You'll need a support bearing on the other end of the motor shaft if you want to run more power. Without it you're relying entirely on the bearing in the motor to resist the sideways force on the shaft caused by tension in the chain. That's a significant lever arm
@@NGC1433 No, you still want a support shaft. Brushless motors especially pancake motors were not designed for having sideways force on the shaft at all. They are meant to spin balanced props. He would need an inruner motor if he plans to run without a support bearing. Even then it's always better to have one as the petrol engine has a gearbox with a fat shaft real close to the casing which supports all the side force. The shafts are strong ad designed for that application. The bottom line is he needs bearing support if he's going to run any serious power and wants it to last for a while.
Previous Electric Go-Kart mechanic here: First issue I see is as you pointed out, the ESC has no idea where the motor is in its rotation. That black wire coming off the motor is the encoder signal that the ESC uses to determine the position of the motor. We had issues if the encoder became out of sync or out of calibration or even just outright die, the motor would do funny things like make noise or stutter in it's rotation. This is probably why the first controller you used did not work, it was looking for that signal and couldn't do much without it. Our karts used a motor controller/inverter known as a Sevcon. They are about $300-$500 USD online for the models we had and our karts ran at a nominal 48v and max amperage of 100 amps. 100 amps was programmed as it was just below the max 120 amp output of the 16 nominal 3.2v LiFePo4 batteries in series to create the 48v. There is an alternative that has become popular that the kart manufacturer switched to known as Curtis controllers. Both controllers are pretty well-designed and we had little issues with the Sevcons, we did have one Sevcon that the battery terminal melted but that I had determined it was due to a loose/bad connection. I left the company shortly after they got a new fleet of karts that used the Curtis system so I can't speak to the their long term use but a lot of online shops that sold motor kits, included a Curtis controller. The only problem with using one of these controllers is the programming cable or software was the expensive part. The programming cord for the Sevcon alone was about $1000 with free software. If you did decide to use one of these, the only issue I can see if you used these is that they are not consumer friendly and require some knowledge of programming the controller to work properly with the motor. I never had to do that, the controllers came pre-programmed and we had a backup file to write to the controller if we ever had to. Though I will mention both of them had a calibration tool for the encoder that would walk you through how to calibrate the encoder so that it was in sync. The Sevcon was a more manual process that you had to take "logs" of the data and put it into the software and it would tell you what to set the encoder to and the Curtis had a one click button and it would go through the calibration process automatically without user input. If you were to pick one, I'd suggest the Curtis of the two. There is another controller that I can't remember the name of but I recall Colin Furze used one on his drift trike and that seemed a lot more user friendly and didn't require expensive software or programming cables. Gear ratio should not be an issue here as our karts had a ratio of 3.636 and had no issue of spinning the tires out from a stand still and I'd assume the weight of the karts aren't too far off the weight of your ATV. It comes down to programming the controller to how much power and torque it uses to get up to speed. If you would like to ask any questions, I'd love to help as much as I can. But I am no expert of the programming side, only the few settings I would have to go in and change like max RPM, throttle input, or calibrating the motor encoder. I'm pretty sure I still have the PDF files of the parts somewhere and could get you exact part numbers of various things like the TPS sensor, batteries, etc. EDIT: I do have those PDFs :)
Thank you for your help here. I just gave him some gems of truth I learned along the way as well. I am wondering about the gear ratio as well. Not so much that it is a problem but that all the motors I had which were sensored traction motors designed to run at low rpm all had very large windings. By large I mean the winding wire was 14-16 gauge single strand. I noticed his motor has fine strand wire and I'm wondering if it is designed to operate at much higher RPM. I hope we can help him to accomplish this with less challenges than you and I have had along the way. One of the easy to program controllers is the Alltrax brand and the Kelly controllers are also good. I have used 3 of the 4 with good success.
@@kevinsellsit5584 I suspect the fine strands are connected many in parallel to improve packing density, and the number of turns would be in the tens *not* thousands!
You are an absolute hero (in terms of YT comments) to write such an in depth comment to help assist. I'm genuinely touched by the effort you've gone to when most comments can't even take the time to appear grammatically correct.
Agreed haha only way to even try to get away with running a sensorless setup in applications like these would be to add a torque converter for some slipping, and to allow for the esc to start to detect the feedback on bldc after “X” rpm’s. Sensored is absolutely the way to go, it’s much more efficient, and the amount of torque gain from precise control is night and day.
Pretty sure the battery for pump of the watercooling loop ran out and therfore killed the esc. I hear no pump running right after the incident Rip ESC..
@@Liace159 plus the improper gearing and sensorless controller means that poor esc was working massively overtime. I’ll be honest though, still love the video, not criticizing as I would have done the exact same thing just to get it moving around while I waited for the big boy esc to show up. The only difference I would have made if I may suggest, is #1, run a dc to dc buck converter to power the water pump off the main batteries, use different batteries in general. I build custom lithium batteries for everything from my 165KW home solar battery, to small desktop projects. By using the lipo cells without either a bms, no temperature monitoring, no balancing, or under voltage protection, it’s potentially dangerous. I’m sure the esc has a low voltage cutoff, just kind of sketchy to rely solely on that to keep the batteries within spec between voltage, overall current draw, and temperature. If interested, I’ll make some suggestions for some either modifications to your current lipos, or how to build an even bigger battery cheaply that’s safe, reliable, and can handle the power demands easily
I'd say first change the gear ratio. That will yield the biggest results and should limit how much current is needed, right? My guess is that the motor can spin much faster than ever needed, so changig gear ratio will not have any real downsides.
No the sensor is extremely important, since the electric motor is running super inefficient without it. Basically it works against itself now, since the timing of turning the electromagnets on is completely off.
@@dryaldibread2327 not really. The ESC uses feedback from the windings to figure out the phase. That's why it works so badly at start from standstill. It's common on escs for RC flight as propellers don't produce much drag in the beginning. But running it like this might kill the motor if the ESC fails to detect the zero crossing.
lets say he get 80kv motor (not KW ...KV meaning rpm per volt) so u get 48v x 80KV =3840rpm x circumference of the tire = around 143.6cm ~ 56.5 inch 3840 rpm x 143.6cm x 60min (because its rpm we need per hour) divide per 1 km = 330.85kmh YUP almost 331kmh divide that with 3.18 gearing = around 104kmh max speed FAST but if he will use sensored mode it will work waaaaaaay better PS U can get VESC for 100V + for around 100-200$
@@fluffigverbimmelt I'm not sure how much heat is generated that can be taken care of using the water cooling system, but dumping it into the chassis is probably not going to do it for two reasons first of all the chassis is made of steel which has pretty poor heat conduction. And second is that the chassis is made of round tubing. That means there's not much surface area to radiate or cool down through convection. And cool down it needs. Just because there's something like 50 pounds of steel to heat up doesn't mean you can just sink the heat into it. That would just accumulate the heat. No the water has to be cooled down. A 240mm PC radiator would probably perform decent but bigger is in this case better. But it shouldn't be to hard to find an old MC radiator which should provide ample cooling if it's needed. Now the expansion tank doesn't need to be all that big. All it's supposed to take care of is the difference in water volume due to thermal expansion. There's really no need to have the water flow through it if you got an inline pump. Just put the expansion tank somewhere high and connect it to the cooling loop at the highest spot using a T-connector and you're done.
I think, for that motor, an additional bearing at the end of the shaft is a necessity. And I strongly suggest FOC. Unfortunately, I can't suggest driver for that motor.
Electric is the way to go, so much fun. I have built my ebike, and I’m using it almost every day except winter. There is a short video of the build in my channel if you are curious.
You need to use a VESC for this kind of use case instead of a regular ESC. VERY IMPORTANT! PLEASE research VESCs before buying any new ESC. When using this size of motors, the ESC/VESC has to be specialy calibrated to that particular Motor. Otherwise, the whole system will burn out at some point because of the high amp draw and voltage. You can do that with VESC, and not with ESC. a hobby ESC is made to output as many amps as needed to do whatever the PWM signal from the radio tells it to do. Even though it says 300A. That doesn't mean that it will cut or limit power at 300A draw to save itself from being damaged. with a VESC you can program an Amp limit draw, and it will adjust the voltage accordingly. Kinda like when you change lipo batteries. This will also save the ESC from amp draw spikes when starting up or doing hard accelerations. This is the key to not constantly burn out ESCs like you seem to do quite often :) Use the sotware called "VESC tool" program the VESC
@Pandacat 666 what he needs is a setup actually designed for purpose , The motor, controller and battery system are tiny - most small kids quads run on 24v or even 36v . he needs a qs138 , 300A controller minimum and say a 72v battery - something similar to what we use on our Electric Quad conversions
simon i know what controller you can use and its much cheaper than flir and co! plus you will be able to use the sensored mode which will give you so much torque that you rip that plastic gear sprocket thingy clean of haha
Before I even watched, I liked. I’ve had my eye on a 50kw outrunner very similar to this, and was wondering when I’d find someone to use a big boy one, how it does with temperature, and how well it’s protected as far as iron filings and dust getting into it over time from kicking up dirt on the road. This thing is gonna be badass man! Thanks for the upload!
Look up Fardriver or Kelly controller, they make "real" motor controllers (made for electric vehicles) which don't go up in flames as they have over current protection. The controllers are actually not more expensive than high power RC controllers, they are around 3000-5000 SEK. They are more tricky to set up, but they are sensored, have FOC and are just better and more reliable in every regard
Just bought a gas powered quad bike but would have gone electric in a heartbeat. Your skills are amazing and these projects are a tinkerer's dream. Would love to see you mod a personal water craft! Keep doing what you do for those of us who cannot. 🥰 Also, you realize you have done what major ATV manufacturers can't seem to do, with their huge engineering departments.
We need more electric ATV builds, this feels like something viable, that I can attempt. Unlike every other youtuber building electric hummer and retrofitting Teslas and Etrons etc. Out of touch with reality, this however, this is something.
Great job! I love seeing the struggle/learning/failed attempts. It happens to us all, but often the internet makes it look like that's not the case. Keeping it real + having fun + getting to make stuff everyone else wishes they had time to.. Keep up the great work, and thank you for the entertainment!
Cheap tire pro tip: jack up a car, slide the tire underneath, stack boards on 2 sides so when you lower the car the weight strips the tire right off the bead. Maybe not necessary for little atvs or lawn mower tires but hey.
Everyone is yelling about the gear ratio… honestly that is just personal preference about how fast you want it to go and the torque you want to get. The real problem here was that he didn’t support the motor sprocket at all - and it hung out so far from the motor. That’s why the chain slipped at 9:50, you can hear it. I doubt he was putting more than 5 kW into this system.
@@ahaveland 100 agree. It would have been easy to add a second bracket that went back to the rear sprocket. That motor is meant to have a propellor attached, which needs to support no shear loads.
Nice thing about the small motor and lack of fuel storage is that you have somewhere to clip a small fire extinguisher! Just remember to wear gloves that are flame proof when testing!
Maybe use a sensored motor controller like the 75/300 VESC or one from sabvoton or the asi bac, they will run your motor way smoother and with great startup torque and are even cheaper then the one you showed at the end :)
There are many non-hobby ESCs / controllers / inverters that are designed for automotive apps like this, such as Sabvoton, Kelly, Phaserunner etc, though i think the latter only goes up to 4kW. As you know, you really have to have Hall sensors! Still, it's fun watching you discover new ways of breaking things!
I have a few phaserunners and they run best at about 75 amps continous upto 96v. I've blown a few constantly using the max 96a even with appropriate heatsinks
Hey man! Cool project 👌 You HAVE to adjust the gear ratio! When you dubble the voltage, you dobble the RPM of the motor. You should try something like a 1:10 gear ratio. Electric motors like higher rpm than gas engines. You should be able to do burnout’s with this setup 💪🤩 Greetings from Norwegian bro 👊🤠
Outrunners don't really like high RPMs -- they can explode because of the immense centripetal force the bell needs to withstand. Not good if your nuts are nearby...
@@ahaveland hehe 🫣. Ok, higher RPM than this poor motor gets. These usually in RC planes and the prop need some rpm to get flying. And yes, I would not put my balls around any diy motor project 🤣
Max power of an BDLC occurs generally around 50% of no load RPM (peak efficiency at 80%). If you run the motors at say 20% of that you're not going to get anywhere close to the max power output (except heat). If that wasn't the case, you would get 1 gazillion Nm at 1 rpm to with 12 kW power (power=torque × angular speed)
For context in this case; For simplicity assume it's 100kv motor. No load RPM at 48v = 4800 rpm. Peak power at 2400 rpm or 40 rps . Gear ratio = 3. Rear axle will rotate 13 rps. Assume tire diameter of 0.5 m => ideal speed 21 m/s = 75 km/h. Discounting all losses friction, wind, resistance, rotational inertia. People often forget about the wheel diameter and just focus on gears (it's a 0.5 m wide gear!). A ATV tire is 5 times larger than a gocart tyre, can't size the gear ratio similarly. A proper gear ratio (10?) is better to focus on instead of a larger ESC since a lot of power with this design will just go to heat. Sure lower top speed (35 km/h?) but MUCH healthier for the system and range.
I have experience building various electric vehicles and what I know is the gear ratio needs to be between 9 to 1 and 10 to 1 to the rear wheel from the motor. You need more reduction simply put. I am converting the Can-Am 650 outlander to pure electric using a giant permanent magnet DC motor and 8 kilowatt hours of NMC lithium.
Awesome! That motor is insane! The problem with this project is cost. As you now know the ability of the controller to deliver ... say 500 Amps at 100 Volts is amazing. What it can't do is deliver 1000, or even 500 amps at 24 volts for 30 seconds. Once the HUGE investment in a battery that can actually deliver 500 amps at 100 volts is made the motor and controller will throw you forward so quickly it will only need to make that high amperage for a few seconds. And you will need to hold on tight. Be very careful playing with these current levels. You are dealing with more electricity than I use to weld 1/2-inch plate steel. You know what a MOSFET is, and now you know why we call them Metal Oxide Fire & Smoke Emitting Transistors instead of Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistors. P.S. You are not the only one to learn the hard way ... my collection of catastrophic fire controllers is quite impressive ... until you calculate the $$$.
I love the trial and error. So many people don’t do things these days, cause they ‘don’t know of it will work’ instead of just having fun with something.
Use a VESC for speed control. It has FOC control and current limiting which make it suitable for moving people around. VESC is also much cheaper than the speed controllers you are looking at. You can use gokart sprockets to get enough reduction. Use something bigger than #25 chain like #219.
NICE !!! Use controller with hallsensor input Use support bearing so motor axis do not bend and get broken soon Instead of a printed plastic part for the smaller Pulley use a Planetary Gear Box Use its slower turn for easyer start
Use E-bike battery pack, charging system. Make it nice and little more safe. It's an interesting and fun project. Waiting for version 2 with improvements
Cool project. A number of years ago I modified a Kawasaki kz305 to electric with a Curtis controller and motor combo good for up to 72 volts and built my own battery from 18650 cells. It was fun but the range was limiting so I got an old quad and did basically what you did. I also hit the lack of torque you saw so I added a jack shaft to give me better gearing. (I could not go bigger on the back sprocket because I would have been hitting the ground and other parts of the sprocket grew larger. Now I can pull garden carts and I added a hitch ball on the nose and I move my homebuilt teardrop camper around with the quad. Nice little workhorse.
higher voltage controller will increase motor speed. A jackshaft with extra gearing will be necessary….cogged primary belt from motor to jackshaft would keep the noise down. fun project!
I'm about to start building my own electric go kart and this video is not only ABSOLUTELY AWSOME! But it's also really helpful to me, I'd absolutely love to see another video on this with improvements and gears, I'd really love to see how you do it!!
Hello! You vitally need a step-down gearbox for this electric motor. The brushless electric motor has sufficiently high revolutions of its rated power. For its implementation, large revolutions are needed, which a direct drive to the sprocket and chain will not allow. You need a step-down gearbox with a ratio of at least 1 to 5, but it is better of course to calculate the optimal revolutions required by your electric motor. At the same time, the load on the motor control controller will also decrease and it will heat up less, as the operating current will drop. Good luck with the project!
Was going to say you could easily use a brushed Etek motor or Lynch pancake motor with a Curtis, Kelley, or Alltrax controller. This is what most of us use for Electrathon racing and they provide plenty of torque at 24v or up to 50v easily. Just get your heating correct and you're golden.
great project! looking forward to next episode. One thing: between the motor mount and the sprocket you have a huge moment arm. as soon as you use some power/torque, the motor bearings are gonna suffer. maybe stabilize the shaft on the opposite side of the sprocket with a bearing. good luck!
Good info. To fix your starting torque problem, you probably need rotor position feedback sent to your controller so it knows what firing angle to apply to the 3-phase motor windings, since your rotor consists of permanent magnets. Be careful not to over current the motor windings and demagnetize the rotor. It should have very good starting torque when integrated properly. Read the motor specs.
next time can break a bead with a 4x4 post or something hefty and just edge your car/vehicle up on the bead where the wood/object is pressed tight against the rim itll pop off ez. we do it with a skidsteer bucket sometimes hahaha
Green Guys: your gas engines are literally setting fuel on fire, they’re much more dangerous. Electric motors and controllers: I identify as FIREEEEEE!
Nice! There's a lot of potential there! Look at adding a jackshaft to help with the gear ratio. They're used a lot on go-karts. It'll also let you move the motor around to a better position and relieve a little stress from the 3D printed part, which I'm AMAZED held up so well!! Can't wait to see the next video on this! Good luck!
Great project, two suggestions, add a bearing to sprocket side of the motor for driveline stiffness. Use a go-kart style split rear sprocket for quick gearing changes.
1) My e-mountainboard is riding on 15S battaries. I think you should use 20-24S battaries. 2) Every one, who riding/driving electric bikes, ,scooters, boards etc, have to use motors and esc with HALL SENSORS! 3) FLIPSKY 75100 is very very good ESC.
If you add an intermediate shaft you can play with the gear ratios more easily and have support bearings on that shaft that will prevent the expensive motor's bearing from getting beat up when the suspension moves and the chain is tensioned properly around
You should create ur own battery with 18650 cells or 21700 so that it fits in the frame and you can choose the specs exactly like you want with the ratio between power, capacity, money, voltage
Despite it being more flexible and supposedly cheaper, it is dangerous as hell, most battery fires are due to self fabricated ebike batteries when people convert bikes to electric without the proper technological background, it seems easy but both the design both the manufacturing(or assembly) has to be really carefully done, and even then it is a big fire hazard. I do have experience with 18650 cells in batteries, and I wouldn't honestly wouldn't trust a battery done by myself, i have the knowledge to do it safely, but assemblying, that is some brutally easy to fuckup shit. You have a scratch in any of the foils, you can short the batteries, and li-ion doesn't like that that much, spot welding isn't as easy as it seems, you HAVE to be sure that it is properly connected, 1 loose connection can destroy the battery in a big fire, or if they are half loose, you can't observe it, but over time mechanical stress from vibration can break the contact if the welder is not high quality/not set up correctly, and this is just scratching a surface, not even talking about overcurrent-, overtemperature-, overcharge-, undercharge-protection, sadly lithium is really fucking reactive with oxygen, cannot be put out by water, sand isnt that effective also, it burns much much hotter than a regular fire people are used to, and pretty much the only option is to run and wait until the lithium is burnt away. Lipo batteries have the same properties, and they are more prone to just start burning, but bought from an official retailer is much more safer than fabricating a li-ion by yourself without a high level of understanding of both chemics and electorincs. It is fine for small project, putting a few cells to power an iot device/arduino/esp, but I wouldn't start building a bigger bike one, you need to have a lot of materials and tools to be safe, which probably comes out more expensive small scale than buying an actual bike battery.
Get a chain tensioner it's like a bearing that keeps pressure on to eliminate the slack as much as possible without the chain being too tight with the exception of some slack for the suspension to cycle
That's a cool video! I'm playing with the thought of building an electric RC snowplough, so this project is helping build some basic knowledge, and it's very entertaining, too!
Like your dares towards everything new. Get in touch with "GreatScott!". He should be able to build you custom electronics for your projects. Would be a hell of an collab series to watch!
Considering all the motor related things you do, you should really grab a VESC - they make one rated 100V@250A that’d cover most of your prototype needs and let you know the weak points before you buy expensive stuff. They also have very good sensorless control - I run all my motors sensorless and it’s had zero issues starting them even with high starting torque requirements. They’ve even been able to start a pair of four-pole 20” mower blade motors in tall grass. They also have all kinds of settings to make your projects controllable. I can’t say enough about the brains behind them.
I'm seeing u for quite a while now, and i know that when things go bad you just start doing wheird sounds in ur maternal language, so i assume that gigantic fireball was not that dangerous :). Great video.
You'll need a support bearing on the other end of the motor shaft if you want to run more power. Without it you're relying entirely on the bearing in the motor to resist the sideways force on the shaft caused by tension in the chain. That's a significant lever arm
Or drive the shaft back through the rotor and turn the motor around, so that chain applies force much closer to the mount.
@@NGC1433 No, you still want a support shaft. Brushless motors especially pancake motors were not designed for having sideways force on the shaft at all. They are meant to spin balanced props. He would need an inruner motor if he plans to run without a support bearing. Even then it's always better to have one as the petrol engine has a gearbox with a fat shaft real close to the casing which supports all the side force. The shafts are strong ad designed for that application. The bottom line is he needs bearing support if he's going to run any serious power and wants it to last for a while.
this
My first thought!
Great idea and explanation
Previous Electric Go-Kart mechanic here:
First issue I see is as you pointed out, the ESC has no idea where the motor is in its rotation. That black wire coming off the motor is the encoder signal that the ESC uses to determine the position of the motor. We had issues if the encoder became out of sync or out of calibration or even just outright die, the motor would do funny things like make noise or stutter in it's rotation. This is probably why the first controller you used did not work, it was looking for that signal and couldn't do much without it.
Our karts used a motor controller/inverter known as a Sevcon. They are about $300-$500 USD online for the models we had and our karts ran at a nominal 48v and max amperage of 100 amps. 100 amps was programmed as it was just below the max 120 amp output of the 16 nominal 3.2v LiFePo4 batteries in series to create the 48v. There is an alternative that has become popular that the kart manufacturer switched to known as Curtis controllers. Both controllers are pretty well-designed and we had little issues with the Sevcons, we did have one Sevcon that the battery terminal melted but that I had determined it was due to a loose/bad connection. I left the company shortly after they got a new fleet of karts that used the Curtis system so I can't speak to the their long term use but a lot of online shops that sold motor kits, included a Curtis controller.
The only problem with using one of these controllers is the programming cable or software was the expensive part. The programming cord for the Sevcon alone was about $1000 with free software. If you did decide to use one of these, the only issue I can see if you used these is that they are not consumer friendly and require some knowledge of programming the controller to work properly with the motor. I never had to do that, the controllers came pre-programmed and we had a backup file to write to the controller if we ever had to. Though I will mention both of them had a calibration tool for the encoder that would walk you through how to calibrate the encoder so that it was in sync. The Sevcon was a more manual process that you had to take "logs" of the data and put it into the software and it would tell you what to set the encoder to and the Curtis had a one click button and it would go through the calibration process automatically without user input.
If you were to pick one, I'd suggest the Curtis of the two.
There is another controller that I can't remember the name of but I recall Colin Furze used one on his drift trike and that seemed a lot more user friendly and didn't require expensive software or programming cables.
Gear ratio should not be an issue here as our karts had a ratio of 3.636 and had no issue of spinning the tires out from a stand still and I'd assume the weight of the karts aren't too far off the weight of your ATV. It comes down to programming the controller to how much power and torque it uses to get up to speed.
If you would like to ask any questions, I'd love to help as much as I can. But I am no expert of the programming side, only the few settings I would have to go in and change like max RPM, throttle input, or calibrating the motor encoder. I'm pretty sure I still have the PDF files of the parts somewhere and could get you exact part numbers of various things like the TPS sensor, batteries, etc.
EDIT: I do have those PDFs :)
Thank you for your help here. I just gave him some gems of truth I learned along the way as well. I am wondering about the gear ratio as well. Not so much that it is a problem but that all the motors I had which were sensored traction motors designed to run at low rpm all had very large windings. By large I mean the winding wire was 14-16 gauge single strand. I noticed his motor has fine strand wire and I'm wondering if it is designed to operate at much higher RPM. I hope we can help him to accomplish this with less challenges than you and I have had along the way.
One of the easy to program controllers is the Alltrax brand and the Kelly controllers are also good. I have used 3 of the 4 with good success.
Sevcons are definitely popular.
Endless-Sphere approved.
@@kevinsellsit5584 I suspect the fine strands are connected many in parallel to improve packing density, and the number of turns would be in the tens *not* thousands!
You are an absolute hero (in terms of YT comments) to write such an in depth comment to help assist. I'm genuinely touched by the effort you've gone to when most comments can't even take the time to appear grammatically correct.
@@Dogburt_Junior OG ... V is for Voltage
Pains me to see that tiny sensorless controller running that motor, looking forward to part 2
Agreed haha only way to even try to get away with running a sensorless setup in applications like these would be to add a torque converter for some slipping, and to allow for the esc to start to detect the feedback on bldc after “X” rpm’s.
Sensored is absolutely the way to go, it’s much more efficient, and the amount of torque gain from precise control is night and day.
No idea what you guys are talking about. I wish I did.
Pretty sure the battery for pump of the watercooling loop ran out and therfore killed the esc. I hear no pump running right after the incident
Rip ESC..
@@SetitesTechAdventures the shiny bit that controls the motor
@@Liace159 plus the improper gearing and sensorless controller means that poor esc was working massively overtime.
I’ll be honest though, still love the video, not criticizing as I would have done the exact same thing just to get it moving around while I waited for the big boy esc to show up.
The only difference I would have made if I may suggest, is #1, run a dc to dc buck converter to power the water pump off the main batteries, use different batteries in general. I build custom lithium batteries for everything from my 165KW home solar battery, to small desktop projects. By using the lipo cells without either a bms, no temperature monitoring, no balancing, or under voltage protection, it’s potentially dangerous. I’m sure the esc has a low voltage cutoff, just kind of sketchy to rely solely on that to keep the batteries within spec between voltage, overall current draw, and temperature.
If interested, I’ll make some suggestions for some either modifications to your current lipos, or how to build an even bigger battery cheaply that’s safe, reliable, and can handle the power demands easily
I'd say first change the gear ratio. That will yield the biggest results and should limit how much current is needed, right?
My guess is that the motor can spin much faster than ever needed, so changig gear ratio will not have any real downsides.
also using a speed controler that uses the sensor on the motor will make a big difference
No the sensor is extremely important, since the electric motor is running super inefficient without it. Basically it works against itself now, since the timing of turning the electromagnets on is completely off.
@@dryaldibread2327 not really. The ESC uses feedback from the windings to figure out the phase. That's why it works so badly at start from standstill. It's common on escs for RC flight as propellers don't produce much drag in the beginning.
But running it like this might kill the motor if the ESC fails to detect the zero crossing.
lets say he get 80kv motor (not KW ...KV meaning rpm per volt)
so u get
48v x 80KV =3840rpm x circumference of the tire = around 143.6cm ~ 56.5 inch
3840 rpm x 143.6cm x 60min (because its rpm we need per hour) divide per 1 km = 330.85kmh YUP almost 331kmh
divide that with 3.18 gearing = around 104kmh max speed
FAST
but
if he will use sensored mode it will work waaaaaaay better
PS
U can get VESC for 100V + for around 100-200$
Motor can give more power, needs a better ESC + Batteries then check the gearing.
you should use the original gas tank as the water reservoir.
Also Radiator to cool the Water down for long runs. Would an PC Water-cooling radiator work, too?
@@seskalarafey9285 dumping the heat into the chassis somewhere would be nice. Lots of metal to get rid of the heat
@@fluffigverbimmelt I'm not sure how much heat is generated that can be taken care of using the water cooling system, but dumping it into the chassis is probably not going to do it for two reasons first of all the chassis is made of steel which has pretty poor heat conduction.
And second is that the chassis is made of round tubing. That means there's not much surface area to radiate or cool down through convection. And cool down it needs. Just because there's something like 50 pounds of steel to heat up doesn't mean you can just sink the heat into it. That would just accumulate the heat. No the water has to be cooled down. A 240mm PC radiator would probably perform decent but bigger is in this case better. But it shouldn't be to hard to find an old MC radiator which should provide ample cooling if it's needed.
Now the expansion tank doesn't need to be all that big. All it's supposed to take care of is the difference in water volume due to thermal expansion. There's really no need to have the water flow through it if you got an inline pump. Just put the expansion tank somewhere high and connect it to the cooling loop at the highest spot using a T-connector and you're done.
@@fluffigverbimmelt Metal is a good conductor, but steel has a relatively low specific heat capacity. Water is the cheapest high heat capacity fluid.
I came here to say this too, its literally made for it
I NEVER NEVER NEVER watch the ads.. but that map ad had me drooling. I watched it twice!
This project is amazing! Thx for going hard on this video!!
I think, for that motor, an additional bearing at the end of the shaft is a necessity.
And I strongly suggest FOC. Unfortunately, I can't suggest driver for that motor.
There is something magical in the electric vehicles. I really want to make one for no reason :)
@Andrew Cowell bUt ItS zErO eMiSsOnS!
Yooo! I didn't know you watched Simon! Cool :D
It's called FIRE :D
@Andrew Cowell no one cares about your conspiracies
Electric is the way to go, so much fun. I have built my ebike, and I’m using it almost every day except winter. There is a short video of the build in my channel if you are curious.
You need to use a VESC for this kind of use case instead of a regular ESC. VERY IMPORTANT!
PLEASE research VESCs before buying any new ESC.
When using this size of motors, the ESC/VESC has to be specialy calibrated to that particular Motor. Otherwise, the whole system will burn out at some point because of the high amp draw and voltage. You can do that with VESC, and not with ESC.
a hobby ESC is made to output as many amps as needed to do whatever the PWM signal from the radio tells it to do. Even though it says 300A. That doesn't mean that it will cut or limit power at 300A draw to save itself from being damaged.
with a VESC you can program an Amp limit draw, and it will adjust the voltage accordingly. Kinda like when you change lipo batteries. This will also save the ESC from amp draw spikes when starting up or doing hard accelerations.
This is the key to not constantly burn out ESCs like you seem to do quite often :)
Use the sotware called "VESC tool" program the VESC
This should be the top comment
@Pandacat 666 what he needs is a setup actually designed for purpose , The motor, controller and battery system are tiny - most small kids quads run on 24v or even 36v .
he needs a qs138 , 300A controller minimum and say a 72v battery - something similar to what we use on our Electric Quad conversions
@Pandacat 666 VESC is just a type af ESC. So you just chose an VESC with voltage and amp ratings that are appropriate for the build.
@Pandacat 666 You’re the one talking nonsense.
Trampa make some of the best VESC, their 100v 250A version would be perfect for this.
OMG here we go! tooo happy to see my old motor 😍🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
simon i know what controller you can use and its much cheaper than flir and co!
plus you will be able to use the sensored mode which will give you so much torque that you rip that plastic gear sprocket thingy clean of haha
Before I even watched, I liked. I’ve had my eye on a 50kw outrunner very similar to this, and was wondering when I’d find someone to use a big boy one, how it does with temperature, and how well it’s protected as far as iron filings and dust getting into it over time from kicking up dirt on the road.
This thing is gonna be badass man! Thanks for the upload!
Look up Fardriver or Kelly controller, they make "real" motor controllers (made for electric vehicles) which don't go up in flames as they have over current protection. The controllers are actually not more expensive than high power RC controllers, they are around 3000-5000 SEK. They are more tricky to set up, but they are sensored, have FOC and are just better and more reliable in every regard
i second that - ive been watching another channel who have converted a yamaha raptor with a liquid cooled motor & fardriver controller looked awesome
Just bought a gas powered quad bike but would have gone electric in a heartbeat. Your skills are amazing and these projects are a tinkerer's dream. Would love to see you mod a personal water craft! Keep doing what you do for those of us who cannot. 🥰 Also, you realize you have done what major ATV manufacturers can't seem to do, with their huge engineering departments.
We need more electric ATV builds, this feels like something viable, that I can attempt. Unlike every other youtuber building electric hummer and retrofitting Teslas and Etrons etc. Out of touch with reality, this however, this is something.
go for a bike 4 wheelers are trash
ive been watching this also \m/ ua-cam.com/video/m3RPiqePXic/v-deo.html
Great job! I love seeing the struggle/learning/failed attempts. It happens to us all, but often the internet makes it look like that's not the case.
Keeping it real + having fun + getting to make stuff everyone else wishes they had time to.. Keep up the great work, and thank you for the entertainment!
Very cool as always! Maybe strap a little fire extinguisher to it.
I feel like this is going to be one of your better vehicle projects. Avoid fire and you'll be in good shape!
Running from the fires might also get him in good shape, though.
Just wanna say I really noticed and think the production quality in this video is amazing. Keep it up, you're doing amazing man
Cheap tire pro tip: jack up a car, slide the tire underneath, stack boards on 2 sides so when you lower the car the weight strips the tire right off the bead. Maybe not necessary for little atvs or lawn mower tires but hey.
Everyone is yelling about the gear ratio… honestly that is just personal preference about how fast you want it to go and the torque you want to get.
The real problem here was that he didn’t support the motor sprocket at all - and it hung out so far from the motor. That’s why the chain slipped at 9:50, you can hear it. I doubt he was putting more than 5 kW into this system.
Yes, the spindle also needs supporting with a fixed bearing to ease torsional stress on its main bearings.
@@ahaveland 100 agree. It would have been easy to add a second bracket that went back to the rear sprocket. That motor is meant to have a propellor attached, which needs to support no shear loads.
0:23 "So I started removing all the parts I didn't need." I love how the first thing he removes is the wheels😂
Nice thing about the small motor and lack of fuel storage is that you have somewhere to clip a small fire extinguisher!
Just remember to wear gloves that are flame proof when testing!
Maybe use a sensored motor controller like the 75/300 VESC or one from sabvoton or the asi bac, they will run your motor way smoother and with great startup torque and are even cheaper then the one you showed at the end :)
Du auch hier, nice :D
Better than the 75/300 would be the little FOCer for only $300. There are other good options as well.
VESC IS BASED
@@quinnfoster4671 FOCer is cringe the best is BESC G2 100V/400A Based Vesc💪💪💪💪💪💪💪💪
Still one of my favorite YT channels.
There are many non-hobby ESCs / controllers / inverters that are designed for automotive apps like this, such as Sabvoton, Kelly, Phaserunner etc, though i think the latter only goes up to 4kW.
As you know, you really have to have Hall sensors!
Still, it's fun watching you discover new ways of breaking things!
I have a few phaserunners and they run best at about 75 amps continous upto 96v. I've blown a few constantly using the max 96a even with appropriate heatsinks
Cool project man. Can't wait for part 2. I would love to see the final build to have a nice professional built quality
Hey man! Cool project 👌 You HAVE to adjust the gear ratio! When you dubble the voltage, you dobble the RPM of the motor. You should try something like a 1:10 gear ratio. Electric motors like higher rpm than gas engines. You should be able to do burnout’s with this setup 💪🤩 Greetings from Norwegian bro 👊🤠
Outrunners don't really like high RPMs -- they can explode because of the immense centripetal force the bell needs to withstand. Not good if your nuts are nearby...
@@ahaveland hehe 🫣. Ok, higher RPM than this poor motor gets. These usually in RC planes and the prop need some rpm to get flying. And yes, I would not put my balls around any diy motor project 🤣
When you seated those batteries I was like "Sure this lad likes grilled eggs." and after seeing the fire I blasted a hard laughter.
Max power of an BDLC occurs generally around 50% of no load RPM (peak efficiency at 80%). If you run the motors at say 20% of that you're not going to get anywhere close to the max power output (except heat). If that wasn't the case, you would get 1 gazillion Nm at 1 rpm to with 12 kW power (power=torque × angular speed)
Good point!
For context in this case; For simplicity assume it's 100kv motor. No load RPM at 48v = 4800 rpm. Peak power at 2400 rpm or 40 rps . Gear ratio = 3. Rear axle will rotate 13 rps. Assume tire diameter of 0.5 m => ideal speed 21 m/s = 75 km/h. Discounting all losses friction, wind, resistance, rotational inertia. People often forget about the wheel diameter and just focus on gears (it's a 0.5 m wide gear!). A ATV tire is 5 times larger than a gocart tyre, can't size the gear ratio similarly. A proper gear ratio (10?) is better to focus on instead of a larger ESC since a lot of power with this design will just go to heat. Sure lower top speed (35 km/h?) but MUCH healthier for the system and range.
I have experience building various electric vehicles and what I know is the gear ratio needs to be between 9 to 1 and 10 to 1 to the rear wheel from the motor. You need more reduction simply put.
I am converting the Can-Am 650 outlander to pure electric using a giant permanent magnet DC motor and 8 kilowatt hours of NMC lithium.
Awesome! That motor is insane! The problem with this project is cost. As you now know the ability of the controller to deliver ... say 500 Amps at 100 Volts is amazing. What it can't do is deliver 1000, or even 500 amps at 24 volts for 30 seconds.
Once the HUGE investment in a battery that can actually deliver 500 amps at 100 volts is made the motor and controller will throw you forward so quickly it will only need to make that high amperage for a few seconds. And you will need to hold on tight.
Be very careful playing with these current levels. You are dealing with more electricity than I use to weld 1/2-inch plate steel.
You know what a MOSFET is, and now you know why we call them Metal Oxide Fire & Smoke Emitting Transistors instead of Metal Oxide Semiconductor Field Effect Transistors.
P.S. You are not the only one to learn the hard way ... my collection of catastrophic fire controllers is quite impressive ... until you calculate the $$$.
That’s awesome man!! Glad you didn’t get hurt 👍 can’t wait for the next video!!
Seeing a fire while sitting on batteries has to be one of the scariest things.
The camera use and cinema design in this video is amazing
its the perfect amount of jank and fun 👊
Testing phase
I love the trial and error.
So many people don’t do things these days, cause they ‘don’t know of it will work’ instead of just having fun with something.
Use a VESC for speed control. It has FOC control and current limiting which make it suitable for moving people around. VESC is also much cheaper than the speed controllers you are looking at. You can use gokart sprockets to get enough reduction. Use something bigger than #25 chain like #219.
No experiment will ever succeed without a little bit of fire. Awesome vid man.
NICE !!!
Use controller with hallsensor input
Use support bearing so motor axis do not bend and get broken soon
Instead of a printed plastic part for the smaller Pulley use a Planetary Gear Box
Use its slower turn for easyer start
At least the forest didn't burn down. It's a cool vehicle too :) Looking forward to part 2.
Use E-bike battery pack, charging system. Make it nice and little more safe.
It's an interesting and fun project. Waiting for version 2 with improvements
Cool project. A number of years ago I modified a Kawasaki kz305 to electric with a Curtis controller and motor combo good for up to 72 volts and built my own battery from 18650 cells. It was fun but the range was limiting so I got an old quad and did basically what you did. I also hit the lack of torque you saw so I added a jack shaft to give me better gearing. (I could not go bigger on the back sprocket because I would have been hitting the ground and other parts of the sprocket grew larger. Now I can pull garden carts and I added a hitch ball on the nose and I move my homebuilt teardrop camper around with the quad. Nice little workhorse.
We missed you man! Such a cool project, looking forward to part 2!
higher voltage controller will increase motor speed. A jackshaft with extra gearing will be necessary….cogged primary belt from motor to jackshaft would keep the noise down. fun project!
I'm about to start building my own electric go kart and this video is not only ABSOLUTELY AWSOME! But it's also really helpful to me, I'd absolutely love to see another video on this with improvements and gears, I'd really love to see how you do it!!
Thanks for sharing the progress and putting videos' out more often than waiting for the fully developed project!
That was an amazing idea. Very cool electric ATV. You threw that thing together in like no time. Looking forward to seeing you soup it up.
Nice edit. This is a fun and educational video 🙂 with just the right touch of snarky sarcasm. Good quality!
Wow! Nice job. I’m adding this to my list of projects!
I was wondering if you were in Sweden until I saw those two Saabs 🥰😂
Nice video, you derserve a comment, here is one. Looking forward part 2. Good luck!
The CVT in a GY6 motor would help alot with that power curve
This is some awesome camera work the angles, camera quality, and the editing
I just love your videos and the projects you make! Awesome project again Simon!!
Finally he is back for some fun time
can't wait for part 2 of this! Excellent progress so far for something just thrown together with parts you mostly already had on hand.
Hello! You vitally need a step-down gearbox for this electric motor. The brushless electric motor has sufficiently high revolutions of its rated power. For its implementation, large revolutions are needed, which a direct drive to the sprocket and chain will not allow. You need a step-down gearbox with a ratio of at least 1 to 5, but it is better of course to calculate the optimal revolutions required by your electric motor. At the same time, the load on the motor control controller will also decrease and it will heat up less, as the operating current will drop. Good luck with the project!
Amazing dude! I enjoyed watching the whole video and waiting for pt2. Now i have to make one of this!
You are a great engineer
Was going to say you could easily use a brushed Etek motor or Lynch pancake motor with a Curtis, Kelley, or Alltrax controller. This is what most of us use for Electrathon racing and they provide plenty of torque at 24v or up to 50v easily. Just get your heating correct and you're golden.
Love acting skills and shooting skills are from mars love ❤️ it hope to see more soon
Great video (and editing). At least the motor survived!
Can't wait for part 2!
Super cool project
Finally he's into the big stuff
9:48
Man! The G forces on that turn must've been insane!
another great video! super nice projects Simon, thanks for sharing!
Come on part 2! that is an awesome project!!
can't wait for you to get out working this looks so promising and would love to follow your guide to make one
Great video! Really liked that kind of video style! Well cut and easy to watch! Keep going like this :)
great project! looking forward to next episode. One thing: between the motor mount and the sprocket you have a huge moment arm. as soon as you use some power/torque, the motor bearings are gonna suffer. maybe stabilize the shaft on the opposite side of the sprocket with a bearing. good luck!
Really cool project
Impressive. This gave me an idea to work on something like this with my son.
Dude I missed you, glad to see your crazy projects again!
I also very much appreciate it. What and idea! And you pulled it off. Great video and stay safe 😁👍
Good info. To fix your starting torque problem, you probably need rotor position feedback sent to your controller so it knows what firing angle to apply to the 3-phase motor windings, since your rotor consists of permanent magnets. Be careful not to over current the motor windings and demagnetize the rotor. It should have very good starting torque when integrated properly. Read the motor specs.
next time can break a bead with a 4x4 post or something hefty and just edge your car/vehicle up on the bead where the wood/object is pressed tight against the rim itll pop off ez. we do it with a skidsteer bucket sometimes hahaha
Thank you so much! Very excellent!
Green Guys: your gas engines are literally setting fuel on fire, they’re much more dangerous.
Electric motors and controllers: I identify as FIREEEEEE!
I love it! Please keep posting? Your a real inspiration to me . Thankt
Dude, your videos are amazing. Thanks for sharing and keep it up!
Nice! There's a lot of potential there! Look at adding a jackshaft to help with the gear ratio. They're used a lot on go-karts. It'll also let you move the motor around to a better position and relieve a little stress from the 3D printed part, which I'm AMAZED held up so well!! Can't wait to see the next video on this! Good luck!
I was just travelling through sweden and the lakes reminded me of your videos
Great project. Waiting for part 2.
Great project, two suggestions, add a bearing to sprocket side of the motor for driveline stiffness. Use a go-kart style split rear sprocket for quick gearing changes.
Add a centrifugal clutch, that should solve most of your issues :)
what a great video !!!!
you should put an emergency button to cut power to the battery
1) My e-mountainboard is riding on 15S battaries.
I think you should use 20-24S battaries.
2) Every one, who riding/driving electric bikes, ,scooters, boards etc, have to use motors and esc with HALL SENSORS!
3) FLIPSKY 75100 is very very good ESC.
If you add an intermediate shaft you can play with the gear ratios more easily and have support bearings on that shaft that will prevent the expensive motor's bearing from getting beat up when the suspension moves and the chain is tensioned properly around
You should create ur own battery with 18650 cells or 21700 so that it fits in the frame and you can choose the specs exactly like you want with the ratio between power, capacity, money, voltage
Despite it being more flexible and supposedly cheaper, it is dangerous as hell, most battery fires are due to self fabricated ebike batteries when people convert bikes to electric without the proper technological background, it seems easy but both the design both the manufacturing(or assembly) has to be really carefully done, and even then it is a big fire hazard. I do have experience with 18650 cells in batteries, and I wouldn't honestly wouldn't trust a battery done by myself, i have the knowledge to do it safely, but assemblying, that is some brutally easy to fuckup shit. You have a scratch in any of the foils, you can short the batteries, and li-ion doesn't like that that much, spot welding isn't as easy as it seems, you HAVE to be sure that it is properly connected, 1 loose connection can destroy the battery in a big fire, or if they are half loose, you can't observe it, but over time mechanical stress from vibration can break the contact if the welder is not high quality/not set up correctly, and this is just scratching a surface, not even talking about overcurrent-, overtemperature-, overcharge-, undercharge-protection, sadly lithium is really fucking reactive with oxygen, cannot be put out by water, sand isnt that effective also, it burns much much hotter than a regular fire people are used to, and pretty much the only option is to run and wait until the lithium is burnt away. Lipo batteries have the same properties, and they are more prone to just start burning, but bought from an official retailer is much more safer than fabricating a li-ion by yourself without a high level of understanding of both chemics and electorincs. It is fine for small project, putting a few cells to power an iot device/arduino/esp, but I wouldn't start building a bigger bike one, you need to have a lot of materials and tools to be safe, which probably comes out more expensive small scale than buying an actual bike battery.
Always love your uploads. Keep up the good work…..always entertaining!
Another fantastic video, this time making an ATV of all things! Keep up the great content!
Get a chain tensioner it's like a bearing that keeps pressure on to eliminate the slack as much as possible without the chain being too tight with the exception of some slack for the suspension to cycle
That's a cool video! I'm playing with the thought of building an electric RC snowplough, so this project is helping build some basic knowledge, and it's very entertaining, too!
Like your dares towards everything new. Get in touch with "GreatScott!". He should be able to build you custom electronics for your projects. Would be a hell of an collab series to watch!
Considering all the motor related things you do, you should really grab a VESC - they make one rated 100V@250A that’d cover most of your prototype needs and let you know the weak points before you buy expensive stuff. They also have very good sensorless control - I run all my motors sensorless and it’s had zero issues starting them even with high starting torque requirements. They’ve even been able to start a pair of four-pole 20” mower blade motors in tall grass. They also have all kinds of settings to make your projects controllable. I can’t say enough about the brains behind them.
Still awaiting for part 2 😄
2024 and it’s still not here 💀
Your life would be so much better with a Sabvoton or VESC controller. Still, pretty cool result, always happy when you post a new video.
I'm seeing u for quite a while now, and i know that when things go bad you just start doing wheird sounds in ur maternal language, so i assume that gigantic fireball was not that dangerous :). Great video.
It turned out too cool. Congratulations.👏👏👏
Just joined your Patreon, would love to see more content but understand how much work it must be. Regardless, probably my favorite channel on UA-cam.