Podcast #13 ~ The Surprising Truth About Plastic Pipe
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- Roger has a chat with Chris Wormald from Pipelife to look at the common misconceptions with plastic pipe.
Thanks to Pipelife for sponsoring this podcast.
Find out more about Pipelife's Easy-Lay PB Barrier Pipe, Qual-Pex Plumbing & Heating Pipe and other products at: www.pipelife.co.uk
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I’m not a plumber but this was a most informing video. Will help me a lot in the small plumbing jobs I do as a kitchen fitter and other jobs
Good questions, very useful insight... much appreciated
Many thanks for the very interesting video and in particular for info about the interchangeability of the big 4, sorry JG I wont just be using you but can now consider price and availability. Roger you are a star.
Cheers Roger, very good info, I know there’s a certain amount of supplier involvement but you ask enough questions and your experience actually doing the job reassures me that they’re not getting just a cheap ad. I’m about to start a full refurb and gonna give this a go, merry xmas.
O
Perceptive questions and remarks, honest answers. My kind of chat.
Very interesting and informative video. Thanks Roger.
We bought a house that had been vacant for around 10 years in a very rural area of central France, there was no plumbing in the property, I did all the plumbing myself in copper, that was 15 years ago, never had a leak. A friend also bought a property shortly after us, he got someone to install his plumbing, they used for the most part plastic pipe, in 13 years they have had around 6 incidences of rodent damage, that is plastic pipes shortfall, copper everytime for me !
Why do they continue to try and reinvent the wheel. I always think plastic is bodge job. I'm a plumber of over 40 years.
@@Martycycleman I must admit, I am glad it was 15 years ago, the cost of copper pipe now days is extortionate
Yeah, rodent damage is certainly a concern. We moved into our current home about 3 years ago and it’s very clear that the previous owners have had rodent issues in the loft space as there is shredded pipe lagging everywhere and a mysterious section of loft flooring which was cut out, presumably to fix nibbled plastic pipes.
Obviously the first line of defence is to stop the rodents getting in, and I am trying to seal up the fabric of the building as best I can. Next line of defence of to trap/kill the rodents and I have dispatched quite a few since we moved in. But after that I’m thinking of replacing the plastic pipe with copper at least for the under loft floor runs to avoid future upheaval.
I also just replaced a bunch of plastic pipe yesterday inside my external oil boiler while installing a magnetic filter (Fernox TF1) because the copper is much more rigid when supporting the load of the filter assembly. Unfortunately the job became a lot more complex because I dared to look at a 14 year old isolation valve which immediately started to leak profusely through the o-ring. 🙄
So, although I am open minded about plastic pipe, I still feel that copper has its place in certain circumstances. This video was very helpful though and educated me on the difference between PEX and PB amongst other things. I’m really glad to hear that it can be bought in straight lengths as well as in coils, because I’m a bit OCD and can’t handle wonky pipe runs! 😂
I've just plumb everything in copper. We gave a lot of rodent issues here
And when it's finished decades from now, it recycles so easily into a product as good as the original, it doesn't down cycle.
This is a serious problem up here in the Hebrides. However, the last time I did a websearch for 'plastic pipe' and 'rodents' actually very little came up. What did come up was at least one theory about why a rodent (and really we are talking about rats or larger rodents, here) would want to try to eat plastic pipe in the first place as there is (obvs) very little nutritional value in the plastic. One theory was that when rats are poisoned with certain types of poison, it induces extreme thirst as part of the poisoning process. The rats can hear the water in the pipes and chew them to get to it. This struck me as a bit fanciful and so I looked a bit harder.
Eventually, when I found the only actual pictures of rodent damage to plastic (mains - not waste) pipe I could find were of *fittings* being damaged rather than the PEX pipe itself (although maybe the softer(?) PB pipe?), the thought occurred that maybe this was because a fitting is often used at a point where pipe goes through a barrier of some sort, eg a masonry wall or a joist, and the rat, having had its progress blocked by the material adjacent to the fitting, will try chewing the fitting (the plastic of which is sometimes softer than the actual pipe) merely to gain access. If this is correct, then simply make a hole wide enough for the pipe *and* a rodent. It seems a bit daft but really the only alternative is to use copper.
I would be very interested to hear of any evidence anyone has relating to rodent damage to plastic pipe. I'm not interested in 'I knew a mate who...' stories; just first hand experience, ideally with photos and situation.
I'd also say that the liklihood of getting frost damage to copper is higher (over a particular installation's lifetime) than that of rodent damage. Besides which, I'd be trying *very* hard to get rid of rats anyway... mice, not so much.
One last point, I'd never use PB anyway but researching this comment I cam across this:
1. PEX is cross-linked while PB is not
2. PEX is able to tolerate much higher pressures than PB.
3. PEX is able to tolerate much higher and lower temperatures than PB.
4. PEX is more resistant to chlorine than PB.
5. PB is no longer acceptable in the US and Canada while PEX still is. (!!)
Another really interesting infolog mr Rodger . Your mention of colour made me think the liners maybe better a different bright colour to assist seeing and noting it in place . Certainly in my main trade as an electrical contractor the push fit connectors are colour coded .
As a DIY'er (cue the hate!) who is about to gut and rebuild and re-plumb my bathrooms, these videos are invaluable for learning, thanks. As some payback, I will be using Pipelife for the hidden runs and pre-wall plumbing.
Nothing wrong with that, 👍🏻
Power on my friend. 😊🌎✨
Don't be afraid to admit that you are DIY'er. With the quality of work provided by 'professionals' it's nothing wrong in trying to sort out those jobs yourself.
😂 A significant part of the work I have done since moving into this house has been fixing issues caused by poor workmanship of so-called professionals.
Very interesting. I felt like an early adopter of Hep2O back in 1994, and have mostly used JG since 2005 as it was more widely available, even though I preferred Some Hep2O design details. Hep2O definitely used to have both barrier and non-barrier pipe. Great to get info on manufacture from the horses mouth, but I don't think he really answered the 'what about barriers' question properly. Mus admit I'd never heard of pipelife before today. Very useful to know that the 15/16 thing for plumbing and UFH doesn't really have a good reason, although I do like the uponor pipe with the ali layer in because it stays where you put it.
have used pipe life for a while now. great product. pipe in pipe is coiled too tight which can be a pain when taking out of packaging.
Great video, highly informative, thanks!
Love it, generally I use plastic for all hidden pipe runs, in attics, under baths etc and copper for exposed.
I've watched some US plumbing vid's on UA-cam. They seem to have a problem with PB. It degrades internally, goes hard and flakes to the point of failure. Many comment that it's the high level of chlorine that they use in the States, plus I doubt their PB made to the same spec and standards as our. It doesn't look like it in the videos.
Some of their fitting look like hose barb fittings that go internally with a compressed ring on the outside. Similar to the fittings used on hose gas connections to propane or butane cylinders for camping or on a caravan for instance.
12:00 it's the same here in Belgium, no connections under the floor, and we don't use push fittings, only press...
I’ve used polypipe and hep2o, very good stuff, never had a problem (touch wood). Been using for about 10yrs or so.
I always used liners (preferably metal) never had a leak on any of the plastic pipes and fittings. Cant say that copper, compression or soldered are that reliable.
Biggest thing I've built is a Billy bookcase but I love a SkillBuilder video. Good work Roger!
I think I'll watch another...
lol
okay but a bit safe questions over the last 40 years since i first used plastic pipes when even the council building control had not seen it and were a bit un certain i have seen the products revised and improved yet can recall many instances where from the first house we did to houses built in the last ten to twelve years where the pipe had shrunk under/in concrete floors and when exposed you would never belief it had ever reached between the fittings it was once connected too or where it had popped out from its fitting i know some manufactures provide instructions / warning re correct fitting ie allowing for expansion and contraction and not hard fitting threw joists excetra yet still come across this as for the indication of piece of mind re freezing all i can say is bxxxxxks as for buildup or blockages we have re-piped countless installations that despite british/scottish gas and others best attempts to flush remained blocked especially the micro bore and following research on our call outs over the last four years to 2021 other than boiler specific failed plastic fittings where our largest number over five times as many as on copper pipework now some of this will be down to installers but this will be the same for copper or brass i employed and still employ from 10 to 20plus staff in my heating and plumbing business and am still hands on for part of the week and despite trying all pipe and fittings available as a company we still prefer and advocate copper as this gives us not only the lowest call outs for other installers or builders .works but also the least number on our own work by far. i do allow my boys to use plastic where appropriate that is only where all fittings are ready acessable ie kitchen refits and underfloor heating manifolds in above ground locations and on some new systems where the rads are also replaced and again all fittings easily reached and pipework done to manufactures current guidance finally as for cost although pipe may be cheaper we find we have more waste and the cost of fittings are more expensive thus for peace of mind, cost and reliability ill continue to offer copper to my customers i do enjoy your videos and subsribe aswell as forwarding on to others but feel this one dropped the ball on providing others with a inside outside apraisal of the product keep up the good work thanks
Thanks Roger, the 2 Pipelife videos have been a great insight. Usually use JG but have used a few 3m lengths of Pipelife recently and for some reason thought they were inferior (maybe because I hadnt spent enough!). Really enjoyed the videos and bought a roll of EasyLay this week from my usual merchant. It's so much nicer to work with and half the price. Ill be using EasyLay from now on, pipe colour doesn't bother me one bit! Don't feel sorry for JG though I still like their fittings (perhaps until your next video....) 😂
Thanks again
I use JG Speedfit as well. They have never made the pipe so you will have to John guess where it comes from.
Very interesting. Thank you .
What you mentioned at 12:00 "pipe in pipe" is what i did in my house, it was to make it easier to lay or replace (plus mouse proof with metal conduit). I though i was so smart for "inventing" it.
Another very interesting conversation with someone who knows exactly what he is talking about, and very reassuring,i have recently had installed a new boiler and some extra rads,i have to admit when he connected to the rising mains i was skeptical, But to be fair no probs as yet, My concern was the way some plumbers have just thrown it in, with not a clip in sight anywhere and it just looks wrong all through the cupboards in the loft conversion. When I questioned him he says that alright mate, it is not a.prob.you don,t need them like copper,.To me it was just untidy,
Yes they should clip it.
Plastic pipe is really nice to work with, but my first experience with it (Pushfit) I had a faulty L bend that would shoot off every time water was turned on at the mains. Couldn't see anything wrong with the part, but swapping it out sorted it. The odds of finding a faulty part on my first go was disconcerting. I've heard tales of others popping off in the middle of the night with people waking up to flooded houses. May be a water pressure problem exposing tiny faults in the manufacture, not sure.
I used Acorn (the forerunner of Hep2o) back in the mid 1980s. They are brown instead of grey but still as good as new. Fittings can be swapped about though I do prefer the metal backing sleeves. They are slimmer than the plastic versions.
I presume for hot and cold water feeds rather than central heating? From what I know the early stuff didn't have the oxygen barrier and caused major corrosion problems, especially in the US.
Love the idea of conduit pipes.
Lived in Cork for almost 5 years, loved it, great place and great people. They told me that there were only two types of people in the world, those who were born in Cork and those who wished they were born in cork.😂
i use super seal liners, and collets. i will mostly use copper near boilers, part of regs, and unvented, or exposed to human contact. plastic under neath floor is ok, providing no rodent problems. barrier pipe a must for heating systems.
I used to use Speedfit, and never had any problems. Handy in new houses where you don't get nails through the pipe
when the floors are going down. You also don't get bursts if it freezes.
I used plastic Hep2o 25 years ago and it is still good as new.
I've found straightening coiled pipe a bit difficult. It does also sag when hot water goes through. Foam insulation helps against this. My mate has plastic under the bedroom floor and a mouse got in and chewed a hole in it causing a leak! The only disadvantage I can see!
I too had a night mare trying to run a length of pipe off a coil
It just wanted to stay coiled
Quality plastics as it was know before pipe life too it over had the kite mark since early 80s love seeing all the changes since then
White pipe plumber here in Newcastle. Cheers Roger!! Enjoyed this insight.
Grey in Cornwall and Devon.
I'm a DIYer and I've been using this stuff for years - 4 houses now. I've always bought based on price. Occasionally the grey stuff comes in cheaper (no idea why - special offers I guess). Plenty runs with a combination plus the visible stuff in copper. As the man said, it's all 15mm and made to the same standard.
Planning to start my first house from scratch later this year. The pros will be in when needed but pipes are something I'll do myself. I'll definitely be using pipe in pipe and will use conduit for all the cabling too. One of my old places had steel conduit (the steel was the Earth....) and it was a doddle to rewire - didn't even pick up the chisel.
Just found this, great video. Must one silly question: I only ever bought one coil of JG and I did use it, but what is the best way to straighten it. Also some discussion of pipe support requirements C's copper would be good. I'm ok with drilling holes, but not a fan of pipe clips where the screw is hidden (Ok you can chop up a double). On copper use trad munsens, but fiddly. Video on pipe support?
Excellent. Thank you
Currently installing a pipe in pipe system, amazing how few videos on here there are about it.
Hi Roger, I looked at this for plastic waste not replacement copper, but have you done an analysis of waste pipe types? I say this because we had a string of failures where hot water (not steam) was being discharged into plastic waste and the fittings cracked and sheared. There are different temperature ratings for wastes and we were caught out by one type rated to 76°C whereas two others were rated to 96°C. We had to replace the complete 20m run with one of the higher rated material. A pain!
I've just come across your channel having been led down the rabbit hole of mould in homes I rent a mouldy one bed place I am a 68yr old retired City and Guild motor mech that has watched over the years as material quality has dropped like a stone since the Chinese were bought in as material suppliers my hot water source is a immersion tank I replace the element as needed its easier than waiting for the maintenance guy over the 12yrs I've lived here it is getting the point of every yr that I replace an element all marked made in China
Great info for a DIYer
Roger which plastic pipe and fittings would you recommend the best one for long term? Polypipe?
Thanks for interesting video. I am just a DIY plumber, so the material costs are not a big concern. I was a fan of plastic pipe and it has some advantages. However, now reluctant to use plastic because of so many pro guys warning me about rodents munching on it.
Get rid of the rodents, they should not be inside the house and it is possible to block their path
As a DIY plumber I have always been concerned at how plastic pipe would age, especially if heat cycled. Anyone who has worked on plastic automotive fittings will probably understand although I suspect an automotive environment accelerates ageing effects. If you are laying pipes in inaccessible places, the last thing you want is to have to move furniture, lift floorboards to replace brittle plastic pipe.
brittle plastic pipe was very much a problem back in the 1960's but the pex and pb of today is very different. I am not sure it could ever go brittle but if it did we would be long gone.
One of the advantages of pex is that your don't have to open a wall to get to it. If you can get to each end, you can fish a new section in using the old section to pull it. That being said, other than outside irrigation systems that weren't winterized, I've never seen any that needed replacing after decades of use.
It’s not the plastic pipes I’m concerned about it’s the rubber seals , yes they are EPDM rubber
But rubber has a lifespan
And be it 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 years time , all these millions and millions of rubber seals WILL perish and dry out and all these houses built in the last 20 years will have leaky plumbing all over , no question about it
@@boyasaka At the same time, copper pipes will develop pinhole leaks. And both types will have a rubber gasket somewhere in the system.
That being said, I saw a lot of ruptured copper pipes the last deep freeze, but no pex failures.
@@wisenber interesting
My house is 75 years old
And I fully refurbished it when I bought it 20 years ago
apart from the few mods I did when refitted bathroom and kitchen the majority of the pipe in the house is original , all copper with soldered joints
And never had a leak yet
There is houses well over 100 years old with copper pipes and still sound . I can’t imagine these rubber seals inside every single joint in a new build will last 70 years
Will they last 40
Yes I dare say quiet possibly , but they won’t last the lifespan of a house imo
I have plastic pipes that seemed to be glued or bonded together somehow, what brand is that?
Can i cut/join using Pipe Life or John Guest push fittings?
So it's okay to use Hep2o inserts and fittings in/on Pipelife if they're "exactly the same pipe" ???
Are Pipelife still making other brands piping or have they gone elsewhere?
Used Hep for years without issue.
Have met a few dim plumbers who wouldn't use inserts though! Maybe so they can then slate plastic!
What do we think to buteline pipe had a look at a few shows looks good and fittings look really robust with no o rings ? Any one got any input on it ?
The plumber who did alterations in the loft of this house before I bought it used plastic - it's fast easy and you can run away with your quick dollar. Twice in two years i've had rodent induced leaks and I've ripped it all out and replaced with copper. In the other regulated industry's Buna N nitrile O-rings like those used in push fit have a shelf life of 5 years and a working life of 10 for good reason - they go hard and leak. Plastic might be fine for your new build cardboard box in town but I'd never use it in a rural environment or on quality property expected to last. Copper for me - and its 100% recyclable.
I like it but the fittings are bulky and expensive. No doubt it has its place in the industry
Great video. Could you provide some pipe in pipe links please? Looking around but pretty sparse real info
Cheers for the input..I have been bannging on about Hep20 being the best for 25yrs but to me its still a market leader in quality especially the fittings
I totally agree
Hep2O don't make a 22 to 15 reducing elbow, you have plug a 15mm adaptor into a 22mm elbow, an ugly bodge and a massive oversight in my opinion. John Guest make a dedicated reducing elbow which is not only cheaper but smaller and neater. This, together with the tool-less disconnection, is why I opted to go with JG Speedfit.
Hi Roger, one thing no one has mentioned is the reduced internal diameter of plastic pipe compared to copper. On long runs this can significant. After what length of 15mm would you size up to 22?
How would the length make a difference? Surely pressure is the important factor here?
Hi Acid, length is relevant to the pressure drop along the pipe at any given rate of flow. There are tables which deal with this. The longer the run the greater the pressure drop and thus reduction in the rate of flow for any given static pressure. Up size and the flow will improve. As the ID of copper pipe is larger than plastic due to the thicker wall of plastic pipe this is relevant to the design of a plumbing or heating system.
Hi roger, another great source of information
If you are still answering questions on Plastic pipe, I heard mention in the Video that when Copper pipe freezes it will expand and not return to a normal size like Plastic pipe and you went on to say that frozen copper pipe was almost impossible to get a fitting on after expansion so What about when you Freeze a pipe to change a faulty fitting
Would you expect to have a problem putting a new fitting on the same pipe or am i confusing this situation with different levels of freezing
Hope you can clear this up for me please
When a pipe burst due to freezing it is the pressure between 2 plugs of ice in the pipe the pressure builds between the 2 points ,, generally when using pipe freezing equipment it is at 1 point so no trapped water to expand with no where to go expands into the remaining pipework.
I tried the pipe life and the internal diameter is slightly wider than the JG pipe so when I use JG pipe fittings they are quite loose which is a bit of a concern to me. You get no leaks but not sure what will happen in 10 years time!
I wouldn't use plastic pipe after seeing the leaks my dad had in his old house because of mouse damage and subsequent water leaks in hard to reach places and secondly because you can't have the water too hot, because the pipes can't take high temperatures and joints fail (particularly on vertical runs) if you have a sticking thermostat etc. Even plastic overflow pipes going through external walls are short term rubbish, as the sun rots off the ends outside, so that overflow water runs down your wall and even under any external rendering inside the wall itself! I say ban the damn stuff. The only place for plastic pipes (eg alkathene) is underground to your main stopcock only.
50 year pipe life ... but what's the life of the fittings, particularly the O-rings?
Weakest link in the chain, etc.
I have had some in service for over 25 years but, oddly, after that time they are a pig to get off the pipe. That 'O' ring seems to dry out and grab the pipe but it doesn't show any signs of deterioration. I think we need to stop worrying about them. Nothing lasts forever.
@@SkillBuilder O rings are generally EDPM. They say an an EDPM roof (which is usually open to UV degradation) has a lifetime of 50 years or more. Orings aren't susceptible to UV degradation. Also the thermal properties of plastic pipe compared to copper were not mentioned..
You mentioned plumber asking for barrier pipe ,that's because there was a none barrier pipe that pulls air in through the pipe that kills off radiators .
It's not that we want pex ,some of use call it double barrier as well,they just mean barrier to none barrier.
Great insight Roger.. glad I watched the video, especially at the end regarding UV protection. I have a solar water heater and the plastic pipes feeding it are exposed so they will be getting wrapped 👍
Plastic pipe has its place. Copper for me is so much better. How many people bracket plastic pipe property? The amount of jobs I go to and the plastic pipe is lashed in... Not a clip in sight. On larger jobs that pipe sags and creates issues with air and circulation after time. The last resort for me is plastic pipe. Crimped copper should be pushed more in new builds instead of plastic... The only reason plastic is used in new builds is to make sure costs are kept down so the places can be built for a lot cheaper. Like most new builds. Not built to last.
I've removed a ZIP chill tap that needs to be reinstalled, it has 6mm plastic pipe and fittings but no inserts were used on the original install. So my question is do I need 6mm pipe inserts when I refit the chiller? I've been told that 6mm pipe does not need inserts.
That is correct. The pipe is so small and rigid that the walls won't distort.
@@SkillBuilder Thank you for the speedy reply! :)
Does the plastic contain BPA (Bisphenol A) an endocrine disruptor ?
@R-77 Sad but very true
I bought some Pipelife pipe on the strength of this video, but had to buy it from an online retailer. It's significantly cheaper than JG Speedfit or Hep2O but for some strange reason unavailable in Screwfix, Toolstation or Wickes.
I buy it from Selco
Plastic pipe, such as manufactured here, is compatible with most heating system inhibitors. Always check with the manufacturers if you're not sure.
I know a plumber who in an emergency replaced his van's tailpipe with plastic pipe and it has been in use for over 10 years.
I presume theres no MOT on His Van???
I live in a rural area where rodent infestations are quite common. I would be interested if anyone has data on the resistance of plastic pipe to rodent damage, particularly pipe runs behind walls or under floors.
Just getting a new house built. My Plumber insisted on installing copper pipes for interior house runs, as the dry weather here in Australia had rats gnawing through poly-pipes.
I was surprised, although I have exposed poly-pipe running barely buried around the outside of buildings for years with no damage.
@@dnomyarnostaw Rats probably will not gnaw through a plastic pipe outside, there are so many more attractive things outside for them to have a go at. One reason they gnaw pipes and cables is to enlarge holes. By their nature pipes and cables need holes and from the rodents perspective it is easier to gnaw on them than the building fabric.
I understand that another issue is oxygen permeability which is an issue with hybrid hydronic UFH systems which are combined with steel radiators, in such cases the plastic pipe should have an integrated oxygen barrier like pax-al-pex?
Most pex pipe on sale today has an oxygen diffusion barried
You have to mark the video in the settings that it's sponsored as well. Or at least contains paid promotion. Otherwise you could have your monitisation taken away which none of us would want.
Thank you. We will go back over the videos and check we are complying.
Cooper pipe can fail in areas of soft ( acidic ) water, that is the reason water companies have to supply water with PH between 6.5 and 8.5. Push fittings have been used in industry ( John Guest etc. ) for a long time and are very reliable.
Hi Roger, what do you reckon mate? Recently moved into property which is a traditional boiler system with vented tank. Has mixer taps on bath with a pull for shower attachment. Taps work fine mixing water but when you change to shower it only gives cold. If you turn off cold tap then you get hot water but then turn the cold back on then the shower attachment goes to cold only. Any ideas? Thanks Sam
I think you may find that the bath cold is coming from the mains. The difference in the pressure between hot and cold means that the cold is holding the hot back when the water is coming through the shower hose. Those taps need equal pressure so the only way to improve it is to run a cold down from the tank. Plastic pipe and pushfits is the quickest way.
Skill Builder You’re a star thank you. Thought it was something to do with pressure but wasn’t sure as the taps work fine. It’s only the shower attachment. We have an en-suite thermostatic shower close by so may be able to splice into that feed?
I wonder is this type of plastic suitable for a hot water circulation system at temperatures of 60 degrees celsius 24/7? most plastics cant handle it and the pipe will get brittle in a few years
It can be used on heating systems that run at 80 deg cent and it shows no signs of becoming brittle. I have used it for over 20 years in these situations and it holds up well. I really don't think there are service issue with it, most plumbers use it with confidence these days. I was installing it yesterday on a job I thought was going to take me two days and I finished in a day with zero leaks so I am more than happy with that.
I’m all up for the British kite mark but maybe Roger and team can do a video on what’s involved in getting one. How does it compare to Far East (say chinese) or American pipes?
There are chinese companies that supply pipes that work up to British standards but don’t pay for the kite mark. And they’re very competitively priced.
Are Uk companies using such trade standards more for marketing profit mark ups or for genuine technical superiority?
The B.S pipe isn't expensive. The problem witch Chinese is that when things go wrong it is very hard to get them to pay up. When you use a European company that has a proper insurance backed gurantee it is a lot easier to deal with any claims. If you are ever in that situation where one of your installations has flooded a block of flats through no fault of yours it is a massive relief when the company steps up and says "This is our fault here is a cheque". It has happened to me and I now look at where stuff comes from.
Wall metal detectors won’t pick up the piping. Saw I guy drill a hole straight through a plastic pipe after checking.
I worked on a caravan park 25 years ago, with static caravans. All the new caravans had plastic hep pipe. The advantages were for us that in the winter if it froze the only thing that would fail were the fittings, which we could replaces in seconds. Plus to winterise a caravan we used to get underneath and undo all the fittings then in the spring simply tighten them up again. Another advantage is almost any muppet can fit it. The main disadvantage really is that it is hard to detect within a wall etc prior to drilling. It's just a matter of time before the eco soap dodgers hold protests on building site entrances to prevent being used.😂
I only use plastic pipes for cold and hot water applications. But central heating runs, I only use copper. I have read that it won't stand up to high pressure and temperature in central heating system.
Your unvented central heating system is protected by an EPV that is probably set to a lower temperature than your mains water. And with immersion heaters it's not unknown for hot water to the temperature regulator to be hotter than a central heating system.
But actually the fact that plastic softens and expands is why it outlives copper. That EPV fails and you get a large overpressure - the copper pipe will eventually burst whereas the plastic will balloon and then return to size when the system has cooled. We don't do it because the manufacturers don't allow it, but plastic pipes and brass compression fittings would outlive copper under high temperature overpressure conditions such as an immersion heater runaway.
Although I'm confident all these systems are reliable in the conditions for which they are designed, vulnerability to rodent attack IS a material difference to copper. Quite rare it seems, but it happens. I have had a JG elbow fitting chewed through by mice (just saved the ceiling in time). This was a retrofit in a 100yr old house. Although JG cover themselves by stating pipe should be laid in rodent proof conduit (?), that would (for other than new-build) eliminate the advantages to a builder of speed (and in reality not having to employ a qualified plumber at all) by using plastic. I will ultimately swap out all the plastic for copper, as it is not practical or desirable completely seal an Edwardian cottage with a cavity brick wall to a degree that would 100% prevent mice ever getting in.
Mice are just as capable of chewing through copper as they are plastic
i had plastic pipe put in loft space and mice chewed holes in it after a few months.. water soaked through ceiling everywhere, i got plumber to replace with copper which he should have done in the first place and he didnt charge. cheap skate way of doing plumbing .. modern way of doing things is not always right.. mice can chew through electric cables and this has been known for years so why on earth put plastic water pipes in a loft?
@@sumnewguy youve got to be joking. lol
Isnt micro-plastic pollution a concern with plastic pipes for drinking water long term?
they use it a lot in oz - 20 years ago - as no leaks
We use MLCP. Best of both worlds.
The point about rodent damage is very valid however I've worked in a lot of old cottages and some of them even though they have had thatched roofs at 1 time after tile there is so much combustible material floors and if they're perfect have to do some pipework in the loft it's swings it in favour of plastic I know there are copper crimp fittings now I've retired the elephant in the room with copper is that they have been allowed to reduce the wall thickness and I just don't think it's as durable as plastic you've been in the trade a long long time you remember when copper was short copper was imported that stuff pin hole after a few years can't be any of it left now you young guys be very careful to flats off after soldering
The question I want sorted is why can't I straighten a piece of a roll of plastic pipe!!??
Tell people about test pressures for the Warranties
Hi Roger....is rodent attack a potential problem with plastic plumbing?
yes it can be. I have fitted a lot of it and, so far, it has not happened. You could also say that mice and rats gnawing through cables is a problem.
Had an extension built and plumber put plastic pipe in for the radiators and buried it and the joints in the screed. After floor was put down a joint leaked and the floor and screed had to be dug up to fix the joint. Bad practice.
Problems in the States with the gray pipe
Polybutylene (PB) pipe is a gray plastic tubing that was commonly used as water-supply plumbing pipe in the years between 1978 and 1995, at which time it was discontinued due to reports of pipes rupturing and causing water damage.
If it is so good why can you not connect straight to a boiler as you need 1 metre of copper from the connection first
This is a boiler manufacturer requirement. The pipes connect and perform no problem.
It’s for extreme heat.
Chemical flush?
The reason why some underfloor heating is 16mm european size its likely alpex pipe which is best pipe. It has bending memory which is so much better for laying underfloor heating and being 100% air tight best for heating systems.
and it can be used for
Even the non aluminium is 16mm because it just is
@@SkillBuilder True I suppose, I personally wouldnt fit anything but Alpex in underfloor heating. The amount of pipe going down in ufh it needs to be 100% air tight and alpex offers that. Frankishe do a alpex pipe for underfloor heating which is more flexible than regular alpex. Nice thing about it you can still use the pipe for water hot cold supply. Who doesnt like a massive coil staying like a nice coil once you unband it insteading of it spring open
There where reason why Copper was used, one of them it has natural anti algae anti bacteria properties, wouldn't use plastic on cold water pipes.
Never heard of a "liner" for plastic compression fitting in Australia. I would love to see one used, and the differences explained.
They mean 'inserts' at the pipe ends to reinforce the pipe/fitting interface.
images.app.goo.gl/3Awb4bp27FbhQDU56
i wish you'd asked about rodent attack in lofts, it's my biggest concern.
Music to my ears I have never understood why so many plumbers use fittings in closed areas pipe is the securest way for no leaks two fittings manifold and outlet no brainer
Go grey gracefully Rodger, no dye!
What are you talking about?
PB pipe is no longer allowed in the US due to widespread failures. What makes this different?
I have asked this question and it seems that nobody will answer. They say there are no failures of PB pipe in the U.K or Europe and I think that is true because they would be all over UA-cam if this stuff was failing. Undoubtedly the crimp fittings they used in the USA were rubbish and the chlorine attacked them. There is also some suggestion that the high concentration of chlorine in American water is a contributing factor. It seems that there are no problems with PEX but we need more information on this.
There is no ban on PB in the US, but piping association decided after the class action law suit not to sell it anymore. Kinda the same thing really I guess, but technically there is no ban on it.
@@SkillBuilder From what I read, the major issue in the US was the use of acetall resin fittings being used with pb pipe. I remember seeing loads of pb piped properties and for a while people wouldn't touch them. And for good reason, I saw quite a few basement floods that required the slab to be jack hammered to replace the main lines of PB water systems.
I'm not sure what the deal is in Australia but I have one property that way too frequently has had PB pipe leaks, not in the fittings at all but when the pipe is dug up it's just weak and worn. Could be the extreme temps in northern qld. I don't know but a main line bursting 3 times over a couple of years for a house that is only 20 years old doesn't seem right. Australia seems to often drag its arse on class action litigation, so maybe it's ..in the pipeline so to speak. :)
What is Pex-al-pex? Is that the barrier pipe?
alpex has an aluminium layer which helps it lay flat which makes it good for underfloor heating. There are so many names and types now.
I'll be going with copper for drinking water anyway but plastic is grand for other stuff.
Seemed to dodge the question ‘How comes they can sell it so much cheaper?’
They are working on lower profit margins and hoping the volume will compensate. He didn't want to say that the other sellers are greedy.
This might sound a bit old fashioned, but i always use copper. I find that plastic expands a lot when its hot, noisy under floor when expanding, fittings are very bulky, and its difficult to make it look neat. Copper is ridgid, looks great when used with unistrut and rubber lined clips. I also know that rodents can chew through plastic pipe in voids. Just my opinion..... i'm sure Pipelife is a great company and product, but, just not for me.
That is fine, each to his own but pipe in pipe is the way to go with all joints above the floor
off gassing???
I do insurance call outs in Spain, i would never use thermoplastics in my house,id use copper whatever it costs
I Love that when 2 men meet, first thing is make a Brew, Trow men
❤
I like Roger, but as a spark there's only so much I can listen to plumbers 🤔🤣
Typical sparky elitist. lol
I like Casper Me, but as a man with a brain there's only so much I can listen to sparkies.
I can't disagree with the idea of using a fitting liner in *every* situation enough. I've been using *PEX* for more than 20 years and only use liners where it's sensible to do so and I haven't had any issues with leaks. I would say that I have never used PB pipe for this very reason as it is *a lot* less rigid than PEX. I'd obviously use a liner when interfacing with a compression fitting or joints close to boilers etc where the pipe is likely to be operating near its max temperature specs and therefore softer. But the main reason I don't use liners every time is (with my cynic's hat very firmly on) that charging 50p for something that must cost 1p or less to make, is taking seriously the mickey!
The only way you'll take my solder and torch is from my cold dead hands.😀
Good for you sir, I also love my soldering on copper but I really don't want to thread short lengths of copper through joists. Notching joists is no longer acceptable especially with TGI joists so refusing to change to plastic is exactly the same as those old plumbers who used to use barrel and lead tails, and looked upon copper as the devil's work.
@@SkillBuilder fully in agreement there Roger. I'm restoring a listed building where all services are required to be surface mounted (it's an old RAF Control Tower).
I see it as a mission to follow the traditional methods previously used before the metal thieves nicked it all prior to our purchase.😡
Check us out on FB, look for West Raynham Control Tower.
Love the channel, it's taught us everything we need to learn.
Robin's carpentry lessons are first class.👍