This is why I like scrolling through the internet for a good hour about surplus gun stuff: I find very informative and interesting videos like this. I've had my Swiss K31 for a couple years and never would have found this bit of information out on my own. You, sir, deserve a sub... both the sandwich and subscription.
I got most of the way through this video without understanding a word of the explanation, then at 8:01 it clicked "THIS IS SEMI GENIUS," my mind screamed.
Great information, thanks. Always interesting to explore the thought process of the engineers back in the day when they designed these and other battle rifles.
Funny, I always assumed a 6 o'clock hold was superior for combat shooting for that exact reason. I also find it easier for target shooting. It can be difficult to put the top of the blade across the middle of the circular target, but it is usually easy to see the blade tangent with the bottom. I would imagine blending both techniques may be a bit confusing though, very easy to forget. Great video!
Nothing overambitious about the 1500 m setting on a K31. Ernie Jimenez pretty well demonstrated that, at least with handloads, some hits at extreme range are possible. Thanks for an excellent video, dude.
Rather long range settings were common on early 20th Century rifles. However, they were not put on the rifles for individuals to do sniper work at 1800 yards/meters/arshins/schritte or whatever. The sergeant would tell the troops to set for xx range, direct them to an area and the whole mob would shoot until they ran out of ammo or the sergeant told them to stop. They were using the squad (platoon/company) as indirect fire machine guns to either tear up an enemy movement or deny access to an enemy element.
Feldschiessen (fältskytte) used to be a big thing up here in Sweden too, but now it's largely dead because of overly strict gun laws and a lack of shooting ranges (because of our overly strict gun laws). Sigh.
Well lack of shooting ranges is mostly becaues alot of military regiments where disbanded and that there are harsher environmental laws for shooting ranges now. Don't want the lead to leak down to the groundwater.
I recall the Italian Mannlicher-Carcano sights are setup so the front sight is at the bottom of the notch when properly aligned. Was this done for the same reason?
I love my k31, but having berdan primed swiss surplus rounds makes reloading a chore. Not reloading the rifle but the ammunition. Its not the easiest caliber to find in rural Texas.
I was lucky enough to actually find unfired PPU 7.5x55 boxer brass for sale when it was available.. 1,000 cases should last me a long time on top of all of the surplus and completed cartridges of PPU 7.5x55 I have as well.
The AK also had a peculiar way of aiming and using its sights. Would be nice to explain. By the way, the peep sights on the AR are known to be terrible for easy adjustment for distances as the settings are too abstract
Is there a source/pdf of these tables online somewhere for my 1889 and k11'ing please? I would really like to get these as a frame of reference to eventually get my load data as good as I can within reasons........
Just saw the video. With my K31 I have to hold about 2" low at 100 yards. Doesn't really matter, since I use mine for deer hunting, and I've never taken a shot at more than 100 yards.
Well i thought nobody would use those factory iron sights anymore. At least here in Switzerland i never saw someone using them. You can get a lot out of these old Rifles if you mounta decent sight on them.
Question, does anyone know how the Obligatorisches was setup int the 40ies? We found appreciation certificates for good shooting of my Granpa that he was shooting 103 and 107 points, but nowadays you only can shoot 85 in a Obligatorisches. Thanks in advance A Stinngergunner A.D.
I've shot 3 NRA high power matches with mine....really wish I knew this. I thought I just sucked! I was hitting the target number on top of the stand at 300 yards but next week hit a 6 inch gong with a .308 at 700.
Love your work question can k31 be fired with bolt out of battery approximately 2mm not in all the way or the design of the rifle will prevent it if not its a real disaster thanks
No it cant, because the firing pin will rotate the bolt in full battery. You can see how the bolt turns shut. But the gun will probably not fire because most of the energy of the firing pin spring will be eaten up by rotating the bolt home. You will probably see a dent on the primer. just cock the striker again and fire. As you see the rifle is safe all the time.
I shot my K31 at 300 yards last weekend. Now it makes sense why none of my shots with sight set at 300 hit the paper but did set at 200 yards. A lot of that is my skill level also., but I now i know to try six o'clock hold.
I love those plastic chargers. Work nice in my K11 . could you do a similar shoot with the K11 . I haven't had mine on a range past 200m yet. I'm aiming bottom of circle as well.
Hei Bloke I did the Feldschiessen in Wangen with the K11 this year... huge fun, and the old guys there first grinned when they saw me shooting with standard iron sights, but cheered every well placed shot then. Had a great time!
That's cool. I do not own a K31 yet, as i have not found one I like, just yet. I just picked up a 1896/11 though , it is shooting great as well . slightly better than my K11.
Along with the benefit that the sights don't have to block the target, another benefit is that with that setting the shot has a [slightly] flatter trajectory on the target zone, so it also minimizes vertical spread over target region. That could have been more obvious had you plotted the data on those tables. For 300m: imgur.com/a/l2kaT and for 400m: imgur.com/a/hvlie
Is there a way (other than just shooting the rifle) to tell if a K11 or G11 is point of aim/point of impact at 300 or 30cm high? I was wondering if there was any marking.
@@BlokeontheRange Thanks for the response. I have a K-dopter for my K31. The old D75 Gehmann aperture is frozen. I bought a new modern Gehmann aperture to replace it. I discovered the new aperture has a larger threaded shank. I am looking for an adapter to have the K-dopter accept the new Gehmann aperture but I don't know the thread size of the K-dopter.
I've been using the polymer clips for about a year and think they work quite well. Though I have to tell you, Swiss surplus Ammo is drying up here in the US and we are semi stuck w Prvi or Norma. I handload, but it's not my favorite pastime. Care to ship a brother some patronen? :-) On a related topic, is there a trick to the "clip flic?"
Sometimes. It depends on the rifle. Some of mine are 6 o'clock, some not, and there's a table of drops in Zimmerman's 1940 book showing figures for both ways of sighting.
Hey bloke. Where do you go on the range? BTW it is so obvious you're a "Vereinsschiesser". As a former Swiss soldier, I like em naked and bare. You gotta do the best with what you have.
3 shots (or 3 data points of anything) is insufficient for a statistically meaningful group. If you are trying to measure the accuracy capability of a rifle or find the precise correlation between point of aim vs point of impact, 3 shots can be misleading. It did illustrate what Bloke was trying to show perfectly fine though.
That's an excellent explanation of what might have otherwise wasted 100 rounds of ammunition.
This is why I like scrolling through the internet for a good hour about surplus gun stuff: I find very informative and interesting videos like this. I've had my Swiss K31 for a couple years and never would have found this bit of information out on my own. You, sir, deserve a sub... both the sandwich and subscription.
I got most of the way through this video without understanding a word of the explanation, then at 8:01 it clicked "THIS IS SEMI GENIUS," my mind screamed.
That's exactly what I was thinking too. lol First I was like what is he talking about. Little bit later, oooooohhhh. Makes since.
Great information, thanks. Always interesting to explore the thought process of the engineers back in the day when they designed these and other battle rifles.
I know it's been a while since this is out but just discovered you and the K-11 and K-31. This helps me alot on my shooting and setting up sights
Aim low is a good principal for real world use on unknown distance targets. You see your miss and know how much to adjust, for elevation and windage.
Thanks for including Mod-11 information. Bloke splain has been working great for me.
Thanks for that, I just started shooting my new K31! Great info!
Funny, I always assumed a 6 o'clock hold was superior for combat shooting for that exact reason. I also find it easier for target shooting. It can be difficult to put the top of the blade across the middle of the circular target, but it is usually easy to see the blade tangent with the bottom. I would imagine blending both techniques may be a bit confusing though, very easy to forget. Great video!
I really enjoyed your videos with the K31. Congrats for your 2016 Championship! Keep them coming please. Scott from Texas.
you just saved me significant time and money prior to heading to the 300, thank you
Loved watching this video years ago but now I’m fortunate to have a custom 96/11 from mr Zimmermans shop! Now I must find a copy of his book!
Very good to know, since I'am planing to take my Granfthers K31 on the range next shootign season. And I intend do shoot it well, nacked...
thanks for taking on all of the misconceptions.
Nothing overambitious about the 1500 m setting on a K31. Ernie Jimenez pretty well demonstrated that, at least with handloads, some hits at extreme range are possible. Thanks for an excellent video, dude.
LOL "Nothing overambitious". For the "average bloke on the battlefield", this is totally overambitious
Rather long range settings were common on early 20th Century rifles. However, they were not put on the rifles for individuals to do sniper work at 1800 yards/meters/arshins/schritte or whatever.
The sergeant would tell the troops to set for xx range, direct them to an area and the whole mob would shoot until they ran out of ammo or the sergeant told them to stop. They were using the squad (platoon/company) as indirect fire machine guns to either tear up an enemy movement or deny access to an enemy element.
thank you very much. I just got a K31. Now to learn the 1896/11 sights. 14 inches high at 100 meters.
Feldschiessen (fältskytte) used to be a big thing up here in Sweden too, but now it's largely dead because of overly strict gun laws and a lack of shooting ranges (because of our overly strict gun laws). Sigh.
Well lack of shooting ranges is mostly becaues alot of military regiments where disbanded and that there are harsher environmental laws for shooting ranges now. Don't want the lead to leak down to the groundwater.
Sad, marksmanship was part of your heritage!
I recall the Italian Mannlicher-Carcano sights are setup so the front sight is at the bottom of the notch when properly aligned. Was this done for the same reason?
That is actually genius, took me a little bit there.
Fascinating, but yes I definitely get the logic. Seems it could be the same for the M39. Same type of front sight.
My friend and I have K31s and didn't know this. Thx for vid! Wish that book was in English tho. That'd be sooo great to have!
Sights out to 1500m actually were pretty essential to contemporary infantry tactics.
I love my k31, but having berdan primed swiss surplus rounds makes reloading a chore. Not reloading the rifle but the ammunition. Its not the easiest caliber to find in rural Texas.
.284 Winchester brass can be used. The thickness of the rim is different but it works according to the wikipedia on the cartridge.
I'll have to look into that thanks!
PPU and Norma sells new boxer cases too.
I was lucky enough to actually find unfired PPU 7.5x55 boxer brass for sale when it was available.. 1,000 cases should last me a long time on top of all of the surplus and completed cartridges of PPU 7.5x55 I have as well.
Sgammo
Thank you..learned a bit...surprised did not know you fellas still were allowed rifles...or pistols
But... what is her name?
it would have to start with a K....the question is........does it need to be a swiss lady's name ?
I have 4 of them. Favorite mil-surp rifle.
The AK also had a peculiar way of aiming and using its sights. Would be nice to explain. By the way, the peep sights on the AR are known to be terrible for easy adjustment for distances as the settings are too abstract
Excellent video and explanation thank you
Just sent away for a pair of those plastic cartridge clips. Glad that I watched this.
They are great. The fudds will sneer at you though.
I want to get a couple, but at $31 each plus shipping that can get pricey fast.
@Eye Ore That´s typical American, havig a great idea but then ruined and fucked up in the making producing junk
thank you teacher -very good i have learnt something new
@9:00, power level Othias reached!
What's with those cheap Mauser looking sights Bloke? My K31 came with micrometer style sights 👍😍
Great video and amazing rifle!
Is there a source/pdf of these tables online somewhere for my 1889 and k11'ing please?
I would really like to get these as a frame of reference to eventually get my load data as good as I can within reasons........
Just saw the video. With my K31 I have to hold about 2" low at 100 yards. Doesn't really matter, since I use mine for deer hunting, and I've never taken a shot at more than 100 yards.
Can you do a blokesplaing the whole "minute of angle" cos I hear it a lot and don't know what it means
1/60 degree.
ps: Have you ever shot a Swedish M96 6x5 by 55? They are a very interesting rifle as well.
Great video! Tks
You probably won't see this since its a old video but is there any place to download these tables?
Well i thought nobody would use those factory iron sights anymore. At least here in Switzerland i never saw someone using them. You can get a lot out of these old Rifles if you mounta decent sight on them.
Question, does anyone know how the Obligatorisches was setup int the 40ies?
We found appreciation certificates for good shooting of my Granpa that he was shooting 103 and 107 points, but nowadays you only can shoot 85 in a Obligatorisches.
Thanks in advance
A Stinngergunner A.D.
I've shot 3 NRA high power matches with mine....really wish I knew this. I thought I just sucked! I was hitting the target number on top of the stand at 300 yards but next week hit a 6 inch gong with a .308 at 700.
Love your work question can k31 be fired with bolt out of battery approximately 2mm not in all the way or the design of the rifle will prevent it if not its a real disaster thanks
No it cant, because the firing pin will rotate the bolt in full battery. You can see how the bolt turns shut. But the gun will probably not fire because most of the energy of the firing pin spring will be eaten up by rotating the bolt home. You will probably see a dent on the primer. just cock the striker again and fire. As you see the rifle is safe all the time.
Great video brother. You're freakin funny too................... good job soldier! I like it!
I shot my K31 at 300 yards last weekend. Now it makes sense why none of my shots with sight set at 300 hit the paper but did set at 200 yards. A lot of that is my skill level also., but I now i know to try six o'clock hold.
6 o'clock hold just makes so much sense. Hold overs are fine close up but far out, it's really hard to put the sights on what you can't see.
I love those plastic chargers. Work nice in my K11 . could you do a similar shoot with the K11 . I haven't had mine on a range past 200m yet. I'm aiming bottom of circle as well.
Hei Bloke
I did the Feldschiessen in Wangen with the K11 this year... huge fun, and the old guys there first grinned when they saw me shooting with standard iron sights, but cheered every well placed shot then. Had a great time!
That's cool. I do not own a K31 yet, as i have not found one I like, just yet. I just picked up a 1896/11 though , it is shooting great as well . slightly better than my K11.
Along with the benefit that the sights don't have to block the target, another benefit is that with that setting the shot has a [slightly] flatter trajectory on the target zone, so it also minimizes vertical spread over target region. That could have been more obvious had you plotted the data on those tables. For 300m: imgur.com/a/l2kaT and for 400m: imgur.com/a/hvlie
Darf ich fragen, wo man diese modernen Ladestreifen bekommen kann?
Is that book by K. Zimmermann available in English?
Darn! Well thank you for the reply, and the video as well!
Is there a way (other than just shooting the rifle) to tell if a K11 or G11 is point of aim/point of impact at 300 or 30cm high? I was wondering if there was any marking.
No.
Thank you, brilliant vid
Is there a PDF of that book available anywhere?
So it's a carry over from target shooters, got it.
Does that mean all K31s are sighted for a 6 'o clock hold?
Not necessarily. Most have already changed the front sight, to accomodate for the "mitig fläck" "in the middle of the stain/point".
Can you tell me the maker or brand of target sights you have on the K31?
W+F K-diopter
@@BlokeontheRange
Thanks for the response. I have a K-dopter for my K31. The old D75 Gehmann aperture is frozen. I bought a new modern Gehmann aperture to replace it. I discovered the new aperture has a larger threaded shank. I am looking for an adapter to have the K-dopter accept the new Gehmann aperture but I don't know the thread size of the K-dopter.
Do you know where I can find Zimmermann's book? Can't find it anywhere on the internet.
Sorry, no idea. I should get a copy scanned one of these days.
@@BlokeontheRange Ok, thanks. Guess I'll have to go to Switzerland to get my hands on one then.
Is this just for the K31? I'm wondering about the 1911
It's just for the K31... The 1911 series might be sighted point of aim, or might be sighted roughly 1 mil high
I've been using the polymer clips for about a year and think they work quite well. Though I have to tell you, Swiss surplus Ammo is drying up here in the US and we are semi stuck w Prvi or Norma. I handload, but it's not my favorite pastime.
Care to ship a brother some patronen? :-)
On a related topic, is there a trick to the "clip flic?"
I realize this is years later, but can you make a PDF/scan those drop tables?
They're already out there online. Google is your friend :)
Where did you get the chargers? Please share
Bloke on the Range website, email?
Ebay
would I be able to find the book in English or German or is it pretty rare in either language
Bloke on the Range That sucks I just got a K31 myself and was wanting to see the tables.
Are G11 and K 11 sights set for 6 o'clock hold ??
Sometimes. It depends on the rifle. Some of mine are 6 o'clock, some not, and there's a table of drops in Zimmerman's 1940 book showing figures for both ways of sighting.
Hey bloke. Where do you go on the range? BTW it is so obvious you're a "Vereinsschiesser". As a former Swiss soldier, I like em naked and bare. You gotta do the best with what you have.
Well done... Recording private conversations with your K31?
Interesting stuff, innit. :-)
Wtf you doin in Boulder you Aussie? But seriously that picture looks just like my town.
Alps and Rockies
Where do you live and how many languages do you speak?
Switzerland. 5 including my mother tongue.
people. if you are owner of this rifle. can you check the name of the last owner? please
thanks
I am the owner of this rifle.
Bloke on the Range did you find the little piece of paper under the butt plate?
No. not this one.
Ok! Thanks so much! Greeting from italian alps
300 meter sighting makes shooting ciggeret out of somones mouth difficult😅
we were taught 6 o'clock aim with the SLR so not obscure the target
The book in PDF if anybody needs it: www.swisswaffen.com/sw-getimg.php?I=a5rjzu46ot8m&LP=NONE
Why isn't 3 shots a proper group? Blokesplain please.
3 shots (or 3 data points of anything) is insufficient for a statistically meaningful group. If you are trying to measure the accuracy capability of a rifle or find the precise correlation between point of aim vs point of impact, 3 shots can be misleading. It did illustrate what Bloke was trying to show perfectly fine though.
Mine shoots 6 inches high at 100
Apparently switchblades are illegal in Swizerland but sold in France. What is up?
What country do you live in germany, switzerland, or norway.
+Bloke on the Range got any sigs fire arms.
Innit
Lol
Fett schuss
Apparently switchblades are illegal in Swizerland but sold in France. What is up?
Sfer Tonoc but guns are illegal in France. Lol. Switchblades are illegal in my state aka the commie state called New Jersey.