I also doubt it's correct. Everything in Lars' drumming suggests that the accents are on the beat and they cut part of the riff off at the end of the verse.
@Emil P.W.S Holmgren Music no this is correct and the way they intended it to sound. Lars always accents upbeats. Just listen to battery. He hits crashes on the upbeat throughout all the fast parts. Same with blackened. If you literally count out the song you will hear that it's supposed to sound this way, but most people's ears hear it flipped and it's really hard to hear it the way it was intended
this is one good example on how lars is incredibly misunderstood as a player as he puts it: he's not the greatest drummer in the world, but he is the greatest drummer in the world to play alongside james' rhythm guitar. the way he does it is that he matches james' percussive-ness on the rhythm guitar. a lot of the "lars-sisism" that people hear is actually lars trying to emulate the rhythm guitar on the drums. in this case, the snare is off-beat and actually drops on the power chords of the main rhythm guitar riff. another good example is with battery and how lars plays the toms to mimic the main riff of battery. as a songwriter and musician, lars' style is a big influence on my own songwriting. maybe not in a very in-your-face lars-isistic way, but taking cues from his philosophy and applying it to my very bass-heavy, bass-centric dance-club pop compositions.
I would say it's actually kind of the opposite - James is writing guitar riffs like a drum beat (that's why a lot of the accented power chords are on the offbeats - he's treating it like a snare, whereas the low notes are like the bass drum). But yes, the drum and guitar parts work together really well.
The snare is on the beat. It's where it normally is for that kind of drum beat. It's that the chords land on 4 (or the &s of 2 and 4, depending on how it's counted). Since that usually doesn't happen, the brain wants to shift the riff to make the chords land on the 1, or, at the very least, 1 and 3. That then shifts the drumbeat to have the snare land on 1 and 3 instead of 2 and 4.
well, we dont have to guess. There is footage of metallica without lars. and as a matter of fact.... Dave Lombardo put lars to shame by a wide margin. So Lars is not even the best drummer to play with james. Joey Jordinson killed it too.
It's because Lars plays the drum rhythm like the guitar, he works directly with James on everything. Once you realize that it's pretty clear what they are doing. :)
Right, exactly. That's why people get confused because most bands the drummer will play with the bass. But Lars really only locks in on James, thus giving everything an off-feel - but it's not off, it's just casual listeners not knowing who to lock into.
I've noticed a similar thing on the song Orion. Around the point when the second riff is being played, Lars locks in on the guitar riff and goes with it on the latter half of the riff, which creates an off kilter feel to the beat.
Lars works with metallica. Allot of things. Maybe his drumming is just that of that the riffs also form a bit strange but turned out cool. Or the other way around. The guitars and drums did create some truly unique sounding albums. I personally think lars is a guitarists drummers. Drumming from the riffs instead of starting with the drums. Anyway it worked to create some killer records. And he did kinda pioneer a certain style. in personally like it when things aren't metronome perfect and bit theorethical stubborn at times. Brings live to them.
@blue cactus man, that would mean something to me if I was on board the "St. Anger bad" bandwagon... but I'm not 🤷♂️ Try forming an original opinion next time
Fight Fire With Fire was the very first Metallica track I heard back in 1986 as a 13 year old. Here I am now, aged 50 and still listening to Thrash/Death metal because of it. Undoubtedly, this track changed my life.
Same with me, also 1986 but 3 years older when I heard Fight fire with fire and I was amazed how people could like this sort of .... euh.... trash. But it wasn't trash, it was thrash. Anyway, I skipped back to another album I borrowed and although heavy I liked that. It was Iron Maiden's Piece of mind. After being a Queen fan since I can remember this was certainly a nudge heavier. It took me a few listens to really appreciate Metallica, but FFwF was just so in your face from the start... I really had to get into it.
@@funlovingvoyeur Yep. I was the same!!! Loved Queen when I was about 6 and got into Maiden when I was about 10. Fight Fire With Fire certainly raised the bar for intensity. The I heard Slayers Reign In Blood!!!! 😂
This is SO COOL. The verse section sounds super weird and honestly not great, but the end of verse had such a cool swinging vibe to it! And the chorus too! These Straight Beat™ videos are super helpful, so I'm definitely looking forward to more :D
Must say, your kit sounds damn awesome! Also, I've been listening to this song for 30 years and never understood this groove. It's like I'm hearing it for the first time and it's freaking me out.
Like the video explains, everyone has their own interpretation of reading time. Nothing underrated about it. He did his job. If anything, It's the vocal placement that is the most unique.
Lars could barely play drums when Metallica was formed and I don’t know if he took lessons, I think he was just passionate and dedicated and learned how to play by feel , his beat in that song is on the backbeat and double timed that’s how it’s sounds to me but again I’m willing to bet by feel 🥁
He did take lessons between KEM and RTL, mainly to get double-bass down better. There's an interview from the mid-80s where he talks about taking lessons to tighten the screws a bit.
This is a great explanation of the timing! I just always played it thinking the vocals hit on the downbeat, with a small 'turnaround' into the next part, but this now makes total sense - fine job!
Thanks for sorta demystifying this magic that I’ve always thought about with Metallica. It’s part of what makes Metallica so legendary. Those weird moments like that. That thrash beat, always fucks with my head and my internal metronome. The way the beat purposefully does not line up. So weird
It's so weird but interesting. It seemed so slow when you played it with the straight beat. My brain melted the whole way through 🤣 A great example of how Lars is to me one of the best drummers of all time , not technically but his understanding of music 👌 🤘
Being able to count along with Fight Fire with Fire took quite a few listens before I felt confident I had it right. A song that took me a little while to wrap my head around the count was March Of The Pigs by Nine Inch Nails. It does 3 measures of 7/8 then a single measure of 4/4, it is effectively in 29/8 time.
Lars actually does the straight groove thing himself on Blackened. After the guitar solo sections he plays a straight 7/4 groove. He also actually plays an extra eighth note because at the end of the second bar of that groove. The reason is because they all come in an eighth not early out of the solo.
He made a video about this! It's actually Lars that came one eighth note late, then he corrects it with a smaller fill. Search for "How Lars tricked us in Blackened"
Even though I know the correct way, I still can’t hear it due to the speed and the crashes that aren’t on the 1 😢 Also, you ever thought of making a vid about Lars’ weird drum habits? Especially always crashing on the two? Never heard another drummer who does it so consistently
Oh god this reminds me of when you first jam with a new musician and you start playing a popular song that they don't know at all and you only play a riff or two because what they're playing hurts your soul to the very core. 😣
holy fucking shit, I saw your other videos about this, but this one ACTUALLY blew my mind and I can finally hear what u were talking about in those other videos, this is gonna help me learn the song, thx
The 1 on this song was always on Hetfield's riffing. Even from the first time hearing this back it was realized that going along with Lars would throw you off if you thought in terms of straight beats.
Oh my God, thank you for posting this. I have always heard early Metallica songs “upside down” always hearing the two and four of Lar’s playing as one and three and it makes it impossible for me to unlearn the song the wrong way all these years later.
There are several songs where I feel the beat incorrectly, Fight Fire is one of them. Out of all the songs with this issue, I managed to fix... just one. I know how the rest are *supposed* to feel, but I can't condition myself to hear them correctly. A full cover with a straight drum beat would be appreciated, maybe it can help me fix at least this song.
This has nothing to do with lars not knowing what he's doing. It's just that the song is so fast that the offbeat snares sound like the onbeat. Sounds like you just have no idea what this video is about lol
Playing this song and all the other Metallica on Guitar Hero Metallica really helped me understand more of Lars' timing and feel. On top of that, dude's got some great stamina.
I’m glad someone addressed this. This song always messed with my head because I was pretty sure he wasn’t playing the snare on the beats, but it really is difficult to hear it any other way. It doesn’t help that he hits the crashes with the snare, but Lars always loves doing that. If I were him, I would start the drums more the way you did with a clean quarter note feel, then maybe halfway through each verse switch to the double time feel once it’s already been established.
Yes please make the full song fight fire with fire with a straight beat. I'd love to finally hear the solo section in time because I always hear it flipped
Mike, when you do these Time Signature Enlightenment Videos, you really do shed a whole new perspective on the material at hand. Kick Start My Heart by Motley Crue was a prime example where you provided clarity to the very confusing guitar rhythm time signature during the intro preluding the main riff to the song. Without you Mike, I would still be F'n up that part of Kick Start My Heart. I love your channel bro and I love everything that you touch on, explore and teach. You are a rock star in your own right my friend and I salute you. 🤘
Fun fact: Lars' original beat is just as straight as yours - it's just double time, or yours is half time, whichever way you want to see it. The way most people understand the term "straight" means that it's not shuffle (more or less swung eighth notes). Apart from that, this really clears some things up, nice work and all the best! :)
The sections after the solo and harmony sections (where the steady double bass kicks in) sometimes throw my ear off too. I think part of what makes it tricky is James saving accented power chords for the upbeats with the snare, similar to "Battery", which also took me a while to count correctly.
Yeah, that's the way they write these fast riffs - the guitar is very similar to the drums in the way that the low notes are like the bass drum and the high notes are like the snare. And that's how Fight Fire with Fire makes sense - it's just the "skank beat" but played on guitar. Same applies to Blackened.
Old fart checking in... Understanding this idiosyncratic beat/riff dovetails with understanding the origins of thrash in hardcore punk from the early '80s. Dudes playing this music and pushing the boundaries of technique largely didn't know what they were doing. It was usually an act of brute force and will. Lots of iconic riffs and beats from this era were just dudes spazzing out in fits of rage using pure willpower to wrangle them into something repeatable and coherent. Sadly the production values on recordings from this era is so low it's challenging to truly appreciate how groundbreaking a lot of this stuff was. Witnessing it happen at the time was glorious.
Ever since you covered this topic the last time, I've found myself counting the 1 then hitting the first chord on the and, which like you said changes the whole characteristic of the track!
Mike, I hate to disagree. But this is clearly a case of old school 80's rushing and flipping the beat. It happened in thrash -a lot. Pauses for riff re alignment etc were common place as were tempo jumps and clipped (drop an 8th or 1/4 note) bars. I think you found a sick nuance in overthinking it. But the band is definitely counting the "Do" in the verse as 1. These guys were drunk, speedy, thrashers with no click. Expect no more. No Less.
Thank you thank you THANK YOU!!! Exactly as you’ve described I have heard this wrong for decades and just got used to it, accepting my fate. Worse part is, that’s one of my favourite tracks on RtL!! You’ve just untangled a mystery and even after your 1 playthrough I’m hearing it in the proper light! Keep up the outstanding work and disregard these morons in the comments saying otherwise!
I love how the different drumming makes the riff sound different, kind of like what happens with the Blackened riff after the solo. I thought it still sounded awesome, off because we're not used to it, but it still sounded fire!
In the verses, my brain translates the snare hitting every downbeat at 180 bmp. That's how I always hear fast aggressive Metallica style stuff in my head for some reason.
I don't think of it as off beat I think of it as double time. Eighties thrash did that a lot, it's just essentially a march rhythm played as fast as you can hack it
Sounds like Lars had and important input in the song. Which is odd bc people seem to think he does nothing for the band. Good video. Your videos are great.
for everyone saying that this is incorrect, it isnt. for me personally, the riff between the verse and chorus is pretty easy to listen to with the kick on the downbeat and snare on the upbeat. if you listen to the transition from verse riff into that in between riff while putting the snare on the down beat like most of us "hear" during the verse, you will end up having the crash hit right before the chorus being an eighth note too soon. my theory since i heard this song for the first time is that metallica wanted it to be the snare on the downbeat during the verse and the kick on the downbeat during the in between riff, but since that would require a double up on either the kick or the snare which would be difficult to play live and sound bumpy and awkward, they added an extra eighth note before the verse vocals come in. this allows the illusion that the snare is the downbeat during the verse and the upbeat during the other riff, while maintaining a smooth transition without an awkward double up. if you pay attention to their body movements during live performances, they count with the snare on the downbeat during the verse and kick on the downbeat during the second part. imo its much easier to listen and play as if the last measure of the verse riff is written in 7/8. so even though snare on upbeat is technically correct, i think that there isn't necessarily a right or wrong way to listen/play it. TL:DR - I think metallica intended for the snare to be on the downbeat during the verse, but because of the speed and complexity of a transition from snare on down to upbeat in between verse and post verse riffs, they just decided to delay the start of the verse vocals by 1 eighth note and "count" the last verse measure as 7/8 even if it is technically 4/4 (mike i think this might be a cool video idea: record it with snare on downbeat during verse and then have that double up transition to snare on upbeat during post verse riff, i think that could be pretty trippy and unnerving to listen to) i hope this made sense to people cuz for me it does but idk how well i did explaining my thoughts. :)
I feel like listening really closely the way it was 'meant' to be heard reveals some slight timing issues. If you listen closely to the original track, lars and cliff hit the first stab a little late. So it bends the 'ah' of 1 almost to the downbeat. I think this just tricks your mind into thinking it IS the downbeat, and that's really early on in the song. The bulk of the song is a lot less complicated sounding with the riff changes, hearing it now the right way, but lars still feels more locked in with james if I hear it the old way. Maybe my brain just autocorrects timing better when it's focused on the downbeat. Really cool though, I had always thought that after the solo, james starts playing in a weird spot and in my brain, the drums click from the on beat to the off-beat. Hearing it the right way, it makes a lot more sense
It's similar to this. But in that song, the vocals make the downbeat more obvious, since the vocals actually follow the strong beats, whereas in Fight Fire, James is also singing on the offbeats.
I haven’t listened to this in like a decade, but this is tripping me out a little. I always thought it was “Do” on beat 2, like it’s the second beat of the snare in a sequence of eighth notes that go: snare(1)bass(&)snare(2)bass(&)snare(3)bass(&)snare(4)bass(&)
It must have been James' idea to do this rhytm illussion. Even Lars misses the first stabs in the very begining of the song, like he didn't fully understand the timing. I was one of those guys who added a querter note in the end of the main riff and subtracted a quarter note in the end of the second riff and hopped for the best. Not the best approach. But hearing it with a straight beat sounds so Load/Reload era, this must be how they hear it too.
If you try compute the main riff sounds like it has 14 beats in it (14/8 or 14/16), NOT 16 (which would translate to 4/4) That's why the main beat goes like it does, 6x2 + 3 + 1 (break) I guess it's kinda less obvious to some people but the guitar strokes actually accent it clearly
That was the worst thing I’ve ever heard please never do that again
I also doubt it's correct. Everything in Lars' drumming suggests that the accents are on the beat and they cut part of the riff off at the end of the verse.
😂
@Emil P.W.S Holmgren Music no this is correct and the way they intended it to sound. Lars always accents upbeats. Just listen to battery. He hits crashes on the upbeat throughout all the fast parts. Same with blackened. If you literally count out the song you will hear that it's supposed to sound this way, but most people's ears hear it flipped and it's really hard to hear it the way it was intended
Bro, I have the same pfp lol.
aaah no
this is one good example on how lars is incredibly misunderstood as a player
as he puts it: he's not the greatest drummer in the world, but he is the greatest drummer in the world to play alongside james' rhythm guitar.
the way he does it is that he matches james' percussive-ness on the rhythm guitar.
a lot of the "lars-sisism" that people hear is actually lars trying to emulate the rhythm guitar on the drums. in this case, the snare is off-beat and actually drops on the power chords of the main rhythm guitar riff.
another good example is with battery and how lars plays the toms to mimic the main riff of battery.
as a songwriter and musician, lars' style is a big influence on my own songwriting. maybe not in a very in-your-face lars-isistic way, but taking cues from his philosophy and applying it to my very bass-heavy, bass-centric dance-club pop compositions.
I would say it's actually kind of the opposite - James is writing guitar riffs like a drum beat (that's why a lot of the accented power chords are on the offbeats - he's treating it like a snare, whereas the low notes are like the bass drum). But yes, the drum and guitar parts work together really well.
The snare is on the beat. It's where it normally is for that kind of drum beat. It's that the chords land on 4 (or the &s of 2 and 4, depending on how it's counted). Since that usually doesn't happen, the brain wants to shift the riff to make the chords land on the 1, or, at the very least, 1 and 3. That then shifts the drumbeat to have the snare land on 1 and 3 instead of 2 and 4.
I’m pretty sure James could have figured it out with another drummer lol
well, we dont have to guess. There is footage of metallica without lars. and as a matter of fact.... Dave Lombardo put lars to shame by a wide margin. So Lars is not even the best drummer to play with james. Joey Jordinson killed it too.
@@MongoJoeMeathookNo. Jordison severely overplayed when he was onstage with Metallica, and I didn't sound right.
That straight beat was the most cursed shit I’ve ever heard lol, wild how that small change threw the song off so much to my ear
It's because Lars plays the drum rhythm like the guitar, he works directly with James on everything. Once you realize that it's pretty clear what they are doing. :)
Right, exactly. That's why people get confused because most bands the drummer will play with the bass. But Lars really only locks in on James, thus giving everything an off-feel - but it's not off, it's just casual listeners not knowing who to lock into.
I've noticed a similar thing on the song Orion. Around the point when the second riff is being played, Lars locks in on the guitar riff and goes with it on the latter half of the riff, which creates an off kilter feel to the beat.
@@mattdad8429 ohh damn dude your right ... I’ve always felt like the drums where off
Well Said!!! Lars is a awesome Drummer for the style he plays 🤘
That sounds so weird! 😂
I honestly don’t know if I want to be able to hear it like this. The transition to the second riff finally makes sense though.
Almost like Lars is creative and talented or something
No he's bad and st anger bad
@@neonbelly4 FUNNY ST ANGER SNARE HE FOCKING LEFT THE BAND
Lars works with metallica. Allot of things. Maybe his drumming is just that of that the riffs also form a bit strange but turned out cool. Or the other way around. The guitars and drums did create some truly unique sounding albums. I personally think lars is a guitarists drummers. Drumming from the riffs instead of starting with the drums. Anyway it worked to create some killer records. And he did kinda pioneer a certain style. in personally like it when things aren't metronome perfect and bit theorethical stubborn at times. Brings live to them.
Was
@blue cactus man, that would mean something to me if I was on board the "St. Anger bad" bandwagon... but I'm not 🤷♂️ Try forming an original opinion next time
Fight Fire With Fire was the very first Metallica track I heard back in 1986 as a 13 year old. Here I am now, aged 50 and still listening to Thrash/Death metal because of it. Undoubtedly, this track changed my life.
Same with me, also 1986 but 3 years older when I heard Fight fire with fire and I was amazed how people could like this sort of .... euh.... trash. But it wasn't trash, it was thrash. Anyway, I skipped back to another album I borrowed and although heavy I liked that. It was Iron Maiden's Piece of mind. After being a Queen fan since I can remember this was certainly a nudge heavier. It took me a few listens to really appreciate Metallica, but FFwF was just so in your face from the start... I really had to get into it.
@@funlovingvoyeur Yep. I was the same!!! Loved Queen when I was about 6 and got into Maiden when I was about 10. Fight Fire With Fire certainly raised the bar for intensity. The I heard Slayers Reign In Blood!!!! 😂
It was also the 1st Metallica song Flea, of The Red Hot Chili Peppers heard, and is his personal favorite.
My first song as well, but it was 1988 or 1989 for me and I was only 9 or 10. It really is a great first impression.
Same here. This was first Metallica song I heard - it was like having scales removed from my eyes, and the world looked very different afterwards
These comparison videos are my favorite. This was a treat. 😊
Love them too
This is SO COOL. The verse section sounds super weird and honestly not great, but the end of verse had such a cool swinging vibe to it! And the chorus too!
These Straight Beat™ videos are super helpful, so I'm definitely looking forward to more :D
The straight beat with crash actually sounds amazing on the interlude/pre-chorus part
Your obsession with metal is healthy 🫡
Must say, your kit sounds damn awesome! Also, I've been listening to this song for 30 years and never understood this groove. It's like I'm hearing it for the first time and it's freaking me out.
The sound you’re getting out of that kit is perfect 👌
Fight Fire with Fire in a straight beat is cursed
Just goes to show how underrated Lars truly is.
Like the video explains, everyone has their own interpretation of reading time. Nothing underrated about it. He did his job. If anything, It's the vocal placement that is the most unique.
Lars could barely play drums when Metallica was formed and I don’t know if he took lessons, I think he was just passionate and dedicated and learned how to play by feel , his beat in that song is on the backbeat and double timed that’s how it’s sounds to me but again I’m willing to bet by feel 🥁
He did take lessons between KEM and RTL, mainly to get double-bass down better. There's an interview from the mid-80s where he talks about taking lessons to tighten the screws a bit.
This is a great explanation of the timing! I just always played it thinking the vocals hit on the downbeat, with a small 'turnaround' into the next part, but this now makes total sense - fine job!
I find it funny how even the slightest of nudges in the beat makes it sound like a completely different song
My brain really wasnt ready to hear that!
That's fucking mind blowing, it changes everything
Been listening to that track since the 80s it’s ingrained in me. Feels like my soul was out of whack for a few minutes. Absolutely terrifying
Thanks for sorta demystifying this magic that I’ve always thought about with Metallica. It’s part of what makes Metallica so legendary. Those weird moments like that. That thrash beat, always fucks with my head and my internal metronome. The way the beat purposefully does not line up. So weird
It's so weird but interesting. It seemed so slow when you played it with the straight beat. My brain melted the whole way through 🤣
A great example of how Lars is to me one of the best drummers of all time , not technically but his understanding of music 👌 🤘
With the straight beat, the guitar become clearer, and easier to learn. Thank you!
Stems for Metallica tracks are pretty easy to find thanks to Guitar Hero Metallica if you ever need to hear specific instruments for their songs
Yeah I also have a problem avoiding putting the riffs and vocals on the first beat.
Being able to count along with Fight Fire with Fire took quite a few listens before I felt confident I had it right.
A song that took me a little while to wrap my head around the count was March Of The Pigs by Nine Inch Nails.
It does 3 measures of 7/8 then a single measure of 4/4, it is effectively in 29/8 time.
Easier to think of that as 4 bars of 7/8 with an extra 8th note imo
Life was easier when I could just listen to and enjoy music without having to figure out the time, tempo and key of every song I listen to
Why the hell would anybody count it in 29/8, that makes absolutely no sense. That's like saying Hey Ya is in 22/4
never had this with metallica, but had this with my own band quite a few times lol
hearing it with a standard beat messes me up though. whats the bet it wasn't intentional but a complete mistake they just went with lol
Lars actually does the straight groove thing himself on Blackened. After the guitar solo sections he plays a straight 7/4 groove. He also actually plays an extra eighth note because at the end of the second bar of that groove. The reason is because they all come in an eighth not early out of the solo.
He made a video about this! It's actually Lars that came one eighth note late, then he corrects it with a smaller fill. Search for "How Lars tricked us in Blackened"
Shows how important the original drum beat is in this song🤘
That was pretty bananas! Never could get the timing to feel right whenever I’ve tried to play along with that one. Now I know why.
Even though I know the correct way, I still can’t hear it due to the speed and the crashes that aren’t on the 1 😢
Also, you ever thought of making a vid about Lars’ weird drum habits? Especially always crashing on the two? Never heard another drummer who does it so consistently
Pretty sure he has made a video about Lar's style and habits
EDIT: Yep thought so ua-cam.com/video/B1mMNVcFxpw/v-deo.html&ab_channel=The-Art-of-Guitar
Same. I don't think I'll ever be able to hear it correctly. The incorrect way is just too ingrained into my head
Oh god this reminds me of when you first jam with a new musician and you start playing a popular song that they don't know at all and you only play a riff or two because what they're playing hurts your soul to the very core. 😣
Been trying to dial in on that timing since I was 12 years old! This is soooooo satisfying!! Thank you!!
holy fucking shit, I saw your other videos about this, but this one ACTUALLY blew my mind and I can finally hear what u were talking about in those other videos, this is gonna help me learn the song, thx
Thanks a million. Trying to "understand" where the 1 was in this song has always been agony. Please make more videos like this.
The 1 on this song was always on Hetfield's riffing. Even from the first time hearing this back it was realized that going along with Lars would throw you off if you thought in terms of straight beats.
My mind exploded. Thanks. Now I have to learn counting it off beat against still having the feeling that the one is on "Do".
Oh man! I knew the vocals and guitar accents were on the off beat but to hear it like this.... 🤯🤯🤯
Oh my God, thank you for posting this. I have always heard early Metallica songs “upside down” always hearing the two and four of Lar’s playing as one and three and it makes it impossible for me to unlearn the song the wrong way all these years later.
🤘🔥🤘🔥 this was great, I love your drum videos, you always look so happy when you're playing 🙂
i'm speechless, i'm without speech.. you've turned 30+ years of my life inside out🤣🤣🤣
and you have got a new subscriber!!
There are several songs where I feel the beat incorrectly, Fight Fire is one of them. Out of all the songs with this issue, I managed to fix... just one. I know how the rest are *supposed* to feel, but I can't condition myself to hear them correctly.
A full cover with a straight drum beat would be appreciated, maybe it can help me fix at least this song.
Lars really does know what he’s doing-not shocking to me.
does he though?
@@ArtHazard Yes he does, he's just not the most technically proficient of execusing it. But Lars is great at finding the right beat for a given song.
He has like a billion dollars. So yeah he’s doing it right.
This has nothing to do with lars not knowing what he's doing. It's just that the song is so fast that the offbeat snares sound like the onbeat. Sounds like you just have no idea what this video is about lol
You just turned this masterpiece into an old school Testament song!!!!!
Playing this song and all the other Metallica on Guitar Hero Metallica really helped me understand more of Lars' timing and feel.
On top of that, dude's got some great stamina.
I’m glad someone addressed this. This song always messed with my head because I was pretty sure he wasn’t playing the snare on the beats, but it really is difficult to hear it any other way. It doesn’t help that he hits the crashes with the snare, but Lars always loves doing that. If I were him, I would start the drums more the way you did with a clean quarter note feel, then maybe halfway through each verse switch to the double time feel once it’s already been established.
Thank you very much for that. Who knew education could be delivered with a good laugh. That started my day properly there.
Yes please make the full song fight fire with fire with a straight beat. I'd love to finally hear the solo section in time because I always hear it flipped
Mike, when you do these Time Signature Enlightenment Videos, you really do shed a whole new perspective on the material at hand. Kick Start My Heart by Motley Crue was a prime example where you provided clarity to the very confusing guitar rhythm time signature during the intro preluding the main riff to the song. Without you Mike, I would still be F'n up that part of Kick Start My Heart. I love your channel bro and I love everything that you touch on, explore and teach. You are a rock star in your own right my friend and I salute you. 🤘
That comment mentions TWO Mötley Crüe songs, both on the same album.
This song has ALWAYS baffled me, I thought they were doing some fancy counting. Thank you for letting me know I'm not crazy!
Fun fact: Lars' original beat is just as straight as yours - it's just double time, or yours is half time, whichever way you want to see it. The way most people understand the term "straight" means that it's not shuffle (more or less swung eighth notes). Apart from that, this really clears some things up, nice work and all the best! :)
Old Metallica being quote en quote "wrong" is part of what made it so special, like this, and the 32nd thing in puppets etc.
The sections after the solo and harmony sections (where the steady double bass kicks in) sometimes throw my ear off too. I think part of what makes it tricky is James saving accented power chords for the upbeats with the snare, similar to "Battery", which also took me a while to count correctly.
Yeah, that's the way they write these fast riffs - the guitar is very similar to the drums in the way that the low notes are like the bass drum and the high notes are like the snare. And that's how Fight Fire with Fire makes sense - it's just the "skank beat" but played on guitar.
Same applies to Blackened.
Lars is like ringo star of the beatles, they may be not a greatest drummer, but they fits the band perfectly
Great explanation this helps as im learning the guitar tracks and couldn’t count it out right.
Yup! I’ve been hearing this song wrong for nearly 4 decades 😂
This helps a lot, thank you 🙏
That song is so dope.
Old fart checking in... Understanding this idiosyncratic beat/riff dovetails with understanding the origins of thrash in hardcore punk from the early '80s. Dudes playing this music and pushing the boundaries of technique largely didn't know what they were doing. It was usually an act of brute force and will. Lots of iconic riffs and beats from this era were just dudes spazzing out in fits of rage using pure willpower to wrangle them into something repeatable and coherent. Sadly the production values on recordings from this era is so low it's challenging to truly appreciate how groundbreaking a lot of this stuff was. Witnessing it happen at the time was glorious.
THANK YOU!!! I was always aware of this, it's so satisfying hearing it with that clearer rhythm
Ever since you covered this topic the last time, I've found myself counting the 1 then hitting the first chord on the and, which like you said changes the whole characteristic of the track!
Very cool breakdown! Never thought of it that way
I’ve been waiting for this. 🎉
It's always so hard for me to go to the second riff after verse, while playing guitar and to be exactly on point with James.
Mike, I hate to disagree. But this is clearly a case of old school 80's rushing and flipping the beat. It happened in thrash -a lot. Pauses for riff re alignment etc were common place as were tempo jumps and clipped (drop an 8th or 1/4 note) bars. I think you found a sick nuance in overthinking it. But the band is definitely counting the "Do" in the verse as 1. These guys were drunk, speedy, thrashers with no click. Expect no more. No Less.
Thank you thank you THANK YOU!!! Exactly as you’ve described I have heard this wrong for decades and just got used to it, accepting my fate. Worse part is, that’s one of my favourite tracks on RtL!! You’ve just untangled a mystery and even after your 1 playthrough I’m hearing it in the proper light! Keep up the outstanding work and disregard these morons in the comments saying otherwise!
Totally mindblown.... Totally right about hearing it right for the first time, damn!
It sounds so sick like that!
I love how the different drumming makes the riff sound different, kind of like what happens with the Blackened riff after the solo.
I thought it still sounded awesome, off because we're not used to it, but it still sounded fire!
That second riff makes so much more sense now!
Video of the year!!!!
But it’s only February. Haha. ;) jk thank you.
In the verses, my brain translates the snare hitting every downbeat at 180 bmp. That's how I always hear fast aggressive Metallica style stuff in my head for some reason.
I don't think of it as off beat I think of it as double time. Eighties thrash did that a lot, it's just essentially a march rhythm played as fast as you can hack it
Professional drummer and longtime Metallica fan here. My brain is officially blowing up. whaaaaAAA?? That is NUTS.
And while I'm here.....a simple boost of that kick drum level in the mixing process would have made it *totally* clear from the beginning!
The straight beat against the main riff sounded so weird, I was having a hard time following along at times
i would love a video with your opinion about Brian Downey from thin lizzy. he is a really underrated drummer.
The syncopation has thrown me off for decades. I know how it's supposed to be but can never hear it correctly. This may actually help!
I'm in the same boat as you! The part that always gets me is the transition to the pre-chorus riff
You uncovered one of my biggest musical question marks and I thank you for that 🤘
Damn, still anticipating that drum mix video there was talk about before! =O
Sounds like Lars had and important input in the song. Which is odd bc people seem to think he does nothing for the band. Good video. Your videos are great.
Amazing Video man.. Made me look at this song so differently..
lol, the timing is one of the reasons fight fire with fire is one of the more difficult ones to get "right"
I had no issues before with this song. Could play, could count. Or so I thought until watching this video. It'll never be the same again
for everyone saying that this is incorrect, it isnt. for me personally, the riff between the verse and chorus is pretty easy to listen to with the kick on the downbeat and snare on the upbeat. if you listen to the transition from verse riff into that in between riff while putting the snare on the down beat like most of us "hear" during the verse, you will end up having the crash hit right before the chorus being an eighth note too soon.
my theory since i heard this song for the first time is that metallica wanted it to be the snare on the downbeat during the verse and the kick on the downbeat during the in between riff, but since that would require a double up on either the kick or the snare which would be difficult to play live and sound bumpy and awkward, they added an extra eighth note before the verse vocals come in. this allows the illusion that the snare is the downbeat during the verse and the upbeat during the other riff, while maintaining a smooth transition without an awkward double up. if you pay attention to their body movements during live performances, they count with the snare on the downbeat during the verse and kick on the downbeat during the second part. imo its much easier to listen and play as if the last measure of the verse riff is written in 7/8.
so even though snare on upbeat is technically correct, i think that there isn't necessarily a right or wrong way to listen/play it.
TL:DR - I think metallica intended for the snare to be on the downbeat during the verse, but because of the speed and complexity of a transition from snare on down to upbeat in between verse and post verse riffs, they just decided to delay the start of the verse vocals by 1 eighth note and "count" the last verse measure as 7/8 even if it is technically 4/4
(mike i think this might be a cool video idea: record it with snare on downbeat during verse and then have that double up transition to snare on upbeat during post verse riff, i think that could be pretty trippy and unnerving to listen to)
i hope this made sense to people cuz for me it does but idk how well i did explaining my thoughts. :)
Wow, mind blown, was hearing this wrong for almost 20 years
I feel like listening really closely the way it was 'meant' to be heard reveals some slight timing issues. If you listen closely to the original track, lars and cliff hit the first stab a little late. So it bends the 'ah' of 1 almost to the downbeat. I think this just tricks your mind into thinking it IS the downbeat, and that's really early on in the song. The bulk of the song is a lot less complicated sounding with the riff changes, hearing it now the right way, but lars still feels more locked in with james if I hear it the old way. Maybe my brain just autocorrects timing better when it's focused on the downbeat. Really cool though, I had always thought that after the solo, james starts playing in a weird spot and in my brain, the drums click from the on beat to the off-beat. Hearing it the right way, it makes a lot more sense
I ve just learned this riff! Thanks!
That was wild 👏👏🤯😳
Really interesting to hear a different take on it. I weirdly liked it 😆
Can you please do this with Battery? I can’t figure out if Lars is slipping between off and on beats or if it’s another song like this one. :)
yes please!
It's similar to this. But in that song, the vocals make the downbeat more obvious, since the vocals actually follow the strong beats, whereas in Fight Fire, James is also singing on the offbeats.
I haven’t listened to this in like a decade, but this is tripping me out a little. I always thought it was “Do” on beat 2, like it’s the second beat of the snare in a sequence of eighth notes that go: snare(1)bass(&)snare(2)bass(&)snare(3)bass(&)snare(4)bass(&)
You are just opened my mind!!!
WHAT THE HELL YOU HAVE JUST GIVEN ME NIGHTMARES
It must have been James' idea to do this rhytm illussion. Even Lars misses the first stabs in the very begining of the song, like he didn't fully understand the timing. I was one of those guys who added a querter note in the end of the main riff and subtracted a quarter note in the end of the second riff and hopped for the best. Not the best approach. But hearing it with a straight beat sounds so Load/Reload era, this must be how they hear it too.
Thank you pal. Have a great day.
You've done such a great level of homework on this thing. This for me is a bit like how the timing for Battery is also tricky. Hmmm
That art to the left of your head in the video looks familiar. Is it a William Ronald piece by chance?
This made me think of Mike Schank, RIP
THis is exacty right. The down beat is NOT on the snare as many many many people think.
Thanks for explaining! 👏👏
Nice concept⚡️
Its simple.. it starts on the snare. This actually complicates it more the way you are trying to explain it.
If you try compute the main riff sounds like it has 14 beats in it (14/8 or 14/16), NOT 16 (which would translate to 4/4)
That's why the main beat goes like it does, 6x2 + 3 + 1 (break)
I guess it's kinda less obvious to some people but the guitar strokes actually accent it clearly
[[[[