AD&D campaign (in process of preparation!)
I know people hated the system but I loved the quirkiness of it. I would have my players roll to see if they had psionics and in 10+ years of AD&D I think only 2 players had it. I did have to house rule a bit to make it workable.
I always felt like psionics didn't fit well in D&D, but in the 1970's psionics were everywhere in pop culture so I understand why they included it. There were movies like CARRIE and THE FURY. Comic books did a lot to pave the way for this with characters like Professor X and Jean Grey who existed in a universe alongside Doctor Strange. Doctor Doom combined the abilities of science with magic. Science fiction and fantasy didn't feel as separate back then as they do now, as genres.
Love your content man. I do have to say you are poised to fill a hole in the current D&D UA-cam community that not many others would be able to fill easily: You know more about grayhawk than most of the other UA-camrs would pretend to know about. And since the new edition of D&D (specifically the dungeon Masters guide) Will go over and be set in grayhawk, you should definitely focus some video efforts on zooming into a specific location in the grayhawk universe and explaining the factions and adventure set in that spot. And do that every week or so.
it's not a new edition. It's still the same book with just some revision. And it spelled Greyhawk. The revised text is not set in Greyhawk. No one ever said that. I believe they said there is an adventure that's in Greyhawk
Psionics were mysterious and mystifying. Trying to figure out psionics stats for monsters, like demons etc, was always a PITA as a DM. I liked the idea, but rarely bothered with it except at very high levels (demons, devils, mindflayers, etc) and PCs never had it.
@@strawpiglet Fuzzy, fuzzy carpet. In a era when everyone smoked indoors. Smoked all kinds of things. Like leaded gasoline. While playing In A Gadda Da Vida over and over and over and over. Hey man, I got a great idea. Let's add psionics to the Player's Handbook, man.
good video and summary. you asked why you need it? in 1e it gave special powers to non spell casters regardless of class. we used them (rare) and it was essential for high level combat as you mentioned with demons, devils, and gods
I was in junior high at the time. Most of the time we never bothered rolling as if successful, there was a good chance one PC would completely overpower the group for several levels. The only time it actually worked out as in a one-on-one campaign there the player rolled it, and I did an Iron League campaign where their rogue stumbled into some psionic crystals being used to mind control the Lord Mayor of one of the towns leading to a conspiracy campaign where the rogue played cat and mouse by a mysterious monk order. Even then, I had a house rule that he only discovered powers one per level via finding and figuring out how to use the crystals. This became the motivation for the campaign as he really wanted to get to his high-level abilities.
We used them a bit, especially in a Science Fantasy campaign. Essentially all we did was sprinkle a few Disciplines around the party. Energy Control was a problem defensively, and Molecular Agitation offensively. The latter got really problematic when used against a target that was being contacted telepathically; RaW allowed its use at unlimited range.
I agree with the video's conclusions. The trouble was, it was a big piece of candy that the players really, really wanted to possess. The fact that it was almost impossible to get, however, was frustrating to them. On the other hand, if one of them did manage to beat the odds, the game became unbalanced which was frustrating to the DM. The only solution seemed to be to design a campaign with psionics in mind and let all the PCs have it. But who plays an FRPG because they want to be part of a psionic task force?
In my experience if you play with psionic encounters it´s not that over powered. I almost never go to use my abilities with my psion due to that. There is also a lot of ways to lose your abilities before you get the good once in higher levels.
I am probably one of the few players who love psionics. It gives ADnD 1e this wild, random, unbalanced flair I loved mosed and which is completely lost in 5e. However, we had just once a player with psionics and we played only once or twice. Although psionics players in ADnD is overpowered (it depends on the psionics strength and abilities though), if you face several monsters with psionic abilities, such as mind flayers, demons or devils you are as good as dead as a pc, because no other pc can help you. So, no traveling into the outer planes, and underdark is very dangerous. 😊
I'm a proponent of psionics in D&D. I disagree that they should be relegated to science fiction/fantasy settings. Does it fit the Greyhawk setting, though? Perhaps not.
I do think it can work in a setting that is designed around it. Athas/Dark Sun comes to mind (but that's 2E, and somewhat out of scope for this particular video).
I did not realize that once defense points were drained the attack started draining attack points. Somehow in my 40+ years of playing 1st edition i never saw that line. Thanks for teaching me this!
I managed to roll a Monk with Psionics nearly 40 years ago playing 1st Edition. He actually died of old age after playing him for a decade. Here's my take on RPG's, TT's...just find your group, Garage your Editions...negotiate your rules within those systems. You do NOT need to adhere to whatever company is putting out reasons for you to spend endless amounts of cash for unbalanced bullshit they need to adjust and get you to buy another tome to 'get in on'. I've found it almost comedic that 'role play' or even 'TT rules' which are based on casts of the die, played by the most imaginative demographic amongst us, require further 'editions' than the initial concept that is offered! Hell...with my first 'crew' we adjusted all the variant 'dice' to simple percentile rolls...easily adjusted due to environmental or timing or surprise or weather or footing or light etc. conditions. Use your mind. You don't need to spend all this money on WotC or GW...you just don't!
I've always found psionics to be an interesting artifact of the other fiction that Gary and others were clearly reading that didn't make it to Appendix N but did make it into the inspirational reading list ("Reading for Fun and Ideas") for Star Frontiers.
I really like Psionics when combined with Dragon issue 76...error 78. We allowed humans, dwarfs and halflings to multiclass with the psionics class. The level of mastery really limits the use of most powers and Psionic blast against a non psionic only seems to happen when a psionic is intentionally saving all thier points to do it once.... And we live in terror of psionic random encounters.....
Thanks for the explanation of the system such as it is but, Pretty sure Tim Kask wrote Psionics. I believe he talked about it on his channel several years back and in the same vein discussed here, not a good idea, shouldn't have done it. In terms of better suited for sci fi it might worth pointing out in the early days there wasn't a hard stop between Swords and Sorcery and Hard Science Fiction (Barrier Peaks and genetic experiments in the Temple of the Frog and all that)
@@nowthenzen I remember this as well. Gary outsourced the project to Tim. I don’t remember what the inspiration for having mental powers in the game was. I vaguely remember hearing that someone in the company was very obsessed with Doctor Strange comics at the time, and that might have been where it came from.
I always loved having some psionic encounters in the game, with lots of homebrewing. I preferred to have the psionic "combat" phase a very brief element of the encounter. It was never a main part of the game, but would only come up in particular encounters for a change of pace and atmosphere. The more arcane an area of the DMG was, the more I loved it. :D
Interestingly, in the types of games I am now running, extracting knowledge and secrets from defeated enemies is often more valuable than slaying them. It would be great if overwhelming an opponent psionically had allowed the victor to scan the vanquished’s memories for information.
I couldn't make much sense of it in 3rd grade, and it doesn't make much more sense these days either. But I did like the idea of it for demons, gods, devils, etc...
I don't recall ever rolling for psionics when creating characters in 1e. It seemed a little difficult to use. I also find the lack of randomness in the tables strange - I would have thought the loss of defensive points would be a range to roll for rather than an exact number. Weird.
You may be incorrect about the backlash of Psychic Crush, I can't find that rule in DMG, but it does say at the bottom of pg 76 DMG "Any score above that shown .... indicates NO EFFECT" (capitalization mine ) Also, each segment, all remaining attack and defense points are totaled together, and divided evenly (Paragraph at the top of page 77) so each new exchange the difference between remaining defense and attack points will be eliminated. This makes NOT attacking an good option if you are lower in points, delaying the outcome until some other means of combating the monster is found.
It's entirely possible. I know I read that somewhere, right before I made the video (there's no way I'd imagine something that specific), but damned if I can find it now.
We fiddled a bit with the 1e psionics back in the 80s but I guess we found them to be too much work, and hard for my teenage brain to grasp. (Yes, I see the irony ha ha.)
Haven't had a player successfully role for psionics in a long time. I have used the Mind Flayers mind blast often using the combined Int and Wis saving throws from the DMG. Overall psionic battles are way to crunchy and would rather not use them if possible.
It's kinda funny that nobody I know have ever really used the psionic rules in AD&D. But still the psionics gave us a few iconic monsters, especially the mind flayers.
I never could get a grasp on Psionics even though I love the concept. 2nd ed did a good job of integrating into the mainstream system and does great things in Dark Sun. By 3rd, Psionics became redundant with the addition of the Sorcerer class. The at will spells really made the Psionic redundant. I know Judges Guild did a Psionic supplement. I'm not sure when exactly it came out, replacing Eldritch Wizardry or AD&D.
Other than a handful of psionic rings that used the players int or wis for points to grant a specific minor discipline that could be used by anyone. (Always fun to have a fighter levitate or a cleric turn invisible) I've never met a player who requested playing with psionics.
I use and have used Psionics for the last 40yrs -- albeit the chance to be psionic is so low that not many get it. Unknowingly I intuitively used the Eldric system of reducing primary class abilities if the psionic were focused on (similarly if not used - they got reduced) -- I apparently didn't catch the "Psychic Crush" failure penalty -- towit I'm going to re-read that -- so thank you.. AND in my Greyhawk Campaign -- set in 720CY (so out of Canon) I have made Vathris -- the Hero God of Invention from Old Ithar the patron of "the Mind Arts" who lost against the Magic-Using Wizards of Sulm Empire.. and have a nearly 30yr campaign that has / is about to venture to Utaa .. after leaving Serrenae
As to "why do you need that" - well, because variety is the spice of life. :) Having everything use the same magical or supernatural powers system is more boring than facing a variety of new kinds of powers that are terrifyingly mysterious.
Exactly. I like how by default (at least in 2e), psionics is entirely different than magic. Things that block magic don't block psionics, and psionics defenses may not help against magic.
I hated psionics in 1st edition, both because of the overtly sci-fi flavor (in the DMG, Gygax says DMs "don't want gunpowder muddying the waters of your fantasy world!"- but psionics are fine?!), and partly because of the total lack of balance- a fraction of characters just get a crapload of extra abilities for free- blech. The only use for them back in the day, in my opinion, was as a way of determining if you wanted to add a new player to an existing campaign. You just asked to see some of their previous character sheets, and if the majority had psionics, you new right away that the prospective player cheated like crazy.
If my players ask for it I allow them to roll for a chance to have psionics. Up to now it never happened that anybody had psionics. Good for them, because if you read page 182 of the DMG, then you have a 1 IN 4 CHANCE to encounter some real high level random monster such as greater devils or demon princes. (If you did use some psionic power or a spell resembling psionic power) Your low level character might think he has a lot of power, but he will die soon....
Psionics have a major downside - Psionic Encounters. Every time you use your abilities you have a chance of attracting a psionic creature. Imagine being a 1st level character attracting a mind flayer. Not only do they outstrip a human or demi-human in sheer psionic ability, they have the mind blast which is stronger than the psionic blast. Better to make a saving throw & be over with it.
This'll be the one time I'll differ from your opinions. 1) you are better off not having psionics unless you are exceptional at them. Otherwise you are a victim to other psionic creatures, mindflayers notwithstanding. If you use the Heroic Legendarium you could play a Mystic and automatically have psionics, but to my knowledge this is the only way to ALWAYS gain access to them. You have a very slim chance to even unlock the ability of psionics, but once you do, your Int, Wis and Cha determine your psionic attack strength, once you determine this number: Roll 1d100 to determine your base + 1 point per Int, Wis and Cha above 12. If two of those stats are above 16 that number is doubled, if three are above 16 then it is tripled. Simple. That number is a mirror of your defense strength. COMBAT: Psionics are fast! (as are the disciplines), BUT you can't do anything but Psionics if you chose to go that route. You also can't use attacks and disciplines or more than one discipline at a time. ALSO, once you attack someone in the Psionic Combat Notes (section b) of the DMG it mentions defenders will automatically use their best defense if able. (which I'm not sure how they know to use their BEST... it should be a guessing game; your mention of rock-paper-scissors = correct). What this alludes to is that once the attacker enters a psionic "trance" (for lack of a better term) another "awakened mind" senses this and at the last moment is able to defend themselves. Then combat is off to the races. All psionics take 1 segment to initiate, even disciplines. Defense points and Attack points are your reservoir to obviuosly defense and attack, but once you have ZERO defense points you are helpless and psychic points do actual physical damage at a point by point basis. If you are fighting someone with more points than you... you are going to die/fail. Hence why Mindflayers are so dreadful. So thats where Pychic Crush comes in. When you can't out last someone, you have to try for the nutshot or your screwed. Enter Psychic Crush. And no Psychic Crush does not leave you defenseless after you use it (unless you are out of defense points--it IS costly). As with all things most creatures get saving throws against your attacks and the smarter they are the better their chances to save. Also the farther away someone is the better their chances. The odd bit is disciplines which mastery levels up based on the level the discipline was taken at and gain an almost exponential power growth as you the character levels up. (Invisibility as an example: at 1st level you can only be invisible to 1 target but as your master goes up the number of targets you can make yourself invisible to, also goes up). Usually, you're right on, but some of your info on this post was a little off. I will agree however that Psionics can be drastically overpowering, but it's good to remember, that there are many creatures that can sense when someone uses those powers and in many cases will be lured by the presence of that power (usually through the Astral Plane) and feed or attack the player if they flagrantly use/abuse their abilities. One of my players (statistics guy), has made a pretty awesome procedure chart that deals with psionic combat scenarios against a mindflayer and how a combat statistically goes to the best ability of both parties. (human vs Ilithid). if you would like a gander. sorry for the digital outburst. Love you Grognard and an avid watcher of your vids, just needed to chime in on this one. Hollywood_DM
For more information about the subject NOT in the PHB or DMG, check out Dragon Magazine issue 78 (page 7 where it starts) as it delves into it more as well as a new form of psionic humans known as the Deryni which are just fascinating.
I managed psionics always in this way. They do not roll for their powers, they just work, but psionics cannot be buffed by magic, and wrote my own ad-hoc psionic powers (Special mention to Palladium RPG 1e when it comes to psionics).
i still dont understand how initiative is determined and how it affects other attacks? ie who gains initiative, how is this inserted into a "regular round" and can say a fighter use a psionic ability THEN swing a sword?
The way I've always understood Psychic Crush is that the attacker can only defend with Thought Shield in that segment, not that he's automatically defenseless if the Crush fails to kill the target. Am I wrong?
It’s a little worse than that. BTB, you don’t get to pick what defense mode you use. You automatically throw up the best one you have vs the incoming attack.
I thought that was only when there were multiple psionics with different defenses selected, with overlapping areas of effect. (Not the sort of corner case I felt was needed in the video!) Otherwise, you wouldn't have control over how many points you spent in any given segment.
The text from the DMG I was referring to states “b.) Psionically-attacked creatures will automatically throw up a defense if they can do so, and will use the best type (most applicable) they can.” Re-reading that now and I’m thinking it’s for monsters the DM is running and PCs can pick which defense the prefer.
@@scottgregg7994 That's a note for the DM to use for non-player monsters and characters. It's not a prescription for what all psionic-using creatures are required to do.
The 2e Psionicist is my favorite class, but the key word there is 2e. Steve Winter designed a very workable system that I would only fiddle with, but the 1e version is a catastrophe. Were I a PC in a D&D world, I'd want to be a psionicist because that's a source of power that can achieve great things while not making you beholden to any gods or any other power source. You are the power source, and I really dig that sense of self-sufficiency.
Never really used it. Never really understood it. Today: the only PC class I would allow to have psionics would be the monk. And I’d still make it very rare. And if they had the mental ability, they’d lose physical combat abilities. Almost a monk subclass.
"Psionics in AD&D 1st Edition" was really really awfully presented and detailed and (apparently? / seemingly?) not at all properly play tested before inclusion and aside from the abilities of (a few of the) psionic NPC monsters to be used against non-psionic PCs was best left ignored and never ever used ;p .. OK, just popping my personal 'lived experience' in first. I'll give what you have to say on it a listen later ;)
Ah, the thing I bring up when people talk about things that are weird/full on bad in older editions. THAC0 is counter-intuitive, sure, but TSR era psionics were some eldritch rule systems.
Psionics are part of the obscure rules that many DMs have ignored. I also wondered about their interest and the imbalance of the psionic character compared to the other members of the group and I realized that these powers were double-edged, even a handicap at high level.
In my different campaigns we had a total of 3 characters who obtained psionic powers, but only one succeeded his roll at the time of his creation. The other two became psionic later, thanks to the reading of the magic tomes allowing to increase one of the mental characteristics (Tome of Clear Thought, Tome of leadership and Influence or Tome of Understanding), since it is clearly indicated in their description that this gave the right to a new roll.
The number of attack and defense modes, as well as the nature of the psionic disciplines being randomly generated, this quickly limits the options of psionic characters Furthermore, as FaoladhTV pointed out, using psionic powers in an abusive way increases the chances of attracting psionic creatures in addition to the usual random encounters. Finally, most creatures from the outer planes (demons, devils, etc.) have psionic abilities. In a fight with several creatures of this type, the psionic character can quickly find himself overwhelmed and out of points and totally defenseless against future attacks. Indeed, it is clearly indicated (DMG p.77) after table IV.B. PSlONlC ATTACK UPON DEFENSELESS PSlONlC: "Damage accruing beyond the point where 0 psionic attack points was reached results in physical damage (hit points) being taken by the defender on a point for point basis." So being out of defense points and then attack points quickly becomes leathal as you loose hp!
Finally, without psionics, the Gith races lose their interest, not to mention the scarecrow effect generated by the fearsome Mind Flayers...
For me, psionics provides new abilities to the characters while putting the players in a situation where they must constantly think and be careful to use them with caution and intelligence. The DM can easily use the advantages and disadvantages of psionics and reward the players who use them appropriately or give a harsh lesson to those who abuse them without thinking of the consequences.
I wouldn't know about that, we loved psionics at our table.
The only module I can think of that had a psionic character was The Assassins' Knot. The innkeeper had psionics I remember. We allowed only Monks in my campaign to have psionics since they were so underwhelming as starting characters. The psionics kind of fit with them and gave them more options.
That's a cool idea.
That is a good idea.
That makes sense as Len Lakofka & his players were fans of psionics. Gygax said he included psionics in AD&D because Len & his players talked him into it.
This conversation makes me think I associated 1e monks strongly with psionics at one point.
You bring up an excellent point. When I first started actually playing D&D, as opposed to just buying the books for the pictures, my gaming buddies seemed to be really into the concept of psionics. And yet, not once did they ever incorporate any into our games. They seemed to view them more as a goof.
Really well done video and great use of visual aids, good sir.
Mind flayers and the occasional Intellect devourer were the only times we really ran into psionic monsters..
No Thought Eaters (the psionic monsters that look like platypuses)? I guess they were only here in Australia.
@@SimonAshworthWood Yeah, we in the states couldn't relate.
The creatures that swam through the Ether! Yeah, I almost forgot about those! 😁
@@SimonAshworthWoodNo the U.S. has them. I never encountered one though.
They are the only monsters with psionics aren't they, except in Deities and Demigods? Anyway the PHB is what you should look at first if you want to understand Psionics, not the DMG.
The real downside of a character having Psionics in AD&D is found in the DMG on page 182, where it is specified that if psionic powers or a certain list of spells _resembling psionic powers_ have been used by the party within the last turn (or, in my games, since the last encounter check if that is longer than a single turn), then there is a 1 in 4 chance that an encounter will be rolled on the Psionic Encounter Table instead of the normal tables, which is full of Demons, Devils, Titans, Mind Flayers, and all manner of other high-powered creatures.
The limitation on Psychic Crush is that a character using it can only use one particular defense (Thought Shield) at the same time. Thought Shield is one of the defenses with a lower level of effectiveness. See page 78 of the DMG, in the footnote to the chart listing the Area of Effect of the various Attack Modes, or page 110 of the PH in the description of the Psychic Crush Attack Mode. The other advantage of Thought Shield is that it "can be kept up at all times, unlike the others", which presumably means that it's the only Defense Mode that can be used if a Psionic combat starts from Surprise, though I don't find any explicit statement that this is the case. I'll point out that the text does specify that the costs of Defense Modes are only paid while being attacked by an Attack Mode.
As a DM note, I'd say that it is useful, when running Psionic combat, to split the Psionic rounds into two parts, the first five segments of the round and the last five segments, then run the first part at the beginning of the round and the second part at the end. I also suggest allowing any Psionic character or creature to perform one Defense Mode plus either one Attack Mode or one Psionic Discipline per segment, *in addition to* any normal combat activities. Some DMs may prefer to make them exclusive, though, so that an entity with Psionic powers must choose to either act normally, using only Thought Shield for defensive purposes, or use Psionics. This is, in my experience, far too limiting, especially if there's a mix of Psionic and non-Psionic opponents. Imagine if three Mind Flayers all had to stop what they're doing to handle three lesser Psionic humans even for a round or two, and the humans also have three non-Psionic fighters. Alternately, one Titan shouldn't need to spend an entire round because they take four segments stomping on a single weak Psionic opponent, while simply suffering the strikes of opposing spearmen. But, lacking any explicit discussion in the rules (that I know of), other viewpoints are equally valid.
And of course, just after I write that, giving a description of how I've always done it, I finally find a definitive sentence in the rules on the issue of psionic combat and other activities (heck, I probably saw it before but just skipped over it). In the PH on page 116, "During psionic combat the creatures involved can engage in no other activity." Hm, I'll have to try things out that way in my next AD&D campaign (in process of preparation!)
I know people hated the system but I loved the quirkiness of it. I would have my players roll to see if they had psionics and in 10+ years of AD&D I think only 2 players had it.
I did have to house rule a bit to make it workable.
Only when Dark Sun came out did I finally understand and like psionics.
I always felt like psionics didn't fit well in D&D, but in the 1970's psionics were everywhere in pop culture so I understand why they included it. There were movies like CARRIE and THE FURY. Comic books did a lot to pave the way for this with characters like Professor X and Jean Grey who existed in a universe alongside Doctor Strange. Doctor Doom combined the abilities of science with magic. Science fiction and fantasy didn't feel as separate back then as they do now, as genres.
Concerning your shirt:
Jonathan! Jonathan! Jonathan!
(It's like the original "You'll own nothing and be happy.")
Johnathan E. was a great character!
Love your content man.
I do have to say you are poised to fill a hole in the current D&D UA-cam community that not many others would be able to fill easily:
You know more about grayhawk than most of the other UA-camrs would pretend to know about. And since the new edition of D&D (specifically the dungeon Masters guide) Will go over and be set in grayhawk, you should definitely focus some video efforts on zooming into a specific location in the grayhawk universe and explaining the factions and adventure set in that spot. And do that every week or so.
Thank you so much!!
it's not a new edition. It's still the same book with just some revision. And it spelled Greyhawk. The revised text is not set in Greyhawk. No one ever said that. I believe they said there is an adventure that's in Greyhawk
Psionics were mysterious and mystifying. Trying to figure out psionics stats for monsters, like demons etc, was always a PITA as a DM. I liked the idea, but rarely bothered with it except at very high levels (demons, devils, mindflayers, etc) and PCs never had it.
When we created a new character, we were really hoping that it would have psionics
To understand how AD&D's psionic system came to be, please note that in the 70s we had lead in our gas and put carpet on our walls.
Carpet on the walls! You've triggered my PTSD.
@@strawpiglet Fuzzy, fuzzy carpet. In a era when everyone smoked indoors. Smoked all kinds of things. Like leaded gasoline. While playing In A Gadda Da Vida over and over and over and over. Hey man, I got a great idea. Let's add psionics to the Player's Handbook, man.
And in the early ‘80s we had Firestarter & Scanners on our movie screens & TV screens.
@@mmelmon I think I hear the shuffling of my old boot flair corduroys.
And secondhand smoke was one of the major food groups.
Thanks, Joe! Also Good point regarding Demons/ Devils and reducing XP or utilize the psionic attack abilities vs PCs.
good video and summary. you asked why you need it? in 1e it gave special powers to non spell casters regardless of class. we used them (rare) and it was essential for high level combat as you mentioned with demons, devils, and gods
I was in junior high at the time. Most of the time we never bothered rolling as if successful, there was a good chance one PC would completely overpower the group for several levels. The only time it actually worked out as in a one-on-one campaign there the player rolled it, and I did an Iron League campaign where their rogue stumbled into some psionic crystals being used to mind control the Lord Mayor of one of the towns leading to a conspiracy campaign where the rogue played cat and mouse by a mysterious monk order. Even then, I had a house rule that he only discovered powers one per level via finding and figuring out how to use the crystals. This became the motivation for the campaign as he really wanted to get to his high-level abilities.
We used them a bit, especially in a Science Fantasy campaign. Essentially all we did was sprinkle a few Disciplines around the party. Energy Control was a problem defensively, and Molecular Agitation offensively. The latter got really problematic when used against a target that was being contacted telepathically; RaW allowed its use at unlimited range.
I agree with the video's conclusions.
The trouble was, it was a big piece of candy that the players really, really wanted to possess. The fact that it was almost impossible to get, however, was frustrating to them.
On the other hand, if one of them did manage to beat the odds, the game became unbalanced which was frustrating to the DM.
The only solution seemed to be to design a campaign with psionics in mind and let all the PCs have it. But who plays an FRPG because they want to be part of a psionic task force?
In my experience if you play with psionic encounters it´s not that over powered. I almost never go to use my abilities with my psion due to that. There is also a lot of ways to lose your abilities before you get the good once in higher levels.
I am probably one of the few players who love psionics. It gives ADnD 1e this wild, random, unbalanced flair I loved mosed and which is completely lost in 5e. However, we had just once a player with psionics and we played only once or twice. Although psionics players in ADnD is overpowered (it depends on the psionics strength and abilities though), if you face several monsters with psionic abilities, such as mind flayers, demons or devils you are as good as dead as a pc, because no other pc can help you. So, no traveling into the outer planes, and underdark is very dangerous. 😊
I'm a proponent of psionics in D&D. I disagree that they should be relegated to science fiction/fantasy settings. Does it fit the Greyhawk setting, though? Perhaps not.
I do think it can work in a setting that is designed around it. Athas/Dark Sun comes to mind (but that's 2E, and somewhat out of scope for this particular video).
100% agree. Psychic characters are in every genre, whether some people like it or not.
I did not realize that once defense points were drained the attack started draining attack points. Somehow in my 40+ years of playing 1st edition i never saw that line. Thanks for teaching me this!
I managed to roll a Monk with Psionics nearly 40 years ago playing 1st Edition. He actually died of old age after playing him for a decade. Here's my take on RPG's, TT's...just find your group, Garage your Editions...negotiate your rules within those systems. You do NOT need to adhere to whatever company is putting out reasons for you to spend endless amounts of cash for unbalanced bullshit they need to adjust and get you to buy another tome to 'get in on'. I've found it almost comedic that 'role play' or even 'TT rules' which are based on casts of the die, played by the most imaginative demographic amongst us, require further 'editions' than the initial concept that is offered! Hell...with my first 'crew' we adjusted all the variant 'dice' to simple percentile rolls...easily adjusted due to environmental or timing or surprise or weather or footing or light etc. conditions. Use your mind. You don't need to spend all this money on WotC or GW...you just don't!
I've always found psionics to be an interesting artifact of the other fiction that Gary and others were clearly reading that didn't make it to Appendix N but did make it into the inspirational reading list ("Reading for Fun and Ideas") for Star Frontiers.
I really like Psionics when combined with Dragon issue 76...error 78. We allowed humans, dwarfs and halflings to multiclass with the psionics class. The level of mastery really limits the use of most powers and Psionic blast against a non psionic only seems to happen when a psionic is intentionally saving all thier points to do it once.... And we live in terror of psionic random encounters.....
Thanks for the explanation of the system such as it is but, Pretty sure Tim Kask wrote Psionics. I believe he talked about it on his channel several years back and in the same vein discussed here, not a good idea, shouldn't have done it. In terms of better suited for sci fi it might worth pointing out in the early days there wasn't a hard stop between Swords and Sorcery and Hard Science Fiction (Barrier Peaks and genetic experiments in the Temple of the Frog and all that)
@@nowthenzen I remember this as well. Gary outsourced the project to Tim.
I don’t remember what the inspiration for having mental powers in the game was. I vaguely remember hearing that someone in the company was very obsessed with Doctor Strange comics at the time, and that might have been where it came from.
@@edlib02169 That rings a bell, we might be able to blame psionics on Don Kaye.
I always loved having some psionic encounters in the game, with lots of homebrewing. I preferred to have the psionic "combat" phase a very brief element of the encounter. It was never a main part of the game, but would only come up in particular encounters for a change of pace and atmosphere. The more arcane an area of the DMG was, the more I loved it. :D
Interestingly, in the types of games I am now running, extracting knowledge and secrets from defeated enemies is often more valuable than slaying them. It would be great if overwhelming an opponent psionically had allowed the victor to scan the vanquished’s memories for information.
I couldn't make much sense of it in 3rd grade, and it doesn't make much more sense these days either. But I did like the idea of it for demons, gods, devils, etc...
I don't recall ever rolling for psionics when creating characters in 1e. It seemed a little difficult to use. I also find the lack of randomness in the tables strange - I would have thought the loss of defensive points would be a range to roll for rather than an exact number. Weird.
BTW- I picked up your Castle of the Mad Archmage… Really good!
Thank you!!
You may be incorrect about the backlash of Psychic Crush, I can't find that rule in DMG, but it does say at the bottom of pg 76 DMG "Any score above that shown .... indicates NO EFFECT" (capitalization mine ) Also, each segment, all remaining attack and defense points are totaled together, and divided evenly (Paragraph at the top of page 77) so each new exchange the difference between remaining defense and attack points will be eliminated. This makes NOT attacking an good option if you are lower in points, delaying the outcome until some other means of combating the monster is found.
It's entirely possible. I know I read that somewhere, right before I made the video (there's no way I'd imagine something that specific), but damned if I can find it now.
@@GreyhawkGrognard "rules dyslexia" I sometimes read "shall" as "shall not", etc. Very grateful for your content, in any case.
We fiddled a bit with the 1e psionics back in the 80s but I guess we found them to be too much work, and hard for my teenage brain to grasp. (Yes, I see the irony ha ha.)
Haven't had a player successfully role for psionics in a long time. I have used the Mind Flayers mind blast often using the combined Int and Wis saving throws from the DMG. Overall psionic battles are way to crunchy and would rather not use them if possible.
It's kinda funny that nobody I know have ever really used the psionic rules in AD&D. But still the psionics gave us a few iconic monsters, especially the mind flayers.
Ohhh thank you!!!!
I never could get a grasp on Psionics even though I love the concept. 2nd ed did a good job of integrating into the mainstream system and does great things in Dark Sun. By 3rd, Psionics became redundant with the addition of the Sorcerer class. The at will spells really made the Psionic redundant. I know Judges Guild did a Psionic supplement. I'm not sure when exactly it came out, replacing Eldritch Wizardry or AD&D.
It was called Master of the Mind. I can't attach a picture of my copy, but it's out there. I'll look at it later to see what's involved.
Other than a handful of psionic rings that used the players int or wis for points to grant a specific minor discipline that could be used by anyone.
(Always fun to have a fighter levitate or a cleric turn invisible)
I've never met a player who requested playing with psionics.
I use and have used Psionics for the last 40yrs -- albeit the chance to be psionic is so low that not many get it. Unknowingly I intuitively used the Eldric system of reducing primary class abilities if the psionic were focused on (similarly if not used - they got reduced) -- I apparently didn't catch the "Psychic Crush" failure penalty -- towit I'm going to re-read that -- so thank you.. AND in my Greyhawk Campaign -- set in 720CY (so out of Canon) I have made Vathris -- the Hero God of Invention from Old Ithar the patron of "the Mind Arts" who lost against the Magic-Using Wizards of Sulm Empire.. and have a nearly 30yr campaign that has / is about to venture to Utaa .. after leaving Serrenae
As to "why do you need that" - well, because variety is the spice of life. :) Having everything use the same magical or supernatural powers system is more boring than facing a variety of new kinds of powers that are terrifyingly mysterious.
Exactly. I like how by default (at least in 2e), psionics is entirely different than magic. Things that block magic don't block psionics, and psionics defenses may not help against magic.
I hated psionics in 1st edition, both because of the overtly sci-fi flavor (in the DMG, Gygax says DMs "don't want gunpowder muddying the waters of your fantasy world!"- but psionics are fine?!), and partly because of the total lack of balance- a fraction of characters just get a crapload of extra abilities for free- blech. The only use for them back in the day, in my opinion, was as a way of determining if you wanted to add a new player to an existing campaign. You just asked to see some of their previous character sheets, and if the majority had psionics, you new right away that the prospective player cheated like crazy.
If my players ask for it I allow them to roll for a chance to have psionics. Up to now it never happened that anybody had psionics. Good for them, because if you read page 182 of the DMG, then you have a 1 IN 4 CHANCE to encounter some real high level random monster such as greater devils or demon princes. (If you did use some psionic power or a spell resembling psionic power)
Your low level character might think he has a lot of power, but he will die soon....
Psionics have a major downside - Psionic Encounters.
Every time you use your abilities you have a chance of attracting a psionic creature.
Imagine being a 1st level character attracting a mind flayer.
Not only do they outstrip a human or demi-human in sheer psionic ability, they have the mind blast which is stronger than the psionic blast.
Better to make a saving throw & be over with it.
A good subject!
Man you are triggering some serious PsiTSD in me. The AD&D psionics rules were so confusing and ridiculous, I tossed them right in the bin.
This'll be the one time I'll differ from your opinions. 1) you are better off not having psionics unless you are exceptional at them. Otherwise you are a victim to other psionic creatures, mindflayers notwithstanding. If you use the Heroic Legendarium you could play a Mystic and automatically have psionics, but to my knowledge this is the only way to ALWAYS gain access to them. You have a very slim chance to even unlock the ability of psionics, but once you do, your Int, Wis and Cha determine your psionic attack strength, once you determine this number: Roll 1d100 to determine your base + 1 point per Int, Wis and Cha above 12. If two of those stats are above 16 that number is doubled, if three are above 16 then it is tripled. Simple. That number is a mirror of your defense strength.
COMBAT: Psionics are fast! (as are the disciplines), BUT you can't do anything but Psionics if you chose to go that route. You also can't use attacks and disciplines or more than one discipline at a time. ALSO, once you attack someone in the Psionic Combat Notes (section b) of the DMG it mentions defenders will automatically use their best defense if able. (which I'm not sure how they know to use their BEST... it should be a guessing game; your mention of rock-paper-scissors = correct). What this alludes to is that once the attacker enters a psionic "trance" (for lack of a better term) another "awakened mind" senses this and at the last moment is able to defend themselves. Then combat is off to the races. All psionics take 1 segment to initiate, even disciplines. Defense points and Attack points are your reservoir to obviuosly defense and attack, but once you have ZERO defense points you are helpless and psychic points do actual physical damage at a point by point basis. If you are fighting someone with more points than you... you are going to die/fail. Hence why Mindflayers are so dreadful.
So thats where Pychic Crush comes in. When you can't out last someone, you have to try for the nutshot or your screwed. Enter Psychic Crush. And no Psychic Crush does not leave you defenseless after you use it (unless you are out of defense points--it IS costly). As with all things most creatures get saving throws against your attacks and the smarter they are the better their chances to save. Also the farther away someone is the better their chances. The odd bit is disciplines which mastery levels up based on the level the discipline was taken at and gain an almost exponential power growth as you the character levels up. (Invisibility as an example: at 1st level you can only be invisible to 1 target but as your master goes up the number of targets you can make yourself invisible to, also goes up). Usually, you're right on, but some of your info on this post was a little off.
I will agree however that Psionics can be drastically overpowering, but it's good to remember, that there are many creatures that can sense when someone uses those powers and in many cases will be lured by the presence of that power (usually through the Astral Plane) and feed or attack the player if they flagrantly use/abuse their abilities. One of my players (statistics guy), has made a pretty awesome procedure chart that deals with psionic combat scenarios against a mindflayer and how a combat statistically goes to the best ability of both parties. (human vs Ilithid). if you would like a gander. sorry for the digital outburst. Love you Grognard and an avid watcher of your vids, just needed to chime in on this one.
Hollywood_DM
For more information about the subject NOT in the PHB or DMG, check out Dragon Magazine issue 78 (page 7 where it starts) as it delves into it more as well as a new form of psionic humans known as the Deryni which are just fascinating.
Deryini come from the Katherine Kurtz novels.
@GreyhawkGrognard: I think you've mentioned that you've played Dark Sun. Did you like the 2nd AD&D psionics in that context?
Yes, but 2E psionics are a completely different kettle of fish than 1E.
I managed psionics always in this way. They do not roll for their powers, they just work, but psionics cannot be buffed by magic, and wrote my own ad-hoc psionic powers (Special mention to Palladium RPG 1e when it comes to psionics).
i still dont understand how initiative is determined and how it affects other attacks? ie who gains initiative, how is this inserted into a "regular round" and can say a fighter use a psionic ability THEN swing a sword?
It was all to complex to me Grognard. As far as I would go is Barrier Peaks UFO . It just seems out of place to me.
The way I've always understood Psychic Crush is that the attacker can only defend with Thought Shield in that segment, not that he's automatically defenseless if the Crush fails to kill the target. Am I wrong?
I know I read it that way right before making the video, but darned if I can find it now.
No mention of the Complete Psionics Guide (brown cover)? Maybe another video...
But I agree on your take on it overall.
This video is about 1st edition AD&D. The brown books were for 2nd edition.
I don’t allow it as a PC option. For certain monsters I give them the abilities, but just consider it magical.
🙄🙄
I found it very confusing to use in 1st edition (I think I was 16 when I came across it, so about '83ish), I liked the 2nd edition version more.
🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉🐉
It’s a little worse than that. BTB, you don’t get to pick what defense mode you use. You automatically throw up the best one you have vs the incoming attack.
I thought that was only when there were multiple psionics with different defenses selected, with overlapping areas of effect. (Not the sort of corner case I felt was needed in the video!) Otherwise, you wouldn't have control over how many points you spent in any given segment.
The text from the DMG I was referring to states “b.) Psionically-attacked creatures will automatically throw up a defense if they can do so, and will use the best type (most applicable) they can.” Re-reading that now and I’m thinking it’s for monsters the DM is running and PCs can pick which defense the prefer.
@@scottgregg7994 That's a note for the DM to use for non-player monsters and characters. It's not a prescription for what all psionic-using creatures are required to do.
The 2e Psionicist is my favorite class, but the key word there is 2e. Steve Winter designed a very workable system that I would only fiddle with, but the 1e version is a catastrophe.
Were I a PC in a D&D world, I'd want to be a psionicist because that's a source of power that can achieve great things while not making you beholden to any gods or any other power source. You are the power source, and I really dig that sense of self-sufficiency.
Never really used it. Never really understood it.
Today: the only PC class I would allow to have psionics would be the monk.
And I’d still make it very rare.
And if they had the mental ability, they’d lose physical combat abilities.
Almost a monk subclass.
"Psionics in AD&D 1st Edition" was really really awfully presented and detailed and (apparently? / seemingly?) not at all properly play tested before inclusion and aside from the abilities of (a few of the) psionic NPC monsters to be used against non-psionic PCs was best left ignored and never ever used ;p .. OK, just popping my personal 'lived experience' in first. I'll give what you have to say on it a listen later ;)
Ah, the thing I bring up when people talk about things that are weird/full on bad in older editions. THAC0 is counter-intuitive, sure, but TSR era psionics were some eldritch rule systems.
Rename Psionics to Sorcery, suddenly the mechanic seems to fit better overall, albeit needlessly complex.
I liked how Psionics was redone in AD&D 2nd Edition. In first edition, it was just there to ignore.